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It's about time Britain started phasing out diesel under wires, the slow pace of electrification is bad enough but the fact that there's still consistent diesel-only operation on large stretches of electrified track really feels like a policy failure of some kind.
@@Rail_Focus Part of the problem may be the running costs w.r.t the unit prices per kWh by Network Rail compared with the price of diesel fuel etc, for the time being. The Rail Operations Group will do the sums on that basis.
@@johnkeepin7527 true, but I think unit rates have become a little more affordable now. It's bonkers that running diesel locos was considerably cheaper than electric
One of the nice things up here in Scotland is the rolling programme of electrification which has helped to lower the cost per mile of electrification. Such a shame Tory ministers have been doing a stop start progress for it which has massively increased the costs.
Would love to see these on the West of England line. Loco haulage would vastly improve the passenger comfort and a good chunk is on third rail anyway (if the loco can be adapted for that).
It looks like a very expensive track basher. The West of England line should be electrified to Salisbury and operated on the same principle as the Weymouth line used to be. Then use class 37 in push pull mode to Exeter. A small build of new class 37 would be more to the point, or oil burning class 5 to the LMS design or LNER B1 which were simple and very cheap to build. The railways should stop shelling out vast amounts on unnecessarily high tech kit.
Someone said they'd struggle to pull a rake of mk4s over the Marches. But other than that I can't see much benefit. I think TfW will be keen to keep the 67s pn, given the time and effort they've invested in getting them to talk reliably to the Mk4s 😅
It's extremely difficult to tell how these will perform away from the wires from just the spec sheet. It's going to be very dependent on the trip power management software across the route, so I'd guess there will be a big learning curve for everyone to optimise and balance overall running times and optimal battery charge/ discharge. While class 66 has a lot of initial tractive effort, further up the speed curve it falls off a lot, so it will be interesting to see what the real world performance is like - away from the wires on flatter routes hauling intermodal the performance gap might be surprisingly small - with the ability to obtain better paths on more heavily contested electrified routes too, time and iterations of learning will tell.
That's a good question. I think there are still benefits on non electrified main lines such as the Chiltern Mainline or Marches. Not having heavy diesel engines under the carriages makes them quieter and typically makes for a more comfortable ride. There may also be cost savings just having to lease a single loco per set, rather than a DMU with multiple engines.
I do wonder if the class 93 will struggle to find a niche, like the class 67 did. I suspect a lot of what they will haul is either passenger services, like the sleeper, or replacing the class 90 by offering more flexibility. They really don't quite fit the same role as the class 66; that will be the class 99 ordered by GBRf, which I'm looking forward to more to see how well it does
The Class 99 will be quite a bit more powerful in diesel mode, but I would've thought it will still struggle to pull anything other than intermodal consists in diesel mode. Could really do with a freight company who is willing to invest in 100mph capable intermodal wagons for use on the WCML or ECML, then the 93 would really prove its worth.
@@Rail_Focus The highest speed intermodal wagons in Europe are the relatively new French ones, and those are only certified for 140 kph / 87 mph. I'm not sure what the maximum speed for American intermodal wagons is, but I would be very surprised if it's above 90 mph. 80 mph is a good general max speed for freight efficiency, I doubt there will be any mass adoption of wagons permitting speeds significantly higher than that.
Maybe TPE could buy some and use them in place of their class 68s. They could use the batteries in stations and sidings at night so as to reduce noise levels like those lovely sounding 68s.
@@Rail_Focus Yeah, when I said, "in place of" I suppose I should have said "in place of the replacements for class 68s" as I understand their 68s are already in storage. I also understand this was because they were too noisy for locals near termini, though several reasons were given by online commentators for their being taken out of service.
@@SirKenchalot The class 68s were returned to the ROSCO and have been put into freight service from what I've heard. The Mk 5 fleet is still in storage, but plenty of operators have been eyeing them
Unfortunately due to the routes the Class 67s work then there wouldn't be much benefit, save for between Manchester and Crewe. TfW would be better off with cl68s for the time being.
@Rail_Focus class 93 hasn't got enough power on diesel to haul mk4s up the marches with all the ets requirements. It's likely they'd order class 99s instead same with GWR
@polishstick0609 possibly, but the Mk5 are going to Chiltern, which isn't electrified. They only really make sense for short stints on non electrified lines.
These engines can be used in pairs...sufficient power for heavier trains .. Many thanks for your video from Germany ! By the way, do you know,there is a six axeled version of Eurodual in development for UK ??
As much as I think it's incredibly good that we have more locomotives capable of both electric and diesel traction, I think they missed a trick the Class 93 not being quad mode and being able to draw off the 750V DC third rail in the southern region like the Class 92s can.
Fine looking loco and great sounding spec. However, what % of it is British built ? We really must start making our own motive power and rolling stock again.
If Alstom offered a similar product then I'm sure freight companies would buy it. But it seems only Stadler is offering to build bespoke dual mode locos to a UK loading gauge
Only nationaIisation can guarantee nationaI production. The ruIing class, in charge of production, are inherently and definitionally international in both character and relations.
"Nationalisation" wouldn't have an impact on who manufactures the trains. Even under Labour ROSCOs would continue to own rolling stock and there's no way any Government would bring back nationalised factories.
@@Rail_Focus That's unfair. I didn't say "rail nationalisation" or "Labour" once, did I? I don't want to come off as rude, but it looks like you've put words in my mouth. By "any government", what you really should say "any _current_ government." One of a new type that isn't offered to us because it threatens bǐIIǐônǎîrěs. It's wise to widen your perspectives to include possibilities outside of our corrupt pǎrlǐǎměnt.
I suspect it take over from the 37,47.etc in being rescue locos and tugs for units going to repair or scrap , if anyone starts parcals logistic sirvices this would be Ideal loco farst light wight trains with battary or desil for shunting at trerninals etc........ I dout ROG spent/borrowed cash with no use in mind .....
Lol, the class 66 definitely aren't leaving. The freight operators have been struggling to find more, and that's a major part of why these new locos are appearing. The 93s are more likely to replace things like the class 47 or 90.
A tall order 1200bhp diesel to handle 1600 ton freight with battery back up at total 1700bhp! I cant see them on freight with all that work covered by 66s 70s ? An order of 10 so far !
I did think that, but that's what the ROG rep told me. The engines and batteries should only be used for the very last few miles, so there maybe some WCML intermodal flows which they could be used for.
Its adding to the frame weight of the locomotive in other modes and to suggest batteries are useful to pull a 2000 tonne train any great distance is ludicrous, why bother😂
@@beau5757 It would be more than that; it should be able to drag the whole train out of the way. It should be able to match the output of the diesel engine for a very short period of time.
This looks good but is exactly wrong. A very expensive bit of kit that looks like it is brutal on the track - tiny wheels and a 21 ton axle load. Freight trains should not be traveling at high speeds. It wastes energy and damages the track - the modern container carriers with small wheels are track bashers, and modern passenger trains are also destructive. It is becoming a real problem. Electricity supplies will have to be enhanced to get rid of diesel running under the wires, and overall thermodynamic efficiency goes down. The 9F freight locomotive is as powerful when using coal and about 20% more powerful when running on diesel fuel. Probably costs 20% of this locomotive initially and much the same to run.
Not all container wagons have small wheels, just those typically used on gauge constrained routes. There are wagons available which are a lot more gentle on the rails and intermodal trains are really not that heavy.
@@Rail_Focus You can hear how much damage these trains are doing by the roaring noise they make. You can hear it on the video at 1:25 and 2:53 . Nasty flats as well giving the track a hammering. No wonder the track is so rough.
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I think the Class 93 looks very smart and I like that shade of green. It sounds quite mighty as well! A nice addition to the UK main line.
It's about time Britain started phasing out diesel under wires, the slow pace of electrification is bad enough but the fact that there's still consistent diesel-only operation on large stretches of electrified track really feels like a policy failure of some kind.
100%. It's surprising how many WCML intermodal trains are hauled by 66s or 68s.
@@Rail_Focus Part of the problem may be the running costs w.r.t the unit prices per kWh by Network Rail compared with the price of diesel fuel etc, for the time being. The Rail Operations Group will do the sums on that basis.
@@johnkeepin7527 true, but I think unit rates have become a little more affordable now. It's bonkers that running diesel locos was considerably cheaper than electric
One of the nice things up here in Scotland is the rolling programme of electrification which has helped to lower the cost per mile of electrification. Such a shame Tory ministers have been doing a stop start progress for it which has massively increased the costs.
@@Rail_Focus Maybe just my silly opinion but I think 25Kv should be heavily subsidised for freight and passenger companies.
Great informative video. One of the plans is for the Class 93s could operate passenger trains between London Euston and Stirling for Grand Union.
Thanks Simon. And thanks again for the clips 🙂
Unlikely now due to lack of mk4s available
@@anthonypowell5665 the lots MK v sitting about ?
Chiltern are under pressure to take on the MkVs
I could also see these on the Highland and Lowland sleeper given that currently they need to switch engines.
YAY! Finally UA-cam shows me you video on the actual day it was published!
Woop woop 😁
Would love to see these on the West of England line. Loco haulage would vastly improve the passenger comfort and a good chunk is on third rail anyway (if the loco can be adapted for that).
It looks like a very expensive track basher. The West of England line should be electrified to Salisbury and operated on the same principle as the Weymouth line used to be.
Then use class 37 in push pull mode to Exeter. A small build of new class 37 would be more to the point, or oil burning class 5 to the LMS design or LNER B1 which were simple and very cheap to build.
The railways should stop shelling out vast amounts on unnecessarily high tech kit.
I also haven't seen an update of the classes 73 and 74 Locomotives which Run on both Diesel and 3rd Rail Electrifie😅d lines.
I wonder if they could take over from the 67's on the TfW services? Start and end under wires with batteries and diesel for the rest of the journey.
Someone said they'd struggle to pull a rake of mk4s over the Marches. But other than that I can't see much benefit.
I think TfW will be keen to keep the 67s pn, given the time and effort they've invested in getting them to talk reliably to the Mk4s 😅
It's extremely difficult to tell how these will perform away from the wires from just the spec sheet.
It's going to be very dependent on the trip power management software across the route, so I'd guess there will be a big learning curve for everyone to optimise and balance overall running times and optimal battery charge/ discharge.
While class 66 has a lot of initial tractive effort, further up the speed curve it falls off a lot, so it will be interesting to see what the real world performance is like - away from the wires on flatter routes hauling intermodal the performance gap might be surprisingly small - with the ability to obtain better paths on more heavily contested electrified routes too, time and iterations of learning will tell.
well presented video!
Thank you 🙂
I think these are an excellent idea. I wonder if they could be used by the Caledonian sleeper in the longer term as it would save a change of loco?
Not sure, but Simon did say they may be used for the new Euston to Stirling Grand Union service
@@Rail_FocusIn today’s world what if any advantages do loco hauled trains have?
That's a good question. I think there are still benefits on non electrified main lines such as the Chiltern Mainline or Marches. Not having heavy diesel engines under the carriages makes them quieter and typically makes for a more comfortable ride. There may also be cost savings just having to lease a single loco per set, rather than a DMU with multiple engines.
I do wonder if the class 93 will struggle to find a niche, like the class 67 did. I suspect a lot of what they will haul is either passenger services, like the sleeper, or replacing the class 90 by offering more flexibility. They really don't quite fit the same role as the class 66; that will be the class 99 ordered by GBRf, which I'm looking forward to more to see how well it does
The Class 99 will be quite a bit more powerful in diesel mode, but I would've thought it will still struggle to pull anything other than intermodal consists in diesel mode.
Could really do with a freight company who is willing to invest in 100mph capable intermodal wagons for use on the WCML or ECML, then the 93 would really prove its worth.
@@Rail_Focus The highest speed intermodal wagons in Europe are the relatively new French ones, and those are only certified for 140 kph / 87 mph. I'm not sure what the maximum speed for American intermodal wagons is, but I would be very surprised if it's above 90 mph. 80 mph is a good general max speed for freight efficiency, I doubt there will be any mass adoption of wagons permitting speeds significantly higher than that.
@@Rail_Focus
Why? These vehicles destroy the track and infrastructure.
Why does it have a Scharfenberg coupler?
It can be folded away, but I believe they may be changing the coupler.
There are multiple different couplers that can be folded down
will become the standard coupler in the future all wagons will have to have sensors and detectors soon and one job ROG do is tow stock for repair
@@tomslade3365 Also this could mean that Multiple Units and newer carriages can be hauled with ease
Great info well done
Thank you 🙂
Maybe TPE could buy some and use them in place of their class 68s. They could use the batteries in stations and sidings at night so as to reduce noise levels like those lovely sounding 68s.
TPE no longer operates cl68s.
@@Rail_Focus Yeah, when I said, "in place of" I suppose I should have said "in place of the replacements for class 68s" as I understand their 68s are already in storage. I also understand this was because they were too noisy for locals near termini, though several reasons were given by online commentators for their being taken out of service.
@@SirKenchalot The class 68s were returned to the ROSCO and have been put into freight service from what I've heard. The Mk 5 fleet is still in storage, but plenty of operators have been eyeing them
@@andrewreynolds4949Transport for Wales or Scotrail should definitely get those sets.
Transport for Wales should order some
Unfortunately due to the routes the Class 67s work then there wouldn't be much benefit, save for between Manchester and Crewe. TfW would be better off with cl68s for the time being.
@Rail_Focus class 93 hasn't got enough power on diesel to haul mk4s up the marches with all the ets requirements. It's likely they'd order class 99s instead same with GWR
@anthonypowell5665 can't see there being much benefit of TfW ordering bi-modes yet.
@@Rail_FocusI wonder if those 93's woudl work well with ex TPE Nova 3 sets ..
@polishstick0609 possibly, but the Mk5 are going to Chiltern, which isn't electrified. They only really make sense for short stints on non electrified lines.
1:52 What's the difference between a rake and a consist?
Different way of saying the same thing. Would normally say "a rake of XYZ", but a "lengthy rake" wouldn't sound quite right.
@@Rail_Focus Gotcha! Thanks.
These engines can be used in pairs...sufficient power for heavier trains .. Many thanks for your video from Germany ! By the way, do you know,there is a six axeled version of Eurodual in development for UK ??
@@class77sncb I believe the Class 99 is a Eurodual variant with a Co-Co formation. Will be much more powerful in both electric and diesel mode.
I'm looking forward to class 99 more .
Same
Same. 99s will no doubt be used over the NLL and I doubt the 93s will.
I think it should have similar brake horse power as a Class 24 or a Class 26 while working in diesel mode.
As much as I think it's incredibly good that we have more locomotives capable of both electric and diesel traction, I think they missed a trick the Class 93 not being quad mode and being able to draw off the 750V DC third rail in the southern region like the Class 92s can.
Doesn't matter. The DC power supply is generally inadequate.
No third rail current collector?
Nope
Very nice, like ...
Let's hope the locos that may replace this get offset to places in the country without overhead lines, or converted to continue their useful life!
Fine looking loco and great sounding spec. However, what % of it is British built ?
We really must start making our own motive power and rolling stock again.
If Alstom offered a similar product then I'm sure freight companies would buy it. But it seems only Stadler is offering to build bespoke dual mode locos to a UK loading gauge
Only nationaIisation can guarantee nationaI production. The ruIing class, in charge of production, are inherently and definitionally international in both character and relations.
"Nationalisation" wouldn't have an impact on who manufactures the trains. Even under Labour ROSCOs would continue to own rolling stock and there's no way any Government would bring back nationalised factories.
@@Rail_Focus That's unfair. I didn't say "rail nationalisation" or "Labour" once, did I? I don't want to come off as rude, but it looks like you've put words in my mouth.
By "any government", what you really should say "any _current_ government." One of a new type that isn't offered to us because it threatens bǐIIǐônǎîrěs. It's wise to widen your perspectives to include possibilities outside of our corrupt pǎrlǐǎměnt.
could this be a replacement of the class 37?
More likely to replace Class 66s.
More likely to replace class 90 and slightly lesser units than the 66.
I suspect it take over from the 37,47.etc in being rescue locos and tugs for units going to repair or scrap , if anyone starts parcals logistic sirvices this would be Ideal loco farst light wight trains with battary or desil for shunting at trerninals etc........ I dout ROG spent/borrowed cash with no use in mind .....
Nice video mate. It would be a shame that all 66s will be leaving 😢
I think 66s will be around for a good few years yet. But an alternative to running diesel under the wires is needed.
Lol, the class 66 definitely aren't leaving. The freight operators have been struggling to find more, and that's a major part of why these new locos are appearing. The 93s are more likely to replace things like the class 47 or 90.
It's about time we go greener in the freight industry
The locomotive certainly looks very green!
@@andrewreynolds4949 😆
That Is Not A Tri-Mode, It’s A Catenary Switcherhead Diesel Engine (Battery Powered)
Tri-Mode = Steam, Diesel Or Petrol
@@bobbymcloughlin3452 right...... okay.......
The industry definition is tri-mode
A tall order 1200bhp diesel to handle 1600 ton freight with battery back up at total 1700bhp! I cant see them on freight with all that work covered by 66s 70s ? An order of 10 so far !
I did think that, but that's what the ROG rep told me. The engines and batteries should only be used for the very last few miles, so there maybe some WCML intermodal flows which they could be used for.
@Rail_Focus
I guess they should be under the wires most of their life but will have good route availability
100% nowhere near enough hp in diesel mode to haul freight
@@Rail_Focusno chance
i like the class 90 better tbh
fair enough
@@Rail_Focus yeah
Class 99 has appeared in public
Does it look similar to the Class 93? I've only seen the image in the factory
@@Rail_Focus looks longer with different bogies . F
Photos are on stadlers facepage
@@anthonypowell5665 just seen Richard Clinnick's Tweet. Co-Co and does look bigger you're right
It’s a shame it’s got to drag a useless battery along.
Not really
Its adding to the frame weight of the locomotive in other modes and to suggest batteries are useful to pull a 2000 tonne train any great distance is ludicrous, why bother😂
The battery is mainly for emergency use and shunting, I believe
@@andrewreynolds4949
Yes the battery might just be able move the loco 50 yards to get it out of the way
@@beau5757 It would be more than that; it should be able to drag the whole train out of the way. It should be able to match the output of the diesel engine for a very short period of time.
This looks good but is exactly wrong. A very expensive bit of kit that looks like it is brutal on the track - tiny wheels and a 21 ton axle load.
Freight trains should not be traveling at high speeds. It wastes energy and damages the track - the modern container carriers with small wheels are track bashers, and modern passenger trains are also destructive. It is becoming a real problem.
Electricity supplies will have to be enhanced to get rid of diesel running under the wires, and overall thermodynamic efficiency goes down.
The 9F freight locomotive is as powerful when using coal and about 20% more powerful when running on diesel fuel. Probably costs 20% of this locomotive initially and much the same to run.
Not all container wagons have small wheels, just those typically used on gauge constrained routes. There are wagons available which are a lot more gentle on the rails and intermodal trains are really not that heavy.
@@Rail_Focus
You can hear how much damage these trains are doing by the roaring noise they make. You can hear it on the video at 1:25 and 2:53 . Nasty flats as well giving the track a hammering. No wonder the track is so rough.
1200hp nothing like enough. Garbage
"Garbage", is that your professional opinion? 😉
@Rail_Focus Yes. 35yrs worth lol
@Rail_Focus Also only a BoBo so steep incline and wet railhead with a heavy train will find it wanting.
@kippaxstreeter fair enough 😅