Pilots and Controller ARGUE ABOUT SEPARATION | Number to Call Given
Вставка
- Опубліковано 25 сер 2024
- Your support is really important and appreciated to keep these videos coming! =)
-- / vasaviation
-- paypal.me/VASA...
Become a VIP member of VASAviation! -- / @vasaviation
Flying Eyes 10% OFF: flyingeyesopti...
Join VASAviation's Discord -- / discord
Twitter/Facebook/Instagram -- @VASAviation
Audio source: www.liveatc.net/
Please, give a big LIKE to support and for more videos like this!! :)
![[REAL ATC] American B757 has COMPLETE RADIO FAILURE out of Kennedy!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Wcq6KipBOro/mqdefault.jpg)
"Nope, 3.5. Thank you, though"... Phew, that hurts.
Why approach so pissed, American worried about spacing for safety reasons and based on American SOP, kinda ridiculous response by approach and unnecessary
You want someone to tell you how to do your job when you are busy?@@Blast6926
@@Blast6926because he slowed on his own, without clearance and affecting the whole sequence behind.
@@VASAviation He wasn't given any speed restriction while being cleared for the ILS approach so he can maintain his own speed as he wants, can't he? In Europe you can but I'm not sure how it is in FAA Land
@@d0m1nu27same thoughts here. So anyone knows the rules?
**Captain** "First officer, call up ATC and tell him he's doing a shitty job"... 💀💀💀
Fr. Dude got set up
So who calls approach? The captain or the FO? 😂😂
😂
@@sungkim-sx9oj Always the captain :).
LOL, true!
That's not an argument in New York, that's a conversation :p
NYC argument doesn't have the potential to cause hundreds of dead people ... just saying...
Quite a civil one, too
If they had been screaming at the top of their lungs in Cantonese, you'd think they were discussing dinner plans.
They're just saying "Hello"!
Exactly, absolutely anywhere else I would have assumed the way the controller said "How does it look to you?" to be passive-aggressiveness. With his NY accent, my mind automatically shaved off the edges and interpreted it as him just trying to understand the pilots.
We used to joke when operating out of ORD that ATC separation on VFR days was "You're 1.5 miles from traffic, and traffic is 1.5 miles from you. That's 3 miles." Loved that place.
That sounds like the most Chicago thing ever.
Yeah, that right there is math! 🤣
👍👍
Or when they have you doing 250 till 8 miles out 😂
@@smartycummins2500 Yeah. The Dornier 328 allowed me two bits of fun. 250 until about 4-4.5 miles, and getting cleared the visual from 8000 ft abeam the numbers. "Stabilized" wasn't a real big thing yet back then. LOL
I’m amazed at American’s ADM to think that they had a spacing problem in front of them but simultaneously think that slowing to 160 wouldn’t cause problems.
You're not amazed at the unprofessional hothead of a controller?
@@JonDoe-007 You've never flown into JFK as a pilot, have you?
Pilot is likely getting a call specifically for the slowing without instruction. Simply asking how the spacing is and saying it looks tight is not why he got the phone call.
He started slowing down once cleared for the approach. At that point speed is pilot discretion. Atc needs to renew the speed restriction once approach clearance is given. Probably got the number for talking too much here or because the shift supervisor wants to know more about the ops spec for aa so this doesn’t happen again
@@guardpolice3913 Hopefully the latter, actually. That's actually a very valid reason for a phone call - and that's exactly where that conversation should take place.
He wasn't given a speed assignment, so how could slowing violate anything?
Ahh, that makes more sense to me
He was cleared for the approach without a speed restriction. He can slow.
I've always wanted to hear what the phone conversations are like.
I think there's a recorded conversation between Harrison Ford and the tower when he called it. They talk about the time he landed on a taxiway flying over an airliner. lol.
@@TheFlyingZulu I did hear that one! He identified himself as the schmuck that landed on the taxiway lol
Respectful
99% of the time they are no big deal. It’s just far more appropriate to educate pilots on the phone than on frequency.
@atcdude067 not true at all. In fact, the OS can get in serious trouble for not reporting a possible pilot deviation. It's not up for the OS to decide. The region does that.
FO: "My captain says we need 5 miles". ATC: "My supervisor says you should be bump drafting that heavy in front of you like it's a NASCAR race. How about we compromise at 3.5 miles?"
When company ops conflict with standard separation requirements, it is incumbent on the pilot or someone in the cockpit to let the controller know that he's about to do something that's not in compliance with what is expected. Slowing to final approach speed so far from the runway has an accordion effect, much like you witnessed when the final controller had to start issuing all kinds of speed reductions. It increases his workload and distracts him from other more important tasks.
Exactly, getting snarky on the radio and slowing without requesting is not the way to go about it. Absolutely not the controller's responsibility to know the ops specs of every airline.
He's wrong about company ops tho. Otherwise aa would have issues at lga where they 3.5 mile separation all day
@@UnbeatenPath1 I figured as much. There's no way company could expect their pilots to nag approach about giving 5 mile separation, lol
Maybe he got confused with center separation (5mi,1000) and tried to cover up the embarrassment by claiming it's in their opspecs
company Ops Specs have nothing to do with IFR approach separation requirements.
“The pilot or someone in the cockpit…” Who else is in the cockpit? 🤪
Bless that FO for calling the captain out 😂
Love how the fo is throwing the ca under the bus.
Poor FO hahah
I think the old pilot in the American was thinking of the old wake separation criteria (his medium a/c behind the heavy in front of him) which was 5 miles, but some years ago the system switched to RECAT so the minimum is only 3 miles here (D behind C)
Yeah definitely an old head
First off, there’s no such thing as medium. Secondly RECAT isn’t a thing anymore either. It’s CWT (consolidated wake turbulence) with all new standards that will be system-wide here in about 2 weeks. The eastern service area has been using CWT for 2 years.
Couple of corrections,
formally it was large behind a heavy - 5NM when the heavy is crossing the runway threshold.
Under CWT Class F (upper large) behind Class C (lower Heavy) is 3.5NM when the C crosses the threshold.
You usually the final controller will build in some space for expected compression, but with AAL4 already at final approach speed there won’t be much if any compression. 3.5nm gives an adequate safety distance between these two types of planes where 5nm would be overkill and if replicated would result in lower arrival rates with holding and ground delay programs.
@@oooohkaay would only cause lower arrival rates as they don't use 22L for takeoffs (if possible)
@@oooohkaay I despise this attitude in health care. Would you feel safe knowing the department you've been admitted to is overcrowded and the doctor is overworked because "it has been deemed safe to do this". As an airline passenger, I think the current American acceptance of dangerous overcrowding when it comes to airports is bonkers. Safety has tanked, and serious incidents are on a rise.
Good to hear that both took the high road in this conversation.
That new York attitude was a little too spicey
i don't know how you guys do it. To me, this Controller sounds like an auctioneer. He is speaking so fast the words are so difficult to understand. It's amazing that his instructions are received and read back.
same here, at least i can understand the pilot but the Aproach ATC is unreadable
Pilot Read backs were clear and concise. Tower just jamming it all together.
Because you're not used to it. The New York airspace is some of the most congested in the world, and the most congested in the US, there more planes coming through that area at any given time than are landing at ATL which is the worlds busiest airport. They have to speak fast to get everyone cleared into and through the airspace and to the approaches. If they were talking slower it would slow EVERYTHING down, and then you'd have pilots and passengers complaining that things were taking too long. The real solution is to keep people from wanting to fly to New York in the first place. I mean the place is a cesspool, and rife with crime, and that doesn't seem to work. I guess it'll have to get as bad as Detroit before people stop wanting to fly in there. Until, then, learn to think faster and keep up with the controllers because that is what practice does.
99% of the time The pilots already know what altitude and heading their going to get based off of the approach plates so this is why it sounds so routine
@@ImpendingJoker he has time to talk his ass off not giving instructions. he does not need to talk that quickly.
You would think that someone at AA would know that some busy airports like NY would put traffic tighter than 5mi. So if they had a company policy to maintain 5, they should also have a policy that their pilots request that from approach controllers on first contact.
It's literally always AA
It should not be acceptable to any person flying. It's unsafe.
AA has always been a piece of work.
@@whatilearnttoday5295 what exactly is unsafe?
@@JmjbsWait and see... It's only a matter of time.
It's like when you are in a car on the highway and the guy in front of you does things differently than you would. And I can absolutely understand the controller too, he's juggling a lot of planes in his head and had it lined up perfectly, and one guy wants to do it all differently. That must be one hell of an annoying distraction.
Yep no matter what line of work you are in people who mess up the flow are very annoying.
Starting the exchange with the passive aggressive “how does our spacing look?” instead of making a clear and declarative statement that they think there’s an issue might not have been the most helpful course.
He was trying to not be an ass, the captain was telling him to do it and he knew it would make them look stupid
Nah. Not making an accusation allows the ATC room to make corrections with no-one needing to be written up? But this ATC sounds like he's maxed-out on caffeine and very defensive to me. Pilot says 3.5 is NOT in his operating specification. As he's responsible for the aircraft sounds to me like he's perfectly within his rights to state what he says. Even when Kennedy Steve gave pilot's a roasting, he barely gave a write-up - as far as I'm aware.
@@dominicbrant1968if it’s not in his op specs that should have been in his first call to ATC. ATC doesn’t know what he needs.
ATC is defensive from dealing with a passive aggressive pilot who’s unable to communicate what he needs / what he’s doing.
no way dude. it was a very courteous way of asking. controller cheerfully said looks excellent. Capt could have had the FO reply with a "perfect, thank you"
company Ops Specs have nothing to do with IFR approach separation@@timtjtim
I wish we could hear the phone calls. 🤣🤣
I'm looking at the picture at the end there and I keep thinking my God, look at the size of JFK...I used to work there as a medic and I never really grasped just how large the airport is.
Most large airports are that large or even larger. Yeah it's massive, but so many of them are nowadays
Of all the facilities to question separation why in the world would you try coming at an N90 controller. It’s hard enough to certify N90 - they deal with a crap ton of traffic, and you want to try to pick a bone about RECAT separation? 😳
The problem is that the pilots probably don't even know about RECAT/CWT. They might just think it's a standard 5 behind any heavy like it used to be. But yeah, like you said, probably not the brightest idea to question separation standards at a busy airport like that either. Having said that, with winds, actual wake turbulence doesn't care about mileage. He might've hit the Fedex's wake regardless of the legal separation. But at that point, just advise the controller you hit wake turbulence and that you request more space or to be resequenced.
It's unsafe and the pilots know this. Any pilot looking out for their passengers above the airport operators bank account is a good pilot.
@whatilearnttoday5295 Consolidated Wake Turbulence (CWT) changed how we separate aircraft. An A321 (cat F) and a B763 (cat C) only require 3.5 miles between them.
Suddenly slowing down in the queue, without notice, is the aviation version of a brake check.
Not quite ; AAL4 was wanting additional spacing from the aircraft *ahead* of them.
Sure, that likely means aircraft might have to slow down as well, but the actions of AAL4 have nothing to do with the aircraft behind them.
@@PVO300C Actually it does because now the airplane behind them is going faster than the AA airplane, making their separation tighter and subsequently the traffic also behind. AA messed up the flow of traffic by trying to slow early, which wasn't necessary.
@@erauprcwa But that's not brake checking ; that's slowing down to keep a safe/regulatory distance to the aircraft ahead. It's not done with the intention of causing trailing aircraft any harm.
@@erauprcwapilot is ultimately responsible for their aircraft and passengers. If the pilot deemed it necessary to back off that’s what he needed to do.
@@FishFind3000 He had requested to slow but did not wait for clearance to do so. His plane was not in danger so not an emergency. He did potentially endanger those aircraft behind him. The ATC needs to "control" all aircraft. Having a pilot doing his own thing is dangerous.
My wife told me to tell you that... !!!
I’ve had some controllers put me pretty tight behind traffic. It always seems to work out. If it doesn’t…I will go around. No big deal.
I think a lot of people are misreading the controller. I don't think he had attitude or was really upset at the pilot. Sounded like a casual NY conversation to me. I even bet the phone call was friendly.
Some of the female controllers at JFK mumble at lightning speed and go faster if asked to repeat themselves.
The controller's job is talking to people from all over the world, not just NY'ers. He was objectively being confrontational.
@@JakeC-xx8zq - He's too busy to be nice.
If he can't avoid an argumentative communication style and do a good job at the same time, perhaps he's in the wrong field.@@GWNorth-db8vn
@@GWNorth-db8vn It's not about being nice. He needs to be respectful and not escalate. If he can't do that and do a good job at the same time, he shouldn't be in this position.
Best. If the captain had been asked to visit the Facility and get the big picture of how things work. This controller had 7 iron birds moving. He was in the zone. Great job! Retired ORD
How have part 121 pilots not all been briefed on consolidated wake turbulence separation?? Didn’t they all as stakeholders sign off on the FAA implementing it across the NAS to save fuel? This is downright ridiculous, I’m glad they gave that asshole captain a phone number and hope they vibe checked the hell out of him once he called. And also, that was straight BS about the “ops spec” he referred to, he thought he knew what he was talking about and didn’t.
5 used to be the old wake turbulence standard. 3.5 (F behind a C) is the new standard. 4.74 was a waste of 1.24 miles when you’re busy :) Great job by that N90 final controller!
Not to mention, the 7110 doesn't give a shit about what AA's opspecs are.
so, even if he's at final landing speed, he's allowed to be at 3.5? genuine question
@@dominicbrant1968 as long as there’s 3.5 miles at touch, thats all that matters. We do throw in a little space for the last few miles
Appreciate it Mike. It's hard as a passenger to decipher who's right or wrong in these situations, as I don't have any professional involvement in flying. Some of these recordings appear like a 'shit st-rm' and, to be really honest, something make me more nervous about flying than I already am lol@@mikev1822
The ATC is argumentative, full of attitude, flustered. and needs a TIMEOUT. N90 means absolutely nothing to anyone's safety.
A frustrated Captain tells his FO to ask ATC about separation is a strange third party passive aggression.
Not if the captain is fly and the copilot is working the radios.
Captain is Pilot Flying (PF), F/O is Pilot Monitoring (PM).
It's resource management. The pilot monitoring handles the radios so the pilot flying can concentrate on, well, flying.
You can clearly see the FO has no interest in slowing hence why he says “the captain wants 160…”
One of those "don't shoot the messenger" moments, but unavoidable as long as he's sitting in the FO seat.
I fly into two contrasting airports who do this well and do this terribly. Going into London Gatwick it is always standard. 180kts on base and 160kts once established till 4 miles and separation is nearly always 3.5 miles. It works like a charm until some pilots decide they don't like it and do there own speed and it makes a mess of the approach controllers sequence.
Then there is Barcelona. A land of bandits and sheriffs. Controllers try to fill gaps rather than dealing with mistakes so if they see somebody going fast or a space they dont like they try to fill it by giving ridiculous speeds which nobody follows. Everybody is guilty of doing there own thing going into Barcelona. They would have you 220kts till advised at 9 miles with at 5 miles at 160kts and slowing.
My take is I would like to think that New York controllers are on top of their game and the thought of me asking "hows our spacing looking" makes my skin crawl. Comes across like a total tool here and he should know that 4.7 miles is absolutely buckets of space
as a clueless bill paying passenger, I appreciate this response - to those of us outside the industry is comes across as everyone knows best until it goes pear shaped. and from crew I know, it goes the shape of a fruit way more often than we passengers are led to believe
If there was a VASAviation premium subscription where we could hear the call, I would pay for it 😂
It seems important that tower didn’t say “possible pilot deviation”
Ya for all we know he just wanted to straighten out some details for the benefit of everyone, but not on freq of course. I dont think the controller was that rude. Its JFK.
For those uninitiated to New York and JFK. This conversation is still professional. JFK controllers are some of the best in the business. I guarantee you the controller just wanted to talk to the pilot and explain the spacing and why he can’t just slow to 160 whenever he wants. Nothing heated or aggressive about this exchange.
🤡
Best in the business of packing them in too tight with no concern for safety.
I want to hear the phone call for once. LOL
It hasn't gone unnoticed that a large number of videos of irate ATC/Pilot exchanges involving spacing seem to involve JFK .
Did you ever stop to think that they are one of the busiest airports in the world and the controllers there are well aware of exactly how to sequence aircraft? Pilots giving the entire stack a brake check by slowing in front of them without either notifying control or being told to slow are moronic.
@tvideo1189 I've spent my whole life on and around airports. I was born next to one, started plane spotting at 12 years old, worked on airports since I was 20 and live next to a busy one for 27 years. Yes I am aware JFK is very busy. I've been to the USA 31 times. A lot of the time spent at places like DFW, ATL, ORD, LAX, BOS, SEA, and of course JFK. I don't know what the spacing regulations are at those. I haven't checked . But they are as busy or in some cases busier than JFK. London LHR where I have spent many many hours has reduced spacing similar to JFK and as intense an amount of movements on just two runways.
And now my point.
JFK has a disproportionate amount of terse exchanges. Is it because there is someone who records more there than others do at other airports? I don't know. But the fact remains we hear a lot of exchanges.
New York Approach/Departure (N90) is not JFK, it covers the entire New York Area. Adding onto that N90 is one of the hardest and most difficult facilities to certify at as a controller, its so understaffed because nobody wants to transfer there knowing that they have less than a 50% chance to certify. Its hard, its difficult, and no other approach/departure facility comes even close to the restrictions and airspace that exist within N90, but just to be clear, the controllers at JFK are not the same controllers at N90. It's 2 separate facilities.
@thejets511 I'm merely quoting JFK as all the inbound exchanges recently have been i/b JFK. This is about the 6th ATC/pilot exchange recording I've heard in the last few months for JFK i/b.
It's too close. It's unsafe. People are going to die in large numbers. Bean-counters think it's fine, those people are worth less than the revenue this spacing brings in.
Ops spec lmao can you imagine if atc had to memorize every airlines ops spec!? “Oh American needs 42% more spacing here…let’s make that happen”
Standards are: 3 miles behind a mainline narrow-body (except 757), 5 miles behind a 757 or a wide-body (except A380), and 8 miles behind an A380.
That’s completely inaccurate and outdated. Do some research
Next time an ATC makes us go around due to insufficient spacing, I will give them a number too.
😂 Essentially: "Slow to final... and get off my radio!"
Sounds like all American had to do was ask...
Why do so many uploaders CAPITALIZE WORDS in a video's title? I wonder if the emphasis leads to more clicks.
I was flying into GIG on march 2nd around 9am from Miami and there was an Air France flight that had a missed approach ahead of us. I would love to hear that interaction and know what happened.
This hurt physically to listen to
Ouch
That didn’t sound like much of an argument.
That was a fairly benign argument, I dont think the phone call is going to result in anyone losing their license. Probably just a friendly chitchat about separation requirements, and if they can't sort it out over the phone, they'll arrange a barbecue party at someone's house.
Atc isn’t going to any bbq they get 1 day off and that’s just to sleep 😂
@@FishFind3000 Oh well, I guess they have to sort it out over the phone then.
That ain’t friendly lol
The phone call was about the pilot taking action on his speed without a clearance or even advising ATC about it. The problem he created was actually with Jet Blue. ATC fixed it smooth
@@earlblake2923 Meh, they had been cleared for the approach, and I don't see speed restrictions on the ILS 22L approach plate, nor did I hear the controller explicitly tell them to maintain the last assigned speed. Usually if you're cleared for the approach, you're free to reduce the speed as you see fit, is that not right?
I don’t want any extra training days, but….. Some ATC and airline pilot integrated training would be good for both sides. From my perspective, ATC frequently shows a serious lack of understanding of our jobs, as I’m sure we reciprocate to them. Pilots need to spend a little time with some approach controllers and the controllers need to do a couple cockpit ride alongs. Would do us all some good and make things safer. End of the day we all want the same thing.
Bring back Familiarization Trips, especially for us retired controllers.
These moments are up trending on this one.
Dude needs 5 miles? Geez where is he used to flying?
I’m surprised to hear they can run a 321 3.5NM behind a B763
Standard wake turbulence separation for those two type aircraft
Consolidated wake turbulence went into effect a couple years ago. I don't think the link will work on phone, but if you copy/paste on computer you'll be able to do it. According to the table for on approach, any A320 family aircraft behind any 767 series is 3.5 miles. STARS displays the category of all aircraft so ATC know how much separation they have to use, and they have a card next to them if they need a reminder.
www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/JO_7110.126A_Consolidated_Wake_Turbulence_Separation_Standard_FINAL_SIGNED_508.pdf
321 is almost around a 757 size, not that big a difference
@@j134679the FAA under wake turbulence recat developed 3 different “heavy” categories that all come with various spacing requirements depending on the trail aircraft’s category. Heavy jets behind heavy jets have all been changed as well.
@@j134679 A 757 produces very different wake... not the same
I miss Kennedy Steve
Could have been handled more politely, professionally and quickly by AAL4 if they'd just requested to reduce speed for additional spacing per their ops specs. It didn't have to turn into a pissing match. Unreal.
Company policy does not matter at all as a controller. I’ve never never heard a company, needing more separation than standard minimum, separation by the FAA
@@garett2892 I've found that FAA says in section 7 (speed) that "Approach clearances or climb via/descend via clearances *cancel any previously assigned speeds* "
Doesn't this apply here, since AA4 has been previously cleared for the approach?
@@BlueSkyUp_EU I work decend via a lot and there’s a point along the arrival that has a speed of 250 if I give them a descend via they can technically slow to 250 at their discretion. But there still doesn’t warrant for him to question the separation minimums when he has no idea what he’s talking about and then to blame it on company policy at the end, we don’t separate for company policy if they want us to start separating for company policy and they better pay us more
@garett2892 Can't say either way. I've only ever flown under Part 91. Regardless, PIC is responsible for safety of flight. I'd they felt they needed additional spacing, reasons aside, they could have made the request rather than clogging up a busy frequency with snarky bickering.
@@fivestringslinger exactly they could always go around instead of thinking they’re smart and questioning the controllers separation. Not to mention the captain wouldn’t even talk himself and made the first officer do it pretty sad.
One thing I've learned from my experience flying in and out of Chicago and NYC, you DO NOT slow down without them telling you first. Hold 250 KIAS until advised. When you're within 8-10 nm of the airport, then you can start to slow down, but prior to that, you're asking to be yelled at.
The magic word is... "unable".
And then the magic response is "American 4, Go around."
@@vbscript2 Yep. Exactly. Let him do a couple of leisurely turns around the pattern to get the wedgie out of his ass and he might start thinking the controller knows his job after all.
@@vbscript2
It would be cool if they did that. Of all the times I've advised ATC we were unable to comply with an assigned speed, they've never sent me around.
Yeah, that guy was just begging to broken off the approach and spun. LOL @@vbscript2
Yup! Then they go for number 3 for landing to number 56 because they have to get re sequenced. If AA can't handle large airports, they should stop making the large airports their hubs! None of the other airlines had a problem with 3.5 mile separation!
Ops Specs? Never heard of the OpSpec that requires certain ATC spacing on final… wtf is he talking about? 🤣🤣
Did I miss the initial speed restriction for AA4 or did the controller didn't give any but then is pissed because the pilot is slowing down for safety and SOP reasons?
He had aleady been given a speed before the clip started. Also, the 3.5 sacing is done all day everyday with no spacing concerns and the pilot was lying about the SOP.
He was cleared for the approach without a speed assignment. Speed is then pilots discretion
@@nickathans4949 Not how it works at JFK
Im a bit lost here, doesn’t the pilot have some say in what they’re comfortable in doing?
Yes. And the controller even said that they are willing to accommodate. And a pilot can always say "unable" and/or go missed. But it appears the captain unilaterally decided to start slowing down from an assigned speed, resulting in the phone call.
@Zebpalmer hit the nail on the head. I’d like to add if AAL or anyone else has any concerns then it’s always best to let approach know of said concerns in advance. Not when you’re in the middle of a sequence on approach. And don’t slow down unless given instructions to do so. The controller is basing their plan on everyone flying at a certain speed.
yes, "Approach American 4 request 160 knots for spacing"
Not when bean-counters are trying to kill everyone for a few bucks.
The pilot has no say, they must be comfortable with flying the plane as instructed and required especially in a congested airspace.
It’s always American. I had one question the same thing once. He said this looks tight I said there was plenty of space reduce to final for a departure. He questioned it again. I said “you know what, you right captain, Go-around”. I then got two US Air departures out in that gap. Next time I seen American again it was at least 25 minutes.
have you ever flown into JFK?
@@zone2Ironman yes, however most of my time is in ATC
Is it just me or is there a pattern these are more common with American Airlines?
For JFK, that controller was among the nicest I've ever heard or encountered. It's people like these guys that they get frustrated 😂
Since when do OpSpecs specify spacing requirements?
They don’t.
"Source: I made it up."
Screw it....if it gets too close I'll go around. And let ATC deal with it.
Sometimes you just have to do it that way. Years ago flying VFR out of KSEE in San Diego, I asked for Bravo Clearance on the Ground, from the Tower, and Approach because I needed to penetrate the class B shelf above to clear clouds and obscured mountains. I nearly clipped the Bravo and since then I have vowed that I will go around and around in the towers airspace until they give me some help. Sometimes the ATC needs a little misery themselves.
@@mafp22w lol a go around on commercial is misery for the pilots. Paperwork all the time.
Thanks for sharing, but include the updated chart at the end so you don’t get all the dumb comments!
Y'all realize that was a trainee working and the trainer stepped in once the American asked about the spacing. - "It looks excellent sir" is the trainer keying up.
If I'm wrong I'd be surprised cuz to me that's two extremely different voices
Hasn't the UK already changed to something better than the FAA recat? Due to strong headwinds, isn't it "air mass (time)" separation instead of just ground miles separation.
The amount of people that have no idea what they’re talking about is hilarious. And airline “opspec” that think they can supersede FAA regulations is laughable as well. This is a controller that knows his shit and is doing it perfectly.
I like this guy 👆🏻
Was that approach hooked up to a red bull IV drip?
Seriously, good question. I appreciate the context recorded here, because listening to that my blood pressure skyrocketed just sitting out here in the countryside in my easy chair
That's quite literally normal N90 stuff. Did you not see the conga line of planes into JFK?
@@driftspecs13 Interesting, you can observe an even longer line at e.g. LHR day in/day out and yet they manage to speak with less than 5000 words per minute.
@@dermann439all the pilots read back everything back fine so
Pushing tin not aluminum cans.
Controller was right. Clearly he does it all day long.
What a surprise... another American Airlines pilot slowing before they were cleared to.
Eminem doesnt stand a chance against that ATC
ATC are just humans, and they also make mistakes. But if I trust them with one thing than it is knowing which seperation they want.
Controller made no mistake in this video. If the pilot wanted more space it’s fine but just ask just don’t slow on your own
@swizzy7412 Controller even told the pilot that.
guardian angels watching radar blips
What happens on those ohone calls?
Sounds like the controller at first was practicing for his stint at the county fair as an auctioneer. Had that been a GA airport, gramps wouldn't be able to keep up.
I’m a GA pilot and approve of your message 😂👍
@@arthurbrumagem3844 Be safe up there.
And of course it's AAL. Always.
LEGENDS. -Balz
No Brasher Warning was given. The pilots are gonna be fine, probably a short phone call and clarification. Overall, professionalism was had on both sides!
Can anyone tell me what actually happens on these phone calls? :-P I heard it so often now but I am curious if they just talk about what happened and what to do better, do they request your data from the Airline, do they argue....?
N90 doesn't have time for another uppity American CA. Why is it almost always an American Airlines skipper with the snark and boomer takes?
WTF is a "boomer" take and if it is what I assume it is how is that even close to a "boomer" take?
At exactly what point did the Captain stop being in command of the aircraft, violate sterile flight deck and begin to school the ATC specialist?
If you don’t like it, Captain, you can always go around- but don’t start telling the ATC specialist how to do his job in the middle of the approach.
Ah, just another normal day at NY :D
He should have waited unless he felt there was an immediate danger. Aviate navigate communicate. If no danger danger he should have waited. But i wasn't there.
AA= Arrogant Airlines....33 years I listen to them on the radio....never ceases to amaze...PILLS.
Anybody ever record their phone calls and post it?
They’re recorded but not postable.
if you really care I think you can get a recording through freedom of information act
Poor FO. He knew it was plenty of space, could probably fit another one in the middle, but afraid captain thought he needed 5. 321 behind 763 in the new recat is 3.5,
This didn't require a phone call. Looks like it was washed out pretty well on the radio.
He didn't have time to argue with the pilot about arguing on the radio.
He needed to vent tho
Maybe it as a productive phone call and both parties learned something
Doubtful.@@gotacallfromvishal
What is missing is an anonymous pilot saying "Request number to call"
I believe every pilot should have followed, or at least expected to follow the published procedures including both vertical profile and published speeds when cleared for the approach, unless otherwise specified by ATC.
When it comes to final spacing and separation it is really the ATC profession. If there is wake turbulence concern from the pilot he can simply ask for the preceding aircraft type for his own information or as a warm reminder if something goes really tight. Slowing down without notifying ATC definitely irritates every approach controller in the world.
ATC's profession is cramming them in like the operator demands. Bean-counteres have determined the extra capacity is worth hundreds of lives.
I’d like to hear the audio on some of the calls that take place
That's actually surprisingly tame for a NYC controller 😅
Non-pilot here. I find it interesting that ATC wanted 3.5 separation and the pilot wanted 5 per company policy. As soon as the AA flight was working with the Tower, they immediately told him to be aware of wake turbulence. Wouldn't the wake turbulence be less of an issue if the ATC hadn't jammed them together at 3.5 separation instead of the 5 American policy called for? I get it that the plane should have called ATC to request the further spread, but it seems like the ATC caused the problem by jamming the planes too close.
Do you have any idea how many airplanes those Kennedy controllers have to land to keep them on any semblance of a schedule? Letting random jerk pilots just jamb on the brakes in the sequence screws up EVERYONE behind them.
As a controller, I could care less what company policy is for separation I know what my minimum separation I need is and that’s what I’m going to use
It used to be 5 miles of separation for a large aircraft (think A320/ 737) behind a heavy (767, 747 etc) but because the airlines want to squeeze as many flights in as possible they got the FAA to reduce the separation to whats called RECAT/ CWT. It's very complicated but in this specific case instead of the old 5 miles it's now 3.5 miles. Over the course of 1200+ flights that extra 1.5 miles allows hundreds more planes to land.
Tower advised about the wake turbulence because that's just what they do whenever a plane is following a heavy, not because it was less than 5 miles.
ATC didnt cause the issue by jamming planes in "too close" it's perfectly legal separation that the FAA promotes. Its the airlines who want to squeeze more flights in that are forcing the reduced sepration
If nothing else, it proved that AA had a point in asking about the separation. They are the ones out there. For ATC they are all just dots.
@@tvideo1189 Imagine how screwed up the schedule gets when one crashes because of wake turbulence.
Only 3.5 miles in trail of a heavy 767?
JfK sucks.
Sometimes I also slow down for safety, I just don't admit to it 😂
Standard Recat Wake separation
Why don't they land parallel on the 22s? SFO does that with closer runways
@@Issthisometimes they do, but they are using 22R for departures mainly.
@@VASAviation RECAT is not the same as CWT. The latest is CWT.
I get being upset over being questioned about your job like that, but did he really need to snitch on the pilot? Smh.
ATC had a nice ‘Spiel’ going there. Giving commands as if they were trying to set a WR in speed talking.
I think that's just how they talk there. I remember my first job interview with a firm in New York. Definitely didn't get the job as I wasn't expecting the conversation speed. She was done talking before my brain even registered the first few words of her question lol
This is like getting on the interstate and getting stuck behind someone going 50 in a 65 mph zone! The AA pilot could screw up the whole sequence slowing down without notifying ATC! The pilot needs to re assigned to a very very small airport where 2-3 flights take off per hour. Then he can slow to 160, 50 miles out and no one will care!!!
When JFK gets busy, they bring the planes in in pairs to both parallel runways. Side by side for wake turbulence. That might be going on here and they just aren't showing the traffic for the other runway.
You gotta love NY ATC, these guys great. As a pilot, alwyas have to be on your game.
Think he will get reprimanded for making his read back too slow, not slowing the speed. 😂
Legacy pilots always love to argue, they love a phone number as well..
ATC loves even more to let the beaurcracy of the FAA take an inch or two off their ego.
Sounded like the ATC was the aggressive one...
@@JakeC-xx8zq It’s Kennedy what do you expect, they don’t mess around..
@@427SuperSnake1 Well if I want to argue with someone needlessly, I know where it's easy to start one up.
American 4 did that right thing for safety and I'm sure they will explain that to ATC.
Actually he brake checked the planes behind he is to follow atc or ask permission to change speed this is a incredibly busy airport and you don’t make decisions on your own so he got a pilot deviation call
No, he didn't. The sequence was correct, and safe, before he got his panties in a wad and wasn't even man enough to get on the radio with the controller himself... he even had to have his unfortunate co-pilot do his bitching for him.
As a controller, the pilot has no idea what he’s talking about and absolutely just screwed the sequence thinking he’s smart. There was no safety concern
@@tvideo1189 Agreed that AAL should have kept their speed up and requested slower for spacing instead of unilaterally deciding to slow down but don't blame the Captain for having the FO relay his concerns to Approach. It's not the job of the pilot flying to handle the radios. That's the job of the pilot monitoring. It's called CRM (crew resource management). If the FO had been flying that leg it would have been the Captain on the radio. "Manliness" has no place on the flight deck. In fact, "macho" is one of the five hazardous attitudes we are taught to avoid.
@@johnopalko5223Aren't any speed restrictions cancelled once an aircraft is cleared for the approach? That's what I've found from FAA, section 7 (Speed)...
Not sure what happened here, but at most major airports the expectation is 170 til five mile final or the FAF.
Never get European airports on here arguing , wonder why
Maybe because arguing in a second language might be a little more challenging. Also, the U.S. audience is massive for this channel, so even if there was an argument in a place where ATC can communicate in a language other than English (say French), it would probably get way less views
Dope
..all ATC in Europe is in English ffs 🙄🙄
Because recording ATC frequencies or transmitting those recordings on the Internet (or anywhere else) is illegal in the UK, for starters. UK OFCOM has ancient regulations from the 1930s that they like to pretend are still applicable to the modern world.
@@filthyusratus French airlines + ATC are authorized to communicate in French as well. Other countries do this too, but that’s the main one that comes to mind
@nigel1957 The FAA (Federal Aviation Authority) and ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization), the world's organization overseeing aviation, require all pilots flying under their organizations to have attained ICAO “Level 4” English ability. This means all pilots must speak, read, write, and understand English fluently.... now the French think they are above the rest of the world , when getting my pilots license I had to sit and speak an English exam... even though its my native language!!!!
It’s always JFK and SFO.
These old crusty captains always picking fights with ATC need to retire.
All you pilots who think the separation required is 5 miles, your wrong. That hasn’t been the separation in 5 years.