Rebels did tend to nerf capital ships pretty hard. A Star Destroyer is a juggernaut of annihilation, one of the most powerful ships of its era, and a fleet of them sits there doing nothing. It's quite wretched.
@@colororb4105 lol. I always found the bombardment scene so underwhelming. The turbolasers were hitting like grenades. If 3 ISDs are bombarding your position the ground should be molten rock
Yes, the Empire could of send tons of Star Destroyers to Lothal after the Rebels finale and leveled the planet like they did with other planets such as Mandalore, just shows how less intimidating the Empire meant to be tbh
@@CloneScavengerVulpin8389 Actually, TIEs are supposed to be able to deal with both, and the Defender is more than capable of busting up rebel turbolaser batteries.
Main issues with this show....Empire is portrayed as silly villains, not a galactic powerhouse. You don't rule the galaxy with nothing but idiots in charge.
Yeah, I just want to see Lothal be annihilated by the Empire after the events of the seasonal finale, especially what happened to Mandalore and why they did not do the same to Lothal? I don't get that tbh
Empire was never show to be as a galactic powerhouse in the cinematic universe. Even in the first movie, their massive superweapon capable of destroying planets are taken down by a peasant in a small fighter. In the second movie they fail to catch the Rebels, secure Cloud City and catch Luke. In the third their superweapon is yet again blown up. And lets not get started on Stormtrooper aim.
@ barunedpat in ESB luke gets his hand chopped off, Han is captured and frozen, The Rebel base on Hoth is destroyed along with most of the Rebel fleet in the area. In NH Alderaan is vaporized, and the myth of storm trooper aim sucking is destroyed. The reason they don’t hit their targets is bc their targets are main characters and protected by plot armor. If you were not a main character you got killed. In RTJ the Empire would have won if it wasn’t for Ewoks. In rouge one even the entire Rebel raiding fleet is murdered along with the entire team that retrieved the Death Star plans.
I've read how Palpatine was bored after becoming Emperor. Nothing could compare to watching twenty years of planning pay off, and defeating ALL your enemies. The only way to keep himself on his toes mentally, was to cultivate mild incompetence in the Empire's command structure. Solving the problems they caused gave him something to do while he ruled. Explains why he "exiled" Thrawn. "You're great at your job, and inspire others to do their best. I need you as far away from Coruscant as possible for... reasons."
@@southernlegends8594 The first two things you mention, Luke and Han, are entirely orchestrated by Vader. As top dog as he is within the Empire though he isn't the entire empire and there are numerous other people in various positions capable of making very bad decisions. As for Alderaan being vaporized, yes they used their big super weapon to blow up an unsuspecting planet with no way of preventing it. That's not at all a show of competence because the same station they do this with gets blown up the next time it tries to blow up a planet. Not only do the Imperial forces aboard fail to prevent the station's destruction, the guy in charge dooms himself and everyone on the station cuz he ignores evidence that they could lose from people who clearly know better. ANH as a whole is a series of wrong calls by Tarkin. There's the guy who notes that the station is vulnerable which Tarkin seems to ignore. There's the destruction of Alderaan which galvanizes the rebellion in their effort to destroy the station. Tarkin dismisses the possibility of Obi Wan being around despite the person most likely to know clearly knowing. And of course there's the refusal to evacuate. On top of this you have the guy who Vader chokes being even more overconfident and thinking nothing could even threaten the Death Star in it's vulnerable state.
Yeah, and why did the Empire did not send in more Fleet to Lothal and leveled the planet like they did to other planets such as Mandalore? Especially after the finale, just made the Empire less scary and why they haven't returned for revenge, I just don't get it tbh
Almost like real life where a carrier burned down in port because the officers were arguing over who was in charge. The firefighters were so terrified of getting in trouble they didn’t do their jobs. It is not far fetched entities like the empire encourage incompetence.
@@saricubra2867 But in ANH the missing stormtroopers were purely intentional so that Tarkin could track the secret Rebel base on the moon of Yavin IV to destroy it with the Death Star. It is not about plot armor, it is about strategy and tactics. Quite contrary to that poor performance, remember how the stormtroopers easily boarded the Tantive IV in ANH and obliterated Echo Base on Hoth at the beginning of ESB. Not saying that there is no plot armor whatsoever in the OT, but it's much less than you are suggesting from my point of view
@@marles9196 but there's a huge plot hole in A New Hope. The Empire used probe droids in The Empire Strikes Back, and the tracking thing doesn't make any sense, plot armor in a nutshell. You kill the heroes and the Death Star destroys Yavin IV. The worst part about the plot armor is Han Solo legedary Deus Ex Machina moment of saving Luke by appearing out of nowhere just a few seconds before Yavin IV's destruction. Tantive IV is the exception to the rule, like how the Rebels got wrecked in Atollon. Hoth battle is another exception to the rule.
@@saricubra2867 I am not sure why you would consider the probing droids an alternative to the actual tracking device onboard the Millenium Falcon. Yes, you do have a point that there was the possibility of just spamming probe droids throughout the galaxy to find that tiny rebel holdout, but on the other hand, why waste that insane amount of resources and time if you could just track it down comfortably by using a classic ruse? I think this approach is very fitting to Tarkin who, by all means, was not exactly a man of patience. The galaxy is a huge place, and as stated by Admiral Ozzel in ESB, not every settlement the probe droids found was worthy of just throwing a imperial fleet at it. With the outpost on Yavin 4 the Empire literally had to look for the needle in a haystack, why not using a little shortcut then? Plus it does make sense for Han do blend in the way he did too, the Empire got comfortable and lazy by their arrogance and sent out way too few fighters to handle the rebel attack accordingly. This is fitting Tarkin too who, as clever and ruthless as he was, he was a very proud and arrogant dude. And last but not least, the stormtroopers performance... well, from the stormtroopers missions we have covered 2/3 of them successfully carried out until now with the exception being the planned escape from Death Star I which was totally intentional. Is it an exception now?
@@marles9196 All the thing about tracking the falcon to find the Rebel base instead of just using probes to find the base. "Insane amount of resources" They have, they made the Death Star, and so much resources and only one single point of failure or weakness is ridiculous. I mean Han Solo's Deus Ex Machina when he shows up literally a few seconds before Yavin IV gets blown up by the Death Star. How the hell he arrived from Yavin IV to the Death Star that quickly and convenient for the plot? "Galaxy is a huge place" Not an excuse, they use hyperspace ducts, they can get from planet or system to system extremely quickly. Nothing that the stormtroopers did was sucessful because they always miss their blaster shots because you want to keep your heroes alive for the sake of plot. A New Hope's script is a steaming pile of sh*t.
yeah imagine if they tried to use ramming as a major plot point in a battle for one of the movies.. That movie would probably turn out really bad I bet.
@ Cabooseforprez2012 in rouge one the ramming made sense, In rebels it’s dumb luck and lore braking all that even happened. That tie should have slammed into a shield wall and been destroyed but for some reason the writers forgot those existed. In rouge one the Star Destroyers had their shields disabled along with their engines before the maneuver took place.
@@southernlegends8594 that was more a dig at the last Jedi. Rogue One had an entire settup to the ramming to make it work. Plus we see a literal ramship plus two ships of equivalent scale hit each other.
@@andythesaladgod4578 The Prequel Trilogy didn’t have that, especially in Revenge of the Sith. The Empire won in The Empire Strikes Back, as well. The worst offenders of this trope is the entire Sequel Trilogy
@@Star_Wars_With_PercyMan They didnt wanted to kill him but had no choice since they have to respect the original Trilogy Storyline of Episode 4 were the only Jedi and Sith at that moment are Obi Wan (Who BTW literally tells Luke "Now the Jedi are all but extinct"), Yoda, Vader, Sidious and Luke (The Chosen One) otherwise they would have certainly kept him alive in the end.
Didn't the Empire grow more incompetent over time? Because there really is a stark contrasr between the Empire we see in The Bad Batch, Andor, and Rebels. As the in-fighting continued, competence got phased out even more for the loyalty of officers. Only Vader, Thrawn, Palps, and very few others got the job done.
@@nefasto11a cap because first, ahsoka ezra cal(maybe but quite high chance), are all alive. But that’s irrelevant because obi wan and yoda dont need to be the only jedi, just to “respect” the OT, they all need to do things that arent directly related to luke. That is probable because they want to keep a low profile because if vader knows where they at he will kill them. And luke isnt the chosen one.
Ok then , first off, Ahsoka isnt a jedi anymore (she left the order and literally said to Darth Vader "I am no Jedi" in SW Rebels season 2) she's something in between light and dark (Marketing manouver if you will) to respect "again" the balance set at the end of Episode 3, then we have Ezra who is not a jedi survivor and barely counts as a padawan (By the time he counts as Jedi it'll be AFTER Episode 6 and NOT before) now Kal Kestis its too soon to talk casue there's still 15 years BBY but wouldnt get my hopes on him or Cere being in the OT and finally here's a little intel on the Jedi status as part of the request made by George Lucas on the OT: According to Imperial Estimates in Star Wars Inside #87, only about 100 of the Jedi survived Order 66. Most were subsequently hunted down and killed in the years following the Great Jedi Purge.
Whenever I see a Rebels space battle, I often have to wonder why there’s only like 5 turbo laser bolts on screen at a given time compared to the dozens in TCW.
yeah, that is something I like and at the same time dislike in TCW (and also happens a couple of times in rebels): many times it happens that the camera shows a group of characters being shot but doesn't show the shooters, when that happens the characters being shot receive a lot of shots, there are lots of blaster bolts going around and it feels like they are being shot by an automatic machine gun; but when the camera shows who is shooting it shows that the shooter shoots at a pretty slow rate of fire, or at least slow enough that there's no way the other camera should show that many blaster bolts going around. Do I make myself clear? Is my comment understandable? I didn't word it very well lol
I’m a big fan of the imperials. Rebels gave us some cool new trooper, tank, and starfighter designs for them but their incompetency was hard to watch. I was cheering for the empire a lot of the episodes because they felt like the underdog lol. Andor’s portrayal of them was much stronger. They are a real threat and their incompetencies are explored systematically.
I agree. I feel the empire in Andor is being hampered by it's gov't design and "work culture". So it function well until something odd is thrown in the gears of procedure thanks to the studiousness of 'proper protocol mandates'. Personally I enjoy that "Your scary and not to be trifled with, Empire. But you do have your faults and I will exploit them until you fall."
andors potrayal tho didnt have 2 jedi, a mandalorian, a star pilot at the level of even the best, and an ex military leader, ghost squadron as a group is just too strong for them to have regular loses, mind you so many rebels died in the show, they just cant really kill off the main group, look at bad batch the empire is seen as strong in that but yet all of clone force 99 is alive, i dont see anyone complaining about their survival, and yea theyre elite clones but theyd still lose to ghost squadron in a fight
@@connorgarvin2056 I don't have a problem with them surviving, but surmounting smart or reasonably competent foes generally makes either more meaningful skill of the heroes and gives more meaning when either an area or group is "easy" or "harder". Also, if I may, a group of heroes can 'easily" defeat foes while having security and response not be 'strange' as enemy competent doesn't mean "win against the heroes" at least to me. Also capture and rescue missions every now and then can allow 'behind enemy lines' plot advancement, character growth, and in general a different kind of adventure. I'm the case of Bad Batch they are a kind of Super Soldier(s). And I do think their 'powers'\augmentations have been selectively downplayed from how they were first demonstrated (excluding echo as he is not a 99, but he too could a been used more for slicing a d data). Not that they can't have good or bad days, but the abilities are seemingly softened or ignored. These abilities and commando training explain how they can get into and out of more heated situations. These are at least my opinions on the matter, maybe I'm not recalling or know of certain things in play. Thank for reading. :)
I agree! Grand Admiral Thrawn was a foe not to be reckoned with. He had TIE fighters perform the Marg Sabl on an Elomin task force. If only those behind the show ''Rebels'' would have consulted with Timothy Zahn! He would have schooled 'em as if he was George Lucas himself!
Tbh, eu thrawn failed to capture main heroes like 12 times in one trilogy (bimmisaari, bpfassh, kashyyyk, way to jomark, myrkr, honoghr, palanhi, chimaera, pantolomin, katana fleet, coruscant, poderis)
@@user-lw8kb2vj9y pretty sure that's the heroes being really good, and not remotely Thrawns fault. If anything, it's the people he orders to capture the heroes fault
I remember someone from the early days of the show talking about hw the Rebels villains were actually going to be dangerous, and then to see them fall into the exact trap they tried to avoid anyway is just kinda sad. Also the ships feel extremely slow compared to normal
@@maestrofeli4259 Part of it is probably the style. Part of it is definitely the budget. Disney really cut down on the spending of the animation department when they bought Lucasfilm. Clone Wars was George Lucas' passion project to the point where he personally funded some of the more expensive episodes.
I always saw Thrawn’s *look* in this scene as pure annoyance. Just like during the S3 finale, his tactics were ruined because some glory-seeking military hotshot thought they knew better, which gave the Yavin Rebel group an opening. In fact, I’d say this scene, and immediately after it, is proof that Thrawn learned very well from that by stationing what looked like a majority of his TIE fighters near the planet’s surface, where they cut the whole strike force to bits. Like, he just looks out at the collision a little bit impressed but mostly “man, I don’t know what I was expecting from that” before metaphorically shrugging and calling up the second wave.
Basically every battle in this show: “Hey, one of our main characters just got captured! We have to rescue him because it’s the right thing to do! Let’s send like 3 people in a tiny little ship to save him from the Star Destroyer!” _Stupidly small team board the Star Destroyer somehow and fight like 200 stormtroopers with little difficulty despite the fact that they are insanely outnumbered and aren’t even using lethal means, rescuing the main character while Chopper conveniently destroys the entire capital ship during their escape by dropping thermal detonators into the toilet or something. The rebels will face no form of sacrifice, difficulty, or consequence for spontaneously deciding to partake in this very dangerous mission._ “We’re so happy to have you back! Go friendship!” _Rebels fly away in the Ghost while being continuously bombarded by TIE fighters, escaping with ease despite the fact that if anyone else was flying the ship it would have been completely obliterated after being shot twice_
@tylerrr3242 ur mad it was “ same BS” when it wasn’t. The story was new and different if u actually payed attention As I’m rewatching it I’m seeing things differently and it wasn’t all the same
The other issue is that tie defender pilot was never shown to have this obsession with taking out Hera until this episode. Sure they’ve crossed paths before but he was always very formidable and professional. Then they decide to make him disobey orders like the admiral at the end of season 3
I love Star Wars: Rebels but I hate the final battle for Lothal. I was hoping General Kalani would have shown up with a fleet of Separatist ships and droid fighters. It would have made sense too as Ezra did go off world to get help and Kalani would be able to go against Thrawn and defeat him. I also hate the Purrgil since it was a cheap way of writing Thrawn and Ezra out as it would conflict with the OT. Ezra should have sacrificed himself for Lothal as his master did for his crew.
The problem is that this battle was trying to show off how awesome the X-Wing was. But they went about it in such a way that made the Empire seem incompetent, rather than making the Rebels be skilled.
Nah. Thrawn didn't "have to scramble" new fighters, he had them waiting all along. He expected Hera to break through because he knew how good of a pilot she was and how innovative the rebel fighters were; he was prepared for that (though he did look impressed at the Defender-Arquitens-ISD triple-Nat-20 she rolled). The point was that Thrawn had fighters waiting in-atmo to shoot the raiders down when they couldn't turn back; your proposition (putting enough ships up front to wipe them out on the front lines) would have risked letting them turn back when they saw the overwhelming enemy strength and strike later, or to abort midway and escape with pilots and resources. Thrawn's plan eliminated everyone. 100% kill rate.
"Hold your fire, there are no lifesigns aboard." "B...but sir, they're X-Wings. They're shooting down our fighters. There's obv..." "MY SCANNER SAYS NO LIFESIGNS! Hold your fire! What's the worst that could happen?"
One thing about Rebels’ space battles that I don’t see many people talking about is how slow the fighters feel. They feel very clunky in flight and just overall slow. You can even see it in the clips shown in this video.
I think... The reason the star destroyers rarely fire is because of the fact that their fighters tend to already be in the mix. Most COs don't want to accidentally shoot down their own ships.
In some battles they have the Rebels with several CR-90 corvettes acting like nothing more than transport ships, they get attacked by inmperial ships and dont fire back. I remember one where there was four of them and they were attacked and defeated by a light cruiser and its fighters. I was almost screaming at the screen "you guys have three dual turbolasers, and several laster cannons each fight back FFS."
Lol, thank you. I agree. If you are going to pretend that the CEC Corvette isn't armed , then at least send a CEC DP series gunship to give the other 4 hope.
I always thought that half of the attack group should have died. And instead of a swarm Tie fighters have a few Tie Defensers shot down the survives. This would have made the crash scene more connected.
It would eventually be cool to get a sort of civil war animated tv show w the clone war style animation and scale to help hammer down some of the biggest battles we see, like the mid rim offensive in the battlefront novel, the battle of kuat later in the war and hell maybe even a fully realised jakku in all its chaotic glory. I think they may touch on those if the films don’t, but cmon just imagine it, even if it’s a really well done fan made project
Cannon sucks. The way the Empire collapses after Endor makes no sense as they somehow spontaneously loose tens of thousands of star destroyers in a matter of months. What they should do is just re-do the Civil War and incorporate a lot more legends material such as Imperial Warlords n such. The rebels didn’t become super powerful over night after Endor, the Empire still had like 6 SSDs. It makes no sense how they somehow were toppled so quickly whilst remaining united
@@southernlegends8594 so it makes no sense that an empire with power hungry people in it won’t try and take the throne for themselves leading to mass in fighting?? like that didn’t happen in legends, and like the NR didn’t become super powerful practically overnight in legends anyways.
@@splatoonistproductions5345 what doesn't make sense in canon is the speed of these events. Empires do not disintegrate overnight, their death is always a slow and painful process. In Canon it just *POOOF* - Empire no more. Come on, look even at the real world events in Russian-Ukrainian war right now. A year had passed and there are no end in sight. And you say that a galaxy-spanning civil war would take less long? In Legends the Empire fractured, but its assets and people had not disappeared, leading to the Warlord era which lasted for over a decade - which is a realistic timeframe for such a large and dirty civil war to happen. And even after that, the Remnant was still alive and kicking, even if only a shadow of former glory.
@@nickcher7071 well, in Canon it was deliberate. Palpatine didnt want the empire outliving him so he sabotaged it, hence the rapid collapse. Then theres the whole sequels stuff which is its own can of worms
@captainkyperplayz1162 So you mean to tell me that no one in the Empire had the 2 brain cells to rub together that destroying the Empire in favor of starting all over in the canonically most dangerous/uncharted part of the Galaxy was a bad idea? Operation Cinder is up there in being the dumbest additions to Star Wars canon. As well as the most underhanded for being the prerequisite for baiting and switching players that were promised an Imperial campaign.
Didn't Hera's ship literally survive a direct hit in this battle from a Star Destroyers turbo laser? You know the same kind that can basically glass an entire planet in due time?
You still have to admit it's pretty cool to see an Imperial ship lose control and smash into an Imperial Star Destroyer by accident. It's almost as if they are paving the way for an accident where a small starfighter crashes into a very large star destroyer, and that causes the ship to lose control and smash into a very large Imperial ship by accident. Nah, that would never happen....
I think a big problem with current star wars (except andor) is just how useless the empire is. In the originals, the stormtroopers were kind of a joke cuz characters have plot armor, but at least there were some rationalizations to explain it. Now we get jokes in series like Mando where the stormtroopers can't hit a rock like 5 meters away. There is very little tension that way. I think Andor is a perfect example of how to do it a lot better, everything from the stormtroopers, to regular tie fighters seem way more menacing.
Agreed, it's Falanderization to the extreme. Even in the OT, they were more than happy to make the Empire generally competent (Bespin, Hoth, Obi-Wan's comments, etc.) and their mess-ups be only when absolutely "plot necessary". In DSW, they think it's cute to make little meta jabs at how much they suck all the time.
I was watching some old World War 2 movies and also Sum of All Fears, and really that I think that element of fighters and bombers having to dodge the anti air fire is something missing from a lot of Star Wars. Of course they really haven't done great about slugging matches between the big ships since Revenge of the Sith and Clone Wars.
I will say that personally, the thing that sells the chain-reaction for me is the look on Thrawn's face. It's just the right amount of irritation and resignation to lampshade the deeply improbable results of one guy disobeying his orders yet again.
The thing I hate about this battle is the inconsistency with “shields”. You see one ship get smacked with a tie fighter and nothing happens. But an Arquitens-class light cruiser gets hit in the “power-Magazine” and goes down?????
I agree and this is a problem with Disney Star Wars in general. The "bad guys" have to complex and capable or it ruins the story as well as hurting the good guys ability to become heroic. Heath Ledger taught us this to great effect in The Dark Knight. Instead of Darth Vader we get characters like General Hux who are nothing more than comedy relief.
A singular A-Wing, which is waaay smaller then an arquitens, crashed into a super star destroyer which is a thousand times larger then an average star destroyer in the RoTJ -Eck: I'm going to ignore that
To be fair, it wasn't just the singular A-Wing that brought down the Executor, but also the entire Rebel fleet, "concentrating all their firepower" on the Executor. Even then, it would all have been for nothing had the Executor's shields remained intact.
Good point. There is nothing wrong with that scene in the overall scheme. It’s a fantasy / science fiction story whose primary audience are 10 years old boys. What’s next - analysis of an Iron Man movie? Jeez.
I feel like rebels missed some beats from the early rebellion. I think they should have had an episode where we saw the alliance steal the X-Wing Prototypes.
I was also expecting an episode on that, and totally got baited both on the Y-wing stealing episode and when they tease the TIE defender. Then one scene they pull up with X-Wings out of nowhere like it's nothing lol. Maybe we'll get it in Andor.
Hehe, Incom must have some serious smuggling contacts in this timeline. "Your order of 500 X-Wings from Incom has arrived. The DP-90 was thrown in as a bonus. That'd be 400,000 credits and a Galaxy saving please."
It would have been nice to see a mission on screen for that. I believe the only depiction of the mission to acquire the X-Wing that we get in Star Wars is the old EU story of the Battle of Fresia shown in the original Empire at War RTS, where the Alliance early on attacked the imperial garrison there, extracted imprisoned Incom engineers and scientists, and made off with the X-Wing prototypes before the official ceremony announcing the Empire's nationalization/seizure of the Incom Corporation. It would have even made for a good story arc as opposed to a single episode.
Capital ships as set dressings is really bad in Rebels. Makes the Imperial Class look almost worthless. And they had the perfect opportunity to have Gladiator and Victory class starships in this series and let them shoot and be a threat while showing off the Rebel skills in getting away. Then when Imperial class ships show up, the terror of the Empire can grow.
I don't think this was an example of Thrawn being a bad commander. He did not want to eliminate the entire Rebel space force above Lothal. If he did, he would get no intel. The second wave of fighters on the planet was the TRUE blockade.
I thought it made his Commander / Fight Baren’s hubris in disobeying orders look like the exact problem with the Imperial theocracy. Thrawn’s countermeasure was perfectly executed with the immeasurable amount of Tie Fighters deployed!
The problem about Rebels, Clone Wars, Star Trek, etc is that fleet battles are only as good as the plot desires. While Rebels did kill off Kanan, eliminating the main characters is rare and generally only when a series is about to come to an end. This means the bad guys always have to loose, or, at least, not get a big win. There could be an argument about Walking Dead, etc, but for a kids show, they bad guys are always going to lose and the good guys are going to win. This makes it hard to watch Thrawn lose especially having read the books and knowing just how good of a commander he actually is.
I think this could have worked in a simple way. Using the tie defenders to the advantage of the rebels. Clearly Thrawn has only 4 star destroyers, covering a wider area, show that. SHOW the distance, that these ships are covering, so far as to actually blockade the area. They can't fire on the defender, it's expensive, powerful, etc. By sticking close the rebels could engage the defenders whilst the imperial gunners couldn't open fire. After all, the defenders shields actually offer a larger target and blind fire into a swarm of ships will cause an issue. Thrawn can't then recall the fighters as they'd just draw the ships closer to the imperial star destroyers and as such potentially allow them to do some damage and disable the blockade. So the best option is to drawn in frigates closer to engage Phoenix Squadron. This sets up the gambit, high risk for high reward. If the rebels manage to take out the frigate it can be used defensively or damage the nearby destroyer. In the end he could see the frigate destroyed and as such it cascades into the star destroyer, but in doing so the squadron are all heavily damaged and as they make a break for the surface the destroyer can still fire on them and as such the limp home and can't make it into the atmosphere with out abandoning ship
I hated this scene as well, mainly because at one point it potrayed Thrawn as a buffoon, when he needlessly decided to shoot down Hera with turbolasers, while endangering Skerris (TIE Defender pilot), who was in much better position to finish her. Also I was generally dissapointed with the Rebels as a whole.
My favorite thing about rebels is they are adamant about not killing but end up destroying a star destroyer or cruiser with all hands by the end of the episode lol
The only moments I liked in this show was when the protagonists were losing. These were the best moments with Maul, Vader, siege and so on, while every other moment felt as if Imperials were all blind deaf and didnt know how to use weapons.
Can we see a video on your thoughts on the clone wars? I personally think clone wars is by far the best show and up there for best Star Wars media, and while rebels has its moment I find it really frustrating, as it’s very obviously let down by it being a kids show, unlike the clone wars which was allowed to thrive more in its pg12 age rating
It’s a troupe that Star Wars has given the watchers far to often, this little band of rebels outwits and defeats a massive, modern, well trained and commanded military with ease, how exactly did the empire do anything, they were and are beaten time and time again, it’s why I don’t watch much of the galactic civil war stories because no matter how brilliant someone like Grand Admiral Thrawn is some kid will out smart him.
Rebels always made an out for the Rebellion that made the show hard to get into. There were no stakes really. They were always set to win by the writers' hands, even against difficult odds, because one thing would happen and break the Empire's metaphorical neck in the process (TIE Defender crashing into the Arquitens here, Admiral Constantine lookibg for glory with Sato's suicide run, etc.). It never felt organic. The Empire could never win.
Ah yes, another Star Wars battle where the rebels lose 2 unnamed x wing pilots and the empire loses 9 capital ships. Haven’t had one of those in 5 minutes.
Apart from the fact they really just did the bare minimum. I get the timeline wouldn’t allow a full on set piece battles But even the Battle of Kamino had an incredible space battle.
You make a fair point about the Star Destroyers in the show. For the most part, we don't see them do much other than serve as an imposing presence in the form of a blockade or garrison place holder (we only really saw their destructive power during the season 3 and 4 finales). That being said, I'd have to push back on your point about Thrawn seeming incompetent after the TIE Defender debacle. I'd argue that the show didn't (intentionally or unintentionally) make him seem like an incompetent commander, but it rather highlighted that his "failure" stemmed from some of the top people under his command being over-confident or rash. Constantine during the season 3 finale serves as an example of that, and I believe Skerris does in this case, too. If I remember correctly, Thrawn told Skerris to disengage, but he continued to pursue Hera. This is what ultimately led to his downfall. And I think it more so highlights that Hera outplayed Skerris, not the Defender itself. We saw the Defender pretty clearly damage Hera's ship, but it was her wit and patience that saved her life.
Thank you for this! No one talks about this battle. I hated it. Is this the Imperial Star Destroyer now? I remember back in the day when losing a single ship made Daala feel like an incompetent Commander.
Pft this is pretty much everything I love about Rebels… The only thing I don’t like about this space battle is that they let the X-Wing fire with it’s s-foils closed, which EU and canon have established cannot work because that would dangerously cause the blaster canons which are too close to each other to overheat and explode. Star Wars Squadrons, which I do like, also unfortunately makes this mistake.
I believe the context of the S-Foils is that its incredibly dangerous, and a mechanically inclined pilot could override and accept the risk if they choose to. Which is definitely a Hera type thing to do.
Why weren't the Star Destroyers blasting them with their multiple batteries of turbo lasers, was everyone on every ship on their lunch break?! Seriously, the X-wings should have flying into a wall of energized death, instead, theatrics.
The Empire should have won. Those ISDs carry hundreds of fighters. The Empire can deploy its own Corvettes too. The only reason the Rebels won was because the plot needed them to win.
Sure, those Star Destroyers have lots of TIEs but TIEs and their pilots are pretty bad compared to the rebel alliance x-wings, which also has capital ships that could deploy hundreds of fighters. The Empire definitely should have used corvettes though. Personally I think that the Battle of Yavin at the very least makes sense because of the Force.
Thank you! It always bothered me that in Clone Wars, capital ships are active, game changing participants in battles with immense firepower. While in Rebels, they're nothing more than carriers (that dispatch like 2 fighters. For context, a US aircraft carrier is supposed to be like 1/5 the size.) Really bothers me.
Additionally, the switch from Venators to Star Destroyers was supposed to signal a shift from a ship that primarily relies on fighters to a ship with more firepower. But you never get the sense form Rebels.
The only issue i had with the scene is hera firing with the s-foils closed. I think that isnt supposed to be possible, as the cannons generat somuch heat that they need to be spaced out or risk fusing or burning each other out?
I just hate the "no killing" from the rebels, when we all know that's not how it is. It makes sense in bad batch since they are fighting they're brothers, but rebels fighting stormtroopers makes no sense to use stun
Biggest issue I had was lack of background fighting, we could only see like two or three ships at a time whereas modern Star Wars films have massive battles in the background with dozens of fighters you could see at a time plus Lazard literally everywhere, good eye candy haha ZD xxd
I think it's either the style or budget don't allow for amazing space battles, look at Clone Wars it had great space where tactics used but ditches all that for some reason.
This wasn’t budget or style related. In rebels they had rebel corvettes in battle all the time without any problems, but here they are just gone. I bet Dave decided he wanted all the focus on Hera’s fighters and the drama with the TIE pilot rather than having an realistic and logical battle.
Remember this is the same show where kanan one hit an ATAT like it was butter. Rebels is mid tier, good episodes but way to many questionable scenarios.
If we put this battle in an Empire at War game, surely those ISD don't just stand there, the rebels would have been eliminated. Heck, we can even replace the Imperial SD for some Victory SDs instead.
Before all the rebels haters flood in rushing to complain about how the space battles are always too simple and the good guys always win and "this isn't how it goes when i play empire at war" etc etc, a friendly reminder that those issues are the same across pretty much all of onscreen star wars. Rebels is a fantastic show which doesn't deserve the hate it gets; this was just one scene that could have been improved upon.
Rebels is excellent when its a character driven space pirate, mystical adventure series set during the dark times. Rebels is an awful military drama, which wouldn't be an issue if the show didn't constantly go back to the war. Every conventional fight feels stakeless and hollow when stormtroopers are the underdogs against some scrappy pirates who can mow down hoards consequence free. When a stormtrooper regularly misses a shot from feet away with a height advantage I tune out. Plus there is no weight to death, the heroes can kill tens of thousands and not feel burdened by their actions even a little bit. The Ghost crew come off as bloodthirsty maniacs. The show reads like it was written by someone whose only idea of war came from old WW2 propaganda movies. "Avatar the Last Airbender" is a far more responsible kids show about war because life isn't cheap, the heroes actually wrestle with the consequences, and there are actual debates on how to resolve moral and ethical dilemmas.
The best parts of "Rebels" is basically Firefly but Star Wars. They didn't know how to do a military drama and should've avoided the rebellion parts altogether IMO
It always bugged me a bit how the Star Destroyers and the Tie Fighters looked in Rebels, the former with their long necks, the latter for their stunted proportions.
This issue is a recurring problem throughout the series, and is especially noticeable in season 1 and 2. It just brings the whole show down from good to average.
The thing I dislike about rebels is how it turns these strong battleship star destroyers into these paper thin ships that barley do any damage. That goes for the whole empires navy, feels so nerfed. It dosent feel as powerful as it should be, and the weak fire power dosent help.
Rebels' main mistake with the entire Thrawn arc was to give Thrawn too many recourses. He shines when he's the underdog, under equipped, and out numbered. If you give him a fleet and army of any real size then the story has to make excuses as to how any of the good guys ever win. This scene is just yet another example of that. Thrawn has a massive fleet yet somehow Hera has to triumph in part or else she dies, had Thrawn only had 1 Star Destroyer which he couldn't risk then you'd have a much more believable engagement where Thrawn is laying a trap to lure the Rebel squadron into the jaws of his Tie Defender by presenting a weak naval force, this then pushes the Rebels to waste time to try and destroy it, something Thrawn not only expects but plams for; the Defender is a bluff, it's job is to weaken the Rebels sure but it's real job is to distract them whilst the ground based pilots scramble to intercept the Rebels after they "punch" through the "blockade". Instead Rebels just made Thrawn appear smart but weak, cunning and yet never deadly, undefeatable and yet obviously doomed by the plot in a really unsatisfactory way.
Rrbels does have one of Handos best lines when he is going to help ezra, and you just hear, "Hera, for that boy there is NOTHING i would not do" its just yes hondo be the galactic treasure we all knwo you are
One scene I absolutely do not like was when those creatures sent Ezra and Thrawn into hyperspace. Without any way to keep the breathable air in, both Ezra and Thrawn would've suffocated. It looked cool but did not logically make sense.
It pretty much is all Filoni and his need for his crew to be the great invincibles. So by extension everyone who goes against them will lose and sometimes spectacularly.
Rebels did tend to nerf capital ships pretty hard. A Star Destroyer is a juggernaut of annihilation, one of the most powerful ships of its era, and a fleet of them sits there doing nothing. It's quite wretched.
At least they do a lot of orbital bombardments
@@colororb4105 lol. I always found the bombardment scene so underwhelming. The turbolasers were hitting like grenades. If 3 ISDs are bombarding your position the ground should be molten rock
Yes, the Empire could of send tons of Star Destroyers to Lothal after the Rebels finale and leveled the planet like they did with other planets such as Mandalore, just shows how less intimidating the Empire meant to be tbh
Dont forget the B-wing scene. 1 ship will destroy a whole capital ship, but the rebels dont make more of it.
@@paulomr445 Eh. The purpose was to capture Alliance personnel alive, per Tarkin's orders.
Star Destroyer crew: "Shall we fire?"
Thrawn: "No. Just sit back and enjoy the fireworks. Let the TIE fighters have their fun."
out of character for thrawn. He'd adapt to the situation.
@@ArgentWolf95 Heck he'd win the thing with just the Architens, no Star Destroyers or anything. Disney really fucked up his character.
@@infinitespace2520 I hate how they Kiddified thrawn into a saturday morning cartoon imperial.
Ties are more likely to hit fast moving x-wing starfighters than a bunch of turbolasers.
@@CloneScavengerVulpin8389 Actually, TIEs are supposed to be able to deal with both, and the Defender is more than capable of busting up rebel turbolaser batteries.
Main issues with this show....Empire is portrayed as silly villains, not a galactic powerhouse. You don't rule the galaxy with nothing but idiots in charge.
Yeah, I just want to see Lothal be annihilated by the Empire after the events of the seasonal finale, especially what happened to Mandalore and why they did not do the same to Lothal? I don't get that tbh
Empire was never show to be as a galactic powerhouse in the cinematic universe.
Even in the first movie, their massive superweapon capable of destroying planets are taken down by a peasant in a small fighter.
In the second movie they fail to catch the Rebels, secure Cloud City and catch Luke.
In the third their superweapon is yet again blown up.
And lets not get started on Stormtrooper aim.
@ barunedpat in ESB luke gets his hand chopped off, Han is captured and frozen, The Rebel base on Hoth is destroyed along with most of the Rebel fleet in the area. In NH Alderaan is vaporized, and the myth of storm trooper aim sucking is destroyed. The reason they don’t hit their targets is bc their targets are main characters and protected by plot armor. If you were not a main character you got killed. In RTJ the Empire would have won if it wasn’t for Ewoks. In rouge one even the entire Rebel raiding fleet is murdered along with the entire team that retrieved the Death Star plans.
I've read how Palpatine was bored after becoming Emperor. Nothing could compare to watching twenty years of planning pay off, and defeating ALL your enemies. The only way to keep himself on his toes mentally, was to cultivate mild incompetence in the Empire's command structure. Solving the problems they caused gave him something to do while he ruled.
Explains why he "exiled" Thrawn. "You're great at your job, and inspire others to do their best. I need you as far away from Coruscant as possible for... reasons."
@@southernlegends8594 The first two things you mention, Luke and Han, are entirely orchestrated by Vader. As top dog as he is within the Empire though he isn't the entire empire and there are numerous other people in various positions capable of making very bad decisions.
As for Alderaan being vaporized, yes they used their big super weapon to blow up an unsuspecting planet with no way of preventing it. That's not at all a show of competence because the same station they do this with gets blown up the next time it tries to blow up a planet. Not only do the Imperial forces aboard fail to prevent the station's destruction, the guy in charge dooms himself and everyone on the station cuz he ignores evidence that they could lose from people who clearly know better. ANH as a whole is a series of wrong calls by Tarkin. There's the guy who notes that the station is vulnerable which Tarkin seems to ignore. There's the destruction of Alderaan which galvanizes the rebellion in their effort to destroy the station. Tarkin dismisses the possibility of Obi Wan being around despite the person most likely to know clearly knowing. And of course there's the refusal to evacuate. On top of this you have the guy who Vader chokes being even more overconfident and thinking nothing could even threaten the Death Star in it's vulnerable state.
They really had to make the empire hilariously incompetent for the rebels to win
The Empire has always been a always been incompetent, have you forgotten the imperial gunners that did not destroy the escape pod in episode IV.
@@StuartLegomanLittle yeah that’s kinda my point
Yeah, and why did the Empire did not send in more Fleet to Lothal and leveled the planet like they did to other planets such as Mandalore? Especially after the finale, just made the Empire less scary and why they haven't returned for revenge, I just don't get it tbh
Almost like real life where a carrier burned down in port because the officers were arguing over who was in charge. The firefighters were so terrified of getting in trouble they didn’t do their jobs. It is not far fetched entities like the empire encourage incompetence.
@@StuartLegomanLittle but there are competent imperials
I think plot armor is what kills the franchise right now, so glad Andor changed that, it is so refreshing to see actual competent imperial antagonists
Andor has less plot armor than The Empire Strikes Back.
Nowadays people would hate A New Hope.
@@saricubra2867 But in ANH the missing stormtroopers were purely intentional so that Tarkin could track the secret Rebel base on the moon of Yavin IV to destroy it with the Death Star. It is not about plot armor, it is about strategy and tactics.
Quite contrary to that poor performance, remember how the stormtroopers easily boarded the Tantive IV in ANH and obliterated Echo Base on Hoth at the beginning of ESB.
Not saying that there is no plot armor whatsoever in the OT, but it's much less than you are suggesting from my point of view
@@marles9196 but there's a huge plot hole in A New Hope. The Empire used probe droids in The Empire Strikes Back, and the tracking thing doesn't make any sense, plot armor in a nutshell. You kill the heroes and the Death Star destroys Yavin IV. The worst part about the plot armor is Han Solo legedary Deus Ex Machina moment of saving Luke by appearing out of nowhere just a few seconds before Yavin IV's destruction.
Tantive IV is the exception to the rule, like how the Rebels got wrecked in Atollon.
Hoth battle is another exception to the rule.
@@saricubra2867 I am not sure why you would consider the probing droids an alternative to the actual tracking device onboard the Millenium Falcon. Yes, you do have a point that there was the possibility of just spamming probe droids throughout the galaxy to find that tiny rebel holdout, but on the other hand, why waste that insane amount of resources and time if you could just track it down comfortably by using a classic ruse? I think this approach is very fitting to Tarkin who, by all means, was not exactly a man of patience. The galaxy is a huge place, and as stated by Admiral Ozzel in ESB, not every settlement the probe droids found was worthy of just throwing a imperial fleet at it. With the outpost on Yavin 4 the Empire literally had to look for the needle in a haystack, why not using a little shortcut then?
Plus it does make sense for Han do blend in the way he did too, the Empire got comfortable and lazy by their arrogance and sent out way too few fighters to handle the rebel attack accordingly. This is fitting Tarkin too who, as clever and ruthless as he was, he was a very proud and arrogant dude.
And last but not least, the stormtroopers performance... well, from the stormtroopers missions we have covered 2/3 of them successfully carried out until now with the exception being the planned escape from Death Star I which was totally intentional. Is it an exception now?
@@marles9196 All the thing about tracking the falcon to find the Rebel base instead of just using probes to find the base.
"Insane amount of resources"
They have, they made the Death Star, and so much resources and only one single point of failure or weakness is ridiculous.
I mean Han Solo's Deus Ex Machina when he shows up literally a few seconds before Yavin IV gets blown up by the Death Star. How the hell he arrived from Yavin IV to the Death Star that quickly and convenient for the plot?
"Galaxy is a huge place"
Not an excuse, they use hyperspace ducts, they can get from planet or system to system extremely quickly.
Nothing that the stormtroopers did was sucessful because they always miss their blaster shots because you want to keep your heroes alive for the sake of plot.
A New Hope's script is a steaming pile of sh*t.
The whole "one ship collides into another and slices through it" trope hopefully won't become too common
yeah imagine if they tried to use ramming as a major plot point in a battle for one of the movies.. That movie would probably turn out really bad I bet.
It makes you wonder why they don't just make missiles but instead of explosives they put blades or rams on them lol.
@ TheScruffinator because of something called shield generators. Which for some reason were ignored in this scene
@ Cabooseforprez2012 in rouge one the ramming made sense, In rebels it’s dumb luck and lore braking all that even happened. That tie should have slammed into a shield wall and been destroyed but for some reason the writers forgot those existed. In rouge one the Star Destroyers had their shields disabled along with their engines before the maneuver took place.
@@southernlegends8594 that was more a dig at the last Jedi. Rogue One had an entire settup to the ramming to make it work. Plus we see a literal ramship plus two ships of equivalent scale hit each other.
I disliked alot of the battles in this show, the good guys always win with minimal consequences
So like 90% of battles in Star Wars?
Of course they do, it’s a kiddie show.
pretty much the same across all of star wars, rebels gets so unfairly judged for this
@@andythesaladgod4578 The Prequel Trilogy didn’t have that, especially in Revenge of the Sith. The Empire won in The Empire Strikes Back, as well. The worst offenders of this trope is the entire Sequel Trilogy
battle of atollon is probably the biggest case of plot armor in history
The team behind rebels really made the empire look very incompetent while giving ridiculous amounts of plot armor to phoenix squad.
Kanan wants his plot armour back
@@Star_Wars_With_PercyMan They didnt wanted to kill him but had no choice since they have to respect the original Trilogy Storyline of Episode 4 were the only Jedi and Sith at that moment are Obi Wan (Who BTW literally tells Luke "Now the Jedi are all but extinct"), Yoda, Vader, Sidious and Luke (The Chosen One) otherwise they would have certainly kept him alive in the end.
Didn't the Empire grow more incompetent over time? Because there really is a stark contrasr between the Empire we see in The Bad Batch, Andor, and Rebels. As the in-fighting continued, competence got phased out even more for the loyalty of officers. Only Vader, Thrawn, Palps, and very few others got the job done.
@@nefasto11a cap because first, ahsoka ezra cal(maybe but quite high chance), are all alive. But that’s irrelevant because obi wan and yoda dont need to be the only jedi, just to “respect” the OT, they all need to do things that arent directly related to luke. That is probable because they want to keep a low profile because if vader knows where they at he will kill them. And luke isnt the chosen one.
Ok then , first off, Ahsoka isnt a jedi anymore (she left the order and literally said to Darth Vader "I am no Jedi" in SW Rebels season 2) she's something in between light and dark (Marketing manouver if you will) to respect "again" the balance set at the end of Episode 3, then we have Ezra who is not a jedi survivor and barely counts as a padawan (By the time he counts as Jedi it'll be AFTER Episode 6 and NOT before) now Kal Kestis its too soon to talk casue there's still 15 years BBY but wouldnt get my hopes on him or Cere being in the OT and finally here's a little intel on the Jedi status as part of the request made by George Lucas on the OT:
According to Imperial Estimates in Star Wars Inside #87, only about 100 of the Jedi survived Order 66. Most were subsequently hunted down and killed in the years following the Great Jedi Purge.
The star destroyers don't seem scary at all in rebels, while in the movies the star destroyers are literally a symbol of power
I like the WEG SW D6 star destroyers. Powerful, but not undefeatable.
I love WeG. Especially Otherspace.
Whenever I see a Rebels space battle, I often have to wonder why there’s only like 5 turbo laser bolts on screen at a given time compared to the dozens in TCW.
yeah, that is something I like and at the same time dislike in TCW (and also happens a couple of times in rebels):
many times it happens that the camera shows a group of characters being shot but doesn't show the shooters, when that happens the characters being shot receive a lot of shots, there are lots of blaster bolts going around and it feels like they are being shot by an automatic machine gun; but when the camera shows who is shooting it shows that the shooter shoots at a pretty slow rate of fire, or at least slow enough that there's no way the other camera should show that many blaster bolts going around.
Do I make myself clear? Is my comment understandable? I didn't word it very well lol
@@maestrofeli4259 I understood it
@@jawbelly9174 Imperial officers don't care at all about TIE losses, the things are sent out completely unshielded for god sakes.
Well the Clone Wars was full of massive capital ship fleet battles. Rebel fighters are just too small and fast for turbolasers to work well
The answer is probably just a budget shift, since Rebels was set in relatively peaceful times compared to the Clone Wars.
I’m a big fan of the imperials. Rebels gave us some cool new trooper, tank, and starfighter designs for them but their incompetency was hard to watch. I was cheering for the empire a lot of the episodes because they felt like the underdog lol.
Andor’s portrayal of them was much stronger. They are a real threat and their incompetencies are explored systematically.
I agree. I feel the empire in Andor is being hampered by it's gov't design and "work culture". So it function well until something odd is thrown in the gears of procedure thanks to the studiousness of 'proper protocol mandates'. Personally I enjoy that "Your scary and not to be trifled with, Empire. But you do have your faults and I will exploit them until you fall."
andors potrayal tho didnt have 2 jedi, a mandalorian, a star pilot at the level of even the best, and an ex military leader, ghost squadron as a group is just too strong for them to have regular loses, mind you so many rebels died in the show, they just cant really kill off the main group, look at bad batch the empire is seen as strong in that but yet all of clone force 99 is alive, i dont see anyone complaining about their survival, and yea theyre elite clones but theyd still lose to ghost squadron in a fight
@@connorgarvin2056 I don't have a problem with them surviving, but surmounting smart or reasonably competent foes generally makes either more meaningful skill of the heroes and gives more meaning when either an area or group is "easy" or "harder". Also, if I may, a group of heroes can 'easily" defeat foes while having security and response not be 'strange' as enemy competent doesn't mean "win against the heroes" at least to me. Also capture and rescue missions every now and then can allow 'behind enemy lines' plot advancement, character growth, and in general a different kind of adventure.
I'm the case of Bad Batch they are a kind of Super Soldier(s). And I do think their 'powers'\augmentations have been selectively downplayed from how they were first demonstrated (excluding echo as he is not a 99, but he too could a been used more for slicing a d data). Not that they can't have good or bad days, but the abilities are seemingly softened or ignored. These abilities and commando training explain how they can get into and out of more heated situations. These are at least my opinions on the matter, maybe I'm not recalling or know of certain things in play. Thank for reading. :)
0:33 The EU Legends Thrawn would have easily taken down Phoenix Squad before they even realize they're at his mercy
Agreed, Canon Thrawn aswell
I agree! Grand Admiral Thrawn was a foe not to be reckoned with. He had TIE fighters perform the Marg Sabl on an Elomin task force. If only those behind the show ''Rebels'' would have consulted with Timothy Zahn! He would have schooled 'em as if he was George Lucas himself!
@@stevenyarnell Exactly! I hope Zahn is involved at least in some way with the Ahsoka series and live action Thrawn
Tbh, eu thrawn failed to capture main heroes like 12 times in one trilogy (bimmisaari, bpfassh, kashyyyk, way to jomark, myrkr, honoghr, palanhi, chimaera, pantolomin, katana fleet, coruscant, poderis)
@@user-lw8kb2vj9y pretty sure that's the heroes being really good, and not remotely Thrawns fault. If anything, it's the people he orders to capture the heroes fault
I remember someone from the early days of the show talking about hw the Rebels villains were actually going to be dangerous, and then to see them fall into the exact trap they tried to avoid anyway is just kinda sad.
Also the ships feel extremely slow compared to normal
Rebels action in general feels pretty slow especially compared to Clone Wars and Bad Batch
@@datguy3581 maybe animation budget was smaller in rebels?
@@maestrofeli4259 Part of it is probably the style. Part of it is definitely the budget. Disney really cut down on the spending of the animation department when they bought Lucasfilm. Clone Wars was George Lucas' passion project to the point where he personally funded some of the more expensive episodes.
I always saw Thrawn’s *look* in this scene as pure annoyance. Just like during the S3 finale, his tactics were ruined because some glory-seeking military hotshot thought they knew better, which gave the Yavin Rebel group an opening. In fact, I’d say this scene, and immediately after it, is proof that Thrawn learned very well from that by stationing what looked like a majority of his TIE fighters near the planet’s surface, where they cut the whole strike force to bits.
Like, he just looks out at the collision a little bit impressed but mostly “man, I don’t know what I was expecting from that” before metaphorically shrugging and calling up the second wave.
Basically every battle in this show:
“Hey, one of our main characters just got captured! We have to rescue him because it’s the right thing to do! Let’s send like 3 people in a tiny little ship to save him from the Star Destroyer!”
_Stupidly small team board the Star Destroyer somehow and fight like 200 stormtroopers with little difficulty despite the fact that they are insanely outnumbered and aren’t even using lethal means, rescuing the main character while Chopper conveniently destroys the entire capital ship during their escape by dropping thermal detonators into the toilet or something. The rebels will face no form of sacrifice, difficulty, or consequence for spontaneously deciding to partake in this very dangerous mission._
“We’re so happy to have you back! Go friendship!”
_Rebels fly away in the Ghost while being continuously bombarded by TIE fighters, escaping with ease despite the fact that if anyone else was flying the ship it would have been completely obliterated after being shot twice_
So basically plot armor?
@tylerrr3242really same thing over and over? So why did my boy die? Then my other boy vanish?
@tylerrr3242 ur mad it was “ same BS” when it wasn’t. The story was new and different if u actually payed attention
As I’m rewatching it I’m seeing things differently and it wasn’t all the same
Basically every episode of the rebels going into a star destroyer
bro its for kids chill
The other issue is that tie defender pilot was never shown to have this obsession with taking out Hera until this episode. Sure they’ve crossed paths before but he was always very formidable and professional. Then they decide to make him disobey orders like the admiral at the end of season 3
Konstantine already in season 2 show that he has little respect to execute orders.
It is an established part of Star Wars lore that if an interceptor crashes into a capital ship, that ship must then crash into something bigger
I love Star Wars: Rebels but I hate the final battle for Lothal. I was hoping General Kalani would have shown up with a fleet of Separatist ships and droid fighters. It would have made sense too as Ezra did go off world to get help and Kalani would be able to go against Thrawn and defeat him. I also hate the Purrgil since it was a cheap way of writing Thrawn and Ezra out as it would conflict with the OT. Ezra should have sacrificed himself for Lothal as his master did for his crew.
Bro thinks no more Star Wars content with Ezra is gonna come out lol
Nah, Thrawn can't be defeated without something truly unexpected.
space whales...
I actually like this idea, might do a fanfiction rewrite someday.
Trust me buddy, at that time there was no strategic mind could have defeated Thrawn.
Even an droid.
The problem is that this battle was trying to show off how awesome the X-Wing was.
But they went about it in such a way that made the Empire seem incompetent, rather than making the Rebels be skilled.
Nah. Thrawn didn't "have to scramble" new fighters, he had them waiting all along.
He expected Hera to break through because he knew how good of a pilot she was and how innovative the rebel fighters were; he was prepared for that (though he did look impressed at the Defender-Arquitens-ISD triple-Nat-20 she rolled).
The point was that Thrawn had fighters waiting in-atmo to shoot the raiders down when they couldn't turn back; your proposition (putting enough ships up front to wipe them out on the front lines) would have risked letting them turn back when they saw the overwhelming enemy strength and strike later, or to abort midway and escape with pilots and resources.
Thrawn's plan eliminated everyone. 100% kill rate.
Agreed.
Thrawn's expression looked like a subtle "......Unexpected." while still seeming like it fell within his margin of belief.
The firefights in Rebels are sometimes so painful to watch, they are just standing in front of each other missing every shot
"Hold your fire, there are no lifesigns aboard."
"B...but sir, they're X-Wings. They're shooting down our fighters. There's obv..."
"MY SCANNER SAYS NO LIFESIGNS! Hold your fire! What's the worst that could happen?"
One thing about Rebels’ space battles that I don’t see many people talking about is how slow the fighters feel. They feel very clunky in flight and just overall slow. You can even see it in the clips shown in this video.
I think... The reason the star destroyers rarely fire is because of the fact that their fighters tend to already be in the mix. Most COs don't want to accidentally shoot down their own ships.
Yeah, I have no problems with that at all, it makes sense. You don't wanna take out friendlies by accident, that's just a stupid move.
Add to that , rebels are advanced and have shields , but the tie's are barely flying behind them., And the fact that it's turbolaser not laser
@@sumukhvmrsat6347 only the ISD II didn't have laser cannons and point defense guns.
The bad guys tend to not care about such things
Sadly, the Empire trains their CO's to not care about casualties. Every pilot is replaceable
In some battles they have the Rebels with several CR-90 corvettes acting like nothing more than transport ships, they get attacked by inmperial ships and dont fire back. I remember one where there was four of them and they were attacked and defeated by a light cruiser and its fighters. I was almost screaming at the screen "you guys have three dual turbolasers, and several laster cannons each fight back FFS."
Lol, thank you. I agree. If you are going to pretend that the CEC Corvette isn't armed , then at least send a CEC DP series gunship to give the other 4 hope.
I always thought that half of the attack group should have died. And instead of a swarm Tie fighters have a few Tie Defensers shot down the survives. This would have made the crash scene more connected.
It would eventually be cool to get a sort of civil war animated tv show w the clone war style animation and scale to help hammer down some of the biggest battles we see, like the mid rim offensive in the battlefront novel, the battle of kuat later in the war and hell maybe even a fully realised jakku in all its chaotic glory.
I think they may touch on those if the films don’t, but cmon just imagine it, even if it’s a really well done fan made project
Cannon sucks. The way the Empire collapses after Endor makes no sense as they somehow spontaneously loose tens of thousands of star destroyers in a matter of months. What they should do is just re-do the Civil War and incorporate a lot more legends material such as Imperial Warlords n such. The rebels didn’t become super powerful over night after Endor, the Empire still had like 6 SSDs. It makes no sense how they somehow were toppled so quickly whilst remaining united
@@southernlegends8594 so it makes no sense that an empire with power hungry people in it won’t try and take the throne for themselves leading to mass in fighting?? like that didn’t happen in legends, and like the NR didn’t become super powerful practically overnight in legends anyways.
@@splatoonistproductions5345 what doesn't make sense in canon is the speed of these events. Empires do not disintegrate overnight, their death is always a slow and painful process. In Canon it just *POOOF* - Empire no more. Come on, look even at the real world events in Russian-Ukrainian war right now. A year had passed and there are no end in sight. And you say that a galaxy-spanning civil war would take less long?
In Legends the Empire fractured, but its assets and people had not disappeared, leading to the Warlord era which lasted for over a decade - which is a realistic timeframe for such a large and dirty civil war to happen. And even after that, the Remnant was still alive and kicking, even if only a shadow of former glory.
@@nickcher7071 well, in Canon it was deliberate. Palpatine didnt want the empire outliving him so he sabotaged it, hence the rapid collapse.
Then theres the whole sequels stuff which is its own can of worms
@captainkyperplayz1162 So you mean to tell me that no one in the Empire had the 2 brain cells to rub together that destroying the Empire in favor of starting all over in the canonically most dangerous/uncharted part of the Galaxy was a bad idea? Operation Cinder is up there in being the dumbest additions to Star Wars canon. As well as the most underhanded for being the prerequisite for baiting and switching players that were promised an Imperial campaign.
Didn't Hera's ship literally survive a direct hit in this battle from a Star Destroyers turbo laser? You know the same kind that can basically glass an entire planet in due time?
You still have to admit it's pretty cool to see an Imperial ship lose control and smash into an Imperial Star Destroyer by accident. It's almost as if they are paving the way for an accident where a small starfighter crashes into a very large star destroyer, and that causes the ship to lose control and smash into a very large Imperial ship by accident. Nah, that would never happen....
"Intensify forward fire power!"
I think a big problem with current star wars (except andor) is just how useless the empire is. In the originals, the stormtroopers were kind of a joke cuz characters have plot armor, but at least there were some rationalizations to explain it. Now we get jokes in series like Mando where the stormtroopers can't hit a rock like 5 meters away. There is very little tension that way. I think Andor is a perfect example of how to do it a lot better, everything from the stormtroopers, to regular tie fighters seem way more menacing.
Agreed, it's Falanderization to the extreme. Even in the OT, they were more than happy to make the Empire generally competent (Bespin, Hoth, Obi-Wan's comments, etc.) and their mess-ups be only when absolutely "plot necessary". In DSW, they think it's cute to make little meta jabs at how much they suck all the time.
I was watching some old World War 2 movies and also Sum of All Fears, and really that I think that element of fighters and bombers having to dodge the anti air fire is something missing from a lot of Star Wars. Of course they really haven't done great about slugging matches between the big ships since Revenge of the Sith and Clone Wars.
tactics and strategy in general is sorely lacking from Star Wars.
I will say that personally, the thing that sells the chain-reaction for me is the look on Thrawn's face. It's just the right amount of irritation and resignation to lampshade the deeply improbable results of one guy disobeying his orders yet again.
The thing I hate about this battle is the inconsistency with “shields”. You see one ship get smacked with a tie fighter and nothing happens. But an Arquitens-class light cruiser gets hit in the “power-Magazine” and goes down?????
I agree and this is a problem with Disney Star Wars in general. The "bad guys" have to complex and capable or it ruins the story as well as hurting the good guys ability to become heroic. Heath Ledger taught us this to great effect in The Dark Knight. Instead of Darth Vader we get characters like General Hux who are nothing more than comedy relief.
A singular A-Wing, which is waaay smaller then an arquitens, crashed into a super star destroyer which is a thousand times larger then an average star destroyer in the RoTJ
-Eck: I'm going to ignore that
A-Wings do not care for your physics
To be fair, it wasn't just the singular A-Wing that brought down the Executor, but also the entire Rebel fleet, "concentrating all their firepower" on the Executor. Even then, it would all have been for nothing had the Executor's shields remained intact.
Also keep in mind the DS II's gravity well may well have pulling an uncontrolled cap ship in; in this case the SSD.
Good point. There is nothing wrong with that scene in the overall scheme. It’s a fantasy / science fiction story whose primary audience are 10 years old boys. What’s next - analysis of an Iron Man movie? Jeez.
I feel like rebels missed some beats from the early rebellion. I think they should have had an episode where we saw the alliance steal the X-Wing Prototypes.
I was also expecting an episode on that, and totally got baited both on the Y-wing stealing episode and when they tease the TIE defender. Then one scene they pull up with X-Wings out of nowhere like it's nothing lol. Maybe we'll get it in Andor.
Hehe, Incom must have some serious smuggling contacts in this timeline. "Your order of 500 X-Wings from Incom has arrived. The DP-90 was thrown in as a bonus. That'd be 400,000 credits and a Galaxy saving please."
It would have been nice to see a mission on screen for that. I believe the only depiction of the mission to acquire the X-Wing that we get in Star Wars is the old EU story of the Battle of Fresia shown in the original Empire at War RTS, where the Alliance early on attacked the imperial garrison there, extracted imprisoned Incom engineers and scientists, and made off with the X-Wing prototypes before the official ceremony announcing the Empire's nationalization/seizure of the Incom Corporation. It would have even made for a good story arc as opposed to a single episode.
Capital ships as set dressings is really bad in Rebels. Makes the Imperial Class look almost worthless. And they had the perfect opportunity to have Gladiator and Victory class starships in this series and let them shoot and be a threat while showing off the Rebel skills in getting away. Then when Imperial class ships show up, the terror of the Empire can grow.
In the first couple of seasons, they mostly went against Arquitens and Gozanti class ships,bbut they started throwing in ISDs way too much later on
I don't think this was an example of Thrawn being a bad commander. He did not want to eliminate the entire Rebel space force above Lothal. If he did, he would get no intel. The second wave of fighters on the planet was the TRUE blockade.
"Oh no, a blockade... we only have a zillion other escape vectors left."
Ah, SW Rebels! the ultimate plot armor overdose experience.
Bro its a Kids Show 💀
@@joel5135 same with clone wars and we got better stuff in that
@@idrinkbleach188 Clone Wars is for 12 year olds. Rebels is for 6 year olds. See the diffrence?
@@joel5135 still for kids
@@idrinkbleach188 and? 6 year Olds are completely different than 12 year olds
I thought it made his Commander / Fight Baren’s hubris in disobeying orders look like the exact problem with the Imperial theocracy. Thrawn’s countermeasure was perfectly executed with the immeasurable amount of Tie Fighters deployed!
Andor is the best show of the Imperial Era Disney has made as it actually depicts the Empire as a feared and almost unstoppable force
aren't there only 2 shows set in this era?
@@maestrofeli4259 Three, Bad Batch
@@rhysharris9302 yeah you're right
@@rhysharris9302 bad batch is like really early, so empire is still republic sorta and not as evil
@@sealco *disagrees in Mayday*
The problem about Rebels, Clone Wars, Star Trek, etc is that fleet battles are only as good as the plot desires. While Rebels did kill off Kanan, eliminating the main characters is rare and generally only when a series is about to come to an end. This means the bad guys always have to loose, or, at least, not get a big win. There could be an argument about Walking Dead, etc, but for a kids show, they bad guys are always going to lose and the good guys are going to win. This makes it hard to watch Thrawn lose especially having read the books and knowing just how good of a commander he actually is.
This feels like KAI LENG levels of plot armour.
*bitch leng
i dislike the time travelling thing and thrawn (he's so weird in the series)
Rebels
I think this could have worked in a simple way. Using the tie defenders to the advantage of the rebels.
Clearly Thrawn has only 4 star destroyers, covering a wider area, show that. SHOW the distance, that these ships are covering, so far as to actually blockade the area. They can't fire on the defender, it's expensive, powerful, etc. By sticking close the rebels could engage the defenders whilst the imperial gunners couldn't open fire. After all, the defenders shields actually offer a larger target and blind fire into a swarm of ships will cause an issue. Thrawn can't then recall the fighters as they'd just draw the ships closer to the imperial star destroyers and as such potentially allow them to do some damage and disable the blockade. So the best option is to drawn in frigates closer to engage Phoenix Squadron.
This sets up the gambit, high risk for high reward. If the rebels manage to take out the frigate it can be used defensively or damage the nearby destroyer. In the end he could see the frigate destroyed and as such it cascades into the star destroyer, but in doing so the squadron are all heavily damaged and as they make a break for the surface the destroyer can still fire on them and as such the limp home and can't make it into the atmosphere with out abandoning ship
“Only the fighters are attacking, I wonder what those Star Destroyers are waiting for.”
As a die-hard Rebels fan, I completely agree with you.
I hated this scene as well, mainly because at one point it potrayed Thrawn as a buffoon, when he needlessly decided to shoot down Hera with turbolasers, while endangering Skerris (TIE Defender pilot), who was in much better position to finish her.
Also I was generally dissapointed with the Rebels as a whole.
My favorite thing about rebels is they are adamant about not killing but end up destroying a star destroyer or cruiser with all hands by the end of the episode lol
What I hate about Rebels is the ridicolous amount of plot armor the rebels have
I liked rebels but i agree the fact thrawn didnt win was infuriating. Same like the end of rebels it wasn’t satisfying it was just BAD
"The sequence is silly" is like... modus operandi of Rebels.
"Only the fighters are attacking, I wonder what those star destroyers are waiting for"
The only moments I liked in this show was when the protagonists were losing. These were the best moments with Maul, Vader, siege and so on, while every other moment felt as if Imperials were all blind deaf and didnt know how to use weapons.
Can we see a video on your thoughts on the clone wars? I personally think clone wars is by far the best show and up there for best Star Wars media, and while rebels has its moment I find it really frustrating, as it’s very obviously let down by it being a kids show, unlike the clone wars which was allowed to thrive more in its pg12 age rating
bro none Rebels and CW were pg12 or anything, and this is coming from a fan of both shows.
@@Peter-xg1ol some of CW episodes were, it was able to go up to 12, for example the episode where palpating fights the brothers is a 12
It’s a troupe that Star Wars has given the watchers far to often, this little band of rebels outwits and defeats a massive, modern, well trained and commanded military with ease, how exactly did the empire do anything, they were and are beaten time and time again, it’s why I don’t watch much of the galactic civil war stories because no matter how brilliant someone like Grand Admiral Thrawn is some kid will out smart him.
Remember that this was a kid's show for DisneyXD, they had to make Star Wars family-friendly. However, it still has great and memorable fights.
The battle was fun, but yeah larger ships tend to just be background props, another reason why I always liked clone wars over rebels
Rebels always made an out for the Rebellion that made the show hard to get into. There were no stakes really. They were always set to win by the writers' hands, even against difficult odds, because one thing would happen and break the Empire's metaphorical neck in the process (TIE Defender crashing into the Arquitens here, Admiral Constantine lookibg for glory with Sato's suicide run, etc.). It never felt organic. The Empire could never win.
Rebels orbit battles are so bullshit I think.
Ah yes, another Star Wars battle where the rebels lose 2 unnamed x wing pilots and the empire loses 9 capital ships. Haven’t had one of those in 5 minutes.
"It may be my favorite SW TV show perhaps behind the Mandalorian"
Andor: Am I a joke to you?
Apart from the fact they really just did the bare minimum. I get the timeline wouldn’t allow a full on set piece battles
But even the Battle of Kamino had an incredible space battle.
I love this show becuase of nostalgia. I can't see anything bad about it.
I want the bad guys to win ALOT! That way when the good guys win there is a pay off .
You make a fair point about the Star Destroyers in the show. For the most part, we don't see them do much other than serve as an imposing presence in the form of a blockade or garrison place holder (we only really saw their destructive power during the season 3 and 4 finales). That being said, I'd have to push back on your point about Thrawn seeming incompetent after the TIE Defender debacle.
I'd argue that the show didn't (intentionally or unintentionally) make him seem like an incompetent commander, but it rather highlighted that his "failure" stemmed from some of the top people under his command being over-confident or rash. Constantine during the season 3 finale serves as an example of that, and I believe Skerris does in this case, too. If I remember correctly, Thrawn told Skerris to disengage, but he continued to pursue Hera. This is what ultimately led to his downfall. And I think it more so highlights that Hera outplayed Skerris, not the Defender itself. We saw the Defender pretty clearly damage Hera's ship, but it was her wit and patience that saved her life.
Thank you for this!
No one talks about this battle. I hated it. Is this the Imperial Star Destroyer now?
I remember back in the day when losing a single ship made Daala feel like an incompetent Commander.
Pft this is pretty much everything I love about Rebels…
The only thing I don’t like about this space battle is that they let the X-Wing fire with it’s s-foils closed, which EU and canon have established cannot work because that would dangerously cause the blaster canons which are too close to each other to overheat and explode. Star Wars Squadrons, which I do like, also unfortunately makes this mistake.
I believe the context of the S-Foils is that its incredibly dangerous, and a mechanically inclined pilot could override and accept the risk if they choose to. Which is definitely a Hera type thing to do.
I was today years old when I learned that X-Wings can fire with the S-Foils closed. I feel like Rogue Squadron lied to me.
Why weren't the Star Destroyers blasting them with their multiple batteries of turbo lasers, was everyone on every ship on their lunch break?! Seriously, the X-wings should have flying into a wall of energized death, instead, theatrics.
The Empire should have won. Those ISDs carry hundreds of fighters. The Empire can deploy its own Corvettes too. The only reason the Rebels won was because the plot needed them to win.
Sure, those Star Destroyers have lots of TIEs but TIEs and their pilots are pretty bad compared to the rebel alliance x-wings, which also has capital ships that could deploy hundreds of fighters. The Empire definitely should have used corvettes though. Personally I think that the Battle of Yavin at the very least makes sense because of the Force.
Thank you! It always bothered me that in Clone Wars, capital ships are active, game changing participants in battles with immense firepower. While in Rebels, they're nothing more than carriers (that dispatch like 2 fighters. For context, a US aircraft carrier is supposed to be like 1/5 the size.) Really bothers me.
Additionally, the switch from Venators to Star Destroyers was supposed to signal a shift from a ship that primarily relies on fighters to a ship with more firepower. But you never get the sense form Rebels.
The only issue i had with the scene is hera firing with the s-foils closed. I think that isnt supposed to be possible, as the cannons generat somuch heat that they need to be spaced out or risk fusing or burning each other out?
Hera: We're going to break through that fleet!
One of the many reasons I have no regrets for dropping Rebels after season 3.
Rebels is a parody of clone wars and the Thrawn trilogy.
I just hate the "no killing" from the rebels, when we all know that's not how it is. It makes sense in bad batch since they are fighting they're brothers, but rebels fighting stormtroopers makes no sense to use stun
Biggest issue I had was lack of background fighting, we could only see like two or three ships at a time whereas modern Star Wars films have massive battles in the background with dozens of fighters you could see at a time plus Lazard literally everywhere, good eye candy haha ZD xxd
I think it's either the style or budget don't allow for amazing space battles, look at Clone Wars it had great space where tactics used but ditches all that for some reason.
This wasn’t budget or style related. In rebels they had rebel corvettes in battle all the time without any problems, but here they are just gone. I bet Dave decided he wanted all the focus on Hera’s fighters and the drama with the TIE pilot rather than having an realistic and logical battle.
Remember this is the same show where kanan one hit an ATAT like it was butter. Rebels is mid tier, good episodes but way to many questionable scenarios.
If we put this battle in an Empire at War game, surely those ISD don't just stand there, the rebels would have been eliminated. Heck, we can even replace the Imperial SD for some Victory SDs instead.
can you PLEASE mention how these isd1s have the 8 octuple barbettes instead of the 6 dual turbolasers
Modified
@@ADMICKEY im pretty sure the team working on rebels was just lazy so they didnt even research the isd1 before modeling it
Before all the rebels haters flood in rushing to complain about how the space battles are always too simple and the good guys always win and "this isn't how it goes when i play empire at war" etc etc, a friendly reminder that those issues are the same across pretty much all of onscreen star wars. Rebels is a fantastic show which doesn't deserve the hate it gets; this was just one scene that could have been improved upon.
Rebels is excellent when its a character driven space pirate, mystical adventure series set during the dark times.
Rebels is an awful military drama, which wouldn't be an issue if the show didn't constantly go back to the war. Every conventional fight feels stakeless and hollow when stormtroopers are the underdogs against some scrappy pirates who can mow down hoards consequence free. When a stormtrooper regularly misses a shot from feet away with a height advantage I tune out. Plus there is no weight to death, the heroes can kill tens of thousands and not feel burdened by their actions even a little bit. The Ghost crew come off as bloodthirsty maniacs. The show reads like it was written by someone whose only idea of war came from old WW2 propaganda movies.
"Avatar the Last Airbender" is a far more responsible kids show about war because life isn't cheap, the heroes actually wrestle with the consequences, and there are actual debates on how to resolve moral and ethical dilemmas.
Who knew that attacking a Tie Fighter Factory would mean lots of Tie Fighters would swarm the Rebels?
It's supposed to be that one in a million chance that beats thrawn.
I dont Like Rebels at all
AND I TRYED !
So much to dislike about rebels with only a few redeeming factors and characters
The best parts of "Rebels" is basically Firefly but Star Wars.
They didn't know how to do a military drama and should've avoided the rebellion parts altogether IMO
It always bugged me a bit how the Star Destroyers and the Tie Fighters looked in Rebels, the former with their long necks, the latter for their stunted proportions.
This issue is a recurring problem throughout the series, and is especially noticeable in season 1 and 2.
It just brings the whole show down from good to average.
Thrawn is my favorite Star Wars character. Rebels did him so dirty I did not even recognize him.
The thing I dislike about rebels is how it turns these strong battleship star destroyers into these paper thin ships that barley do any damage. That goes for the whole empires navy, feels so nerfed. It dosent feel as powerful as it should be, and the weak fire power dosent help.
Rebels' main mistake with the entire Thrawn arc was to give Thrawn too many recourses. He shines when he's the underdog, under equipped, and out numbered. If you give him a fleet and army of any real size then the story has to make excuses as to how any of the good guys ever win. This scene is just yet another example of that. Thrawn has a massive fleet yet somehow Hera has to triumph in part or else she dies, had Thrawn only had 1 Star Destroyer which he couldn't risk then you'd have a much more believable engagement where Thrawn is laying a trap to lure the Rebel squadron into the jaws of his Tie Defender by presenting a weak naval force, this then pushes the Rebels to waste time to try and destroy it, something Thrawn not only expects but plams for; the Defender is a bluff, it's job is to weaken the Rebels sure but it's real job is to distract them whilst the ground based pilots scramble to intercept the Rebels after they "punch" through the "blockade".
Instead Rebels just made Thrawn appear smart but weak, cunning and yet never deadly, undefeatable and yet obviously doomed by the plot in a really unsatisfactory way.
Rrbels does have one of Handos best lines when he is going to help ezra, and you just hear, "Hera, for that boy there is NOTHING i would not do" its just yes hondo be the galactic treasure we all knwo you are
It battles me how anyone can say that Rebels is a better SW show than The Clone Wars.
I’m literally on this episode right now, I had to make sure but it’s literally playing on my screen rn and I was like… wait a second
It was a very bold choice by Disney to recon Star Destroyers to be made out of cardboard.
One scene I absolutely do not like was when those creatures sent Ezra and Thrawn into hyperspace. Without any way to keep the breathable air in, both Ezra and Thrawn would've suffocated. It looked cool but did not logically make sense.
It also didn't make logical sense that the ISD gunners weren't spooked by the ~1km long aggressive space whales and opened fire.
It pretty much is all Filoni and his need for his crew to be the great invincibles. So by extension everyone who goes against them will lose and sometimes spectacularly.