I think some of the most important parts of good romance stories are that the characters are friends before lovers (since romance is basically friendship++) and the characters care enough about each other to care _for_ each other (even if one is better at doing that).
This is probably one case where I really don't agree barring extreme cases like Friends. When you're writing a RomCom, realism and 'healthy' relationships are anathema to the design, as you pointed out. However, a lot of the other things you mentioned - like conflict coming from petty stuff and generally not always being good to one another and/or failing to talk problems out is honestly one of the most real things about Romance stories. 1. People disagree... A lot. *Especially* those in romantic relationships. 2. People lie and act selfishly... A lot. 3. People objectifying / viewing others as conquests... Happens a lot. Though in my experience, not as often as the other cases. Speaking from my own experience specifically, people straight up don't make sense a lot of the time. There's a saying I've learned to keep in mind with any sort of romantic interaction, be it real or fictional: "Love makes people do stupid things." Dozens of relationships I've watched play out as a bystander have been full of the same things that make Romance stories frustrating to you, and unless you're a well-adjusted, particularly mature person and you end up in love with another who's on the same level, you straight up won't get 'healthy' relationships as you've described it. A true healthy relationship isn't the lack of conflict, but rather the means through which it's resolved. Sometimes it's not a straight path, either. People mess up, upset or offend their partner, and in the 'cooling off' period that follows, sometimes people vent, or go off and do dumb things out of anger or wanting to get back at their partner. The crazy thing is, when there really is something there between two people, there's usually a higher than 'logical' chance of them getting back together after a mess up that leads to them separating for a bit. Fiction focusing on romance merely exaggerates this to varying degrees depending on what they're going for. RomComs dial this up to 11 because they're over the top by design, while more 'serious' romances will be more like a 6 or 7. Real romances tend to be 5 or below, barring it being with someone who really doesn't get themselves much less another person, which does absolutely happen. Also, when you brought up the whole 'think of your favorite romantic couple', my mind immediately jumped to my own work... A bit of a cop out, perhaps, since in their case, the story going on isn't about them specifically, and they've been together for a while before the main plot kicks in so they're much more in sync with each other on most things. That's not to say they don't disagree on stuff, or get into fights on occasion, but I'm not writing a romance, so they probably don't count anyway.
The couple I thought of was Odo and Kira from Star Trek: DS9 and they passed -- I think precisely because they weren't intended to be each other's love interests. Their chemistry turned out to be fantastic, and they became closer friends with a deep and intimate understanding of each other over seven years of television, then got together officially in the last season. Not right at the end, but definitely without much time for the Tropes to set in. Otherwise, I generally agree, especially with the note that queer romance is almost always a little more nuanced / well-written. Even truly trashy gay movies I've seen have put more thought into WHY the two characters are attracted to each other than your average blockbuster "well, they're a man and woman in proximity to each other, so OBVIOUSLY they're gonna bang" If you did a companion video on why all fictional sex scenes are unrealistic, I would love that! I've never met anyone else who dislikes fictional sex scenes as much as I do, even when they're done tastefully.
So when you were expecting the audience to pick their favorite romance and asking your questions, I was thinking of the My Little Pony episode The Perfect Pear, which is a kid-friendly re-telling of Romeo and Juliet, no death at the end. I'd say my pick faired pretty well. I mean, there's slightly more than one scene of them being a couple but it's a 22 minute episode from the perspective of the main characters learning about their parents through the stories of their elders so I think it gets a pass. Also, you could argue some of the other movies you featured, like Titanic and Tangled, also fit the forbidden romance trope, though Tangled did have the misunderstanding trope . .
I love this video and 100% agree. although I say this I also do like the simple nature of fictional love, it might not necessarily be realistic but I still find it sweet (I love luz and amity bro, even though they do apply to allot of those traits you mentioned). also I'm happy to say that some of my favourite couples are from a series of unfortunate events and all are relatively realistic.
This is why I like the Sherwood picture films. They produced several films such as Fireproof, War Room and Courageous. The first two are all about resolving troubles in marriage, so when you asked does this sound like my favorite couples, I would have said yes until they sought help and purposefully fixed the issues you are describing, or no because the couples know that teamwork, honesty and self-sacrifice are needed to make a relationship work (This is found in Courageous). Very wholesome and inspiring movies, I would recommend.
You offer a very interesting perspective, and this is coming from someone who has written a "love" story of his own. Some love stories may be a writer's desire to fulfill a fantasy of some kind, which is probably the case with my story, honestly. Oh well 😄😄😄
I have a new reason to despise harem anime. "Who will it be" can give easy conflict without ruining characters, low and personal stakes, time as friends to develop the characters, no need to lean on misunderstandings. But between the cookie cutter everything, wish-fulfillment focus, and tropes that are WAY WORSE, they turn out garbage.
It was around the time I started to write some romance into my story that I realized how incredibly toxic all story romances are. I tried to study how to make the portion where they are together have more depth to it, and I found that romance in movies is really really bad... I just keep thinking: Hollywood is famous for all their marriages falling apart, and these are the people we are trusting to make out love stories?
I think I disagree with this, as there are plenty of examples of healthy couples in cinema that provide plenty of entertainment. Hiccup and Astrid from How to Train Your Dragon come to mind, along with Aragorn and Arwen from LOTR come to mind. I thing a good rule of thumb would be to say, "Watching [insert mundane thing] would be tricky to pull off, and requires good storytelling and characters.
I completely agree with these takes in general, with a few caveats. 1) I believe you are oversimplifying and generalizing the definition of "toxic" for the sake of your argument. For example, you could make an argument that it is not ideal to have one person pine after another, but that happens to such a degree in real life with a resulting healthy marriage/relationship that I find it difficult to label it wholly toxic. 2) I also find it frustrating when I see the hand of the author, or when a plot revolves around relationship conflict--especially when it is contrived. However, you may be underestimating the degree of conflict (mundane, normal stuff) in real, healthy relationships. Stories revolve around the concept of conflict because conflict, or rather our responses to conflict, shapes us as people, and stories are a safe, exciting way to explore the extreme versions of it. I usually heavily dislike the romantic tropes you list here, usually they are pulled off extremely poorly or feel legitimately toxic and a writer is forcing the characters together. I would point to an example you showed in your video: Elizabeth and Darcy in Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice. These two characters spend most of the movie bickering with and despising each other, yet it is often held up as one of the foremost romances in media. I believe the masses are correct here. Austen wrote the two to embody the vices of pride and prejudice, including how each character perfectly espouses both traits. They often fall into character conflict and misunderstandings, including a bit of the "false betrayal" trope, but Austen does a fantastic job of grounding the conflict within the head of each character. By the end of the story, the reader/viewer can see from the POV of each character well enough to understand their actions and care about each individually, lending value to the couple together. To me, this is the correct way to use these tropes in writing a compelling romance. I would agree that 90%+ of written romances are frustrating to read/view, but the compelling ones are compelling for good reason. Thanks for sparking my thought process! I'll subscribe just for that.
You make a lot of very good points, but I also think you might be a little dead inside
very... dead inside.
The poor man.
I don't hate _all_ fictional romances, but _BOY_ do I agree with you about the horrible, terrible trope of the mis-heard eavesdrop.
I think some of the most important parts of good romance stories are that the characters are friends before lovers (since romance is basically friendship++) and the characters care enough about each other to care _for_ each other (even if one is better at doing that).
Exactly
Gomez & Morticia Addams. That's my favorite fictional couple.
Agreed. You can literally _feel_ how much they adore each other.
Bob and Linda Belcher have entered the chat...
This is probably one case where I really don't agree barring extreme cases like Friends. When you're writing a RomCom, realism and 'healthy' relationships are anathema to the design, as you pointed out. However, a lot of the other things you mentioned - like conflict coming from petty stuff and generally not always being good to one another and/or failing to talk problems out is honestly one of the most real things about Romance stories.
1. People disagree... A lot. *Especially* those in romantic relationships.
2. People lie and act selfishly... A lot.
3. People objectifying / viewing others as conquests... Happens a lot. Though in my experience, not as often as the other cases.
Speaking from my own experience specifically, people straight up don't make sense a lot of the time. There's a saying I've learned to keep in mind with any sort of romantic interaction, be it real or fictional: "Love makes people do stupid things." Dozens of relationships I've watched play out as a bystander have been full of the same things that make Romance stories frustrating to you, and unless you're a well-adjusted, particularly mature person and you end up in love with another who's on the same level, you straight up won't get 'healthy' relationships as you've described it.
A true healthy relationship isn't the lack of conflict, but rather the means through which it's resolved. Sometimes it's not a straight path, either. People mess up, upset or offend their partner, and in the 'cooling off' period that follows, sometimes people vent, or go off and do dumb things out of anger or wanting to get back at their partner. The crazy thing is, when there really is something there between two people, there's usually a higher than 'logical' chance of them getting back together after a mess up that leads to them separating for a bit.
Fiction focusing on romance merely exaggerates this to varying degrees depending on what they're going for. RomComs dial this up to 11 because they're over the top by design, while more 'serious' romances will be more like a 6 or 7. Real romances tend to be 5 or below, barring it being with someone who really doesn't get themselves much less another person, which does absolutely happen.
Also, when you brought up the whole 'think of your favorite romantic couple', my mind immediately jumped to my own work... A bit of a cop out, perhaps, since in their case, the story going on isn't about them specifically, and they've been together for a while before the main plot kicks in so they're much more in sync with each other on most things. That's not to say they don't disagree on stuff, or get into fights on occasion, but I'm not writing a romance, so they probably don't count anyway.
Not me only watching this video just because I’m Aroace.
2:03 LUMITY!!!
The couple I thought of was Odo and Kira from Star Trek: DS9 and they passed -- I think precisely because they weren't intended to be each other's love interests. Their chemistry turned out to be fantastic, and they became closer friends with a deep and intimate understanding of each other over seven years of television, then got together officially in the last season. Not right at the end, but definitely without much time for the Tropes to set in.
Otherwise, I generally agree, especially with the note that queer romance is almost always a little more nuanced / well-written. Even truly trashy gay movies I've seen have put more thought into WHY the two characters are attracted to each other than your average blockbuster "well, they're a man and woman in proximity to each other, so OBVIOUSLY they're gonna bang"
If you did a companion video on why all fictional sex scenes are unrealistic, I would love that! I've never met anyone else who dislikes fictional sex scenes as much as I do, even when they're done tastefully.
So when you were expecting the audience to pick their favorite romance and asking your questions, I was thinking of the My Little Pony episode The Perfect Pear, which is a kid-friendly re-telling of Romeo and Juliet, no death at the end. I'd say my pick faired pretty well. I mean, there's slightly more than one scene of them being a couple but it's a 22 minute episode from the perspective of the main characters learning about their parents through the stories of their elders so I think it gets a pass.
Also, you could argue some of the other movies you featured, like Titanic and Tangled, also fit the forbidden romance trope, though Tangled did have the misunderstanding trope . .
I love this video and 100% agree. although I say this I also do like the simple nature of fictional love, it might not necessarily be realistic but I still find it sweet (I love luz and amity bro, even though they do apply to allot of those traits you mentioned). also I'm happy to say that some of my favourite couples are from a series of unfortunate events and all are relatively realistic.
This is why I like the Sherwood picture films. They produced several films such as Fireproof, War Room and Courageous. The first two are all about resolving troubles in marriage, so when you asked does this sound like my favorite couples, I would have said yes until they sought help and purposefully fixed the issues you are describing, or no because the couples know that teamwork, honesty and self-sacrifice are needed to make a relationship work (This is found in Courageous). Very wholesome and inspiring movies, I would recommend.
Fireproof is a movie that needs more attention.
I hate when they treat kisses like drugs
You offer a very interesting perspective, and this is coming from someone who has written a "love" story of his own. Some love stories may be a writer's desire to fulfill a fantasy of some kind, which is probably the case with my story, honestly. Oh well 😄😄😄
i love that this showed up on my recommended
You’ve articulated something ive thought for a long time. And Im a huge romantic. I actually like boring happy couple stuff
Most underrated video in the world
romance in films is basically a guide on what not to do in a real relationship.
I have a new reason to despise harem anime. "Who will it be" can give easy conflict without ruining characters, low and personal stakes, time as friends to develop the characters, no need to lean on misunderstandings. But between the cookie cutter everything, wish-fulfillment focus, and tropes that are WAY WORSE, they turn out garbage.
0:51 what episode of Sherlock is that? I definitely don’t remember that. But it’s been a few years 😅😂
0:28 you’ve got mail is literally perfect though. And yes, I recognized it from a few seconds. 😅❤️
Bob and Linda Belcher 🤞🏽🫶🏽
Hahaha just commented this and saw yours. 💯
It was around the time I started to write some romance into my story that I realized how incredibly toxic all story romances are.
I tried to study how to make the portion where they are together have more depth to it, and I found that romance in movies is really really bad... I just keep thinking: Hollywood is famous for all their marriages falling apart, and these are the people we are trusting to make out love stories?
I'm the 100th like. The level of underratedness thwarts me
I just spoiled Friends for myself. Was it worth the watch? That seemed like a really important plot point, but also really obvious
Great video! I agree with you a lot. More people should see this.... especially those with the " main carector syndrom"
I always say, watching a healthy couple would be boring. They would just be communicating properly and mostly living their regular lives but shared.
I think I disagree with this, as there are plenty of examples of healthy couples in cinema that provide plenty of entertainment. Hiccup and Astrid from How to Train Your Dragon come to mind, along with Aragorn and Arwen from LOTR come to mind. I thing a good rule of thumb would be to say, "Watching [insert mundane thing] would be tricky to pull off, and requires good storytelling and characters.
Pongo and Perdita. Mic drop.
I completely agree with these takes in general, with a few caveats. 1) I believe you are oversimplifying and generalizing the definition of "toxic" for the sake of your argument. For example, you could make an argument that it is not ideal to have one person pine after another, but that happens to such a degree in real life with a resulting healthy marriage/relationship that I find it difficult to label it wholly toxic.
2) I also find it frustrating when I see the hand of the author, or when a plot revolves around relationship conflict--especially when it is contrived. However, you may be underestimating the degree of conflict (mundane, normal stuff) in real, healthy relationships. Stories revolve around the concept of conflict because conflict, or rather our responses to conflict, shapes us as people, and stories are a safe, exciting way to explore the extreme versions of it. I usually heavily dislike the romantic tropes you list here, usually they are pulled off extremely poorly or feel legitimately toxic and a writer is forcing the characters together.
I would point to an example you showed in your video: Elizabeth and Darcy in Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice. These two characters spend most of the movie bickering with and despising each other, yet it is often held up as one of the foremost romances in media. I believe the masses are correct here. Austen wrote the two to embody the vices of pride and prejudice, including how each character perfectly espouses both traits. They often fall into character conflict and misunderstandings, including a bit of the "false betrayal" trope, but Austen does a fantastic job of grounding the conflict within the head of each character. By the end of the story, the reader/viewer can see from the POV of each character well enough to understand their actions and care about each individually, lending value to the couple together. To me, this is the correct way to use these tropes in writing a compelling romance. I would agree that 90%+ of written romances are frustrating to read/view, but the compelling ones are compelling for good reason.
Thanks for sparking my thought process! I'll subscribe just for that.
Are you saying Marge and Homer are toxic?
but then without these toxic traits, the rom coms would suck. they'd be boring af.
Carla and Turk