Some Notes On How The M1 Garand Magazine Really Works, And Some More Myths Dispelled
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
- / blokeontherange
As part of his ongoing quest to increase the total sum of all human knowledge (never knowingly understated is Our Man here) and to wipe out Bad Gen, he takes on a couple of myths and common misunderstandings as to how the magazine and clip on the M1 Garand really function. Not how some Ian Hogg (or whoever) book says they do, but how they really do.
So here we've got why you can't load 8+1, at what point the clip ejects and where the bolt is (so you can't have the bolt held back improperly and still insert a clip), and some notes on the automatic bolt release and what happens when you short-load the magazine with less than 8 rounds. And a little random sidetrack about how little the bolt overtravels...
Here's our Facebook page. Don't visit it, it's not worth it: / blokeontherange
PS - yes, I've seen the editing error. Sorry about that...
Never forget when I got my finger stuck in a sa80A2 bolt clearing a double feed ... basic training was painful but so memorable, love the channel, would love to shoot with you one day
"M1 thumb" is only possible if you're sloppy. Now being in a war zone, I can imagine it happening quite a lot, but a short bit of practice will keep you pinch free on the range or in competition
If your hand is in the proper position while loading, it's basically impossible to get. But not being taught the position for the hand is the problem. (Did get M1 thumb, and M1 index/middle a couple times before I figured it out.)
I could only rationalize getting it if you were just fucking around with the rifle unloaded. If you were loading the rifle it is very impossible to get m1 thumb.
Correct Himmler, keep the clip pressed down in the chamber and all is rosy.
if you're being taught the "palm against the charging handle" from day 1, and it gets in your blood it shouldn't be a problem. but some people aren't taught that. especially when you try to be tacticool and load with your support hand. but i've seen videos showing that if you get your hand away fast, you can do it without the garand thumb.
Or ignore the pain after many fails 😈
I'm convinced that 9 out of 10 actual cases of Garand thumb are from people messing with the rifle when they don't yet know how to operate it. Not during actual loading at the range, but at home while fondling the thing.
I just used wooden dowels to figure out how to operate mine. RIP many wooden dowels.
@@kyleapproved7369 haha press F to pay respects for the fallen wooden dowels
Absolutely. Have had my m1 rifle for 10 years now and have never gotten M1 thumb. Used it in “combat courses” (for fun), stress events, and just normal range firing and I have not gotten it.
100% the case. If the bolt has caught the 1st round when loading there's no way it can also get your thumb. It only happens when you are messing around with an empty gun.
Just played with a M1 Garand today, absolutely love that rifle!
Glad to see you covering "Short Loading". Amazing how many so called experts deny this is possible, and list it as a "serious fault" of the rifle.
In competition I was taught to use this method to load the first two rounds, and then follow that with a full eight round enbloc. The necessary ten rounds in a timed ten round shoot. No one wanted to have a bunch of guys, of varying skill levels, mulling around with rifles that needed to be un-loaded.
Personally I have never seen a person crush their thumb during a loading. My father, who served 57-58, said it only happened during Inspection. You racked the Bolt back before handing it to the Drill Inspector for examination. When it was returned to you - you had to close the Bolt without resting the Buttplate against your body - the rifle might slip and then you could get a crushed thumb. He did it once in Basic, and swears the Drill Sgts. had a competition to see who could get the most crushed-thumbs during Basic.
I crushed my thumb only once during 35 years of shooting them. After a test firing involving the firing of about 100 rifles, they were stacked in A-frame portable racks with the Bolt locked back. An oiled patch was then put through each rifle, and the Bolt closed. Unfortunately it seemed cool to move down the rack pushing in the follower to have the Bolt smack close in rapid order. Caution leaves the room with repetition! One time I was not fast enough. I can tell you why torturing people using their finger nails is SO effective!!!
The other "Fault" I hear is that a detachable magazine always beats an Enbloc system. B&*LL S%^t!!!!! Having fired just about every Battle Rifle - the M1 beats them all in rate of fire till you get to hi-capacity "Assault Rifle" magazines. I will beat an SVT40, MAS49, or G43. I can almost keep up with an M14, and will win after the M14 runs out of mags. With the introduction of AK and M16 the enbloc system truly became obsolete.
Yup. Your break even point for detachable mags over 8 rd en blocs is probably 20 rounds if you're retaining empty mags. Less if you're dropping them on the floor.
My Dad told me that when he went through Basic was they were taught to use the thumb to press down on the clip and quickly to release it to load.Some Joes did get the infamous "M1 Thumb" this way in 1942 for not paying attention.This is what the US Army called the "Dumb Ass Effect".Later when they finally got on the range firing their rifles,they finally learned the use of back handing the charging handle on all positions to load it properly.By the time he was in Korea for the war all the replacements he got were taught to back hand the charging handle when inserting the en bloc clip prior to releasing and slapping it forward for proper seat.
I miss my time in the army, seeing the beautiful Garand! Thanks for the memories!
Great stuff. Several of my M1s don't release the bolt as the clip bottoms in the mag... they require a "bump" to the op rod handle to chamber the first round.
My thoughts on the +1 is that the M1 uses 8 round clips, but has a 7 round internal magizine. Therefore, the M1 has a magazine capicity of 7 rounds and the clip provides a +1 everytime!
It'd be nice to squeeze a 9th round in there, but I'm just a "glass is half full" kind of gent.
Seems I tried several times to squeeze a ninth round into my M1 and either couldn't get it stuffed in with the clip in place or it would jam up when the rifle auto loaded to he eighth round when you closed the magazine.
I know this is an old comment, but I was thinking that just as I scrolled down and read this, the internal magazine only has room for 7 rounds under the bolt, there's an 8th round in the clip which doesn't fit under the bolt and must be fed into the barrel for the bolt to close. In a gun with a box magazine you can load a full magazine into the gun with the bolt closed so I think describing the m1s internal magazine as a 7 rounder is fair since that's all that'll fit under the bolt when it's closed.
It always makes me wonder how some of these stories persist.If you are familiar with the rifle,you know most of the stories are about impossible.Thanks for continuing the "myth busting".I always enjoy the M1 stories.
I appreciate your taking the time to actually debunk these things.I've found that semismokeless thing interesting too.
I had the pleasure of talking to three Royal Marine Korean war vets. Now they fought alongside US marines, and for reasons of commonality were issued Garands. Now the thing they liked about the weapon was the firepower, speed of firing from an automatic loader over a bolt action rifle. But the thing they disliked? The clipper strip ejection “ping”.
Now people (including this channel) will tell you this was not a problem, a platoon of soldiers firing, the ping will be inaudible. But, and these marine vets explained this, in small patrols, sentries or isolated troops at the end of a line, a couple of pings close together could mean a significant decrease in fire for several seconds. And the Chinese troop commanders were wise to this and would charge. This is battlefield tactics 101. You must use every little advantage and learn every single foible of your own equipment and your enemy’s.
*Deferentiates between the Garand's magazine and clip, and pronounces Garand correctly...*
𝖄𝖔𝖚 𝖍𝖆𝖛𝖊 𝖒𝖞 𝖆𝖙𝖙𝖊𝖓𝖙𝖎𝖔𝖓...
The _correctly_ bit is kinda iffy. Because Jean C. Garand himself shifted the pronunciation of his last name (not to mention naturalizing his first name) to fit the American tongue. His father's last name was actually *Garant,* a common-ish last name, which would be pronounced the same as Garand in French, with the T, or the D in this case, being silent.
Garand moved to the states when he was 11, so the case can be made that the Anglicized pronunciation is more 'correct' than the root one. Those are all about degrees of correctness, but no option is actually _the_ correct one.
I have two M1 Garands of 1943 vintage and both are in great working order. Never had any issues with loading or the "thumb"issues. Mine often require a very slight forward tap with the heal of my palm to get the bolt to release. Lovely rifles. Thanks for your video.
Same here. January 43. I don't think I've ever had my bolt go forward without needing to push the charging handle **except** when loading a 7 round clip.
Excellent video. I own M1 Garands and have tried most of the experiments you mention with the same results. I was in the ROTC in high school and we handled/used Garands almost every day. I do not recall a single instance of anyone getting M1 thumb. My memory may not be 100% accurate but I believe I am correct. Keep up the good work.
Good stuff, I never really took the time to look into how the magazine works. Thanks for sharing
It's so nice to see one of these in 308. I kinda feel left out after buying my first m1 and it was a parkerized cmp special with a criterion 308 barrel. 500 bucks ain't bad haha
As a big fan and owner the M1 (though in the much more commonly-chambered .30-06), this video gave me much enjoyment and I learned a couple things as well. Thanks for sharing. :)
I've never gotten m1 thumb (thankfully) but I think it's due to custom work that may have been done by a previous owner. My bolt won't go forward until I pull the charging handle back, even if a full clip has been loaded into my rifle. Pretty cool gun, have definitely put more rounds than I should've through it but it's a rifle not a wall trophy haha
I had heard a lot about how dangerous loading an M-1 was. Thanks for this video. Now I see you just have to be careful.
Very nice vid indeed, stoaty. You're doing an awful lot to make the Garand a real rifle and not a myth. Well done.!
MsG
Love your M1-GARAND videos
Just got my 1st one
1944 Springfield
1945 re-barrel
Stock and everything else appears all matching and original, but stock definitely has character
Stock has what people are calling a Rack Number in 2 spots. Finish is about 70%
Im loving it!
Thank you very much for this video. I have been trying to dispel this BS about getting M 1 thumb from loading an M1 rifle. It is virtually impossible to get the “thumb” when loading unless you absolutely try to , and are the dumbest person to ever draw a breath. On my rifle I have to give it a bump most of the time just to get it to close. Good on you mate, keep up the good work.
have owned one for about 15 years................always wanted one as a kid...........thanks for all your informative video.
Another great video with some more myths about the Garand dispelled! Well done ;)
I love when you say things like "It's impossible for..." You thumb your nose at those gun trolls. 😂😄😂😄
Way to go, mythbuster! Thanks for going through this, very informative
7 round clip is the only time I've ever had mine not require me to push the charging handle forward. It's enough to disengage the holdback, but not enough tension on the rounds to properly fight against the mainspring.
Using your hand against the charging handle would likely stop it, but if you became accustomed to the resistance of an 8 round, but loaded a 7 round, it could surprise you.
One thing I've always wondered is what in the rifle causes the ping. Yes, I know it's the clip getting hit by something, and you usually hear the ping/clang of the clip hitting the ground more than the rifle's ping, but I'm curious as to what in the rifle hits the clip to cause the initial ping.
Ejector most likely
Dieselhead The clip ejector spring is what launches the clip out of the rifle, and often is accompanied by a ping.
M1 Garand videos get tons of regurgitated and often incorrect "facts" or "advice". My M1 Garand video comment sections are always full of internet experts who have never owned or handled a M1.
How are you able to have a large caliber semi-automatic rifle over the pond?
He lives in Switzerland
Oh, cool. I understand that Switzerland allows a good amount of firearms freedom compared to other European countries.
As long as your criminal record is clean you can own any semi automatic handgun or rifle, except for converted full-autos. So machine guns/pistols and select-fire rifles are off-limits but that's about it. Switzerland still has good target shooting scene and a militia based army so good chance the laws will stay this way:)
Although you can own own semi auto rifles in the UK that are NFA items in the US! (But only in rimfire)
Not really true. I can't think of any Euro country that doesn't allow reasonable firearm ownership. Reasonable meaning non-select-fire. The only difference is, and it's the same in Switzerland too for that matter, is that you need to prove you're actually a suitable individual to own such an implement, some countries require you to actually motivate _why_ you should own such an implement, and in several countries you also need to maintain a shooting club membership and participation rate. All of which are infinitely more sane requirements than simply "I can afford it". You'd be hard pressed to find a home in the European countrysides without a firearm or two on the wall / in a safe (requirements depend).
I almossst live for another bloke M1 vid
I just love when an M1 Garand clip ejects, it sounds amazing
I believe the only time you can't hear that ping is in combat or on the firing line when everyone's dinging away and you miss it in the racket.
I've always thought most of the criticisms of the Garand's en bloc clip were nonsense. On balance, it's a remarkably efficient system. The clips were cheap, and easily produced en masse. They added minumal extra bulk to a soldier's load. Because they were meant to be disposable (and were treated as such -- at least in combat -- unlike later box magazines that were also meant to be disposable, such as the M16's), they facilitated fast reloads, because the soldier wasted no time stowing a spent clip the way he would a spent box magazine. They were very fast to reload. All in all, they permitted a WWII or Korean War US soldier to keep up a very good rate of fire with his weapon.
With modern assault rifles, high capacity, detachable box magazines are a better choice. But for an old, full-power, sem-auto only battle rifle, the en bloc clip such as the Garand used has a lot to recommend it.
It's not called a floor plate. It's called a follower where the bolt hangs on.
It will happen during inspection arms, when it hangs up like you shown. The clip is not inserted during inspection arms. but when you go to release the bolt, it lets go as soon as the follower is depressed
I have yet seen a video on youtube that fully explains how the bolt stays open on a M1. The oprod is being held back, not the bolt. I think a lot of modern users are used to bolt being physically held back. In a M1 Garand, it is held back by oprod hidden away. If you take the receiver out, and pull the bolt back, you'll see where the oprod catches and fully understand why the bolt catching the guide/follower plate is wrong.
Either way a M1 Garand slamming on your thumb isn't that bad as people put it. You might at worse get a bloody thumb but otherwise you'd just get a sudden surprise.
Found your vids on Facebook. Loved them.
You complicated something that is very simple
you should make a greasing the M1 video
During WWII, the Army Ordnance Dept. and its suppliers developed a special lubricant for the M-1 Garand, "Lubriplate," which is still available today and works extremely well. It was designed to grease wheel bearings, which is one of the most-demanding jobs asked of lubricants. It is high-T resistant, high-pressure resistant and water-resistant, making it a long-lasting alternative to conventional oils and lower temperature grease formulations.
I enjoy your videos. This debunked sone M1 myths and also gave some useful handling tips. I have one, but i haven't worked with it much. Great rifle though. Keep up the good work.
I hear if you have a full clip and you put all the pressure on the top round the bolt wont strip the top round until you release pressure, so you dont have to hold the charging handle back if you're carefull
1000% Fact
I have an M14 and I'm happy with it. This is as close to an M1 as I can get. It's made by the same guy.
I personally have never had a clip that failed to eject completely. Ordnance personnel told me (years ago) that it has happened when the temperature was below -40 degrees. Perhaps a lubricant failure at that temperature. I have always used good quality ammo(not Russian crap ammo) so I have never had a short cycle. I was chambering a snap cap when the bolt was against the follower and got the M1 thumb after 35 years with the rifle.
wish i could get a garand in australia :(
move here to the united states, we like your kind
You could go to new Zealand to shoot. I was there recently and there was gun shops everywhere
You can though, its only an 8 round magazine when its fully loaded. Apply for a category D and get yourself a real safe, ez as that
Richard Roberson yeah not anymore but I probably don’t have to tell you that...
@@mr3839 "evil can only prevail when good men do nothing"
ya, great video
i want to warn people a bit more.... if the follower has ANY pressure AND the op rod has pressure to the rear...the bolt Will release (also the follower hitting the bottom of the mag well releases the bolt.....not necessarily the 8th round)
so, even with only 4 rounds in....if you accidentally move that op rod, it will close....
most m1 thumbs i think are caused by people not understanding that you pull back on the op rod to release WITH slight pressure on the follower.
think most stuck their thumbs all the way in..pressing the follower to the bottom of the mag well...because thats the only way they knew how to close the action
either that or single load/topping up...my 1943/42/52/47 m1 is kinda worn out....so the slightest tap on the op rod sets it off
ive also never had the clip eject with out getting a proper hold open.....i get a few slam fires, but the thing has never jammed, even after 4 slam fires.
m1's arnt ment to have 4 round burst....
really wish it was easier to get hold of guns like this in the UK that haven't been destroyed
nice vid. Well done.
Excellent video, thanks
it the flower arm that it rest on.
He means "follower", the sliding metal piece that pushes directly on the bottom round.
Love the M1 Garand
Or you could just get a M1A and use a detachable box magazine (be it 10 or 20 rounds).
Best heavy rifle in the world during the war. The Carbine was the best light rifle. 🇺🇸👍🏼
Thanks for the informative clip 👍❤🌹
The nave still uses a modifyed scotsfield a3 for feeding rope for docking and fuling
I see a lot of people say Mosin Nagant is a 5+1 rifle as well. It's definitely not. People with little experience with a certain rifle or pistol just assume these things because past experience with other rifles.
Bloke on the Range mine does, so does that mean the magazine spring is weak? If you want photo evidence I'll send you some.
I accidentally shot my computer screen with one of those german short range rounds... Thought it was a snap cap plus its baby blue which is usually inert... Scare the crap out of me and learned my lesson!
Do you have any dummy rounds that don't resemble tampons? I just keep thinking is that a "heavy flow" round?
It's 2017. (c) 2017.
Duh.
Really it depends on when he actually created the copyrighted Work, but ya I imagine this is post 1 Jan video :)
Love your stuff, but except when loading using the knife edge of the hand, never manipulate the oprod with the hand down and the thumb on the inside. The Army always taught to pull the oprod with the thumb up and on the outside of the rifle, because if it cooked off, your thumb would no longer be in the way as the rod cycled.
I like the M1, but it's learned instantly, and requires some time to be familiar with it.
it wasn't the M1 used in the myth, it was the scotsfeald a1
Great video once again :)
I recently received some surplus .30-06 ammo for my M1 as a b-day gift. I noticed that compared to the ammo I already had, this new ammo has the projectile seated farther forward in the casing than my other ammo. I took it to the range to test it and noticed that after chambering a round of the new stuff, it was extremely difficult to get the bolt to open by manual cycling. I was trying to open it and eject the clip but it took significant effort to get the bolt open. The new ammo is seated in the chamber properly and the bolt fully closes when chambering it, it is just nearly impossible to cycle it out without firing it. My other ammo manually cycles just fine though.
I was wondering if you have ever experienced this or know about this issue. And if so, is it an ammo issue or rifle design. The ammo is head-stamped KA 73, it is 150gr FMJ. Any serious insight you or anyone else can provide would be greatly appreciated.
id love an M1 Garand!
Aww your top handguard is cracked :(
John Ski this comment is old as hell but I’m fairly certain that’s just inletting for the oprod and charging handle
thanks
can you make a tutorial video on using the sights on the m1 garand?
Seems like a lot of these supposed "problems" occur because people don't know tap rack bang. Or, in this case, just rack bang.
If your weapon has a fault, perform immediate action. Rack the bolt, load the next round, fire it. Usually this fixes things.
In layman's terms, just pull the bolt back with good force and let the machine do its job. If it doesn't, clear the weapon and try everything from the top. If it still persists, it's time to clean your weapon.
(Note that if your weapon has gotten to this point you need to be cleaning your weapon far more often. The weapon works best when it's nice and clean, and it will like you a lot more. This applies to all firearms as a rule of firearm ownership. Don't be that guy on the range with a gunky weapon.)
As for the 8 rounds, you could put a cartridge half way into the chamber so that it holds remaining cartridges in place and then slowly release the bold. I think you could use another pair of hands for this though.
The clip can't get down far enough for the bolt to clear the top round. It will always push out the top round so if there's anything else in there it will double feed.
Ive seen an m1 loaded 8+1 before aswell. There was a youtube video showing it but i cant seem to find it anymore
I've never had an M1 thumb issue. The bolt should remain open even after the clip is inserted. If the bolt closes upon feeding the clip, the op rod catch could be worn.
Another good one. The only factor which would improve it is if you were sub'ed for by a crusty USMC senior enlisted man or Warrant Gunner.
I think it's impossible to get Garand thumb if you load in the crip by pushing down on the top round only
curious question.. dont the M1's have a detent that stops the bolt just flying forward when the clip is seated? hence the stereotypical forward slap of the charging handle when loading?
Good to know, Thanks.
Always nice!!
I've always hated the 'M1 thumb doesn't exist and let me show you why' argument. It's extremely easy to avoid at home or in the range. Nobody ever takes into consideration combat conditions. In combat you are being shot at, you're being shelled by artillery, and you have so much adrenaline dumping in your veins that basic motor control, training, and even just the way your standing, on top of weapon wear and tear, cleaning, etc, can all very clearly affect you and the weapon and can easily cause a simple failure like M1 thumb. Next time anyone tries it, try doing it with serious sensory overload.
What was your experience with the blue german practise rounds? I ask because ive only had failure to eject from a non fluted chamber.
Huh. Always thought that there was an actual MECHANISM that you could actuate to keep the bolt open even when you load in a full clip. Then you just tugged the charging handle to let it slip into battery.
Wellp, I've learned.
about that +1 ammo load, could we do that on the other rifles if the bottom of the magazine could be hinged open, such as an SKS
Good gen.
Basically how I imagined it would be
I want one
does the bolt hold open on the floor plate for any mechanical reason? or is it just how the gun was/is made and was overlooked during production?
I can only imagine it's deliberate given how much development these rifles had...
@@BlokeontheRange yeah i would have thought so, maybe used in takedown/disassembly, your guess is as good as mine tho, props for replying on a years old video, big fan of the content 👍
If you don't perform the last (partial-loading) one correctly you WILL get M1 thumb. Just ask me how I know lol. I got it by holding the rifle, and following the bolt home with the round as I struggled with it. Oops and a nice blood blister trophy!
It makes me a little sad that an Englishman knows more about running an M1 than 99.9% of Americans.
I'm sure you're absolutely sick of Garand questions, but how possible is OOB firing on a Garand, short of using the wrong ammunition (30-06 in a .308 spec as you've shown)? I can only think of a disconnecter being worn or breaking off to the point that the hammer releases as soon as the bolt clears, allowing it to drop on the firing pin and detonate a cartridge before the bolt is fully in battery. Am I even in the realm of possibility here?
1:05 Ohh noooo
Shouldn't it be 'Magazine follower' instead of 'floor plate'?
Cheers ;)
I wasn't sure if you could load 9 rounds though. Now I know.
bread patch correct night trail limitation solve.
I want an M1 Garand sooo bad a k98k is cool and mine is extremely accurate but I'd love to have an M1
I just bought one of these and just somehow knew not to load it like that.
I know that US garands have to use m2 ball or similar power ammo does your 308 rifle need specific 308 loadings?
Bloke on the Range thanks for the answer 308 Garands are a rare rifle here in the states compared to the .06 but the cheaper ammo always made them appealing. Plus who doesn't love this machine
Are you sure those are dummy rounds because they definitely resemble the blue plastic training rounds that actually do fire
Note the holes I drilled in the side to remove the powder, and the fired-off primers ;)
From personal experience you get M1 thumb by closing the bolt with no clip in it improperly. This is the only way to get the bolt to slam on your thumb. I know I have tried it (twice). But if you want to talk about smashing a thumb in a bolt talk about the ag42b or the Hakeem both make the M1 look like a safe child's toy. "Ouch"
Thumb guillotines
I've never even heard of 9 round loading. It pretty obvious it wouldn't work when it closes pretty much when u finish loading.
M1 Garand internal magazine actually only holds 7.
Nope.
Ron Lynquist That's the truth. Every time you load an 8 round enbloc clip, it loads 7+1 in the chamber.
Americans are M1 thumbing while English are RimJaming. I really want to see a British handling their Lee Enfield while an American yelling from the pain of m1 thumb
Is that carbon on your thumb, Sapper?!
NAIC gun
Where to buy this?
can you tell us if the myth of "its a en block clip it can't be reloaded halfway" is true people always say you have to fire all 8 but i don't think its true
The 2nd vid ever on the channel deals with all of these normal myths: ua-cam.com/video/o2idYNKWGm4/v-deo.html
Hello sir, may i ask how is it that the Model one rifle isn't legal in the U.K. aren't all semiautomatic reloading smallarms are legal for common people to own?
UK law is wierd, though you can get most stuff legaly but with some stipulations. He is in Switzerland though.
In 1987 a chap called Micheal Ryan fucked it up for us....
My 308 Garand threw brass into my lefty friend's forehead the other day. Happened more than once. Gave him a nice welt. Is this common?
Justin I was at the range once and some guy was shooting at one end of the firing point, and we were getting showered by his empty cases from the other end. We just started throwing them back.