In 1904, 16 mounds were destroyed to build out St Louis Forest Park for the World’s Fair. St Louis used to have a nick name of mound city because of all the mounds which is hard to believe given that there are is just one mound remaining on the StL side of the Mississippi
Sad, but true! Also, St. Louis is still called mound city (mostly in Black professional circles). There's a business downtown on Market, off Jefferson, called "Mound City Sandwich Shop", another one on Olive called "Mound City Shelled Nuts", and the Black lawyers ⚖️ association is called the Mound City Bar Association. Also, there are actually (partially destroyed) mounds still in Forest Park! Art Hill is one!🌄😁
Thanks for sharing. Fun fact: this isn't even the worst thing we did to them. 😢 That road runs right through it, how many people drive over it every day without knowing the history?
Equally impressive is Cahokia’s influence over much of the eastern woodlands, as a whole. A robust economy thrived around Cahokia that extended for 100s of miles in all directions. I live near a few prehistoric mines containing materials relished and heavily utilized by Cahokians. A fascinating ecosystem, indeed!
I have pondered alternative histories where the Mississippi culture develops independently in a manner similar to the Chinese river valley cultures ... with maize rather than rice.
yeah it got me a bit ticked off at 8:14, the horses were reintroduced to the americas by Europeans, and natives who got familiarized with them and started using them are the ones depicted there, from much later after multiple cultural changes and migrations as well as societal pressures. Cahokia's conflict would have been completely horseless.
Ha! Yea that threw me off. The difference between when Native Americans adopted horse riding in the 1600s and the 1200s, would be like talking about the Renaissance and showing an illustration of someone driving a Model T.
@@alecity4877horses been here Europe ain't brung shit here.. y'all think these backward ass half animal half human people who still the smallest potion of the world population really ha that much control and really was so advanced above everyone else.. really need to read books from the 14 15 16 and 17 hundreds to get the real picture we had swords horses and everything. They had. You probably think the Indians died from disease no we didn't only one percent died the rest was here some was saves and some was mixed with the Chinese India phillipino slaves and the white slaves and became a new race but still more indianthan HEATHEN
Interesting background and updates regarding the magnetometer surveys; exciting to see the hidden world below. I've been here once or twice on my visits to the St Louis area; there was a sense of awe and reverence while walking around. Knowing that such a huge civilization was here long before Europeans was quite impressive.
Eric, would you be willing to share the organization that was sponsoring the dig? Or any other tip? I want to come out from CA to volunteer and don't know where to start. Thanks.
@FluffyFluffles Almost every single national park is a "park" because of natural beauty or because it's a world heritage site (like Mesa Verde). Every other man-made structure is a national monument, not a national park. Giving it a national park status would help protect Cahokia more from land developers and bring more attention to its historical significance. The arch is not rich in natural beauty and its only 60 years old. It didn't even exist when a lot of the current national parks were even dedicated as national parks.
It didn't used to be a national park, it was designated in trump's first term and I remember the criticism that they didn't name it a national monument instead. If I remember right Roy blunt buried this in a bill, which we all know no one reads the bills they just lobby to get them passed without knowing the details that are in them
It is for the federal funding though, there is a whole museum and park ground there too, not just a monument. Idrc if it is a park or monument but that is why it is like that. Like another said there is no finite limit on national parks so basically a non-issue. Cahokia would be an awesome national park too, but crucially it is also man-made lol
I was there two summers ago. It's one of those rare places that's really great to explore and learn about and there's not a big crowd. That could be thanks to the rather run down part of town it borders.
I grew up 20 min from St Louis and did not hear about this place until my mid-20s, it was not taught in k-12 school. South STL was covered in mounds which were bulldosed for houses. Ive been to the museum there and the artwork and pottery looks like aztec. I have found several quartz arrow heads walking the creeks, and I know many others who also have found a lot of them in so many places, just 1 person I know has found 1000s over the past 20 years and its spread across a very very large area west of the Mississippi, theres so many found that it makes you really question just how many used to actually live in the area? Absolutely more than they claim. Also, every year they have some people show up for the winter solstice since it lines up with monks mound. There are some very old maps that show the path of the river, it has moved a lot to where it is today, its not far from the mounds.
Why would you finding a certain number of arrowheads lead you to believe researchers estimates of the population at Cahokia are wrong? That's so illogical. There is little connection that can be drawn between the Aztecs and the people of this site. Y'all will literally get on the Internet and say anything with zero evidence or expertise. There is tons of literature on Cahokia is you're interested in educating yourself. Feeding Cahokia is a very interesting recent book, written by an expert. At the least, stop spreading misinformation ffs
A smidge of the archeology for this site would be nice. They used baskets which means you found evidence of baskets filled with dirt? Maybe a shot of actual tools for building the mounds or making breakfast? Using graphics you admit are out of date needs to be filled with something tangible. BTW, PBS rocks with these surveys -- all the rest go for advertising dollars.
There is a terrific museum structure filled with artifacts run by Illinois at the site. Maybe looking them up would provide some non-video data for you.
So, has it now been established that the ancient Cahokians spoke a proto-Siouan language? I know that several modern tribes whose [traditional] languages were Siouan have oral lore indicating that their original homeland was along the upper Ohio River and that they migrated or were pushed westward in pre-colonial times to the upper Mississippi River, which is where they were living when the first French explorers encountered them.
What I find fascinating is how quickly domesticated crops developed, supernatural increase in crop size over what would seem to be an unbelievably short time scale, maize, squash, beans, nutz, wild fruit like pawpaw, blueberry, sunflower seeds and wild rice. RIght out of the ice age these folk were mining copper incredibly early from the great lakes and shipped it down on down along the Mississippi river. Facts are actually stranger than fiction, it's a rabbit hole worth going down. Haplogroup X. Crazy how a natural climate event like the little ice age lasting a few hundred years collapsed their civilization.
It didn’t collapse it fully though. The center (or should i say centers) of power and influence shifted south. In 1539-1540 when De Soto’s expedition was moving through the southeast, they travelled through dozens of towns and cities from Florida to Tennessee to Oklahoma and found many city-states and cultures clearly related to Cahokia.
Maize was developed in a process that took a couple thousand years, one that didn't start until humans had been living in the Valley of Mexico for 10,000 years. It took 1000 years for maize to get from Mexico to Ecuador. That's not "an unbelievably short time scale."
@@Tijereñowhat's more the five nations, excluding the Cherokee, alongside the Natchez and Calusa maintained clear ties to these systems all the way into the English colonial era.
So much ignorance. Nuts wild fruit and berries were never domesticated here. You didn't mention several crops they did grow, like chenopod and little barley. There is so much information out there, and y'all insist on inventing shyt idgi
I found the topic to be very engaging and related to historical events or figures, making it particularly intriguing to learn about. Intriguing involved details about past events, people, or cultures that sparked your curiosity. Historical context: The discussion likely provided background information about the time period and its significance. Engaging delivery: The way the information was presented, whether through storytelling, interesting facts, or vivid descriptions, contributed to your fascination. THANKS PBS
Thank you for making this episode. Such important research. As someone living in NYC, I've thought about the history of urban form on American land. This seems like the quintessential example to learn from!
My father and I traveled to tons of sites like in Mexico, Egypt, and Ireland. We grew up in Iowa. It would have thrilled him to hear this story of where we were! We always revered the indigenous people of the land we ended up on.
Our 8th grade field trip was to drive from Kansas City to STL to see this place. Didn't grasp how big of a deal this place was back then. Definitely do now.
I had the privilege of being a member of the archaeological crew at Cahokia in the summer of 1973. We were uncovering the discoloration left by the buried bases of palisade logs. What an impressive city!
My pet peeve is that artists renderings of Mississippian sites always depict the mounds as green and covered in lawn. Very anachronistic. The grass that the state parks sow everywhere is of European origin, for one thing, and according to Pauketat the mounds would have been dark colored, even black.
Yeah I don't understand that, it's like making the Mesoamerican pyramids covered in vegetation just because that's how they were found. I think it's unlikely they looked like that "in life".
It's important to mention that we don't know what the so-called "Mississippians" (the people who built the mounds) called themselves, nor what the actual name of the territory was. "Cahokia" is derivative of the name of the tribe that came hundreds of years *after* those people had already abandoned it, and "Mississipan" is the name that modern historians and archeologists have given them, based on the fact that they settled near -- you guessed it! -- the Mississippi River. Also, an article that was just published in August of this year disputes the "crop failure" theory (as does the book, "Feeding Cahokia"). Food was plentiful when they abandoned it. The *only* theory that has yet to be refuted (and the one I'm convinced is true) is that they left because of social unrest. The pamphlet that I got from visiting Monk's Mound last month says that archeologists have discovered evidence that human sacrifices (of mostly women!😢) had peaked right before people started leaving. Another reason I'm convinced that people simply got sick of the ruling class and left is because I'm from St. Louis and it's literally happening here right now! 😮 (And St. Louis was a part of Cahokia back then, of course.) Either way, Monks Mound remains as majestic as ever!😍✨
Wow! This is so different than what my wife and were told by the Park Rangers at Cahokia about 20 years ago. We mentioned that some of the artifacts there were very similar to those we saw in the Yucatan and Belize and that they must have been in touch with the Cahokians. We were told something like "their is no connection at all to any known tribes", and it was a scripted response. We pointed out some things and the Park Ranger repeated the exact same response each time and refused to even discuss it. Now, I'm going to offer that the bigger mounds there were built to be used as a place to cool off in the heat of summer after working in the crop fields. Go climb it on a summer day and you'll surely feel the cool refreshing breeze there is up there. It's akin to our "air conditioners". I brought that up with some Park Rangers when I climbed to the top of a pyramid in Guatemala and they were pretty astonished to hear that from an American. They got pretty excited because when they try to tell archaeologists from the U.S. that they don't listen. And they're really disgusted that they always assume those pyramids were used for human sacrifices. That may be true in some cases, but it is not why they were built. They were built to cool off in the Summer heat. Now, if you go to the Tulum Mayan Ruins at Cozumel you don't find any tall pyramids. If you go to the edge overlooking the ocean there is always a nice cool breeze there to cool you off. All that said, if you've not been to Cahokia do go spent some time there if you can. It is truly a National Treasure.
There's this "either/or" idea in many interpretations of societal decline It's either conflict or nature. It seems much fruitful to understand these declines as society and nature as intertwined, it seems odd in fact to consider society apart from environmental, and at this point time even the other way around
Please take more classes on Indigenous theory and sciences. It's been a life changer for me and how I think about creating knowledge. I can't help but notice how anthropologists were the experts brought in first to talk. Why weren’t elders who carry traditional knowledge to this region framing how knowledge was being gathered? Oral traditions and the values imparted can be rich data to frame methodological frameworks. I'm not saying oral tradition is fact, but it should be the backbone for any work with cultures without writing systems.
well it is a white-centralized show. the people who are considered experts only meet one criteria of educational background. you will notice there is also a skew of incorporating christian assumptions about what things are used for as a fairly objective "facts" as well if you go through the videos. it is the limitations of being heavily risk-adverse with what sort of narrative is put out. can't rock the boat if you stick to the hits and the accents should really tip you off on what the hits are :/ that being said as long as you take it with a bit of salt and do extra-curricular research on your own time it is pretty good for getting names and locations right
There are no remaining indigenous groups that are associated with this site. The assertion in the video that the Osage are historically connected is wrong and so easy to disprove. The Osage didn't even arrive in the area until several centuries after the peak of Cahokia, this according to historic evidence AND the oral history of the Osage. The Osage have taken on a roll as protectors of this site in the absence of the original Cahokians. Instead of making a bunch of ignorant assumptions and spreading misinformation, you can always do research
Here's one bit of basic feedback: It would be considerate to refer to dates as being CE (Common Era) rather than the 100% Christian-centric AD (Anno Domini). This applies even more so than many of this channels videos, in otherwise excellent examples like this one that are heavily focused on indigenous peoples, their cultures and their histories.
I think it's important to note that we do not have any definitive evidence of any modern nation directly descending from those that built Cahokia. All of those historically in the region at the point of contact were likely in the Cahokian sphere, however the city is such a crowning achievement it's very alluring to claim it as your own; I hope one day we can uncover a definitive answer, as it would be fascinating to reconstruct these people's history and rightful legacy.
British people claim heritage from stone henge. Despite there being a near total population replacement event and multiple more cultural shifts and invasions between the builders of our prehistoric monuments and now. Why hold native peoples to a higher standard? Sure, it's interesting to research the movements of people and cultures. Just like the research that shows how separated us brits are from our neolithic past. But let people claim association with the ancient monuments of their land. Specially when there are literally just a handful of centuries separating them and nearly everything else has been taken from them
New Madrid paleo earthquake records shows there was earthquake events in 1450 (within a 150 year -/+ timeframe). Very similar in magnitude of the 1811-1812 sequence. After the 1811-1812 sequence, many people left the region. Perhaps this was the case for Cahokia.
First, that was a wonderful video. Thank you. Second, there is a terminology problem in American indigenous cultural studies which it seems important to resolve. The term "North America" is used inconsistently. Sometimes it refers to the entire continent, down to the Isthmus of Panama. Sometimes it excludes Mesoamerica, the region roughly from the valley of Mexico to the Isthmus. This leads to endless confusion. People often abbreviate "North America north of the Valley of Mexico" to "North America" without explaining that usage. I've even encountered a lot of lay people who think the Aztecs and Maya were in South America, because they've heard them dismissed from discussions of "North American" cultures so many times, Am I the only one bothered by this? Are there any plausible proposals for more intelligible terminology for this topic?
wikipedia: There are multiple theories for how Native American people obtained horses from the Spanish, but early capture of stray horses during the 16th century was unlikely due to the need to simultaneously acquire the skills to ride and manage them. It is unlikely that Native people obtained horses in significant numbers to become a horse culture any earlier than 1630. From a trade center in the Santa Fe, New Mexico area, the horse spread slowly north.[27] The Comanche people were thought to be among the first tribes to obtain horses and use them successfully.[28] By 1742, there were reports by white explorers that the Crow and Blackfoot people had horses, and probably had had them for a considerable time.[27] The horse became an integral part of the lives and culture of Native Americans, especially the Plains Indians, who viewed them as a source of wealth and used them for hunting, travel, and warfare.[29]
Where I grew up in St Peter's Missouri had to be part of this. I lived on old man Fry's farm by Harvester Elementary. We lived on the highest hill in the area. We use to find arrowheads all over the place whenever they tilled we would find more after heavy rains even more. In the creeks in the area. On the property was the oldest tree for miles around. Eleven neighbor kids and me my sister and brother could just touch fingertips circled around it. Great hunting and mushroom picking. Of course great farmland. Any tribe in the area would have controlled that area from that hilltop. It was a great place to grow up. Developers I hear destroyed it.
Cool fact, Thomas Jefferson was considered controversial for his time, for theorizing that Native Americans made the lost civilization Cahokia as opposed to the last tribes of Israel.
It is not the first megacity, biggest, or oldest in the Americas, and it is not even the oldest in North America (Mexico is part of North America). Maybe the oldest/biggest/first megacity in what it is today is the United States territory, other than that, not an accurate title/description. Teotihuacan has more than 2000 years of history and is not the oldest megacity in the Americas. "At its zenith, perhaps in the first half of the first millennium (1 CE to 500 CE), Teotihuacan was the largest city in the Americas, with a population of at least 25,000,[3] but has been estimated at 125,000 or more,[4][5] making it at least the sixth-largest city in the world during its epoch.[6] The city covered eight square miles (21 km2) and 80 to 90 percent of the total population of the valley resided in Teotihuacan. Apart from the pyramids, Teotihuacan is also anthropologically significant for its complex, multi-family residential compounds, the Avenue of the Dead, and its vibrant, well-preserved murals. Additionally, Teotihuacan exported fine obsidian tools found throughout Mesoamerica. The city is thought to have been established around 100 BCE, with major monuments continuously under construction until about 250 CE.[4] The city may have lasted until sometime between the 7th and 8th centuries CE, but its major monuments were sacked and systematically burned around 550 CE. Its collapse might be related to the extreme weather events of 535-536."
Where is the evidence that the Osage Nation are descendants of the Cahokia mound builders? I've spent a few minutes looking into it and it seems as though there is none.
Give some distribution of data and artifacts from which they developing a more rich, even dynamic picture of these people What comprehensive data will determine the KIND of picture is possible
Darn. I was in the are in St. Louis in April but didn't know about this site. I would have visited it for sure. I did the see world's largest ketchup bottle, though 😝
Cahokia was a prosperous city in a way, but probably lacked a firm or durably sustainable economic and social foundation as London had (to use the PBS comparison) or as for example Mayan cities had. It seems half center of civilization, half boomtown, with the mass sacrifices, the ball and stick game, the wagering, the cult, etc.
Moreover you neglected to mention that a number of those mounds are literally stacks of skeletons from human sacrfiice. Incredibly disingenuous but politically correct.
I love this episode BUT very important notes! We are NOT amerikkkan! I would love to see more content like this BUT MADE by Native peoples…. Too many European men and not enough Indigenous peoples!
They sacrificed young girls to giant posts and buried them alive. Forced people to build the mounds for decades maybe longer. Horrific. Nobody knows what they called themselves. My family did find a few ground stone axe heads likely from a major city like Cahokia. It’s amazing what they did but it’s also horrifying to know what they did.
It’s only horrifying because today’s society has different values and because of that we think that we are morally superior and that we know better compared to those of the past. But we ourselves to horrific acts ourselves, we ravage the land, pollute the oceans, the air we breathe, yet it seems the society we live in doesn’t value these things as much seeing that we only value money and wealth. So say what you want about human sacrifices, the truth is that if doesn’t change the fact that Mississippian culture was prosperous, but every culture has dark sides, so try not to be biased by your own cultures values.
Oh. Look what the mainstream are finally accepting exists. That's cute. I remember learning about these many years ago and then promptly being told they do not exist.
This reminds me of the book 1491. Said there was controversy amongst historians about the total population in the americas pre-contact. Some said it was sparsely inhabited which would mean the land would look mostly empty from a European perspective. But others argued it was densely populated, which would mean that the European diseases ravaged populations who had never even heard of a white man. That would mean that if disease hadn't destroyed entire populations before hand, then we might still be calling this land Turtle Island 🤔
????? There is a general scholarly consensus that the native population sharply declined in the early contact period due to disease. It's not a controversy
Great episode, Great to hear from Osage Nation people. I think we need a new phrase, "European contact" paints centuries brutal exploitation and genocide as neutral.
Not to be rude. But the host can change for better or another. idk what it takes to be good. But i feel like there should be plenty that are better than the current.
I was born in St. Louis, my family is a Founding Family of the town in 1764, and I know exactly why they built Cahokia the way they did and why it was abandoned. I don't need professors, researchers or PBS to tell me why.
Not sure how much pride someone should derive about the construction of these monuments considering the clear evidence of mass human sacrifice at the site. They were almost certainly built with slave labour.
Like the mass child sacrifice of Egyptian children in the book of Exodus? What about human sacrifice in Norse Culture? Human sacrifice in Carthage? Do you have any source for your claim on slave labor, or did it just occur to you in some random fever dream?
From an anthropological stance, Sure they could have used slaves, but, society at the time was heavily influenced my religion and daily life was not believed to be separate from religion, that being said, it’s most likely the participants thought it honorable to take part in the construction of a monument meant to serve a ceremonial purpose. But from a personal stance, does it make you feel better to put other cultures down, and to usurp Native American achievements? Because for many racists I’ve seen online, they use these kinds of things like slavery and human sacrifice to justify their bigoted perspective of things and use it to try and make others feel bad. You can try not to be so biased next time
If you don't know what happened to the city and people that lived there... how can you say that the descendants of the Cahokia people are helping with the research? You'd have to have some sort of record to tell you if you're a descendant. So someone's not telling the truth.
This is a 12 minute video on an extremely complex topic, if you want to learn more I highly recommend you find a book about it. But to address your comment The way we know who the descendants of these people are is through the modern cultures that surround the area today and comparing their art, mythology and oral tradition to the archaeological work done at these sights. There are certain iconography and motifs that persist through time where we can track them through different cultures at other sites at different points in time this way we can see how it evolved.
In 1904, 16 mounds were destroyed to build out St Louis Forest Park for the World’s Fair. St Louis used to have a nick name of mound city because of all the mounds which is hard to believe given that there are is just one mound remaining on the StL side of the Mississippi
💔
Sad, but true! Also, St. Louis is still called mound city (mostly in Black professional circles). There's a business downtown on Market, off Jefferson, called "Mound City Sandwich Shop", another one on Olive called "Mound City Shelled Nuts", and the Black lawyers ⚖️ association is called the Mound City Bar Association. Also, there are actually (partially destroyed) mounds still in Forest Park! Art Hill is one!🌄😁
Thanks for sharing. Fun fact: this isn't even the worst thing we did to them. 😢 That road runs right through it, how many people drive over it every day without knowing the history?
@@shroomzzz Good point!🫠
Sounds about white.
Equally impressive is Cahokia’s influence over much of the eastern woodlands, as a whole. A robust economy thrived around Cahokia that extended for 100s of miles in all directions. I live near a few prehistoric mines containing materials relished and heavily utilized by Cahokians. A fascinating ecosystem, indeed!
I have pondered alternative histories where the Mississippi culture develops independently in a manner similar to the Chinese river valley cultures ... with maize rather than rice.
I'm from Blytheville, Arkansas. My town runs along the levee for the Mississippi River. Those mounds are everywhere.
I'm working on a map for "Timberborn" that is based on Cahokia.
They look like celtic hill forts and mounds.. pretty cool how humans just have this instict to build mounds and pyramids. Great video
They don't they built them because of flooding
Or they could be much older than thought and became inhabited again
Excellent short video on a site that I have always been fascinated with. Thank you PBS.
No horses in the illustrations please!
yeah it got me a bit ticked off at 8:14, the horses were reintroduced to the americas by Europeans, and natives who got familiarized with them and started using them are the ones depicted there, from much later after multiple cultural changes and migrations as well as societal pressures. Cahokia's conflict would have been completely horseless.
Ha! Yea that threw me off. The difference between when Native Americans adopted horse riding in the 1600s and the 1200s, would be like talking about the Renaissance and showing an illustration of someone driving a Model T.
@@alecity4877horses been here Europe ain't brung shit here.. y'all think these backward ass half animal half human people who still the smallest potion of the world population really ha that much control and really was so advanced above everyone else.. really need to read books from the 14 15 16 and 17 hundreds to get the real picture we had swords horses and everything. They had. You probably think the Indians died from disease no we didn't only one percent died the rest was here some was saves and some was mixed with the Chinese India phillipino slaves and the white slaves and became a new race but still more indianthan HEATHEN
@@AB-wf8ekno it's not
@charlesbranscomb8493 How so? The Model T was invented in the 1920s. If you go back 400 years, it would be the 1520s.
Interesting background and updates regarding the magnetometer surveys; exciting to see the hidden world below. I've been here once or twice on my visits to the St Louis area; there was a sense of awe and reverence while walking around. Knowing that such a huge civilization was here long before Europeans was quite impressive.
3:58 That's some impressive driving
😂😂😂
I am an archaeology student and I participated in an excavation at this site for a month. So glad it's being given the recognition it deserves.
bunch of woke liberals are really trying to avoid calling them savages and they definitely that too.
Eric, would you be willing to share the organization that was sponsoring the dig? Or any other tip? I want to come out from CA to volunteer and don't know where to start. Thanks.
Absolutely Wonderful.
The St. Louis arch should not be a national park, but Cahokia absolutely should be.
What's wrong with the arch? It's not like there's a finite number, they can both be parks.
@FluffyFluffles Almost every single national park is a "park" because of natural beauty or because it's a world heritage site (like Mesa Verde). Every other man-made structure is a national monument, not a national park. Giving it a national park status would help protect Cahokia more from land developers and bring more attention to its historical significance. The arch is not rich in natural beauty and its only 60 years old. It didn't even exist when a lot of the current national parks were even dedicated as national parks.
It didn't used to be a national park, it was designated in trump's first term and I remember the criticism that they didn't name it a national monument instead. If I remember right Roy blunt buried this in a bill, which we all know no one reads the bills they just lobby to get them passed without knowing the details that are in them
@@grantmosal5475 100%
It is for the federal funding though, there is a whole museum and park ground there too, not just a monument. Idrc if it is a park or monument but that is why it is like that. Like another said there is no finite limit on national parks so basically a non-issue. Cahokia would be an awesome national park too, but crucially it is also man-made lol
Culture is not a museum, it is alive.
And -- like the proverbial river -- culture is everchanging.
I was there two summers ago. It's one of those rare places that's really great to explore and learn about and there's not a big crowd. That could be thanks to the rather run down part of town it borders.
I grew up 20 min from St Louis and did not hear about this place until my mid-20s, it was not taught in k-12 school. South STL was covered in mounds which were bulldosed for houses. Ive been to the museum there and the artwork and pottery looks like aztec. I have found several quartz arrow heads walking the creeks, and I know many others who also have found a lot of them in so many places, just 1 person I know has found 1000s over the past 20 years and its spread across a very very large area west of the Mississippi, theres so many found that it makes you really question just how many used to actually live in the area? Absolutely more than they claim. Also, every year they have some people show up for the winter solstice since it lines up with monks mound. There are some very old maps that show the path of the river, it has moved a lot to where it is today, its not far from the mounds.
Why would you finding a certain number of arrowheads lead you to believe researchers estimates of the population at Cahokia are wrong? That's so illogical. There is little connection that can be drawn between the Aztecs and the people of this site. Y'all will literally get on the Internet and say anything with zero evidence or expertise. There is tons of literature on Cahokia is you're interested in educating yourself. Feeding Cahokia is a very interesting recent book, written by an expert. At the least, stop spreading misinformation ffs
A smidge of the archeology for this site would be nice. They used baskets which means you found evidence of baskets filled with dirt? Maybe a shot of actual tools for building the mounds or making breakfast? Using graphics you admit are out of date needs to be filled with something tangible. BTW, PBS rocks with these surveys -- all the rest go for advertising dollars.
There is a terrific museum structure filled with artifacts run by Illinois at the site. Maybe looking them up would provide some non-video data for you.
So, has it now been established that the ancient Cahokians spoke a proto-Siouan language?
I know that several modern tribes whose [traditional] languages were Siouan have oral lore indicating that their original homeland was along the upper Ohio River and that they migrated or were pushed westward in pre-colonial times to the upper Mississippi River, which is where they were living when the first French explorers encountered them.
No, the video is wrong. Thank you for being a rare voice of reason in this disaster of a comment section
Thank you for acknowledging the people.
More Indigenous Oriented episodes.
Great video!
What I find fascinating is how quickly domesticated crops developed, supernatural increase in crop size over what would seem to be an unbelievably short time scale, maize, squash, beans, nutz, wild fruit like pawpaw, blueberry, sunflower seeds and wild rice. RIght out of the ice age these folk were mining copper incredibly early from the great lakes and shipped it down on down along the Mississippi river. Facts are actually stranger than fiction, it's a rabbit hole worth going down. Haplogroup X. Crazy how a natural climate event like the little ice age lasting a few hundred years collapsed their civilization.
It didn’t collapse it fully though. The center (or should i say centers) of power and influence shifted south. In 1539-1540 when De Soto’s expedition was moving through the southeast, they travelled through dozens of towns and cities from Florida to Tennessee to Oklahoma and found many city-states and cultures clearly related to Cahokia.
Maize was developed in a process that took a couple thousand years, one that didn't start until humans had been living in the Valley of Mexico for 10,000 years. It took 1000 years for maize to get from Mexico to Ecuador. That's not "an unbelievably short time scale."
@@Tijereñowhat's more the five nations, excluding the Cherokee, alongside the Natchez and Calusa maintained clear ties to these systems all the way into the English colonial era.
@@heremapping4484just no lmao
So much ignorance. Nuts wild fruit and berries were never domesticated here. You didn't mention several crops they did grow, like chenopod and little barley. There is so much information out there, and y'all insist on inventing shyt idgi
The unfortunate part is the 4 lane highway (and random residential house) smack dab in the middle of a world heritage site.
That’s sick and depraved for them to do that
Pretty amazing I've never heard of this place. Also your drone pilot gets some good shots!
I found the topic to be very engaging and related to historical events or figures, making it particularly intriguing to learn about.
Intriguing involved details about past events, people, or cultures that sparked your curiosity.
Historical context:
The discussion likely provided background information about the time period and its significance.
Engaging delivery:
The way the information was presented, whether through storytelling, interesting facts, or vivid descriptions, contributed to your fascination. THANKS PBS
Thank you for making this episode. Such important research. As someone living in NYC, I've thought about the history of urban form on American land. This seems like the quintessential example to learn from!
My father and I traveled to tons of sites like in Mexico, Egypt, and Ireland.
We grew up in Iowa. It would have thrilled him to hear this story of where we were! We always revered the indigenous people of the land we ended up on.
Our 8th grade field trip was to drive from Kansas City to STL to see this place. Didn't grasp how big of a deal this place was back then. Definitely do now.
I had the privilege of being a member of the archaeological crew at Cahokia in the summer of 1973. We were uncovering the discoloration left by the buried bases of palisade logs. What an impressive city!
My pet peeve is that artists renderings of Mississippian sites always depict the mounds as green and covered in lawn. Very anachronistic. The grass that the state parks sow everywhere is of European origin, for one thing, and according to Pauketat the mounds would have been dark colored, even black.
Yeah I don't understand that, it's like making the Mesoamerican pyramids covered in vegetation just because that's how they were found. I think it's unlikely they looked like that "in life".
Excellent production, much appreciated!👍 Good info to update Wikipedia articles.
This was really great- I had no idea this existed before today!
Id be interested to know what lies under St. Louis, there mounds there too but were destroyed when the city expanded. Great video
PBS is incredible. Thank you for your amazing work.
Pbs keep up all Europe's lies about my land
@charlesbranscomb8493 - ok derp lol
This is fantastic to me.
A Canadian boy. To heck with Egypt, this is way cool. Bring it on
It's important to mention that we don't know what the so-called "Mississippians" (the people who built the mounds) called themselves, nor what the actual name of the territory was. "Cahokia" is derivative of the name of the tribe that came hundreds of years *after* those people had already abandoned it, and "Mississipan" is the name that modern historians and archeologists have given them, based on the fact that they settled near -- you guessed it! -- the Mississippi River. Also, an article that was just published in August of this year disputes the "crop failure" theory (as does the book, "Feeding Cahokia"). Food was plentiful when they abandoned it. The *only* theory that has yet to be refuted (and the one I'm convinced is true) is that they left because of social unrest. The pamphlet that I got from visiting Monk's Mound last month says that archeologists have discovered evidence that human sacrifices (of mostly women!😢) had peaked right before people started leaving. Another reason I'm convinced that people simply got sick of the ruling class and left is because I'm from St. Louis and it's literally happening here right now! 😮 (And St. Louis was a part of Cahokia back then, of course.) Either way, Monks Mound remains as majestic as ever!😍✨
Thank you for providing this video.
This is terrific!
Cahokia has always astonished me
I guess I've watched too much Time Team, but was waiting for what the scans showed.
I wanna hear Tony Robinson say "geophys"
Wow! This is so different than what my wife and were told by the Park Rangers at Cahokia about 20 years ago. We mentioned that some of the artifacts there were very similar to those we saw in the Yucatan and Belize and that they must have been in touch with the Cahokians. We were told something like "their is no connection at all to any known tribes", and it was a scripted response. We pointed out some things and the Park Ranger repeated the exact same response each time and refused to even discuss it.
Now, I'm going to offer that the bigger mounds there were built to be used as a place to cool off in the heat of summer after working in the crop fields. Go climb it on a summer day and you'll surely feel the cool refreshing breeze there is up there. It's akin to our "air conditioners".
I brought that up with some Park Rangers when I climbed to the top of a pyramid in Guatemala and they were pretty astonished to hear that from an American. They got pretty excited because when they try to tell archaeologists from the U.S. that they don't listen. And they're really disgusted that they always assume those pyramids were used for human sacrifices. That may be true in some cases, but it is not why they were built. They were built to cool off in the Summer heat.
Now, if you go to the Tulum Mayan Ruins at Cozumel you don't find any tall pyramids. If you go to the edge overlooking the ocean there is always a nice cool breeze there to cool you off.
All that said, if you've not been to Cahokia do go spent some time there if you can. It is truly a National Treasure.
I love how you threw in hate and racism about how people see them when most people don't even know they exist.
There's this "either/or" idea in many interpretations of societal decline It's either conflict or nature. It seems much fruitful to understand these declines as society and nature as intertwined, it seems odd in fact to consider society apart from environmental, and at this point time even the other way around
Please take more classes on Indigenous theory and sciences. It's been a life changer for me and how I think about creating knowledge.
I can't help but notice how anthropologists were the experts brought in first to talk. Why weren’t elders who carry traditional knowledge to this region framing how knowledge was being gathered? Oral traditions and the values imparted can be rich data to frame methodological frameworks. I'm not saying oral tradition is fact, but it should be the backbone for any work with cultures without writing systems.
well it is a white-centralized show. the people who are considered experts only meet one criteria of educational background. you will notice there is also a skew of incorporating christian assumptions about what things are used for as a fairly objective "facts" as well if you go through the videos. it is the limitations of being heavily risk-adverse with what sort of narrative is put out. can't rock the boat if you stick to the hits and the accents should really tip you off on what the hits are :/
that being said as long as you take it with a bit of salt and do extra-curricular research on your own time it is pretty good for getting names and locations right
There are no remaining indigenous groups that are associated with this site. The assertion in the video that the Osage are historically connected is wrong and so easy to disprove. The Osage didn't even arrive in the area until several centuries after the peak of Cahokia, this according to historic evidence AND the oral history of the Osage. The Osage have taken on a roll as protectors of this site in the absence of the original Cahokians. Instead of making a bunch of ignorant assumptions and spreading misinformation, you can always do research
@@technopoptartwhat the hell are you going on about? Y'all's ignorance is truly terrifying
Here's one bit of basic feedback: It would be considerate to refer to dates as being CE (Common Era) rather than the 100% Christian-centric AD (Anno Domini).
This applies even more so than many of this channels videos, in otherwise excellent examples like this one that are heavily focused on indigenous peoples, their cultures and their histories.
YAY OVERVIEW
❤❤❤❤ god bless your research
It looks so peaceful now.
Cahokia Mounds are the best Civ 6 tile improvement you get from city state sovereignty. Great for gold and food. Did they get it right at Firaxis?
Thank you 🙏🏼
I think it's important to note that we do not have any definitive evidence of any modern nation directly descending from those that built Cahokia. All of those historically in the region at the point of contact were likely in the Cahokian sphere, however the city is such a crowning achievement it's very alluring to claim it as your own; I hope one day we can uncover a definitive answer, as it would be fascinating to reconstruct these people's history and rightful legacy.
British people claim heritage from stone henge. Despite there being a near total population replacement event and multiple more cultural shifts and invasions between the builders of our prehistoric monuments and now. Why hold native peoples to a higher standard? Sure, it's interesting to research the movements of people and cultures. Just like the research that shows how separated us brits are from our neolithic past. But let people claim association with the ancient monuments of their land. Specially when there are literally just a handful of centuries separating them and nearly everything else has been taken from them
Given what we know about European cities in the middle ages, Cahokia was probably a much cleaner (and more pleasant) place to live than London.
I wonder why these parts of history are often forgotten ?
You think it isn’t done deliberately?
New Madrid paleo earthquake records shows there was earthquake events in 1450 (within a 150 year -/+ timeframe). Very similar in magnitude of the 1811-1812 sequence. After the 1811-1812 sequence, many people left the region. Perhaps this was the case for Cahokia.
Plague. It's always a plague.
In this part of the world, it's normally drought or some other meteorological change
Cahokia Moun pretty similar with Gunung Padang in Indonesia
First, that was a wonderful video. Thank you.
Second, there is a terminology problem in American indigenous cultural studies which it seems important to resolve. The term "North America" is used inconsistently. Sometimes it refers to the entire continent, down to the Isthmus of Panama. Sometimes it excludes Mesoamerica, the region roughly from the valley of Mexico to the Isthmus.
This leads to endless confusion. People often abbreviate "North America north of the Valley of Mexico" to "North America" without explaining that usage. I've even encountered a lot of lay people who think the Aztecs and Maya were in South America, because they've heard them dismissed from discussions of "North American" cultures so many times,
Am I the only one bothered by this? Are there any plausible proposals for more intelligible terminology for this topic?
Interesting 🤔
wikipedia: There are multiple theories for how Native American people obtained horses from the Spanish, but early capture of stray horses during the 16th century was unlikely due to the need to simultaneously acquire the skills to ride and manage them. It is unlikely that Native people obtained horses in significant numbers to become a horse culture any earlier than 1630. From a trade center in the Santa Fe, New Mexico area, the horse spread slowly north.[27] The Comanche people were thought to be among the first tribes to obtain horses and use them successfully.[28] By 1742, there were reports by white explorers that the Crow and Blackfoot people had horses, and probably had had them for a considerable time.[27] The horse became an integral part of the lives and culture of Native Americans, especially the Plains Indians, who viewed them as a source of wealth and used them for hunting, travel, and warfare.[29]
The mounds look like the pyramids of Mexico. Is there any evidence of sun worship and human sacrifice?
Yes both along with mesoamerican relics
Born and raised in St. Louis MO, why the hell I never here about this stuff (I know why) but I want more of this in my city gossip
Where I grew up in St Peter's Missouri had to be part of this. I lived on old man Fry's farm by Harvester Elementary. We lived on the highest hill in the area. We use to find arrowheads all over the place whenever they tilled we would find more after heavy rains even more. In the creeks in the area. On the property was the oldest tree for miles around. Eleven neighbor kids and me my sister and brother could just touch fingertips circled around it. Great hunting and mushroom picking. Of course great farmland. Any tribe in the area would have controlled that area from that hilltop. It was a great place to grow up. Developers I hear destroyed it.
Indigenous content is paramount.
Some of them went west and became the Ohlone and built mounds out in California and other places.
not this
Cool fact, Thomas Jefferson was considered controversial for his time, for theorizing that Native Americans made the lost civilization Cahokia as opposed to the last tribes of Israel.
It is not the first megacity, biggest, or oldest in the Americas, and it is not even the oldest in North America (Mexico is part of North America). Maybe the oldest/biggest/first megacity in what it is today is the United States territory, other than that, not an accurate title/description. Teotihuacan has more than 2000 years of history and is not the oldest megacity in the Americas.
"At its zenith, perhaps in the first half of the first millennium (1 CE to 500 CE), Teotihuacan was the largest city in the Americas, with a population of at least 25,000,[3] but has been estimated at 125,000 or more,[4][5] making it at least the sixth-largest city in the world during its epoch.[6]
The city covered eight square miles (21 km2) and 80 to 90 percent of the total population of the valley resided in Teotihuacan. Apart from the pyramids, Teotihuacan is also anthropologically significant for its complex, multi-family residential compounds, the Avenue of the Dead, and its vibrant, well-preserved murals. Additionally, Teotihuacan exported fine obsidian tools found throughout Mesoamerica. The city is thought to have been established around 100 BCE, with major monuments continuously under construction until about 250 CE.[4] The city may have lasted until sometime between the 7th and 8th centuries CE, but its major monuments were sacked and systematically burned around 550 CE. Its collapse might be related to the extreme weather events of 535-536."
It got devoured.
Is that image with horses anachronistic?
Question : why don’t they dig out the site ?
When you sit something you destroy it. It is like asking why we don't dig up the pyramids of giza, the answer is obvious.
Haters will say aliens built it.
They experienced a mini ice age you’re not saying they had climate change happened & has been happening since forever
Where is the evidence that the Osage Nation are descendants of the Cahokia mound builders? I've spent a few minutes looking into it and it seems as though there is none.
Give some distribution of data and artifacts from which they developing a more rich, even dynamic picture of these people
What comprehensive data will determine the KIND of picture is possible
Do you really think they were barely using any clothes as depicted in your cartoons?
There are plenty of ways to learn about native dress during the protohistoric period, but asking in a comment isn't one of them lmao
This was really poorly researched. Y'all need to do better
This wasn't "America's" ancient city. America didn't even exist then.
Darn. I was in the are in St. Louis in April but didn't know about this site. I would have visited it for sure. I did the see world's largest ketchup bottle, though 😝
They are in basically the same town. The mounds are less than a mile west of Collinsville which is where the “catsup” bottle is.
More videos of indigenous history, please!
"north of Mexico" :-)
8:15 this is misleading. America before European contact did not have horses
Horses are indigenous to the Americas. Mostly likely the Natives used them prior to becoming extinct in the region.
@@musashi-san____1409 complete BS
@@slefadeefade83 Sure, dafty.
Cahokia was a prosperous city in a way, but probably lacked a firm or durably sustainable economic and social foundation as London had (to use the PBS comparison) or as for example Mayan cities had. It seems half center of civilization, half boomtown, with the mass sacrifices, the ball and stick game, the wagering, the cult, etc.
Moreover you neglected to mention that a number of those mounds are literally stacks of skeletons from human sacrfiice. Incredibly disingenuous but politically correct.
I love this episode BUT very important notes!
We are NOT amerikkkan!
I would love to see more content like this BUT MADE by Native peoples….
Too many European men and not enough Indigenous peoples!
They sacrificed young girls to giant posts and buried them alive. Forced people to build the mounds for decades maybe longer. Horrific. Nobody knows what they called themselves. My family did find a few ground stone axe heads likely from a major city like Cahokia. It’s amazing what they did but it’s also horrifying to know what they did.
It’s only horrifying because today’s society has different values and because of that we think that we are morally superior and that we know better compared to those of the past. But we ourselves to horrific acts ourselves, we ravage the land, pollute the oceans, the air we breathe, yet it seems the society we live in doesn’t value these things as much seeing that we only value money and wealth. So say what you want about human sacrifices, the truth is that if doesn’t change the fact that Mississippian culture was prosperous, but every culture has dark sides, so try not to be biased by your own cultures values.
Oh. Look what the mainstream are finally accepting exists. That's cute.
I remember learning about these many years ago and then promptly being told they do not exist.
This reminds me of the book 1491. Said there was controversy amongst historians about the total population in the americas pre-contact. Some said it was sparsely inhabited which would mean the land would look mostly empty from a European perspective. But others argued it was densely populated, which would mean that the European diseases ravaged populations who had never even heard of a white man. That would mean that if disease hadn't destroyed entire populations before hand, then we might still be calling this land Turtle Island 🤔
????? There is a general scholarly consensus that the native population sharply declined in the early contact period due to disease. It's not a controversy
Why does everyone call it turtle island these days 💀
@@opalexent oh good. I read that book a long time ago. Thanks for the update
To show drawings of Indians on horses , is really silly 😂
Great episode, Great to hear from Osage Nation people.
I think we need a new phrase, "European contact" paints centuries brutal exploitation and genocide as neutral.
You mean before Europeans destroyed it
Cry more 😏🫵
decline started around 1250 CE, not sure if you made it 8 minutes into the video
It fell before Europeans. Not all of Americas history involved Europeans….
literally at 0:40 "why was it abandoned before Colombus set foot at America".
Try watching a video before you comment on it
Not to be rude. But the host can change for better or another.
idk what it takes to be good. But i feel like there should be plenty that are better than the current.
They elected a Democrat mayor and then their society fell apart.
They don’t elect anyone
@SpectreNDN I think you missed the joke.
I was born in St. Louis, my family is a Founding Family of the town in 1764, and I know exactly why they built Cahokia the way they did and why it was abandoned. I don't need professors, researchers or PBS to tell me why.
Not sure how much pride someone should derive about the construction of these monuments considering the clear evidence of mass human sacrifice at the site.
They were almost certainly built with slave labour.
Like the mass child sacrifice of Egyptian children in the book of Exodus? What about human sacrifice in Norse Culture? Human sacrifice in Carthage?
Do you have any source for your claim on slave labor, or did it just occur to you in some random fever dream?
@@dain6250truly. Even some of the supposed evidence of mass slave sacrifice, like the interred of mound 72, have in recent years seen re-evaluation.
Lol y'all will say anything
From an anthropological stance, Sure they could have used slaves, but, society at the time was heavily influenced my religion and daily life was not believed to be separate from religion, that being said, it’s most likely the participants thought it honorable to take part in the construction of a monument meant to serve a ceremonial purpose.
But from a personal stance, does it make you feel better to put other cultures down, and to usurp Native American achievements? Because for many racists I’ve seen online, they use these kinds of things like slavery and human sacrifice to justify their bigoted perspective of things and use it to try and make others feel bad. You can try not to be so biased next time
@@dain6250 Exodus isn’t real, and if it were I don’t think someone should derive pride from that either.
America's First Megacity is Teotihuacan.
If you don't know what happened to the city and people that lived there... how can you say that the descendants of the Cahokia people are helping with the research? You'd have to have some sort of record to tell you if you're a descendant. So someone's not telling the truth.
This is a 12 minute video on an extremely complex topic, if you want to learn more I highly recommend you find a book about it.
But to address your comment The way we know who the descendants of these people are is through the modern cultures that surround the area today and comparing their art, mythology and oral tradition to the archaeological work done at these sights. There are certain iconography and motifs that persist through time where we can track them through different cultures at other sites at different points in time this way we can see how it evolved.
@@SpectreNDN nope.
Wéwina. Mąðį́hka škaškáða.
I live 5 minutes from it. It is so beautiful!!!