What the screenwriters were thinking when they added scene where Snape was holding Lily's dead body in the film, because that never happened in the Book. It didn't make any sense. He didn't know the actual locations of the Potters who were hiding from Lord Voldemort. When he was in Dumbledore's office and found out that Lily died, he was completely devastated.
Yeah I really didn't like this addition in the movie, it felt really out of place to me. Also it's a bit weird thinking he probably stepped over James' body to get to her and hug her. I mean she was married to someone else...
I think that scene made everyone fall in love with him and also the warewolf scene from the 3d movie yes they were completely out of place for his book character but not really for the movie one and honestly they were enough to make 14 yo me go 😢😍
@@DekaNovelist Exactly! I found it kind of unsympathetic. The scene has no sound and only has evocative music overlayed, but if you think about it for 3 seconds…he’s cradling Lily’s dead body while her literal baby is crying right behind him 😐
@@RiseeRee Yeah, it felt out of nowhere. And Snape never knew where the Potters lived. We already saw how Snape reacted to her death in the books even.
The bit where Snape tries to poison his 13-year-old student's pet, then punishes the student when the pet is OK... Yeah. And Neville did make the potion right with some extra help, which means he is actually capable of making some progress in the subject with a the right guidance. So what does Snape do when the student finally has a bit of success in class? Collective punishment. Shit teacher.
Lol yeah one example of many of Snape being awful. There was no reason for him to bully students as much as he did, and him being a double agent doesn't excuse it. Neville would have probably ended up having a nervous breakdown if no one helped him.
I don't like how far Snape book's characterization goes at all. Like, yeah, he's more complex, but JK does very little to reedem him at the end. I find the twist in the movies easier to buy because they toned his children-bullying down, but yet, he's more interesting in the books. I just can't stand Harry not having complex feelings about the man who bullied him his entire youth, and naming his own son after him. The final book treats Snape like a whitewashed hero after the twist. He's a complicated character, I like both versions of him very much. Both are good, both have their own advantadges and flaws.
Yeah as you said they're very different interpretations of the character. I personally prefer the book version, although I don't like him as a person, but I do appreciate Alan Rickman's portrayal as well. It's definitely not offensive like the Voldemort and Dumbledore movie portrayals are.
Not only did Snape bullied Harry during his entire youth. he was also the one who told Voldemort about the Prophecy, ergo, Snape is co-responsible for the death of Harry's parents and thus co-responsible for all the years of abuse by the Dursleys Harry had to endure.
I always felt bad that Harry learned what made Snape so terrible and he couldn't ask his parents about it, and his dad's friends gave the whole "it was a long time ago/people change" type of speech. (And side note: I'd love to see Adam Driver play Snape for the HBO series.)
Yeah it was already a tough school year for Harry, then it was a pretty unpleasant experience to see that. Something JKR really leans into with her writing is the idea that everybody has flaws in their character. Sometimes I wonder if she went a bit too far with James, but I understand what she was trying to show.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I have similar sentiments about Horikoshi with BNHA concerning Bakugo. In any case, the series has had retcons before, so perhaps she didn't always plan on making Snape's past the way it was.
@@OpticalSorcerer I haven't watched MHA, but yeah I do wonder how much JKR had planned out in advance and how much she changed. Given how much foreshadowing there is throughout the books, she probably had a least a decent chunk planned out, if not the majority of the plot.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt MHA is great, but I kinda fell off of it, but that's an entirely different convo. The reason I think she may not have had some details planned out was with the whole "Hogwarts is one of several magic schools in Britain" to "it's the only magic school in Britain" retcon. But I'm pretty sure she planned 70%+ ahead of time.
My first exposure to Snape was with the movies, didn't get into the books until much later, so I love Alan Rickmans portrayal of Snape. He's still a bully and clear antagonist to Harry throughout most of the series but he's still a human being in the films. When I found out what he's like in the books I was shocked and wondered how JK ever thought anyone could like this guy even after you find out what was going on with him. Book Snape is definitely tragic but he's a vile, selfish man who's only doing the right thing because he literally has nothing else to cling to. Movie Snape is still tragic but not irredeemable, a bully but still a decent teacher (most of the time), a former Death Eater but still the bravest man Harry ever knew. You seem particularly focused on how different the emotional expressions are between the two versions but not only do I like the movie version more I actually think it makes more sense. In both versions Snape is working as a double agent on behalf of Voldemort while letting Voldemort think he's a double agent for him, we also know that in both versions Snape is a master of occlumency, even better at it than Voldemort is. The fact that he, as part of his mastery over his own mind, also has to have complete control over his emotions as well makes perfect sense to me. I don't see how book Snape was able to fool Voldemort as long as he did if he's THIS emotionally unhinged.
I agree with both your interpretations of the book vs movie characters. I wonder if JKR felt she went too far with Snape, and so encouraged a less hateful version of him in the movie (I don't know how much involvement she had). But yeah, it does make more sense for Harry to view Snape as the "bravest" man, and name his kid after him, in the movie. Whereas in the books I hated that scene.
Perhaps that's the point, to hide his occulmency skill, like with Dumbledore playing a crazy old fool, that Snape has wrapped round his finger, how else could he get away with that stuff. No one would think someone *that* unhinged has any mental control, certainly not a master, it's the perfect cover. Not only will people/voldy believe he's a actually a death eater hidden in plain side but he certainly can't be a master of the mind with that temper. I hope they use that in the series, where we see the calm master/Alan Rickman version with Dumbledore because Dumbledore does not have time for his crap and only puts up with it in public because it will help their story. Which he states when they are preparing for his return which is what he means by "I shall never reveal the best of you" the calm calculating self instead of the madman, which they do for each other. Everyone sees an mad snake wrapped around the crazy old big cat biding it's time until it can strikes. When actually it's the cunning lion with the snake at its beck and call, pulling the strings the whole time.
In the epilogue it would be better if the talk was something like " I had two headmasters at Hogwarts and one of them was a Slytherin and he was braver then I ever knew, while the other was a Gryffindor who was more cunning than I can ever imagine, I wouldn't be here if they hadn't sacrificed everything to help me, this is why I almost named you after them but your mother wanted you to have a clean slate to make your own path instead of living in the shadows of complicated but great men. It doesn't matter which house you go in, your true qualities will shine through. But if it means that much to you, then choose which path you wish to go down, the hat takes your thoughts into consideration."
In the bathroom scene where Harry uses Sectumsempra on Malfoy, movie Snape simply glares at Harry as he leaves the bathroom. Book Snape gives Harry detention every Saturday until the end of the year.
Also my understanding of the book scene is that it happened and was over before Harry had time to consider what he was doing. There was a couple of spells exchanged quickly, not as much ducking and moving and time to breathe and think. This is why harry using the spell in the book bother me as much because it felt like a panicked instinctual reaction in a fight. Harry didn’t know what it did. Making Snape seem far worse. Not realizing the confrontation was a two sided fight and that Malfoy may have tried a nasty spell that just didn’t hit. No it is all on harry.
I’d actually argue that Snape doesn’t do what he does for the “greater good”; he does it for revenge. I don’t think I can see any indication that he ever changed his ideals. Snape never stopped agreeing with Voldemort. He just turned against him as person because Tom killed Lily. His reasons for joining Dumbledore are selfish. As a child, he was known for his knowledge and love of the dark arts, and he always hung out with the kids who explicitly wanted to be Death Eaters. They purposely used dark magic on other students. Even when Lily confronted him about that in school, Snape still chose that path. He is morally aligned with the dark side, but he does the right thing to get back at Tom. If that’s the case, it opens a more interesting conversation IMO. Can a person still be redeemed if they do the right thing for purely selfish reasons? In that case, what is the nature of redemption in the first case?
Really great points. I was just replying to somebody else saying that, even though Snape may have had a bad upbringing, ultimately across his entire life he repeatedly made the conscious decision to move further into "darkness". And as you said, he only changed for selfish reasons, when something personally affected HIM. The concept of redemption is a really fascinating one, and I'm not sure if I have the answer or if there's even a single right answer. Snape sacrificed and did the right thing for a selfish love, but other than that he treated Harry (and others) horribly and went out of his way to make his/their lives worse. So is Snape ultimately a good person? Or is he a selfish person who succeeded in his revenge? I personally feel that Snape's actions aren't enough to totally redeem him, but the Snape in his memories is a totally different side to the character that we see from Harry's perspective so who's to say really. Have you read the Stormlight Archives? I won't ruin it if you haven't, but there's a character in that where the concept of redemption is explored and I find that character's personal journey really interesting. Difference there though is it's focussed on across an entire massive book.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Yeah I think you did an excellent job laying a lot of this out. Like you said, there’s a lot to say in 7 books that can’t all be out in a single video. It’s really funny that you mentioned the Stormlight Archive, as I’m currently on a re-read of The Way of Kings! Gotta prepare for the release of Wind & Truth later on this year. Yes, I’m sort of hoping a certain character doesn’t get redeemed in the end after Rhythm of War, but that’s just because of my personal emotional ties to the characters that one screwed over lol.
@@RiseeRee Thank you! Ah brilliant I'm also waiting for Wind & Truth this year but I haven't started my re-read yet. Yep I know what you mean, I'm very curious what will end up happening.
When Albus Dumbledore acted for the "greater good" that was actually something sinister and misguided. That makes it a bit odd to then try to use that standard for Severus Snape.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt We need to keep in mind though that we mostly only have Harry's view of Snape. There are instances in the books where we see some snapshots of other students not thinking that bad about him, and I'm not talking about Draco and his gang. It was also important for Snape to keep up appearances with the Voldemort supporters, he had to play tough with Harry not to rise suspicion among them.
I get why Harry named his older son for his father and godfather, and his daughter for his mother, but it never made any sense why he named his second for Snape or even Dumbledore and not for Hagrid: the guy who was his very first friend (aside from Ron who was his own age).
I'm already not a huge fan of the final chapter epilogue, but him naming one of his children after Snape is possibly my most hated moment from the entire series.
Yeah it's so unrealistic. No student would name their kid after a bully teacher even if they found out he was a Vietnam war hero. The resentment would always be there.
Damn. That also suggests that dueling a skilled Legilimens would be virtually impossible bc that mf could basically just read your mind while you cast and be ready for anything.
It's funny you mention that, because I think legilimency is really underrated in the series. Like you said it should be almost impossible to best a skilled user in a fight. I may make a video on it in the future...
Let's be honest. JKR isn't that complicated, and didn't have that far reaching or complicated of a plan. Snape started out as a caricature of the worst teacher ever from a child's perspective, and got a big gotcha flip as a result of audience participation. The reveal that he was an absolute bustard to Harry because he hated James more than he loved Lilly is not a redemption, it's an abusers self justification.
My most charitable reasoning with book Snape was that his constant bullying of students and others around his was a case of huge self loathing and constant lashing out. I noticed he often targeted those who had a happy disposition too. The greatest and early example of this is him calling Lilly mudblood, someone he actually loved but still couldn’t control that impulse. His difficult childhood followed by constant bullying, time as a death eater and then his albeit accidental betrayal of Lilly was something that he never moved on from, his life’s focus became Voldemort’s destruction and there are very few if any occasions that you’d say snape was happy in his adult life, satisfied in some bit of pettiness but not happy. There’s some bad fan fiction about it but I was always left wondering what shapes character might have been without these events, he didn’t really grow up on a personal level, sure he was self possessed and calm when needed but his personality was so unbalanced in that some parts were never really formed that books snape not only has the greater reveal in terms of his motives but leaves even more questions unanswered.
He is somewhat of a tragic character, but I think at the end of the day lots of characters in the series have troubled upbringings, and we still see them make the conscious decision to become better people. Snape is someone who really made a series of worsening decisions over his life, only changing course when it became something that affected him personally. And even then, he didn't really take that step to treat others better and improve his own life and standing, instead he chose to wallow in his own bitterness and anger. Either way he's a well written and interesting character, even if I don't like him as a person.
I'm a book fan all the way, but in this case, I actually really liked what they did with movie Snape. He's a different character and that's okay. In the new show, I'm expecting his book characterization
Yeah, unlike my Dumbledore and Voldemort videos, where I thought they were portrayed horribly in the movies, I didn't think Snape was too bad. As you said, they're very different characters though.
I would really liked it if the book snapes personality was actually like the movie one calm cold and calculated that scary and strict teacher that you knew he was actually a good man but sadly book snape was just straight up horrible and unhinged and definitely shouldn't have been around kids
Snape honestly is the most realistic character of all the cast. He shows a true portrayal of a broken man. When you think about it, Snape is almost similar to Voldemort in terms of love. Voldemort knows no love in his life but Snape has only one which is Lily. Snape is just a grey character. The movie fails to show him having grown up with an abusive father and a neglectful mother. All the movie shows that young Snape was emoing at the corner which shows shit. It is honestly quite sad for me to see the fandom has such vitriol and hatred for him and coming up with what-ifs that people seem to take it as canon. Just look at the state Harry Potter subreddit on how hated Snape is while the Marauders are praised and their flaws are swept under the rug. Any reasonable replies are immediately met with personal attacks and you are counted as a PD for believing Snape had ANY good values. For example, the fandom seems to believe that Snape SA'ed Neville which led to his Boggart being Snape, that Snape would be a PD if Harry was female, hating on Snape for not asking Voldermort to spare James and Harry (which is impossible and we all know it given how arrogant Voldy is), calling Snape an incel and "obsessed" over Lily when time and time again the story and JK Rowling has stated its love. If Snape was truly "obsessed", why then he didn't just Imperio Lily, or potion her since he was a prodigy with Potions or delve deeper into the Dark Arts to find ways to resurrect her or use the Mind Arts to brainwash someone as Lily? That's what you called true obsession. I really, really hate that allegation. All these allegations just want to paint Snape as pure evil and dark when he is just a grey character. Severus Snape is one of the true grey characters in entertainment. Other "grey" characters tend to be more bit side to good than actual grey.
For some reason most modern discourse around Harry Potter is really poor, at least in my opinion. I also noticed certain popular concepts from fanfic have crept into discussions around the main series, perhaps because many fans haven't read the series in a long time. I've ended up just staying away from Harry Potter subreddits, etc. because the quality of discussion really isn't great and can affect your perception of the series.
Besides. the REAL .S A.'ers in the books were James Potter et al. Also, Black was an attempted murderer who would have also thrown Lupin under the bus by not only outing him for what he really was but turning him into the thing TRULY feared - a mindless killer. Black was also so cocky that he thought he could trust Pettigrew, a nasty little boy who anyone could see was a toad-eating little sycophant who sucked-up to ANYONE more powerful than himself. Black was shit and brought about his own demise because of his indifference to Kreacher, Potter was an arrogant little golden-boy (rich also, like Black), Pettigrew was a simp and Lupin, well, I can give him a bit more of a pass. He KNEW what his 'friends' were doing was wrong, but had his own massive problems. Severus was a poor kid from a brutal family, looked-down upon by others for no reason except that he was 'not popular' yet STILL ended up by doing the right thing, even after a life of total, unmitigated misery from birth to death. As an aside, the REAL hero of the Black family was Regulus, who not only discovered to secret of the Locket horcrux, but also tried to destroy it and gave his life in doing so. What did Sirius ever do besides things that IRL would get him locked-up for ass*ult, S.ass*ult and attempted murder?
I might have seen the movies at an age when my understanding of the British style of acting was very low, but I found his performance to be weirdly stale and monotone. Then again the characters in the series are excaggerated and I saw the character more than the actor.
@@yggdrasil2 I've seen Alan Rickman in other movies and really liked him, but his style probably does lean more into that more reserved and composed performance.
Sounds like the actor was going to quit after movie 2, hence why she who must not be named revealed “always” to him, but Mr. Rickmen didn’t want to portray Snape, and I don’t blame him, Snape is a vile incel
I wish you could have seen how exited i was when i saw you posted this video. I visibly smiled and started tapping my feet. I love your videos ❤ cant wait to see even more along the line, keep up the great work please ❤
They also left out that it was Snape who provided the prophecy…..meaning there was no motivation for him to turn on Voldemort. In fact, there was no reason for movie Snape to even join the death eaters in the first place. There’s nothing to suggest that he was ever a bigot since the memories of him and Lily were basically gone. Where was that argument in the Courtyard where he defended the use of dark magic as “nothing, just a laugh”? Where was his ACTUAL worst memory? What James did didn’t make it his worst memory, what MADE it his worst memory was him losing Lily’s friendship by calling her a slur. In fact, why was movie Snape even in love with Lily in the first place considering the fact that movie Lily seemingly abandoned him as soon as she met James at age 11??
Wow really good points, I wish I'd thought to include that. But you're 100% right, those moments from his past were so important to his character, it's really disappointing they cut them.
Lily didn't abandon any hope for Snape until they were around 15. She couldn't stand James and told him so to his face in that memory scene. Snape calling Lily a mudblood was the last straw when she already had concerns about his friends abd the evil things they considered fun.
I know I’m an outlier, but 13 year old me fell in love with Snape. This was in 2001 and only Goblet of Fire was out. I knew he was in love with Harry’s mother, and saw his horrible behavior as a manifestation of his inconsolable pain. Now that I’m 35, I still see it that way, though know I can see how realistic it is that someone can be drowning in such darkness and self-loathing that he was. I’m not excusing his behavior at all, because he still made the choice, consciously or not, to be horrible to those around him, but I can understand that that pain can blind someone so severely that they make his or her life more miserable than it could be if they could just heal themselves.
I get where you're coming from, and I think that's an important part of understanding people's motivations. Being able to understand and empathise, without necessarily agreeing with their actions. Snape is a good character for exactly that reason.
I concur completely. One of the things about Snape's character which has always fascinated me is the harsh juxtaposition between his IQ and EQ. Adverse childhood experiences, as we know Snape has, can arrest emotional development. Having also been where Harry was, i.e. on the wrong end of an authority figure (for me it was 14 years and not seven), I find the white-washing of Snape almost offensive. Alan Rickman was a fine actor who makes me cringe with fear when I hear him playing Snape, but the glossing of Snape's character is typical of a society which is not willing to face what adults can do to children in their care - even when governments put extensive resources into comprehensive inquiry as we have here in Aotearoa.
Thanks and sorry to hear about your own experiences. I see this kind of whitewashing in a lot of movie adaptations of different series, so there's definitely some kind of aversion to showing the true extent of negativity of some of these characters.
I wouldn't say movie Snape is completely whitewashed. Usually book Snape is a lot worse, but there are several scenes in the movies where Snape is straight up physically assaulting students. However, it gets played off as comic relief.
I think that's the key, it's shown more comically so it takes the sting out of it. And Snape is so much calmer and more detached that it feels less venemous and personal.
Movie Snape is also prone to acting out at certain times when he shouldn’t (he’s quite intimidating too), though he certainly comes across as more expressionless there, much of the time
As a book reader, I consider Snape an amazing character in terms of writing, one of the best in the series for sure, besides being a ridiculously talented wizard (even moreso than what the movies manage to display). As a book reader I also consider he's an absolute asshole, a terrible, terrible teacher who had an amazing talent for the job had he actually been a good guy and just a bad person overall who did happen to sacrifice and probably contributed the most to Voldemort's demise (along with Harry and Dumbledore). He did some really good things in the end, but he was never motivated by justice, the world or whatever. He was mostly pissed Voldemort killed the one person he cared about. He also didn't care at all for James or Harry, and he wouldn't have cared about that incident at all had Lily lived. He was a quite the"racist", his favoritsm was incredibly annoying, he treated Harry like crap just for being his father's son (James was no saint, but that's another story) and as whole was a really bad human being, and was motivated by a good chunk of vengeance besides love. And at the same time, that's what makes Snape such an amazing character in the book. The fact that this asshole who hated Harry and did all those horrible stuff as a teacher was one of the guys who still protected Harry the most and the guy who sacrificed the most in order to defeat Voldemort. Absolutely amazing character, that I think it's very valid to both admire and hate at the same time.
Book Snape is what Draco could have become, full of jealousy, rage and pain. Instead, he stops the cycle of abuse. He manages what Snape never could. Moreover, he does that with basically no guidance or help.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt here’s the funniest thing: I don’t believe they were all that loving, really. At least definitely not Lucius. He might have loved Draco as an heir, but not as… well, Draco. From the first moments we see Draco, his desire to please his father is obvious. You don’t usually get to see that in families with real loving relationships. Draco is just like Snape, a paranoid. Where does he get it from, coming from such a privileged family? Moreover, the way he breaks this cycle is by basically going against his parents, separating from they and being everything they are not. So, no. I don’t believe his parents were the support he needed so much. They weren’t abusive. That’s for sure. But he was neglected, just like Snape. At least emotionally
"Snape isn't the first you'd talk about when thinking about Harry Potter." I think that's because when thinking about Harry Potter, I start by thinking about Harry Potter, because it's called Harry Potter.
I've got mixed thoughts on Snape's film portrayal. Given that the novels try to redeem Snape (and aren't very convincing at it), throwing in the scene where Snape instinctively shields the trio from a werewolf and taking out his very worst moments could arguably be considered a case of recognizing the flaws with the novel and trying to improve.
I guess it comes down to how you view the character of Snape. For me at least, I don't think his depiction is necessarily flawed, he's just a complicated character. And you can kind of see in the fandom how people are split on whether or not he managed to redeem himself/whether he died a good person. But since the movie simplifies him and makes him less ambiguously good, you end up stripping away that complexity.
I like him a lot as a character, but less so as a person. I was surprised by how many people really like Snape, there is a lot of fanfic out there about him. Which is totally fine though!
My only problem with Snape in the books is that there was no personal closure and no closure of his view of Harry. Although technically in the memories it is said that Snape could not see Harry as a unique person (but only as a copy of James), there are signs that he eventually accepted Harry as he was, with the chapter of the silver doe being that moment of recognition, but Rowling does not point this out. I wish the chapter of the prince's tale had been longer, to give closure to the character once and for all and explain his morality better so that we could forgive him, which would justify Harry naming his son Albus Severus.
Hm yeah very good point. I've also wondered did Snape ever regret the way he treated Harry, what was he thinking in his final moments. Especially after he learnt (or rather, was led to believe) that Harry needed to be sacrificed. Regardless, I'll always hate Harry naming his son after him lol.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Apparently, Harry naming his son Albus Severus means that Harry not only learned that the two people he both loved and hated (Dumbledore and Snape) had both positive and negative traits in them, as well as recognition for everything they both did for him. Honoring Severus was a way of forgiving and also recognizing his best traits. However, JK Rowling faltered in the Epilogue, because she practically didn't provide the character closure that Snape needed, which ended up seeming illogical for Harry to honor Severus. I also found it strange that Harry didn't honor Hagrid or McGonagall. That's why I think there should have been more memories of Snape, showing his relationship with Lily better, showing his time as a Death Eater and his regrets, showing more scenes during the events of the books from Severus' perspective, and using the Patronus part as the moment of recognition, with Snape finally recognizing Harry for who he was, maybe going to the Headmaster's office and saying to Dumbledore's portrait "maybe Dumbledore, I only saw what I expected to see..." and finally accepting his mistakes. In fact, I would have put four Potters instead of three (James Sirius, the twins Albus Rubeus and Severus Regulus, and Lily Minerva).
@@PedroHenrique-wf2xt Yeah I agree with you that it wasn't convincingly showed in the books & epilogue. Also with what you're saying about showing more from Snape's memories. You know something I thought would be good? Is, the chapter where Snape dies, having it from his perspective so we can see his thoughts.
To better show what book Snape sounds like, maybe you could have played snippets from the Stephen Fry audiobooks? I know there's the copyright risk, but Stephen Fry does a great job portraying Snape, so maybe it could have been worth it to better present your arguments of Snape's emotions. I remember Snape's anger in the last chapter of Book 3, with him screaming how Harry was responsible for Sirius Black's escape - Stephen Fry made it so real.
To be honest, Snape was a dick in books and a grumpy, unfullfilled man in films. Though one thing remains the same - he really hated Gryffindors with all of his hate. All of his bullies were in that house after all.
Part of the reason I made this video is because I've seen some people with a romanticised version of Snape, there's so much fanfic about him. But he really wasn't a good guy.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt It just seems to me that what Snape is feeling towards Lily is not love, it's an obsession. Snape sees her as his property (literally, that's his life goal - to get a woman that has never been interested in him romantically and he just can't get over it). And just because she doesn't want him, he's acting like a complete bully and asshole to everyone else, even after her death. He didn't even quit being a deatheater because of realizing it's bad or realizing that muggles suffer or something like that, he did it only because his obsession target was in danger :D For me, Snape is a selfish person who spent his life wanting a woman who never loved him back (in a romantic way) and just because he can't have her, he's arrogant and mean to everyone else. I really like Snape in movies, because he's just a strict teacher in there and his relationship with Lily is much better written... but in books... :D
@@BaronMartin Yeah I agree with you, but I don't think it makes him a badly written character. More like a bad person, but there are definitely people like him in reality as well.
Honestly, I blame more on the pacing and JK's writing skills in portraying her ideas. She made it clear that Snape loves Lily, not obsessed but from your comment, it's clear she fails to portray that. Cos if he was truly "obsessed" he could have potioned her, found dark ways to resurrect her, mind art someone into Lily and outright killing Harry at the first meeting.
Snape did something brave and heroic. That didn't make him a good person. They made it a joke in the movies but Neville was absolutely terrified of Snape with good reason. McGonagall was a strict, no nonsense teacher yet the students respected her and weren't terrified of her because she was also fair to *all* of the students. Most people say he acted like he did because of his abusive home. Well Harry grew up in an abusive home and he turned out totally the opposite of Snape.
Agreed. What was really absent in the movies was the fact that Snape made a series of increasingly bad and selfish decisions across his entire life, where other characters chose to rise above their troubled past and do good (Sirius?). He only changed when something affected him personally.
I never understood the redemption arc they tried with Snape The man was a monster and him betraying the Dark Lord doesn't redeem him in any way Because he is still an asshole And many of his horrific acts Just were completely unrelated to him being a double agent and was just him being cruel to be cruel And his defection from Lord Voldemort has nothing to do with him revoking his evil ways and his merely him seeking revenge against a singular individual for killing someone he liked He is still just as evil Because his defection does not come from a desire to do good It's a desire to have Revenge His morality did not change And he did not renounce his past actions as horrific and he did not seek atonement just revenge and He is still presumably a murderer he was one of the dark lords elite soldiers so he presumably murdered a lot of innocent people before Lily got killed He knows that the chosen one Harry Potter needs to become strong to defeat the Dark Lord but he goes out of his way to sabotage Harry And many of his acts as a teacher should have gotten him fired or even arrested He outright threatens Harry Potter with torture when he thinks Harry stole some supplies Intentionally destroyed Harry's schoolwork just so he could give him a zero for no reason just bullying a student And showed intense favoritism to one house Wow intentionally going out of his way to ruin the education of another house he went out of his way to get another teacher fired In particular a teacher that was teaching The chosen one very effectively how to fight Dark Wizard So congratulations snap you joined the good side supposedly to take down the Dark Lord only to intentionally stifle the chosen ones learning how to fight Dark Wizards as for his love of Lily honestly it's creepy rather than romantic and tragic he obsessed over a married woman and it would go on to be an absolute demon to her son simply because he was born from someone he disliked That's horrible And showed that his love was less love and more just obsession If he actually loved her he would take care of her son he would treat her son with respect Him being such an incredibly horrible teacher it just really doesn't line up that he's even employed as a teacher he seems incapable of actually teaching anything his students aren't learning because he's not teaching he's just bullying so Hogwarts what is supposed to be a prestigious the most prestigious school for Wizards has one of its classes where its professor will go out of its way to fail students his conduct actually is so bad he wouldn't even be a good drill instructor he's even worse than that he takes it further 'cause at least with a drill instructor your hard work will persevere and you're molded into a success while with snape no you're just going to fail you can never succeed in a test when the teacher intentionally destroys your test work a bunch of young wizards are going to go into the world with very little knowledge of Potion Unless of course they were part of the evil house of Hogwarts And it reflects really badly dumbledore and the school in general with all his horrific deeds that he's doing for no reason other than he's a nasty person I don't see redemption in him he's just getting back at the Dark Lord for killing someone he liked but betraying evil does not inherently make one good And I just really thought it weird at the end where Harry Potter names one of his kids after snape And says he was the bravest man he's ever met And that's just simply put not true Being a double agent Sure that is pretty brave I can pick up plenty of characters in the story that were more brave though including anyone who just straight out stood against the Dark Lord
My take on Snape is he really spent almost a lifetime making bad and morally wrong decisions, then at the end of his life began to repent but only because it was something that personally affected him. I think the quote from Stannis in game of thrones is very relevant here, that a good act doesn't wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each deserves it's own reward.
These are literally my exact thoughts on Snape. I also found it odd that he was such a good spy that he could completely hide his emotions from Voldemort, the person hates for killing Lily, yet in every other instance he was unable to hide his hatred/disdain towards people. His characterization is honestly detrimental to the books. There are many things I love in Harry Potter but Snape will never be one of them.
As bad as Snape is I have always hated James ed serious serious especially because he betrays lupin and the books and tries to get snape killed by using lupins werewolf form and also he never stops being a bully to snape even though he knows they were wrong to James and Sirius were just adult children and I cannot stand other one of them
I agree, to a point. It depends upon what lens you want to view the character, and how you interpret the intent of the statements in the books. (Forget the movie version, that Snape is clearly portrayed as the tragic antihero. I wouldn't use the term whitewashed - more .... diluted. They made him more appealing to mainstream consumers.) Dumbledore told Snape that Voldemort would return the night Lily and James died. Made it quite clear they were not safe from him (Voldemort). Given that, Snape was put in a very unique and awkward position. He had an image to maintain - that of a Death Eater. If he was ever to return to Voldemort's side as a spy, he needed everyone around him think he was "evil.". Especially because the children of Death Eaters were in his care for 9-10 months out of the year. So - he treated children terribly. He did what any good Death Eater would do. Did he overdo it? Maybe. Did he enjoy it sometimes? Maybe. Would he have done it if he didn't have to maintain the image of a good Slytherin Death Eater for all the little Slytherins that came to Hogwarts? (That's your $50 question. Would he have continued to be a jerk/asshole? Something to ponder.) This does not excuse his issues with James/Sirius/Lupin and his treatment of Harry. That shit was personal and did trigger Snape. But at the end of HBP, keep in mind Snape just killed his only "friend" in cold blood. And he did it for two reasons - a) to spare his friend further pain and humiliation (ego much, Albus?) and b) to continue to be a spy/aide and do what he could to ultimately defeat Voldemort. He knew Harry had to die at this point, too. There's a lot going on in that man's tortured brain in that moment. To say all of his rage/unhinged portrayal is due to his hatred of Harry (Which is displaced from James/Sirius/Lupin) misses the nuances of what Albus Dumbledore meant to Snape, and what Snape just did. Something to ponder.
Hey, really good thoughts thanks for sharing. You're right diluted is probably a better word to use, diluted for a mainstream audience. Interesting hypothetical around why Snape treated students badly. Personally I feel like it wasn't even a part of the cover, it's just an extension of his internal frustration and bitterness. Good points about what he had to go through killing Dumbledore, his only true confidant, then thinking he had been protecting Harry only to sacrifice him. I agree with you. I didn't mean to imply that Snape's rage purely comes from his relationship with Harry, it's definitely more complex than that, and his relationship with Harry is just one expression of his internal struggle.
as it's mentioned in the video, there's a rumor (I won't claim if it's true or not) that Rowling told Rickman the truth about Snape because Rickman didn't want to play an evil character. interesting enough, that happened before it was published the first book were Snape shows his true colors as a hero in the shadows. all of book snape actions before Rickman was told "the truth" clearly point at a spiteful man that enjoys mocking any student that's not a slytherin. all of snape actions until the big reveal can be done by a good Snape or an evil Snape. I have to acknowledge one thing though. Rowling made the character masterfully. you never know if he's a death eater, a spy of dumbledore, a double spy of voldemort or completely independent from both. until Snape's sacrifice, there's no solid proof of his true colors. at no point you know if his actions are sincere or done to keep his role as a spy, or double spy. so, here is the question. before Rickman made it clear that he wouldn't play an evil character, was Rowling plan to make Snape a hero in the shadows or to reveal he fooled Dumbledore and was a loyal death eater? just one single simple detail. in the first book. Quirrelmort claims to be able to bring back harry's parents if he joins him. be it true or not, what makes us believe he couldn't make a similar promise to Snape and tell him "obey me and I will bring back that woman you asked me to spare. as you can see, I'm still alive. I have power over death itself" wouldn't Snape agree to obey his lord in exchange of having Lily's back? if he can have Lily, why would he care if that insuferable Potter dies? but, if that were the ending, Rickman would had refused to play snape on the last movie(s) and that would be a tragedy. better we make him a whitewashed hero portrayed by the best possible actor for this role.
Very interesting points! Personally I think Voldemort just didn't realise how much Snape loved Lily. He says in the final book that "he just desired her", which has its own implications. But as to when JKR thought of the twist, I truly have no idea. I do feel like she planned out something like 75-85% of the main series.
I'd argue that the movie version is more credible given that Snape was a successful double agent for years; he'd have to be "cold and emotionless" to succeed in his mission. That doesn't mean that Snape didn't have feelings or that his feelings were particularly noble, only that he'd have to conceal them from Voldemort.
Yeah they were better than I remembered when I went back and rewatched them. But I think they mainly dropped the ball when Harry views his worst memory.
I'd give that title to someone like Voldemort or Bellatrix tbh, because at least Snape did dedicate himself at the end of his life to Dumbledore's cause.
I do agree with your general point, but I'm not sure you chose the right example to prove your point with the Half-Blood-Prince scene. Snape just killed Dumbledore, which he never wanted to do. Of course he would be unhinged after this act. Much more controlled people would be as well. To reduce his behaviour here to his feelings towards the Potters seems wrong to me.
I chose that scene to really illustrate the difference in reactions between movie Snape and book Snape. It's a good example, at least in my opinion, of the differences in their emotional composure. And as you said, it's not just due to the Potters, but just the general situation around him.
I think it makes more sense in the movie that harry would name his son severus. If you like book snape more, that's fine, but book snape is not a character you would name your child after.
Funnily enough I pronounced it that way in my earlier videos on Harry Potter, but then a lot of people told me I was pronouncing it wrong lol. Now I'm not sure!
Snape is a Bad guy ... End of discussion ! PERIOD People sympathizing him when Sirius , Lupin , James suffered more than him just shows how badly movies messed up . While is reality ( books ) , other than protecting Harry because of HIS OWN GUILT that Lily died because of him ... He did nothing Great . Also Dumbledore>>>>>>>>>>> Snape . Dude wouldn't even had a charcter arc if it was Dumbledore. He trusted Snape & gave him a chance . Snape is a Great double agent, agreed ! But never was a Good person .
The thing I hate the absolute most is Harry naming his son after Snape. Even though Snape did sacrifice a lot, he is nowhere near worthy of that (the "bravest" man he'd ever known). Harry should have named his son after Sirius if it was going to be anyone.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Yeah it was kind of unexpected for me too ... But then again May be Harry just wanted to respect the guy who protected him for whatever reason it may be . What can we say ... Harry is too Noble to hold grudge on someone !
I really understand people not liking Harry naming his son Snape. Snape certainly didn't deserve it, but I really like it (ok, Snape is my favorite character and I admit that, and yes, I don't have much of a say, because I'm reading the books now, and I'm finishing 3, but I know things that Snape did) like, I think it's a way to show how good Harry really was and maybe show some appreciation to Snape (yes, Snape was cruel, but I think Harry would feel that a little). a bit like Snape saving him just to hate his father, like a "we're kiting now, okay?" Other than that, very good video.@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt
Yeah, there'll be a Hermione video next Saturday probably (10th) but I don't want to do too many of the similar topic in a row so I'm trying to space it out.
Hey, thanks for being patient I know you've been looking forward to it. I'll be working on it next, so it'll probably go live week after next on the 10th!
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Yep, thx! Hermione is also another misunderstood character as those who have only watched the movies exclusively know her from a surface level (yeah, thx Emma and Kloves)
@@LazyOldFusspot_3428 no problem! I fit in the videos around my job so yeah I'll be working on it from tomorrow then scheduling it for Saturday 10th. Yeah agree with you Hermione really wasn't portrayed well in the movies, I don't really like Emma Watson as an actor either tbh.
@@LazyOldFusspot_3428 Hmm good question. I'll have to have a think about that! I actually can't think of anyone off the top of my head. What about you?
For me I'd say adaptations should stay faithful to the spirit of the original material. Pretty much all adaptations will change, remove and add scenes or dialogue, but I think so long as it's done respectfully to the original story then it's a good adaptation. Lord of the Rings, The Expanse and the first few seasons of Game of Thrones were good adaptations I'd say.
The biggest difference between book and movie Snape is imho his plead to Dumbledore. In the movie, he is on his knees and begs Dumbledore to hide and protect the Potter family. That Snape is the reason why Voldemort targeted Harry in the first place because he leaked parts of the prophecy to Voldemort is completely skipped. In the book he goes to Dumbledore and asks him to protect Lilly. And only Lily. He dosen't care for James and Harry at all and only gives in, after Dumbledore brutally calls him out for his selfishness. Also, like i said, Snape is the reason Voldemort acted because of the prophecy in the first place. And his first reaction, after he found out what Voldemort concluded, was NOT to go to Dumbledore - it was going to Voldemort and asking HIM to spare Lily. He probably saw this as an opportunity to get with his dream girl and at the same time getting rid of James and Harry without having to deal with it himself. It was only after he got doubts that Voldemort would keep his promise to spare Lily (or maybe Voldemort even directly refused it) that he went to Dumbledore. If he had a guarantee that Voldemort would have spared Lily, i'm very sure that he would have never left Voldemorts side. He is simply too immature to let anything go, let it be his jealously for James, his unrequited love for Lily, or his hatred for his muggle father. So he still didn't change, he didn't regret - he only got scared that he would lose his obsessive, one-sided love. And why his motivation being love may sounds honorable at first, it is still massively selfish to only care for Lily and wanting her for himself, without considering Harry and James, and without considering the true feelings of Lily at all. The alliance with Dumbledore was therefore purely strategical and he probably only became loyal to Dumbledore because he felt he owed that to Lily. Love can be selfish too if it's morphed to this obsessive, egoistic degree - see Merope Gaunt. Sometimes i wonder why Snape, as the potions master he is, never tried to subdue her with a love potion. Would totally fit with his character and my bet is that he simply lacked the opportunity. Love dosen't excuse being egoistic, possesive, jealous, toxic, and straight out evil. Snape therefore has no true redemption, and it's becoming really obvious if you compare it to real redemption arcs like Zuko from Avatar The Last Airbender.
All great points and I completely agree. Good reference to Merope Gaunt as well I didn't think about her. I do also personally feel like Snape didn't truly redeem himself, although I know plenty of people disagree.
I don't think Snape was bad in the books. He usually only ever took one points from Griffindor in the book compared with taking fifty points in the movies. And the "venomous" quotes you example in the video sound more like him teaching HP. "No unforgivable curses from you until you can learn to keep your mouth closed.". The same thing Snape was trying to teach HP in their private lessons. And HP in the book was a little asshole to Snape always. He wouldn't even call him Professor. If you re read the books and notte how HP spoke to and treated Snape it is easy to see. A child who acted like that to a teacher would be a monster nowadays. Snape had good reason to HATE James Potter and all of his friends who bullied and tormented him at school for seven years. Why? Because they felt like it? HP had no real reason to hate Snape when he arrived at school.
I think possibly you've forgotten all the things Snape does in the books. He actively goes out of his way to provoke and bully many of the students, he targets Harry for no reason right from their very first lesson, and he encourages bullying of non Slytherin students whilst ignoring any accusations against them. Snape provokes Harry deliberately by targeting things he knows will upset him, like his dead parents. Remember that Snape is a grown man, whereas Harry is 11 when he starts at Hogwarts, his actions are inexcusable imo.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptAgreed 💯 and to add further more Harry doesn't start hating Snape or Is rude to Snape from the get go , so I don't know what they are talking about, He respects all his other teachers, unlike Snape who bullied everyone not just Harry
@@googleuser5091 Yeah I feel like anyone defending Snape must either have not read the books or not read them for a while. Snape actively starts bullying Harry from the first moment they meet.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I guess Dumbledores constant trust in him and the fact he double played the dark lord. Then he thought, what if he double-double played. Pretending to be with the dark lord but this was part of Dumbledores plan to make sure Snape gains trust. I guess my dad being a puzzle and mystery murder solver could have helped him.
All the characters are modified and adapted in the movies and (in the books) Harry is not a reliable narrator. That's why I like movies, because the actors show the characters how they think they would think and act. Technically the films are not canon, even if they are approved by the author.
The thing about adaptations is I don't really like it when they stray away from the original essence of a character. Thinking of them as non canon probably helps, but it's a shame to think a lot of people will never be exposed to the source material if they just watch an adaptation.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt An adaptation does not have to be 100% faithful to the original material, as they are different media they have different methods, possibilities and limitations. I don't think all is lost if a medium brings a title closer to another market and opens the possibility of more people reaching the original material. Searching and reading the parts and each assembly is the responsibility of the consumer. It is absurd to demand that a single medium be the latest and greatest possible version, even if it is multidisciplinary. There will always be something to improve, a new perspective, a new form, and the art and each experience can be enriched, transformed, corrupted or deformed. In the case of HP, it was a watershed in many ways and I think we have already reached the point where it is being asked too much for what it really is, a children's fantasy story.
@@aissamira "we have already reached the point where it is being asked too much for what it really is, a children's fantasy story". I do really agree with this to be fair. It's the fate of any popular media after enough time passes I guess.
What the screenwriters were thinking when they added scene where Snape was holding Lily's dead body in the film, because that never happened in the Book. It didn't make any sense. He didn't know the actual locations of the Potters who were hiding from Lord Voldemort. When he was in Dumbledore's office and found out that Lily died, he was completely devastated.
Yeah I really didn't like this addition in the movie, it felt really out of place to me. Also it's a bit weird thinking he probably stepped over James' body to get to her and hug her. I mean she was married to someone else...
I think that scene made everyone fall in love with him and also the warewolf scene from the 3d movie yes they were completely out of place for his book character but not really for the movie one and honestly they were enough to make 14 yo me go 😢😍
Say what you want that’s the best scene in the entire franchise
@@DekaNovelist Exactly! I found it kind of unsympathetic. The scene has no sound and only has evocative music overlayed, but if you think about it for 3 seconds…he’s cradling Lily’s dead body while her literal baby is crying right behind him 😐
@@RiseeRee Yeah, it felt out of nowhere. And Snape never knew where the Potters lived. We already saw how Snape reacted to her death in the books even.
Some vitty folk once said:
movie Snape - strict teacher that sometimes act as an asshole,
book Snape - asshole that sometimes act as strict teacher
The bit where Snape tries to poison his 13-year-old student's pet, then punishes the student when the pet is OK... Yeah. And Neville did make the potion right with some extra help, which means he is actually capable of making some progress in the subject with a the right guidance. So what does Snape do when the student finally has a bit of success in class? Collective punishment. Shit teacher.
Lol yeah one example of many of Snape being awful. There was no reason for him to bully students as much as he did, and him being a double agent doesn't excuse it. Neville would have probably ended up having a nervous breakdown if no one helped him.
I don't like how far Snape book's characterization goes at all. Like, yeah, he's more complex, but JK does very little to reedem him at the end. I find the twist in the movies easier to buy because they toned his children-bullying down, but yet, he's more interesting in the books. I just can't stand Harry not having complex feelings about the man who bullied him his entire youth, and naming his own son after him. The final book treats Snape like a whitewashed hero after the twist.
He's a complicated character, I like both versions of him very much. Both are good, both have their own advantadges and flaws.
Wow a balanced view!
Yeah as you said they're very different interpretations of the character. I personally prefer the book version, although I don't like him as a person, but I do appreciate Alan Rickman's portrayal as well. It's definitely not offensive like the Voldemort and Dumbledore movie portrayals are.
Not only did Snape bullied Harry during his entire youth. he was also the one who told Voldemort about the Prophecy, ergo, Snape is co-responsible for the death of Harry's parents and thus co-responsible for all the years of abuse by the Dursleys Harry had to endure.
I would say they redeemed him enough. Bullying is nothing compared to killing people and that’s what he’s changed about himself.
Yeah. I remember I was very confused at the end of the 7th book. "Naming your children after Snape? Isn't it too much?"
I always felt bad that Harry learned what made Snape so terrible and he couldn't ask his parents about it, and his dad's friends gave the whole "it was a long time ago/people change" type of speech. (And side note: I'd love to see Adam Driver play Snape for the HBO series.)
Yeah it was already a tough school year for Harry, then it was a pretty unpleasant experience to see that. Something JKR really leans into with her writing is the idea that everybody has flaws in their character. Sometimes I wonder if she went a bit too far with James, but I understand what she was trying to show.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I have similar sentiments about Horikoshi with BNHA concerning Bakugo. In any case, the series has had retcons before, so perhaps she didn't always plan on making Snape's past the way it was.
@@OpticalSorcerer I haven't watched MHA, but yeah I do wonder how much JKR had planned out in advance and how much she changed. Given how much foreshadowing there is throughout the books, she probably had a least a decent chunk planned out, if not the majority of the plot.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt MHA is great, but I kinda fell off of it, but that's an entirely different convo. The reason I think she may not have had some details planned out was with the whole "Hogwarts is one of several magic schools in Britain" to "it's the only magic school in Britain" retcon. But I'm pretty sure she planned 70%+ ahead of time.
Is it only me that wants to see kianu reeves
My first exposure to Snape was with the movies, didn't get into the books until much later, so I love Alan Rickmans portrayal of Snape. He's still a bully and clear antagonist to Harry throughout most of the series but he's still a human being in the films. When I found out what he's like in the books I was shocked and wondered how JK ever thought anyone could like this guy even after you find out what was going on with him.
Book Snape is definitely tragic but he's a vile, selfish man who's only doing the right thing because he literally has nothing else to cling to. Movie Snape is still tragic but not irredeemable, a bully but still a decent teacher (most of the time), a former Death Eater but still the bravest man Harry ever knew.
You seem particularly focused on how different the emotional expressions are between the two versions but not only do I like the movie version more I actually think it makes more sense.
In both versions Snape is working as a double agent on behalf of Voldemort while letting Voldemort think he's a double agent for him, we also know that in both versions Snape is a master of occlumency, even better at it than Voldemort is. The fact that he, as part of his mastery over his own mind, also has to have complete control over his emotions as well makes perfect sense to me. I don't see how book Snape was able to fool Voldemort as long as he did if he's THIS emotionally unhinged.
I agree with both your interpretations of the book vs movie characters. I wonder if JKR felt she went too far with Snape, and so encouraged a less hateful version of him in the movie (I don't know how much involvement she had). But yeah, it does make more sense for Harry to view Snape as the "bravest" man, and name his kid after him, in the movie. Whereas in the books I hated that scene.
Perhaps that's the point, to hide his occulmency skill, like with Dumbledore playing a crazy old fool, that Snape has wrapped round his finger, how else could he get away with that stuff.
No one would think someone *that* unhinged has any mental control, certainly not a master, it's the perfect cover. Not only will people/voldy believe he's a actually a death eater hidden in plain side but he certainly can't be a master of the mind with that temper.
I hope they use that in the series, where we see the calm master/Alan Rickman version with Dumbledore because Dumbledore does not have time for his crap and only puts up with it in public because it will help their story. Which he states when they are preparing for his return which is what he means by "I shall never reveal the best of you" the calm calculating self instead of the madman, which they do for each other.
Everyone sees an mad snake wrapped around the crazy old big cat biding it's time until it can strikes. When actually it's the cunning lion with the snake at its beck and call, pulling the strings the whole time.
In the epilogue it would be better if the talk was something like " I had two headmasters at Hogwarts and one of them was a Slytherin and he was braver then I ever knew, while the other was a Gryffindor who was more cunning than I can ever imagine, I wouldn't be here if they hadn't sacrificed everything to help me, this is why I almost named you after them but your mother wanted you to have a clean slate to make your own path instead of living in the shadows of complicated but great men.
It doesn't matter which house you go in, your true qualities will shine through. But if it means that much to you, then choose which path you wish to go down, the hat takes your thoughts into consideration."
In the bathroom scene where Harry uses Sectumsempra on Malfoy, movie Snape simply glares at Harry as he leaves the bathroom. Book Snape gives Harry detention every Saturday until the end of the year.
Lol another great example. Book Snape loves nothing more than giving detentions. And Harry misses the final match because of that too doesn't he?
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Exactly!!
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptIt's even justified- Harry DID almost kill Malfoy.
@@sidnew2739 It was an accident, and it was never addressed that Malfoy was trying to use an Unforgivable curse (crucio) on Harry.
Also my understanding of the book scene is that it happened and was over before Harry had time to consider what he was doing.
There was a couple of spells exchanged quickly, not as much ducking and moving and time to breathe and think.
This is why harry using the spell in the book bother me as much because it felt like a panicked instinctual reaction in a fight. Harry didn’t know what it did.
Making Snape seem far worse. Not realizing the confrontation was a two sided fight and that Malfoy may have tried a nasty spell that just didn’t hit. No it is all on harry.
I’d actually argue that Snape doesn’t do what he does for the “greater good”; he does it for revenge. I don’t think I can see any indication that he ever changed his ideals. Snape never stopped agreeing with Voldemort. He just turned against him as person because Tom killed Lily. His reasons for joining Dumbledore are selfish.
As a child, he was known for his knowledge and love of the dark arts, and he always hung out with the kids who explicitly wanted to be Death Eaters. They purposely used dark magic on other students. Even when Lily confronted him about that in school, Snape still chose that path. He is morally aligned with the dark side, but he does the right thing to get back at Tom.
If that’s the case, it opens a more interesting conversation IMO. Can a person still be redeemed if they do the right thing for purely selfish reasons? In that case, what is the nature of redemption in the first case?
Really great points. I was just replying to somebody else saying that, even though Snape may have had a bad upbringing, ultimately across his entire life he repeatedly made the conscious decision to move further into "darkness". And as you said, he only changed for selfish reasons, when something personally affected HIM.
The concept of redemption is a really fascinating one, and I'm not sure if I have the answer or if there's even a single right answer. Snape sacrificed and did the right thing for a selfish love, but other than that he treated Harry (and others) horribly and went out of his way to make his/their lives worse. So is Snape ultimately a good person? Or is he a selfish person who succeeded in his revenge? I personally feel that Snape's actions aren't enough to totally redeem him, but the Snape in his memories is a totally different side to the character that we see from Harry's perspective so who's to say really.
Have you read the Stormlight Archives? I won't ruin it if you haven't, but there's a character in that where the concept of redemption is explored and I find that character's personal journey really interesting. Difference there though is it's focussed on across an entire massive book.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Yeah I think you did an excellent job laying a lot of this out. Like you said, there’s a lot to say in 7 books that can’t all be out in a single video.
It’s really funny that you mentioned the Stormlight Archive, as I’m currently on a re-read of The Way of Kings! Gotta prepare for the release of Wind & Truth later on this year. Yes, I’m sort of hoping a certain character doesn’t get redeemed in the end after Rhythm of War, but that’s just because of my personal emotional ties to the characters that one screwed over lol.
@@RiseeRee Thank you! Ah brilliant I'm also waiting for Wind & Truth this year but I haven't started my re-read yet. Yep I know what you mean, I'm very curious what will end up happening.
When Albus Dumbledore acted for the "greater good" that was actually something sinister and misguided. That makes it a bit odd to then try to use that standard for Severus Snape.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt We need to keep in mind though that we mostly only have Harry's view of Snape. There are instances in the books where we see some snapshots of other students not thinking that bad about him, and I'm not talking about Draco and his gang.
It was also important for Snape to keep up appearances with the Voldemort supporters, he had to play tough with Harry not to rise suspicion among them.
I get why Harry named his older son for his father and godfather, and his daughter for his mother, but it never made any sense why he named his second for Snape or even Dumbledore and not for Hagrid: the guy who was his very first friend (aside from Ron who was his own age).
I'm already not a huge fan of the final chapter epilogue, but him naming one of his children after Snape is possibly my most hated moment from the entire series.
He should have named the second son Sirius then James and Sirius would really be brothers instead of friends who were like brothers to each other
Yeah it's so unrealistic. No student would name their kid after a bully teacher even if they found out he was a Vietnam war hero. The resentment would always be there.
Damn. That also suggests that dueling a skilled Legilimens would be virtually impossible bc that mf could basically just read your mind while you cast and be ready for anything.
It's funny you mention that, because I think legilimency is really underrated in the series. Like you said it should be almost impossible to best a skilled user in a fight. I may make a video on it in the future...
Are there therapists in the wizard world? Cuz, a few of these characters should have had weekly visits.
Haha, judging by the general state of health and safety in the series, almost definitely not.
Let's be honest. JKR isn't that complicated, and didn't have that far reaching or complicated of a plan. Snape started out as a caricature of the worst teacher ever from a child's perspective, and got a big gotcha flip as a result of audience participation. The reveal that he was an absolute bustard to Harry because he hated James more than he loved Lilly is not a redemption, it's an abusers self justification.
Agree with you it doesn't redeem Snape. But I do think JKR had probably at least 70-80% of the series planned from the start.
My most charitable reasoning with book Snape was that his constant bullying of students and others around his was a case of huge self loathing and constant lashing out.
I noticed he often targeted those who had a happy disposition too. The greatest and early example of this is him calling Lilly mudblood, someone he actually loved but still couldn’t control that impulse.
His difficult childhood followed by constant bullying, time as a death eater and then his albeit accidental betrayal of Lilly was something that he never moved on from, his life’s focus became Voldemort’s destruction and there are very few if any occasions that you’d say snape was happy in his adult life, satisfied in some bit of pettiness but not happy.
There’s some bad fan fiction about it but I was always left wondering what shapes character might have been without these events, he didn’t really grow up on a personal level, sure he was self possessed and calm when needed but his personality was so unbalanced in that some parts were never really formed that books snape not only has the greater reveal in terms of his motives but leaves even more questions unanswered.
He is somewhat of a tragic character, but I think at the end of the day lots of characters in the series have troubled upbringings, and we still see them make the conscious decision to become better people. Snape is someone who really made a series of worsening decisions over his life, only changing course when it became something that affected him personally. And even then, he didn't really take that step to treat others better and improve his own life and standing, instead he chose to wallow in his own bitterness and anger. Either way he's a well written and interesting character, even if I don't like him as a person.
I'm a book fan all the way, but in this case, I actually really liked what they did with movie Snape. He's a different character and that's okay. In the new show, I'm expecting his book characterization
Yeah, unlike my Dumbledore and Voldemort videos, where I thought they were portrayed horribly in the movies, I didn't think Snape was too bad. As you said, they're very different characters though.
I would really liked it if the book snapes personality was actually like the movie one calm cold and calculated that scary and strict teacher that you knew he was actually a good man but sadly book snape was just straight up horrible and unhinged and definitely shouldn't have been around kids
@@middleeasternforhire8985 Too true. I think like I said in the video, the movie Snape is almost what book Snape wishes he could be.
Snape honestly is the most realistic character of all the cast. He shows a true portrayal of a broken man. When you think about it, Snape is almost similar to Voldemort in terms of love. Voldemort knows no love in his life but Snape has only one which is Lily. Snape is just a grey character. The movie fails to show him having grown up with an abusive father and a neglectful mother. All the movie shows that young Snape was emoing at the corner which shows shit.
It is honestly quite sad for me to see the fandom has such vitriol and hatred for him and coming up with what-ifs that people seem to take it as canon. Just look at the state Harry Potter subreddit on how hated Snape is while the Marauders are praised and their flaws are swept under the rug. Any reasonable replies are immediately met with personal attacks and you are counted as a PD for believing Snape had ANY good values.
For example, the fandom seems to believe that Snape SA'ed Neville which led to his Boggart being Snape, that Snape would be a PD if Harry was female, hating on Snape for not asking Voldermort to spare James and Harry (which is impossible and we all know it given how arrogant Voldy is), calling Snape an incel and "obsessed" over Lily when time and time again the story and JK Rowling has stated its love.
If Snape was truly "obsessed", why then he didn't just Imperio Lily, or potion her since he was a prodigy with Potions or delve deeper into the Dark Arts to find ways to resurrect her or use the Mind Arts to brainwash someone as Lily? That's what you called true obsession. I really, really hate that allegation.
All these allegations just want to paint Snape as pure evil and dark when he is just a grey character. Severus Snape is one of the true grey characters in entertainment. Other "grey" characters tend to be more bit side to good than actual grey.
For some reason most modern discourse around Harry Potter is really poor, at least in my opinion. I also noticed certain popular concepts from fanfic have crept into discussions around the main series, perhaps because many fans haven't read the series in a long time.
I've ended up just staying away from Harry Potter subreddits, etc. because the quality of discussion really isn't great and can affect your perception of the series.
Besides. the REAL .S A.'ers in the books were James Potter et al. Also, Black was an attempted murderer who would have also thrown Lupin under the bus by not only outing him for what he really was but turning him into the thing TRULY feared - a mindless killer. Black was also so cocky that he thought he could trust Pettigrew, a nasty little boy who anyone could see was a toad-eating little sycophant who sucked-up to ANYONE more powerful than himself. Black was shit and brought about his own demise because of his indifference to Kreacher, Potter was an arrogant little golden-boy (rich also, like Black), Pettigrew was a simp and Lupin, well, I can give him a bit more of a pass. He KNEW what his 'friends' were doing was wrong, but had his own massive problems. Severus was a poor kid from a brutal family, looked-down upon by others for no reason except that he was 'not popular' yet STILL ended up by doing the right thing, even after a life of total, unmitigated misery from birth to death.
As an aside, the REAL hero of the Black family was Regulus, who not only discovered to secret of the Locket horcrux, but also tried to destroy it and gave his life in doing so. What did Sirius ever do besides things that IRL would get him locked-up for ass*ult, S.ass*ult and attempted murder?
I'm actually not a fan of Alan Rickman's portrayal of Snape. Snape is definitely whitewashed in the film which is a real pity.
Yeah I agree. I do like Alan Rickman, but the movie Snape is almost an entirely different character to the book version.
I might have seen the movies at an age when my understanding of the British style of acting was very low, but I found his performance to be weirdly stale and monotone. Then again the characters in the series are excaggerated and I saw the character more than the actor.
@@yggdrasil2 I've seen Alan Rickman in other movies and really liked him, but his style probably does lean more into that more reserved and composed performance.
Sounds like the actor was going to quit after movie 2, hence why she who must not be named revealed “always” to him, but Mr. Rickmen didn’t want to portray Snape, and I don’t blame him, Snape is a vile incel
@@karenorgan6203 Wow that's interesting I had no idea Alan Rickman almost quit. Maybe like you said he wasn't a fan of the Snape character.
I wish you could have seen how exited i was when i saw you posted this video. I visibly smiled and started tapping my feet. I love your videos ❤ cant wait to see even more along the line, keep up the great work please ❤
Thank you, I'm glad to hear you look forward to the videos so much! I'll do my best to keep it up.
They also left out that it was Snape who provided the prophecy…..meaning there was no motivation for him to turn on Voldemort. In fact, there was no reason for movie Snape to even join the death eaters in the first place. There’s nothing to suggest that he was ever a bigot since the memories of him and Lily were basically gone. Where was that argument in the Courtyard where he defended the use of dark magic as “nothing, just a laugh”? Where was his ACTUAL worst memory? What James did didn’t make it his worst memory, what MADE it his worst memory was him losing Lily’s friendship by calling her a slur. In fact, why was movie Snape even in love with Lily in the first place considering the fact that movie Lily seemingly abandoned him as soon as she met James at age 11??
Wow really good points, I wish I'd thought to include that. But you're 100% right, those moments from his past were so important to his character, it's really disappointing they cut them.
Lily didn't abandon any hope for Snape until they were around 15. She couldn't stand James and told him so to his face in that memory scene. Snape calling Lily a mudblood was the last straw when she already had concerns about his friends abd the evil things they considered fun.
Exactly, I believe they did film the worst memory, there's a picture of James with a teenage Lilly but they completely cut out her scene 😭
I know I’m an outlier, but 13 year old me fell in love with Snape. This was in 2001 and only Goblet of Fire was out. I knew he was in love with Harry’s mother, and saw his horrible behavior as a manifestation of his inconsolable pain. Now that I’m 35, I still see it that way, though know I can see how realistic it is that someone can be drowning in such darkness and self-loathing that he was. I’m not excusing his behavior at all, because he still made the choice, consciously or not, to be horrible to those around him, but I can understand that that pain can blind someone so severely that they make his or her life more miserable than it could be if they could just heal themselves.
I get where you're coming from, and I think that's an important part of understanding people's motivations. Being able to understand and empathise, without necessarily agreeing with their actions. Snape is a good character for exactly that reason.
“A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward."
- Stannis Baratheon
Love this quote, very relevant here.
I concur completely. One of the things about Snape's character which has always fascinated me is the harsh juxtaposition between his IQ and EQ. Adverse childhood experiences, as we know Snape has, can arrest emotional development. Having also been where Harry was, i.e. on the wrong end of an authority figure (for me it was 14 years and not seven), I find the white-washing of Snape almost offensive. Alan Rickman was a fine actor who makes me cringe with fear when I hear him playing Snape, but the glossing of Snape's character is typical of a society which is not willing to face what adults can do to children in their care - even when governments put extensive resources into comprehensive inquiry as we have here in Aotearoa.
Thanks and sorry to hear about your own experiences. I see this kind of whitewashing in a lot of movie adaptations of different series, so there's definitely some kind of aversion to showing the true extent of negativity of some of these characters.
I wouldn't say movie Snape is completely whitewashed. Usually book Snape is a lot worse, but there are several scenes in the movies where Snape is straight up physically assaulting students. However, it gets played off as comic relief.
I think that's the key, it's shown more comically so it takes the sting out of it. And Snape is so much calmer and more detached that it feels less venemous and personal.
Movie Snape is also prone to acting out at certain times when he shouldn’t (he’s quite intimidating too), though he certainly comes across as more expressionless there, much of the time
For me at least, the key is when he acts out in the movies he still feels like a rational adult, as opposed to the books.
As a book reader, I consider Snape an amazing character in terms of writing, one of the best in the series for sure, besides being a ridiculously talented wizard (even moreso than what the movies manage to display).
As a book reader I also consider he's an absolute asshole, a terrible, terrible teacher who had an amazing talent for the job had he actually been a good guy and just a bad person overall who did happen to sacrifice and probably contributed the most to Voldemort's demise (along with Harry and Dumbledore).
He did some really good things in the end, but he was never motivated by justice, the world or whatever. He was mostly pissed Voldemort killed the one person he cared about. He also didn't care at all for James or Harry, and he wouldn't have cared about that incident at all had Lily lived.
He was a quite the"racist", his favoritsm was incredibly annoying, he treated Harry like crap just for being his father's son (James was no saint, but that's another story) and as whole was a really bad human being, and was motivated by a good chunk of vengeance besides love.
And at the same time, that's what makes Snape such an amazing character in the book. The fact that this asshole who hated Harry and did all those horrible stuff as a teacher was one of the guys who still protected Harry the most and the guy who sacrificed the most in order to defeat Voldemort. Absolutely amazing character, that I think it's very valid to both admire and hate at the same time.
Really great, balanced take. I have nothing at all to add, other than I think you summed up Snape perfectly!
Agreed.
Book Snape is what Draco could have become, full of jealousy, rage and pain.
Instead, he stops the cycle of abuse. He manages what Snape never could.
Moreover, he does that with basically no guidance or help.
Probably one of the biggest differences between Snape and Draco is Draco has loving parents who valued him over Voldemort but Snape didn't.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt here’s the funniest thing: I don’t believe they were all that loving, really. At least definitely not Lucius. He might have loved Draco as an heir, but not as… well, Draco.
From the first moments we see Draco, his desire to please his father is obvious. You don’t usually get to see that in families with real loving relationships. Draco is just like Snape, a paranoid. Where does he get it from, coming from such a privileged family?
Moreover, the way he breaks this cycle is by basically going against his parents, separating from they and being everything they are not.
So, no. I don’t believe his parents were the support he needed so much.
They weren’t abusive. That’s for sure.
But he was neglected, just like Snape. At least emotionally
"Snape isn't the first you'd talk about when thinking about Harry Potter." I think that's because when thinking about Harry Potter, I start by thinking about Harry Potter, because it's called Harry Potter.
My point exactly
"You'd turn my inventions on me like your filthy father?", said Snape calmly. 😅
Haha love this 😂
I've got mixed thoughts on Snape's film portrayal. Given that the novels try to redeem Snape (and aren't very convincing at it), throwing in the scene where Snape instinctively shields the trio from a werewolf and taking out his very worst moments could arguably be considered a case of recognizing the flaws with the novel and trying to improve.
I guess it comes down to how you view the character of Snape. For me at least, I don't think his depiction is necessarily flawed, he's just a complicated character. And you can kind of see in the fandom how people are split on whether or not he managed to redeem himself/whether he died a good person. But since the movie simplifies him and makes him less ambiguously good, you end up stripping away that complexity.
Looks like they did the reverse of Voldemort with Snape.
Yeah ironically lol.
I do not care how Severus Snape is portrayed, book or film I think he is awesome!
I like him a lot as a character, but less so as a person. I was surprised by how many people really like Snape, there is a lot of fanfic out there about him. Which is totally fine though!
My only problem with Snape in the books is that there was no personal closure and no closure of his view of Harry.
Although technically in the memories it is said that Snape could not see Harry as a unique person (but only as a copy of James), there are signs that he eventually accepted Harry as he was, with the chapter of the silver doe being that moment of recognition, but Rowling does not point this out.
I wish the chapter of the prince's tale had been longer, to give closure to the character once and for all and explain his morality better so that we could forgive him, which would justify Harry naming his son Albus Severus.
Hm yeah very good point. I've also wondered did Snape ever regret the way he treated Harry, what was he thinking in his final moments. Especially after he learnt (or rather, was led to believe) that Harry needed to be sacrificed.
Regardless, I'll always hate Harry naming his son after him lol.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Apparently, Harry naming his son Albus Severus means that Harry not only learned that the two people he both loved and hated (Dumbledore and Snape) had both positive and negative traits in them, as well as recognition for everything they both did for him. Honoring Severus was a way of forgiving and also recognizing his best traits.
However, JK Rowling faltered in the Epilogue, because she practically didn't provide the character closure that Snape needed, which ended up seeming illogical for Harry to honor Severus. I also found it strange that Harry didn't honor Hagrid or McGonagall.
That's why I think there should have been more memories of Snape, showing his relationship with Lily better, showing his time as a Death Eater and his regrets, showing more scenes during the events of the books from Severus' perspective, and using the Patronus part as the moment of recognition, with Snape finally recognizing Harry for who he was, maybe going to the Headmaster's office and saying to Dumbledore's portrait "maybe Dumbledore, I only saw what I expected to see..." and finally accepting his mistakes.
In fact, I would have put four Potters instead of three (James Sirius, the twins Albus Rubeus and Severus Regulus, and Lily Minerva).
@@PedroHenrique-wf2xt Yeah I agree with you that it wasn't convincingly showed in the books & epilogue. Also with what you're saying about showing more from Snape's memories. You know something I thought would be good? Is, the chapter where Snape dies, having it from his perspective so we can see his thoughts.
To better show what book Snape sounds like, maybe you could have played snippets from the Stephen Fry audiobooks?
I know there's the copyright risk, but Stephen Fry does a great job portraying Snape, so maybe it could have been worth it to better present your arguments of Snape's emotions.
I remember Snape's anger in the last chapter of Book 3, with him screaming how Harry was responsible for Sirius Black's escape - Stephen Fry made it so real.
That's an interesting idea I never thought about that. I have no idea how it'd work with copyright to be honest, but I'll see if I can find out.
Yeah, in the movies I never doubted he was in the good side, always thought he was acting tough
Mmm not surprised but it does prove my point, I think they made it too obvious.
To be honest, Snape was a dick in books and a grumpy, unfullfilled man in films.
Though one thing remains the same - he really hated Gryffindors with all of his hate.
All of his bullies were in that house after all.
Part of the reason I made this video is because I've seen some people with a romanticised version of Snape, there's so much fanfic about him. But he really wasn't a good guy.
Tbh, Snape in books is just a terrible written character.
I'm curious to hear why you think that?
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt It just seems to me that what Snape is feeling towards Lily is not love, it's an obsession. Snape sees her as his property (literally, that's his life goal - to get a woman that has never been interested in him romantically and he just can't get over it). And just because she doesn't want him, he's acting like a complete bully and asshole to everyone else, even after her death. He didn't even quit being a deatheater because of realizing it's bad or realizing that muggles suffer or something like that, he did it only because his obsession target was in danger :D For me, Snape is a selfish person who spent his life wanting a woman who never loved him back (in a romantic way) and just because he can't have her, he's arrogant and mean to everyone else. I really like Snape in movies, because he's just a strict teacher in there and his relationship with Lily is much better written... but in books... :D
@@BaronMartin Yeah I agree with you, but I don't think it makes him a badly written character. More like a bad person, but there are definitely people like him in reality as well.
Honestly, I blame more on the pacing and JK's writing skills in portraying her ideas. She made it clear that Snape loves Lily, not obsessed but from your comment, it's clear she fails to portray that. Cos if he was truly "obsessed" he could have potioned her, found dark ways to resurrect her, mind art someone into Lily and outright killing Harry at the first meeting.
@@MayasMotivation…. He’s not obsessed bc he didn’t attack her directly?
Snape did something brave and heroic. That didn't make him a good person. They made it a joke in the movies but Neville was absolutely terrified of Snape with good reason.
McGonagall was a strict, no nonsense teacher yet the students respected her and weren't terrified of her because she was also fair to *all* of the students.
Most people say he acted like he did because of his abusive home. Well Harry grew up in an abusive home and he turned out totally the opposite of Snape.
Agreed. What was really absent in the movies was the fact that Snape made a series of increasingly bad and selfish decisions across his entire life, where other characters chose to rise above their troubled past and do good (Sirius?). He only changed when something affected him personally.
Harry had friends, Severus didn't. Harry's parents were good people from whom he inherited good qualities, which cannot be said of Snape's father.
I never understood the redemption arc they tried with Snape The man was a monster and him betraying the Dark Lord doesn't redeem him in any way Because he is still an asshole And many of his horrific acts Just were completely unrelated to him being a double agent and was just him being cruel to be cruel
And his defection from Lord Voldemort has nothing to do with him revoking his evil ways and his merely him seeking revenge against a singular individual for killing someone he liked He is still just as evil Because his defection does not come from a desire to do good It's a desire to have Revenge His morality did not change And he did not renounce his past actions as horrific and he did not seek atonement just revenge and He is still presumably a murderer he was one of the dark lords elite soldiers so he presumably murdered a lot of innocent people before Lily got killed
He knows that the chosen one Harry Potter needs to become strong to defeat the Dark Lord but he goes out of his way to sabotage Harry
And many of his acts as a teacher should have gotten him fired or even arrested He outright threatens Harry Potter with torture when he thinks Harry stole some supplies
Intentionally destroyed Harry's schoolwork just so he could give him a zero for no reason just bullying a student
And showed intense favoritism to one house Wow intentionally going out of his way to ruin the education of another house
he went out of his way to get another teacher fired In particular a teacher that was teaching The chosen one very effectively how to fight Dark Wizard So congratulations snap you joined the good side supposedly to take down the Dark Lord only to intentionally stifle the chosen ones learning how to fight Dark Wizards
as for his love of Lily honestly it's creepy rather than romantic and tragic he obsessed over a married woman and it would go on to be an absolute demon to her son simply because he was born from someone he disliked
That's horrible And showed that his love was less love and more just obsession If he actually loved her he would take care of her son he would treat her son with respect
Him being such an incredibly horrible teacher it just really doesn't line up that he's even employed as a teacher he seems incapable of actually teaching anything his students aren't learning because he's not teaching he's just bullying
so Hogwarts what is supposed to be a prestigious the most prestigious school for Wizards has one of its classes where its professor will go out of its way to fail students
his conduct actually is so bad he wouldn't even be a good drill instructor he's even worse than that he takes it further 'cause at least with a drill instructor your hard work will persevere and you're molded into a success while with snape no you're just going to fail you can never succeed in a test when the teacher intentionally destroys your test work
a bunch of young wizards are going to go into the world with very little knowledge of Potion Unless of course they were part of the evil house of Hogwarts
And it reflects really badly dumbledore and the school in general
with all his horrific deeds that he's doing for no reason other than he's a nasty person I don't see redemption in him he's just getting back at the Dark Lord for killing someone he liked but betraying evil does not inherently make one good
And I just really thought it weird at the end where Harry Potter names one of his kids after snape And says he was the bravest man he's ever met And that's just simply put not true
Being a double agent Sure that is pretty brave I can pick up plenty of characters in the story that were more brave though including anyone who just straight out stood against the Dark Lord
My take on Snape is he really spent almost a lifetime making bad and morally wrong decisions, then at the end of his life began to repent but only because it was something that personally affected him. I think the quote from Stannis in game of thrones is very relevant here, that a good act doesn't wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each deserves it's own reward.
These are literally my exact thoughts on Snape.
I also found it odd that he was such a good spy that he could completely hide his emotions from Voldemort, the person hates for killing Lily, yet in every other instance he was unable to hide his hatred/disdain towards people. His characterization is honestly detrimental to the books.
There are many things I love in Harry Potter but Snape will never be one of them.
I hope they do get adam driver to play snape in the tv series
Adam Driver would be such a brilliant Snape. He'd really be able to bring the emotional intensity needed.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I mean watch his performance in "marriage story"
Snape did the right thing for the wrong reasons
Yep agreed.
As bad as Snape is I have always hated James ed serious serious especially because he betrays lupin and the books and tries to get snape killed by using lupins werewolf form and also he never stops being a bully to snape even though he knows they were wrong to James and Sirius were just adult children and I cannot stand other one of them
I don't really have any strong feelings on James but I have to say Sirius is one of my favourite characters, I was so sad when he died.
so basically one big reversed "Dumbledore asked calmly."
Lol yeah pretty much.
Same goes for Malfoy, most people who only seen the movies tend to have positive thoughts about him. He’s way more of an asshole in the books..
Ah yeah very true I forgot about Malfoy. Yeah that would also explain why there's so much fanfic about him.
I agree, to a point. It depends upon what lens you want to view the character, and how you interpret the intent of the statements in the books. (Forget the movie version, that Snape is clearly portrayed as the tragic antihero. I wouldn't use the term whitewashed - more .... diluted. They made him more appealing to mainstream consumers.)
Dumbledore told Snape that Voldemort would return the night Lily and James died. Made it quite clear they were not safe from him (Voldemort). Given that, Snape was put in a very unique and awkward position. He had an image to maintain - that of a Death Eater. If he was ever to return to Voldemort's side as a spy, he needed everyone around him think he was "evil.". Especially because the children of Death Eaters were in his care for 9-10 months out of the year. So - he treated children terribly. He did what any good Death Eater would do. Did he overdo it? Maybe. Did he enjoy it sometimes? Maybe. Would he have done it if he didn't have to maintain the image of a good Slytherin Death Eater for all the little Slytherins that came to Hogwarts? (That's your $50 question. Would he have continued to be a jerk/asshole? Something to ponder.)
This does not excuse his issues with James/Sirius/Lupin and his treatment of Harry. That shit was personal and did trigger Snape. But at the end of HBP, keep in mind Snape just killed his only "friend" in cold blood. And he did it for two reasons - a) to spare his friend further pain and humiliation (ego much, Albus?) and b) to continue to be a spy/aide and do what he could to ultimately defeat Voldemort. He knew Harry had to die at this point, too. There's a lot going on in that man's tortured brain in that moment. To say all of his rage/unhinged portrayal is due to his hatred of Harry (Which is displaced from James/Sirius/Lupin) misses the nuances of what Albus Dumbledore meant to Snape, and what Snape just did. Something to ponder.
Hey, really good thoughts thanks for sharing. You're right diluted is probably a better word to use, diluted for a mainstream audience.
Interesting hypothetical around why Snape treated students badly. Personally I feel like it wasn't even a part of the cover, it's just an extension of his internal frustration and bitterness.
Good points about what he had to go through killing Dumbledore, his only true confidant, then thinking he had been protecting Harry only to sacrifice him. I agree with you.
I didn't mean to imply that Snape's rage purely comes from his relationship with Harry, it's definitely more complex than that, and his relationship with Harry is just one expression of his internal struggle.
as it's mentioned in the video, there's a rumor (I won't claim if it's true or not) that Rowling told Rickman the truth about Snape because Rickman didn't want to play an evil character.
interesting enough, that happened before it was published the first book were Snape shows his true colors as a hero in the shadows.
all of book snape actions before Rickman was told "the truth" clearly point at a spiteful man that enjoys mocking any student that's not a slytherin.
all of snape actions until the big reveal can be done by a good Snape or an evil Snape. I have to acknowledge one thing though. Rowling made the character masterfully. you never know if he's a death eater, a spy of dumbledore, a double spy of voldemort or completely independent from both. until Snape's sacrifice, there's no solid proof of his true colors.
at no point you know if his actions are sincere or done to keep his role as a spy, or double spy.
so, here is the question. before Rickman made it clear that he wouldn't play an evil character, was Rowling plan to make Snape a hero in the shadows or to reveal he fooled Dumbledore and was a loyal death eater?
just one single simple detail. in the first book. Quirrelmort claims to be able to bring back harry's parents if he joins him. be it true or not, what makes us believe he couldn't make a similar promise to Snape and tell him "obey me and I will bring back that woman you asked me to spare. as you can see, I'm still alive. I have power over death itself"
wouldn't Snape agree to obey his lord in exchange of having Lily's back? if he can have Lily, why would he care if that insuferable Potter dies?
but, if that were the ending, Rickman would had refused to play snape on the last movie(s) and that would be a tragedy. better we make him a whitewashed hero portrayed by the best possible actor for this role.
Very interesting points! Personally I think Voldemort just didn't realise how much Snape loved Lily. He says in the final book that "he just desired her", which has its own implications. But as to when JKR thought of the twist, I truly have no idea. I do feel like she planned out something like 75-85% of the main series.
Awesome vid
Thank you!
I'd argue that the movie version is more credible given that Snape was a successful double agent for years; he'd have to be "cold and emotionless" to succeed in his mission. That doesn't mean that Snape didn't have feelings or that his feelings were particularly noble, only that he'd have to conceal them from Voldemort.
I guess he's more effective as a double agent, but I think it makes him less interesting as a character.
I think the OOTP occlumency scenes were the most accurate translation of Snapes anger issues
Yeah they were better than I remembered when I went back and rewatched them. But I think they mainly dropped the ball when Harry views his worst memory.
Tim Roth would've made Snape VERY accurate.
I've only seen him in The Incredible Hulk with Edward Norton. What do you think of Adam Driver?
Snape was the most evil character in the series
I'd give that title to someone like Voldemort or Bellatrix tbh, because at least Snape did dedicate himself at the end of his life to Dumbledore's cause.
I do agree with your general point, but I'm not sure you chose the right example to prove your point with the Half-Blood-Prince scene. Snape just killed Dumbledore, which he never wanted to do. Of course he would be unhinged after this act. Much more controlled people would be as well. To reduce his behaviour here to his feelings towards the Potters seems wrong to me.
I chose that scene to really illustrate the difference in reactions between movie Snape and book Snape. It's a good example, at least in my opinion, of the differences in their emotional composure. And as you said, it's not just due to the Potters, but just the general situation around him.
I think it makes more sense in the movie that harry would name his son severus. If you like book snape more, that's fine, but book snape is not a character you would name your child after.
Yeah, book Harry naming his kid after Snape is just crazy lol.
Rowling is pronounced 'Rolling', row as in 'row a boat', not as in 'row', an argument!
Funnily enough I pronounced it that way in my earlier videos on Harry Potter, but then a lot of people told me I was pronouncing it wrong lol. Now I'm not sure!
Snape is a Bad guy ... End of discussion ! PERIOD
People sympathizing him when Sirius , Lupin , James suffered more than him just shows how badly movies messed up .
While is reality ( books ) , other than protecting Harry because of HIS OWN GUILT that Lily died because of him ... He did nothing Great . Also
Dumbledore>>>>>>>>>>> Snape . Dude wouldn't even had a charcter arc if it was Dumbledore. He trusted Snape & gave him a chance .
Snape is a Great double agent, agreed ! But never was a Good person .
The thing I hate the absolute most is Harry naming his son after Snape. Even though Snape did sacrifice a lot, he is nowhere near worthy of that (the "bravest" man he'd ever known). Harry should have named his son after Sirius if it was going to be anyone.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Yeah it was kind of unexpected for me too ... But then again May be Harry just wanted to respect the guy who protected him for whatever reason it may be .
What can we say ... Harry is too Noble to hold grudge on someone !
@@Dr.MonicaNaik Yeah possibly - he's a better man than me in that case!
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptHaha 😂 ... Mee tooo 😅 !
I really understand people not liking Harry naming his son Snape. Snape certainly didn't deserve it, but I really like it (ok, Snape is my favorite character and I admit that, and yes, I don't have much of a say, because I'm reading the books now, and I'm finishing 3, but I know things that Snape did) like, I think it's a way to show how good Harry really was and maybe show some appreciation to Snape (yes, Snape was cruel, but I think Harry would feel that a little). a bit like Snape saving him just to hate his father, like a "we're kiting now, okay?" Other than that, very good video.@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt
If you want acuteness READ A F BOOK.
Snape in the books was hilarious 😂😅 His scenes were always the most entertaining by FAR
Haha, the books as a whole are a lot more fun than the movies. I really miss the sassy Harry, he's a lot more brooding in the movies.
book Snape is uber Snape
Well I knew that the movies ruined Hermione, Ron and his sister, you remember some suggestions?
Yeah, there'll be a Hermione video next Saturday probably (10th) but I don't want to do too many of the similar topic in a row so I'm trying to space it out.
I prefer movie Snape. His book self was unbearable.
Are you doing Hermione next week, if I may ask?
Hey, thanks for being patient I know you've been looking forward to it. I'll be working on it next, so it'll probably go live week after next on the 10th!
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt Yep, thx! Hermione is also another misunderstood character as those who have only watched the movies exclusively know her from a surface level (yeah, thx Emma and Kloves)
@@LazyOldFusspot_3428 no problem! I fit in the videos around my job so yeah I'll be working on it from tomorrow then scheduling it for Saturday 10th. Yeah agree with you Hermione really wasn't portrayed well in the movies, I don't really like Emma Watson as an actor either tbh.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt If there was an alternative actress suggestion for Hermione based on your personal preference, who would it be and why?
@@LazyOldFusspot_3428 Hmm good question. I'll have to have a think about that! I actually can't think of anyone off the top of my head. What about you?
I don't think it's 'wrong" it's an adaptation, characters are different in most adaptations.
For me I'd say adaptations should stay faithful to the spirit of the original material. Pretty much all adaptations will change, remove and add scenes or dialogue, but I think so long as it's done respectfully to the original story then it's a good adaptation. Lord of the Rings, The Expanse and the first few seasons of Game of Thrones were good adaptations I'd say.
I started on the movies and liked snape, when I read the books I was actually amazed at how much of a douche he is💀
Haha, yeah he's so much more horrible in the books.
The biggest difference between book and movie Snape is imho his plead to Dumbledore.
In the movie, he is on his knees and begs Dumbledore to hide and protect the Potter family. That Snape is the reason why Voldemort targeted Harry in the first place because he leaked parts of the prophecy to Voldemort is completely skipped.
In the book he goes to Dumbledore and asks him to protect Lilly. And only Lily. He dosen't care for James and Harry at all and only gives in, after Dumbledore brutally calls him out for his selfishness. Also, like i said, Snape is the reason Voldemort acted because of the prophecy in the first place. And his first reaction, after he found out what Voldemort concluded, was NOT to go to Dumbledore - it was going to Voldemort and asking HIM to spare Lily. He probably saw this as an opportunity to get with his dream girl and at the same time getting rid of James and Harry without having to deal with it himself.
It was only after he got doubts that Voldemort would keep his promise to spare Lily (or maybe Voldemort even directly refused it) that he went to Dumbledore. If he had a guarantee that Voldemort would have spared Lily, i'm very sure that he would have never left Voldemorts side. He is simply too immature to let anything go, let it be his jealously for James, his unrequited love for Lily, or his hatred for his muggle father.
So he still didn't change, he didn't regret - he only got scared that he would lose his obsessive, one-sided love. And why his motivation being love may sounds honorable at first, it is still massively selfish to only care for Lily and wanting her for himself, without considering Harry and James, and without considering the true feelings of Lily at all. The alliance with Dumbledore was therefore purely strategical and he probably only became loyal to Dumbledore because he felt he owed that to Lily. Love can be selfish too if it's morphed to this obsessive, egoistic degree - see Merope Gaunt.
Sometimes i wonder why Snape, as the potions master he is, never tried to subdue her with a love potion.
Would totally fit with his character and my bet is that he simply lacked the opportunity.
Love dosen't excuse being egoistic, possesive, jealous, toxic, and straight out evil.
Snape therefore has no true redemption, and it's becoming really obvious if you compare it to real redemption arcs like Zuko from Avatar The Last Airbender.
All great points and I completely agree. Good reference to Merope Gaunt as well I didn't think about her. I do also personally feel like Snape didn't truly redeem himself, although I know plenty of people disagree.
Book Snape is quite visceral.
Yeah, reading his scenes in the books reminds you just how crazy and unhinged he can be.
When you said "whitewashed",ı thought raceswapped or something.
Haha, just in the sense that they try to show him way more positively, and they cut out a lot of his negative traits and moments.
69th like. Good work all. Also I really respect setting book to movie objectives, very insightful and englightening
Thank you!
I don't think Snape was bad in the books. He usually only ever took one points from Griffindor in the book compared with taking fifty points in the movies. And the "venomous" quotes you example in the video sound more like him teaching HP. "No unforgivable curses from you until you can learn to keep your mouth closed.". The same thing Snape was trying to teach HP in their private lessons. And HP in the book was a little asshole to Snape always. He wouldn't even call him Professor. If you re read the books and notte how HP spoke to and treated Snape it is easy to see. A child who acted like that to a teacher would be a monster nowadays. Snape had good reason to HATE James Potter and all of his friends who bullied and tormented him at school for seven years. Why? Because they felt like it? HP had no real reason to hate Snape when he arrived at school.
only taking a dozen points at a time doesn’t make up for actively bullying every student besides his slytherin students
I think possibly you've forgotten all the things Snape does in the books. He actively goes out of his way to provoke and bully many of the students, he targets Harry for no reason right from their very first lesson, and he encourages bullying of non Slytherin students whilst ignoring any accusations against them. Snape provokes Harry deliberately by targeting things he knows will upset him, like his dead parents. Remember that Snape is a grown man, whereas Harry is 11 when he starts at Hogwarts, his actions are inexcusable imo.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2ptAgreed 💯 and to add further more Harry doesn't start hating Snape or Is rude to Snape from the get go , so I don't know what they are talking about, He respects all his other teachers, unlike Snape who bullied everyone not just Harry
@@googleuser5091 Yeah I feel like anyone defending Snape must either have not read the books or not read them for a while. Snape actively starts bullying Harry from the first moment they meet.
Same for Draco..especially Draco…
From what I remember, Draco mostly gets his nastier moments all cut from the movie.
Snape is the one character I prefer the movie version of
Alan Rickman definitely did a lot of the leg work in making Snape more likable in the movie series.
Nope, my dad guessed the plot twist while we read HBP. It was yeas before DHs release
Fair play to him I'm impressed. Was there anything in particular that gave it away?
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt I guess Dumbledores constant trust in him and the fact he double played the dark lord. Then he thought, what if he double-double played. Pretending to be with the dark lord but this was part of Dumbledores plan to make sure Snape gains trust. I guess my dad being a puzzle and mystery murder solver could have helped him.
@@TheGrindelwald Nice yeah smart of him to work it out, I think most people didn't guess the final twist.
All the characters are modified and adapted in the movies and (in the books) Harry is not a reliable narrator. That's why I like movies, because the actors show the characters how they think they would think and act. Technically the films are not canon, even if they are approved by the author.
The thing about adaptations is I don't really like it when they stray away from the original essence of a character. Thinking of them as non canon probably helps, but it's a shame to think a lot of people will never be exposed to the source material if they just watch an adaptation.
@@MediaRetrospective-sb2pt
An adaptation does not have to be 100% faithful to the original material, as they are different media they have different methods, possibilities and limitations. I don't think all is lost if a medium brings a title closer to another market and opens the possibility of more people reaching the original material. Searching and reading the parts and each assembly is the responsibility of the consumer. It is absurd to demand that a single medium be the latest and greatest possible version, even if it is multidisciplinary. There will always be something to improve, a new perspective, a new form, and the art and each experience can be enriched, transformed, corrupted or deformed. In the case of HP, it was a watershed in many ways and I think we have already reached the point where it is being asked too much for what it really is, a children's fantasy story.
@@aissamira "we have already reached the point where it is being asked too much for what it really is, a children's fantasy story". I do really agree with this to be fair. It's the fate of any popular media after enough time passes I guess.