Update: Here is the clip of vallun confirming how many viewers he gets from embedding www.twitch.tv/rozemmo/clip/ProudNiceCucumberTwitchRaid-58IjOf8eZZ5jX52P Here is mukluks response if you guys wanna read it! I will be going through this and answering him tomorrow as its 3 am here and sadly his comment got flagged for some reason when he posted this here! (the thread got locked for some reason Despairge) www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/s/WIz5OoLlCe
@@darensgw2 after reading and watching his response I at least believe his intentions are good. You could argue that it's still immoral, but as he points out it gives a very small boost. At least on his own website the embed is right at the top and very obvious and if people are on his website there's a high chance they'd be interested in the stream anyway. The fact that the embed is right down the bottom of the page on Guildjen (meaning that most people visiting the page aren't even aware it's there) kinda sucks, but that's not up to Muk. If Guildjen were to move the embeds up top somewhere I think I would have no problem with it to be honest.
@@3renegade3 did you not see the numbers? Its not a small boost. its over 100 fake viewers consistently. In a lot of the cases, its the majority of the viewers. I mean, the numbers were literally right there on the screen. You must be trolling
@@BittahDemon a bit more than I initially thought. The embed on his own sight is prominent and valid and the numbers from that one are quite small, but the GuildJen embed is a bit problematic especially in light of the new guidelines Darens highlighted in his next video.
I'm gona be real Darens, I don't agree with this take. Just gona address it point by point. 1) Yes, a embed stream does use bandwidth, but if I'm really concerned about it, I'll just close my browser, and if I NEED the site that bad, then I'll just load it on my phone, which most people who have a PC, would also have. Also, I don't think people are purposely hiding their embeds on sites. I think that's just how it's oriented most of the time. Top of the site is almost always reserved for the banner/logo of the site, and the sides are usually there for either site browsing or actual ads from brands/stores. Bottom isn't very intrusive, but you might still get seen legitimately by a viewer. I also personally like seeing streamers (yes playing in the background) as opposed to random Gosha Game #754 or products I don't even care about. 2) That's not a problem with embeds, that's a problem with Twitch and similar content creation/consumer sites. Popular things get more attention and more money. that's just is how it is, that's not unique to embeds. Anyone with some marketing knowledge can tell you that. If you want smaller content creators to get attention, then you have to look for it, or they have to really stand out, it's that simple. 3) No, we have not established that it's a negative for everyone, just that it's your opinion that it is. When you go to a store, and you see that there are signs for XYZ brand, or a ad playing at the kiosk, or someone comes up to you and offers a sample of their product, do you complain that they are taking up your time? That they are being purposely malicious? Or inflating their sales unfairly? It is business, and they need to feed themselves, and their family. Content creators forming partnerships and collaborating is not malicious nor bad practice. So embeds on sites, where both parties are consensually agreeing to the arrangement is perfectly fine, and even good for the community, as it fosters bonds. At 9:47, if you're suggesting that someone going into another game, and overtaking the other streamers is bad, then I'd beg to differ. It's commonly referred to as cross-promotion, and is a common strategy used by companies, organizations, and the like for mutually promoting their products/services. In the case where streamers with embeds are going to other games, this only servers to bring their audience over to other game, which ultimately helps it. In exchange they get to dip into that games audience as well. It's a win-win situation for them. And if your argument is that it's bad for the viewer, I also disagree. That is not a objective claim to make, it is a subjective one. Personally I enjoyed seeing Vallun explore FFXIV despite the fact that I prefer GW2, and I wouldn't have seen it, had it not been for a embed. Look, I was a content creator too, granted I am not big, and I haven't done it in a while. That said, I don't mind people who invest in advertising their channels, content, or services. That's just how it works. They should be rewarded for putting forth that effort. It's not their fault that I am not performing at their level. And so it IS fair 13:30 and I have not ONCE clicked on any of those streams. Why? Cause it's not trying to grab my attention. It's just words and a tiny snapshot of what may be happening on stream. Stop shaming people for ppushing their products or services, cause then all you're doing is encouraging the market/community to stagnate. ... Drops are fine. That's a weird take ngl. Also while some of the viewers might be "fake" as you put it, there are many that are real, and some of them come either because of the drops themselves, OR they are attracted by the amount of viewers and want to see what all the fuss is about. 4) 21:46 You can choose to watch it just as much as you can choose to not watch it. Just press the pause button, I do it all the time on Monster Hunter wikis. And if it's hidden that's fine, cause I really only care if it's getting in the way of my reason for being on the site in the first place. The real cringe is not the embeds, but the fact that content creators are actively blasting other content creators just for doing their own thing. I'm relatively new to this drama, but I will be looking into all parties take on this and see if maybe there are some valid points that may lead credence to this drama. We'll see.
Unsubs, sorry mate I'd rather watch real game content than this, plus you could have approached it in a far better way so guess we all learn new things every day
His target streamer (muk) replied: "[Embedding] abides by all of twitches terms of service. It generates zero ad revenue, as all embeds do. My sponsors see my stats WITHOUT the extra views. I'll send her (Guildjen, the other cc that is embedding muk's twitch) a message and see if she would be interested in having it show higher up on the page, like it does on my sites main page, as I find that valid feedback." This is all just pointless drama. Btw, people with the real malicious intentions are using this vid to attack the streamers you mentioned. Good job darens. Keep going for that arenanet partnership so you also get a taste of what its like.
This is the biggest non-issue I have ever seen dramatised for clout. I will no longer participate in anything that has your involvement. You created a mob mentality and harrassed someone over this? Do better.
To be fair this seems to me like a youtube/twitch problem they should seperate on website, app and embedded watches. So sponsors could ask to see all that data feel like that would pretty quickly shut down this exploit since it would be a bad look to have such inflated artificial views. I personally don't care at all about the bandwidth but that is cause i don't have data limits and having lived in countries with data limits i can see how scummy that is as extra data packages are usually crazily priced.
First off, I agree with your first point of embeds not auto-playing and not being hidden. But, your second point of bad streamers hogging viewers is just ridiculous....if it's a bad streamer, nobody will stay. Good streamers rise to the top. People don't just look at numbers and ignore that they are a poor streamer. As for your metrics calculator...wouldn't Vallun and Mukluk have the exact same numbers of "fake" viewers? Muk's website has the stream paused so I doubt many people have it active. I feel like the metrics calculator isn't quite legit.
condolences for watching a guy named vallun that calls ppl pdf's, tells them to off themselves, and calls them cloutchasers when he dies in pvp not my choice of streamer, that's for sure.
I think it’s fine as long as content creators are transparent about it. Using the website or watching twitch is free after all. But a website should make it easily visible to the viewer that there is an embed active, especially if it’s on autoplay.
I don't think Mukluk is being malicious when he embeds his own livestream on his own website. Its the equivalent of plugging your socials at the end of a UA-cam video tbh. I think the GuildJen situation is pretty insidious due to how its displayed. I've had a WvW build opened for HOURS while zerging, so this is pretty rough to hear. What Fextralife did was incredibly cringe and malicious due to how large their umbrella of content was since they run a ton of game wikis and forums. I don't think creators embedding on their brand-sites is on the same level. Maybe I don't understand the bigger picture here, and I'm willing to be proven wrong, but this feels kinda nothingburger to me But Vallun can go suck rocks lol
@@guys-b3in-dudes embedding on their own site i dont mind as long as it isnt hidden, but muk and others also have their streams hidden on guildjen which is more of a problem
If it were equivalent to plugging one's socials at the end of a UA-cam video, why wouldn't Mukluk simply have his Twitch channel link plugged on GuildJen rather than have the livestream embedded?
@FrivolousFrog-r5h My socials link comment was directly in reference to his embedded player on his website. But technically speaking, any embedded link is a literal link to whatever the widget is. If it's a UA-cam video or a livestream, both act as a link back to a social platform. I also wanna reiterate that I don't condone how GuildJen worked the streams onto the site. I went so far as to call it "insidious" in my original comment For the case as to WHY an embed over a hyperlink, I couldn't say. Some people like embedded widgets and how seamlessly they fit/look. There's a good case for UA-cam videos as you can just stay within the web page and navigate the rest of its contents while the video plays. I don't personally know as to why you'd do a livestream embed over a hyperlink. Obviously, you could cite the Fextralife incident and say it's malicious, but I don't think it's that simple here. Like I've mentioned before, the livestream embed was on his website long before GuildJen's, and no one seemed to really care until we saw how scummy Jen's did it.
@Snowshill Well, the problem is the way that GuildJen implemented the streams, hidden at the very bottom of the page on autoplay. But I do need to emphasize that Muk doesn't have control over how GuildJen designs her own website. He COULD have maybe done some more due diligence on the subject, but I think this might be a huge case of him trusting a co-collaborator more than he should have. That said, I think it is VERY WEIRD to have someone embed his livestream on a platform he has no control over, and a passing referral of "Go here for this guide I used" Gonna give a bit of a yikes on that one
The only thing you accomplished with this is to guarantee I unsub and won't watch any more of your content regardless of how valuable it's been to me in the past. Your issue with embedding is fine, the incredibly irresponsible way you went about expressing it is not.
I have always been available to talk and communicated this to everyone, he has said he didn't want to talk to me before so I respected that. I talked to him today because vallun revealed the embeds gave around 100-300 viewers so he would know cause he probably didn't and we talked with no problems.
Didn't notice that about the Guild Jen website they embedded the streams at the very bottom of the page lmao so easy to be looked over. Also that website is super slow loading its horrendous honestly.
What's crazy is you're bagging on the more popular gw2 creators that YOU have learned from and stolen their video structures.. yet you choose to hate on them.
lol I did not inspire myself upon this creators, they are good but they are not what I like for me personally. Mukluk is mainly about well scripted videos and memes, vallun about build guides. I do NOTHING of these things, if anything I got inspired by teapot and asmongold to make videos like them specifically. You can keep coping that this is jelousy but this is only because you know im right about all of this.
Fextralife banned me from their Twitch years ago for simply asking if they were affiliated with the charity Extra Life. Surprise, NOPE! Just took the gamer charity name and slapped a letter in front... 🤣🤣🤣
While I agree that some kinds of embedding is bad (fully hidden page elements or placed in the obscure way to not get noticed) I think embedding like Mukluk did on his page (top of it) is alright. Although his % coming from embeds is insane.
all these comments saying its fine to do that lmao XD. if Hardstuck,SC,Metabattle starts doing it its joever for every new streamer there is no way u can compete without getting partnered with these sites. so yeah its a problem but biggest issue is twitch they should keep embed but shouldn't count embed viewers as viewers
I'm sure the Overwatch League had hugely inflated viewership due to Twitch drops, one of the many factors that led to it's eventual demise despite all the money being thrown at it.
Honestly there isnt GW2 streamer is popular enough for this to matter in the case of viewer count, and also, you should never keep tabs open if you aren't actively using them. I feel like this is just trying to create drama and then to farm that drama. Just my opinion.
Gw2 content creators tearing each others throats. What a wonderful timeline it is. Btw embedding or not, building twitch career on gw2 is lost cause and noone trying streaming seriously should waste their time on that game.
I would never understand people that see something objectively wrong and just comment ''Who cares'' or ''They need to make their money so it's ok''. Seen these types of comments under not only this vid but also the one breaking data on how black lion chests are a scam because Anet's straight up puts false drop chances on them. It's kinda sad.
Integrity of the game is an excellent point, the community would have to evaluate whether the increase in "viewership" numbers is worth the loss in faith of not just the base community, but also exterior communities that are interested in the content. However, I don't think conflating Twitch drops and artificially increasing viewership is logical because there's transparency with the viewers and sponsors of the streamers participating in the drop events, and the aspect of decreasing returns to Twitch drops as viewers/players gradually devalue the items dropped over time.
Hey thanks for bringing awareness! I didn't know anything about this. Tbf I like twitch drops if done sparingly. If you are doing twitch drops every month then yea that would be bad, but once or twice a year (like how gw2 does it ) is fine imo
@@darensgw2 new twitch meta: 1. Start embedding 2. Convince your audience "it's not that bad". 3. Smaller creator calls them out. 4. Got a bigger "pro embedding" audience then said creator. 5.?????? 6. $$$$
My guy crying over 100 views or something. If anything, this is a twitch issue, not a Muk issue, specially since the guy already turned off the autoplay on mobile.
First, your community went after Mukluk because he doesn't make guide videos the way you think he should. Now you're going after him because he doesn't follow your rules on how he should operate on Twitch? I'm noticing a pattern.
What happens when one of these embedded streamers raid someone? Do they inherit fake viewers or does the embedded stream just go offline? As a small streamer, this would suck to get flooded with inauthentic viewership
@@darensgw2 Daren could you please clarify your reply here. Are you saying no, that the embedded stream doesn't go offline? So the person who is streaming, who gets raided by, for e.g. Muk, has their numbers artificially inflated as well?
Just going to add here too, I saw the reddit post, and Mukluk's response. I hope that you were able to have a proper conversation with him. He seems pretty transparent(I watched his clip) about everything, and he really doesn't seem to want drama over something he isn't hiding. The long term 'numbers boost' seems small compared to when he didn't embed on Guildjen's site. I would hope Mukluk considers asking GJ to make the embedding more visible, because the bandwidth thing definitely sucks for people who don't know. Or he just asks to be taken off the site. In hindsight, it might have been better to reach out to him before making the video(just assuming you didn't because of what he said on reddit). That's just my opinion though. Can understand from a creator perspective, shoot first, questions later, gets more traction, but it can come at a cost to image and integrity. You do you though! Still appreciate the education about embedding from this video :)
I have seen MukLuks response to this and I wanna apologise to Mukluk for jumping to conclusions after just this video. He is one of the main pillars of this community, keeping it healthy making sure we have more content to look forward to. So this seems like a lot of outrage over nothing hurting one of the nicest people in our community. Hoping you meant well, please consider the consequences this video has had and see if you can heal the situation. That’s my two cents anyways
You can use U-Block to rightclick & block the element. That should hide the embed (including sound) across any page on said domain. If you make a mistake or want to reenable it, just delete that entry from the blocklist. If it doesn't get removed, keep trying. Sometimes you need to delete multiple nested elements get the entire thing.
Smart system, but you're a number off. x0.33 is 33% of something, because you're multiplying by less than one amount of the base number. Adding 33% can be easily done by x1.33, since you still want to include the base number.
To be honest this sounds like a case of salt, Darren has streamed for years and has a huge youtube presence but his twitch presence is lacking. Sounds like he just wants more sponsorship and money, which is fair. Muk is one of the biggest content creators for gw2 so if he is receiving tons of sponsorships from anet I don't understand the problem that impacts the community. Vallun is very similiar. In my opinion he is the biggest pvp/wvw content creator speaking in terms of youtube and other media presence.
Hmm, I see the problem. In a bit of a defence to Mukluk, I am quite sure when he is actually playing Guild Wars 2 his actual viewer ratio would be way more legit though. When he plays other games besides Guild Wars I don’t tune in and he is a good streamer and he does do a lot for the community. If he cuts out the embedding he will still have a lot credit left in the community
yeah he would still have a lot, thats why its so weird they do it haha that being said he gets like 50-60% on gw2 usually way better than vallun for sure
Didn't twitch do something about it after the FextraLife drama? Still scummy, was wondering why that guy and Muk get so many viewers no matter what they play
they did but it was specfiic to fextralife under my understanding People in other games still embed as well, new world is probably the biggest in terms of embed the other mmos are pretty chill
worth mentioning Anet sponsored Fextralife to stream GW2 for a 5 figure sponsorship. Fextra literally stole 10s of thousands of dollars from EoD marketing budget. That affects us all directly.
Is that addon something we can take as gospel though? I downloaded that extension to see what other streamer's stats were and Emi is at 18% whereas everyone else was 80%-150%
You could have (and should have) contacted Mukluk first. I'll never subscribe to anyone that views manufacturing drama & outrage as a means of self-promotion. This isn't content this is just letting someone manipulate you into being their fall guy.
@@thisiskitta I don't subscribe to Mukluk. I just believe in responsible conversation and dialogue between content creators before posting knee-jerk reaction videos. Making assumptions about other people's views & perspectives, without asking, is rude.
I appreciate you explaining the embedding issue. I hope that it helps people to make appropriate action to correct this for there streams . Honor & truth , use to mean something . I get making money . One bad apple & all. Jen & Vallun need to move to another game . Kicked out of the partner program for being racist & toxic. Anet won't do anything to them. They could have been good for the game. They choose to be toxic , racist, narcissistic & greedy. Thank you for this
Maybe you address it way too late, but given the topic, this is a long video and I'm not going to finish more than the half I've already watched. However, what you're ignoring is that these fake views might boost an undeserving stream and funnel in real (money providing) viewers who would otherwise watch someone else, but they also funnel viewers into the game itself by pumping up total viewer count. There are upsides to the boost that I didn't hear you mention.
@@McPilch It has an upside for the health of the game. You can probably argue that somehow the inflated viewership will over all hurt something at some arbitrary scale, but specifically for the game, higher up twitch player count charts = more new players potentially coming to the game.
This is good info, thank you. Did not know guild gen embedded or that this was happening, or about the extension that lets you see - very cool. Wonder how many people who wvw keep guild gen open for builds and it actually affects their game, that would not be great. Also wonder what the stance of the companies who pay streamers to play their game for a few h is on this, given 70% of viewers are actually browsing a website for an unrelated game. Do they care or nah because their game is still on twitch with a larger view count.
Oh we're trying to stand up for the little-guy streamers? That's cool. You know what doesn't help smaller streamers? A bigger name in the community making a 1 hour video and trash talking small/new streamers. So now we go after Mukluk, a generally PG dude who doesn't get themselves banned from partner programs for various racial slurs or general troll-asshattery. Sure. That makes sense, lets do this! Wow... the reach is real.. and getting another guy whos name isn't as muddy (yet) to make the video? Nike is good at playing people for sure. Muk isn't Fextralife and ANYONE equating him to that is nonsense. Got a problem with GuildJen's site and the way it embeds? Go talk to her. There is no big conspiracy nor some insidious plot. The only thing I see is someone NOT confronting the streamers and going by someone elses' word because they haven't discovered their just a useful tool for the actual tool. Don't do this. You're using someone elses content to try and get drama views. And look its works in the very short term, but that legit makes it just as bad as the 'embedding' drama you're trying to stoke here. In hindsight Muk should of just avoided GuildJen because there is too much baggage around her and Vallun. Teapot and his merry little boys tho definitely need to check themselves a bit too.
ty for calling out this topic. i am def disappointed in the behaviours of them. and they arent streamers i dislike but bad faith acts are bad faith acts, and to me. even if its small scale, they still participate in it
15:00 Twitch *alone* would be _at fault_ here. *Everyone* can embed their stuff and also *everyone* can install a browser extension that would block embed. I don't see the problem here, seriously. While it may help a streamer to be _more visible_ there isn't much other kickback from that. And also you're saying that everyone that has a low number of people in chat must have an embed or even fewbot? Did you know that there is ALOT of people watchting twitch (and also youtube) that don't have an account or choose (to prevent their recommendations to be changed) not to log in? Sorry to say but in my view this video is unneccessary rant that triggered a s*itstorm over some people. That's a behavior that I personally dislike thus I'll unsubscribe and avoid your content from now on. Bye!
In my experience, outrage farmers are a much bigger problem in our community than Twitch embeds are. If you were serious about helping solve the thing you see as an issue you'd talk to people before making this video. Looks like you are not interested in solving things, which is disappointing.
The people commenting seem to have never actually really watched these channels. The chats are quite active and nobody is staying that long on a site for it to truly stick anyways. This isn't 2005 it is 2024, people get what they want then leave. Hell, many run ad blockers and won't even see it due to that. Plus both especially Mukluk were getting these numbers before any embedding happened with stuff like GW2. You'd know this if you looked at his past streams. You are stirring up drama just because it makes you look good. The hero riding in to shine light on something! It is no different than a random ad on a site. They wouldn't have gotten it had they not been successful streamers. And you just pulled random numbers to display. You have no real way of knowing the exact numbers. The ones you posted make it seem like a majority are embedded! Ha! Just yeesh, you are not a hero. You are just stirring the pot for your own ends.
its still scummy behaviour. he has good viewership naturally why make it artificially higher? i like muk as a streamer but this is a low thing he is doing even if its small scale. and it did put a dent in him for me. i find it weird some are excusing bad faith acts.
@@ThyWeepingWillowScummy behavior is banning the person you're attacking from even replying. Then bandwagoning with others on that person to the point of even insulting their looks.
The jealousy and misinformation being spread by you and Nike is embarrassing lol. Atleast I know never to take anything you say or post seriously. I love knowing who to avoid and you and Nike are definitely to avoid.
@@NikeonaBikeMuk can't even comment on your stuff from what I heard. So you don't even let him defend himself. That isn't very standup for someone who says they are telling the truth.
Not sure how I missed this as being 3 days ago... embedding shouldn't be allowed unless done like Hardstuck does. Sorry but Mukluk is and was fully aware of the issue the embedding does. As I stated to one of your latest video's about this, this is why I'm not a content creator. Too much drama and too much can go awry and not in your favor either. Great video, thank you for sharing. BTW, Nike, clearly showed that even Muk was scrolling over the viewers with no explanation to the huge bump in views since the embedding. You, Nike and one other content creator has made a decision easy for me about a particular guild.
Sensationalist drama without any real understanding of how Twitch viewership actually works or whether the individuals accused of embedding are even aware their streams are being used in this fashion. Might as well be a 'reaction' stream, the outrage here is hypocritical at best. Are you reaching out to these streamers to make them aware you are monetizing their content? Or is the choice just to slander them without verifying their relationship with embedded sites? You've gotten ahead of yourself, maybe do some more research next time.
Who doesn't understand? Darens made quite clear he understands. And your idea that vallun and muk don't know they are even on her sight is laughable. These scam viewbots is mukluks compensation for her getting to use his content on her site. He is well aware the "service" she is providing.
No, I am definitly willing to give Guild Jen the benefit of the doubt in this matter because I do not neccessary see a malicious intent here. For promotion purposes it's in fact a lot better to have the stream playing. I myself have discovered a few other content creators this way and I don't think would have ever clicked on some generic looking button. The idea to place the streams to the bottom might have been to make them appear less intrusive. If they just wanted to shamelessly farm fake views they would have actually hid the streams like other websites do. This looks to me like actual promotion. Since the problem seems to be that twitch automatically starts playing the stream, no matter if it is in the focus or not.... It might be a good enough solution to simply move embedded streams to a well visible place on the website. This would reach interested people and others can just pause it or whatever.
both those hacks are so boring to watch, good to see that those viewers were fake in the first place. The thing is they also get a lot of viewers just cause people see they are the """top""" streamer, so without this embedding stuff, they would have even less viewers.
What does it being a job have to do with it inflating viewer numbers? Those users aren't actually watching the stream, so it adds fake numbers to the stream.
So what’s stopping you from making a bot twitch account with a bunch of bot followers just making you a steady stream of money every month? If you see it is fair, and OK, why don’t you do it?
The only way to even become affiliated on twitch playing guild wars two is to fake the number of your viewers. It would make twitch change their policy on embedding if every single guild wars two streamer started embedding… make 1 million fake viewers and permanently keep guild wars two on the top of every game list no matter what until twitch changes it.
Where do you think all of the viewers from other games come from? Do you honestly think that all of the viewers from other MMO's and shooter games are all real viewers on twitch? So when you see a game has 30k viewers because the big players are embedding vs another game that has 5k viewers because they're not embedding, who do you think people browsing twitch are going to check out??
that is ABSOLUTLY not true, many people have gotten partner without doing this. Chomp just got it after a few months of streaming because they are entretaining. I FUNDEMENTALY do not like embedding so I would hate that to be the solution and would rather communities to self moderate until twitch stops being cringe. But if thats what happens it is what it is.
@@GodSenpiIf you don’t see it as a problem, then why don’t you create 10 different twitch accounts, and embed 500 viewers per twitch account and make yourself a steady stream of money every month, it’s no big deal right?
Embedding has been going on for years. It's not a new thing. Many of the people you see at the top of gaming categories get 50% or more of their viewers from embedded videos on their sites. Not embedding when others ARE embedding puts you lower in the viewership and puts the game in lower viewership to other games that have embedded videos leading to less exposure for the game. So I COULD argue that not embedding in one game (which makes it look like the game has low veiwership) while other games are embedding (inflating their numbers and drawing more viewers to their game) hurts the game that gets less exposure because it looks like the game has less interest in it. (Why check out a game that has less interest by less viewership than a game that twitch shows higher viewers).
@@jrafel1707 honestly, based we should get every gw2 website to put every gw2 streamer as embed that way everyone no matter who you are if you stream gw2 you get blasted and we become number 1 category 😎😎😮
@@darensgw2 Twitch is ONE of the most effective ways to draw people to a game. If a game is high in interest as shown by the number of viewers, people will check out what's going on in the game and watch some streams. NOT having as many people with websites to embed videos and inflate numbers actually hurts GW2 compared to other MMO's IMO
Update:
Here is the clip of vallun confirming how many viewers he gets from embedding
www.twitch.tv/rozemmo/clip/ProudNiceCucumberTwitchRaid-58IjOf8eZZ5jX52P
Here is mukluks response if you guys wanna read it! I will be going through this and answering him tomorrow as its 3 am here and sadly his comment got flagged for some reason when he posted this here! (the thread got locked for some reason Despairge)
www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/s/WIz5OoLlCe
why is the post locked?
@@darensgw2 after reading and watching his response I at least believe his intentions are good. You could argue that it's still immoral, but as he points out it gives a very small boost. At least on his own website the embed is right at the top and very obvious and if people are on his website there's a high chance they'd be interested in the stream anyway. The fact that the embed is right down the bottom of the page on Guildjen (meaning that most people visiting the page aren't even aware it's there) kinda sucks, but that's not up to Muk. If Guildjen were to move the embeds up top somewhere I think I would have no problem with it to be honest.
@@3renegade3 did you not see the numbers? Its not a small boost. its over 100 fake viewers consistently. In a lot of the cases, its the majority of the viewers. I mean, the numbers were literally right there on the screen. You must be trolling
@@BittahDemon a bit more than I initially thought. The embed on his own sight is prominent and valid and the numbers from that one are quite small, but the GuildJen embed is a bit problematic especially in light of the new guidelines Darens highlighted in his next video.
@@BittahDemonis it true that, by the devs own admission, an unreliable web tool was used to get these stats?
This is the most irrelevant drama I have ever seen on this platform.
I'm unsubscribing. This shit is crazy...
Which is worse, autoplay embedding on a relevant website or harassing other youtubers and farming views with drama videos?
autoplay embedding. full stop. drama is content and content is good. giving random shytters money i don't care about.
@@yveshalimi5984 wait til you learn about much more evil and malicious practices done in the real world by real companies.
@@yveshalimi5984 A whole one person liked your comment, good job.
@@FerDeLira someone's getting angryyyy. why? xD
@@yveshalimi5984 do you actually think that if i disagree with you it means im angry? I just know you are clearly wrong and said so.
I'm gona be real Darens, I don't agree with this take. Just gona address it point by point.
1) Yes, a embed stream does use bandwidth, but if I'm really concerned about it, I'll just close my browser, and if I NEED the site that bad, then I'll just load it on my phone, which most people who have a PC, would also have.
Also, I don't think people are purposely hiding their embeds on sites. I think that's just how it's oriented most of the time. Top of the site is almost always reserved for the banner/logo of the site, and the sides are usually there for either site browsing or actual ads from brands/stores. Bottom isn't very intrusive, but you might still get seen legitimately by a viewer. I also personally like seeing streamers (yes playing in the background) as opposed to random Gosha Game #754 or products I don't even care about.
2) That's not a problem with embeds, that's a problem with Twitch and similar content creation/consumer sites. Popular things get more attention and more money. that's just is how it is, that's not unique to embeds. Anyone with some marketing knowledge can tell you that. If you want smaller content creators to get attention, then you have to look for it, or they have to really stand out, it's that simple.
3) No, we have not established that it's a negative for everyone, just that it's your opinion that it is. When you go to a store, and you see that there are signs for XYZ brand, or a ad playing at the kiosk, or someone comes up to you and offers a sample of their product, do you complain that they are taking up your time? That they are being purposely malicious? Or inflating their sales unfairly? It is business, and they need to feed themselves, and their family.
Content creators forming partnerships and collaborating is not malicious nor bad practice. So embeds on sites, where both parties are consensually agreeing to the arrangement is perfectly fine, and even good for the community, as it fosters bonds.
At 9:47, if you're suggesting that someone going into another game, and overtaking the other streamers is bad, then I'd beg to differ. It's commonly referred to as cross-promotion, and is a common strategy used by companies, organizations, and the like for mutually promoting their products/services. In the case where streamers with embeds are going to other games, this only servers to bring their audience over to other game, which ultimately helps it. In exchange they get to dip into that games audience as well. It's a win-win situation for them. And if your argument is that it's bad for the viewer, I also disagree. That is not a objective claim to make, it is a subjective one. Personally I enjoyed seeing Vallun explore FFXIV despite the fact that I prefer GW2, and I wouldn't have seen it, had it not been for a embed.
Look, I was a content creator too, granted I am not big, and I haven't done it in a while. That said, I don't mind people who invest in advertising their channels, content, or services. That's just how it works. They should be rewarded for putting forth that effort. It's not their fault that I am not performing at their level. And so it IS fair
13:30 and I have not ONCE clicked on any of those streams. Why? Cause it's not trying to grab my attention. It's just words and a tiny snapshot of what may be happening on stream. Stop shaming people for ppushing their products or services, cause then all you're doing is encouraging the market/community to stagnate.
... Drops are fine. That's a weird take ngl. Also while some of the viewers might be "fake" as you put it, there are many that are real, and some of them come either because of the drops themselves, OR they are attracted by the amount of viewers and want to see what all the fuss is about.
4) 21:46 You can choose to watch it just as much as you can choose to not watch it. Just press the pause button, I do it all the time on Monster Hunter wikis. And if it's hidden that's fine, cause I really only care if it's getting in the way of my reason for being on the site in the first place.
The real cringe is not the embeds, but the fact that content creators are actively blasting other content creators just for doing their own thing. I'm relatively new to this drama, but I will be looking into all parties take on this and see if maybe there are some valid points that may lead credence to this drama. We'll see.
I know next to nothing about streaming and how views work when it comes to twitch, but this feels like the biggest non-issue.
Sorry unsubscribed. dont want these dramas
Totally. What a ssshmuck darens. Bye
Unsubs, sorry mate I'd rather watch real game content than this, plus you could have approached it in a far better way so guess we all learn new things every day
His target streamer (muk) replied:
"[Embedding] abides by all of twitches terms of service.
It generates zero ad revenue, as all embeds do.
My sponsors see my stats WITHOUT the extra views.
I'll send her (Guildjen, the other cc that is embedding muk's twitch) a message and see if she would be interested in having it show higher up on the page, like it does on my sites main page, as I find that valid feedback."
This is all just pointless drama. Btw, people with the real malicious intentions are using this vid to attack the streamers you mentioned. Good job darens. Keep going for that arenanet partnership so you also get a taste of what its like.
This is the biggest non-issue I have ever seen dramatised for clout.
I will no longer participate in anything that has your involvement. You created a mob mentality and harrassed someone over this? Do better.
Are you ok, Darens?
This is a nothing burger. Come on man, be better.
To be fair this seems to me like a youtube/twitch problem they should seperate on website, app and embedded watches. So sponsors could ask to see all that data feel like that would pretty quickly shut down this exploit since it would be a bad look to have such inflated artificial views. I personally don't care at all about the bandwidth but that is cause i don't have data limits and having lived in countries with data limits i can see how scummy that is as extra data packages are usually crazily priced.
First off, I agree with your first point of embeds not auto-playing and not being hidden. But, your second point of bad streamers hogging viewers is just ridiculous....if it's a bad streamer, nobody will stay. Good streamers rise to the top. People don't just look at numbers and ignore that they are a poor streamer. As for your metrics calculator...wouldn't Vallun and Mukluk have the exact same numbers of "fake" viewers? Muk's website has the stream paused so I doubt many people have it active. I feel like the metrics calculator isn't quite legit.
You had a bunch of false information and refused to let the guy have his 2 cents I think you need to just shut up and stop spreading drama
Isn't this jealousy?? But either way I really do not care. I will still be watching your videos as well as Vallun and Mukluk's.
condolences for watching a guy named vallun that calls ppl pdf's, tells them to off themselves, and calls them cloutchasers when he dies in pvp
not my choice of streamer, that's for sure.
I think it’s fine as long as content creators are transparent about it. Using the website or watching twitch is free after all. But a website should make it easily visible to the viewer that there is an embed active, especially if it’s on autoplay.
They auto play at the very bottom of the website. It’s scummy at least. It’s possible for you to not even know you count as a viewer.
I don't think Mukluk is being malicious when he embeds his own livestream on his own website. Its the equivalent of plugging your socials at the end of a UA-cam video tbh. I think the GuildJen situation is pretty insidious due to how its displayed. I've had a WvW build opened for HOURS while zerging, so this is pretty rough to hear.
What Fextralife did was incredibly cringe and malicious due to how large their umbrella of content was since they run a ton of game wikis and forums. I don't think creators embedding on their brand-sites is on the same level. Maybe I don't understand the bigger picture here, and I'm willing to be proven wrong, but this feels kinda nothingburger to me
But Vallun can go suck rocks lol
@@guys-b3in-dudes embedding on their own site i dont mind as long as it isnt hidden, but muk and others also have their streams hidden on guildjen which is more of a problem
@@ThyWeepingWillow Go check out Muks response if it's that big of a problem
If it were equivalent to plugging one's socials at the end of a UA-cam video, why wouldn't Mukluk simply have his Twitch channel link plugged on GuildJen rather than have the livestream embedded?
@FrivolousFrog-r5h My socials link comment was directly in reference to his embedded player on his website. But technically speaking, any embedded link is a literal link to whatever the widget is. If it's a UA-cam video or a livestream, both act as a link back to a social platform.
I also wanna reiterate that I don't condone how GuildJen worked the streams onto the site. I went so far as to call it "insidious" in my original comment
For the case as to WHY an embed over a hyperlink, I couldn't say. Some people like embedded widgets and how seamlessly they fit/look. There's a good case for UA-cam videos as you can just stay within the web page and navigate the rest of its contents while the video plays. I don't personally know as to why you'd do a livestream embed over a hyperlink. Obviously, you could cite the Fextralife incident and say it's malicious, but I don't think it's that simple here. Like I've mentioned before, the livestream embed was on his website long before GuildJen's, and no one seemed to really care until we saw how scummy Jen's did it.
@Snowshill Well, the problem is the way that GuildJen implemented the streams, hidden at the very bottom of the page on autoplay. But I do need to emphasize that Muk doesn't have control over how GuildJen designs her own website. He COULD have maybe done some more due diligence on the subject, but I think this might be a huge case of him trusting a co-collaborator more than he should have.
That said, I think it is VERY WEIRD to have someone embed his livestream on a platform he has no control over, and a passing referral of "Go here for this guide I used"
Gonna give a bit of a yikes on that one
Looks like they are do not autoplay if you disable autoplay in the browser.
For some reason it is not showing for me, but if that exists thats awesome!
@@Junko_Zane yep but then again you have to set it on your browser manually and most people just leave that default
The only thing you accomplished with this is to guarantee I unsub and won't watch any more of your content regardless of how valuable it's been to me in the past.
Your issue with embedding is fine, the incredibly irresponsible way you went about expressing it is not.
Well, why didn't you communicate with them Daren's? Especially muk has always been polite and cool. You seem to avoid it
I have always been available to talk and communicated this to everyone, he has said he didn't want to talk to me before so I respected that.
I talked to him today because vallun revealed the embeds gave around 100-300 viewers so he would know cause he probably didn't and we talked with no problems.
Didn't notice that about the Guild Jen website they embedded the streams at the very bottom of the page lmao so easy to be looked over. Also that website is super slow loading its horrendous honestly.
Yeah its been obvious on Vallun’s stream for years, 600-800 viewers with completely dead chat
It'll always be funny to be when you see this side of the community.
The Darens becoming a drama shitlord arc is something to see.
He supports Nike. He's already a Drama shitlord.
What's crazy is you're bagging on the more popular gw2 creators that YOU have learned from and stolen their video structures.. yet you choose to hate on them.
lol I did not inspire myself upon this creators, they are good but they are not what I like for me personally.
Mukluk is mainly about well scripted videos and memes, vallun about build guides.
I do NOTHING of these things, if anything I got inspired by teapot and asmongold to make videos like them specifically.
You can keep coping that this is jelousy but this is only because you know im right about all of this.
So what. People want to earn a living. Get over it.
Apparently, they are not allowed to help each other out, if they do, it's "shady", give me a break.
Fextralife banned me from their Twitch years ago for simply asking if they were affiliated with the charity Extra Life. Surprise, NOPE! Just took the gamer charity name and slapped a letter in front... 🤣🤣🤣
yeah the bandwidth thing is crazy, ive always had to close all my guide pages if im going into pvp 😭😭
While I agree that some kinds of embedding is bad (fully hidden page elements or placed in the obscure way to not get noticed) I think embedding like Mukluk did on his page (top of it) is alright.
Although his % coming from embeds is insane.
To be 100% clear, that page is generating almost no viewers, all of the viewers are coming from guildjen which has extremely unethical embedding.
his streams wr also embedded on guildjenn, at the bottom. i think he is generally a nice person but i am not a fan of this behaviour at all
Thanks for the very informative video! Subscribed!
all these comments saying its fine to do that lmao XD. if Hardstuck,SC,Metabattle starts doing it its joever for every new streamer there is no way u can compete without getting partnered with these sites. so yeah its a problem but biggest issue is twitch they should keep embed but shouldn't count embed viewers as viewers
I'm sure the Overwatch League had hugely inflated viewership due to Twitch drops, one of the many factors that led to it's eventual demise despite all the money being thrown at it.
man that's crazy, i see it before but never really think much about it, i'll pay more attention from now on (not just gw2).
great video as always Darens. thanks for talking about this topic that some would not be willing to.
Honestly there isnt GW2 streamer is popular enough for this to matter in the case of viewer count, and also, you should never keep tabs open if you aren't actively using them. I feel like this is just trying to create drama and then to farm that drama. Just my opinion.
^^this guy is ok with stealing as long as you steal from small streamers
@@NikeonaBike it is not stealing bc you do not own the viewers
@@maickelvanee2540 its stealing opportunity. you dont need a physical item for something to be stealing.
Oh you got hurt by this comment nike? Why, cuz you do this yourself? Never seen someone hilarious and pathetic at the same time.
Gw2 content creators tearing each others throats. What a wonderful timeline it is.
Btw embedding or not, building twitch career on gw2 is lost cause and noone trying streaming seriously should waste their time on that game.
I would never understand people that see something objectively wrong and just comment ''Who cares'' or ''They need to make their money so it's ok''. Seen these types of comments under not only this vid but also the one breaking data on how black lion chests are a scam because Anet's straight up puts false drop chances on them. It's kinda sad.
It's actually very easy to understand... They agree, but they don't want to be seen agreeing with the wrong thing, so they go pretend neutral.
Integrity of the game is an excellent point, the community would have to evaluate whether the increase in "viewership" numbers is worth the loss in faith of not just the base community, but also exterior communities that are interested in the content. However, I don't think conflating Twitch drops and artificially increasing viewership is logical because there's transparency with the viewers and sponsors of the streamers participating in the drop events, and the aspect of decreasing returns to Twitch drops as viewers/players gradually devalue the items dropped over time.
Not good content for our community.. jealousy will get you nowhere just because they do a better job than you. Unsubscribed.
maan I remember when this happened in new world on NWDB which got insane traffic around launch haha
Hey thanks for bringing awareness! I didn't know anything about this.
Tbf I like twitch drops if done sparingly. If you are doing twitch drops every month then yea that would be bad, but once or twice a year (like how gw2 does it ) is fine imo
Crazy to see the comments, ppl a suddenly ok with embedding? I'm confusion
welcome to my life KEKW
@@darensgw2 new twitch meta:
1. Start embedding
2. Convince your audience "it's not that bad".
3. Smaller creator calls them out.
4. Got a bigger "pro embedding" audience then said creator.
5.??????
6. $$$$
My guy crying over 100 views or something. If anything, this is a twitch issue, not a Muk issue, specially since the guy already turned off the autoplay on mobile.
One thing is certain: Darens didn't /gg ingame himself💀💀💀
I embedded this video lmao haha
Oh my, Teapot, did you ask permission??
xddTree login Treeing
First, your community went after Mukluk because he doesn't make guide videos the way you think he should. Now you're going after him because he doesn't follow your rules on how he should operate on Twitch? I'm noticing a pattern.
@@theblackspark2644 yeah the pattern is Mukluk is an unsavory character. The weaboon guide video was digital terrorism on the community.
@@NikeDnTI find you far more unsavory than muk.
What happens when one of these embedded streamers raid someone?
Do they inherit fake viewers or does the embedded stream just go offline? As a small streamer, this would suck to get flooded with inauthentic viewership
they do not no sadly, that still would be bad but I guess a bit less bad to the game community itself
@@darensgw2 Daren could you please clarify your reply here. Are you saying no, that the embedded stream doesn't go offline? So the person who is streaming, who gets raided by, for e.g. Muk, has their numbers artificially inflated as well?
@@stlawrenceriverrat the embed stream goes offline and the viewers DO NOT go to the raided streamer
Just going to add here too, I saw the reddit post, and Mukluk's response.
I hope that you were able to have a proper conversation with him. He seems pretty transparent(I watched his clip) about everything, and he really doesn't seem to want drama over something he isn't hiding.
The long term 'numbers boost' seems small compared to when he didn't embed on Guildjen's site. I would hope Mukluk considers asking GJ to make the embedding more visible, because the bandwidth thing definitely sucks for people who don't know. Or he just asks to be taken off the site.
In hindsight, it might have been better to reach out to him before making the video(just assuming you didn't because of what he said on reddit). That's just my opinion though. Can understand from a creator perspective, shoot first, questions later, gets more traction, but it can come at a cost to image and integrity.
You do you though! Still appreciate the education about embedding from this video :)
@@n1cemaiden879 I tried to respond to the reddit post but the thread got locked :((
I have seen MukLuks response to this and I wanna apologise to Mukluk for jumping to conclusions after just this video. He is one of the main pillars of this community, keeping it healthy making sure we have more content to look forward to.
So this seems like a lot of outrage over nothing hurting one of the nicest people in our community. Hoping you meant well, please consider the consequences this video has had and see if you can heal the situation. That’s my two cents anyways
Do Ad-Blockers remove these hidden/embedded videos?
You can use U-Block to rightclick & block the element. That should hide the embed (including sound) across any page on said domain. If you make a mistake or want to reenable it, just delete that entry from the blocklist. If it doesn't get removed, keep trying. Sometimes you need to delete multiple nested elements get the entire thing.
lmao i didn't even know guildjen exists, i only use snowcrows and metabattle
don't use her builds, they're all written by vallun ( a racist PoS ) and his builds aren't even good
Storm in a teacup tbh.
if you wanna quickly multiply something by 33% you can just x0.33. then you don't have to divide by 100
yeah I do know this I never do it LOL thanks though haha
Smart system, but you're a number off.
x0.33 is 33% of something, because you're multiplying by less than one amount of the base number. Adding 33% can be easily done by x1.33, since you still want to include the base number.
i always come to darens vids for math education
To be honest this sounds like a case of salt, Darren has streamed for years and has a huge youtube presence but his twitch presence is lacking. Sounds like he just wants more sponsorship and money, which is fair. Muk is one of the biggest content creators for gw2 so if he is receiving tons of sponsorships from anet I don't understand the problem that impacts the community. Vallun is very similiar. In my opinion he is the biggest pvp/wvw content creator speaking in terms of youtube and other media presence.
ya thats what most people iv seen say
they're only big cause they have their streams embedded.. or are you too blind to see that and just another fanboy of 2 racist streamers?
@@bl1tzcraft man the salt is real
@@neopolitaneagle212 so open fanboy of racists? tells me all I need to know about the type of person you are.
@@bl1tzcraft dam all that from my 5 words
Hmm, I see the problem. In a bit of a defence to Mukluk, I am quite sure when he is actually playing Guild Wars 2 his actual viewer ratio would be way more legit though. When he plays other games besides Guild Wars I don’t tune in and he is a good streamer and he does do a lot for the community. If he cuts out the embedding he will still have a lot credit left in the community
yeah he would still have a lot, thats why its so weird they do it haha
that being said he gets like 50-60% on gw2 usually way better than vallun for sure
he has good viewership, i dont think he needs the embedding, but doing it is scummy nonetheless as it still artificially ups it more
@@ThyWeepingWillow yeah I agree with you there, it doesn't flatter someone when they use such methods
I really enjoy both Mukluk and Vallun's content on UA-cam, but don't use Twitch much. Kinda disappointing to see them gaming the system like that tbh.
You should look into Vallun’s racist history of comments (same for guildjen)
@@thisiskitta I can't find much, where should I look?
Nah, if you own the website you should embed your stream.
Wait... why did Vallun get de-partnered? What did I miss?
Apparently he said very bad things in chat a few times.
This is news for me :O
He said the gamer word on stream.
Apparently, he was being harassed for months, which caused him to react emotionally.
@@theblackspark2644 emotionally with racist comments?
Didn't twitch do something about it after the FextraLife drama? Still scummy, was wondering why that guy and Muk get so many viewers no matter what they play
they did but it was specfiic to fextralife under my understanding
People in other games still embed as well, new world is probably the biggest in terms of embed the other mmos are pretty chill
worth mentioning Anet sponsored Fextralife to stream GW2 for a 5 figure sponsorship. Fextra literally stole 10s of thousands of dollars from EoD marketing budget. That affects us all directly.
@@NikeonaBike lol
Lmao. Highest I've seen the entire GW2 category viewership is 1.9k.
Is that addon something we can take as gospel though? I downloaded that extension to see what other streamer's stats were and Emi is at 18% whereas everyone else was 80%-150%
emi is in homepage thats why haha
it is not 100% accurate but its is VERY accurate anyone telling you otherwise is lying
You could have (and should have) contacted Mukluk first. I'll never subscribe to anyone that views manufacturing drama & outrage as a means of self-promotion. This isn't content this is just letting someone manipulate you into being their fall guy.
Funny enough you’re the one ending up looking like just a hatewatching drone here to defend your streamer.
@@thisiskitta I don't subscribe to Mukluk. I just believe in responsible conversation and dialogue between content creators before posting knee-jerk reaction videos. Making assumptions about other people's views & perspectives, without asking, is rude.
I appreciate you explaining the embedding issue. I hope that it helps people to make appropriate action to correct this for there streams . Honor & truth , use to mean something . I get making money . One bad apple & all. Jen & Vallun need to move to another game . Kicked out of the partner program for being racist & toxic. Anet won't do anything to them. They could have been good for the game. They choose to be toxic , racist, narcissistic & greedy. Thank you for this
L
Maybe you address it way too late, but given the topic, this is a long video and I'm not going to finish more than the half I've already watched. However, what you're ignoring is that these fake views might boost an undeserving stream and funnel in real (money providing) viewers who would otherwise watch someone else, but they also funnel viewers into the game itself by pumping up total viewer count. There are upsides to the boost that I didn't hear you mention.
the viewers often dont realize they are watching a stream. clear upside obviously.
Anything shady has ZERO UPSIDE if you have any morals.. which sadly 95% of gamers don't.
@@McPilch It has an upside for the health of the game. You can probably argue that somehow the inflated viewership will over all hurt something at some arbitrary scale, but specifically for the game, higher up twitch player count charts = more new players potentially coming to the game.
Props to you for bringing this topic up, I would even call this brave.
This is good info, thank you. Did not know guild gen embedded or that this was happening, or about the extension that lets you see - very cool. Wonder how many people who wvw keep guild gen open for builds and it actually affects their game, that would not be great. Also wonder what the stance of the companies who pay streamers to play their game for a few h is on this, given 70% of viewers are actually browsing a website for an unrelated game. Do they care or nah because their game is still on twitch with a larger view count.
So you make a video with half lies and won't actually speak with the people you accuse?
Oh we're trying to stand up for the little-guy streamers? That's cool. You know what doesn't help smaller streamers? A bigger name in the community making a 1 hour video and trash talking small/new streamers. So now we go after Mukluk, a generally PG dude who doesn't get themselves banned from partner programs for various racial slurs or general troll-asshattery. Sure. That makes sense, lets do this! Wow... the reach is real.. and getting another guy whos name isn't as muddy (yet) to make the video? Nike is good at playing people for sure.
Muk isn't Fextralife and ANYONE equating him to that is nonsense. Got a problem with GuildJen's site and the way it embeds? Go talk to her. There is no big conspiracy nor some insidious plot. The only thing I see is someone NOT confronting the streamers and going by someone elses' word because they haven't discovered their just a useful tool for the actual tool. Don't do this. You're using someone elses content to try and get drama views. And look its works in the very short term, but that legit makes it just as bad as the 'embedding' drama you're trying to stoke here.
In hindsight Muk should of just avoided GuildJen because there is too much baggage around her and Vallun. Teapot and his merry little boys tho definitely need to check themselves a bit too.
Try defending your streamer's conduct without bringing me up. see how it stands on its own.
Much respect, good video
ty for calling out this topic. i am def disappointed in the behaviours of them. and they arent streamers i dislike but bad faith acts are bad faith acts, and to me. even if its small scale, they still participate in it
Ty for letting us know that they are shady people!
This is the most based video I've ever seen.
What does this even mean?
An entire HOUR of content between this and Nike’s video?
What a Monday. 🎉
@@didoma73 basically spreading the truth
kim there’s people who are dying
15:00 Twitch *alone* would be _at fault_ here.
*Everyone* can embed their stuff and also *everyone* can install a browser extension that would block embed. I don't see the problem here, seriously. While it may help a streamer to be _more visible_ there isn't much other kickback from that. And also you're saying that everyone that has a low number of people in chat must have an embed or even fewbot? Did you know that there is ALOT of people watchting twitch (and also youtube) that don't have an account or choose (to prevent their recommendations to be changed) not to log in?
Sorry to say but in my view this video is unneccessary rant that triggered a s*itstorm over some people. That's a behavior that I personally dislike thus I'll unsubscribe and avoid your content from now on. Bye!
Daren is only one with balls lets be real here guys . Based !!
W Video
This ain't it, chief.
In my experience, outrage farmers are a much bigger problem in our community than Twitch embeds are. If you were serious about helping solve the thing you see as an issue you'd talk to people before making this video. Looks like you are not interested in solving things, which is disappointing.
Oh look, another negative comment from someone who didn't watch and listen to and understand the video.
E X P O S E D
The people commenting seem to have never actually really watched these channels. The chats are quite active and nobody is staying that long on a site for it to truly stick anyways. This isn't 2005 it is 2024, people get what they want then leave. Hell, many run ad blockers and won't even see it due to that.
Plus both especially Mukluk were getting these numbers before any embedding happened with stuff like GW2. You'd know this if you looked at his past streams.
You are stirring up drama just because it makes you look good. The hero riding in to shine light on something!
It is no different than a random ad on a site. They wouldn't have gotten it had they not been successful streamers.
And you just pulled random numbers to display. You have no real way of knowing the exact numbers. The ones you posted make it seem like a majority are embedded! Ha!
Just yeesh, you are not a hero. You are just stirring the pot for your own ends.
its still scummy behaviour. he has good viewership naturally why make it artificially higher? i like muk as a streamer but this is a low thing he is doing even if its small scale. and it did put a dent in him for me. i find it weird some are excusing bad faith acts.
valluns chat is dead as hell even with 300 "viewers" lol what are you smoking
@@NikeonaBikeI clearly stated Mukluks chat.
@@ThyWeepingWillowScummy behavior is banning the person you're attacking from even replying. Then bandwagoning with others on that person to the point of even insulting their looks.
cuh tegorys lol
First world problems. If it's not against Twitch TOS, you don't have any legs to stand on.
legal doesnt mean ethical
@@NikeDnTfair enough
The jealousy and misinformation being spread by you and Nike is embarrassing lol. Atleast I know never to take anything you say or post seriously. I love knowing who to avoid and you and Nike are definitely to avoid.
name one lie or misinfo
@@NikeonaBikeMuk can't even comment on your stuff from what I heard. So you don't even let him defend himself. That isn't very standup for someone who says they are telling the truth.
Sorry, unsubbing
Most of the content we get is nagging and yapping about Gw2 issues, how about you start making some exciting a entertaining content?
Not sure how I missed this as being 3 days ago... embedding shouldn't be allowed unless done like Hardstuck does. Sorry but Mukluk is and was fully aware of the issue the embedding does. As I stated to one of your latest video's about this, this is why I'm not a content creator. Too much drama and too much can go awry and not in your favor either. Great video, thank you for sharing.
BTW, Nike, clearly showed that even Muk was scrolling over the viewers with no explanation to the huge bump in views since the embedding. You, Nike and one other content creator has made a decision easy for me about a particular guild.
Sensationalist drama without any real understanding of how Twitch viewership actually works or whether the individuals accused of embedding are even aware their streams are being used in this fashion. Might as well be a 'reaction' stream, the outrage here is hypocritical at best. Are you reaching out to these streamers to make them aware you are monetizing their content? Or is the choice just to slander them without verifying their relationship with embedded sites? You've gotten ahead of yourself, maybe do some more research next time.
Who doesn't understand? Darens made quite clear he understands. And your idea that vallun and muk don't know they are even on her sight is laughable. These scam viewbots is mukluks compensation for her getting to use his content on her site. He is well aware the "service" she is providing.
so you just like to make shit up and bend over backwards for people cheating their viewcounts…
No, I am definitly willing to give Guild Jen the benefit of the doubt in this matter because I do not neccessary see a malicious intent here. For promotion purposes it's in fact a lot better to have the stream playing. I myself have discovered a few other content creators this way and I don't think would have ever clicked on some generic looking button. The idea to place the streams to the bottom might have been to make them appear less intrusive. If they just wanted to shamelessly farm fake views they would have actually hid the streams like other websites do. This looks to me like actual promotion.
Since the problem seems to be that twitch automatically starts playing the stream, no matter if it is in the focus or not.... It might be a good enough solution to simply move embedded streams to a well visible place on the website. This would reach interested people and others can just pause it or whatever.
this is crazy. she knows exactly what shes doing and she knows the benefits. all 3 of them are cheating, and they are well aware of it
Good call
good video
Funny how mukluk tried downplaying it and said that getting 10 extra viewers makes no difference lool
both those hacks are so boring to watch, good to see that those viewers were fake in the first place. The thing is they also get a lot of viewers just cause people see they are the """top""" streamer, so without this embedding stuff, they would have even less viewers.
Based Darens 😎😎😎
time to clean up the muk
I think is fair, after all making a website is a job
Yeah I have always thought folks making a big deal about this is weird.
What does it being a job have to do with it inflating viewer numbers? Those users aren't actually watching the stream, so it adds fake numbers to the stream.
So what’s stopping you from making a bot twitch account with a bunch of bot followers just making you a steady stream of money every month?
If you see it is fair, and OK, why don’t you do it?
« Cheating viewers is fair » makes no sense
Why is it fair to steal from me because you run a website?
Darens with the expose
So many babies in this games community man, ultimately embedding is bad for the category on twitch. If you embed you are a cheat no 2 ways about it.
W darens!
BIG expose
The only way to even become affiliated on twitch playing guild wars two is to fake the number of your viewers.
It would make twitch change their policy on embedding if every single guild wars two streamer started embedding… make 1 million fake viewers and permanently keep guild wars two on the top of every game list no matter what until twitch changes it.
Lmao time to do this shit i guess XD
Where do you think all of the viewers from other games come from? Do you honestly think that all of the viewers from other MMO's and shooter games are all real viewers on twitch? So when you see a game has 30k viewers because the big players are embedding vs another game that has 5k viewers because they're not embedding, who do you think people browsing twitch are going to check out??
that is ABSOLUTLY not true, many people have gotten partner without doing this.
Chomp just got it after a few months of streaming because they are entretaining.
I FUNDEMENTALY do not like embedding so I would hate that to be the solution and would rather communities to self moderate until twitch stops being cringe.
But if thats what happens it is what it is.
The streamers in question were both affiliates before they started this BS. Try again.
@@darensgw2this is work not charity..
Twitch profits, the streamer profits, the game profits.
Its not that hard to understand.
I'm disappointed by Mukluk, thought he was better than this.
Also, are you ok? You don't look too well.
He's doing it in his own website and is no hidding it from you
@@GodSenpi Mukluk isn't the issue, twitch is the issue.
Im good bro HAHA thanks :))
@@GodSenpiIf you don’t see it as a problem, then why don’t you create 10 different twitch accounts, and embed 500 viewers per twitch account and make yourself a steady stream of money every month, it’s no big deal right?
@@GodSenpi He's still doing what's essentially view botting.
Embedding has been going on for years. It's not a new thing. Many of the people you see at the top of gaming categories get 50% or more of their viewers from embedded videos on their sites. Not embedding when others ARE embedding puts you lower in the viewership and puts the game in lower viewership to other games that have embedded videos leading to less exposure for the game. So I COULD argue that not embedding in one game (which makes it look like the game has low veiwership) while other games are embedding (inflating their numbers and drawing more viewers to their game) hurts the game that gets less exposure because it looks like the game has less interest in it. (Why check out a game that has less interest by less viewership than a game that twitch shows higher viewers).
@@jrafel1707 honestly, based we should get every gw2 website to put every gw2 streamer as embed that way everyone no matter who you are if you stream gw2 you get blasted and we become number 1 category 😎😎😮
@@darensgw2 Twitch is ONE of the most effective ways to draw people to a game. If a game is high in interest as shown by the number of viewers, people will check out what's going on in the game and watch some streams. NOT having as many people with websites to embed videos and inflate numbers actually hurts GW2 compared to other MMO's IMO