Stocked Pistols: Great or Garbage?
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
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Stocked pistols: they have been around as long as pistols have been around, but are they really all that useful?
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love your long hair like mine
@@dillan.mclenaghanI'm catching up on him. :P
VP70 was a stocked burst fire pistol (unreliable), and the Beretta 93r too (nice stock on, burst fire horrific stock off).
Do a vid on the gflex bianary in a micro Roni 😊😊😊
application error
Almost 20 years ago, I was involved in a team that was looking at improving the chances for an ejected pilot by figuring a better survival weapon option. At the time, we were really leaning towards something like a Glock 19 sized gun, with a shoulder stock and a suppressor. The idea being that the pistol could be worn on the survival vest (as sidearm are now), and the suppressor and a polymer frame stock could be strapped along the lower legs. Thus, the pilot would always have all three components on them. (Alternative proposal was a takedown SBR carbine conversion kit for the Glock (or whatever) with a integrally suppressed barrel and rifle type sights on the upper
This wasn't so 1LT Flyboy could play Rambo. The idea was, if he needed to take small game or take out one random troop, he could do so without giving away his position to everyone within a mile, and the stock would give him a little bit better hit probability, to give him a chance out to about 50m.
I'll note the USAF now uses modified take down M4 type rifles in the seat pack for pretty much the same thing, although I don't believe they issue a suppressor. The primary driver there was to give the pilot the chance to survive uncaptured for just a few more minutes by heading to a hilltop or similar and hold the enemy off at distance, to give the PJs more time to get to him.
Maybe dumb question but i somehow have imagination those ejections to be pretty violent and most likely cause problems for your back.
How likely it is to pilot actually survive on ground from day to week ?
Or im totally wrong about that ejection ?
@@Kesssuli you are right , normally is a super violent moment and hard for the bodies of the pilots , but there have been cases of pilots who have ejected without suffering great damage. I suppose it will depend a lot on each situation.
@@NikoMoraKamu But overally if options are to stay in flying bomb and most likely explode million
pieces when hitting ground i think there is very little to think which is more hazard to your healt.
Still good to know how things are prepated while hoping you will be mostly okay after bailing out.
Already knew those survival kits at ww2 pilot era and it was fascinating to hear modern take up.
Yeah for once military procurement was smart and just bought Cry Havoc takedown kits from the commercial market instead of spending millions of taxpayer money on developing something that probably won't even work in the end.
I think a cross between the folding stocked Beretta 92SBWS and the suppressed KAC XM9 would have been pretty useful as well. Especially for SERE situations.
They're better than pistols that are out of stock.
😄😀👏
Ya got me. Have my Like
Indeed.
Noice
So.... Flux Defense then 😅
Stocked pistols definitely were the predecessor to the Modern PCCs
I would disagree. Most PCCs, especially AR-based models, are short rifles rather than stocked pistols. About the only new-ish ones that are stocked pistols would be the ones that are chassis for pistols.
if we were having this discussion in some other languages than english, it would be different because the base word for what is a submachine gun is a pistol. uzi is therfore a kind of a pistol etc.
@@loquat44-40I’m not sure the M1 carbine qualifies as a pistol caliber carbine. It’s almost in a class by itself.
@@itsapittie more like if your going to put a stock on it and make it semi auto you should give it a bit more kick?
my cx4 storm really does just feel like a giant pistol sometimes
It all depends on the purpose that the stocked pistol was designed.
The "Broomhandle" Mauser was used to clear trenches and supposedly assisted in rapidly eliminating enemy as you came upon the enemy's trench.
For long range shooting...l think there was also some benefit. The 7.63x25mm round was pretty "hot" and could reach out to 100 meters...this is where the detachable stock shined.
I had a 1896 Mauser in original caliber and l purchased an excellent modern full holster/stock and it was a joy to shoot ( except for the occasional hammer pinch).
I have a WW2 Finnish contract Hi-power with an original stock (and holster) and it is remarkably easy and comfortable to use. Maybe an anomaly, I don’t know?
Daddy is a pistol, Momma is a rifle.
Unfortunately, the offspring acquired their bad qualities and very little of their best qualities. Having said that, historical stocked pistols make great collector's items.
My first thought when Ian commented on the ammo not being accurate enough past 100 yards: Isnt it possible that the group opens up so much at that range because the bullet drops below the speed of sound at that distance, and therefore gets hit by its own super sonic crack?
9mm, to my knowledge, is a super sonic cartridge in most cases, but its not a lot faster than sound, and its BC is probably pretty horrible. So it wouldnt take a long flight/distance to make the bullet go subsonic, and at that point, even very high quality ammo encounters problems...
@@Kinetic.44 huh, thank you, shows again that the first thing that pops into one's head doesnt have to be the correct one^^, much appreciated.
Hey Ian, I’ve been watching your videos forever. I’d really love it if you made a video on the AKS74U “Krinkov”. Love what you do!
When can we get a video on the Flint lock with a shoulder stock
So what you are saying is that all the difficulties have been over come. Today we could build a high capacity double stack pistol, with a reddot, and a glass reinforced polymer stock holster.
What about the pistol version of the Ruger carbine in 5.7 with a short right side folding stock where the stock would rest on the outside of the holster. You could almost fit it in a large drop holster. No slide reciprocating. Red dot. With the length of the receiver the stock could be short.
The NFA and it's consequences have been a disaster for the human race.
2:00 - rifled or smoothbore? Would it even be worth doing this with a smoothbore?
Why not just put a reinforcing plate in the stock if it is fragile?! I don't understand gunsmith resolutions to things. The same thing how I wonder how it took decades to cut notches into a dovetail rail to make the picatinny design. I have seen such insane, intricate designs in guns, but it seems that accessories were put together as fast and cheaply as possible most of the time.
ive always thought that the smith and wesson 647, while incredibly ugly, would probably look ok and perform well with a collapsible wire stock.
Most shooters (gun owners not real shooters) flinch, they flinch a lot. If you are a flincher, a shoulder stock will make the impossible, just possible.
The sights... of course, the rear sight must be at 45 cm from your face, so... there is no need to be a genius to note the problem.
I like the idea, but, since I don't live on a democracy it will be just one of the many things I would love to try.
Dam,right
Nevertheless, in the absence of the NFA I would still buy the hell out of a modern rendition of the Mauser/FN style holster/stock combo for a Glock, P320 ect.
See, my wrist is a bit sketchy, (amongst other joints) so I love stocked pistols over unstocked.
I bet you would be doing summersaults with a M&P FPC
I'm curious to know if you would include the pistol caliber pdw that uses a standard pistol in a composite chassis? The barrel and ammunition are the same but the sights are better and the position is more neutral. Any chance of a direct comparison against a target, please?
Putting a scope and shoulder stock on the Volcanic is still the most optimistic thing I've seen.
This is the gun a guy tried killing himself with, his family came home to find him swearing about the lump the ball left on his head.
Definitely 😂
*laughs in 1000 meter mark on Mosin nagant.*
The scopes at the time were very low magnification, pretty sure having 1000m ranging for iron sighted bolt guns is the pinnacle of military overestimation
There was a version of the arisaka type 99 with anti aircraft sights and I think that takes the cake for me
For a solid stretch of firearms history, the average pistol had a higher rate of fire than a long arm. That seems to be where stocked pistols pay off, better stability for close quarters rapid fire.
As opposed to the whole “carry like a pistol, shoot like a rifle” concept that never really worked.
when german storm troopers used stocked pistols for trench assaults, the alternatives were either stockless pistols, or bolt action rifles, were they not?
@@Ass_of_Amalek Or an MG-08/15 😆 I'll take the stocked pistol thank you. 😬
@@Ass_of_Amalek exactly. At least until the MP18, and even then they were rare.
@@Ass_of_AmalekLate in the war (from July '18), and in limited numbers (apparently ~17k produced during the war, not sure how many of those that reached units) there was the MP18.
thank you for your service
I remember when the possession of a C96 and shoulder stock was illegal. Then the BATFE decided it was okay. Suddenly all of those sellers who had C96’s without the matching stock, came up with the matching stock for them!🤣
"We lost them in a boating accident - but all of a sudden they bobbed to the surface"
@@AshleyPomeroy Turns out it wasn't in that car that caught fire, but was in grandpa's old steamer trunk.
Had dynamite in it. Who knew?
@@AshleyPomeroy yeah it's a good thing wood floats right?
law abiding gun owners- am i right?
I think a lot of people confuse something being cool with it being good.
"Look good doing it" has always been the first rule, probably dating back to Pharaohs... :)
@@ForgottenWeapons I bet chariot was invented to make shooting bow much cooler. "Yes, it has to be gilded, what kind of question is that?"
I agree their niche is very small but I still think they’re cool. Sometimes that’s enough reason to own one. If they weren’t NFA items, I’d have one.
@@itsapittie I mean, the coolness factor as the single reason for its existence is enough for many many sports cars, so i dont see why it shouldnt be enough for a stocked pistol :D
@@TheCouchCommando That & "...does it take Glock quivers?" 😆
I didn't know there were stocked flintlock pistols. SBR regulations DEFINITELY don't adhere to Bruen's standards. This would be huge in the pistol brace lawsuits.
I’ve shot quite a few stocked pistols with and without optics. I always say “it lets you shoot 50 yards very accurately”
Basically it extends your offhand shooting capabilities by about 15 yards.
That's very generous of you to assume most people can hit anything with a handgun at 35 yards.
@@herbderbler1585 lol. Not hit. Sorry im talking about tight Groups. Reaching the pistol’s ideal MOA of like 6-8” at 100yards. So like 3-4 inches at 50.
I totally get people can hit an IPSC sized target at those ranges.
It's pretty ridiculous that a C96 Mauser has tangent sights that adjust all the way out to 2,000 meters.
The problem with a stocked pistol is that people think the stock makes it not a pistol, ballistically speaking. It's still a pistol, just more stable. Because it doesn't magically change that, people think they suck. And in a way, for the bulk of the stock, they do. But it's a tool, an option, that you use when it's the right tool. They have a role- motorcycle cops, a pilot or tanker's bail out gun, that kind of thing. And then you've got the other side of it, the "forbidden fruit" theory. I'd rather have something with better sights where the bolt isn't rocketting back at my eyeball!
"If you put a stock on a pistol, it becomes a gun and you can shoot larger calibers."
-Biden
This luger would've been legal in ireland up until 2008, RIP.
One of my favorite memories as a kid, was Dad taking us
to 1976 Energy Exposition in Philadelphia.
The energy crisis was in high gear, gas had gone from
23 cents, to 86 cents a gallon, CRAZY!
So at the Expo, there's Mini RV's, and one was a VW Bug,
that could turn a full 360* underneath the towed camper.
My Dad asked the guy where he got the ideal for the tow rig and camper combo?
He said, he saw a 1918 Artillery Luger, and it all just clicked.
A couple of those VW Beetle fifth wheel trailers have been found. There are a few videos of them on UA-cam now. There was also a VW Beetle based camper called the Little Bugger.
A stocked pistol is perhaps a mediocre carbine but much better than no rifle at all. It does have its niche as a pilot's survival gun etc specialty applications.
Btw, the Soviet "Makarov" (PM) has a hidden stock potential, the grips are removed and there's a socket for a retention screw. Can be easily equipped with a wooden or 3D stock.
That last part sounds a lot like the Crosman 1322 "American Classic" air pistols. Unscrew the handgrips and screw on a shoulder stock. They're so common there is several sources for aftermarket stocks from side folders to mounts for AR style stocks.
I have one with the regular Crosman carbine stock but 3D printed rails for a reddot and light. Thought about getting a suppressor for it too since they're unregulated.
I think shooter preference is also a factor particularly when counting how long the concept has existed practically in history. I prefer to shoot a pistol, and when I want a stock, I want it.
The Mauser was popular because smgs didn't exist yet.
I think it's more because China didn't have much ability to develop their own weapons at that time. SMGs did exist in the 1920s and 30s but they would have needed to have come up with a simplified design to make local manufacture feasible.
It's hard to argue against a full auto pistol that fires 1000 rounds a minute.
Wasn't it also because of embargo on rifles if I remember correctly?
Any person killed by a pistol with a stock attached knows that a stocked pistol is not to be under estimated a second time! Too bad they cant can't give me the thumbs up now.
When I was young, in the late 70s, a complete artillery Luger rig, like the one offered, was sold at the Tulsa Gun Show for the princely price of $1,500! 😉
I was at a gun auction a couple months ago and they had two artillery Lugers and a C96. The Lugers went for $4k each and the C96 went for $5k.
I have a G34 build that has a brace/stock setup and the lessons I learned from that are worth sharing: Fixed red dot, not one on the slide. Forget iron sights. Use a fixed red dot. Seriously.
It's a 50-75 yard gun. You're not going to take it further with reasonable accuracy quickly, even with a g34 length barrel.
If you can accept these downsides, it's easy to have on a single point sling, it's easy to store in a backpack discreetly(which is my purpose for it) and it absolutely will give you more distance than typical pistol shooting which really is 20 yards and in for almost everyone.
It fits the idea of a small PDW, but doesn't fit the idea of a PCC/SMG/Carbine. It's just a bigger pistol. I will outshoot that G34 setup all day every day with better ammo with an m1 carbine with iron sights and that's just the reality. However, an M1 is a lot harder to fit into a north face backpack when I travel.
Why would you sling a pistol? Also why would you need a stock to hit with a pistol at 50 yards? If your shoving the gun into a bag anyway then why not use a PPC? Seems to me like you should have questioned your requirements before you chose to force a hand gun to be a carbine.
@@xXMrPocketsXx 50 yard shots accurately with a pistol is range stuff, not reality. Ideal conditions, not actual use. A braced pistol makes that far more viable and as for why I don't carry a carbine, put your rifle in a normal daily use backpack. Good luck. You will sacrifice a lot to do it. My PDW setup sacrifices nothing and that was the point. I'm just realistic about what it is and what it can do vs a rifle because it's not a rifle.
I have an EDC pistol that I can shoot well inside 20 yards and a pdw that let's me reach out further faster within realistic accuracy standards for 50-75 yards without issue. That's its entire purpose and it works well.
I am curious to know how do you think you would feel about MP7 if it was an option or TP9 compared to your current PDW setup?
@@dieyproductions4403 Brass Facts did a great TP9 video and was realistic about the drawbacks. Still, since mp7's are just not a thing here, I wouldn't mind a setup tp9 at all. It's the same idea honestly. The PM63 RAK & vz61 are historical examples. I have a vz61 as well. It's all PDW fodder.
@@Saltpork305 Before Brass Facts publishing that video, nearly review I saw on UA-cam for TP9 trashed it, I thought to myself how can no one get the value in this till Brass Facts video came out, glad that he did it. Hope someone makes an MP7 clone, cause we know that if HK would try to bring it, first it would some horribly disfigured version of it and second would cost a kidney to buy. I really like PM63 RAK!! Shame that none makes a reproduction of that one either, but I mean it is pretty similar to TP9 in functionality.
Compared to everything else, PDWs seem to be pretty rare and unknown unfortunately.
I think it depends on pistol but it also it seems like a thing mostly used during WW1 and maybe even WW2 before SMGs were a main thing but smgs are pretty much a better pistol with a stock and can be automatic. Also I see no point really for a stocked pistol because you want it to be easily concealable and also as an emergency weapon too, also you're not really gonna be shooting far with pistol mostly anyways.
I think that with today's technology, anyone that's open carrying a full-sized pistol could benefit from having a collapsible stock on their pistol (a sliding stock seems the best?)... As long as the pistol is still fully functional with the stock collapsed. Mostly police officers are what I'm thinking of. Sometimes, cops DO have to shoot at further ranges then a pistol would allow... But, don't have time to get a rifle. Sometimes, cops know they're going into a firefight, but again, don't have time to go get a rifle. Getting a small amount of extra accuracy and slightly extended effective range seems like a worthy tradeoff. It's not like cops are trying to conceal their weapon anyway. They're carrying a pistol because it's easy to holster, not because it's easy to conceal. And, there are holsters that can accommodate extendable/collapsible stocks for pistols.
"you're not really gonna be shooting far with a pistol mostly anyways."
Yes, but you've got the cause and effect backwards.
You won't be shooting far because you *can't* shoot very far with a pistol. But we don't get to decide the range where the S hits the fan. We don't get to choose the range where we come under attack.
A compact weapon makes sense for when you do not expect to be attacked, but it's also a possibility.
@@alexsawicki I guess so but when I meant concealable I meant like with holsters and or a way to have access to your gun easily because I feel with a stock it might be harder especially with a holster but I didn't know they did made holsters for pistols with stocks and idk how that would work.
I see it being welcome in a situation where someone has a handgun and carries it, but when gets home he does not need to conceal it, therefore, the stock serves as a simpler and cheaper alternative to another weapon, increasing the pratical rate of fire and accuracy at short range
@@gamerbg294 I guess you have a point there, I haven't really thought of that.
Yea, the small jump up to an SMG gets you a massive jump in fire power, so having the most iconic stocked pistols be from the era just before widespread SMG use makes sense.
I’ve always felt a folding carbine would be a better option than a stocked pistol
@@Kinetic.44 you can wear it on your back though
@@Kinetic.44 you cant wear a stocked pistol on your belt either lol
@@lordrevan7569 Scorpion disagree with you
@@lordrevan7569 A lot of the stocks are holsters. Sure you can't wear it fully assembled, but if you have any time to prepare you can put it on.
@@salvadorsempere1701 the Skorpion is a submachine gun not a pistol and also you cannot holster the Skorpion either unless you are comfortable holstering it without a magazine inserted or you have the original 10 round mags it came with which are not produced anymore. also the Skorpions wire stock is not a proper stock and does not disperse or stabilize recoil to the same effectiveness as the stocks this video is referring to (rifle/carbine stocks) - stocks that actually do what they are suppose to do and provide a 4th point of contact on the cheek
I think the modem ideas like the Flux chassis have a lot of merit, but it is highly situational.
That, and the Recover 20/20.
Ian’s omission of the U.N.C.L.E. P-38 with birdcage flash hider, silencer, Bushnell Phantom pistol scope and collapsible shoulder stock can only denote his devoting an entire upcoming episode to this iconic arms milestone evolution of the premier LEO of the 20th century
That combination of goodies actually exists, or did. I've a magazine article about it. It was capable of full auto fire. The suppressor, I believe the supressor would have worked but was too small to be really functional. Also, the barrel was baffled to permit blanks to function the firearm, which would preclude real ammo being used.
How about Vz-61 and PM-63 RAK?
Yes, they are sub machinegun, but have the size like a pistol.
We still have the Stechkin APS.
Just like the Luger Artillery was originally designed for artillery but used by Stormtroopers, there is a market for the second line military soldiers, and Special Forces that focus on close combat and stealth, they both need small repeating firearms that are easy to carry.
For the second line military soldiers, I think the real issue may be that short barreled rifles/carbines are less logistically and training cost to the military than Stocked Pistols.
But there is still a market for Special Forces that requires high firepower concealed carry weapons. (although not big)
IIRC the Vz-61 at least is usually classified as a machine pistol for the exact size reason. Though admittedly that distinction in definitions doesn't exist in all languages, any full auto gun firing pistol caliber ammo is called a "machine pistol" in Finnish for example. There's no such thing as "submachine gun".
I suppose they will not do great against modern armor. Even "AP" 9x39 for VSS looking bad today. Imaginate how bad pistol will do in that situation.
Besides, most paramilitary forces (police e.g.), if expected some shooting around, just tossing "concealed weapon" concept out of the window and bringing something that can shoot futher and punch through at least some armor. Or maybe it's just soviet-block era "police" that damaged my view into thinking that way because they carrying freaking AKS-74U for "intimidation".
I feel like your P320 is getting to be a reasonable take on the concept, but essentially you’re just looking at “a more portable PDW.” It feels so close - there’s got to be a combination of red dot, action, and caliber that would get you hits at 125 yards in something you can put in a hip holster and forget about.
Maybe something in 5.7x28? Most regular pistol bullets lack the ballistic coefficient for long-accuracy but 5.7 might do it.
a laugo alien in 10mm with a -red- green dot and a stock could be legendary 🤔
I'd argue that the ability to get on longer range targets more quickly & accurately was/is an advantage. Typical hunting rifles & old military rifles (pre AK47, AR's etc.) also had/have less capacity than many pistols are capable of. The Luger with its snail drum became a trench broom. The early carbines like it and the Broomhandle Mauser were used in this way. The newer designs also include AR and AK rifles cut down to pistols and up until recently offered pistol braces that many used as short stocks. These were hugely popular with red dots, scopes, prism optic scopes, etc. The closest many of us can get to the submachinegun is a pistol cal carbine with a short barrel and short stock which is basically a pistol with a stock.
Stocked pistols are just inefficient smgs. They dont use their length to ha a barrel as long as possible.
A stocked pistol like the USW with a properly designed duty holster that auto deployed the stock on the draw would be useful for law enforcement and maybe reduce the amount of mag dumping with low hit ratios.
The NFA hinders development of these things because if the common person can’t buy it, it’s harder to justify r&d and production. The NFA hinders sales to LE as well; more paperwork, more record keeping, individual officers can’t purchase, etc.
If red dot sights required a $200 transfer tax to own, they would accordingly be less advanced, larger, and not optimized like they are today.
Could it be that pistols with removable stocks are best suited for well to do civilans who travel a lot in high-risk rural areas going from urban area to urban area? Examples may be a business man traveling in the old West or in 20's and 30's China. This way they had a "carbine" to defend themselves against higway robbers etc., but in towns or cities they could put the stock in the luggage and carry the gun like a normal pistol.
Everything you said is why the USA developed the M1 Carbine with realistic accuracy at 100 yards and even 200 yds (not feet). I had one and loved it until the tragic boating accident when it was lost.
I love my M1 Carbine.
i had one and didnt love it..
had 2 actually.
didnt hate them..
they just werent as good as a true assault rifle.
and werent much better than a decent length barreled PCC or SMG ( depending on your budget)
i know IAN is in love with them. but i owned them when IAN was still figuring out if legos or lincoln logs were cooler
unlike Ian ive also served active duty in combat.. there is no weapon BESIDE a normal pistol id take an M1 carbine over..
Boat companies making a killing these days
Practicality and logic will never stand a chance against swag and cool.
I say they’re all bad. So if anyone has one you should send it to my house for disposal.
In Norway pistols are very restricted especially for hunting you can not hunt with a pistol because it has no stock but if you get a pistol with a permanetly attached stock you can use it for hunting
in germany they let you pretend that pistols are for hunting.
Lol can't have our Norwegian slaves getting uppity now! Especially when we're sending in the Muslim hordes into Scandinavia to replace them!
Like pistols in the UK...you can get a 1911 _if_ it has a longer barrel and some kind of stock (even if it's just a stiff bit of wire).
In Finland it is illegal to hunt with pistol. Ending trapped animal is only exception in that rule.
And if you attach stock on your existing pistol it had to be remavable whitout tools or
risk getting problems because modification which change weapon class.
for dummies: weapon class is pistol=Dont hunt with it.
Ak/AR for hunting is okay. Just remember use limited capacity mags which are regulated by hunting laws for
semi-automatics.
@@Kesssuli Mag size limit is pretty widespread for hunting. It's true in the U.S., for waterfowl (max 2-shell capacity). In Missouri, you have to use 10-round mags for rifles, when deer hunting.
I don't really give a crap about the tactical utility or the tradeoffs with open sights. With a physical disability stability is difficult. I want a lightweight shoulderable firearm in no more than a pistol cartridge's energy for mundane use at relatively short-range. Rifles are pretty much universally too heavy, the COG is further away which makes stability horrible, and they're more expensive if I had to buy it.
What toasts my buns is that everyone and their brother is clowning on the ATF to pretend that a rifle is a pistol so that they can put a stock that's not a stock on their pistol that's not a pistol because most of them pretend that they need it. I mean, by all rights they should be able to do whatever, but here I am with an actual disability and I want to put an actual stock on an actual pistol for basically the same reason, but clown world says "no no! you're pretending wrong". F me for being honest about it, right?
Either way, the world militaries of 1920 don't need them anymore, so if stocked pistols suck, I'd like an unburdened consumer market to prove it. I also want a lot of other wild impossible things.
So, you are saying that ban in the US is just as nonsensical as it sounds?
I have a few multitools, including a proper Victorinox "Swiss army knife". I _love_ that Victorinox, because it lets me have the basic functions of several different tools in a tiny package.
It will never perform any of those functions as well as a "real" tool, and I'd be stupid to expect it to. But if I just quickly need to tighten a screw, or cut open a cardboard box, it will serve me a lot better than a good screwdriver or boxcutter that I left back home in the toolbox.
These pistols are an excellent example of the same thing. They are likely to be more accurate than the same pistol without a stock, and easier to carry than an actual rifle carbine.
As Ian points out in this video, those traits are a lot less useful to most firearms users than a multitool is to the average person with a sudden need for a cork screw.
Nice smoking jacket!
Seems like the concept reached its zenith of use in China during the warlord period when they used them as semiauto carbines and also sub machine guns with the schnellfeuer and various Spanish copies. It was just one of those perfect alignment of the planets and stars situations that gave brief rise to such a thing. Personally I think the 7,63x25 cartridge was the best for the concept as well, but has its own drawbacks too.
Personally, I believe stocked pistols can be both useful and challenging depending on the situation and the shooter's preference.
Would you call these the grandfathers of the modern PDW concept? Seems like they may not have been big in their day but look at the Flux Raider and Micro Roni getting more popular as the stocks get stronger.
I love them but my opinion on the matter in a military context is they were great when they were relevant which was really WW1 because a stocked C96 or Luger P.08 was so much better when going over the top to raid a trench then even a Kar 98az. Once the mp18 came out they were immediately obsolescent. I don’t think they are relevant today either, because of submachine guns and guns like the AKs-74u and Mk18 (I think thats the designation lol) that have a more powerful cartridge and short profile.
OTOH, most people can't get a true submachine gun, only a semi-auto clone.
Comparing a semi-auto "SMG" to a stocked pistol, the "SMG" has a little better ergonomics, while the stocked pistol is a little smaller and lighter.
yea except this isnt a new season of COD and real people dont have access to submachine guns and short barrelled assault rifles. pistols however..
@@cymond Apologies for not being clear I was referring to them in a military context. For a civilian I can see some positive attributes for them so you are correct. This is just my opinion but I still think sbr’s are better (other then having to register them). 9mm will actually go through more then a 5.56 or 5.45 will due to bullet mass. While not as compact as a stocked pistol, you have a more stable platform and better cartridge. I do understand that you cannot always carry or even have a sbr style of rifle in all places so until that verdict is overturned as I hope it will be. I can still understand the merits of a stocked pistol in civilian hands. As for civilian smg’s I’m personally not a fan as you probably guessed I’m more of a AKs74u style type of guy so I prefer them over even civilian smg’s
@@ripvanwinkle2002 no need to be that way. As I told the other commenter I apologize for not being clear and that I was referring to them in a specifically military context. However I still stand by my opinion that sbr’s even civilian sbr’s such as Aks74u or mk18 are better then stocked pistols (as you have a more stable platform and better round in terms of a home defense situation) both of which you have to register. I do understand the point that you cannot always carry a sbr type rifle around and for the modern civilian market a stocked pistol does have its merits.
They’re great.
Chassis systems are a joke.
Just make a holster that functions as a brace/stock/chassis today.
Extending on your argument: aren't pistols as a whole useless in a military context? The German stormtrooper and Chinese warlord examples were both the result of niches that weren't filled by anything else (such as the submachine gun). Pistols as a rule in military use usually don't have any other requirement beyond just... being there.
Pistols are like a badge of rank for the officers. Especially the senior officers.
It would be interesting to see an accuracy comparison between an artillery luger and a luger carbine. The stock could be helpful on an actual machine pistol to aid in control
The last stocked pistol I can think of that had any "large scale" military issue was the Stechkin in the USSR. A 9x18 select fire child of the Fifties, the Makarov supplanted it. I suspect for all the reasons you mentioned.
Apparently the Spetznas and some pilots found use for them in Syria, with wireframe stocks and suppressors on specially threaded barrels.
Pro: you can shoot better
Con: the atf shoots your dog
its a hard choice
Ok, so I'm a Canadian who going to become a Gunsmith Regardless.
We do have workarounds to our Laws that are kinda neat sometimes (Coach guns is one of them)
So, ironically, Pistols are harder to get than Coach Guns because of the RPAL.
Anyway, I had lightbulb moment, Permanently Stocked Shotgun Revolver with 12-18 inch Barrel.
Was thinking it might be 3-5 shots depending on Gauge.
Might have Cross Caliber Porting Like the 410/45 Judge.
Brass Embellished Beads or Fiber Night Sights.
Maybe I got my head in the Clouds but if the Stock is Permanent then I think it "technically" isn't a Pistol and for Northwest Canada that's just what we want.
I think that the Vz 61 skorpion is one of the best attempts at a stocked pistol. Small enough not to be in the way with the folding wire stock and with plenty of firepower.
In theory, but the stock is extremely uncomfortable and I find it slips often. Something like the C96 is way more comfortable to shoot, and in the case of the C96 the sights are actually not bad
I grew up with a stocked air pistol....
Garbage? No, it’s just not practical. Why do many (most?) turn to a pistol? Generally as a sidearm, and likely most often concealed now. That Luger, and others like it, just can’t be an EDC. Personally, if I wanted an EDC upgrade, I’d ask for a mini-Uzi. At least then I could spit more lead down range in the same period of time.
Image...you are in the upstairs washroom of a house you've been ordered to hold. Your mate is downstairs with a Lee-Metford he smuggled out of Canada. Coming up the road directly at you is a full strength infantry battalion, bayonets fixed. And you? In lieu of reinforcements, your battalion Commandant has given you his own C96 with shoulder stock and a case of ammunition. What is about to happen is the Battle of Mount Street Bridge. The young carpenter turned Volunteer officer was Michael Malone. He held that house for 6 hours and reaked havoc on that first battalion and the one that followed it into the inferno followed with that C96 (a treasured relic in Ireland's National Museum). The C96, unloved elsewhere, has legendary status in Ireland's War of Independence. And the Artillery Luger? The much feared Dan Breen (after Michael Collins, the most wanted man in Ireland by the British) loved his so much its laying across his and his brides' lap in their wedding picture. And, ironically, his bride was Michael Malone's sister Brigid. Perhaps a Weapons of the Easter Rising/Irish War of Indepence episode might be in order?
The ideal form factor for a stocked pistol, in my mind, is a C96 in 9X25 Export with a non holster solid stock, to be given to trench raiders, indoor security or other armed close environment fighters, maybe to stagecoach drivers or early truck drivers. That'd maybe see some action in trenches and against bank robbers, but this is before the era of building to building fighting and the advent of covert special forces. And the second the M1 Carbine came to market, it would be rendered impractical and obsolescent.
I do not believe that the problem with 9mm accuracy at longer ranges is entirely because the ammo manufacturers aren't making accurate/consistent ammo out to longer ranges. There's also the big physics problem of crossing the supersonic/transonic/subsonic barrier. When transitioning between supersonic and subsonic, shockwaves in the air behave weirdly... Which can easily throw off the trajectory of any projectile. I'll admit I had to look it up, but: it looks like most 9mm ammo is crossing that line at between 25 yards and 100 yards. Very few loads of 9mm are still supersonic past 100 yards. And this is very dependent on the specific ammo. 9mm is barely supersonic to begin with. Of course, this transition will take place over a certain time... Explaining why some 9mm ammo might be consistent past 100 yards. That'd also change with a longer barreled gun as well. To compare, 5.56 is supersonic past 500 yards. Some .308 loads are supersonic past 1000 yards (though, that seems to be exception). That data seems to match up with the "effective range" of all 3 cartridges. I suspect that you'd see a similar trend with other cartridges as well: The transition point between supersonic and subsonic (plus a few yards) is roughly the effective range. Subsonic ammunition just has a lower effective range to begin with. Lower starting velocity means lower initial energy and a more pronounced "drop" of the bullet.
I've always thought a .356 mag pistol with a stock would be perfect for hunting. Depending on the area you live in, imagine a dense woods where 100yrds is the furthest you'd ever shoot, any hunting rifle is overkill, and I dont trust the average shooter to hunt at 75 yards with a regular pistol. The weights/sizes are so much lighter that packing in/out is laughably easier, and a pack of 20 30-06 rounds are bulky, whereas 20 rounds of 357 is one handful
I feel like the biggest downside of modern contexts (namely civilian) of these is the intent pistol caliber.
Concealment of a carbine, effectives of a pistol. It'd be nominally easier to hand a stocked pistol with a dot to someone (wife, friend, brother, etc) who may not have as much handgun experience and have them be a bit better with it, but at that point why not just get a little carbine breakdown?
Three points of contact are nice but for the effort, I'm not going to lug around a backpack or similar to conceal it just to get 9mm when i could use .300 blk, heavy 5.56, or even (and in my schizo use case train of thought) 7.62x39 in a broken down backpack pistol.
All that being said, I still think they're cool and I want one someday.
I think there's an argument to be made that the problems of prior eras on the subject need not apply to the modern era. The old stocks were fragile, sure, the old stocks were wood with an indefinite amount of weak points in the grain, but we have better materials now.
Something like a tweak on the VP70 comes to mind, where the stock is not just a stock and holster but also a fire selector. Instead of making it straight blowback use literally any lockup design, the Beretta locking block comes to mind due to the 93R, though the new S&W M&P 5.7 returning the idea of a rotating barrel also seems appropriate. I also know we're married to 9x19 for the foreseeable future, but such a design could easily benefit from a flatter shooting, higher velocity, and higher capacity cartridge like 5.7x28, or if we wanted a larger diameter 7.62x25, maybe even 30 super carry.
I choose to believe the stocked pistol is not dead, but dormant, waiting for another time to arise and find a suitable niche as a sidearm that actually provides a benefit.
What about their practicality as a full auto weapon. Obviously these are even more rare which kind of speaks for itself but the practicality of a stocked full auto or burst fire pistol compared to a stocked semi auto pistol has the potential to give an advantage to the user where a full sized submachine gun may not be as concealable. An obvious example would be the VP 70 which I know you dislike. There's also the Berretta M93 Raffica which I believe was used for a time by the Italian police and of course the various stocks available for the Glock G18C
Ian seems to equate military use with practical use. Civilian defensive firearms do not require anywhere near the effective range of military firearms.
I don’t care that I probably can’t make reliable hits beyond 125 yards with a Flux Raider. I have no reason to.
For home defense that's 5 times the longest sightline in my house. For defense in some kind of active shooter scenario, the alternative isn’t a rifle caliber carbine, its just a regular pistol.
Yes, if the size and weight of a rifle caliber carbine isn't a deal breaking problem, that’s generally going to be a better option. But that’s much heavier and much longer.
Is a stocked pistol more effective than an unstocked pistol? Absolutely. Is it smaller and lighter than a rifle? Absolutely. So there's value in having it in the toolbox.
Sometimes cool is all you want. If the NFA was repealed tomorrow, I would have a gunsmith make me an Artillery Model Ruger based on an old Standard Model Ruger .22 pistol, just for fun.
Old stocked pistols are garbage. Modern ones could be great.
I think if the weapons weren't regulated we would have better options making them all around more viable. Look at a modern AR platform vs the original M16. fundamentally still the same, but a lot has changed. You can get iron sights that will give you the sight picture you want when stocked, you can also put a red dot on most pistols. many of the brace/stock options for guns have ways to attach red dots that wont reciprocate and still stay pretty close to the size of a full size handgun.
Also, if a stock helps you make a shot 20 yards, it's better than not having it. If you need to take a shot at 120+ yards, you have come out of the range you want a handgun for(stocked or not). Pistols are intended for what 25 yards and in? so trying to stretch it out 5-6x what's its intended for and not getting great results isn't the most valid criticism
Sub machine pistols, like the MP9, are pretty close in size too, can be almost as concealable, come with stocks, and rails for red dots. Something like that is the next logical step in stocked pistols, and stuff like that has been being produced for the better part of 30 years or more.
@ForgottenWeapons I would be much more inclined to enter the contest if I didn't have to buy a mug. I have a mug (the 1903 one). I don't need, nor have the space for, another mug. I would rather pay that same price for a keychain than buy another mug. A cool gun that I would love to have and enter the contest, but.. I just can't buy another mug.
Take a look at a stocked Browning P35 full auto machine pistol. They are very fast and somewhat controllable.
Many of those early XXth century stocked pistols were also full auto capable. In that case, the stock is a necesity.
But the SMG made them obsolete, since their intended uses overlap. and SMGs tend to be better at all particular cases, being also simpler and more rugged. At least for military service.
Then different laws all around made the full-auto pistols (and other weapons) not available to the general populace.
In civilian use, maybe a bodyguard with a selective fire pistol, and a small stock in case full auto is needed for short range engagements (inside buildings, vehicles, etc), would be the appropiate scenario for it.
But very niche uses, nonetheless.
@ForgottenWeapons solid points. I remember having a conversation with a Korean War Veteran from our Battalion Association (2 RAR- Australian Army) after we got back from East Timor. The conversation came up because I told him Australian Infantry generally have very little training using pistols.
Which is true. Special Forces aka Commandos and SAS do extensive pistol training, however Regular Infantry do not.
He said much the same as you. There was a lot of close quarter combat at times in that war, and some small amounts of stocked pistols were used by certain soldiers. Machine gunners in general were issued pistols as backup (especially as the Chinese often overan positions temporarily), however that was generally the extent of it.
I don't know if the stocks were issued or otherwise acquired (he did say some American and British troops were issued them), however he said they "weren't much chop". That he would take an Owen Gun anytime for close quarters.
If a Digger from a war that didn't finish until 70 years ago was saying what you are saying now, I think time tells all that is needed.
Love your work mate. And great work with the Artillery Luger at the range👍
I wish someone would make a wire stock , folding or stationary that would fit into the gap of a Glock handgun on the bottom of the grip . To get around NFA laws the stock would be to short to shoulder but instead would come up and over the persons forearm similar but not exactly like the wire stock on the CZ Škorpion vz. 61 . This would aid in controlling recoil reducing muzzle flip but yet would be to short to be used as a shouldering stock as classified by ATF by common sense . But then again we are talking about the ATF and common sense seems to be lacking as a shoestring was at one time declared a machinegun .
The NFA is one of the most ridiculous laws ever enacted. I'm working on getting a Vis35 with the stock.
I really think the stocked pistol concept really only works in a civilian context. Specifically as a bagged hold out gun/emergency survival gun, or in security roles where having a rifle/carbine isn't feasible. The military has a tendency to push things well outside their box to the point where they become inferior to other options.
I belive that stocked pistols are pretty bad since smg existed for a few reasons. Now most soldiers who would get a stocked pistol are tank crews etc. All these would have been better served with a smg gun. They are of course not equipped with sights to make accurate shots even with stocks. I would also argue that pistols are more difficult to produce than a smg like the sten or grease gun. Smaller parts more complicated systems.
The Mauser broom handle is greatly improved with a stock attached do to is really high bore axis. The stock greatly improves the barrel whip.
Two things that don't make sense, a pistol with a monstrously large size caliber, and a pistol used at long ranges, because in both cases that's what rifles are for. As a man once said `A pistol is an emergency tool used to fight your way to your rifle'. Even if I were going to "bear country" I'd carry a large caliber rifle rather than a .44 magnum pistol because my fear of being eaten by a bear is greater than my fear of carrying the extra weight.
Would something like a Five seveN with a flux brace and red dot be more feasible? An intermediate-ish cartridge and a very minimalist yet strong stock i think could work
As military arms, I agree with Ian's analysis that stocked pistols have super niche uses, and in the modern era have been replaced by miniature carbines or smgs. However, I think that in a civilian context, the stocked pistol/pdw that can be holstered and easily concealed has a great deal of practical applications, especially with modern red dot optics. The reality for most people, even in disaster scenarios, is that a carbine draws way too much attention. A stocked pistol being able to be tucked under a shirt or in a small satchel makes a lot of sense if your goal is to be armed better than a handgun but not as conspicuous as a rifle
I think it makes a lot of sense for a pilots survival kit.
sounds like a description for fn's ps 90 - or p 90, if you're so inclined.
Stocked Glock 20 would be ideal.
Civilians should not often face a situation when they need to engage in 50m+ firefight.
And attaching a stock to your pistol tase a bit to long for most of self defense scenarios.
@@tsorevitch2409 He's referring to something like a Flux Raider being deployed from a bag for medium distances like 50-100 yard active-shooter scenario. Outside of Glock, there aren't really any modern pistols that offer a detachable stock like earlier pistols.
Stocked pistols are better pistols by far, but they aren't PCCs or carbines, and are barely even PDWs.
I think the next evoloution of the stocked pistol has become the carbine conversion kit, that turns your stock pistol into a carbine type firearm,with or without a 16 inch barrel,depending on your countries laws. It is an Israeli development mostly,as Israel has ,contray to pouplar belif,very strict gun laws regulating civillian possesion of rifles,so this is a concept of giving the average civillian a more accurate carbine like pistol I guess,that still is within a dual function capability and carrige.
Pistol stock as a brace for fully automatic fire? Sure.
Pistol stock as stability for long range shot? Just brace against whatever is around you and if you're in the open take a knee.
No mention of the H&K VP70 or the Stechkin? Sorry it is early and I haven't had coffee.
I can't imagine a soldier happily carrying that big ass wooden holster at his belt
In the mud of WWI, they might appreciate it though.
What an awful spam name for that contest company. Impossible to tell it apart. Never clicking that link.
having a shoulder stock does improve accuracy , it does not make the gun shoot like a high powered rifle .... I cannot fully grasp your argument that its not as good as people think it should be , ok I'm sure that is true in some cases .. wouldn' that depend on how good the person thought the improvement was gonna be in the first place ? ... the fact is that it does improve accuracy . so ..... hmmmm .
Ian had to keep it low key for a while, but this video is proof that he is still a total Bergman shill... Very disappointing. 😂👍
I think id rather have a stocked pistol VS a "carbine" that is literally a pistol action with a slightly longer barrel and the stock built on. Because at least then i can choose between having a pistol or a poor carbine VS just having a poor carbine.
Well if they're garbage, please send your garbage to me, I recycle and will keep that garbage out of the landfills.
Red dots may make stocked pistols workable but since they are NFA items that puts them out of reach of the vast majority of people.
Guns: can't be neatly organized into categories because they are a blend of fundamentaly the same thing. Also guns, don't smoothly transition from one to the other with modifications creating the categories that we assign them, because of it.
They’re great.
Chassis systems are a joke.
Just make a holster that functions as a brace/stock/chassis today.
I heard a us federal agent made prolific uss of a red 9 with a stock in some Spanish village almost 20 years ago.
if not for the NFA I'd definitely have some stuff along the lines of the FLUX Chassis or B&T USW. Not sure I'd have much use for the more traditional type of stocked pistol, though.
But if not for the NFA, something in the form of the MP7 is better in just about every way over a stocked pistol. The PDW is really the evolution of the old stocked pistol in many ways.