These Four Cards Just Got Banned in EDH | EDHREC Room | Commander | Magic: the Gathering
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- Опубліковано 23 вер 2024
- Dockside Extortionist, Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, and Nadu just bit the dust
Ban announcement here: magic.wizards....
Nadu, Bans, & Rule 0 video: • Nadu, Bans, and Rule 0...
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What makes the recent ban feel worse than it should, is the fact that Crypt and Lotus were banned seemingly without warning. Dockside has been on the RC's watch list for years and they've said as much. Nadu was a no brainer. But Crypt and Lotus, we've had no mention of them being looked at as problematic.
Wizards wouldn't have let those stand whiel they were pushing reprint sets
@@joshholmes1372 the Rac and wotc are two different things
The argument was that the game changed around Crypt and Lotus, i.e. the cards you can ramp out today with them are much stronger than the ones you could ramp out in 2015. That said, we get how it's frustrating to feel this came out of nowhere.
You could also have 8 mana pump up on mono green turn 3. But nobody seem to see it.
@@EDHRECast I totally agree that with the power creep of cards, what these cards were allowing you to do sooner and sooner was more impactful. Again, I feel like most people wouldn't be as divided on this if the RC had announced to the players over a year ago (per Jim's tweet) when they had told WoTC that they had been discussing Crypt and Lotus and were keeping an eye on them.
Funny how Nadu got changed to be "better in EDH" then got banned there and messed up modern for a while
A book could be written on the trainwreck that was Nadu from start to finish.
nadu was designed with commander in mind, and somehow got banned in every format including commander
@@Phoenix_9624 I'm not sure they had anything in mind other than "push, print, profit!" when they designed Nadu. There was no reason to rush it other than sell, and it was a clear mistake.
"cEDH should have their own RC" Ok, i agree. What do players that aren't cEDH players but certainly not casual do?
My tin foil hat theory is that these bans are due to the cEDH rules committee forming, and the RC was like “ah shucks we got to actually monitor the format now before they fire us”.
@@Lazydino59 haven't cedh rc died already?
What literally everyone misses is that all cedh players will move to the new casual format because they are about optimizing the current format and not about playing competitve 4 player
@@Lazydino59 Jim commented that these bans have been in the pipe for probably a year.
@@EDHRECast and that’s another issue, absolute radio silence on these cards suddenly being on the radar, where is the communication? I think the main issue with these bans, if you think there is one, is that people have been absolutely blindsided by it. The RC’s last announcement about dockside was (paraphrasing) ‘the card is only as good as the pod allows it to be, so we aren’t banning it rn’ and this decision reverses that logic on its head.
The main problem is the blind siding (jeweled lotus and crypt) the rules committee basically never mentioned these cards were even on ban watch or being scrutinized. Dockside was definitely mentioned multiple times in commander committee updates, and Nadu was a given. The other two were basically out of no where..
Being upset this seemed to come out of nowhere is totally understandable.
Mana Crypt is even worse because it shows the absence of scrutinizing, judging by the Sol Ring paragraph. 2/99? = OMG, casual commander is ruined! 1/99 fast mana? = the soul of the game...
@@EDHRECast For real. Being more transparent about being on a watch list would have given people two choices either the opportunity to think about offloading riskier cards or keep playing them knowing full well a ban could happen. I've definitely gotten rid of riskier cards in other formats specifically because Wizards mentioned they were watching them closely..
@@heliobarbosa3525 couldn't agree more, in all honesty though Sol ring being in precons is the main reason for not banning. Could open up Wizards to legal issues as precons are supposed to be playable out of the box..
@@heliobarbosa3525 100% because WotC knew and forced them to not ban Sol Ring.
Obligatory Edit: OR they knew banning Sol ring would bring WotC down on them.
I think the price of these cards was the only real component that kept circulation low (if you could even say it was low). However, if a player pulled a crypt from a pack it is almost assured they would jam it first thing in their favorite deck.
As a player base on average we just don’t have the restraint necessary to keep things off the ban list
Yep.
So what? That deck probably has a Sol Ring already. 1/99 versus 2/99 isn't a big deal in a casual deck.
Edit: if you had an expensive commander and your deck didn't depend on it. Run 2 cheap partners instead of needing lotus, the deck now has 98 cards, problem solved. Math is the same, but now you now 5 random people can nuke the value of their collection if they so choose and their decisions are arbitrary, considering they banned mana crypt and didn't ban sol ring.
2/99 isn’t the problem.
People coming to the LGS w/ decks that consistently contain the *entire* cEDH Fast Mana package and calling them 7s is.
The more you’ve got, the more often you draw a 2-fast-mana-minimum start.
I’m sure you regularly see the Land > Sol Ring > Arcane Signet start.
When those 2 + a Signet or 2 are the end of it, it’s pretty rare to see those 6-8 mana T2s.
Add Mana Crypt, Mox Diamond, and Mox Opal (The latter getting a lot harder to play T1 w/ less 0-1 cost rocks) to that, and it’s fairly probable one of those games will have a blowout start.
Against 3 Battlecruiser 6.5-7s.
The secondary market is extremely predatory on commander which is supposed to be a casual format. The fact that commander has such a sway on these collectors pieces has been too egregious and I hope this banning shows that cardboard shouldn't be this expensive.
Yes, it sucks to lose a bunch of money after buying these cards, but cards need to be reprinted more so that things like this don't happen. Things like masterpieces should be printed for the high money collectors items. But there should be a higher number of printings for actual play pieces.
It shows that it isn't worth to spend money in mtg since you can use proxies to play casually. I'm considering to sell 99% of my collection, I don't plan to stop playing
@@heliobarbosa3525 I doubt it shows anything like that, since people have and will still treat Magic cards as an investment portfolio. But I agree, don't let money stand between you and a fun mtg game, print them cards or hop on your preferred online sim
I have never once bought a card worrying about what the value will be later for resale.
Doing it the right way.
Here’s the thing, if they reprinted mana crypt into the dirt where it’s 5 dollars, that’s one thing. I’ve lost my value but I can still PLAY the card. I had 2 Docksides, a jeweled lotus and a mana crypt and now I’m out 400-500 dollars and can’t even play the cards…
You hit it on the head. People kept dumping them in lower power pods and played stupid. I feel bad for the collectors regarding value, but I am definitely over seeing them where they shouldn't have been.
(Dana here) My theory is that the fact that they kept getting reprinted made it easy for folks to just blind jam them into a deck where they weren't appropriate in a way you really can't with say Mox Diamond or Grim Monolith.
@dana, I'd be fine with banning those too tho - I'm still not pro RC but they regained my trust today
@@EDHRECast Correct, which is also what you're going to see when people start proxying more. There will be no limiting reagent and decks will become samey good stuff piles.
I agree. I've been against Jeweled Lotus since I played a game where someone decided to bring a deck worth more than the rest of the table combined and played a turn 1 Sol Ring and Greaves into a turn 2 Aclazotz. That sort of degeneracy doesn't belong in a casual pod where people are just there to have a beer and talk over a game.
1 - This is a GAME, not a retirement fund. I don't care one iota about people who are worried about the prices tanking.
2 - This is a welcome ban list, and I hope this encourages them to do MORE. This format needs to slow the hell down.
3 - This is also entirely dependent on the players...just because someone claiming to be the rules committee says this is so, it isn't official, and people don't have to adhere by it. Granted, that has always been the case, so nothing along those lines is really changing.
I do feel that the majority of people who paid the price of the ban were not the ones causing the issue. It’s is just unfortunate that to deal with the people who play these cards in a casual environment and say the deck is a “6-7” is by removing use of the cards for everyone
These cards can be used in casual without breaking it
Half of the people who pub stomped with these cards anyway had them proxied, this hurts invested players and not invested in terms of just money but time as well, I can’t imagine trading a ton of mid tier staples for a lotus or crypt as a newer or invested player and getting shit on by the rc
I have no problem with expensive cards being banned, what I have a problem with is that it's so unexpected. NOBODY was even close to expecting this, most of us didn't know an announcement was coming.
Yeah, that's valid.
I totally agree. Jake and Joel put it really well. The gameplay might be better but I find it very irresponsible for them to put 3 of these 4 cards as premium chase cards in ludicrously expensive boxes just to rug pull the people who paid for them
There's also talk of "insider trading" that the people who knew about the bans ahead of time dumping the cards.
@@travis_approved That's not really the RC's fault though. They can't control what and when WotC reprints stuff and where they put it.
I bet the RC sold their copies beforehand though. Total BS.
My humble opinion is this… there were three cards banned with combined value of close to $400 in their base printing that were all recently printed/reprinted. These cards were chase cards. These cards were printed with super unique treatments. These cards were pushed to sell packs. That’s the MAIN reason people are mad. People feel deceived. I’m not commenting on the rules committee because they literally have no bearing on what gets printed.
No one cared when hullbreacher was banned. It wasn’t expensive. If they would have banned sol ring…no one would have cared.
THat' s the problem. Stop thinking that your collection is always going to be worth something. Just buy to play. Value is a bonus.
Agreed. I own none of the banned cards. It doesn’t affect me… but I can see why people are mad.
Hullbreacher was the other chase from the og set if I remember correctly. Now both my pulls from that box banned 😅 is what it is.
@@Arctanis-vt3hl Funny, i bought a crypt to play last thursday and it came Monday night after the banning. So not only is the price nuked but i can't even play the card.
PROXY EVERYTHING. Everyone's new commander budget should be the cost of printer ink and an mpcfill order
I literally didnt realise until today that nadus ability triggers only twice PER CREATURE. HOW THE HELL DID ANYONE THAT THINK THAT WAS OKAY???
I don't have a link to who said what and where, but I believe it was said that the final iteration of Nadu wasn't play tested.
@@kaicrutcher1313 Its in this video at 6:38
@@kaicrutcher1313in the article talking about Nadu’s banning, the leader of MH3 literally said it wasn’t tested because it was a last second decision. Nadu was made for commander and originally let you play stuff with flash and the trigger only worked from opponents but it didn’t work and they changed the design
@@cleanaccount9991 It's not even that it didn't work, the feedback from the commander players they consulted with said that giving flash to all your permanents was too good... so they made it better and didn't test it. Dumbest shit ever.
The only real error in all of this is in wotc's part, they should have reprinted this cards more until they weren't worth more than 30$. Then nobody would have really cared about the financial hit that much.
Facts!
The issue with mass printing problematic cards is that having more of a bad thing makes the whole worse, and can stifle player interest when they can't find pods without Mana Crypt because WotC printed it down to $20. Sure it'd help when they DID get around to banning them, but the game might lose thousands of players due to how crappy the game was for the years it would take to 'fairly' tank Mana Crypt.
@@mightyone3737isn't sol ring an argument against this?
@@mightyone3737 I believe it would be preferable still instead of buying a 200$ card 2 days ago and get screwed
THey did it at purpose, thats the reason they were mythic.
Jeweled Lotus is probably the only one I'm not on board with. I get why, but it feels like a bit of an over correct. They probably could have waited to see how the mana crypt ban played out first before pulling the lotus.
But, that's just my uneducated opinion. So... *shrug*
No I definitely agree. Crypt is a problem in low-power pods due to it being permanent mana. JLO was simply a ritual for commanders only. And if a pod cannot handle a single ritual then the pod is made up of bad players that refuse to run interaction.
Nadi needed to be banned for the same reason Paradox Engine needed to be banned, it can be put into any deck that could play it and make every turn last 20 minutes but still not win the game.
Very much this.
That bird was just a plain mistake all the way around, simic NEEDS a much better identity than asshole turn management value train
So... every simic deck ever made ever.
There are loads of durdle, massive long turns and don't win commanders out there, but they didn't get banned, people just realised they are miserable to play against and didn't bring them to the pod unless the other people were up for the experience. Any Izzet storm commander can have exactly the same long turn (plus extra turns) that ends up being just as annoying to sit through
Jeweled Lotus gets stronger and stronger as WotC as started pushing 4-5 mana commanders over the 7 drops of 2011-2013. These new commanders are usually made to generate more and more card advantage and easily draw you cards to negate the disadvantage of running Lotus that can only cast your commander.
What bothers me is they waited so long to ban these cards, thousands of people bought them and are now getting hit with at least a 50% deflation in their value. If they were going to ban them they should have banned them years ago. Plus the fact that they acknowledged that they talked to wotc over a year in advance about the bands and they got reprinted within the last year and the cards had sales spikes right before the bans feels like a level of market manipulation.
I have a lot of respect and appreciation for this Channel when it comes to giving feedback on topics like this. Thank you EDHcast for being professional. It’s refreshing to hear. I hope to see more people discuss this topic and further topics with the same level headedness.
Happy to see the bans for casual commander, and the CRC's decision reinforces my belief that cEDH needs their own ban list (namely no bans whatsoever).
This could be the push to make that happen. It wouldn't surprise us.
Hey mate, have you played no ban list (NBL)? There have been some tourneys here and there. I don't think it would help cedh too much. Quite often somebody will go in, lose 3 matches before having a turn and get a bye. Aka not playing the whole night.
I agree, except I think CEDH still needs the following bans: lotus, moxen, time walk, recal, tinker, time vault, flash, karakas, and consiracy/dexterity/ante/sharazad.
Nope nope nope. You shuold not be happy. Engineering banns after massive reprints is a plaque for the game. Crc showed once again how untrustwhorty they are
Naa we had oathbreaker and like 2 people play that format.
My biggest issue is that for years they've been using the excuse of rule 0 to not ban them. To the point that this summer I finally felt comfortable enough to buy into a significant portion of a cEDH list, including the Jeweled Lotus. It feels like the RC pulled the rug out from under me. At this point I'm not going to get into the cEDH format and at least I can trade off the other cards, but that hit from the lotus hurts considering it's useless everywhere else.
I think the issue I have with this banning is not perse the cards that are being banned but the lack of forecast letting players know they are being looked at. I think how they handled dockside ban is fine (even though I love the card and own it) because they have been saying hey we are monitoring it versus the other expensive cards where they pull the rug essentially. Give players a warning you are watching those and that will help alleviate some pains of card prices dropping
Yeah, more communication is always a plus.
You wouldn't have been able to sell them either way. Who's going to buy a card that's being looked at for a ban.
@@Arctanis-vt3hlCorrect.
By, by, fast mana by,
Sailed my ship to the dockside but the extortionist died
And the good old boys with lotus and crypt all sighed, singing
This is the day fast mana died.
This might kill chase staples in upcoming sets. If there's a Anime Sheoldred, or a Gilded Foil Mana Vault in an upcoming collector box, it's going to be looked at with a lot more caution than before. It's way scarier to bling out your deck with alt variants than it is to just pick up a cheap base printing, and maybe proxy a fun art.
this is similar to my new fear--is my mana vault safe? I was going to pick up a Serra's Sanctum, but not now with this BS. Too scary.
@@derrickpaulson3093I honestly feel like it’s time for me to sell my collection, at least the expensive stuff, and just proxy everything. The stability we once knew is gone imo and given their reasoning for these cards, I expect more to follow suit such as rhystic study or bow masters, and I for one no longer feel comfortable taking that chance, even though I didn’t own these specific cards.
@@derrickpaulson3093if enough people reason like you, prices will drop enough for the gamble to be worth it
@@derrickpaulson3093 Unless you're playing at sanctioned events, just divest and replace with proxies. If you're just playing casual game it's really only about hanging out and playing. As long as you're not taking the proxying to an extreme to have all your decks operating as 10's across the board and oppressing everyones ability to just play magic there really isn't any issue.
To your point on cedh, it homogenizes the format way more. Not that expensive commanders were tearing up the tournaments lately but now expensive commanders are unvialble. Tivet, atraxa, etali, korvold, and kenrith are all dead decks now.
Tivith and Kenrith are alright, the other three are dead, same with Magda. Probably this will make Kinnan a top deck and Yuriko back to being top deck, basically this cemented Thassas demonic as top combos because the decks that run underworld breach usually do loops with the mana crypt and dockside. It is awful
I am definitely okay with all of these being banned. It sucks to lose the value of them in several of my decks, but as someone who normally plays at a higher level casual pod, we didn't really need these, and on the rare occasion that a less experienced player, or willfully lower powered deck joined our group it really feels like punching down if you play them, and feels like forced restriction if you won't play them in that game.
Ultimately, I don't think I've seen a better reason for cEDH and EDH to fully have their own formats/ban lists. Yes, obviously part of the appeal to EDH in general is that you can just bring a deck and play, but that was also 2013. Things HAVE changed since then and we have to accept that there *are* differing degrees of EDH play, worthy of having their own format.
Furthermore, even if we set EDH and cEDH as their own format, rule 0 fully allows us to play them interchangeably.
Plus I see it as this:
cEDH can become Legacy EDH with its own ban list. It caters to the competitive environment but you can still play casual or tier 2 and below decks if you want. Commander can stay as it’s own format, cut out all the cards people complain are too cEDH, and a new Competitive Commander (CC? CompCom? Compander? 😂) can be its own thing too once the dust settles. This will also help stores run more casual commander tournaments by the CRC capping the power level.
As someone who has only ever played cEDH, I sympathize with the negative experiences that casual players have with pubstompers and higher-power cards like these showing up at lower-power tables. I just think that it's unfortunate that cards which are staples in my side of the format, and are necessary for a number of decks to even compete or function (especially for decks that are outside of the top 5), are banned because of what boils down to poor Rule 0 communication. It's not like pubstompers have a shortage of powerful cards to bring to casual tables, so I'm not sure where we draw the line here.
Sure, I get the argument that EDH is fundamentally a casual format, but I don't see where the logic ends in this case. Mana vault, Sol Ring, Dark Ritual, Jeska's Will, Culling the Weak, Ancient Tomb, Gaea's Cradle, Smothering Tithe, and so many other cards are capable of generating a tremendous amount of mana early in the game. By the reasoning behind this ban, are those all going to be banned next? Why is this a matter of adjusting the entire format, when these are only problematic if there is an inadequate Rule 0 conversation?
I'm happy to see Nadu gone, and tbh I'd be interested to see what a post-Dockside format looks like (I play Sisay, so this would actually hurt me quite a bit), but the crypt and lotus bans are really sad to see. Lotus is necessary for higher cmc commanders to even have a chance to make an impact before the game ends. Crypt, and fast mana in general, are just as much part of the core identity of cEDH as Sol Ring is to Commander - the subreddit literally has a crypt as its picture - and in a meta-game where Orcish Bowmasters, Treasonous Ogre, Sylvan Library, K'rrik, Necropotence, & Bolas' Citadel are major threats, the crypt damage is actually quite significant. I've both lost & won tournament games because of a crypt flip in upkeep, or top decked a crypt to give me just enough mana to get back into the game after missing a few land drops, and those are exciting things that are just completely gone now.
Hopefully the cEDH community can finally stop cutting off its nose to spite its face and band together to make an RC of their own, or maybe WotC will get involved if the financial hit is enough for them to step in. For the record, I proxy almost everything and didn't own any of these cards, so my disagreement is strictly based on the gameplay repercussions. I want casual players to have awesome, fun game experiences with friends and strangers. I just find it super upsetting that they feel the need to do so by forcing us to either self-regulate, fracturing from the rest of the community, or just sigh and accept that our game preferences just don't have a home here anymore.
As a fellow cEDH player I could not agree more with your statement. These bannings have completely destroyed certain decks. Korvold, Niv Mizzet, etc are nigh unplayable at a tournament level now. I hope that going forward we can see more deck brewing, but in the mean time I need to adjust my decks. I think I will swap sticker goblin for dockside in Tymna / Rograkh. He can still work with cloudstone curio loops to make infinite mana.
I always REALLY appreciate how patiently and politely you guys rebuttal all of the seemingly overwhelming amounts of negativity online. A little reminder there is a silent majority of many people like myself who watch and enjoy your content everyday but don't often leave comments. Much love to the EDHREC crew!
I didn't see a "Sol Ring not banned" decent rebuttal yet. Also, they didn't address the lack of warning in the Crypt and Lotus bans.
Thanks much @patrouski
Nitpicking nerds put out a quick video, followed by a poll yesterday.
The comments read like the world is about to end.
The poll is about a 1/3rd to 2/3rds in favour of those bans.
Seems like the people who cry the loudest in this case are not the majority.
What’s stopping the RC from selling their copies before the ban announcement? If they did isn’t that market manipulation?
And who regulates that? 😂
Stop it
Nothing is stopping them from doing so and it's insider trading. It's very illegal if you can prove they did it.
speaking as a dockside player...
i have no issues with these bans they needed to go
I also think this is a warning shot to WoTC. I was thinking Mana Crypt caught a stray, but when you guys pointed out Wizards reprinted it to specifically create a chase card situation for commander players, I agree with it now.
We're in a unique position as commander players in that our governing body doesn't technically answer to the all powerful shareholders that force designers to push out these broken awful card designs in order to drive sales. If the trend is for WoTC to recklessly print messed up designs in order to push the dollar values up, I'm ok with the RC sniping those in order to tell them "it's our format not yours"
If WoTc wanted they could dissavow the recent rulings and put them in their place. You seen what they did to the judges especially if it messes with $ flow
WOTC could shut down the RC. It's their intellectual property.
@controlaltdeleteish exactly, if enough people decide they aren't going to buy packs/boxes for risk that the big chase cards will be banned hurting WOTC money flow. WOTC should take over.
@@controlaltdeleteishseeing as they reposted it on the official WoTC page, it seems like they don't particularly feel like putting anyone "in their place", except maybe those of you who've been taking these cards to the casual pods at your LGS.
@@ShadowspawnVIII'm confused, are you saying that if WoTC is producing so many overpowered cash-grab cards, which everyone acknowledges are op because they assume they'll be banned, that the solution for the health of the format is to remove the governing body doing the banning?
Does anyone else believe there was a good chunk of insider trading going on with this ban? Look at the sale history on various websites.
It’s definitely got something to do with it.
Yes
I’ve had a lot more miserable experiences with cards like rhystic study, mana tithe, and farewell than any game with mana crypt.
This, rystic and thide needs to go.
Some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing. As someone who plays commander mostly with strangers, I value having rules for magics largest and most popular format because that makes for better commander games. If you want to play these cards that were banned, discuss in your rule 0 conversations with your play group. I just hope this decision influences WotC design decisions moving forward - stop printing fast mana!
I understand you comment but my problem is the rule 0. If you are telling others to rule 0 to play the cards we want to play then why hasn't anyone else done the same fro the cards they don't want to play against? The question works both ways even if its a group of strangers playing together the conversation can still be had. It shows rule 0 is more so used now to reinforce an argument than actually what it's intended use was and that's to have a conversation and reinforce the format at the table.
@@Nvr2Busy imo it's much easier to go in with an expectation that something IS NOT allowed and asking for it to be allowed, then the other way around. If I bring a deck with an illegal card, I have an expectation that it won't be allowed and have a plan for if the play group is not ok with it. However if I walk into a group and they have banned a normally acceptable card, I need to unexpectedly have a replacement card/deck/plan based around that.
I'm personally a fan of opponents doing 'cool stuff' so it seems weird ban wise to cut off these cards.
@@Alwayz114 I get that too. It is easier to come with that already established idea of what happening when you sit down at a table and shuffle up. Imo though before the ban everyone could have done the same thing. Plan for cards in your meta to appear and adjust your decks accordingly. That's also where rule 0 comes in. If we are being told to rule 0 by others but at the same time being told its easier to not do that and just play then nothing really matters. The problem will never be solved no matter what bans the RC puts in place. To me that makes a format not fun. We are having a group of people we don't even play with regulate our tables.
@@Nvr2Busy I suppose that's just a difference of opinion then. I think the rules setting a shared baseline to then move from is where a healthy "rule 0" would be. How a standard no-fuss game should be less reliant on fast mana, but if you want to play those, just check in with the table. Rather than sitting down, saying "Casual, typical rules?" and then someone slamming Mana Crypt turn 1 and calling it casual haha. I've been told by several people in the past day that "Mana Crypt isn't a casual card, no one has it in casual decks" when yes, they do, and I've had to have this awkward discussion of expectation with people before. Now, that understanding is baseline. But if someone asks nicely I'd be down to adjust my expectation for this specific game and go for it
Whether you think the efficacy of the bans is good or not, I do think at a general conceptual level that Bans have a place on top of Rule 0, and are not exclusive with one another, and neither should shoulder the entire burden of managing experiences.
I really feel like the Nadu ban is less about the combo and power level (not saying it's not nuts, it absolutely is), but it feels more like a hit to the cards that are clearly designed for Commander, outside of Commander-specific sets. The description for Nadu said they were designing an EDH-specific card, something that upset a fair amount of people, this hit feels like the RC telling WotC to stop the specific designs moreso than power level. If they'd hit a card for non-deterministic combos, they'd also ban Gitrog Monster.
Bird is gone. All has been restored.
Thinking about the possibility for the community to self regulate and be cohesive on la large scale. What if a commonplace site like edhrec hosted voting for a banlist/unbanlist (every 6 months or so) like it already does for salt scores?
That's not representative at all
Lutri did nothing wrong!! Let him in the 99!
People are engaged, they troll, they spend money to do those things. The costs to keep it bot-free would escalate fast. It shouldn't be their burden tbh.
From a balance/gameplay perspective, I've wanted three of the four of these cards out of the format for a while (I've been confident that people would self-police Nadu, but your mileage may vary). I can't find it in myself to wholeheartedly support this outrage that has been ignited. I'm honestly a bit puzzled, that there have been this persistent complaint over the last half a decade that the format is growing too fast and too powerful - yet, when the RC actually steps in and makes a move towards helping that problem, now it's suddenly a scam?
Yes, many collections have lost 100s or 1000s of dollars in value. And yes, they probably shouldn't have waited this long to ban them. But, if you insist on playing this game like the stock market, you will have to accept that you could lose parts of your investment. At the end of the day, the RC chose to prioritize the gameplay over the collectors who see this game as a financial investment, regardless of how you might feel about the individual cards.
"Commander still has a Ban-ding problem." - Helm of Chatzuk
I can pick up Crypt, Lotus and Dockside for Canadian Highlander now! Lotus will be my proxy Black Lotus
Honestly, with the sudden erasure of half a grand worth of my collection, I'm just not going to trust either the Rules Committee or Wizards themselves not to uphold the legality of chase cards. After buying boxes of Ixalan Collectors for Crypts and Commander Masters for Lotuses, having no warning or communication beforehand of even an announcement, I'm tapping out. I'm just going to sell any and all staples I have still and proxy everything. I don't have confidence anymore that I can play the cards I paid hard earned money for and it's a shameful betrayal. Wizards will not get a single cent from me going forward
You bought boxes and boxes of cards for rare pieces of cardboard. You bought into an insanity, justified it as an investment. Hopefully you'll learn with your life moving forward. Don't spend thousands of dollars on this. Go donate it to charitable causes. 'Shameful betryal'? Your spending habits betray your degeneracy.
Good on ya, I hope you find that the game can still be fun even if you don't dump tons of money into it. Also this is a game , not an investment portfolio
Byyyy, Felicia
I'll be doing the same. I will not be notifying anyone that my entire deck is now proxies. If others want to pay the absurd price for cardboard that's their choice but I won't be limiting my use of proxies for other players or for their experience.
@@nightmarebananaful It is a game, I wasn't banking my Kid's tuition on it or anything, but if I put in 200 bucks on a card I want to get that value out of a game piece, as there's no guarantee that I'll be able to play the cards I pay for, I'm just not going to pay for it anymore. I have other hobbies where could put that money into instead of just burning it on MTG. Probably for the best anyways
Love Matt's and Joey's comment on the duality of the masses, like you can't have your cake and eat it to
Honestly my play group doesn't give a crap about the RC and their bans so this doesn't hit me personally, but I feel bad for those that pulled a copy of one of these or bought a copy just a few days ago for those prices. Hopefully the people who got burned by this will realize it's not worth spending that much money on cardboard and start proxying everything. Why bother buying any powerful new cards when they could be banned within a few months? Just spend some change and print out a copy on your printer or spend a bit more (though still far less than the average price of a lot of cards) and get your proxies printed at higher quality.
I don’t personally feel comfortable making value judgements about the RC, as the main thing I’ve learned in two years as a Magic player is that the game is ridiculously complex and difficult to manage. That said, I agree with the growing sentiment that cEDH needs its own separate banlist. It’s clearly a different crowd with different goals, and its banlist should reflect that.
These were chase cards in sets targeted towards commander players
True, but that's not the RC's fault. It absolutely is unfortunate though.
@@EDHRECastplayers losing the value of these cards is absolutely entirely on them though
The RC I mean
@@ryandavidson3610 I guess, but we're not sure that should be a factor in the decision. We're not saying it's not unfortunate but it's not a reason not to ban a problem card.
@@EDHRECast I didn’t say it should, just that people are allowed to be reasonable upset at the people responsible for this banning, aka the people in charge of the decision
@@EDHRECast I absolutely agree with the bans from a casual perspective, I just really hate how out of nowhere this decision was, I really miss the communicative nature of the RC with Sheldon. As much as people disagreed with him on occasion, at least he would communicate what was happening, not just drop a bombshell and leave the community to pick up the pieces.
I have one copy of Dockside from buying the precon back then. I had already removed it from my deck because it just didn’t fit my play style or my groups meta. I have 1 copy of mana crypt that again, was removed from a deck because it was a feels bad for people when I dropped it. So I’m not even using them, and I’m not really hurting financially from this and I still think these bans don’t make any sense. For tournament play? I suppose it makes sense. For local “rule 0” games it makes zero sense to me and these cards were not dominating any games I played except with online players who were min maxxing their games but “not playing cedh”. These bans feel more like personal bias than any of the bans before and it highlights the problems with the way the commander format is being handled by WOTC.
100% agreement
Clearly haven’t played against “casual” dockside extortionist wincons or early game commander into a win next turn that people still claim to be “mid power” in rule 0 discussions
@@bassrhythms3547 No it’s definitely happened, and I just don’t play with those people. A ban list only makes sense when curating a competitive environment for tournaments or similar scenarios. Commander is not really that, and these bans will not have a noticeable impact on the type of person you describe showing up in pods. It’s an inherent problem with the social aspect of commander. People just need to get more comfortable with politely saying Good Game and moving on and if it comes up explaining why you don’t want to play with someone. If you do that and they get angry that is a problem they need to work out.
@@bassrhythms3547 I hear you, but those same people playing a "casual" deck are going to still do other things to be menaces to casual pods.
Mana crypt went from around $200 to around $75
If you only account for the manacrypts listed in EDHREC decks then that is a loss of $62,906,375 to the community. Let alone the ones in LGS's and binders and decks that just aren't registered to EDHREC
You aren't entitled to value for your collection. Once upon a time, Mana Crypt was $50. It was even cheaper before that. These cards were never supposed to be this expensive.
Nice
@@Arctanis-vt3hlsure but millions lost across a community based of the opinion off a small group of people in the rules commity is wild. RC should recommend bans and the community get to vote to ban.
This excludes LGS now bag holding sealed products that are now no where near the cost they were forced to buy them for.
@@Arctanis-vt3hl There are a lot of things people aren't entitled to that they'd be upset if all of a sudden it was ripped from them. And justifiably so.
Its really a shock to see these cards banned after so long. Especially since Dockside and Jeweled Lotus are part of the game for so long and were always only commented on as "rule 0 it". Personally i am quite hard hit, own 6 copies of each (except Nadu), 4 are currently in decks and that banning cost me like 1600 Euro so far. Not gonna lie, it is only a problem if you dont talk about the decks before starting a game.
They should have banned these cards when they were released, like Hullbreacher. They arent suddenly broken because of some new tech. Its been like this for years and years
Agreed, the real problem is these bans are years too late.
Uh, what's your definition of "so long"? Jeweled Lotus is only 4 years old. Dockside 5 and Mana Crypt 25 or something?
I do agree with RC's justification that that these cards had gotten better over time though. The power level of (legendary creature) cards has skyrocketed during the recent years, making these cards more and more unhealthy for the format and they were only going to get worse going forward.
I was in the boat where these cards weren't a huge menace in my play circles, since most people are poor students or just very casual MTG players, but these cards would still show up to ruin games often enough. Just last week, I had a game where a newbie sat down to play game with an unmodded precon, only to have one guy open with T1 Sol Ring+Signet and the other guy start with Jeweled Lotus into commander. Now, I'd be surprised if I ever see that person again. I probably wouldn't come back after that kind of experience.
The bans, from my perspective, are the best thing that has happened to the format in years. Wish they had axed more cards if I'm completely honest. Sorry about your monetary loss though. It sucks that the potential of losing such large sums of money has become a part of this hobby 😦
@sicktoid said it, but I'll reiterate that the problem was the cards you could ramp out with them got better. Think of all the cards that weren't good until Dredge made them good. Not a perfect analogy, but close enough.
@@EDHRECast While i do see that legendary creatures got better, my decks arent just creatures printed in the past 2-3 years. A lot of stuff is older. Looking at my decks which have these cards in it, Purphoros Goblins, Syr Gwyn Knight Tribal, Locust God and Korvold Treasure Tribal, only 1 deck has a substantial amount of "new" cards - which is Korvold - because there is so much good treasure stuff. All the other ones have only a minor amount of cards in them.
My best guess is that these half a million decks with Mana Crypt in them probably also dont have that much "new" stuff in there :)
Anyone noticed how quiet the Commander Rules Commitee members are lately?
They knew. They sold.
Or maybe they don't want to poke their heads up and be attacked by rabid magic players that can't control their emotions over some cardboard.
Tinfoil hat theories over "insider trading" is also laughable, but it's at least more entertaining to read than the whining
I think lotus and nadu were a message to R&D, for the sake of other formats, and Crypt and dockside were a message to the wallet milking department
I think these cards are ban-worthy, but they really should have not just dropped it out of nowhere... at least give us a heads-up that there's stuff going down
Edit: I think just saying "We are planning a ban announcement for the fall" with no further details would have been better than just silence
What would have been the difference?
If you mean they should have said those exact cards are getting banned in a month that changes nothing
With how swingy the card market it, they could probably get in trouble for that, then they would deal with complaints. Either way, they kinda had their hands tied. I think it's better they ripped the bandaid off.
@Russian_engineer_bmstu They've done it before and it didn't affect things too much. Really though the problem is these bans are years too late.
That's a fair objection. I'm not sure there's an elegant way to do that, but we get why it feels like a rug got pulled.
@@Russian_engineer_bmstu I was thinking something along the lines of "We feel that fast starts are being problematic and are looking at ways to slow down the early game of commander. Stay tuned for an announcement in early autumn"
I've seen JL, Dockside and Crypt slapped into so many decks. Running red? 0 downside to having Dockside. It immediately powers up the deck for no downside or needing to build around it.
It sucks that a card like JL is just a dead card now,but it was becoming a problem to see those cards in every deck you built.
shocked to see crypt go
It makes sense, these cards are all but ruled out in any normal game. Imo this is probably to push people away from extremely strong staples/wizards making these obviously too strong cards
Not power-wise, but because of the length of time that it had sat around safe. That said, we get the logic that powering out a four drop printed in the last couple years is a different deal than powering out a four drop printed in 2015.
The Jeweled Lotus ban makes me sad because I was only ever running it in Commander Decks that had a really bad commander (Ramses Overdark for example) to potentially bridge some of the pain of getting them out. I get why it went if Crypt did though.
I think the biggest problem with these bans is with the exception of Nadu, the other 3 were just cards that were very good. In the right groups they were a ton of fun to play. If people want to not play with strong cards that’s perfectly within their right, but why make that a universal decision. Banning cards like those 3 for the sake of “high power in causal games” flies in the face of rule zero. It is absolutely easier in the rule zero conversation to state not wanting to play against certain cards rather than requesting to allow banned cards. This decision is an overstep of the rc and bad for the way it enforces only one way to play.
Rule 0 does not work with strangers at an LGS. Or at least it never has for me. It works great with friends, but randos at an LGS needs a baseline to make exceptions to and I’m much more comfortable with the new baseline personally.
@@johnathanrhoades7751 I honestly 100% empathize with that view point and I think it’s perfectly valid. My issue with it is that I don’t think that an rc which should represent the whole hobby caters towards that specific style of play. I personally love playing low powered decks just as much as high powered, but I disagree with the notion that because I enjoy lower powered everyone else should be forced to as well. A decision made in favor is casual, slow play (which was stated in the announcement) doesn’t accurately reflect the entire hobby, just a portion of it.
@@austinhite2684 I can see that. I do think mature people can and should build decks with those cards have a rule 0 conversation and have fun. Just like before mature people could have a rule 0 conversation and exclude those cards. But I personally am very happy to have a baseline without those cards.
Exactly. I have Dockside and a Mana Crypt and we are playing just with friends and i have ask them anytime, if it would be ok to play them. And yes the cards are very good but in most games it makes no difference
Lot of players who run those banned cards either literally dont have decks without them or just won’t care and play them anyways. You’ve definitely run across players who says they’re running mid-high power level and they win turn 3-5
There was NO community input here.
In this day and age theres zero reason outside of hubris that a group purporting to work in a communities interest shouldnt consult the community first. A poll minimum, a meeting with high profile community members who they themselves survey and act/"vote" on behalf of their members, even a period of announcement of intent wherein they could gauge feedback before finalising their decissions.
This was handled poorly, sheldons influence and absence seems saddly obvious now
I feel a little Betrayed by the RC tbh. they have been talking about banning dockside for a while so it wasn't a surprise. Nadu not a surprise. but to ban 2 cards that were the top pull from 2 recent sets without even a hint has me wanting to sell any card I have with value and Proxy good cards I want for my decks. The RC has probably been talking about these for a long time too. If they are going to ban cards without considering their value then what's next? Rhystic study? Smothering Tithe? I now have no confidence in buying MTG sealed because the price is to high and the value keeps getting lower.
We completely get folks upset that they feel caught by surprise.
But here's the thing - how can they give anyone a hint without getting the same result. Once a shop finds out a card is in consideration, they will stop buying it. You won't be able to sell the card either way.
Rhystic study and smothering tithe are fully banned in my play group as well. And frankly, these bans are deserved and don't affect my playgroup as we all sold our copies because we never play with them an we wanted to use the money to make other decks. And if they ban smothering and rhystic too, we'll be fine as well.
@Arctanis-vt3hl the alternative is a player base that has been defrauded by the game something that will kill the game we love and will result and a greater harm to lgs as set will start to sit on shelves with worthless chase cards
2 recent sets!? Bro lost caverns of ixilan came out almost a FULL YEAR ago. The other card one was reprented in double masters like 2 years ago in 2022 how are acting like these got printed a couple or months ago or something.
Card value should not be taking into consideration when talking about what to ban for the health of the game/format... like in fact a lot of time the expensive cards are the ones being looked at to be hit because they are usually expesive for a reason.
Honestly i dont see dockside as a problem. It comes down early it MAY give you 2-3 mana. If the argument is that it gives you a bump late game why is that even a problem? Why not also ban approach of the second sun while you're at it?
Can a deck take advantage of it by causing it to enter a ton? Yes, and so can gravecrawler or spirited companion at that point!
Ever heard of recursion, bounce, or blink? The thing that makes him broken is that he can be reused.
@Arctanis-vt3hl yeah, but are we gonna have to worry about gravecrawler, spirited companion, or peregrine drake as well since they can also be exploited by entering multiple times?
If a deck is made to do a thing, dont be shocked when it does the thing. Hold up interaction and interact!
I tend to agree that Dockside was not that big of a deal. I have it in two decks, and I’ll have to replace it. Neither of those decks will be appreciably worse by taking it out.
What bothers me is the precedence this set for any store and buyer on a high value card or in general the value of the cards, while yeah I agree is a game and it should be a game it does leave a very fearful feeling on people on buying anything over a certain dollar if they can simple sniff it out, jewel is basically useless the others can still see some play.
100% agree. Why collect cards or put money into your decks if the rules committee can just out of the blue decide "we think that these cards should go" like 5, or 10 years after they have been heavily established into the format.
@@dakotanielsen9073 That's true of every Magic format though. And we're not so sure it was arbitrary, either. These cards have been issues for years, and talked about as such. We were surprised it came to a head now, but the fact that these cards were problems wasn't unknown.
@@EDHRECast while it is true in other formats as well, it's impossible to deny that commander is the driving force for a majority of the monetary value of cards at this point in time. I'm pretty neutral on all the bans, but what I'm not neutral on is the lack of communication before this decision was made. There should have been an announcement that these cards were in discussion for a possible ban in the near future, and then game stores could have stopped buying them and players who were interested in buying could have weighed that risk and adjusted their decisions based on that knowledge of a possible ban.
Doing this with no notice (other than dockside, which has been mentioned as being on a watch list for a while) is just unacceptable in my opinion. I didn't really have a strong opinion on the RC before this, but this has caused me to lose any faith in their ability to manage the format in a way that is best for the players of said format.
@@EDHRECast Not really. Other formats are less proxy friendly and more competitive focused.
@@JacobBiaggi Yeah, we get why it's frustrating. We're not sure there's an elegant solution that doesn't cause other problems, but it absolutely sucked to feel like a rug got yanked yesterday.
Im okay with all banns, but im really surprised that they banned all 3 mana cards at the same time
I had a Dockside in a janky Mayel the Anima deck. I opened it up when I purchased a some premium product. Kind of bummed because this card getting banned washed away a decent amount of the value of my purchase. Probably going to stay away from premium product from now on.
I feel the same way. Have a a themberchaud deck that kinda relied on dockside to have somewhat of a chance to survive after a board wipe. Now my fun, but not particularly good deck is significantly worse, and they have killed the value of what is by far my most expensive card.
Kinda how i feel. I opened a box of some such years ago, might have been the OG commander masters and got a mana crypt. I know exactly what deck it’s in and im just like “oh…” now.
Telling players that crypt and jeweled where on the radar for a ban would have been a nice move from the rc...I own 2 mana crypt and 2 docksides and I feel like I've been robbed.
They did. Do some research
Really happy with all of these bans personally! I wish they had done this 5 years ago.
But I am sorry for the value lost to players. But WotC should not have let them get that expensive in the first place.
I do wonder if some changes in the RC with Sheldon’s death and all lead us here.
Some folks took a real bath on this, and that's really unfortunate.
It's not the duality of the interent, they didn't ban it for 5 years, we all thought i was stupid when spoiled they didn't pre ban it, then it got printed again so to the player base that's pretty much a green light
Casual Rules committee: bans problematic cards in casual.
cEDH players: how dare you!
I disagree completely with what most of you were saying. Sure I don’t want to play against any of those cards in a casual game of fun. But there’s so many more cards that would need to be banned. Ancient tomb, chrome mox, gaea’s cradle, and more
In addition to this on the financial side this is a terrible mistake. If Wizards wants players to brut premium products that are being driven by chase cards then they can’t ban them
I think these are good bans, but what upset me the most about it is not the bans themselves, but the reaction from players and some content creators complaining about not being allowed to play their expensive cards and losing a lot of money. Look, I am sorry you lost money, that sucks, but the price point for crypt, dockside, and lotus were prohibitive to players trying to get into the game. Not every store, nor every group/pod, is proxy friendly. Not everyone can afford these pricy cards. It comes off as a bit selfish to complain about the bans because of the price of the cards. When you buy a card, any card, in a TCG, you accept the risk that cards sometimes get banned. If you spend a lot of money on arguably 3 of the 10 most powerful cards in the format, and they get banned, you accepted that risk when you bought them. Good riddance I say. These cards only existed to do degenerate things and outside of CEDH only made games at a given table worse.
I don't accept the risk the cards will be banned. I will just ignore the rc moving forward. No risk, done.
WotC: *literal multicard value engine popping off*
RC: *casts Decimate*
Actually the cEDH meta was absolutely condensed because so many of the T2 decks are Dockside dependent. So you were a bit over your skis on discussing its impact. Yes, it will not cease to exist, and yes it is negatively affected to a considerable degree.
What i’d like to know, and what no one can explain is why there isn’t room for these cards to exist in what should be an inclusive environment. The RC is clearly moving towards being purposely exclusionary towards players who prefer more explosive starts and shorter games.
It's not so much that there isn't room for these cards to exist so much as it is people were running them in places they shouldn't have been running them despite a pre-game conversation. That isn't true of something like LED or Diamond, which is why those card remains legal despite being gonzo good.
Everything leads to having two formats. So what if EDH started cedh. They can exist as seperate entities in the way PDH (pauper EDH) has their own ban list. I like to play both competitive cutthroat decks and mid-range casual and have desired for a long while to have a different ban list for both.
@@EDHRECast Thanks for the response. I suppose my follow up question would be “so?” Is this happening at the odd LGS justification to remove the cards from the entire player base’s pool? Should the RC really be getting into the business of policing bad player behavior? Can they even successfully do so?
@@EDHRECast What is stopping people from Ad Nauseam Thoracle people into oblivion in the same tables? That is playing whack-a-mole, pubstompers will pubstomp. And you don't get to ban out of the blue a few of the most expensive cards in the format that can be reprinted in a day and age where precons have infinity combos. After discussing the dockside ban for years, they decided to ban it after the dust settled, while banning Crypt and Jeweled Lotus out of nowhere.
Why Sol Ring belongs in a casual table and Mana Crypt doesn't? Just because of the price? Because if you are playing battlecruiser, Sol Ring might actually be better (the life loss adds up, the 1 cost is negligible).
@@heliobarbosa3525 We don't know what stops Ad Naus/Thoracle from popping up as much at casual tables, but for whatever reason they don't, or at least haven't so far at a rate enough that the RC thinks they need to be banned.
I wonder if jeweled lotus exiled after its use would of been better and not be banned.
That paragraph on Sol Ring was also such a joke. Talk about rationalizing. There's no reason Sol Ring couldn't get banned and, considering their reasoning for banning the other cards, Sol Ring should ABSOLUTELY have been banned. From the beginning making it the flagship card of the format was a mistake and the fact that they refuse to correct it, especially when bringing the hammer so hard otherwise, is just laughable. Yes, you can ban that card and it should have been from the beginning.
Definitely
Your delulu if you think sol ring is ever getting banned. Just soy harder
Pretty much. They could ban Sol Ring easily. Command Tower is the poster card for EDH.
Zero mana artifact that taps for two colorless and costed over $200 was significantly more harmful to the large majority of edh players than a 1 mana artifact that taps for two colorless that’s less than 2 dollars. Imagine telling 95% of ALL edh players that they can’t use a card that’s probably in each of their decks already. Trust me, it’s a good thing sol ring didn’t get banned now. Should it have been banned before when the format started? Probably, but now it’s too late for banning the one card almost everyone has in their decks already. This banning may have salty cedh players stop playing the format altogether, but the majority of casual players don’t care/might be glad they don’t get pubstompted, which is what the ban was trying to address.
@bassrhythms3547 Yeah, it is too late now. It would be irresponsible to make every precon unplayable.
I glad to see dockside and nadu as well a jeweled lotus but mana crypt doesn’t see play in causal. This is why a cedh RC is needed
High-power non-cEDH casual is still definitely a thing. I've never played cEDH and I've seen tons of mana crypts.
13:00 why does the cast refuse to acknowledge that the deckbuilding sites that edhrec scrapes from also include cedh decklists? A lot of cedh players create individual versioned lists when testing/create an entirely new decklist page for distribution to TOs for a single tournament, which would skew the representation of these cards in casual decks.
Or what about the fact that not every list online is even built/played in paper? These stats cannot reliably be used when discussing the "casual" commander format and the experience casual players are having. These are vibes based guesses at best.
We've literally done shows on just that topic so we're not sure what lack of acknowledgement you're talking about.
@@EDHRECast that seems like a relevant point to make in this video when discussing inclusion percentages for those who may not have not seen every episode you've made.
I have dockside in my Ziatora deck with one of my win cons being treasures but in my pod unless my friend was playing daretti I might of made 4 treasures and that is if it ever showed up.
how dare you put jeweled lotus in your janky commander deck.
Yeah dude that’d definitely why the card got banned. No one out there was showing up to the LGS with all these cards in korvold playing against Timmy with his bloomburrow precon….
"How dare you play you play a deck with an 8 CMC commander at the helm in AZORIUS. You wanted to play your commander by turn 5 or 6? Well fuck yourself, cuz you're gonna be playing it on the turn it naturally costs to play - the way Sheldon and Richard intended!" - Almost every casual edgelord on Facebook
@@KismetRegret a banlist cant fix that.
@@king.eternal5980 it helped! If we remove problem cards we can remove the frequency of feelsbads
God forbid my blind seer got out a turn early
I like the bans. If we are going to have a rules committee they need to be doing things to try and help everyone have better games. I do think sol ring needs to be banned as well but by doing so would make all unbought and stock precons illegal decks. It does hurt if you own many copies of these cards.
I proxy these expensive cards, and played them to help prop up my weaker commanders or who are often over costed compared to newer commanders. I worry that hacking off our access to these cards will whittle down what commanders people are willing to get creative with.
It feels bad when an opponent plays a mana crypt. Im poor and it was so expensive,
like sure if you had one play one. But man not having one sucked, playable in ever deck and table warping. Im glad to see it go
Ah okay...and cause of you cant afford it no one has to have it
Good riddance. None of those cards should even exist. The EDH overlords are just cleaning up the mess Wizards made.
Listen ..a true Casual speaking
Ironically you're probably fine with Sol Ring existing lmao
@@MOTOJendays Of course I'm not. Sol Ring It's busted, one of the most powerful cards of the entire game. There's a reason it's not being reprinted for constructed formats and it's banned and restricted in every other format.
They're not brave enough to ban it, but I think that if more and more of the community stops using it in their play groups they'll reconsider it.
@@Suhrvivor The community will never stop using it. The only reason people stopped using crypt was because RC told the community to stop it.
Ngl the ban does kinda feel targeted at cedh. Power isn’t a bad thing to have in a format. However this makes me think rule zero really isn’t working.
We'd argue they're targeted entirely at casual players who lack the self control to not run them in low-powered pods while also not disclosing it in the rule zero conversation. That said, cEDH heavily paid the price for that lack of self control.
@@EDHRECasthow do you guys feel about unbans of other cards on the ban list? since the format is clearly faster in general when than when a card was banned it may have been a problem but now some of them could be fine.
@@FatstaxMTG Could they unban say Prime Time? Maybe. Are games better having Prime Time in them? We're not so sure. But maybe that's a reason to not unban something, either.
Comparing jeweled lotus to dark ritual at 14:40 shows how crazy that card is. Even ignoring the permanent vs spell, it gets 50% more mana, and you can use it for a color you didn't play a land for
It's a black lotus. 100%
I'm just gonna say it: I doubt this would have happened under Sheldon's watch. The bans, sure...but gradually, and with warning signs. He wouldn't have let the community feel as collectively burned as they currently do.
It seems pretty clear that there were elements of the committee literally laying in wait for him to die so they could make the more radical changes they wanted.
Funny how the paragraph explaining the reason behind the jeweled lotus ban was indirectly talking about Voja 😂 dang wolf took our jewel away
Im happy to see these bans, even as an owner of these cards. It sucks to lose value, but I greatly prioritize the health of the format over the money lost. Im looking forward to see what the future holds for edh.
I think of all of the cards, Mana Crypt is the most surprising to me to be banned, just because it's the oldest of the four and it is a mechanically unique card that *can* lead to fun/memorable moments with the coin flip mechanic and the chance of damage that can cumulate in long games. I understand that, with how it's used normally, the damage and the coin flip ability tend to be inconsequential, but I do like it conceptually for those reasons. By contrast, Dockside Extortionist and Jeweled Lotus don't really have much that's like particularly mechanically unique or novel, both are doing things that are fairly standard for what we'd expect them to do. They're powerful, sure, but not unique. Then of course there's Nadu, which *is* mechanically unique, but the way it's unique is what makes it a problem. Whereas, the unique mechanics of Mana Crypt are what attempt to balance it and make it interesting as a mana rock outside it being just a more powerful Sol Ring.
But otherwise, I'm for the bans.
Majority of the time, if people played mana crypts the damage wouldn’t matter since they would try to win before it becomes significant
@@bassrhythms3547 Which is why I specifically said "I understand that, with how it's used normally, the damage and the coin flip ability tend to be inconsequential."
This marks a hard left turn from Sheldon's philosophy. From: "hey, rule zero these cards out of your playgroup if you don't like them" to "hey, we'll just ban the things we don't like because we assume no one likes them."
I think the other hidden aspect of this is that these cards were absolute signposts for 'high powered EDH'. You could ask someone else in the pregame conversation very clearly "hey, how strong is this deck? Is it built with fast mana? Lotus / Crypt? What are we playing with."
And their answer was able to communicate a lot.
"Yeah, this deck has a crypt" Cool. We're playing relatively optimized EDH. Let me pull out my Prossh deck.
"No." Tight, we're playing at a lower power level. Let me grab my Queen Marchesa equipment / knights deck.
What are your new sign posts?
Problem with that, you would need a consistent playgroup in order to do that. If you tried to play with other people in an LGS or another event, no one will ban cards rule 0 because people don’t want to remove cards from their deck.
The thing here is, people are not upset because they were unwarranted bans, they are upset because they lost money. And while I understand it, they are expensive cards, but value in the secondary market should never be considered in the question of "should this card be banned"
I think I’m only bummed about the Crypt banning. I can’t see why a card in the format this long should be banned now and without hitting Sol Ring which is the closest card to Crypt IMO. Maybe if a card is more than a decade in the format without being banned should essentially be unbannable? 10+ years has got to be a sign of not a big problem and being stable. People could be confident in getting a card like this without fear of losing the ability to play it. IDK. It just feels off to me to ban it now.
Totally, will never understand and don't even want to know what's next on the list
Elephant in the room. How many people decided what is banned?
There's six people on the RC but I'm not sure they've announced anything regarding the voting split, if there even was one.
@@EDHRECast do you think if MTG players voted for the members instead of them self-electing would be better for the community?
@@21Kikoshi I think having no RC would be best. Rule zero is all we need if you truly are playing casual. If you are playing in a tournament, then that tournament can give a curated ban list in advance for all to see. We live in a digital age and there is no reason this can't be effective.
@@21Kikoshi Who knows. Maybe, but you risk some sketchy stuff happening with online polls/voting too. But we're certainly no experts in that area.
They keep taking my pirates... hullbreacher and now dockside. Wouldn't play then elsewhere...
Why couldn’t the pirates play Commander? Because the captain was standing on the deck.
Its interesting to note that if a card "defies the laws of physics" it will not get looked at for bans
Appreciate the insights and discussion.
Only wish you guys could've talked a bit more about the Sol Ring situation instead of just giving it the "iconic" argument, because personally (and for many other people) it doesn't seem like a sufficient argument to keep it legal.
Every precon becomes unplayable seems to be a decent argument.
(Dana here) I'll give you my argument; Sol Ring is a weird little historic bit of spice that makes Commander unique. It's a dream everyone can live since it's easy to find and cheap, and it adds some variety to games, kinda like how Fenway Park has the Green Monster or how Tiger Stadium has a flag pole in play in center field. Once you add a bunch of weird obstacles to the play space things get clowny, but one is interesting. Is that an argument to keep it legal? Maybe it's not one that convinces you, but it's one that works for me.
@@EDHRECast Those comparisons are a bit too American for me but I completely understand 🤣
I'm definitely on the minority when it comes to it, and if it were for me, just ban all the more "egregious" fast mana despite its availability, Vault, Moxes, etc., and that just includes SR on the way. I think Commander itself is already so unique on its core that losing Sol Ring wouldn't change how the format plays on that chance a player or two draw it, but I do understand how it's almost unique to the format.
Really appreciate the response!
@@nathansanchez51 yeah i don't think wizards would be happy to have every box for commander suddenly made invalid and even more for new players being told you need to change 1 card before being able to play when they might not even own sleeves
@@darktigre2686 From past situations like this, pre-constructed decks with illegal cards on them are "legal" as long as you're playing them as is, if you change even one card, then you have to take out the illegal card. I understand it's a logistic nightmare to communicate this and stuff, but I don't know.
Can I have a good pirate treasure maker for under 4cmc that doesn't get banned please?
Crypt felt like it caught a stray bullet. Nadu and Jeweled Lotus feel correct. Dockside I'm not sure how I feel about
Dockside was at the top of my list for years. I'm surprised it took this long. Only reason why Crypt is surprising is cause it's been legal for the entire history of CMDR, but it is excessive.
@malmasterson3890 and it's been THE EDH chase card for years from WotC. There's been reprint after reprint at ridiculously high prices. And now the RC just slapped us in the face. Good luck selling premium products aimed towards EDH players in the future WotC, because players will remember this
I said to my playgroup that theu should have banned the cheapest one of these first with the clear statement of "this is the first ban of a sequence of bans in which faster games are not the intention of commander games"
It hopefully would have hinted towards the bigger value cards that people could have chosen to offload.
I recently started playing cEdh, some of my best tools just got whacked. I'm bummed, and that's ok. Still, as a player, I play more casual and these cards never make it into my decks, but I can't help but feel like it was an L for competitive players.
What makes commander great is you can play at any level you want, and I just kinda feel like people who like playing games at a high power kinda got the short end of the stick here.
The cEDH tip of the format absolutely caught a stray here.
@@EDHRECast I wouldn't label that a stray. This feels like a statement after that failed attempt to get a cEDH RC set up not that long ago.
One of my friend's other play group is planning to ignore the ban due to their player base only recently buying into these cards to improve their decks and were blindsided by these sudden changes. They are a smaller community with a smaller pool of income, but enough to afford investing in these cards. Our own small group is thinking we ought to ignore it as well because it was such a surprise change in the banlist. Several of these bans have undercut the expensive purchases made by players who were looking to pick up the chase reprints of these cards.
My issues aren't so much the bans themselves but the lack of fanfare leading up to the bans and the fact they could have dropped around the same time as the banlist updates of other formats in August. Players were anticipating a potential shift in meta but the RC stayed silent for the month. Only now, in late September did the RC ban these cards.
I also like how they say its hard to interact with ward but keep fucking printing it.
The RC has no control over what Wizards prints. Wizards doesn’t manage the Commander bans or what have you.
@@johnathanrhoades7751 i wrote it wrong im not saying only the rc says ward is hard to interact with wizards themselves also considers ward "something to keep an eye on"
The biggest problem about the ban is within a year we had 2 major sets that pushed lotus and mana crypt as THE Chase for spending hundreds-thousands to open these boxes. The talk about banning them wasn't just done last week. Their would have been ongoing meetings about it while the sets are bringing in millions.
For sure, but that's not really the RC's fault if (big if) WotC did something questionable with these cards using information given in good faith.
IMHO, this is why wizards never should’ve stepped into commander, tbh I’m a little glad to see that Wizards might now have to shift business practices on the basis of this,if they had not designed for EDH, this wouldn’t be an issue.
This isn't really about fast mana it's about the Ban List. No one understands the underlying guidelines of the ban list... including the RC. Almost every entry (or lack of entry, e.g. Sol Ring) feels arbitrary.
We don't agree. We get why almost every cards is on there, and the RC has explained why as well. Could they clean up some of it, ie also ban Bazaar since Library is banned? Sure, but do you think that's gonna cause more or less yelling? Since we know the answer is more, and since it's not an active problem, then why do it?
@EDHRECast I would argue that, without any form of prior notice, causing millions of dollars in capital loss to both players and local game stores worldwide over an issue that is easily solved through rule 0 is, without question, and active problem. That's exactly why rule 0 exists to begin with.
Only Nadu should’ve been banned. There’s multiple ways to deal with each of these cards and this just rewards control players. If anything it hurts red the most. I’m still playing the cards, I don’t need WoTC telling me how to play.