$100k Stereo System VS $10k towers
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- I continue answering your questions about Home Theater and Acoustics. Here is the question for this video:
"You are often around at Audio shows where these $ 100K plus stereo systems are displayed with 6 feet tall towers , expensive cabinetry , cabling and very expensive amplifiers .
Is it likely that a “modest” pair of well measuring towers under 10k price with a sub or 2 paired with a suitable , but similarly priced stereo amplifier will outperform the former ??"
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Thanks for such a well thought out and balanced explanation of your thoughts on the matter .
Your knowledge and understanding in the field is fascinating indeed ! Also , your professional integrity deserves credit too . This is evidenced by how much loved and respected you are by your peers .
Thank you Matt 🙏
Glad it was helpful! I appreciate your support
Value is perceived by the individual. Identify your personal requirements and tastes. You can't get all the performance for no money, so if you have a modest budget(I do) prioritize what's most important to you.
Thank you for expressing yourself so well and I’m glad that I parallel that philosophy!! Especially the part where you said that as long as it’s bringing you joy, why should it matter how much it cost.
Great video Matt!
I think Im in the minority on this, but I love my small home theater. The intimacy and closeness of everything just makes for a different experience. I've been considering digging out our basement and using some of the space for a bigger theater, but I'm really not convinced I would enjoy that any more than I enjoy my current room. Not to mention, as you said, costs go way up as you go bigger.
this is such great content. conversations like this is why i love youtube.
Awesome video on a complex topic. Love your very insightful and objective input.
Matthew, don’t forget the room, room treatments and DSP/room correction.
Well of course. But that wasn’t the question.
I don't understand the output concept. In my 16x20 room with a Sony 7000 avr and denon 3800 and cheap ass speakers I get blown away by movie loudness, and have to often turn down the loud music bits. Of course I'm not an audiophile but I'm constantly turning it down. I also adjust levels of whatever speaker I want to hear louder depending on the movie, I enjoy that ability. Is that considered unprofessional?
Good I choose a kef for my one good speaker as he mentioned that brand for budget, the Model 5 as a center. As I upgrade the rest of my cheap speakers I guess I'll stick with kef then, thanks.
Btw I send the signal from the Sony to the denon and can get 9.6.10 which is fun.
Matthew, I want you to hear the black swans from ascendo to see what you think. I actually think Perlisten is pretty reasonable given what they can do!
Are you talking about home theater or stereo listening?
So for 10-13 feet listening distance what would be the output you would look at? 102db at 1 meter? With subs
Cheers man. Good video
Where would you put procella in the speaker comparison, they have good output and directivity
Regarding what you said about powered studio monitors being output limited, the $5k Genelec 8361A claims to have a max output of 118dB @ 1 meter. The Neumann KH 420 is a similar price and claims a peak output of 122dB. In theory, that seems like it should be enough for a room of your size. Are there other considerations that prevent that from being the case in real world usage?
We’ve found that those ratings don’t match reality. Basically. The two models you mention might work ok in my room. But would be at or near their limits. They would not work in a larger room.
I really don’t know why the disconnect. Neuman provides many types of SPL data using different measures. One problem we have is that the measure of output for reference level is ambiguous. It was originally set based on pink noise but was intended to refer to movie content. Movie content has a far lower crest factor than pink noise.
The Genelec and Neuman speakers have really intense limiters and we see those limiters intrude well below the SPL levels they are rated at. It suggests to me they maybe can only do such high SPL as lower bandwidth transients. Not sustained for any time and with wide bandwidth.
I have not done a lot of theaters using these so it’s possible they would work in practice better than the data suggests. I can’t specify a product like that without confidence it will meet the needs. I do have an upcoming project that uses the 8361A and I’ll be commissioning and calibrating it. I’ll soon know how it does. The space it’s going into is not huge, but probably similar to my room.
@@PoesAcoustics That makes sense. I've often seen speakers rated for a "max SPL" that can only hit that peak at around 1kHz. The bass and treble really struggle to actually hit that peak rating in any real world use. I was hoping that as professional products, Genelec/Neuman would spec their monitors closer to reality than audiophile brands tend to.
I would very much be interested in the results of the 8361A project you having coming up. If the client allows you to share any video or photos, that would be pretty cool. If not, just your discussion on the experience of working with them would still be very interesting. Thanks!
@@sk9592 I will do my best to follow up. I believe the products have been ordered. But install hasn’t begun. I think they are still doing construction.
@@PoesAcoustics Cool, looking forward to hearing about it if you ever make a video on it!
So glad for my low SPL preference, saves a ton of money. But, it does suck that movie audio is mixed with reference levels in mind. I feel like I'm losing some detail quality because of unavoidable dynamic range loss at 95db peaks. But I still prefer my home system to commercial theaters.
A lot of people look at sensitivity and max SPL number and make a simple calculation with the amounts of watts they need to reach reference spl levels.
I made this same mistake, I planned to use 6 inch purifi woofers for my built at first, but luckily purifi posted an image showing the excursion limited SPL numbers for their drivers. Now i'm waiting for the 10 inch version
😅
Yes for many reasons that isn’t a viable method. Even we use that method as part of a calculation to estimate an unknown speakers suitability. But we take the number with a grain of salt and we use common sense to decide if the derived max SPL is realistic for the design.
Such a value is never full bandwidth. It’s an estimate of the thermally limited max output. Xmax will set a lower limit at lower frequencies.
@8:39 Tekton should of hired you to not destroy their reputation
Great and thoughtful video, thank you !
I thought those were real new PSB towers... 😅😅 ..you got me. 😊😊
Great video, I like the way you answered the question a lot, from dynamics to amps, thanks!
Did anyone else see Matt's hair grow suddenly at 09:48????🤣
Rambling was good - you branched off into some interesting topics. Can you point us with a little more detail toward amplification? Something on the I-still-need-to-send-my-kids-to-college budget? Thanks!
I think the companies making amplifiers using Purifi and Hypex are great. Check those out. Buckeye amps has a good reputation.
I have a question relating to pairing the perlisten S7t series or R7t series with parasound A51/JC-5 amps. Will they work well together? I understand one concern could be noise floor, but that doesn't really concern me much. I just dont want to have to go through the hassle of selling my current amps. I considered the NAD M23 and M28, but if I can avoid moving on from parasound, would like to know your opinion.
There is no problem. They are a 4 ohm load. The Parasound gear is very good. I feel like maybe some forum may have gotten to you. I doubt highly you will hear a lot of hiss and if you do it may be something else.
There's always a range of speakers of various types, etc, I like, but I'm guessing there's a budget point when a person is better off spending money on room treatments.
I think room treatments should always be an option.
Infrasonic subs in single Hz are still very expensive
Great explanation 👍👍.
Hi Matt, just out of curiosity what kind of comprise would you get by offsetting good LCRs with good subs, instead of higher priced towers? For example, if you were to use Perlisten S5M or S4B with a pair of D212s (crossed over at 100ish) instead of the S7T with the same subs? This seems to be a way to comprise price with less negative effect (maybe slightly lower SPL), or am I thinking of this wrong? Thanks in advance.
It really depends on the speakers. All home theaters should involve bass management in my opinion. But…Perlisten S7T speakers have other benefits beyond bass. Their directivity control is much better. Distortion is lower. Also much more efficient. This is all unrelated to bass management.
So S7T is always better than S5M or S4B. But that might not be true or every speaker company.
Is there any benefit what so ever to HT having towers capable of reference at 30hz apposed to small speakers only capable to 60hz, from a bass management perspective is capable speakers down to 30hz an over kill or is it better to have towers capable of 30hz even if crossed at 80hz to subs???
Your SMSL still sounds like a 2D wall of sound. Try an R2R dac from Denafrips Pontus II or higher, or Holo Audio and you'll hear 3D realisim.
I myself have the Arendal 1723 S Towers which are about $3K a pair. For sure speakers that are 2x-3x the price are better but I doubt if they are 2x-3x better. So ia a $100k speaker 10x better than a $10k speaker?
I think this is really what the question is asking...does a $100K stereo setup sound 10x better than one of the best stereo setups that you can purchase for $10K in a room the size of an average living room for listening to music with average acoustical properties and if not then at what price point do you only gain small improvements for considerably more cost. I can't really see that the question was answered in this context.
@@icehockeyhouse Agree...you're probably only getting at most a 3x improvement while paying for 10x the price.
Hey Matt! Are the bigger ones like a Genelec S360 or Neumann KH420 really short of output for like 3m listening distance?
I think you would probably be ok at 2-3 meters. As I said, we’ve just seen some intense limiting.
Take for example the KH-80 that Erin just reviewed. It’s rated at 108dB max SPL. Yet his sweeps suggest the limiters kick in aggressively with a 100dB signal at 1 meter. If 6-8dB is the difference between that published max SPL and reality (but remember there are many types of max SPL, it’s likely nobody lied but that they use a dynamic peak measurement), then 122-8=114dB. That puts 3 meters at 104.5dB. I would call that acceptable but on the edge with no headroom. Now…we will get some headroom from the room, so I wouldn’t be against this. But it’s the limit. I sit at 4 meters so in my room this doesn’t work.
If you go to their website you can actually better see what’s going on. The 122 number is the max SPL in a room with room loading and 3% THD. The number is a derived number from a free space number. When using performance parameters to choose gear we don’t use derived values like that because that is a rough average estimate based on really old research into how much gain a room gives to the noise of things like a toaster. Not a theater or studio.
Their free space max SPL is 116dB from 100hz to 6khz, and with weighted pink noise, it’s 95dB. And again, we don’t know which of these is a better approximation of what 105dB reference means. Per the SMPTE standard, it would be that 95dB number, but SMPTE was also relying on the need for headroom and adopted M noise as well.
Which is all to say, I don’t believe these have enough output for medium to large theaters. They probably have enough output for a small home theater with a 3M or less listening distance. Really….less. However, with more testing of the speaker in theater conditions, it’s possible I would feel differently. I do have a Genelec project coming up that will give me an opportunity to see what is happening.
@@PoesAcoustics My point is that I also do not know how the max SPL for the Perlisten speakers are derived. Th R series uses a silk dome tweeter for the upper high range and two silk domes until 1.2 KHz. I just cant believe that they are able to produce significantly more output than a S360 with its compression driver or a KH420 with its midrange dome and capable tweeter. My interpretation was always that 105 db means dynamic headroom so you would need peak power. Also I suppose that THX is using a bandlimited like 80HZ - 8KHz signal to derive this. I really do not see a way how a 2.8mm silk dome of the Perlisten R series would be able to output 105 db continuous sweeps at a listening distance of 4m above like 3Khz (where only the middle tweeter is playing). In Erins review of the S4 you could also see that above 3KHz they began to compress a little at 102 db. They were really good in that regard but not better but still shy of 105 db at 4m. I guess we can only compare them when measured apples to apples. :)
@@steakhoux you do know because it’s articulated on the website. The spec sheet indicated that it is 116dB from 100hz to 20khz at less than 3%thd. It’s a similar but wider bandwidth test than is used by Neumann.
THX isn’t forthcoming with their specs. They likely use a room gain factor similar to the derived value used by Neumann.
The R7T and KH420 likely have similar max output. The reason why one is ok and the other isn’t is that both are at their limits, but one gently compresses and distortion rises gradually. The Neumann will act like a light switch and just go into protection. It pulls power, causing a dramatic rise in distortion and extreme compression. So that speaker needs more margin to be safely used.
@@steakhoux I should also add, I don’t use the Perlistens in such big rooms either. I would not use them at a 6.5m listening distance. I know THX Dominus indicated that works. But my own design approach is a lot more conservative. My limit for those speakers is 4-4.5 meters. By 5 meters I’ll have already moved onto a different brand/design with higher limits. I would want continuous free space output to be 125dB.
@@PoesAcoustics Ah ok, that's understandable. To be fair I never saw the red light indicating compression of the KH420 even when listening to some trailers very loud (I sit about 3.5m away from them). But I am also to one that is listening very loud in general (which I also was reminded when I watched Dune 2 in a cinema). I would also suppose that high SLP is not so crucial for above like 8KHz since there is little program material that is using the full headroom in that area. I would mostly think that the 100-300Hz region is mostly limiting since according to some spectral analyses of movies. The midrange maybe but those speaker are able to deliver the highest SPL there.
Great points Mr.Poe. Some people like to make their Honda as fast as a Lamborghini, some people rather just buy a Lamborghini. Then there are those Tesla people 😂 All cool in their own right , just a matter of taste, different ultimate goals.
Agreed. The end-use scenario matters. A Lamborghini would be nice but I'd rather commute over pot-holed roads in a Honda. Likewise, a six-figure audio system would be near useless to me given the constraints of my listening room. 😊
This actually raises a point that I think is quite valid. I remember an issue of compact sports car magazine that covered an annual SCC competition. I forget what it was called, but they tested the cars against each other and announced a winner. It had dimensions of performance which included gas mileage and comfort, along with track performance. One year a Ferrari was entered. I believe it’s only modification was wheels. 1000hp Supras, GT-R’s, and other crazy tuned up cars were also in the mix. I imagine a Civic probably was as well. The Ferrari won. It was one of the fastest cars across the board, but was substantially easier to live with. More comfortable, better street performance, more livable. Yeah it costs a fortune. But it proves the point that you can’t get there from here. You can’t take these lesser cars and make them better than a purpose built sports car overall. You might have a faster track time. A faster 0-60. But something will give. It didn’t surprise me. At the time my dad has a BMW Z3 and I had a tuned up wrx. My car should have been faster. It likely has faster track times. It’s 0-60 time was faster. But it was totally unlivable. The ride would knock your fillings out. It was loud. Hot. And it wasn’t unique to that car. My prior car was a Volvo 850 turbo R with the touring car coil over suspension from Ohlins, turbo upgrade, engine tune, exhaust, etc. The more I upgraded it the worse it got. My dad’s Z3 was simply a more enjoyable car.
Same is true with speakers. Not every expensive speaker is better or even any good. But the best of them make good use of that money. And lesser speakers can’t be made to equal them by simply adding subwoofers and EQ.
@@PoesAcousticsYour matter-of-fact style is refreshing, keep it up.👍
How do better speakers sound better past a certain point (price) if the room stays equally bad in terms of acoustics? I have $250 speakers for my LCR. They have even sound power and they sound pretty good but I'm not sure if upgrading them would be worth it if I don't handle the acoustics of my room first.
In most cases power over powers or Trumps bad acoustics. Think Concerts. On the question of your speakers now, that's wonderful you are content with them. EQ making them even more targeted, even better. But " better speakers" could very much make your prior good experience feel like you had a muffle over the ear. Let's talk more about this
To better help you understand your upgrade. Try not to sideways upgrade which can happen when there are so many options. Understand what you like to hear when using a speaker setup and try to build around that. Some like bass, punch, dynamics, or even just brightness is fine. There is a position for everyone and it can be intimidating or even frustrating but there can be a pathway for upgrades for you and it will be better but let's establish what you like.
Even with bad acoustics, a loudspeaker with all things equal, but with lower distortion, should be audibly better.
Two points. First, keep in mind that the question I was asked was not about room acoustics. So I answered it assuming that was constant.
Second, just because a room is bad doesn’t mean better speakers aren’t better. Their attributes still can be heard and you still can enjoy their benefits. $250 is such a low price point that it’s unlikely to have that food of a response or great output. At such a low price point, there will be compromises.
I am curious what you have for $250 that you find so acceptable. While there are certainly good and enjoyable speakers at lower price points, I’ve struggled to find much at those lower price points.
@@PoesAcousticshey, Matt. Thanks for the response.
The speakers I have for my LCR are Polk XT20. The reason I picked them is because they have pretty good ERDI for the price point I was looking at (under $500). They replaced a $80 pair of speakers and they are definitely better but still not perfect. They are pretty sibilant and they have a weird 800hz resonance. I got a pair for $250 because they were on sale but I think usually they’re like $400 or something. I just can’t imagine putting a $10,000 pair of speakers into a tin can of a room and expecting that much better results but I’m definitely not experienced enough to know any better.
I bought the NAD C298 because it has the NAD M23's Eigentakt:
1) it's less $
2) it has more features like adjustable knob gain, RCA loopout for 2 subwoofers, trigger output to my 2 subwoofers
I want the clarity. I add richness via my Cardas Parsec RCA interconnect cables.
My video ua-cam.com/video/ncwCopnHJqA/v-deo.html
I upgraded from a Parasound 2125v2 (already sounds really good).
Apple Music
aesthetics cost the most, output is second most expensive, performance is third.
There is some truth to this. Maintaining all three can be quite costly. You can have high output at modest cost. But you will lose fidelity. You can have high fidelity at low cost. But you won’t also have high output. You can have high fidelity and high output at a modest cost but it won’t be pretty. If you want all three, pony up.
And with Aesthetics, something can look good but be cheaply made. Real luxury goods are often built using far more expensive materials. Those materials can dramatically raise the cost of a product.
@@PoesAcoustics very true! truly blessed is the soul that prefers utilitarian aesthetics in the audio hobby
I still think between 7 and 10k is the sweet spot, you have to research lesser known brands that offer better value. Like tekton or spatial audio will still measure flat and play loud enough to destroy your ear drums if that's what you're in to. The money you save you spend on some premium subwoofers and it's gonna outperform whichever 50+k speaker you can think of.
Totally agree. That price is the sweet spot.
Always enjoy your content. Keep it up!
Thoughtful post - I think you did a really nice job of getting to the quick of the question asked of you. Unfortunately, the notion of diminshing returns will make some misunderstand and chafe against what you said.
Hey Mathew, where do we submit the questions you use for these videos? I would love to hear a video where you talk about why you think Projectors are still better than TV’s like you mentioned in your other video. Thanks!
If you go to my channel page, go under tab “community”
I heard the Perlisten next to b&w 802 and Sasha V’s and price/ quality the 7 is very good. I decided to go for the wilson audio’s because they had more ‘liquidity’ , 3D , more body, more or everything… and they better should for double the price. The 802 was to harsh for me in the high s and less ‘integraded’ across the frequencies ( although i had older 802N s and loved them) but agaln, Perlisten did a great job the 7t s . Listened with Gryphon essence amplification.
Great video Mathew! I think this is a very good analysis of the tradeoffs and compromises speaker manufacturers make. And thanks for bringing enjoyment into the equation! In my case I have a smaller room, and am willing to sacrifice output since I never listen at reference levels. This, combined with some DIY subs, MSO EQ, and room treatment, has allowed me to put together a system that provides a bandwidth and spectral flatness that pleases me and impresses my guests at what I consider to be a reasonable price point.
So my Bose are good right?
They are the most real sounding speakers you ever heard!
Focal Grande Utopia EM Evo vs. Perlisten Audio S7t Limited Edition Tower Speaker.
Can't we deploy the Ultra Evolution Pinnacle Speaker at half the cost with similar traits you talk about? Loudness and timbre?
I have a pair of Scala Utopias , the little brother of the Grande Utopias. They sound great and can play loud without distortion. , but they need EQ to sound neutral. The Utopias have been” voiced” a certain way .
I suspect the S7t will outperform the Grande Utopia in every technical parameter , except bass extension .
The simple answer is NO. With everything in audio, there is a point where money only buys more, not better. Its easy to see within the product range of any speaker manufacturer. Look at the top models. A few models down will incorporate many of the same drivers and design, just in a smaller size. With today's inflation, $10k might not be the that point of diminishing returns, but thatvpricr point could be $15k or $20k. I've been out of the industry too long to know. The reason for my NO answer is you can buy equal quality, but less output for less money, but you arent going to get better performance with equal ouput for less money within the same product line, even if using subs. If comparing products by different brands, then personal preference rules the day.
Great talk. The hobby mention is important. I still am excited for when I get a dedicated room to try mirroring L800s for Fronts and rears.
Will it work? I dunno, but if I get the chance to experiment I will. And if it doesn't and I just need to disconnect the SDA cable and have it in the traditional layout placement for rears? It'll work just fine.
...Or fears of dirac issues makes me avoid rear L800s altogether lol. We'll see once I get a house
I am a speaker DIY guy since 25 years. With the best/most expensive chassis/X-over parts/enclosure, there is not possible to get over 10k/1 piece. If we calculate 5x the parts price there is no no argument for speakers over 50k. In my opinion speakers above 100k there is just esoteric.
First…that isn’t true. It’s easily possible to exceed those prices with the best parts. As a Diyer, you don’t have access to such parts as they are custom made by the manufacturers. You can’t buy Perlistens drivers. They make their own. You can’t buy the drivers used by a number of top manufacturers. Enclosures can also easily get that expensive with more exotic materials. Make it out of machined aluminum, it will get costly quick.
More importantly, that isn’t the question asked. The question wasn’t $100k speakers. It was $100k system.