Great video as always! However, I'd like to challenge your argument in this video with a question that I think deserves a video on its own. What if people are not listening at reference level? Does not the perceived loudness of different frequencies then change so that a greater boost in bass (and treble) is actually needed to maintain accuracy? To my understanding that is what research has shown, and that is why we have an international standard that specifies how to correct for that (ISO 226:2023). To my understanding, mixing engineers take equal-loudness-level contours into account when mixing so that the mix sounds balanced at reference level. But again, most of us don't listen at reference level, many in the community have attested to that. Audyssey's dynamic EQ is designed to correct for that using equal-loudness-level contours, i.e. boosting the bass and treble as you lower the volume below reference level. Audyssey themselves also claim to have done research where they have found that perceived loudness drops off faster behind us than in front of us (ISO 226:2023 only deals with sounds coming from straight ahead), wherefore Dynamic EQ also boosts the level of the surround channels. Despite the fact that we have an international standard (which certainly does not come to fruition by chance), I often hear people in the home cinema community reject features like Dynamic EQ because they believe that it is a gimmick that should not be used if you want accuracy and creator's intent. At the same time, they admit that they never listen at reference level, but rather at -10 to -25 db below reference. Personally, I have calibrated my system using OCA's AudysseyOne script which does a fantastic job and sounds amazing at reference level, but when I listen at -40 dB with my family, Dynamic EQ is an absolute must for me as it does a fantastic job at restoring the the bass (and treble) that you get at higher listening levels. So Matt, please explain to me (and the rest of the community), should we use loudness compensation features like Dynamic EQ if we listen below reference? If not, can you give us an educated answer as to why, because no one who bashes on Dynamic EQ seems to know what they are talking about. Ps. For reference, here's a video where Jeff Clark (former Director of Software Engineering at Audyssey) explains Dynamic EQ and the reasoning behind it (at 11 min 30 seconds in): ua-cam.com/video/XdBSDSASUnk/v-deo.htmlsi=6Yq-q5XFUfeTdwBf&t=690 Thank you!
Finally the voice of reason. I listen to a lot of audio/video pods and lately all people want to talk about is bass and subs.I live in a condo and my theater has two 10 inch RSL Speedwoofers which provides wonderful tactile bass.I cant shake the walls and floor being in a condo but I dont want to. I was told years ago that when setting volume on subs you just raise volume until you just start to hear bass in your speakers and then stop.Always works for me.
Do keep in mind that bass IS really important. There is a difference between bass being important and bass being too loud. Bass needs to be loud enough and capable of all the dynamic range of the recordings at all frequencies. But bass shouldn’t be 10-20dB louder than it’s supposed to be, that actually hurts the dynamic range issue majorly.
I appreciate everything in this video, this is exactly my philosophy and I have 4 very capable subs in each corner. Lots of headroom and dialed in as the creator intended!! To each their own, but the balance is perfect for me. Thank you Matt!
2:30 I think it's only partly useful as a comparison. True, it's 'coloring the bass' but your ears will actually hurt at those level differences at the upper end of the spectrum. There's no physical giveaway like that to the average user at the lower end of the scale. Overall, the tricky part is a lot of standards are the consensus of researched mass group's opinions layered on top of sound mixes that are again an interpreted opinion of how something should sound. For example, if every movie was mixed like Blade Runner 2049, you'd probably see a lot more systems with less boosting on the low end. Another item is, some people don't like reference volume, it's just too loud for them (It often is for me), but the mixes themselves assume bass mixed with those levels in mind. And... as you know... as you turn the volume down, the bass disproportionately drops off from a perception level. So up goes the boosted bass. (And good luck with stereo mixed music, the wild wild west of do whatever you want with your levels.) I thought the salt analogy was great, and I'm glad you addressed tactile at the end! EDIT ADD-ON: Naturally now that I've read through the comments, everything I just wrote has already been brought up elsewhere. Apologies! ^_^
I used to be a Bassaholic with a +6dB house curve. Once I got a better sub the first thing I noticed was that it was less boomy and it took me a while to get used to. But even with a better sub, I belatedly realised that in my room I have to turn the bass down (when using BEQ) so that the bass & LFE stays within my listening area. Otherwise it reverberates throughout the room and I'm guessing out to the neighbours too. Now I'm a Bassaholic, but I get my fix by using a sub with a transducer (TR) to get the same (actually better) impact than I would have had with the sub by itself. I can't speak for people with multiple subs, but this works well for me.
I think there’s two factors to bass, there’s the sound itself,and then the tactile feeling from bass. One of the best things I ever did was add crowsons, where I can adjust the sound separate from the shake. It’s been great.
Setting the bass level is challenging because older movies/music have less bass content than the newer material. I use the bass tone control to tweak as needed.
That’s a great approach. That is similar to my preset method. The only issue with tone controls on a surround system is that it may not apply it like a target curve to all the speakers. And it’s not just old vs new. In general there is a great deal of variability.
Good video, about time someone made a point of this. I really don't understand why people tend to want so much bass. Yes, I have twelve Ultimax 18" drivers in Infinite Baffle to handle 40 Hz down but I don't do this so I can run the bass 20 dB hot, I do it so each driver only has to work a little bit, with just a little excursion and very little power. At the front of the room, eight woofers in groups of 4 are powered by a single Emotiva XPA channel with just one of the 2 ohm voice coils on each, all in series for an 8 ohm load. Not sure what the all channel driven power is on the XPA at 8 ohms but I'm guessing it's providing an available 60 watts per woofer. The four woofers at the back are not connected yet but will be shortly after I get back from Japan this weekend. They will be in pairs also using just one 2 ohm coil from each in series for a 4 ohm load. These will also be driven by a single XPA channel driving 4 ohms so maybe they have 120+ watts available. These woofers are all attic mounted Infinite baffle and they are only operating from around 10 Hz to 40 Hz so very little power is required. The resonance peak in the impedance is right in the middle of this range so the actual power is significantly less than what you would calculate based on voltage across the leads and an assumed 4 or 8 ohm impedance. It's still way more power than needed. People talk about having 1000 or 2000 watts or 2.1 Gigiwatt subwoofers but that's just not necessary. Besides, the power output capability of the subwoofer amplifier is in no way a description of the subwoofers acoustic output capability. In my system, 60 watts per driver is more than enough, just a few watts to each driver just about shakes the house apart. Especially for Home Theater, I don't mind running the bottom end a couple dB hot but that's about it. I've heard systems with the bass at least 10 dB hot or more and too me it just destroys the overall sound quality of the system. If that's what you really like, I suppose it's ok but are you sure that it really is what you like??? There have been converts, people that thought they liked 10+ dB hot bass but after some time listening to a properly calibrated system, discovered they couldn't stand the hot bass anymore.
When I received the measurement data of the Trinnov ISE demo room, I looked at the bass response, extension, etc. I also looked at the distortion. I forget the exact figure, but it was something like .5% THD at 20hz at 110dB in room. Take a normal system with 1-2 even 4 18” subs and you will be a heck of a lot higher than that. There are some really cold advantages to having a ton of subs, it’s not just about output. That headroom means the system isn’t working hard most of the time. Take my short on infrasonic death. My subs are working hard on that track. Yes it reproduces it, but there is so much excursion happening to do it that there is air and mechanical noise. If I had four more 18’s, it would play the same volume much cleaner. That’s a good thing.
I’m beginning to agree with this concept. I think it’s similar to how people can be initially turned off by accurate PQ as opposed to the vivid mode they’re used to. I was one of those people wayyyy back in the day.
I totally agree with this. I don't like the feeling of when bass vibrates your ears and body however if you are going to do it make sure it's at the really low frequencies i.e. sub 40hz just to get that visceral impact if you like that.
I liked this analogy. I've worked as a Server in mostly upscale restaurants through my adult life. Your comparison to salt strikes a chord with me. I strongly dislike having salt and pepper on the table. A competent chef will prepare a dish with the proper amount. I'd of course never deny anyones request for anything they'd like to add, but my hope is that at the very least they'd taste it first. I find a surprising number of people will ask for s&p before even trying it and honestly I've come to wonder if it's maybe an indication of irrationality in someone, lol? I guess I've spent too much time thinking on that one, lol.
This is actually a good point. What inspired this video was a conversation with my friend and colleague Peter Aylett. Peter mentioned that he believes it is our job to give clients what they need. That we shouldn’t expect them to know what they want because they just won’t have our depth of experiment and expertise. We know what good is and what is possible. We also know how to achieve it. Most people can’t and don’t. That’s why they come to us. So he was disagreeing with my willingness to give the client S&P to use this analogy. I think he makes a fair point. Most of the top calibrators I know don’t give a lot of options, if any, to clients. They tune it to be good and leave it at that. Forces the person to learn to listen to a correctly tuned system that way. Now my counter argument fits your analogy. You are the server. You can’t control the quality of food the chef prepares. And he can’t always control the quality of ingredients. So what happens if a bum dish is served but it can be saved by a little extra salt? With music, a lot of music varies greatly and it’s not all balanced correctly. I mean, you should see what passes as studio monitors these days in major studios. So sometimes you need to give options to help offset the problems coming in. Hopefully that isn’t the norm.
You mentioned floating floor. I thought this concept was straight forward, till I googled floating floor for home theater and saw a huge range of floating floors. I would be interested to your take on this.
Thank you for being so level headed and open minded, some You tubers are very preachy and think their "opinion" is gospel. Great topic by the way! I use Pure Direct mode on my equipment, and I build my speakers and subs myself, I design the cross-over so the speaker is as neutral as I can, with the goal to not need tone controls. It is difficult to achieve a one setting for all situations for a system like that, and I am of the thinking that you barely realize a sub is on until the REALLY low stuff hits. My subs high pass is set to 45Hz (which I think is a bit high sometimes) as the main speakers are extremely capable. I believe movie theaters are guilty of too much bass as well, and fidelity... don't get me started, but this is what many might be chasing to have in their home! I'm curious, would you know roughly how many Db's hot an average movie theater is?
Very nice explanation 👌 My question is how to calculate the subwoofer size with respect to room volume, since low freequencies create the pressure level is very difficult to control/treated especially in small or medium size rooms people buying big size(15"/18") subwoofer for medium rooms and they can't achieve their expectations.
I use 4, 6 and 8 db boost below 120Hz as targets for my system. Depending in the Content. Music mostly 8. Movies 6 and when listening reference levels 4. Your analogy with food is good. Sugar would be an even better example. It is really hard to recalibrate you taste to less sugar especially in drinks.
Thack you so much for this intelligent approach to big bass. I’ve had the opportunity to play with enough woofers to overload my space with bass. Not a desireable place to be. I’m a 2 channel guy, reformed ex-HT’r. The desires of the 2 channel listener is not what the bass heads are doing. We want balanced proper bass, not exaggerated presence that impacts the overall balance of sound.
I wish I could hear what a probably calibrated room would sound like.Like Mathew Pose or a Grimani system without spending a fortune and hoping I will like it !! I know what I like is it reference or not?
What are your thoughts on how a sealed or ported sub pressurise/energise a room? I often see people report more tactile feedback from a ported sub and a different sensation of pressurisation on the ears 🤔 If you had an equal db output of material playing back on ported then sealed in the same frequency operating range of the subs (I.e around and above port tune) do you feel there’s any difference?
At the same SPL levels, no I don’t think there would be any difference. For many people, the ported sub is going to have a lot more output. More output means more visceral bass. After many years of trying to get ported subs right. Many many custom subwoofer packages. Many manufactured subs. I came to the conclusion that sealed subs is better overall and the SPL deficiency is best made up with more subs.
I have 4 different Harman curves saved in my HTP-1. +4db, +6db, +8db, & +10db curves. I prefer +8db for most content, but sometimes I will drop it down to the +6db or +4db curve, if the +8db curve is too much. +10db is hardly ever used in my system. It’s important to note that not all content is created equal. I like what I like.🤷♂️
I'm glad you mentioned this about bass. I find it can really confuse seperation in sound making objects or detail sound less definitive. And what some recognise as warm sounds muddier to me.. there is a way to get dynamic punch without the boom. It's alot of experimenting though
Great video Matt! I love bass and I consider myself a bassaholic. However I like my bass clean and tight. I'm running 4, 10in subs in my 5.1.2 setup in a 16'x13'x8' open concept living room that opens to the kitchen and main entry way . It Sounds awesome. I'm using a house curve that I like and fell in love since I EQ'd and applied it to my miniDSP after learning it from Home Theater Gurus. The Subs house curve is a 10 dB gradual rise starting at 100Hz and and leveling out at 30Hz. Sounds awesome. The lowest I listen to my system is -10 MV and this house curve provides the chest thump I love at the level and consistent to up to -20 MV. I have plenty of headroom and never had clipping issues. The room correction software that I use makes my system sound cohesive and big. The bass is tight and it blends very well with my speakers. I cannot tell where bass is coming from in the room and I get good seat to seat consistency(4 seat row). With all that said I think I'm running my subs 10dB hot and I like how it sounds. I guess it all comes down to personal preference.
It's different when building a new construction, because the individual can determine the ceiling height and flooring. Most people have houses already built and basements have 7.5ft ceiling over a concrete foundation. Once, they add flooring etc... it becomes 7 - 6.5ft. What's the best way to circumvent this issue and get tactial bass. I assume adding a near field sub intergrated would solve the issue. That might be the reason some people run their subs +12db hot IF they're in the basement. If not that's freaking crazy 😂
I would argue there are more flavors of the problem than just turning up the bass too much. I think 2 points missed or glossed over are that many are looking for a level of bass intensity, which you mentioned referring to tactile feel. There are also significant differences in listening levels of many based on preference, acoustics, and speaker/system dynamic capability. In many cases the bass is at reference level and they are listening at -20 to -10 dB below reference as that is where their speakers and acoustics sound comfortable, and they are adjusting for both loudness effects from listening at lower levels, and trying to make up for the bass they aren't feeling as much as they want. I would argue that many of the bassaholics need to turn up or upgrade their main speakers to provide the level of detail to support the bass levels they are after. Just as many have limitations with acoustics where typical reference levels become too noisy and loud. As I recall Floyd Toole mentioning in some interviews, their research for the Synthesis systems found that differing LF room acoustics such as size and rigidity would result in as much as a 10dB variation in level to get the similar perceived bass level. The caveat being that they likely had mixed conditions of floor construction and makeup.
Fair points Mark. I think I covered the tactile part ok but I didn’t think to talk about what level people listen at or the dynamic limits of the speakers. You and I have talked about that before. I have talked about how I believe many speakers simply don’t have the dynamic range they need. You and I certainly agree on that. I really believe that many who feel that reference levels is too loud like my are reacting to compression and distortion. Not an actual feeling of being too loud. That is certainly my experience.
Hah when you came to my house your preferred curve was the 12dB hot curve. Which I made as a joke thinking you would not like it. Michael, you might be a bassaholic. But it is ok!
I have had 3 8” subs with tactile transducers and I recently bought 2 15s thinking I would no longer need the bass Shakers and boy was I wrong. So obviously, I’m going to hook them back up but it almost makes me wish I upgraded to nicer tactile transducers instead of the subs.
How dare you sir. What am I supposed to do with these 4 24s now!? I've definitely noticed the clarity issues you mention here. With DLBC I have a +12, +8, and +3 profile I switch between. I love the sound of +12 with most music and practically all movies (even those with music) but occasionally I do need to tone things down a bit. I suspect this upper bass boost that causes clarity issues is frequently to blame when people say room correction sounds worse than having it turned off - what do you think?
Could be. As someone else noted, 30hz to 80hz is a sensitive area. Actually 80hz to 200hz is a very sensitive area because it changes and colors make voices a lot. So you really need to be careful with the target curves.
3:40 - I think you mis-spoke on the range? 20hz to 20khz? Fully agree with your main point though. I plan to set different dirac presets for different levels of base because of this. Thank you for the great video!
I think I said that right. So the work Harman did on the natural rise of a speaker in a room vs anechoic found a rise of 1dB per octave. So 10 octaves is 10dB. No?
@@PoesAcoustics Ah, got it. I misinterpreted. I thought you said the db increase for bass was supposed to range from 20hz to 20kHz, which is a pretty big range outside the range of bass. Now I understand what you mean, you're saying the db difference between 20 hz and 20 kHz. Makes perfect sense. Thank you!
There is actually. Keep in mind we don’t EQ using equal loudness curved. If we did, we would be boosting the bass at 20hz by 50+dB. I have not seen any data to suggest that is a good plan. However we can use the work that used statistical modeling to extend equal loudness curves and threshold curves into the infrasonics. This would allow us to gauge how much boost is needed. Problem is you need exponentially more displacement for every octave you go down. So if you need 6dB more output at 10hz than at 20hz, that is 4x more subwoofers (assuming they are sealed subs they even have infrasonic output of any significance).
Thanks for the good discussion Matt. How do equal loudness curves factor into this? If you're saying a proper bass boost might be 4-6db, assuming that is at 85db reference level correct? What if the listening level is 75db or even 70db? Is it just as simple as adding additional boost for the amount of db you are under reference?
@@PoesAcoustics Right, but how much is the question. I found some sites that were suggesting +5db boost for every 10db under reference? If that's true your 6db suggestion +5db would mean my +10-12db boost seems right for 75db listening.
I live on the ground floor of an apartment block. So, when it comes to bass, I have to be respectful of my living environment. My lounge/listening space is 19 feet long, 17 feet wide and 8 feet high. Solid concrete flooring built on block and beam work. Solid concrete ceiling between me and the apartment above. Plasterboard internal walls. I’m not into home theatre, I’m a 2 channel man. My 2 substancial floorstanders are each equipped with 5 165mm low frequency drivers with an in room response of 22hz. I do use 3 10 inch subs, to achieve an even bass distribution. These subs are barely ticking over with the volume/intensity level of the front 2 subs set to 4 of a potential 40 and the sub placed at the back of the room, which is a down firing sub, set to 6 out of a potential 40 volume. Those subs just give a slight augmentation to my floorstander’s excellent bass response. I would describe the sonic character I’ve created as, balanced. I don’t aim to shake the room, but when I’m listening to large orchestral performances at 85db plus peaking at 106db, the room does shake. I can only listen at those volumes when I know my neighbour is not in. There are times when certain tracks could potentially benefit from the bass being augmented by a couple of extra db, but I’m a set and forget chap, so live with it assuming those tracks were mastered not to be overly bassy.
Random question = the scariest sound I've ever heard was an angry tiger. Turns out their growl goes as low as 16Hz. Is there a way of getting a recording that goes that low, and playing it in a home theater system?
Of course. Why not. Condenser mics with no high pass filter and a dc coupled mic preamp will record down to 5hz or lower. Just need to make sure your gear isn’t high passed at all. If you are asking if I have such a thing, I do not.
Yh, you are right, in that the upper bass ruins the detail of the higher frequencies, and makes voices sound too bassy, which I hate. But I love to FEEEEL the bass, feel the T-Rex footsteps in jurassic park. So I whack up the subwoofer as much as i can. But then that problem occurs. What would be good, is to have a system that recognises explosions, Trex stomps, etc, and separates them from voices etc... so we can have explosions etc super high, but still have the voices with normal bass.
If I understand correctly, you're suggesting the room curve should only be boosted below 50 Hz. If the crossover point for the LCR and surrounds is 100 Hz, would it just be a gentle slope down toward the 100 Hz point? A couple of diagrams would go a long way towards giving us pointers, but I understand this can't all be mapped out on a post-it note. BTW, I just started Floyd Toole's book on Sound Reproduction - trying to read it cover to cover without skipping to today's discussion. Thanks for all the great videos!
No no. Bass will always and should always have a rise. Not at 50hz. I am not sure where that confusion is coming from. Below 50hz you can give more rose. And below 30hz a lot more. But I am not suggesting flat to 50hz.
@@PoesAcoustics Understood, realizing text is not the best method for communication, but that is all this venue offers. Not thinking flat, but a more gentle rise than the great number of people promoting a "target curve" with 5-10 dB of boost starting around 80-100 Hz . Beginning the room correction needs to be tailored to specific speakers and room. Will still re-evaluate current room correction and try to hold off overdoing the bass boost. The great thing is the ability to make adjustments and have some presets to test with.
Hah I think even Scott would admit to his extreme bass addiction. It’s akin to your buddy bringing a case of beer, insisting he will only have a few, and dancing half naked in your dining table just after dinner is served. Slurring the words to Mama Mia.
@@PoesAcoustics he’s the dealer trying to sell you more stuff, not the guy leading the bassaholics anonymous meeting. I think he’s up to…what, 18-18” JTRs?
Issue is human hearing is different than microphone. Most people will not listen anywhere near reference levels and your bass has to be way boosted to even be fully flat audible down to hearing limit 16--17hz ish.
My argument is specifically based on psychoacoustics. Not microphone measurment. You are referring to the equal loudness curves. We also don’t EQ to the equal loudness curves. They are simply a guide for offsetting bass and treble levels as volume is turned down. But we have to start with neutral first.
Makes sense, build a more efficient room to get the visceral effect your after sooner rather than boosting the bass to the point it’s unbalanced, ultimately that’s what we are all after is the tactical effects, on concrete floors you don’t get that till you are +8db or even higher with less efficient subs, a major misconception with in the industry. Great content keep it rolling!
By "floating floor" do you mean engineered hardwood/laminate/LVP over a thin foam pad (a typical residential floating floor installation)? I'm planning to build a home theater/listening room in my basement with a concrete floor. I was planning to put in thick padding and carpet, but now I'm wondering if I should go with a floating solid floor - maybe with a large rug on top.
That is not what I meant. I meant two layers of 3/4” T&G on top of 1” or more foam, rubber, silicone, or metal springs. Of course air springs are the best when money is no object. In this regard a floating floor refers to having the floor in the room acoustically float over the solid base floor. It is used for sound isolation, but had the side benefit of making tactile bass much better.
I guess in the end it's really up to what the individual prefers. I very much understand what you're saying however room size does play a great deal in your whole dynamics of mid-range and bass add volume are what some make call reference level however in the end we all like to have good sound now you have to admit you pulled up to that annoying car at a red light and the car is actually basing so hard it's shaking stuff in your car so yes you can overdo anything however not having acoustical setups correct and not having enough Bass the correct way can all play a factor. But to get back to my point Everyone likes what they like me personally yes I like enough space to wear if you set something down on the coffee table you may find it in the floor throughout the movie that may be a bit much for some, however for me I love a lot of bass and I have tried to cut down just in balancing out my setup I have external emotiva amplifiers for my highs ,and mid-range but I love a good bass sound..
So is the Dirac default curve/ slanted line of 1-2db up in the bass and 1-2db down in the treble an ideal way to recalibrate your sense of system standards?
Well keep in mind that any sub could be an infrasonic sub. That term just means it has the ability to reproduce infrasonic. As long as there is enough displacement and no highpass filter, any sealed subwoofer will reproduce infrasonics. A pair of sealed 18” subs can be infrasonic subs. A pair of 10” subs can be too, but at much lower output. If you are asking me which will wow you more, probably the subs. But both are part of getting the creative intent of the original content.
Excellent video! Could you perhaps delve a little deeper into the floating floor concept in another video? I'm sure many of us would find it informative
Great video. I run about 5dB hot in the deep bass, a bit more in the subsonic stuff. The salt analogy is a great one. I appreciate sealed sub systems with a moderate amount of bass that have the detail and subtle authority.
@@PoesAcoustics We all know auto eq can set the bass too low (in level). But aside from that, I usually adjust the LFE to -5db because with the bass management from the other speaker and the LFE channel on at the same time it just gets too loud and I generally turn the subs up a couple db since non-LFE sources can sound weak even with bass management. That being said, assume you Calibrated your system and you boosted your subwoofer by +5db, wouldn't you want to then reduce the LFE level by -5db to compensate? I know bass management and LFE are not the same but the LFE channel is being fed to the subwoofer and when you adjust the gain on the sub youre also adjusting the LFE level and possibly throwing out of calibration.
I'm definitely a ridiculous bass hound. Especially after you hear a REALLY GOOD sub, like when I went to JTR's - holy hell, that is not something you can "unhear"
i think that in the end of the discussion You've "hit the nail on the head" ,The main "problem" is that we as bass lovers are looking for the tactical experience (sometimes like what we love at the movie Theater), and our way to get there is probably not the best...Therefore, I would be happy if you would expand more on how this can be achieved in more successful ways other than building a floating floor?
This was asked so many times I think I need to cover it again. Do look at my older build videos though. I did cover this in an older video. But yes I’ll do something fresh.
in home theater I find that bass in the 30-80 Hz, you have to be very careful with. if to high, it can mess up everything talked about here, but also turn the constant drone that is just to much and distracts from everything else. its just too much. sub 30Hz however i boost to the moon. I have the headroom, it makes everyone that listens to it smile, but more importantly it makes me smile. I am a bassoholic, but with refined pallet, or at least that is what i tell myself.
Would putting seats on a 3/4" plywood board with some 1.25" isolators under it be enough to provide tactile feedback or would need to make a small riser platform?
Kick drums and a variety of instruments just don't sound good if the bass is extremely exaggerated. I think if you can get it to play deeper, it often makes a better difference than just louder. Sometimes the issue I think is also just not having enough power/drivers for the bass so you lack what you perceive as dynamics because if you don't boost it, it seems soft. And as you said, if you turn it up and you had to boost it so much it will hit the limits early.
I had this same conversation with Ed Mullins. Guys don’t have enough bass headroom and turn it up to compensate. What they need is more/better subs. Not louder. Those aren’t the same thing (because they didn’t increase their dynamic range, they actually compressed it).
@@PoesAcoustics I feel that dynamics is one of the most important things to being able to generate a natural live sound. That lacking, or phase problems from poorly integrated drivers drive me nuts.
Isn't that just a matter of starting at +16, and then going +15, +14, +13, +12, +11, +10, +9, +8, +7, +6, +5, +4? Not sure if we need a video on it, maybe more a therapy group?
May I please add the following: 1. People have gotten used to a PEAK in the Bass and then you come along and flatten things out 😊. 2. Many simply don't have enough Sub-woofage to do +12db at 18hz and therefore they have gotten use to 12+db at 30, 40, or even 60 hz. 3. Fletcher Munson Loudness curve - many don't have it and the many who do, may not use it to it's full potential. A.) it is a MUST have {don't have it, then seriously consider buying a new AVR / Pre-Pro} and B.) Learn how to fully implement, as in adjust for BOTH the Loudness you happen to be listen at and/or the level of Bass in the Mix. 4. Yes, do listen with LESS Bass - forget just flattening... lower the Bass BIGTIME below 80hz and even zero Bass below 40hz and THEN one week later you'll turn the Bass back on with likely HALF the boost you had previously (repeat every six months 😆).
@@PoesAcoustics if you have your theater sound proofed/decoupled so the sound doesn’t bleed to the rest of the house. Usually HVAC transmits the sound to the rest of the house
Great video! So what would consider normal bass? You said flat down to about 50hz, is that right? Then maybe shelving from there on down so at 20hz you’re about 5db above flat? Or should the rise start sooner at like 80 and be like 10db up from flat at 20hz? In my current system using 75db as the flat reference line, I'm at 78db at 70Hz, 80db at 40hz, and finishing at 83db at 20hz. I think that's within the range of normal by your standards correct?
I am not sure I said those specific targets or mentioned 50hz. So a flat measuring speaker (meaning one with a dead flat response under anechoic conditions and typical directivity) would achieve a rise of 1dB per octave in a typical room. So that would be a truly neutral speaker. Which isn’t the same as preferred. Work on preferred response have found that a pronounced knee and boost of 3-4dB of additional bass is desirable. But not a lot of rise above that. Around 150hz to 5khz should be close to flat. A little tilt is certainly ok. Above that there will always be some tilt unless you like it hot. Of course different speaker directivity can impact the shape. But bass is different. The rise in bass is more universal.
@@PoesAcoustics Thanks! So to make sure I’m understanding it right, you have the 1db per octave boost happening naturally on a flat response so if 160hz is flat at 75db, 80hz is 76db, 40hz is 77db, and 20hz is 78db correct? Then adding 3-4db on top of that would be 80hz at 79db, 40hz at 80db, and 20hz at 81db correct? If that’s the target then I’m pretty close to that with my numbers I described in the previous comment. Again, that’s assuming I’m adding those correctly? Thanks!
@@PoesAcoustics yes, it's from Magic Beans Audio. Anthony knows the guys who created it. I'm curious about if you've used it and if not would be interesting to hear your thoughts after you do.
@@PoesAcoustics Thanks Matt. I understand Anthony may not endorse its methods, but wondered if you would try it yourself and give your honest opinion on the results? Would be very interesting to hear your expert opinion as many are interested in it.
@@Espiritiv if Joe would like me to test his app and is open to offering me a trial version, I would be happy to try it and give my opinion. Joe has expressed his feelings toward me and my expertise in a way that would leave me to believe he is not interested.
That’s exactly what that work told us. We don’t perceive all frequencies equally for a given SPL and as the loudness increases you need to decrease bass levels to sound the same.
When calibrating speaker levels, do you usually aim to have everything at 75db at the main listening position, or do you calibrate the LFE channel higher than the LCR + Surrounds?
The correct way to calibrate follows SMPTE standards. It’s -20dBFS equals 85dBC slow at each speaker. Bass should actually read at 90.5dBC. That last one I only recently learned myself. The bass channel should be 10dB higher on a 1/3 octave RTA per band as compared to a screen channel. But the total energy for the bass channel C weighted is only about 5dB more. Not 10.
@@PoesAcousticsa video showing how to verify these numbers in REW would be cool. I suppose the shape of your target curve will have an impact here that you'll have to consider.
@@isak6626 I think you are right. I just was at an event where this came up. Realized it may not be as common knowledge as I thought. I mean, even I get some of this wrong.
I feel that "we" have lacking so much for so long and when we finally get a taste of "the good stuff" we get carried away ... by euphoric and intoxicating bass waves. :/
Hi Matt. This was an interesting vid thanks for posting it. Given all the arguments that you put forward which im sure you live by 😊, I wondered do you still find sometimes that certain Blu rays (example Gladiator 4k, circa 2013 3d editions of Jurrasic park) lack bass? The common theme seems to be that with such soundracks nothing is happening until the volume is close to -10. Even then the sub still needs a 5-7db boost (from a normal boost of say 3 for me) for things to sound proper aka exciting. Sometimes it sounds like some movies are mixed like they forgot +10db on the LFE part of the soundtrack at all like it was the early dvd days all over again. Thoughts? Do you still have to tweak your system for some movies because of what is coming off a disc or ISO? Cheers. Steve. Edit i guess the common theme for my examples is DTS..
Well keep in mind I list at or near reference levels. Music is obviously a different story. But for movies I am usually within 0 to -10 of reference. And if I am turning it down, it’s probably because it’s more of a family movie without a lot of bass to begin with.
@@Scott-Kat I do hope everyone took away from this that if you like a lot of bass, it’s your system. Do what makes you happy. There is a big difference between what is technically accurate and what you enjoy. No rules in this hobby say you must do it the right way. This is a hobby for enjoyment after all.
Guilty. I used to also boost bass to get that tactile feel. Built a small floating platform underneath my sofa and it is much improved. I used to run like 8db bass boost, but these days 4-5 seems plenty. Oh you forgot to say that to get more bass, just listen louder.
Hah that is true. And related to that, if you don’t listen loud enough, equal loudness requires the bass be turned up to equal a similar balance. So yeah, turn it up.
I think people turn up the bass for the same reason they turn up their Atmos speakers. They paid a lot of money for those speakers they want to hear them!
@@PoesAcousticsI think he’s talking about the continuation rise in bass levels below 20hz when it becomes a vibration rather than a sound and the amplitude required for feeling the bass is not perceived the same as how we hear it etc
@@njrumenos oh good question and topic. I have no idea. Honestly there is so little work in this area. For the longest time it was said we can’t hear below 20hz. Then it turned out we can, we are just really really insensitive. Increasingly so. So now it seems that we have a better understanding. We do but barely internet or perceive tone as tone to a bit under 20hz. Maybe 16hz. We can’t discern differences in pitch if multiple tones are played that low because the same nerves and mechanism is responsible. It makes sense to me that we would want to aggressively elevate below 30hz.
@@PoesAcoustics yes absolutely, the infrasonic sub region is an increasingly great area of interest of recent and it seems as if there is little research on this topic, it also seems there is a debate between achieving these infrasonic frequencies in particularly with larger subs or the cheaper alternative tactical transducers. It would be an area of interest there is any difference between the two types of methods of pressure and actual physically forced vibrations as well as a “standard” required level of intensity to help recreate a natural effect much similar to the Harman Curve with slightly elevated sub bass. At this stage the general trend of people playing with infrasonics is to maintain the same tilt in the curve within the sub region all the way down to 5hz.
I watch your channel with great interest. I've got a Trinnov 9.4.[4|6] dedicated room I built. As I'm in the UK and have converted a timber framed garage. Wall build up involved 4by2 with 75mm Rockwool & 25mm air space/ 25mm Celotex (as it's outside so keep cool/warm) / 18mm Ply/2.5mm TecSound/12.5mm Accoustic PB/ Wall Treatments for defusion ect. It does sit on a concrete subbase, but then PIR ( Celotex ) insulation, 22m flooring then carpet ( black of course ). I did notice what I perceived as an improvement when I decoupled my 4 x Identical active subs from the floor. So, I put 2" Cedar blocks of wood, then IsoAccoustic decoupling feet and then my Sub's ( ¼ into the room at four corners ). Are you implying that really I should have left the subs in direct contact with the floor ? I would appreciate your comment Mathew.
Having subs acoustically against boundaries increases boundary gain and reduced SBIR by shifting it higher. But if you are talking about 4-6 inches, it’s not a huge issue. Having some feet to avoid walking or buzzing is still important.
I bet the reason most people like bass is because concrete floors don't shake your seat. If you got more of a feel of bass from your seat, you probably wouldn't ask for as much audible bass. I say this having my home theater above a basement, and my 2 subs shake the couch and floor on those joists.
Yup and obviously we agree on this point. I know it’s not the most practical solution. But I would like to see more work to decouple the floors instead.
@@PoesAcoustics Same. It's one of my biggest detergents to moving. I'll have to figure out how to build a floating floor that gives me the same feeling, and I'll lose height. Also, no one else does that in KC, so I'm not even sure what to expect if I build one.
Stop saying SHOULD like there is some universal law that you and other pretentious people "above us" created. There is no SHOULD there is simply preference
I felt like this was an Bass-a-Holic Anonymous meeting. As I am turning up the Bass - “stop it. You’re not 17 years old anymore in your clapped out $2000 car with $12,000 in audio gear.” Me - 😅 But really though - that’s why profiles exist.
Did you really need 4 RTJ subs to listen at 2-3dB rise? At what point is too much headroom an actual waste of funds? I have dual SB16 Ultras in my family room setup with an open concept living space, and it’s not the theme park ride that I like, but it’s still plentiful.
It’s not just about what number it can hit. In my case the four 18’s and four 12’s are used to keep distortion down, increase output/headroom at 20hz and below, and most importantly, minimize room mode issues. Remember I am running Waveforming. Plus it is OK to turn it up for some silly shenanigans once in a while.
I have four JTR RS1s and I wouldn't consider myself a bassaholic. It evens the response across seats and I do run some solid boost down very deep, and the RS1s deliver that without strain. They also sound fantastic.
On the topic of how to experience bass. What are your thoughts on subwoofer isolation feet like SVS Soundpath. Seems like it would work to decouple the sub from the room. If you have a floating room, (My theater is on a 2nd floor) wouldn't that take away from tactile bass? ...or at the least make it super sloppy.
I don’t think it actually does significantly. I would need to test it I guess. But my thought is that it primarily decoupled the cabinet to floor coupling. The air to floor coupling remains significant. But it might reduce bass. I’ve long wondered what would happen if you bolted a subwoofer to the floor.
I, for one, seek realistic, bombastic sound. The audio is different sitting inside the orchestra vs conducting the orchestra. Knowing the difference is how I gauge my system. Yes, the bass is impactful and impressive, but not invasive.
Seems to be age related even thlugh there are plenty of old farts that like bass. The 1 st stereo i got was bass full blast. As i get older i the bass seems to be less of a want but i still have 12 subs for ...i dont know...infrasonics? Whatever sounds good.
I agree with the point of needing to modify the space the sound will be used in. As a long time car audio enthusiast, I tell my friends just getting into the hobby: putting money into your vehicle, i.e. sound deadener, expansion foam, bracing, and chasing rattles and silencing them is more important than installing a stronger sub, or larger amps. The perceived loudness (and sometimes SPL) increases because the music isn't fighting road noise or panels slapping the metal shell. I LOVE "too much bass". But only if it's super clean, and the mids and highs keep up enough. It's easy to make bass, it's difficult to make music.
Yeah and as someone who used to be into this as well, getting someone to let you remove the entire interior of the car to do this is hard. Even if the actual cost isn’t that bad, it means you lose the car for a week or more, it looks insane to see your beautiful car ripped apart like that. I get it on both sides. I know what a difference this makes but also why so many don’t want to do it. And just like 99% of AV shops and integrators can’t design and build a room the way I do, 99% of car audio shops can’t do the damping/insulating correctly.
Great video as always! However, I'd like to challenge your argument in this video with a question that I think deserves a video on its own.
What if people are not listening at reference level? Does not the perceived loudness of different frequencies then change so that a greater boost in bass (and treble) is actually needed to maintain accuracy? To my understanding that is what research has shown, and that is why we have an international standard that specifies how to correct for that (ISO 226:2023). To my understanding, mixing engineers take equal-loudness-level contours into account when mixing so that the mix sounds balanced at reference level. But again, most of us don't listen at reference level, many in the community have attested to that.
Audyssey's dynamic EQ is designed to correct for that using equal-loudness-level contours, i.e. boosting the bass and treble as you lower the volume below reference level. Audyssey themselves also claim to have done research where they have found that perceived loudness drops off faster behind us than in front of us (ISO 226:2023 only deals with sounds coming from straight ahead), wherefore Dynamic EQ also boosts the level of the surround channels.
Despite the fact that we have an international standard (which certainly does not come to fruition by chance), I often hear people in the home cinema community reject features like Dynamic EQ because they believe that it is a gimmick that should not be used if you want accuracy and creator's intent. At the same time, they admit that they never listen at reference level, but rather at -10 to -25 db below reference. Personally, I have calibrated my system using OCA's AudysseyOne script which does a fantastic job and sounds amazing at reference level, but when I listen at -40 dB with my family, Dynamic EQ is an absolute must for me as it does a fantastic job at restoring the the bass (and treble) that you get at higher listening levels.
So Matt, please explain to me (and the rest of the community), should we use loudness compensation features like Dynamic EQ if we listen below reference? If not, can you give us an educated answer as to why, because no one who bashes on Dynamic EQ seems to know what they are talking about.
Ps. For reference, here's a video where Jeff Clark (former Director of Software Engineering at Audyssey) explains Dynamic EQ and the reasoning behind it (at 11 min 30 seconds in): ua-cam.com/video/XdBSDSASUnk/v-deo.htmlsi=6Yq-q5XFUfeTdwBf&t=690
Thank you!
Thank you for your question. I’ll record a video to answer it when I get back from my trip to the Trinnov USA grand opening.
@@PoesAcoustics Hello,
Will Trinnov be offering any grand opening deals?
Asking for a friend .
You are correct, i also dont like the excessive shaking. I do boost the deep bass in ARC by 2-3db
Finally the voice of reason. I listen to a lot of audio/video pods and lately all people want to talk about is bass and subs.I live in a condo and my theater has two 10 inch RSL Speedwoofers which provides wonderful tactile bass.I cant shake the walls and floor being in a condo but I dont want to. I was told years ago that when setting volume on subs you just raise volume until you just start to hear bass in your speakers and then stop.Always works for me.
Do keep in mind that bass IS really important. There is a difference between bass being important and bass being too loud. Bass needs to be loud enough and capable of all the dynamic range of the recordings at all frequencies. But bass shouldn’t be 10-20dB louder than it’s supposed to be, that actually hurts the dynamic range issue majorly.
I appreciate everything in this video, this is exactly my philosophy and I have 4 very capable subs in each corner. Lots of headroom and dialed in as the creator intended!! To each their own, but the balance is perfect for me. Thank you Matt!
My name is AJ James and im a bassaholic.
Admitting it is the first step!
Hi AJ, welcome to the group.
Hello AJ, welcome. First do you have any portable subs on your person? Secondly please refrain from beat-boxing here as that can often trigger others.
Love how you addressed this topic and the preset method is exactly the way I do it. Demo bass, boosted, and natural.
When I got the right woofage amount for my room the texture is amazing and head room is always available.
2:30 I think it's only partly useful as a comparison. True, it's 'coloring the bass' but your ears will actually hurt at those level differences at the upper end of the spectrum. There's no physical giveaway like that to the average user at the lower end of the scale.
Overall, the tricky part is a lot of standards are the consensus of researched mass group's opinions layered on top of sound mixes that are again an interpreted opinion of how something should sound. For example, if every movie was mixed like Blade Runner 2049, you'd probably see a lot more systems with less boosting on the low end.
Another item is, some people don't like reference volume, it's just too loud for them (It often is for me), but the mixes themselves assume bass mixed with those levels in mind. And... as you know... as you turn the volume down, the bass disproportionately drops off from a perception level. So up goes the boosted bass. (And good luck with stereo mixed music, the wild wild west of do whatever you want with your levels.)
I thought the salt analogy was great, and I'm glad you addressed tactile at the end!
EDIT ADD-ON:
Naturally now that I've read through the comments, everything I just wrote has already been brought up elsewhere. Apologies! ^_^
I used to be a Bassaholic with a +6dB house curve. Once I got a better sub the first thing I noticed was that it was less boomy and it took me a while to get used to. But even with a better sub, I belatedly realised that in my room I have to turn the bass down (when using BEQ) so that the bass & LFE stays within my listening area. Otherwise it reverberates throughout the room and I'm guessing out to the neighbours too.
Now I'm a Bassaholic, but I get my fix by using a sub with a transducer (TR) to get the same (actually better) impact than I would have had with the sub by itself. I can't speak for people with multiple subs, but this works well for me.
I think there’s two factors to bass, there’s the sound itself,and then the tactile feeling from bass. One of the best things I ever did was add crowsons, where I can adjust the sound separate from the shake. It’s been great.
Setting the bass level is challenging because older movies/music have less bass content than the newer material. I use the bass tone control to tweak as needed.
That’s a great approach. That is similar to my preset method. The only issue with tone controls on a surround system is that it may not apply it like a target curve to all the speakers.
And it’s not just old vs new. In general there is a great deal of variability.
Good video, about time someone made a point of this. I really don't understand why people tend to want so much bass. Yes, I have twelve Ultimax 18" drivers in Infinite Baffle to handle 40 Hz down but I don't do this so I can run the bass 20 dB hot, I do it so each driver only has to work a little bit, with just a little excursion and very little power.
At the front of the room, eight woofers in groups of 4 are powered by a single Emotiva XPA channel with just one of the 2 ohm voice coils on each, all in series for an 8 ohm load. Not sure what the all channel driven power is on the XPA at 8 ohms but I'm guessing it's providing an available 60 watts per woofer.
The four woofers at the back are not connected yet but will be shortly after I get back from Japan this weekend. They will be in pairs also using just one 2 ohm coil from each in series for a 4 ohm load. These will also be driven by a single XPA channel driving 4 ohms so maybe they have 120+ watts available. These woofers are all attic mounted Infinite baffle and they are only operating from around 10 Hz to 40 Hz so very little power is required. The resonance peak in the impedance is right in the middle of this range so the actual power is significantly less than what you would calculate based on voltage across the leads and an assumed 4 or 8 ohm impedance. It's still way more power than needed.
People talk about having 1000 or 2000 watts or 2.1 Gigiwatt subwoofers but that's just not necessary. Besides, the power output capability of the subwoofer amplifier is in no way a description of the subwoofers acoustic output capability. In my system, 60 watts per driver is more than enough, just a few watts to each driver just about shakes the house apart.
Especially for Home Theater, I don't mind running the bottom end a couple dB hot but that's about it. I've heard systems with the bass at least 10 dB hot or more and too me it just destroys the overall sound quality of the system. If that's what you really like, I suppose it's ok but are you sure that it really is what you like??? There have been converts, people that thought they liked 10+ dB hot bass but after some time listening to a properly calibrated system, discovered they couldn't stand the hot bass anymore.
When I received the measurement data of the Trinnov ISE demo room, I looked at the bass response, extension, etc. I also looked at the distortion. I forget the exact figure, but it was something like .5% THD at 20hz at 110dB in room. Take a normal system with 1-2 even 4 18” subs and you will be a heck of a lot higher than that.
There are some really cold advantages to having a ton of subs, it’s not just about output. That headroom means the system isn’t working hard most of the time.
Take my short on infrasonic death. My subs are working hard on that track. Yes it reproduces it, but there is so much excursion happening to do it that there is air and mechanical noise. If I had four more 18’s, it would play the same volume much cleaner. That’s a good thing.
I’m beginning to agree with this concept. I think it’s similar to how people can be initially turned off by accurate PQ as opposed to the vivid mode they’re used to. I was one of those people wayyyy back in the day.
Oh man, i forgot about ur floating floor! Ive. Ive been in construction for 20+ years and i agree but its so much fun buying or building subs!
You can do both.
@@PoesAcoustics what does floating floor means ? I googled it but did not get anything meaningful 😢
I totally agree with this. I don't like the feeling of when bass vibrates your ears and body however if you are going to do it make sure it's at the really low frequencies i.e. sub 40hz just to get that visceral impact if you like that.
I liked this analogy. I've worked as a Server in mostly upscale restaurants through my adult life. Your comparison to salt strikes a chord with me. I strongly dislike having salt and pepper on the table. A competent chef will prepare a dish with the proper amount. I'd of course never deny anyones request for anything they'd like to add, but my hope is that at the very least they'd taste it first. I find a surprising number of people will ask for s&p before even trying it and honestly I've come to wonder if it's maybe an indication of irrationality in someone, lol? I guess I've spent too much time thinking on that one, lol.
This is actually a good point. What inspired this video was a conversation with my friend and colleague Peter Aylett. Peter mentioned that he believes it is our job to give clients what they need. That we shouldn’t expect them to know what they want because they just won’t have our depth of experiment and expertise. We know what good is and what is possible. We also know how to achieve it. Most people can’t and don’t. That’s why they come to us. So he was disagreeing with my willingness to give the client S&P to use this analogy. I think he makes a fair point.
Most of the top calibrators I know don’t give a lot of options, if any, to clients. They tune it to be good and leave it at that. Forces the person to learn to listen to a correctly tuned system that way. Now my counter argument fits your analogy. You are the server. You can’t control the quality of food the chef prepares. And he can’t always control the quality of ingredients. So what happens if a bum dish is served but it can be saved by a little extra salt? With music, a lot of music varies greatly and it’s not all balanced correctly. I mean, you should see what passes as studio monitors these days in major studios. So sometimes you need to give options to help offset the problems coming in. Hopefully that isn’t the norm.
Everything I ever wanted to say about bass boost desires of majority
You mentioned floating floor. I thought this concept was straight forward, till I googled floating floor for home theater and saw a huge range of floating floors. I would be interested to your take on this.
What do you mean? There are many ways to do it. Are you asking my preferred method?
@@PoesAcousticsexactly what do you mean by floating floor ? Is it just LVP attaching or something different ?
@@abhijithnaiduit means the floor surface is suspended in a spring or elastomer. Not that the floor surface isn’t adhered down.
Thank you for being so level headed and open minded, some You tubers are very preachy and think their "opinion" is gospel. Great topic by the way! I use Pure Direct mode on my equipment, and I build my speakers and subs myself, I design the cross-over so the speaker is as neutral as I can, with the goal to not need tone controls. It is difficult to achieve a one setting for all situations for a system like that, and I am of the thinking that you barely realize a sub is on until the REALLY low stuff hits. My subs high pass is set to 45Hz (which I think is a bit high sometimes) as the main speakers are extremely capable. I believe movie theaters are guilty of too much bass as well, and fidelity... don't get me started, but this is what many might be chasing to have in their home! I'm curious, would you know roughly how many Db's hot an average movie theater is?
same with listening loud. turn volume down 30db for 10 min than rise it little by little, you get your fix and protect your hearing.
Very nice explanation 👌
My question is how to calculate the subwoofer size with respect to room volume, since low freequencies create the pressure level is very difficult to control/treated especially in small or medium size rooms people buying big size(15"/18") subwoofer for medium rooms and they can't achieve their expectations.
I use 4, 6 and 8 db boost below 120Hz as targets for my system. Depending in the Content. Music mostly 8. Movies 6 and when listening reference levels 4. Your analogy with food is good. Sugar would be an even better example. It is really hard to recalibrate you taste to less sugar especially in drinks.
Thack you so much for this intelligent approach to big bass. I’ve had the opportunity to play with enough woofers to overload my space with bass. Not a desireable place to be.
I’m a 2 channel guy, reformed ex-HT’r. The desires of the 2 channel listener is not what the bass heads are doing. We want balanced proper bass, not exaggerated presence that impacts the overall balance of sound.
I wish I could hear what a probably calibrated room would sound like.Like Mathew Pose or a Grimani system without spending a fortune and hoping I will like it !! I know what I like is it reference or not?
What are your thoughts on how a sealed or ported sub pressurise/energise a room?
I often see people report more tactile feedback from a ported sub and a different sensation of pressurisation on the ears 🤔
If you had an equal db output of material playing back on ported then sealed in the same frequency operating range of the subs (I.e around and above port tune) do you feel there’s any difference?
At the same SPL levels, no I don’t think there would be any difference. For many people, the ported sub is going to have a lot more output. More output means more visceral bass.
After many years of trying to get ported subs right. Many many custom subwoofer packages. Many manufactured subs. I came to the conclusion that sealed subs is better overall and the SPL deficiency is best made up with more subs.
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I have 4 different Harman curves saved in my HTP-1. +4db, +6db, +8db, & +10db curves. I prefer +8db for most content, but sometimes I will drop it down to the +6db or +4db curve, if the +8db curve is too much. +10db is hardly ever used in my system. It’s important to note that not all content is created equal.
I like what I like.🤷♂️
Musical content is all over the place. And tone controls are quite needed to achieve balance.
I'm glad you mentioned this about bass. I find it can really confuse seperation in sound making objects or detail sound less definitive. And what some recognise as warm sounds muddier to me.. there is a way to get dynamic punch without the boom. It's alot of experimenting though
"How do you prefer you bass?" Me: Seismic.
Great video Matt! I love bass and I consider myself a bassaholic. However I like my bass clean and tight. I'm running 4, 10in subs in my 5.1.2 setup in a 16'x13'x8' open concept living room that opens to the kitchen and main entry way . It Sounds awesome. I'm using a house curve that I like and fell in love since I EQ'd and applied it to my miniDSP after learning it from Home Theater Gurus. The Subs house curve is a 10 dB gradual rise starting at 100Hz and and leveling out at 30Hz. Sounds awesome. The lowest I listen to my system is -10 MV and this house curve provides the chest thump I love at the level and consistent to up to -20 MV. I have plenty of headroom and never had clipping issues. The room correction software that I use makes my system sound cohesive and big. The bass is tight and it blends very well with my speakers. I cannot tell where bass is coming from in the room and I get good seat to seat consistency(4 seat row). With all that said I think I'm running my subs 10dB hot and I like how it sounds. I guess it all comes down to personal preference.
It's different when building a new construction, because the individual can determine the ceiling height and flooring. Most people have houses already built and basements have 7.5ft ceiling over a concrete foundation. Once, they add flooring etc... it becomes 7 - 6.5ft. What's the best way to circumvent this issue and get tactial bass. I assume adding a near field sub intergrated would solve the issue. That might be the reason some people run their subs +12db hot IF they're in the basement. If not that's freaking crazy 😂
I would argue there are more flavors of the problem than just turning up the bass too much. I think 2 points missed or glossed over are that many are looking for a level of bass intensity, which you mentioned referring to tactile feel. There are also significant differences in listening levels of many based on preference, acoustics, and speaker/system dynamic capability. In many cases the bass is at reference level and they are listening at -20 to -10 dB below reference as that is where their speakers and acoustics sound comfortable, and they are adjusting for both loudness effects from listening at lower levels, and trying to make up for the bass they aren't feeling as much as they want. I would argue that many of the bassaholics need to turn up or upgrade their main speakers to provide the level of detail to support the bass levels they are after. Just as many have limitations with acoustics where typical reference levels become too noisy and loud. As I recall Floyd Toole mentioning in some interviews, their research for the Synthesis systems found that differing LF room acoustics such as size and rigidity would result in as much as a 10dB variation in level to get the similar perceived bass level. The caveat being that they likely had mixed conditions of floor construction and makeup.
Fair points Mark. I think I covered the tactile part ok but I didn’t think to talk about what level people listen at or the dynamic limits of the speakers. You and I have talked about that before. I have talked about how I believe many speakers simply don’t have the dynamic range they need. You and I certainly agree on that. I really believe that many who feel that reference levels is too loud like my are reacting to compression and distortion. Not an actual feeling of being too loud. That is certainly my experience.
You could have mentioned Youthman and would have been accurate. 🤣 I prefer my system to be 6dB hot. And I like it! 😀
Hah when you came to my house your preferred curve was the 12dB hot curve. Which I made as a joke thinking you would not like it. Michael, you might be a bassaholic. But it is ok!
I also run mine about 6db hot 😁
@@PoesAcoustics from memory ,Michael uses Dynamic EQ along with a house curve ,so he's probably at 10-12dB hot in most cases
How does imax theater rooms correct for their massive bass?
I have had 3 8” subs with tactile transducers and I recently bought 2 15s thinking I would no longer need the bass Shakers and boy was I wrong. So obviously, I’m going to hook them back up but it almost makes me wish I upgraded to nicer tactile transducers instead of the subs.
How dare you sir. What am I supposed to do with these 4 24s now!? I've definitely noticed the clarity issues you mention here. With DLBC I have a +12, +8, and +3 profile I switch between. I love the sound of +12 with most music and practically all movies (even those with music) but occasionally I do need to tone things down a bit. I suspect this upper bass boost that causes clarity issues is frequently to blame when people say room correction sounds worse than having it turned off - what do you think?
Could be. As someone else noted, 30hz to 80hz is a sensitive area. Actually 80hz to 200hz is a very sensitive area because it changes and colors make voices a lot. So you really need to be careful with the target curves.
Please do a video on time aligning your subs with your mains in REW
I keep getting asked this. I will. Promise. Just need to find the time.
Two PB16'S one JTR RS2 DUAL 18'S and one single JTR 18. U can never have too much
3:40 - I think you mis-spoke on the range? 20hz to 20khz?
Fully agree with your main point though. I plan to set different dirac presets for different levels of base because of this. Thank you for the great video!
I think I said that right. So the work Harman did on the natural rise of a speaker in a room vs anechoic found a rise of 1dB per octave. So 10 octaves is 10dB. No?
@@PoesAcoustics Ah, got it. I misinterpreted. I thought you said the db increase for bass was supposed to range from 20hz to 20kHz, which is a pretty big range outside the range of bass. Now I understand what you mean, you're saying the db difference between 20 hz and 20 kHz. Makes perfect sense. Thank you!
Is there any data or recommendation on how much additional boost is needed under 20hz so that the infrasonic balance well with everything above 20hz?
There is actually. Keep in mind we don’t EQ using equal loudness curved. If we did, we would be boosting the bass at 20hz by 50+dB. I have not seen any data to suggest that is a good plan. However we can use the work that used statistical modeling to extend equal loudness curves and threshold curves into the infrasonics. This would allow us to gauge how much boost is needed.
Problem is you need exponentially more displacement for every octave you go down. So if you need 6dB more output at 10hz than at 20hz, that is 4x more subwoofers (assuming they are sealed subs they even have infrasonic output of any significance).
Tell me what to eat, watch and wear GURU. You definetely know better what is best for me, what I do wrong and what I should like...
What's your thoughts on using BEQ?
Wouldn't it be more like sugar since its an intense addiction you can't get over?
As I was watching this video all I could do was imagine heads exploding on the AVS subwoofer forum. Great video!
I am sure there are threads already started working on my early demise.
Thanks for the good discussion Matt. How do equal loudness curves factor into this? If you're saying a proper bass boost might be 4-6db, assuming that is at 85db reference level correct? What if the listening level is 75db or even 70db? Is it just as simple as adding additional boost for the amount of db you are under reference?
At lower volumes the bass needs to be turned up to sound equally loud with more boost at lower frequencies.
@@PoesAcoustics Right, but how much is the question. I found some sites that were suggesting +5db boost for every 10db under reference? If that's true your 6db suggestion +5db would mean my +10-12db boost seems right for 75db listening.
I live on the ground floor of an apartment block. So, when it comes to bass, I have to be respectful of my living environment. My lounge/listening space is 19 feet long, 17 feet wide and 8 feet high. Solid concrete flooring built on block and beam work. Solid concrete ceiling between me and the apartment above. Plasterboard internal walls. I’m not into home theatre, I’m a 2 channel man. My 2 substancial floorstanders are each equipped with 5 165mm low frequency drivers with an in room response of 22hz. I do use 3 10 inch subs, to achieve an even bass distribution. These subs are barely ticking over with the volume/intensity level of the front 2 subs set to 4 of a potential 40 and the sub placed at the back of the room, which is a down firing sub, set to 6 out of a potential 40 volume. Those subs just give a slight augmentation to my floorstander’s excellent bass response. I would describe the sonic character I’ve created as, balanced. I don’t aim to shake the room, but when I’m listening to large orchestral performances at 85db plus peaking at 106db, the room does shake. I can only listen at those volumes when I know my neighbour is not in. There are times when certain tracks could potentially benefit from the bass being augmented by a couple of extra db, but I’m a set and forget chap, so live with it assuming those tracks were mastered not to be overly bassy.
How about adding the Harmon curves into dirac? I used to go +8 but once I upgraded to 4 stark sw15s I don't add any Harmon curves anymore.
Random question = the scariest sound I've ever heard was an angry tiger. Turns out their growl goes as low as 16Hz. Is there a way of getting a recording that goes that low, and playing it in a home theater system?
Of course. Why not. Condenser mics with no high pass filter and a dc coupled mic preamp will record down to 5hz or lower. Just need to make sure your gear isn’t high passed at all.
If you are asking if I have such a thing, I do not.
Yh, you are right, in that the upper bass ruins the detail of the higher frequencies, and makes voices sound too bassy, which I hate. But I love to FEEEEL the bass, feel the T-Rex footsteps in jurassic park. So I whack up the subwoofer as much as i can. But then that problem occurs. What would be good, is to have a system that recognises explosions, Trex stomps, etc, and separates them from voices etc... so we can have explosions etc super high, but still have the voices with normal bass.
If I understand correctly, you're suggesting the room curve should only be boosted below 50 Hz. If the crossover point for the LCR and surrounds is 100 Hz, would it just be a gentle slope down toward the 100 Hz point? A couple of diagrams would go a long way towards giving us pointers, but I understand this can't all be mapped out on a post-it note.
BTW, I just started Floyd Toole's book on Sound Reproduction - trying to read it cover to cover without skipping to today's discussion. Thanks for all the great videos!
No no. Bass will always and should always have a rise. Not at 50hz. I am not sure where that confusion is coming from. Below 50hz you can give more rose. And below 30hz a lot more. But I am not suggesting flat to 50hz.
@@PoesAcoustics Understood, realizing text is not the best method for communication, but that is all this venue offers. Not thinking flat, but a more gentle rise than the great number of people promoting a "target curve" with 5-10 dB of boost starting around 80-100 Hz . Beginning the room correction needs to be tailored to specific speakers and room. Will still re-evaluate current room correction and try to hold off overdoing the bass boost. The great thing is the ability to make adjustments and have some presets to test with.
I just want another pair of 18s to balance out the pair I already have...
You do need a few more pairs. I’ve been judging you JC.
0:50
I took that statement personally
Hah. Our Bass recovery program has openings if you need.
@@PoesAcoustics 😂 consider myself signed up
*Frantically scrolls to see if Scott Newby has entered the chat*
Hah I think even Scott would admit to his extreme bass addiction. It’s akin to your buddy bringing a case of beer, insisting he will only have a few, and dancing half naked in your dining table just after dinner is served. Slurring the words to Mama Mia.
@@PoesAcoustics he’s the dealer trying to sell you more stuff, not the guy leading the bassaholics anonymous meeting.
I think he’s up to…what, 18-18” JTRs?
@@L3x4Pr0ne I did read he got more. I think my wife would leave me at 16.
@@PoesAcoustics16 is a stack of 4 in each corner. She'll understand. I think she'd draw the line at #17.
I don’t think there are even chairs at that point. Just JTR bench seats 😂
Issue is human hearing is different than microphone. Most people will not listen anywhere near reference levels and your bass has to be way boosted to even be fully flat audible down to hearing limit 16--17hz ish.
My argument is specifically based on psychoacoustics. Not microphone measurment. You are referring to the equal loudness curves. We also don’t EQ to the equal loudness curves. They are simply a guide for offsetting bass and treble levels as volume is turned down. But we have to start with neutral first.
Makes sense, build a more efficient room to get the visceral effect your after sooner rather than boosting the bass to the point it’s unbalanced, ultimately that’s what we are all after is the tactical effects, on concrete floors you don’t get that till you are +8db or even higher with less efficient subs, a major misconception with in the industry. Great content keep it rolling!
Some great advice, I'll need to ween myself off though
By "floating floor" do you mean engineered hardwood/laminate/LVP over a thin foam pad (a typical residential floating floor installation)? I'm planning to build a home theater/listening room in my basement with a concrete floor. I was planning to put in thick padding and carpet, but now I'm wondering if I should go with a floating solid floor - maybe with a large rug on top.
That is not what I meant. I meant two layers of 3/4” T&G on top of 1” or more foam, rubber, silicone, or metal springs. Of course air springs are the best when money is no object.
In this regard a floating floor refers to having the floor in the room acoustically float over the solid base floor. It is used for sound isolation, but had the side benefit of making tactile bass much better.
@@PoesAcoustics Thank you
I guess in the end it's really up to what the individual prefers. I very much understand what you're saying however room size does play a great deal in your whole dynamics of mid-range and bass add volume are what some make call reference level however in the end we all like to have good sound now you have to admit you pulled up to that annoying car at a red light and the car is actually basing so hard it's shaking stuff in your car so yes you can overdo anything however not having acoustical setups correct and not having enough Bass the correct way can all play a factor. But to get back to my point Everyone likes what they like me personally yes I like enough space to wear if you set something down on the coffee table you may find it in the floor throughout the movie that may be a bit much for some, however for me I love a lot of bass and I have tried to cut down just in balancing out my setup I have external emotiva amplifiers for my highs ,and mid-range but I love a good bass sound..
So is the Dirac default curve/ slanted line of 1-2db up in the bass and 1-2db down in the treble an ideal way to recalibrate your sense of system standards?
I haven’t looked at that curve but no that would be too flat.
Hello sir ? FOR u I have a small room 13x13 haven't gone atmos in my scenario would u do atmos or stick with 7.1 and get infra sonic subs?
Well keep in mind that any sub could be an infrasonic sub. That term just means it has the ability to reproduce infrasonic. As long as there is enough displacement and no highpass filter, any sealed subwoofer will reproduce infrasonics. A pair of sealed 18” subs can be infrasonic subs. A pair of 10” subs can be too, but at much lower output.
If you are asking me which will wow you more, probably the subs. But both are part of getting the creative intent of the original content.
Excellent video! Could you perhaps delve a little deeper into the floating floor concept in another video? I'm sure many of us would find it informative
I’ve covered it in my home theater build. But I can tell that I need to do more. People want to better understand this.
Great video. I run about 5dB hot in the deep bass, a bit more in the subsonic stuff. The salt analogy is a great one. I appreciate sealed sub systems with a moderate amount of bass that have the detail and subtle authority.
I think that’s good.
@@PoesAcoustics
We all know auto eq can set the bass too low (in level). But aside from that, I usually adjust the LFE to -5db because with the bass management from the other speaker and the LFE channel on at the same time it just gets too loud and I generally turn the subs up a couple db since non-LFE sources can sound weak even with bass management. That being said, assume you Calibrated your system and you boosted your subwoofer by +5db, wouldn't you want to then reduce the LFE level by -5db to compensate? I know bass management and LFE are not the same but the LFE channel is being fed to the subwoofer and when you adjust the gain on the sub youre also adjusting the LFE level and possibly throwing out of calibration.
I'm definitely a ridiculous bass hound. Especially after you hear a REALLY GOOD sub, like when I went to JTR's - holy hell, that is not something you can "unhear"
I have to admit those are some of best subs I’ve heard.
Some of the best I have heard too.
I’m such a bassic B with my 10dB room curve and DynamicEQ ON…
I mean, you really are! 🙂↔️
i think that in the end of the discussion You've "hit the nail on the head" ,The main "problem" is that we as bass lovers are looking for the tactical experience (sometimes like what we love at the movie Theater), and our way to get there is probably not the best...Therefore, I would be happy if you would expand more on how this can be achieved in more successful ways other than building a floating floor?
This was asked so many times I think I need to cover it again. Do look at my older build videos though. I did cover this in an older video. But yes I’ll do something fresh.
I have 14 18-inch subs they are all tuned to 10 hrz i dont have any issues. i would add more. i just ran out of room, lol
Are you sure you don’t have any issues?
in home theater I find that bass in the 30-80 Hz, you have to be very careful with. if to high, it can mess up everything talked about here, but also turn the constant drone that is just to much and distracts from everything else. its just too much. sub 30Hz however i boost to the moon. I have the headroom, it makes everyone that listens to it smile, but more importantly it makes me smile. I am a bassoholic, but with refined pallet, or at least that is what i tell myself.
Yes I totally agree. We actually need to raise levels below 30hz because of our lower sensitivity.
Would putting seats on a 3/4" plywood board with some 1.25" isolators under it be enough to provide tactile feedback or would need to make a small riser platform?
Sounds like a weekend warrior project. Try it and report back. I really am not sure if that would work.
"The Importance of Tactile Bass in Home Theatres" is that the related video in your channel that you mentioned?
Probably. I don’t remember the things I post day to day! But it sounds right.
Hi, pose, I have the Denon AVR-X4700H, and I want to setup a 6.2.4 what will be the difference from 7.2.4 will it sound the same?
Speakers are set at 75db and subs set at 80db. Two monolith 15s and a HSU VTF2mk5. In basement on concrete floors and I shake the entire house.
What is generating the tone? REW?
Same. I currently have 2 Klipsch 120-THXs and they can be heard and felt upstairs.
Soon to be four though. Time to one in each corner.
Kick drums and a variety of instruments just don't sound good if the bass is extremely exaggerated. I think if you can get it to play deeper, it often makes a better difference than just louder. Sometimes the issue I think is also just not having enough power/drivers for the bass so you lack what you perceive as dynamics because if you don't boost it, it seems soft. And as you said, if you turn it up and you had to boost it so much it will hit the limits early.
I had this same conversation with Ed Mullins. Guys don’t have enough bass headroom and turn it up to compensate. What they need is more/better subs. Not louder. Those aren’t the same thing (because they didn’t increase their dynamic range, they actually compressed it).
@@PoesAcoustics I feel that dynamics is one of the most important things to being able to generate a natural live sound. That lacking, or phase problems from poorly integrated drivers drive me nuts.
Maybe a video on the 12 steps next? 😅
Isn't that just a matter of starting at +16, and then going +15, +14, +13, +12, +11, +10, +9, +8, +7, +6, +5, +4? Not sure if we need a video on it, maybe more a therapy group?
I still need to come to terms with the fact that it does go below +16.
It all starts with acknowledgement. 😇
May I please add the following: 1. People have gotten used to a PEAK in the Bass and then you come along and flatten things out 😊. 2. Many simply don't have enough Sub-woofage to do +12db at 18hz and therefore they have gotten use to 12+db at 30, 40, or even 60 hz. 3. Fletcher Munson Loudness curve - many don't have it and the many who do, may not use it to it's full potential. A.) it is a MUST have {don't have it, then seriously consider buying a new AVR / Pre-Pro} and B.) Learn how to fully implement, as in adjust for BOTH the Loudness you happen to be listen at and/or the level of Bass in the Mix. 4. Yes, do listen with LESS Bass - forget just flattening... lower the Bass BIGTIME below 80hz and even zero Bass below 40hz and THEN one week later you'll turn the Bass back on with likely HALF the boost you had previously (repeat every six months 😆).
How do you have HVAC ventilation in your room?
I am confused by this question?
@@PoesAcoustics if you have your theater sound proofed/decoupled so the sound doesn’t bleed to the rest of the house. Usually HVAC transmits the sound to the rest of the house
Great video! So what would consider normal bass? You said flat down to about 50hz, is that right? Then maybe shelving from there on down so at 20hz you’re about 5db above flat? Or should the rise start sooner at like 80 and be like 10db up from flat at 20hz? In my current system using 75db as the flat reference line, I'm at 78db at 70Hz, 80db at 40hz, and finishing at 83db at 20hz. I think that's within the range of normal by your standards correct?
I am not sure I said those specific targets or mentioned 50hz.
So a flat measuring speaker (meaning one with a dead flat response under anechoic conditions and typical directivity) would achieve a rise of 1dB per octave in a typical room. So that would be a truly neutral speaker. Which isn’t the same as preferred. Work on preferred response have found that a pronounced knee and boost of 3-4dB of additional bass is desirable. But not a lot of rise above that. Around 150hz to 5khz should be close to flat. A little tilt is certainly ok. Above that there will always be some tilt unless you like it hot.
Of course different speaker directivity can impact the shape. But bass is different. The rise in bass is more universal.
@@PoesAcoustics Thanks! So to make sure I’m understanding it right, you have the 1db per octave boost happening naturally on a flat response so if 160hz is flat at 75db, 80hz is 76db, 40hz is 77db, and 20hz is 78db correct? Then adding 3-4db on top of that would be 80hz at 79db, 40hz at 80db, and 20hz at 81db correct? If that’s the target then I’m pretty close to that with my numbers I described in the previous comment. Again, that’s assuming I’m adding those correctly? Thanks!
@@NickMatzkeMusic yeah that looks right. There is certainly a range.
Hey Matt have you tried Magic Beans yet for setting your target curves?
Is this a serious comment?
@@PoesAcoustics yes, it's from Magic Beans Audio. Anthony knows the guys who created it. I'm curious about if you've used it and if not would be interesting to hear your thoughts after you do.
@@Espiritiv I know all about it. Anthony doesn’t endorse what they are doing. It simply went on the channel once.
@@PoesAcoustics Thanks Matt. I understand Anthony may not endorse its methods, but wondered if you would try it yourself and give your honest opinion on the results? Would be very interesting to hear your expert opinion as many are interested in it.
@@Espiritiv if Joe would like me to test his app and is open to offering me a trial version, I would be happy to try it and give my opinion. Joe has expressed his feelings toward me and my expertise in a way that would leave me to believe he is not interested.
Fletcher Munson curve. I feel like lower volumes can have more bass but when you turn up, bass should come down
That’s exactly what that work told us. We don’t perceive all frequencies equally for a given SPL and as the loudness increases you need to decrease bass levels to sound the same.
When calibrating speaker levels, do you usually aim to have everything at 75db at the main listening position, or do you calibrate the LFE channel higher than the LCR + Surrounds?
The correct way to calibrate follows SMPTE standards. It’s -20dBFS equals 85dBC slow at each speaker. Bass should actually read at 90.5dBC. That last one I only recently learned myself. The bass channel should be 10dB higher on a 1/3 octave RTA per band as compared to a screen channel. But the total energy for the bass channel C weighted is only about 5dB more. Not 10.
Excellent information, thank you.
@@PoesAcousticsa video showing how to verify these numbers in REW would be cool. I suppose the shape of your target curve will have an impact here that you'll have to consider.
@@isak6626 I think you are right. I just was at an event where this came up. Realized it may not be as common knowledge as I thought. I mean, even I get some of this wrong.
.................starting tomorrow 1db a week for 12 weeks till I'm back down to +9db.......yes I can.....!!....
You can do it. We believe in you.
I feel that "we" have lacking so much for so long and when we finally get a taste of "the good stuff" we get carried away ... by euphoric and intoxicating bass waves. :/
It’s kind of like horsepower. If all you ever drive is a minivan, and suddenly you have a Corvette Z06, you might speed a bit more than in the past.
Hi Matt. This was an interesting vid thanks for posting it. Given all the arguments that you put forward which im sure you live by 😊, I wondered do you still find sometimes that certain Blu rays (example Gladiator 4k, circa 2013 3d editions of Jurrasic park) lack bass?
The common theme seems to be that with such soundracks nothing is happening until the volume is close to -10. Even then the sub still needs a 5-7db boost (from a normal boost of say 3 for me) for things to sound proper aka exciting. Sometimes it sounds like some movies are mixed like they forgot +10db on the LFE part of the soundtrack at all like it was the early dvd days all over again. Thoughts? Do you still have to tweak your system for some movies because of what is coming off a disc or ISO? Cheers. Steve.
Edit i guess the common theme for my examples is DTS..
Well keep in mind I list at or near reference levels. Music is obviously a different story. But for movies I am usually within 0 to -10 of reference. And if I am turning it down, it’s probably because it’s more of a family movie without a lot of bass to begin with.
Ouch! I’m hit im hit , man down man down … is this my intervention?!?!
Nobody can make you change. Only you can make change yourself. When you are ready, we are here with loving arms ready to accept you.
Never!!!!! 😂
@@Scott-Kat I do hope everyone took away from this that if you like a lot of bass, it’s your system. Do what makes you happy. There is a big difference between what is technically accurate and what you enjoy. No rules in this hobby say you must do it the right way. This is a hobby for enjoyment after all.
Oh ya man no doubt! I can admit I like it over the top at times .. 1st step is admitting I have a problem 😅
@@Scott-Kat you are a bassaholic. It’s ok. You likely take the cake on that one.
Guilty. I used to also boost bass to get that tactile feel. Built a small floating platform underneath my sofa and it is much improved. I used to run like 8db bass boost, but these days 4-5 seems plenty. Oh you forgot to say that to get more bass, just listen louder.
Hah that is true. And related to that, if you don’t listen loud enough, equal loudness requires the bass be turned up to equal a similar balance. So yeah, turn it up.
I think people turn up the bass for the same reason they turn up their Atmos speakers. They paid a lot of money for those speakers they want to hear them!
Damn makes sense. In my room, definitely have to lower the bass a bit.
Even if “appropriate”, would be great to have a video on “appropriate” infrasonic bass vs more intense 20Hz+
Not sure what you mean?
@@PoesAcousticsI think he’s talking about the continuation rise in bass levels below 20hz when it becomes a vibration rather than a sound and the amplitude required for feeling the bass is not perceived the same as how we hear it etc
@@njrumenos oh good question and topic. I have no idea. Honestly there is so little work in this area.
For the longest time it was said we can’t hear below 20hz. Then it turned out we can, we are just really really insensitive. Increasingly so. So now it seems that we have a better understanding. We do but barely internet or perceive tone as tone to a bit under 20hz. Maybe 16hz. We can’t discern differences in pitch if multiple tones are played that low because the same nerves and mechanism is responsible. It makes sense to me that we would want to aggressively elevate below 30hz.
@@PoesAcoustics yes absolutely, the infrasonic sub region is an increasingly great area of interest of recent and it seems as if there is little research on this topic, it also seems there is a debate between achieving these infrasonic frequencies in particularly with larger subs or the cheaper alternative tactical transducers.
It would be an area of interest there is any difference between the two types of methods of pressure and actual physically forced vibrations as well as a “standard” required level of intensity to help recreate a natural effect much similar to the Harman Curve with slightly elevated sub bass.
At this stage the general trend of people playing with infrasonics is to maintain the same tilt in the curve within the sub region all the way down to 5hz.
@@PoesAcoustics you framed what you think appropriate bass levels are in your video
That was a dad comment for the community. Absolutely agree but
But I am a dad. Turn that racket down you hooligans.
Simply put bass is fun. More bass more fun.
I watch your channel with great interest. I've got a Trinnov 9.4.[4|6] dedicated room I built. As I'm in the UK and have converted a timber framed garage. Wall build up involved 4by2 with 75mm Rockwool & 25mm air space/ 25mm Celotex (as it's outside so keep cool/warm) / 18mm Ply/2.5mm TecSound/12.5mm Accoustic PB/ Wall Treatments for defusion ect. It does sit on a concrete subbase, but then PIR ( Celotex ) insulation, 22m flooring then carpet ( black of course ). I did notice what I perceived as an improvement when I decoupled my 4 x Identical active subs from the floor. So, I put 2" Cedar blocks of wood, then IsoAccoustic decoupling feet and then my Sub's ( ¼ into the room at four corners ). Are you implying that really I should have left the subs in direct contact with the floor ? I would appreciate your comment Mathew.
Having subs acoustically against boundaries increases boundary gain and reduced SBIR by shifting it higher. But if you are talking about 4-6 inches, it’s not a huge issue. Having some feet to avoid walking or buzzing is still important.
I bet the reason most people like bass is because concrete floors don't shake your seat. If you got more of a feel of bass from your seat, you probably wouldn't ask for as much audible bass.
I say this having my home theater above a basement, and my 2 subs shake the couch and floor on those joists.
Ah, you talked about this later in the video.
Yup and obviously we agree on this point. I know it’s not the most practical solution. But I would like to see more work to decouple the floors instead.
@@PoesAcoustics Same. It's one of my biggest detergents to moving. I'll have to figure out how to build a floating floor that gives me the same feeling, and I'll lose height.
Also, no one else does that in KC, so I'm not even sure what to expect if I build one.
Stop saying SHOULD like there is some universal law that you and other pretentious people "above us" created. There is no SHOULD there is simply preference
THESE SUBS ARE AWESOME. THANKS MAN. WHAT SONG IS THIS? WhAT? I SAID WHAT SONG IS THIS?
I felt like this was an Bass-a-Holic Anonymous meeting.
As I am turning up the Bass - “stop it. You’re not 17 years old anymore in your clapped out $2000 car with $12,000 in audio gear.”
Me - 😅
But really though - that’s why profiles exist.
Great video.
Thanks!
Did you really need 4 RTJ subs to listen at 2-3dB rise? At what point is too much headroom an actual waste of funds?
I have dual SB16 Ultras in my family room setup with an open concept living space, and it’s not the theme park ride that I like, but it’s still plentiful.
It gets you better room response and lower distortion.
It’s not just about what number it can hit. In my case the four 18’s and four 12’s are used to keep distortion down, increase output/headroom at 20hz and below, and most importantly, minimize room mode issues. Remember I am running Waveforming.
Plus it is OK to turn it up for some silly shenanigans once in a while.
I have four JTR RS1s and I wouldn't consider myself a bassaholic. It evens the response across seats and I do run some solid boost down very deep, and the RS1s deliver that without strain. They also sound fantastic.
@@commanderrussels2612those are monster subs by themselves. Four of them must sound incredible.
On the topic of how to experience bass. What are your thoughts on subwoofer isolation feet like SVS Soundpath. Seems like it would work to decouple the sub from the room. If you have a floating room, (My theater is on a 2nd floor) wouldn't that take away from tactile bass? ...or at the least make it super sloppy.
I don’t think it actually does significantly. I would need to test it I guess. But my thought is that it primarily decoupled the cabinet to floor coupling. The air to floor coupling remains significant. But it might reduce bass. I’ve long wondered what would happen if you bolted a subwoofer to the floor.
I, for one, seek realistic, bombastic sound. The audio is different sitting inside the orchestra vs conducting the orchestra. Knowing the difference is how I gauge my system. Yes, the bass is impactful and impressive, but not invasive.
Seems to be age related even thlugh there are plenty of old farts that like bass. The 1 st stereo i got was bass full blast. As i get older i the bass seems to be less of a want but i still have 12 subs for ...i dont know...infrasonics? Whatever sounds good.
I agree with the point of needing to modify the space the sound will be used in. As a long time car audio enthusiast, I tell my friends just getting into the hobby: putting money into your vehicle, i.e. sound deadener, expansion foam, bracing, and chasing rattles and silencing them is more important than installing a stronger sub, or larger amps. The perceived loudness (and sometimes SPL) increases because the music isn't fighting road noise or panels slapping the metal shell. I LOVE "too much bass". But only if it's super clean, and the mids and highs keep up enough. It's easy to make bass, it's difficult to make music.
Yeah and as someone who used to be into this as well, getting someone to let you remove the entire interior of the car to do this is hard. Even if the actual cost isn’t that bad, it means you lose the car for a week or more, it looks insane to see your beautiful car ripped apart like that. I get it on both sides. I know what a difference this makes but also why so many don’t want to do it. And just like 99% of AV shops and integrators can’t design and build a room the way I do, 99% of car audio shops can’t do the damping/insulating correctly.
Dark side of bass….consuming your cargo area of your vehicle
That is true.
Just make sure Digital Don watches and comments on this video! LOL
Hi called me. He’s going to cut back on the salt…I mean bass.