I think instead of making HMs optional, the ideal solution would be to have a new type of move slot. Battle moves are the standard 4 slots we're all used to, and field moves are unlimited, but can only be used outside of battle. When you learn a move with a field effect, via HM or otherwise, you can choose to learn it as both a battle and field move, or as a field move only, not taking up a slot. The battle move portion of an HM can be freely forgotten because the field move remains. That way you can learn Cut as an early game attack, then replace it later on when you get something better without losing your ability to cut trees. That way you have the Zelda-esque key and lock progression that HMs enable without the drawbacks.
The problem with your HM design is that you're not only buffing Bug types with the changes to Cut. This is a highly distributed move, so you're giving a lot of Pokémon free good coverage against Psychic and Dark types. And then it will backfire again because then what is my incentive to use a Bug type? So, to make this change work as intended, you would need to remove Cut from a lot of Pokémon's learnsets, and thus forcing the player to use one of the few remnants, thus restricting teambuilding again
This is the main thing I want to balance out through the Dev Builds! I only kinda brushed over it in the video, but HM Learnsets are obviously going to need to be adjusted after these changes (Flash + Serene Grace being another... thing.), and figuring this out is gonna be one of the main mechanical foci for the first set in the run-up to the first public Preview Build.
This was really obvious with the crystal legacy rom hack. I think the solution is to remove cut almost entirely and replace its HM functionality with a set of moves that "cut". This could for example be moves that are affected by the ability "sharpness" (gen 9 ability). Another thing to consider would be allowing other methods of clearing trees, like pretty much any fire move or strong pokemon just straight up ripping through them.
I think the issue here is how much Cut is being buffed by, not necessarily buffing cut in general. I like the idea of making it a bug type move (honestly, bug needs better attacking moves here anyway, they don't get X-Scissor until gen 4) but it doesn't need to be 70 power. Bumping it to 60 would put it in that sweet spot where it's just strong enough to be useable in battle by a bug type but not quite good enough past the midgame to make it usable on other Pokemon.
@@yohanbosu Hidden Power still relies on IVs for both typing and BP, sure, there's probably spreads for a 70 BP HP Bug on most mons, but good luck finding them without RNG manip.
I think one of the biggest fixes for HMs would just be making them deletable. I recently played through Crystal Legacy and that allows you to teach over HM moves. I didn't feel like having a dedicated HM slave for that game, so my Slowking would just learn Surf, and I'd teach over it with Strength or Whirlpool or Waterfall when I needed to. It never bothered me. And just like in that game, Cut was made to be a bug-type move but essentially it's a bug-type Razor Leaf. It doesn't feel busted in that game even though a lot of mon can learn it. If you kept all the moves how they are in base game but just let people teach over them I feel like it wouldn't be that bad. Like another example I had was just keeping a few TMs for the elemental punches on me that my Pokemon knew and if I needed an HM I would teach over that, use it, then teach the TM in its place again. It gave me the option of either having a dedicated HM user or using my work-around, which I like, it gives the player options. A suggestion I have though would be to look at the Hoenn map, there's a lot of extra areas that we just don't go to. Small islands that are off the main path, there's a whole southern side of Dewford Island that we just don't see. Maybe you can make those areas accessible and then give them some more unique encounters. Like an idea I had was making an alternate path in Granite Cave blocked by needing Rock Smash, and that path could lead to the southern side of Dewford Island. And maybe you can find Meditite there or (I'm not sure if you're adding in all Pokemon up to gen 3) but Pokemon that aren't native to the original Hoenn games can be found there and some extra areas. Cause I was thinking about making my own hack after watching your update videos and I followed along with SPP when he was making Crystal Legacy, and that's something I'd wanna do. Maybe make the starters catchable elsewhere. Like on route 114 there's a waterfall you can go up and maybe Mudkip could be a surfing or fishing encounter but only up there (if you're able to set encounter data for a specific part of a route instead of the whole route, or just have it lead to a different, new route), and then Treecko would be the same but up the waterfall near Fortree City since that area seems more deciduous and like where a Treecko could be found, but then I'm not sure where I'd want to put Torchic. The idea would be that these would be all late game encounters, so you can get all three starters but you can't run the whole game with them. And then maybe for the Kanto and Johto starters they could be post game, maybe given out by finding Oak and Elm in the overworld, one given each time you beat the Elite Four and/or Steven. And I commented before on an earlier video but idk if you saw it, but when you were adding in those smaller trees along routes and in towns, it reminded me of the headbutt trees from gen 2 and I feel like that could be a great addition. Then you could put some unique encounters in those, adding in the ones that were in Johto as well as some Hoenn ones. Anyway thank you for reading, hope you at least think about some of these, I am excited to play and check out the hack when it's done!
I totally agree. Deletable HMs fixes most of my problems with them. They are still annoying but now I dont have to sacrifice more than one move slot. I can just replace existing HMs with new ones when I need them. My idea would be to simply let the player use the item itself as a field move as long as they have a compatible pokemon. So you walk up to a tree, you can Cut it down as long as you have the HM01 and a pokemon that CAN learn cut. You dont have to teach it cut. Of course, to go along with this the HMs would be forgettable so the item itself would just be a TM really with the added effect of allowing the use of the move outside the battle. For moves like fly that must be used through the menu, an additional system can be implemented where a pokemon's menu includes all HMs that it can learn and the player has obtained the item for. So if your inventory has an HM02, a Pidgey's menu would include Fly even if it does not know Fly. This fixes every issue I have with HMs while still preserving the spirit of HMs and does not require buffing the move anymore. (Though Cut should still be buffed because it would be really pointless otherwise to teach Cut to any of your pokemon.)
Some of my thoughts on the topic (not everything applies to gen 3 but are general thoughts): (1) Problems with changing types has already been mentioned by other commenters and are 100% true. (2) Making HMs optional is misguided in my opinion. The desire likely comes from the HMs being useless fighting moves in the real game, but if you make them optional by removing the blocks in the overworld, you remove one of the few interactive elements in the wild parts of the overworld. At least for me the overworld is really important, and even underused, but removing even more certainly won't help that. (3) Reducing HMs to a Pokemon based power, like any Zigzagoon can use cut, feels weird, but consider the reversed situation. If it would have always been like this, introducing HMs would feel even weirder. I think this is just a product of us being used to it - still, it is certainly a strong change for a "faithful" remake. (4) A solid implementation would be to allow more moves to replace the HMs. Cut can be done by any slashing move (see sharpness ability), flash can be done by any light providing move, like many electric or fire moves, rock smash can be done by many fighting moves. But this would have a similar effect to (3), where it pretty much becomes irrelevant because you are going to have a pokemon that can do this anyway. The possible moves would need to be restricted, e.g., flamethrower can not be used as a light source, as it can not be "cast" consistently. (5) Instead of grouping moves, you could also group Pokemon attributes. Charmander has the fire on its tail, so it can be used a light source akin to thought (4). Scyther can clearly cut trees. Nidoking can clearly smash rocks or rip out trees. You can clearly ride on a Lapras, on the other hand a luvdisc can not do surf. Larger birds can fly, smaller ones not. This makes it a bit more realistic, too. (5) Some HMs, like flash, could also be replaced by an item. Flash could be a flashlight or lamp. Dive could be obtained by getting scuba gear. Makes it a bit more realistic and is also valid from the narrative. Why do we need gym leader permission to use an HM move that they aren't even related to? (6) Following (5), HMs, or the ability to do certain things, could be connected to an instructor that teaches you how to use it. Not in the way of a dumb tutorial, but a small challenge that is related to the ability. Flash requires you to go into a dark cave with the instructor. Cut requires you to do some clean up in an overgrown forest, ... I honestly dont think there is a faithful rework of them that goes beyond power and chance changes, as you did, but I feel like there are so many good possibilities how they could be integrated in newer games. Real shame that they are viewed as an annoyance.
I’d argue against replacing HMs with items, since that ultimately gets rid of the point of HMs in the first place - the idea that you’re working together with your Pokémon’s capabilities to explore the world. I think that making it so a bunch of similar moves, including at least one endgame-viable one, can operate as the HM once you’ve unlocked it with the right gym badge is a great one, though. It keeps the idea of making HMs something you actively think about while team building, while still making it so you don’t need to run Rock Smash and Flash in victory road. I also legitimately think that just making it so you can overwrite HMs and having either infinite TMs or legends/scarvi’s memory of every move your Pokémon has learned and ability to relearn it freely would fix the situation nicely. The biggest problems with HMs imo are in earlygame, where you can’t erase HM moves until you’ve got like 6 or 7 badges and so each one is a permanent commitment to choking off a space in a Pokémon’s moveset, and in lategame, when you’ve taught your Pokémon all the TM moves you want for their final builds and now teaching them a HM again to get through, say, Meteor Falls to a superboss would mean overwriting a move that you have no way of getting back. Letting the player overwrite HMs fixes the earlygame problem (and also lets you reteach things before fighting Steven instead of having to go after him with a team of 5 + one HM buddy), and letting players reteach a Pokémon TM moves it’s learned before means that you should never find that you can’t get a move back if you overwrite it.
My idea would be to simply let the player use the item itself as a field move as long as they have a compatible pokemon. So you walk up to a tree, you can Cut it down as long as you have the HM01 and a pokemon that CAN learn cut. You dont have to teach it cut. Of course, to go along with this the HMs would be forgettable so the item itself would just be a TM really with the added effect of allowing the use of the move outside the battle. For moves like fly that must be used through the menu, an additional system can be implemented where a pokemon's menu includes all HMs that it can learn and the player has obtained the item for. So if your inventory has an HM02, a Pidgey's menu would include Fly even if it does not know Fly. This fixes every issue I have with HMs while still preserving the spirit of HMs and does not require buffing the move anymore. (Though Cut should still be buffed because it would be really pointless otherwise to teach Cut to any of your pokemon.)
I’d also like the moves way more idk specific Like I’m not ok with making just any old fighting move = rock smash that in my mind is not plausible same with the other HMs.. Rock smash effect coming from the move like brick break, karate chop, dynamic punch,or cross chop makes far more sense thematically imo then a move like counter low kick..the effects should be reserve for certain moves not just give to just any fighting type move. Sorry if it seems like I’m nitpicking. Maybe a pkmn can use the strength HM effect by using the moves Superpower Seismic Toss an Vital throw Arm thrust maybe Slam For Cut I’d like the method to be more spread out not just slash I’d like moves like Air cutter, Razor leaf, Fury Cutter, Leaf Blade to work like cut on the environment. I’d also like muddy water to function like surf
I like the idea of HMs being a 5th move slot, optional to use in battle. However, a pokemon can only learn one HM at a time. The water HMs could upgrade to include Dive and Waterfall when you earn badges so it stayed in one slot but always acts as surf in combat. This makes teaching HMs to your team an advantage rather than a hinderance. That way the moves can remain quite weak. Weak moves with unique secondary effects like the one you came up with for flash are really cool. Side note: a system where you can only use the same amount of pokemon as your opponent would be cool! A system like online battles where you see your opponent's team and pick your team from your party. Love the videos!
I’ve always wanted to see beach sand take on an encounter table. With the sheer number of water types in ALL the early gens, I always wondered why I couldn’t run into krabby, clamperl, or maybe even a staryu at the water’s edge.
Yea most games dont have many early water types. And when you do get Surf, Super Rod etc. it feels a bit overwhelming to suddenly have so many options and you dont get to raise most of the ocean pokemon from the start of the game ever.
Another thing you could consider with Flash, is giving it the effect of increasing the next move used against the target pokemon. It being illuminated and more visible and therefore making it easier to hit, which could have some usage in making lower accuracy but high power moves more viable and giving it some use in double battles which were introduced in this Gen.
@@SinNun-tx5jp yeah, exactly. give it a timed duration, 5 turns being pretty standard in pokemon, and you turn it from a pure last ditch move to a setup move similar to a lightscreen or tailwind effect. can also pair it with abilities that lower accuracy like Hustle.
I appreciate very much the idea. If it's 5 turns then you would want the accuracy buff to be low. 5 turns +50% accuracy on a spammer of OHKO moves would be disgusting. So I would say something like +10% or *125%(adds 1/4 of the standard accuracy changing 80% into 100%) I think buffs like +20% or *133% would be better suited if it's only a 3 turns boost. A sort of tail wind for accuracy. That would be very nice.
@@louiseb3146 exactly, you want to incentivise the blizzards and thunders, not fissures and horn drills. i'd think the 5 turn boost is most in line with the other team wide boosting moves so its easier to remember for the player.
IF you want, you could make Flash a move that lowers the enemy's accuracy 2 times instead of 1, and then have 1 of it go away after a turn. I feel that would not only make Flash make sense as a move, since some light stays in your eyes, while some fades away, and it also would make it pretty useable for a pokemon to have it on it's team. It might be too op if anything. And finally giving the bugs a usable move is really really important (Looking at you Armaldo)
What I think could be done with HM would be that similar move could be used instead of the HM as a field move. For exemple, any slashing move could be used instead of cut etc…
I do prefer this idea compared to the traditional HM system, i think. It might be a bit odd to match some HMs to TM moves, like Rock Smash in particular, but I'm sure there would be options.
@@lo0katmyn4me Surely punching/kicking/tail-whipping/tackling moves with enough power would be a good fit (like iron-tail, or mega punch, or rolling kick)
@lo0katmyn4me I actually think Dive, Surf, and Fly are trickier, but it shouldn't be an issue since they're all actually pretty nice to have in battle. A lot of water type moves are shot type and even flying type moves mostly make blades and beaks come to mind. Aqua jet from later gens maybe? Brave bird and sky attack? Splash would actually be kinda funny as an option
@@rewrose2838 I guess i was thinking a bit more limited in scope, admittedly. Iron tail and mega punch seem like good options, but i'm not as sold on rolling kick.
Consider Field Stat Checks > HMs: Party members may be deployed to hold a boulder, enter a tight crevice, activate a pressure plate, and so on. Stats like Atk could be checked for boulders, Size for small spaces, and Wt. for pressure-sensitive tiles. Tougher obstacles may even incur some cost to HP, PP, or even IVs, which may be replenishable at Pokemon Centers. All sorts of interesting scenarios, new puzzles, and challenging gauntlets (i.e. fighting with a sub-6 team after deploying some Pokemon) can be built around these.
The simplest solution I think would be to either move the Move Deleter to an earlier point in the game or just make HM moves replaceable with new levelup moves
The only channel I've ever turned notifications on since the feature was added to UA-cam. Thank you for making something so interesting and entertaining!
Honestly, I think Rock Smash would be fine at a full 40 bp and plus guaranteed defense drop. That basically turns it into inverted Power-Up Punch. True that sorta invalidates Tailwhip/Leer, except no one really uses those moves outside of early game anyway. Besides, technically Tailwhip/Leer would also still retain the situational advantage of lowering the defense of both opponents in a double battle.
Other hacks have done this and I think you should too, turn those HMs into key items the player has to unlock. Cut is now an axe, rock smash is a pickaxe, and flash is a flashlight. Them becoming adventuring tools would easily fit in with the theming of the game while also eliminating the need of an HM slave for these objectively bad moves.
Or the system used in Unbound, where to use the move outside of battle you only need to have the HM and a Pokemon on the party that can learn it and you don't need to teach the HM at all.
Perhaps you can make the move deleter be moved to a midgame town and if you haven't already decided, make HM deletable. You could probably also consolidate the Dive and waterfall HMs by having only one of water HMs do both, but the function be active when the badge comes into play.
I see a few comments suggesting to make the Move Deleter accessible in the early game, and I figured I'd add my thoughts to that idea. I really like when Pokémon Centers are a hotspot of Trainer activity, so folding a lot of the game's more tucked away features into the Centers would make a lot of sense. Thinking a bit on the side of Unova, Alola, and the general vibe of anime Centers, where they offer more services and really LOOK like a place Trainers go to rest. Though I also like the idea of some kind of third common building for something like this, making it so that cities can have any combination of PokéCenter, PokéMart, and... idk... PokéHQ/PokéLounge or something.
I think its important to try to figure out what your actual goals are for HMs and your changes before you listen to anyone here. Lots of suggestions, many good, but if you don't know what your goals are in a formal way, it'll be hard to ensure that you find the right solution. You mention some things in the video, but its hard to tell how important those things are to you. Additionally while two sets of goals may sound similar, they may produce wildly different executions and changes. Examples: 1. Reduce the pain of having an HM on your mon. 2. Reduce the incentive to fully load a pokemon as an "HM-Carrier". 3. Preserve a reason to keep pokemon who may be worse in the late game. Potential Solution: Make HMs either scale with level, or badges so they grow in power. Increase type variety/reduce type redundancy of HM moves. Change up HM learn-sets both based on when pokemon first appear, and also to benefit traditionally under-performing types/mons as exploration partners. Put many extra "hidden" areas in the game behind HM usage, and make them rewarding to find, and backtrack for, tutorialize this with early opportunities which help teach players to explore. 1. Increase the fun of having an HM on your mon. 2. Make HMs into naturally desirable moves so you don't need an "HM-Carrier". 3. Pose an interesting team building challenge. Potential Solution: Give HMs stronger in-battle utility or damage in battle to make them more interesting from a team building perspective, and make them more fun to have. Limit which mons learn HMs at each point in the game to make reaching optional areas more challenging due to trainer pokemon. Additionally you're likely to get two different ideas about what HMs are trying to accomplish in the original design, if you ask two different people. And since HMs are attacks in the game, you can't really adjust them without affecting the feel of the game over-all, so you should really consider the kind of overall experience you want to deliver. Someone doing a difficulty rom might choose to lower the PP of nearly all non-HM moves to give HMs a place on the team not by buffing them, but by making them really good for getting past long routes due to reliability. While someone creating a game primarily about exploration may have less trainer battles over-all in favor of more wild encounters, so they may choose to include new rest-stops, berry trees, and opportunities on a route to heal up for more exploration, making PP a really poor way to balance HMs. Ask the original design lots and lots of questions, try to figure out the original intent, where it worked, where it didn't, and why it didn't. And always ask yourself if there is a simpler, or more core version of the answer you've found. Get to the very root of the design challenge and problems.
An suggestion for HMs: Make it so that a pokemon can use an HM even if it hasn't learned the move? Only mons that can originally use the HMs can utilize them, and only after obtaining the HM as well as after the player got the right badge for it. Example: An Zigzagoon could use the field move cut only after obtaining the badge *and* been given the Cut HM in Rustboro. But it wouldn't be able to use it in battle unless taught. This still gives the player reasons to use certain mons without having to waste a few move slots.
I think a good approach to HMs would be to make all of them completely optional. You can travel between cities freely but HMs are used for exploration to find items and stronger pokémon. Of course, it is Hoenn, so Surf will inevitably be mandatory, and removing Dive would be complicated because of the Groudon / Kyogre storyline
Have you considered having flash as a steel type "muddy water"? You could set the move's power to 60 or something similar and keep the 30% accuracy drop( or increase the odds) while making it usable and meaningful. Additionally having more moves that hit both enemies avaliable in the game helps add more charm to double battles!
I think one way to address the HM overworld problem is if you could tie actions (e.g. cut trees, move boulders, smash rocks etc) to badges instead of moves. In gen 3 scripting, there are events where the game checks for certain flags that trigger when you get a badge, and if those exist, the game lets you progress further. Perhaps you can tie that into overworld HM actions, forgoing HM use. So let's say... cutting a tree. The game would check for the flag that triggers when you beat roxanne, and if the flag is there, the tree automatically gets cut. Same thing for boulders, rocks, surfing. So all you really need is the badge, and not pokemon that knows a specific HM move.
In my opinion, a simple solution to the problem of bad HMs is to integrate their utility into other moves. Don’t have cut? Use X-scissor, air cutter, or slash instead. Lots of options!
One slight tweak to your suggestion for Flash might be to give the move 90% accuracy, 100% chance to lower accuracy, and 55% chance to flinch (technically it's 55.5555...% to get the full accuracy, so maybe consider 56%). This way the odds shake out roughly the same but you remove a potential negative user experience when using a move that "hits" but has no effect.
Whoa... a status move with a chance of flinching... thats pretty interesting. And it makes sense with Flash. I like it a lot! Juat make sure Jirachi with Serene Grace doesnt have access to it lol. Maybe it would be ok for Togetic (if not adding togekiss), Dunsparce, and Blissey since their speed is so slow and won't be out speeding anyways most of the time. Edit: just signed up for the dev testing! I hope you consider me to help with your project!
I wouldn't mind if you elaborated on your "radical" idea for balancing HMs, the more information and ideas are out here the better the discussion can be.
HMs should really be unlocks, held back with techniques learned by NPCs or Key Items given. This combined with certain Pokémon able to execute the techniques... and this last part I would check each Pokémon separately to decide if they could learn the technique or not based on the physique, lore or moveset of the Pokémon. This way you can greatly expand the list of Pokémon that can use the moves, yet still keep the gatekeeping that HMs are designed for.
As you’re already leaning in heavier on the Ranger aspect, I’d love to see you have the HMs work like the Poke Assists in Ranger. So not that the HMs would be usable by all pokemon of a specific type, but each pokemon would be able to an HM move based on their design. Or alternatively, it could be fun to have to interact with a ranger and they give you a pokemon to follow you until you leave the route and that Pokémon’s HM matches whatever obstacle is prevalent in that route.
I would make waterfall a dragon type move, flash a steel type bite, maybe rock smash like a rock type freeze dry. Turn strength to a fighting type, cut to grass maybe steel. And buff fly and dive a bit
I feel like cut and rock smash could have unique interactions. Make them both normal type moves, but work like Freeze Dry. Cut would be super effective against Grass types and rock smash would be super effective against rock types. Alternatively, make strength super effective against rock instead. You could also stand to buff rock smash more, modern rock smash has 40 power and it’s still pretty bad. All an opponent has to do is swap out to stop it from snowballing even with 100% defense drop, acid spray is only ok for that reason, despite the -2 sp def. Giving it a guaranteed -2 def or raising the power to 50 or 60 would probably help make it more viable as well. It could be viable in trainer battles, but the more advanced AI of gym leaders and other boss fights should in an ideal situation make them want to swap
While all the focus on how HMs work is important, there is also their availability to consider. At least some of their viability can be waved away by what point in the game they're obtained. For example, Flash could be overpowered with no problems if you don't get it until near the end of the game. Perhaps instead of buffing HM moves, you could instead make stronger later game moves have the same effects, so that they're upgrades of a sort. Just a thought, and I really like the direction you're taking with this project. Good luck!
Idea for cut: 30 base power pr bug evolution. 1st stage 30, 2nd stage 60, 3rd stage 90 Wont make it super spammable by everyone, but pretty powerful for the otherwise underwhelming bugs
With flash - I'd suggest making the flinch chance 30% instead (with a 100% accuracy drop). That way serene grace users don't flinch the opponent every single turn.
Flash was not as bad as people think. I've used a moonlight+flash+bite umbreon with a thunderwave lanturn and a fly + confuse ray crobat as important mons in Pokemon crystal, where they were vital do defeat Red with a level 50 team haha. Considering your opponent usually don't switch, lowering accuracy after those early gen paralisis or sleep was pretty good
My ideal solution to HMs (but idk how it could be coded) would be to just let any Pokemon that can learn the hm use it outside of combat even if the Pokemon hasn't learn the HM.. but the ability to use the HM would still be locked until the time in the original game where u get the HM CDs
I feel like making hms optional is the best way to do it. Black and white only needed you to use cut once, and that was the only hm needed in the whole game (fly is always needed though) I do think that being required to use a water and flying type in every pre gen 7 game is what makes me not want to replay them the most. I've definitely used all the flyers in gen 3, but theres still some surfers. I'd try to expand the learnset of fly and surf to give more variety than the original games
I think the main problem with HMs is that they are tied to the move set. If you give each pokemon a dedicates slot for just the field usage of an HM you solve the slave issue and encourage larger teams that change depending on where you are planning to explore.
This seems to be a very ambitious project, the first time I came across this I thought you were just going to enlarge the map but since you are trying to fix all its problem would you also fix the physical special split. I mean do what gen 4 did
Serene Grace will make Flash broken by always making opponents flinch and drop accuracy. You can use it 6 times and make all of their attacks miss most of the time.
Oof. I must admit I don’t like the idea for Flash. Maybe make it work like a special version of Fake-Out? idk Appreciate your effort for this project, though!
Well ...Why don't you use the system used in the alola games to use hms? Like, the player could just use the Pokenav to acess tha system and then press in which hm they want to use, but off course, you would just get acess to actually use those hms once you progress throught the game. For example , after you beat Norman, the normal type gym leader, the Pokenav it's updated and now give you the option to Surf. Also, when it's updated you could just make someone say it to the player or maybe a message from Professor in the Match call appears to warning about the new hm you can now use or something like that idk
Will you be adding the fairy type and implementing the physical/special split from Gen IV and later (or at least changing the stats of some pokemon like Gengar and Absol to actually be able to make use of their stab types) in this hack? What about later evolutions like Dusknoir and Roserade?
I think eternal x did it best. Cut is grass type. 50 bp, but it always crit. Not too strong but a garuenteed crit made for some unique strats. Never felt overpowered to use Id make flash work like no guard for 5 turns. So its a risk reward where lower accuracy moves can shine for you, but also your opponents as well. I guess balancing sheer cold and fissure around this could be difficult. Or flash could work like lock on for both you and your oppenent during the next turn. These are my suggestions, but i can already tell you're on the right track for balancing these hm's
This is a fun project to follow! Have you thought about adding a minimap? With the way you are expanding the areas, it seems like it might be necessary to avoid players getting lost.
Flash could maybe confuse? I think it would fit thematically. Also I think the new cut is identical to hidden power bug: a 70 base power bug with 100% accuracy. I would change it a little bit so pokemons have a benefit from being able to learn cut as every mon can learn hp bug anyways. I would suggest raising the power and lowering the accuracy or maybe add a flinch chance or something.
@@yohanbosuCut would be a more available and WAY more reliable way of having a decent power Bug move than Hidden Power. Additionally, if there was to be a Normal move that's Super Effective against a type then Grass (among a few others) should be the LAST ones to suffer that due to having a lot of disadvantages already.
I'm not a fan of hm's in general. One thing I think would be interesting is change hm to a consumable item, (but there's potential for soft locking). I've seen some hackroms use key items as hm's, which was fun. What I don't like like hm's is the fact that I have to was slots on my party on pokemon just to explore.
I end up with slaves no matter what I do in vanilla RSE. I'm not a huge fan of water type pokemon in general, not that I hate them but they just don't speak to me. I always end up catching something that can learn all three and backtrack to the PC when I need it, which is frustrating. Even though the moves themselves are good, if my pokemon team doesn't learn it, it feels bad. I sort of get where you're coming from with pokemon and harmony with the environment, but at the end of the day HMs will mean HM Slaves for someone, even if the move itself is good. I personally think that you can have more than one solution to environmental "problems." For example, you can still have the HM Surf as-is in the game, but also give access to a key item through an optional sidequest. For example, maybe you receive a surfboard from someone because you gave someone a pokemon that you taught Surf to and they don't need their surfboard anymore, so now it's yours. Or maybe you can add another difficult battle on a similar level to a gym battle for it. Or as a reward for exploring an entirely new custom route or cave. Or maybe the same guy who gives you flash will sell you a flashlight for a relatively handsome price. Really the takeaway I think I want this comment to have is, rather than only seeing key items as "removing HMs," try instead to see it as another way to add new optional content. If your team of pokemon isn't suited for the task at hand, don't force them to bench teammates and adjust their team to achieve harmony with the region-- let them have a new way of defeating obstacles, even if it's more of a struggle than simply switching the team.
Honestly it might be a lot but a retrxture of the game would be really cool, hoenns tile packs look so basic in comparison to even FRLG if they used tiles from maybe BW or DP
I am personally not a fan of how drastic the change to cut is but will save talking about that to other people. But do have some thoughts about the other HMs. For Flash instead of giving it a 90% chance to lower accuracy, why not just make it have 90% accuracy and a 100% chance to lower it then still the 50% chance to flinch? Then while I also get removing dive and waterfall why not just make them sidegrades to surf instead of removing them? Like maybe make waterfall have it's finch chance like in older gens then give it more base power, like 95 base power while reducing surf to it's current 90 base power. Or even just having them both be 90 base power with one having a secondary effect while the other can hit multiple targets. Then finally dive I feel like could just be removed fine, or it could be kept and increase it's power to something like 120 or maybe even higher depending on how balancing goes. Higher one turn damage with being untargetable for a turn at the cost of less overall damage. Would also personally like to see TMs being able to be forgotten and learned freely without having to wait until basically the late game to remove them. Believe that opens up a lot more design space with them. Then you don't need to do something like making cut a move that needs to be viable through the entire game and could turn it into something of a more utility focused move like rock smash or even just using it in the early game for certain areas or until the player gets better neutral normal type moves.
I' loving your world changes, I always wanted to make my own pokemon game but with a larger wild area more like the anime. With older graphics and systems I understand this would get boring with massive repeating maps but if done correctly making for example the first Forrest making that a bit more wild and larger but not to big and annoying to get though but it has more off side secrets to explore. My point being try to take some inspiration from the anime for locations but dont make things large and annoiyng just rewards for exploring out of your way.
So what if pokemon had the ability to use HMs based on species? For the sake of simplification, if a pokemon has a HM in it's learnset it can always use it. So Peliper would always be able to use Surf and Fly but Wingull wouldn't for balancing reasons
Cut has no thematic reason to be Bug. It only has 3 types thay work: Normal, because it was already that type. Steel, because it's JP name is a sword technique. And Fighting for the same reason as Steel. Also hilariously if it was changed to way you described it during Gen 3, it would be on every good physical attacker that could learn it because it's better that Hidden Power Bug, which is needed to deal with Celebi in competitive.
Might sound like I'm grasping at straws, pun not intended, but on top of balance, it's also based on Bug being super effective on Grass, and the still surprisingly unknown hidden mechanic that Cut can clear out patches of tall grass!
Why not just do like Gen 7 and have a device that say calls in Nuzleaf, Nincada, or Absol to use cut, Swellow or Tropius to use Fly, Sharpedo to Surf, Vigoroth to use Strength, Chimecho, Spoink, or Sabeleye to use Flash, and maybe Wailmer can handle the rest of the water ones? If not, then, Luvdisc or Whiscash for Whirlpool, Milotic for Waterfall, and Wailmer/Lord for Dive? That way you have a gen 3 theme for all of them, just leave the entirety of the HMs alone but as TMs. I don't genuinely think outside of exactly Surf that anyone really likes HMs. At least Surf is strong and useful in battle. The rest are pointless and antiquated.
The changes to Cut sound familiar... Oh yeah, SmithPlays Pokemon did almost the exact same thing with Crystal Legacy. That said, I do think it was a good change.
Love your videos and am very excited for this game, I do just wanna request that you please stop using the word “slave” when referring to pokemon that spam HMs. It just makes a lot of ppl uncomfortable and isn’t really necessary. Most ppl call them HM companions or friends now :)
I personally would prefer if HMs weren't moves that have to be learned but rather an inherent ability of the Pokémon. I disagree with your reasoning about this not being the right approach. Firstly, your argument hinges on the idea that it must be based on types, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. An alternative could be that all Pokémon capable of learning Cut could use the move inherently, thereby avoiding the issue. If you're still opposed to this, I would suggest that many moves could be adapted to cut and smash rocks and other HMs. For example, all slashing and punching moves. I think your approach, unfortunately, will not only be a nightmare for balancing but also unenjoyable for the player and restrictive for team building. The way HMs were implemented in early Pokémon games is inherently flawed, and simply improving them is just a superficial fix that doesn't address the fundamental problems. In my opinion, Surf is just as problematic as moves like Flash, Rock Smash, and Cut, albeit in a different way. Surf trivializes many Pokémon's strengths and weaknesses, while also diminishing other potentially interesting challenges for the player.
I think instead of making HMs optional, the ideal solution would be to have a new type of move slot. Battle moves are the standard 4 slots we're all used to, and field moves are unlimited, but can only be used outside of battle. When you learn a move with a field effect, via HM or otherwise, you can choose to learn it as both a battle and field move, or as a field move only, not taking up a slot. The battle move portion of an HM can be freely forgotten because the field move remains. That way you can learn Cut as an early game attack, then replace it later on when you get something better without losing your ability to cut trees. That way you have the Zelda-esque key and lock progression that HMs enable without the drawbacks.
My thoughts exactly
The problem with your HM design is that you're not only buffing Bug types with the changes to Cut. This is a highly distributed move, so you're giving a lot of Pokémon free good coverage against Psychic and Dark types. And then it will backfire again because then what is my incentive to use a Bug type? So, to make this change work as intended, you would need to remove Cut from a lot of Pokémon's learnsets, and thus forcing the player to use one of the few remnants, thus restricting teambuilding again
This is the main thing I want to balance out through the Dev Builds! I only kinda brushed over it in the video, but HM Learnsets are obviously going to need to be adjusted after these changes (Flash + Serene Grace being another... thing.), and figuring this out is gonna be one of the main mechanical foci for the first set in the run-up to the first public Preview Build.
This was really obvious with the crystal legacy rom hack. I think the solution is to remove cut almost entirely and replace its HM functionality with a set of moves that "cut". This could for example be moves that are affected by the ability "sharpness" (gen 9 ability). Another thing to consider would be allowing other methods of clearing trees, like pretty much any fire move or strong pokemon just straight up ripping through them.
I think the issue here is how much Cut is being buffed by, not necessarily buffing cut in general. I like the idea of making it a bug type move (honestly, bug needs better attacking moves here anyway, they don't get X-Scissor until gen 4) but it doesn't need to be 70 power. Bumping it to 60 would put it in that sweet spot where it's just strong enough to be useable in battle by a bug type but not quite good enough past the midgame to make it usable on other Pokemon.
This comment is wrong because the new cut is identical to hidden power bug, which can be learned by every Pokémon
@@yohanbosu Hidden Power still relies on IVs for both typing and BP, sure, there's probably spreads for a 70 BP HP Bug on most mons, but good luck finding them without RNG manip.
I think one of the biggest fixes for HMs would just be making them deletable. I recently played through Crystal Legacy and that allows you to teach over HM moves. I didn't feel like having a dedicated HM slave for that game, so my Slowking would just learn Surf, and I'd teach over it with Strength or Whirlpool or Waterfall when I needed to. It never bothered me. And just like in that game, Cut was made to be a bug-type move but essentially it's a bug-type Razor Leaf. It doesn't feel busted in that game even though a lot of mon can learn it. If you kept all the moves how they are in base game but just let people teach over them I feel like it wouldn't be that bad. Like another example I had was just keeping a few TMs for the elemental punches on me that my Pokemon knew and if I needed an HM I would teach over that, use it, then teach the TM in its place again. It gave me the option of either having a dedicated HM user or using my work-around, which I like, it gives the player options.
A suggestion I have though would be to look at the Hoenn map, there's a lot of extra areas that we just don't go to. Small islands that are off the main path, there's a whole southern side of Dewford Island that we just don't see. Maybe you can make those areas accessible and then give them some more unique encounters. Like an idea I had was making an alternate path in Granite Cave blocked by needing Rock Smash, and that path could lead to the southern side of Dewford Island. And maybe you can find Meditite there or (I'm not sure if you're adding in all Pokemon up to gen 3) but Pokemon that aren't native to the original Hoenn games can be found there and some extra areas. Cause I was thinking about making my own hack after watching your update videos and I followed along with SPP when he was making Crystal Legacy, and that's something I'd wanna do. Maybe make the starters catchable elsewhere. Like on route 114 there's a waterfall you can go up and maybe Mudkip could be a surfing or fishing encounter but only up there (if you're able to set encounter data for a specific part of a route instead of the whole route, or just have it lead to a different, new route), and then Treecko would be the same but up the waterfall near Fortree City since that area seems more deciduous and like where a Treecko could be found, but then I'm not sure where I'd want to put Torchic. The idea would be that these would be all late game encounters, so you can get all three starters but you can't run the whole game with them. And then maybe for the Kanto and Johto starters they could be post game, maybe given out by finding Oak and Elm in the overworld, one given each time you beat the Elite Four and/or Steven.
And I commented before on an earlier video but idk if you saw it, but when you were adding in those smaller trees along routes and in towns, it reminded me of the headbutt trees from gen 2 and I feel like that could be a great addition. Then you could put some unique encounters in those, adding in the ones that were in Johto as well as some Hoenn ones.
Anyway thank you for reading, hope you at least think about some of these, I am excited to play and check out the hack when it's done!
I totally agree. Deletable HMs fixes most of my problems with them. They are still annoying but now I dont have to sacrifice more than one move slot. I can just replace existing HMs with new ones when I need them.
My idea would be to simply let the player use the item itself as a field move as long as they have a compatible pokemon. So you walk up to a tree, you can Cut it down as long as you have the HM01 and a pokemon that CAN learn cut. You dont have to teach it cut.
Of course, to go along with this the HMs would be forgettable so the item itself would just be a TM really with the added effect of allowing the use of the move outside the battle.
For moves like fly that must be used through the menu, an additional system can be implemented where a pokemon's menu includes all HMs that it can learn and the player has obtained the item for. So if your inventory has an HM02, a Pidgey's menu would include Fly even if it does not know Fly.
This fixes every issue I have with HMs while still preserving the spirit of HMs and does not require buffing the move anymore. (Though Cut should still be buffed because it would be really pointless otherwise to teach Cut to any of your pokemon.)
Some of my thoughts on the topic (not everything applies to gen 3 but are general thoughts):
(1) Problems with changing types has already been mentioned by other commenters and are 100% true.
(2) Making HMs optional is misguided in my opinion. The desire likely comes from the HMs being useless fighting moves in the real game, but if you make them optional by removing the blocks in the overworld, you remove one of the few interactive elements in the wild parts of the overworld. At least for me the overworld is really important, and even underused, but removing even more certainly won't help that.
(3) Reducing HMs to a Pokemon based power, like any Zigzagoon can use cut, feels weird, but consider the reversed situation. If it would have always been like this, introducing HMs would feel even weirder. I think this is just a product of us being used to it - still, it is certainly a strong change for a "faithful" remake.
(4) A solid implementation would be to allow more moves to replace the HMs. Cut can be done by any slashing move (see sharpness ability), flash can be done by any light providing move, like many electric or fire moves, rock smash can be done by many fighting moves. But this would have a similar effect to (3), where it pretty much becomes irrelevant because you are going to have a pokemon that can do this anyway. The possible moves would need to be restricted, e.g., flamethrower can not be used as a light source, as it can not be "cast" consistently.
(5) Instead of grouping moves, you could also group Pokemon attributes. Charmander has the fire on its tail, so it can be used a light source akin to thought (4). Scyther can clearly cut trees. Nidoking can clearly smash rocks or rip out trees. You can clearly ride on a Lapras, on the other hand a luvdisc can not do surf. Larger birds can fly, smaller ones not. This makes it a bit more realistic, too.
(5) Some HMs, like flash, could also be replaced by an item. Flash could be a flashlight or lamp. Dive could be obtained by getting scuba gear. Makes it a bit more realistic and is also valid from the narrative. Why do we need gym leader permission to use an HM move that they aren't even related to?
(6) Following (5), HMs, or the ability to do certain things, could be connected to an instructor that teaches you how to use it. Not in the way of a dumb tutorial, but a small challenge that is related to the ability. Flash requires you to go into a dark cave with the instructor. Cut requires you to do some clean up in an overgrown forest, ...
I honestly dont think there is a faithful rework of them that goes beyond power and chance changes, as you did, but I feel like there are so many good possibilities how they could be integrated in newer games. Real shame that they are viewed as an annoyance.
I’d argue against replacing HMs with items, since that ultimately gets rid of the point of HMs in the first place - the idea that you’re working together with your Pokémon’s capabilities to explore the world.
I think that making it so a bunch of similar moves, including at least one endgame-viable one, can operate as the HM once you’ve unlocked it with the right gym badge is a great one, though. It keeps the idea of making HMs something you actively think about while team building, while still making it so you don’t need to run Rock Smash and Flash in victory road.
I also legitimately think that just making it so you can overwrite HMs and having either infinite TMs or legends/scarvi’s memory of every move your Pokémon has learned and ability to relearn it freely would fix the situation nicely. The biggest problems with HMs imo are in earlygame, where you can’t erase HM moves until you’ve got like 6 or 7 badges and so each one is a permanent commitment to choking off a space in a Pokémon’s moveset, and in lategame, when you’ve taught your Pokémon all the TM moves you want for their final builds and now teaching them a HM again to get through, say, Meteor Falls to a superboss would mean overwriting a move that you have no way of getting back. Letting the player overwrite HMs fixes the earlygame problem (and also lets you reteach things before fighting Steven instead of having to go after him with a team of 5 + one HM buddy), and letting players reteach a Pokémon TM moves it’s learned before means that you should never find that you can’t get a move back if you overwrite it.
My idea would be to simply let the player use the item itself as a field move as long as they have a compatible pokemon. So you walk up to a tree, you can Cut it down as long as you have the HM01 and a pokemon that CAN learn cut. You dont have to teach it cut.
Of course, to go along with this the HMs would be forgettable so the item itself would just be a TM really with the added effect of allowing the use of the move outside the battle.
For moves like fly that must be used through the menu, an additional system can be implemented where a pokemon's menu includes all HMs that it can learn and the player has obtained the item for. So if your inventory has an HM02, a Pidgey's menu would include Fly even if it does not know Fly.
This fixes every issue I have with HMs while still preserving the spirit of HMs and does not require buffing the move anymore. (Though Cut should still be buffed because it would be really pointless otherwise to teach Cut to any of your pokemon.)
I’d also like the moves way more idk specific
Like I’m not ok with making just any old fighting move = rock smash that in my mind is not plausible same with the other HMs..
Rock smash effect coming from the move like brick break, karate chop, dynamic punch,or cross chop makes far more sense thematically imo then a move like counter low kick..the effects should be reserve for certain moves not just give to just any fighting type move. Sorry if it seems like I’m nitpicking.
Maybe a pkmn can use the strength HM effect by using the moves Superpower Seismic Toss an Vital throw Arm thrust maybe Slam
For Cut I’d like the method to be more spread out not just slash I’d like moves like Air cutter, Razor leaf, Fury Cutter, Leaf Blade to work like cut on the environment.
I’d also like muddy water to function like surf
I like the idea of HMs being a 5th move slot, optional to use in battle. However, a pokemon can only learn one HM at a time. The water HMs could upgrade to include Dive and Waterfall when you earn badges so it stayed in one slot but always acts as surf in combat. This makes teaching HMs to your team an advantage rather than a hinderance. That way the moves can remain quite weak. Weak moves with unique secondary effects like the one you came up with for flash are really cool.
Side note: a system where you can only use the same amount of pokemon as your opponent would be cool! A system like online battles where you see your opponent's team and pick your team from your party.
Love the videos!
I’ve always wanted to see beach sand take on an encounter table. With the sheer number of water types in ALL the early gens, I always wondered why I couldn’t run into krabby, clamperl, or maybe even a staryu at the water’s edge.
Yea most games dont have many early water types. And when you do get Surf, Super Rod etc. it feels a bit overwhelming to suddenly have so many options and you dont get to raise most of the ocean pokemon from the start of the game ever.
Another thing you could consider with Flash, is giving it the effect of increasing the next move used against the target pokemon. It being illuminated and more visible and therefore making it easier to hit, which could have some usage in making lower accuracy but high power moves more viable and giving it some use in double battles which were introduced in this Gen.
Like a widespread lock on? Neat
@@SinNun-tx5jp yeah, exactly. give it a timed duration, 5 turns being pretty standard in pokemon, and you turn it from a pure last ditch move to a setup move similar to a lightscreen or tailwind effect.
can also pair it with abilities that lower accuracy like Hustle.
I appreciate very much the idea.
If it's 5 turns then you would want the accuracy buff to be low. 5 turns +50% accuracy on a spammer of OHKO moves would be disgusting.
So I would say something like +10% or *125%(adds 1/4 of the standard accuracy changing 80% into 100%)
I think buffs like +20% or *133% would be better suited if it's only a 3 turns boost. A sort of tail wind for accuracy.
That would be very nice.
@@louiseb3146 exactly, you want to incentivise the blizzards and thunders, not fissures and horn drills.
i'd think the 5 turn boost is most in line with the other team wide boosting moves so its easier to remember for the player.
IF you want, you could make Flash a move that lowers the enemy's accuracy 2 times instead of 1, and then have 1 of it go away after a turn. I feel that would not only make Flash make sense as a move, since some light stays in your eyes, while some fades away, and it also would make it pretty useable for a pokemon to have it on it's team. It might be too op if anything.
And finally giving the bugs a usable move is really really important (Looking at you Armaldo)
What I think could be done with HM would be that similar move could be used instead of the HM as a field move. For exemple, any slashing move could be used instead of cut etc…
I like this!
I do prefer this idea compared to the traditional HM system, i think. It might be a bit odd to match some HMs to TM moves, like Rock Smash in particular, but I'm sure there would be options.
@@lo0katmyn4me Surely punching/kicking/tail-whipping/tackling moves with enough power would be a good fit (like iron-tail, or mega punch, or rolling kick)
@lo0katmyn4me I actually think Dive, Surf, and Fly are trickier, but it shouldn't be an issue since they're all actually pretty nice to have in battle. A lot of water type moves are shot type and even flying type moves mostly make blades and beaks come to mind. Aqua jet from later gens maybe? Brave bird and sky attack? Splash would actually be kinda funny as an option
@@rewrose2838 I guess i was thinking a bit more limited in scope, admittedly. Iron tail and mega punch seem like good options, but i'm not as sold on rolling kick.
Consider Field Stat Checks > HMs: Party members may be deployed to hold a boulder, enter a tight crevice, activate a pressure plate, and so on.
Stats like Atk could be checked for boulders, Size for small spaces, and Wt. for pressure-sensitive tiles. Tougher obstacles may even incur some cost to HP, PP, or even IVs, which may be replenishable at Pokemon Centers. All sorts of interesting scenarios, new puzzles, and challenging gauntlets (i.e. fighting with a sub-6 team after deploying some Pokemon) can be built around these.
The simplest solution I think would be to either move the Move Deleter to an earlier point in the game or just make HM moves replaceable with new levelup moves
The only channel I've ever turned notifications on since the feature was added to UA-cam. Thank you for making something so interesting and entertaining!
Honestly, I think Rock Smash would be fine at a full 40 bp and plus guaranteed defense drop. That basically turns it into inverted Power-Up Punch. True that sorta invalidates Tailwhip/Leer, except no one really uses those moves outside of early game anyway.
Besides, technically Tailwhip/Leer would also still retain the situational advantage of lowering the defense of both opponents in a double battle.
Free alternatives to "HM Slave":
- HM Helper
- HM Partner
- HM Friend
- HM Buddy
- HMployee
- Utility Pokemon
Also Serene Grace x 50% Flinch chance Flash incoming lol
with flash you should probably keep in mind pokemon with serence grace, just something that came to mind when i saw the 50% flinch chance
Very nice. Been missing the streams cuz life got in the way, however enjoy watching these spedup videos of what ylu have done!
Other hacks have done this and I think you should too, turn those HMs into key items the player has to unlock. Cut is now an axe, rock smash is a pickaxe, and flash is a flashlight. Them becoming adventuring tools would easily fit in with the theming of the game while also eliminating the need of an HM slave for these objectively bad moves.
Or the system used in Unbound, where to use the move outside of battle you only need to have the HM and a Pokemon on the party that can learn it and you don't need to teach the HM at all.
I suggested something like that on one of the last ones. It would work so well!
Perhaps you can make the move deleter be moved to a midgame town and if you haven't already decided, make HM deletable. You could probably also consolidate the Dive and waterfall HMs by having only one of water HMs do both, but the function be active when the badge comes into play.
I absolutely love following your project and ill gladly give feedback from playtesting :)
Keep going!
I see a few comments suggesting to make the Move Deleter accessible in the early game, and I figured I'd add my thoughts to that idea.
I really like when Pokémon Centers are a hotspot of Trainer activity, so folding a lot of the game's more tucked away features into the Centers would make a lot of sense. Thinking a bit on the side of Unova, Alola, and the general vibe of anime Centers, where they offer more services and really LOOK like a place Trainers go to rest.
Though I also like the idea of some kind of third common building for something like this, making it so that cities can have any combination of PokéCenter, PokéMart, and... idk... PokéHQ/PokéLounge or something.
I think its important to try to figure out what your actual goals are for HMs and your changes before you listen to anyone here. Lots of suggestions, many good, but if you don't know what your goals are in a formal way, it'll be hard to ensure that you find the right solution. You mention some things in the video, but its hard to tell how important those things are to you. Additionally while two sets of goals may sound similar, they may produce wildly different executions and changes.
Examples:
1. Reduce the pain of having an HM on your mon.
2. Reduce the incentive to fully load a pokemon as an "HM-Carrier".
3. Preserve a reason to keep pokemon who may be worse in the late game.
Potential Solution: Make HMs either scale with level, or badges so they grow in power. Increase type variety/reduce type redundancy of HM moves. Change up HM learn-sets both based on when pokemon first appear, and also to benefit traditionally under-performing types/mons as exploration partners. Put many extra "hidden" areas in the game behind HM usage, and make them rewarding to find, and backtrack for, tutorialize this with early opportunities which help teach players to explore.
1. Increase the fun of having an HM on your mon.
2. Make HMs into naturally desirable moves so you don't need an "HM-Carrier".
3. Pose an interesting team building challenge.
Potential Solution: Give HMs stronger in-battle utility or damage in battle to make them more interesting from a team building perspective, and make them more fun to have. Limit which mons learn HMs at each point in the game to make reaching optional areas more challenging due to trainer pokemon.
Additionally you're likely to get two different ideas about what HMs are trying to accomplish in the original design, if you ask two different people. And since HMs are attacks in the game, you can't really adjust them without affecting the feel of the game over-all, so you should really consider the kind of overall experience you want to deliver. Someone doing a difficulty rom might choose to lower the PP of nearly all non-HM moves to give HMs a place on the team not by buffing them, but by making them really good for getting past long routes due to reliability. While someone creating a game primarily about exploration may have less trainer battles over-all in favor of more wild encounters, so they may choose to include new rest-stops, berry trees, and opportunities on a route to heal up for more exploration, making PP a really poor way to balance HMs.
Ask the original design lots and lots of questions, try to figure out the original intent, where it worked, where it didn't, and why it didn't. And always ask yourself if there is a simpler, or more core version of the answer you've found. Get to the very root of the design challenge and problems.
I am super excited to get this game up and running on my GBA (hopefully). Please keep up all your hard work!
An suggestion for HMs: Make it so that a pokemon can use an HM even if it hasn't learned the move? Only mons that can originally use the HMs can utilize them, and only after obtaining the HM as well as after the player got the right badge for it.
Example: An Zigzagoon could use the field move cut only after obtaining the badge *and* been given the Cut HM in Rustboro. But it wouldn't be able to use it in battle unless taught.
This still gives the player reasons to use certain mons without having to waste a few move slots.
Should change HMs to tools. Garden sheers, pickaxe, flashlight, surfboard, wetsuit, etc
Flash sounds OP.
I think a good approach to HMs would be to make all of them completely optional. You can travel between cities freely but HMs are used for exploration to find items and stronger pokémon.
Of course, it is Hoenn, so Surf will inevitably be mandatory, and removing Dive would be complicated because of the Groudon / Kyogre storyline
Have you considered having flash as a steel type "muddy water"? You could set the move's power to 60 or something similar and keep the 30% accuracy drop( or increase the odds) while making it usable and meaningful. Additionally having more moves that hit both enemies avaliable in the game helps add more charm to double battles!
I think one way to address the HM overworld problem is if you could tie actions (e.g. cut trees, move boulders, smash rocks etc) to badges instead of moves. In gen 3 scripting, there are events where the game checks for certain flags that trigger when you get a badge, and if those exist, the game lets you progress further. Perhaps you can tie that into overworld HM actions, forgoing HM use.
So let's say... cutting a tree. The game would check for the flag that triggers when you beat roxanne, and if the flag is there, the tree automatically gets cut. Same thing for boulders, rocks, surfing. So all you really need is the badge, and not pokemon that knows a specific HM move.
In my opinion, a simple solution to the problem of bad HMs is to integrate their utility into other moves. Don’t have cut? Use X-scissor, air cutter, or slash instead. Lots of options!
One slight tweak to your suggestion for Flash might be to give the move 90% accuracy, 100% chance to lower accuracy, and 55% chance to flinch (technically it's 55.5555...% to get the full accuracy, so maybe consider 56%). This way the odds shake out roughly the same but you remove a potential negative user experience when using a move that "hits" but has no effect.
Whoa... a status move with a chance of flinching... thats pretty interesting. And it makes sense with Flash. I like it a lot!
Juat make sure Jirachi with Serene Grace doesnt have access to it lol.
Maybe it would be ok for Togetic (if not adding togekiss), Dunsparce, and Blissey since their speed is so slow and won't be out speeding anyways most of the time.
Edit: just signed up for the dev testing! I hope you consider me to help with your project!
I wouldn't mind if you elaborated on your "radical" idea for balancing HMs, the more information and ideas are out here the better the discussion can be.
HMs should really be unlocks, held back with techniques learned by NPCs or Key Items given.
This combined with certain Pokémon able to execute the techniques... and this last part I would check each Pokémon separately to decide if they could learn the technique or not based on the physique, lore or moveset of the Pokémon.
This way you can greatly expand the list of Pokémon that can use the moves, yet still keep the gatekeeping that HMs are designed for.
As you’re already leaning in heavier on the Ranger aspect, I’d love to see you have the HMs work like the Poke Assists in Ranger. So not that the HMs would be usable by all pokemon of a specific type, but each pokemon would be able to an HM move based on their design.
Or alternatively, it could be fun to have to interact with a ranger and they give you a pokemon to follow you until you leave the route and that Pokémon’s HM matches whatever obstacle is prevalent in that route.
I would make waterfall a dragon type move, flash a steel type bite, maybe rock smash like a rock type freeze dry. Turn strength to a fighting type, cut to grass maybe steel. And buff fly and dive a bit
I feel like cut and rock smash could have unique interactions. Make them both normal type moves, but work like Freeze Dry. Cut would be super effective against Grass types and rock smash would be super effective against rock types. Alternatively, make strength super effective against rock instead.
You could also stand to buff rock smash more, modern rock smash has 40 power and it’s still pretty bad. All an opponent has to do is swap out to stop it from snowballing even with 100% defense drop, acid spray is only ok for that reason, despite the -2 sp def. Giving it a guaranteed -2 def or raising the power to 50 or 60 would probably help make it more viable as well. It could be viable in trainer battles, but the more advanced AI of gym leaders and other boss fights should in an ideal situation make them want to swap
i think you should find some way to merge dive and waterfall, because 2 water-type HMs is still not ideal
While all the focus on how HMs work is important, there is also their availability to consider. At least some of their viability can be waved away by what point in the game they're obtained. For example, Flash could be overpowered with no problems if you don't get it until near the end of the game. Perhaps instead of buffing HM moves, you could instead make stronger later game moves have the same effects, so that they're upgrades of a sort. Just a thought, and I really like the direction you're taking with this project. Good luck!
Happy new year and please continue with your great work
Idea for cut:
30 base power pr bug evolution.
1st stage 30, 2nd stage 60, 3rd stage 90
Wont make it super spammable by everyone, but pretty powerful for the otherwise underwhelming bugs
With flash - I'd suggest making the flinch chance 30% instead (with a 100% accuracy drop).
That way serene grace users don't flinch the opponent every single turn.
cut in some rom hacks was changed to be a grass type move. being a grass type move i think is unique
Flash was not as bad as people think. I've used a moonlight+flash+bite umbreon with a thunderwave lanturn and a fly + confuse ray crobat as important mons in Pokemon crystal, where they were vital do defeat Red with a level 50 team haha. Considering your opponent usually don't switch, lowering accuracy after those early gen paralisis or sleep was pretty good
My ideal solution to HMs (but idk how it could be coded) would be to just let any Pokemon that can learn the hm use it outside of combat even if the Pokemon hasn't learn the HM.. but the ability to use the HM would still be locked until the time in the original game where u get the HM CDs
Just a tiny mistake, X Scisors doesn't have an increased critical hit ratio
I feel like making hms optional is the best way to do it. Black and white only needed you to use cut once, and that was the only hm needed in the whole game (fly is always needed though)
I do think that being required to use a water and flying type in every pre gen 7 game is what makes me not want to replay them the most. I've definitely used all the flyers in gen 3, but theres still some surfers. I'd try to expand the learnset of fly and surf to give more variety than the original games
I think the main problem with HMs is that they are tied to the move set. If you give each pokemon a dedicates slot for just the field usage of an HM you solve the slave issue and encourage larger teams that change depending on where you are planning to explore.
Imagine Togekiss with 100% chance to crit and also lowering accuracy
More more more! love this series sooooo much
This seems to be a very ambitious project, the first time I came across this I thought you were just going to enlarge the map but since you are trying to fix all its problem would you also fix the physical special split. I mean do what gen 4 did
Serene Grace will make Flash broken by always making opponents flinch and drop accuracy. You can use it 6 times and make all of their attacks miss most of the time.
including the shallow standable water on this route takes away from the unique visual identity of the areas that do use it
Oof. I must admit I don’t like the idea for Flash. Maybe make it work like a special version of Fake-Out?
idk
Appreciate your effort for this project, though!
Well ...Why don't you use the system used in the alola games to use hms? Like, the player could just use the Pokenav to acess tha system and then press in which hm they want to use, but off course, you would just get acess to actually use those hms once you progress throught the game. For example , after you beat Norman, the normal type gym leader, the Pokenav it's updated and now give you the option to Surf. Also, when it's updated you could just make someone say it to the player or maybe a message from Professor in the Match call appears to warning about the new hm you can now use or something like that idk
5:59 holy shit borkum mentioned!!
Will you be adding the fairy type and implementing the physical/special split from Gen IV and later (or at least changing the stats of some pokemon like Gengar and Absol to actually be able to make use of their stab types) in this hack? What about later evolutions like Dusknoir and Roserade?
You could also decouple the hm from the four attackslots.
That's a really interesting idea, an additional slot for a move that can only be used in the overworld. I hope he sees your comment!
I think eternal x did it best.
Cut is grass type. 50 bp, but it always crit. Not too strong but a garuenteed crit made for some unique strats. Never felt overpowered to use
Id make flash work like no guard for 5 turns. So its a risk reward where lower accuracy moves can shine for you, but also your opponents as well. I guess balancing sheer cold and fissure around this could be difficult.
Or flash could work like lock on for both you and your oppenent during the next turn.
These are my suggestions, but i can already tell you're on the right track for balancing these hm's
I signed up for the test build, to let you know on the comments aready. I will be testing using a 3DS running CFW.
I hope it runs
that flash with serene grace just cheeses everything btw lmfao you could solo the game easily with a togetic
This is a fun project to follow! Have you thought about adding a minimap? With the way you are expanding the areas, it seems like it might be necessary to avoid players getting lost.
Flash could maybe confuse? I think it would fit thematically.
Also I think the new cut is identical to hidden power bug: a 70 base power bug with 100% accuracy. I would change it a little bit so pokemons have a benefit from being able to learn cut as every mon can learn hp bug anyways. I would suggest raising the power and lowering the accuracy or maybe add a flinch chance or something.
Or keep cut a normal move with and make it auper effective against grass types, similar to how freeze dry works
@@yohanbosuCut would be a more available and WAY more reliable way of having a decent power Bug move than Hidden Power.
Additionally, if there was to be a Normal move that's Super Effective against a type then Grass (among a few others) should be the LAST ones to suffer that due to having a lot of disadvantages already.
I'm not a fan of hm's in general. One thing I think would be interesting is change hm to a consumable item, (but there's potential for soft locking). I've seen some hackroms use key items as hm's, which was fun. What I don't like like hm's is the fact that I have to was slots on my party on pokemon just to explore.
I end up with slaves no matter what I do in vanilla RSE. I'm not a huge fan of water type pokemon in general, not that I hate them but they just don't speak to me. I always end up catching something that can learn all three and backtrack to the PC when I need it, which is frustrating. Even though the moves themselves are good, if my pokemon team doesn't learn it, it feels bad. I sort of get where you're coming from with pokemon and harmony with the environment, but at the end of the day HMs will mean HM Slaves for someone, even if the move itself is good.
I personally think that you can have more than one solution to environmental "problems." For example, you can still have the HM Surf as-is in the game, but also give access to a key item through an optional sidequest.
For example, maybe you receive a surfboard from someone because you gave someone a pokemon that you taught Surf to and they don't need their surfboard anymore, so now it's yours.
Or maybe you can add another difficult battle on a similar level to a gym battle for it. Or as a reward for exploring an entirely new custom route or cave.
Or maybe the same guy who gives you flash will sell you a flashlight for a relatively handsome price.
Really the takeaway I think I want this comment to have is, rather than only seeing key items as "removing HMs," try instead to see it as another way to add new optional content.
If your team of pokemon isn't suited for the task at hand, don't force them to bench teammates and adjust their team to achieve harmony with the region-- let them have a new way of defeating obstacles, even if it's more of a struggle than simply switching the team.
Honestly it might be a lot but a retrxture of the game would be really cool, hoenns tile packs look so basic in comparison to even FRLG if they used tiles from maybe BW or DP
I am personally not a fan of how drastic the change to cut is but will save talking about that to other people. But do have some thoughts about the other HMs. For Flash instead of giving it a 90% chance to lower accuracy, why not just make it have 90% accuracy and a 100% chance to lower it then still the 50% chance to flinch? Then while I also get removing dive and waterfall why not just make them sidegrades to surf instead of removing them? Like maybe make waterfall have it's finch chance like in older gens then give it more base power, like 95 base power while reducing surf to it's current 90 base power. Or even just having them both be 90 base power with one having a secondary effect while the other can hit multiple targets. Then finally dive I feel like could just be removed fine, or it could be kept and increase it's power to something like 120 or maybe even higher depending on how balancing goes. Higher one turn damage with being untargetable for a turn at the cost of less overall damage.
Would also personally like to see TMs being able to be forgotten and learned freely without having to wait until basically the late game to remove them. Believe that opens up a lot more design space with them. Then you don't need to do something like making cut a move that needs to be viable through the entire game and could turn it into something of a more utility focused move like rock smash or even just using it in the early game for certain areas or until the player gets better neutral normal type moves.
I' loving your world changes, I always wanted to make my own pokemon game but with a larger wild area more like the anime.
With older graphics and systems I understand this would get boring with massive repeating maps but if done correctly making for example the first Forrest making that a bit more wild and larger but not to big and annoying to get though but it has more off side secrets to explore. My point being try to take some inspiration from the anime for locations but dont make things large and annoiyng just rewards for exploring out of your way.
So what if pokemon had the ability to use HMs based on species? For the sake of simplification, if a pokemon has a HM in it's learnset it can always use it. So Peliper would always be able to use Surf and Fly but Wingull wouldn't for balancing reasons
Cut has no thematic reason to be Bug. It only has 3 types thay work: Normal, because it was already that type. Steel, because it's JP name is a sword technique. And Fighting for the same reason as Steel. Also hilariously if it was changed to way you described it during Gen 3, it would be on every good physical attacker that could learn it because it's better that Hidden Power Bug, which is needed to deal with Celebi in competitive.
Might sound like I'm grasping at straws, pun not intended, but on top of balance, it's also based on Bug being super effective on Grass, and the still surprisingly unknown hidden mechanic that Cut can clear out patches of tall grass!
Why not just do like Gen 7 and have a device that say calls in Nuzleaf, Nincada, or Absol to use cut, Swellow or Tropius to use Fly, Sharpedo to Surf, Vigoroth to use Strength, Chimecho, Spoink, or Sabeleye to use Flash, and maybe Wailmer can handle the rest of the water ones? If not, then, Luvdisc or Whiscash for Whirlpool, Milotic for Waterfall, and Wailmer/Lord for Dive? That way you have a gen 3 theme for all of them, just leave the entirety of the HMs alone but as TMs.
I don't genuinely think outside of exactly Surf that anyone really likes HMs. At least Surf is strong and useful in battle. The rest are pointless and antiquated.
Why not make flash an electric special mud slap?
Well, it's a original take for sure
Wouldn't it be funny for the flash move to have a small percentage lowering your pokemons accuracy aswell?
Was always sad that charmander, which has a flame, couldn't just....be in the party to provide light. The show lied to me.
Onl yesterday did I notice tha the markings on Bisa's forehead pretty much spell 'BISA'.
What if you actually make hm’s hidden? They don’t appear as a move and are simply with the Pokémon
Flash could be Normal type Flash Cannon
Lookin' good!
Hm, let's see this
The changes to Cut sound familiar... Oh yeah, SmithPlays Pokemon did almost the exact same thing with Crystal Legacy.
That said, I do think it was a good change.
What about relearning and removing hm?
just noticed your avatar has 'bisa' on its forehead
I think Flash is pretty broken I'll be honest
Love your videos and am very excited for this game, I do just wanna request that you please stop using the word “slave” when referring to pokemon that spam HMs. It just makes a lot of ppl uncomfortable and isn’t really necessary. Most ppl call them HM companions or friends now :)
They do suck!
I personally would prefer if HMs weren't moves that have to be learned but rather an inherent ability of the Pokémon. I disagree with your reasoning about this not being the right approach. Firstly, your argument hinges on the idea that it must be based on types, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. An alternative could be that all Pokémon capable of learning Cut could use the move inherently, thereby avoiding the issue. If you're still opposed to this, I would suggest that many moves could be adapted to cut and smash rocks and other HMs. For example, all slashing and punching moves. I think your approach, unfortunately, will not only be a nightmare for balancing but also unenjoyable for the player and restrictive for team building. The way HMs were implemented in early Pokémon games is inherently flawed, and simply improving them is just a superficial fix that doesn't address the fundamental problems. In my opinion, Surf is just as problematic as moves like Flash, Rock Smash, and Cut, albeit in a different way. Surf trivializes many Pokémon's strengths and weaknesses, while also diminishing other potentially interesting challenges for the player.
Hi bisa is the decomp hacking hard to get into?