How to DEFEAT the Federation
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- Опубліковано 17 тра 2018
- Today we explore the methods that would work best when trying to take down that interstellar behemoth called the United Federation of Planets. These are more of just concepts of how to approach the conflict rather than descriptive battle tactics as that sort of thing goes well beyond my experience...
But hey, I think I did a good job on the thumbnail, right?
This is Part Five of a Federation series I'm working on exploring the different aspects of the UFP.
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This Video is for educational purposes with commentary. - Ігри
The Borg, Dominion, Romulans and Quark would like to know your location
wait, why is quark in this list? not that it wouldnt make sense though :D
@@xenther6854 As Odo would say: Always investigate Quark.
@@xenther6854
Just in case. Plus, information is the most valuable commodity.
I don’t trust Quark.
Imagine a war between the kazon and the federation at the hight of pacifism. I hate to say the kazon may have a chance (if they had a way to get to the federation)
Easiest way to defeat the Federation, historically? Get them to sign a terrible treaty with you!
Romulans for the win!
How is that win for the Romulans? Their planet was exploded by a FTL Supernova Shockwave.
Earth is still fine. The Federation still alive and kicking. And might end up integrating the remnants of the Romulan Star Empire.
If they end up integrating you, that is not a win.
The Treaty of Algeron is the White-Gold Concordat of Star Trek.
A Federation with cloaking technology, possibly even a perfected phase cloak, is significantly more of a threat than the canonical version. Imagine a fleet of Galaxy, Akira, Prometheus, Defiant and Sovereign class ships decloaking behind your lines.
The fact that the Romulans managed to convince the Federation to sign the Treaty of Algeron was a huge victory for them.
Is it will be a great day to Romulan star Empire.
@@christopherg2347 the Hobus Supernova happened nearly 200 years later and for a short time was the catalyst for the Star Empire being top dog in the Alpha Quadrant.
After the Dominion War and pre-Hobus the Star Empire was the only superpower in the quadrant that didn't suffer major damage and casualties due to there late entry in the war. The Klingon Empire was in shambles losing the majority of there fleet. The Cardassians went from regional power to pseudo refugee dependent on Federation aid for survival. The Federation was preoccupied with rebuilding its worlds and playing referee keeping the Klingons from claiming more former Cardassian territories as war spoils.
The Star Empire could've made a serious move in the quadrant that could've made them the dominant power knowing that the Klingon and Federation forces would not have been enough to repel them.
Everyone seems to forget how a group parasitic aliens almost took over the Federation by controlling high ranking members of Starfleet.
My head canon explanation for why that was never revisited is that the parasitic slugs succeeded and canceled the investigation
Dangerous_stranger I think it was going to be followed up with what the borg were before they were shown, an insectoid race with a hive mind. Sadly though budgets didnt allow for the sfx for an insectoid race
But we got the Borg instead, which until Voyager beat the crap out of them every week were pretty darn awesome!
Moose Tompson The design they had thought up were eventually used for that insect race from a different dimension that were abducting crewmen in their sleep to do medical experiments on them, detaching and re-attaching Riker's arm for example.
What I miss about those slug aliens is originally in the episode when the 'queen' slug in that officer was destroyed, there was a big gruesome scene. The officers body hit by continuous phaser fire dissolved, revealing the queen inside his body chunks, screaming (puppetry) beside it too slowly disintegrated. Now in repeats they just show them firing that's it. It's edited out.
ever noticed that aliens use outdated tactics attack en masse
8:45 - Federation adapts quickly. Wasnt it a Mr Eddington that told a certain Sisko that the Federation was like the Borg - it assimilates you - BUT LEAST THE BORG TELL YOU STRAIGHT AWAY
I call this type of character the anti-show-wanker. Keeps on bringing up flawed flaws to bring a self-destruction edge to the show just because. These make sense superficially, until you dig deeper. A self-destruction edge to the show would work if it was actually done artfully, and thoroughly; and over a long progressing arc of self-improvement. Their membership/ally contract literally says what qualities you need or obtain to join or be a good ally. That's basically as "at least tell you that you will be assimilated?" as it gets, but without all the instant force after the declaration.
The Federation reminds me of modern day NATO headed and invested in mostly by the US, comparable to Starfleet.
The beauty of planting spies at the highest levels of Starfleet is that more than half of the admirals are already destructive maniacs anyway. Your spies can operate as brazenly as they want and they'll still be seen as better admirals.
You would need to eliminate Section 31 to defeat the UFP. Section 31 does the thing the rest of the UFP can't or won't do.
thought they became the time police?
No, you should support Section 31, The easiest way to defeat the Federation is to fund the humanists, humanity has always been its own downfall, of course the death of the Federation would mean the rise of a Terran empire like the Klingons.
@@w415800 section 31 isn't human centric. Intel from them was used to take down terra prime in the enterprise era
@@w415800 Humanity has never destroyed itself so far so that argument comes from nowhere
@@w415800 You could make the same argument of the vulcans, they had a nuclear war and other brutal conflicts too until they sorted out their issue with logic and things... and section 31 isn't human centric.
I always got the feeling that the Dominion was too hasty when it came to the Federation. They should have put their changeling infiltrators in the Federation Council and slowly began to dictate and alter Federation policy, leading up the Dominion "joining" the Federation. In truth, it would be the Federation joining the Dominion without ever having fired a shot.
The Dominion very much could have. They are in the game for the long haul and will play politics to get what they want. If the plot of DS9 never happened the way it did, I'm sure the Founders would have played politics and used infiltration more than waving their military might to get the Alpha Quadrant powers on their side.
That could be a plan for any race with absolute internal cohesion and discipline. Play nice and get into positions of power and have your species all through the organisation. It would take a (human) generation to consolidate your position, but by the time you make your move, you are the Federation.
Just stay away from telepaths (like Betazoids) unless you are immune to telepathy (or even better, able to project a false mental image).
And that is a vulnerability of the Changelings that Starfleet never exploited. Changelings are blank to telepaths (that's why Luxana was fascinated by Odo, pre war), so any humanoid (except a ferengi, who if I remember, can still be sensed by empaths and are still 'there' just not able to be read) who is not able to be viewed is not who they appear to be. A Betazoid could just wander around, pick out the changeling by their absence and inform Starfleet security telepathically, who could then arrange a ambush in a hermetically sealed place. The Betazoid would need a high security clearance because of all the secrets they would accidentally hear from senior officers though - imagine if Section 31 had Betazoid members, but recruiting them would be an issue, how do you test a telepath for loyalty ?
Aren't the founders paranoid though? Perhaps they felt that if they didn't speed things up the alpha quadrant could pose a danger to them
@Matram Degaurdez While the founders were paranoid, they were also very patient and cautious by nature; they were quite capable of biding their time and playing the game of politics to get what they wanted without subjecting themselves to undue dangers. What ended up foiling their plans in DS9 was Section 31's virus. After being infected, they couldn't afford to play it safe anymore... they had no choice but to accelerate their plans, and as a result they made a lot of mistakes that ultimately cost them the war. Without Section 31 it's entirely possible, even likely, that they would have employed a much slower, more long term plan to subjugate the Alpha Quadrant.
@@GamerX51 My theory is that this is what happened in the alternate timeline seen in "The Visitor". Without the virus, there was no need to attack the Federation right away.
It would be child's play to defeat the Fed in the TNG timeframe. Attack them when Jordi and Data are telling Picard "We can't do that, it would violate the Prime Directive."
The Federation is incredibly easy to take down from the inside. The Dominion got incredibly close, but not because of its spies' direct actions, nor because of their military strength capable to overwhelm the Federation (though if Sisko hadn't closed down the wormhole, the Dominion would've easily overrun the Alpha quadrant powers).
It was the paranoia they planted into the brass of the Federation. In the season 4 two-parter Homefront/Paradise Lost, Earth dodged the massive bullet of a coup d'Etat and a military junta taking over as Starfleet admiral Leyton actually sabotaged Earth systems in order to have the Federation president give him the ability to implement measures such as martial law. If Earth had become a military dictatorship under Leyton, I'm sure that would've brought the Federation to the brink of falling apart very rapidly, especially if Leyton had implemented the same rules on other core worlds.
Well, DS9 is incredibly inconsistent in this matter. It was said that 2800 ships are waiting in the Gamma Quadrant. But after the Breen entered the war, the Klingon alone could easily spare 1500 ships to hold the line. Given the fact how often we see one Klingon or Federation ship destroy more than just one Jem'Hadar attack ship, it's most unlikely that the 2800 ships would have been decisive for the war itself. Not to mention that the Federation became more tactical advanced every day, mass producing the Defiant, Saber, Steamrunner and Akira class and even had the most advanced warship in the Alpha Quadrant, the Prometheus.
It is not entirely wrong though. With the control of the wormhole the Dominion would have been able to bring in supplies from the Gamma Qaudrant. Combined with their power in the Alpha Quadrant they would have ultimately won the war, because at some point the Federation and their allies would have lacked the personnel to man their ships.
Well I suppose that is true. That said, the brute force of the Dominion wasn't my point anyway, it was that the Federation nearly destroyed itself with fearmongering.
Well even if Dominion did win, founders would be eradicated.
Don't you think section 31 would just have assassinated him at that point though?
The dominion had the unusual advantage of shapeshifters. I wouldn't exactly call that "incredibly easy" when none of the other factions have access to spies that good. Romulans would probably do fine as they have traditionally been strong at intrigue, but even they don't have quite the same advantages. Problem with the Romulans is they are too isolationist. That's not how technology develops, not technology fueled powerhouses at least.
Ferengi don't need to take down the Federation, it provides them with a wonderful source of revenue. Why would a leech want to kill its host? Free food.
Klingons and Federation both have weaknesses far to great to be ignored if we are to analyze this realistically. The House of Quark implied that, on the whole, Klingons both have generalized loathing of all things financial and Gowron specifically was really bad at accounting. Sophisticated ships are nice if you actually have the resources to build them, but if you can't get your accounting in order then at best your construction will be super inefficient and redundant with lots of spare parts lying around because nobody was keeping track of anything. At worst, your resources start to "magically disappear". If they were more similar to feudal Japan, this would make more sense: where the loathing of money is only surfacey, and behind the scenes very competent administrators are managing the assets. But it is pretty much canon that Gowron, at least, had no clue what he was doing. We also know that the House of Durass was very corrupt and also willing to break with Klingon traditions, let alone carry out outright treachery. Even if we compare them to feudal Japan, we are still talking about extreme instability and chaos, with a lot of on-the-spot solutions just to keep head above water.
The Federation, however, amounts to a communist utopia. I think that speaks for itself, given success rates of attempts. But to add on to that, it is inconsistent: somehow Federation patrons are able to go to Ferengi bars and pay for their drinks despite strong implications that "wages" are non-existent. Furthermore, one last point, is that if everyone follows their hearts ambition, and it is strongly implied that no incentive system exists whatsoever, there is the problem of a complete lack of influence, let alone control, of the job market. Some jobs would get oversaturated, while others would be non-functional due to a lack of employees. Realistically automation would help immensely, that is the only out I see here.
Klingons VS Federation is basically a battle of two systems that would realistically be too broken to function anyway, Klingons possibly being narrowly saved if they have competent financial administrators offscreen, and the Federation being narrowly saved if they have tons of automation. Both would still struggle to keep their heads above waters in the best scenario, however.
As for the Cardassians, it is only a matter of time. Eventually they will need reforms, but fascist systems tend to have a fast burnout start and early death. However, reforms in the future might be able to fix this, at the expense of short-term vulnerability while the reform movements are in progress. However, they are off to a powerful start.
Oh wow..thank you for the shout out! :) Didnt expect that..pretty cool
You've done so much on the Dominion war, it's NP mate. :)
how simple send more then ONE borg cube. SEND A FLEET!
Jean-Luc Martel problem is Borg are efficient and don’t waste resources.
Jean-Luc Martel - Yeah, at least send more the second time. (I don't think they'd send _two_ probing actions)
true because QUANTUM.
Minor correction, the Borg reached sector 001 in both of their attempts (and were defeated both times).
Okay, with THIS sudden video not to long after the "Why NOT to Join the Federation" video, are we sure that Ric wasn't replaced by Rik from the mirror universe? XD
What? pfft... noooo... Why would you say that. Nope. Do not go looking for him. Me. I meant me....Ric.
Certifiably Ingame just don't go meet your Warhammer 40K version of yourself.
That's not ominous in the slightest....nope, no ominous tone here......
Replaced by pickle Rick
Make him do a face reveal, the goatee will reveal the truth.
How to really defeat the Federation: Take away the beer.
Without the beer, they can't do the "Hold my beer. I got this." tactic.
Fortunately, Star Fleet is not composed of early Twenty-first Century teenagers, armed with childish catch-phrases.
@@waynemarvin5661 Instead, they're armed with 24th Century posh adults who love preaching about how humanity has evolved past conflict despite still entering conflict. Though I did hear they stopped doing that after stardate 43000
"Try to divide them", "bureaucratic federation", "induce squabbles", "cracks", "discredit them"... wait, is this about Star Trek or the EU and Brexit? :D
Can be applied to both ;)
Same thing, just on a larger scale
So basically be Russia on a large scale
yeah, i think EU is the closes thing to the federation, the emmbers has to much autonomy to be comparaded to USA but ONU has no real authority...
You don't have to do the last thing, they are already doing it themselves.
General Chang's simulated campaign against the Federation in Klingon Academy uses some of the strategies described in this video, most notably attacking unity among the member races.
The only way to defeat the Federation is to somehow remove their plot armor. It is the only glue holding the Federation together.
Sometime, I think they should go ahead and kill the Federation off. Perhaps in the 31st century or later. Bring in some badass new foe, combine it with long-building internal turmoil within UFP politics, and massive civil unrest, and give us a show where the entire Federation COLLAPSES. Then we get something like a hybrid of BSG and Andromeda, where the last scraps of Starfleet attempt to reunify the galaxy in the face of a threat that cannot be allowed to win, or else all life in the Milky Way Galaxy will die!
+Thomas Harrog
Eh, if you want BSG then why not watch BSG?
It would be interesting to see a plotline where the Federation is struggling to hold itself together, but there's no point in turning it into a different series. One of the big complaints about Discovery is that it doesn't feel like Star Trek.
I'd say that the federation being on the verge of collapse would be a better scenario than an outright collapse for the setting.
>Unated
>Federation
>of Planets
Voltaire.jpg
+Thomas Harrog
_"Sometime, I think they should go ahead and kill the Federation off."_
Might as well kill off the Force in Star Wars. Not the Jedi: the Force.
And by "plot armor", you mean Section 31? :P
"The federation adapts. They have the experiences of all the member races to draw from"
Looks like he's talking about the Borg XD
The difference between the federation and the Borg, is that the federation waits for the person to volunteer.
I'm well aware of that ^^ I was just playing on the way he talked about them :P (Also federation members do not lose their personnalities, individuality, cultures etc.)
But wasn't that one of the great things about the Borg? Their values are fairly similar, and they serve as a mirror to what the Federation could have been.
yup. Until they added a queen XD
That's such a low-value-of-n-dimensional comment. ;)
That was a scary, yet incredibly accurate plan to defeat the Federation. Don't try to make friends, just get it done.
Do NOT underestimate the Federation's "ace in the hole" with regards to the highly secretive and covert organization: Section 31. They are always in the shadow's of the Federation. In the background snooping and carrying on missions to ensure the safety and longevity of the UFP.
True. Section 31 nearly annihilated the founders when even the infamous Tal'Shiar failed.
oh please, a bunch of slugs managed to infiltrate the highest ranks without any problems
Of course if you are crafty enough you can turn that to your advantage. Remember the propaganda thing. Imagine the serious loss of federation prestige and moral standing should Section 31 existence and their activities were to become general knowledge within the galaxy.
@@aurumvale9908 those slugs as you call them where a setient being they were hard to detect once infected with them, section 31 has remained hidden in the shadows since the federation began they seek out threats to the federation and deal with them
@@robh316 it's still a bunch of slugs that should show up on every single transporter protocol. not to mention they hardly are that hard to identify without a scanner "Say, what's that thing growing out off your neck. looks weird, you should go see the doc." not to mention their feeding habits. replicators cant produce living organisms so at least someone hat to procure their food, and somehow I dont think it would go unnoticed when a bunch of high ranking officers get a bowl of worms instead of regular food. Those slugs should've started with the klingons. Their command structure includes killing underlings and promotion through murder, making the extra strength they grant the host actually useful. also most klingons grow out their hair covering up the 'fuck do I know what it is' in the neck and eat live food regularly, so it's way less suspicious.
The Dominion was almost sure to defeat the Federation as predicted by those friends of Bashir, it was only by a miracle (the aliens of the wormhole eliminating a fleet of Dominion ships), and because Garak and Sisko managed to drag the Romulans into the fight using dirty tactics.So the Dominion was not only close, it was almost sure to win.
Convince a Q, problem solved
Yeah the q.
A really cool but stupid idea.
Not gonna happen.
Pretty sure the Q (and Q Jr) will convince the Q continuum to probably support the federation, so it may backfire on you.
Best thing to do is do your best to keep them out of it.
9:51 "plus, star trek without the federation?" You know, I've always thought it would be interesting to have a whole series that was from the perspective of a crew on a non-federation ship.
Ah, space empire politics is more ruthless than planetary politics. I believe that most things in life can be a field test in the tactics of Sun Tzu The Art of War, or the books of Nicolo Machiavelli such as The Prince, Machiavellianism. It is basically being evil in the course of doing good, and fighting dirty is perfectly acceptable.
how to defeat the federation - let alex kurtzman run the franchise.
go away
@@Mister_Mag00 aww, you triggered? tough sh*t.
Surely manufacturing a plague would bring the Federation to its knees. If Terrans could be infected with something that is no danger to them, but lethal to an allied species they have many dealings with, the results could be extremely satisfying to enemies of the Federation.
A plague, say, that causes accelerated aging - age and ill-health are two enemies no power can defeat. No armed forces can fight if they are too feeble, old, or mentally unfit to do so; therefore, a plague that has those effects is what is needed. Biological weapons seem to be what are needed. Terraforming would help, or using the Xindi weapon deployed in “Enterprise”. It all depends how ruthless one is prepared to be.
Reminds me of the Vorcha plot in Mass Effect 2, the Vorcha were spreading a plague that humans were immune to, but no other species was so all the humans had to deal with the blame and mistrust.
So everyone wants to use the Krytos Plague from Star Wars?
André Brynkus Not having heard of it, no. But deliberately spreading plague - the right kind of plague, of course - seems to be a good way to weaken the Federation. If the Cardassians (say) could get hold of some human POWs, experiment on them until they found a deadly contagion that had little or no effect on humans that humans could unknowingly be carriers of, and then return the infected Starfleet personnel in a prisoner exchange with Earth, the Cardassians:
(1) would have plausible deniability
(2) could sit back and see the personnel infect other humans in Starfleet with no recognisable effects to alert Starfleet to the presence of a problem
(3) could wait for the result large number of infected personnel to infect their allies, with lethal results for the allies;
(4) which could be made into a cause of suspicion, resentment, distrust and hostility to humans;
(5) which, properly fostered, could do untold damage to the Federation.
This method has the great merit of allowing those doing the damage to act entirely naturally, without being in the least conspiratorial. That they would be going about their lives as usual, would not in the least prevent their being very effective carriers of this deadly plague.
Another thing you could do is create the cure for the plague as well. When it has ravaged enough worlds and the Federation is fracturing you come in with the cure. You would be viewed as a savior rather than a conqueror.
Jacob Clark Nice :) Bringing the Federation to its knees might be simpler than posing as its saviour, unless a renegade (?) member of the Federation were to do so. There might also be a danger, for the writer, of following a plot that was too like that of Star Wars. But there is so much going on in the ST ‘verse that this should be avoidable quite easily.
I love your videos. Thank you for all your hard work making them.
The area i think the Dominion made a mistake in was giving signs from the beginning that they were... well, not nice. I feel if the Dominion had played tge diplomacy and subterfuge game more and hid the true nature of the Founders especially that they would have done vastly better. One great example- imagine them aiding the Bajorans and doing a major goodwill campaign with them to sway them from the orbit of the Federation.
Unfortunately, there's a certain impression that at times the Dominion trends to brute overwhelming force, and it didnt help that the wormhole opened up directly in their core territory.
Conversely, if the Dominion had simply come through in force, and not given the Federation years to prepare, that would have worked well too. Remember, when they first encountered them, the Dominions polaron weapons went right through Federations shields. As Federation ships lacked armor, that made them essentially defenseless against even inferior forces.
If they'd not been so strict about the religious structures surrounding the Founders, they could've easily infiltrated the Federation with changelings and brought it to its knees from the shadows, after which the Dominion could swoop in and "save it from itself."
*How to DEFEAT the Federation
? Hire Alex Kurtzman!*
Or you could just throw the imperium of man at them
Oh, and what planet are they from?
firstly it was a joke. and not a very funny one I admit.and to answerer the question, a about a million give or take.
Dear God, that war would be over in less than a week! 😲
dmacbass I've actually given it a lot of thought recently. And while I firmly believe the imperium would win. They just have more of everything to the point where they could just drown the federation in guard. The federation would I believe put up a decent fight.
For a number of reasons.
1: the federation and it's forces are many times more Mobile than the imperium mainly because of the nature of space travel and tech differences. Teleporters are common place each ship can be far more self seficent than their imperium equalzants
2. There tech level would be a massive boon. For example take the humble phaser for example that thing is capable of killing pitty much anything in one hit and on higher levels it can even disintegrate hostile forces. Sure this burns the battery out but any loss would be very minor
3. The ultra elite armys of the imperium woulnt be as effective vs the above Imagine the losses among space marines because of how op the phasa is. Think of each phaser as a mini lasscannon. At most space marines would be most effective vs civilian targets. The main forces that imperium could bring to bear that could continue to be effective vs the federation would be in order.
Sisters of battle ( their numbers and training make them far more useful vs the Insta death phaser) ( also their nearly as mobile as the space marines)
The forces of the mechanicus ( the tech they have could offer some protection and their numbers make them more useable)
And the guards sheer numbers
4. Any war against the federation would be a war of pure mobility. With universe teleport tech at their beck and call it would be nearly impossible to pin down federation ground forces and they can teleport anything with out a void shield away or just beem a photon torpedo under the tracks of a baneblade for example and even if they can't or don't they have far greater sensor tech than the imperium and can pin point distory the mechanized elements of an army from orbit.
Sadly though dispute all this the imperium would just grind the federation down, it would probably take 300 years and massive losses of men and equipment but the imperium can eat those losses the federation can't.
The only way the federation could "WIN" if if the could kill the emperor and distoy the golden throne as with out those. A huge section of the galaxy would be devoured by the warp. However contages federation you've distoryed half the galaxy and allowed a mass load of demons run wild
@The Silent Freedom Fighter wouldnt really matter, the scale of the imperium of man is orders of magnitude higher than the UFP (were talking over a million settled worlds vs somewhere in the region of 2500)
Nice vids from the series and STO, good work!
I was thinking about Plot Armor for the 2nd half of the video and then you mentioned it at the end.
Step 1: Invent a Weapon that Melts Plot Armor.
Step 2: Take over Federation Territory.
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit (Gold Pressed Latinum)
I got a chuckle out of the Chicken and the Egg joke.
All the tactics you mentioned to defeat the Federation...are all stuff that the Romulans have been doing basically since the beginning. So why were they not mentioned in this?
DATA: Commander, that would not be an atypical Romulan ploy. In their long history of war, the Romulans have rarely attacked first. They prefer to test their enemy's resolve. this is probably why.
Also, it is hinted by Garak that the Tal'Shiar are "sloppy" in their work. It is fairly certain that in the setting, the Tal'Shiar are mediocre in comparison to the Obsidian Order. Section 31 however is probably the most competent at performing intelligence operations, since their very existence is not known in a general way. and yet, they compromised the head of the Tal'Shiar and made him one of their agents, nearly wiped out the Founders, and pulled many of the strings that led to the Federation winning the Dominion war. They did all these things, and almost no one knows they even exist! Even many high ranking members of Starfleet or the heads of alien intelligence organizations know they are around. And their operations are VERY rarely detected, much less foiled.
The Romulans have a reputation for subtlety, and therefore everyone is on guard around them. They also appear to be relatively unimaginative, especially noted by Garak. In comparison, if the Klingons weren't truly so narrow minded in their warrior culture, could have one hell of an intelligence service. No one would suspect their intelligence network to be so good if they even gave any thought to developing it's capabilities.
They made Section 31 waaaay too powerful. Since its existence isn't even known, they would have very restricted ways of getting supplies, resources and technology - whereas the Tal'Shiar and the Obsidian Order have access to all the resources of the Cardassian Union and the Romulan Empire for their projects.
Fun fact: The Klingons have an INCREDIBLY strong secret service but this is never talked about (I guess because it's embarrassing for Klingons to rely on methods based on stealth and sneak). But every single intelligence operation they tried in all the Star Trek series has been incredibly elaborated.
Also, I never liked the Founder's virus. Came over as a cheap deus ex machina. Could have let Sisko find an invincible ghost army sworn to fight for him under the fire caves as well. There wasn't even a reason to introduce this: The Federation and its allies stood their ground with conventional means anyway!
Jab_and_Amann Actually they would have wiped out the Founders (and by extension the whole Dominion) if Bashir hadn't discovered the virus was Section 31 in origin, thanks to his genetically enhanced memory and previous knowledge of Section 31.
The Founders all die soon and the Dominion falls apart. In fact the Federation could have gone on the defensive, instead of pushing to Cardassia, just wait for them to die, and to be really mean, leak intelligence that the Breen made the virus (which is why they joined once they knew it was working), to take over. The last order of the Founders is to attack the Breen, thereby removing a long term threat to the Federation in the bargain. And emphasizing, ironically, that you can trust the Federation as an ally (*cough cough, dead Romulan senator), but its enemies may turn on you.
The Federation now cautiously moves into the Gamma quadrant once all the Founders are dead, since the wormhole is in Federation (Bajor) territory only they have access, and spread throughout former Dominion territory. The remaining Dominion species are in disarray, and if the Founders kept the secret of the White away from the Vorta and only they knew how to make it, well the Jem'hadar are all dead as well.
But Julian had to ruin it, along with Sisko, who dispises the immoral ends justifies the means worldview (accessory after the fact to dead Romulan senator).
Although a even more devious plan for Section 31 would be to surreptitiously cure Odo once the virus became public knowledge, advising him to stay away from all other Changelings to avoid fatal infection, maybe even requesting he go into quarantine for his own protection. That then backs up the timeline that the Founders were infected later on, implicating the mysterious Breen and clearing the nice open Federation.
And then the kicker, once all the other Founders die, Odo becomes the head of the Dominion, which then becomes a branch of the Federation, scaring the crap out of other powers. Then the nice public Federation begins rehabilitating the Dominion and its subraces (the Jem'hadar can be saved because the Federation has the medical technology to create or even eliminate the need for the White). In a few decades the Dominion races are converted to idolize and protect the Federation instead, which now includes the Gamma quadrant and its now liberated and grateful races. The Federation has Dominion technology and resources, which combined with Federation ingenuity become even more effective. (Tough luck next Borg invasion, kamikaze jem'hadar attacks with Starfleet adaptability providing fire support.) The Cardassians and the remnants of the Breen (and the Klingons under Martog) join the Federation because it is such an overwhelming power. The Romulan intelligence is controlled by Section 31. The Scimitar was easily detected with Polaron beams installed on all Federation ships soon after the war ended, courtesy of the now Federation controlled Dominion.
And Section 31 quietly purges all records of what it did, maybe even having all operatives involved agree to mindwipes of the specific memories (if they can be that precise with old memories?).
[And why didn't Sloan have Bashir's short term memory wiped when he refused to join. They could even very their approach and try a less sinister attempt at recruiting later. And seriously, they never tried genetically enhancing their own operatives? It was done to Bashir as a child.]
The only issue for the Federation is how long does Odo live and how do Changelings reproduce?(the scout Changeling Odo met is now infected and going around the galaxy infecting other scouts.) So who could Odo mate with, (or do they practice parthenogenesis?) and how ?
"Let's squish" !
Another thoughtful analysis. Thank you!
The Romulans were manipulated into the war by a Starfleet Captain and former Obsidian Order Agent.
9:16 "... not to make friends." Looking at my Stellaris game of fanatic xenophobic and militaristic fungie which their only goal is to cleanse the galaxy from this xeno flith. They are not here to do "friends".
Orks?
But more the Imperium of man…
The Imperium of Ork?
The issue I have with these plans is that they always rely on the federation being passive. Forget section 31 and focus on the feds having their own security. We only see them as inept due to the episodes where something slips past them (sometimes to massive consequences). However, after learning from issues with the romulans, cardassians, changelings, the Dominion war, etc, I feel they have only grown in knowledge and experience. I think it would be far harder than you think. Especially when you also have to factor in fed officers/crew being taught to think for themselves. that's often the best way to dent or stop plans like this.
This was wonderfully done.
You get the Discovery writers to continue writing and soon enough the whole star trek universe will be destroyed.
@Lycan True, so true.
wish i could double like your post
touche
Discovery is the BEST Star Trek show EVER bitch
@@romanparisi5503 You have fun with your STD. The rest of us will be avoiding it.
My favorite is that discovery of the risk of destroying subspace by use of their warp drives. The federation and Vulcan contact emerged from contact being allowed once civiliztions gain warp technology but if subspace became unusable due to a buildup of "warp subspace disruption" resulting in increasing risk of subspace tears, suddently the federation would go from having concordes to travel with to being swung back to travelling over oceans in triremes or rafts with insurance costs skyrocketing, interplanetary trade grinding to a halt, suddently even subspace messages start to turn into ham radio signals dependent on how the tachyon streams blow. Meanwhile civilizations that do not rely on "subspace warp" such as those using spore drives and transwarp conduits would gain an advantage. We could throw in the plot device that even the borg themselves are trying to find a cure for the destruction of subspace and assimilate species that start to use too much warp resulting in ripples in subspace that could cause severe damage, part of the reason for targeting earth is that the federation has made increasingly more powerful warp drives and with their expansion and growth there is increasing damage to spacetime. So yes the #1 thing that would bring the federation to their knees is a destruction of warp power - in that it becomes increasingly danagerous, colonies are cut off barley able to communicate, and the members essentially become isolated and use of Starfleet is reserved only where death would result by not using warp. Then we find out the dyson spheres were intended to weather the warp swarm by bringing in everyone to an ark to weather out the breakup of subspace, and the borg were created to delay and prevent the reemergence of the manraloth death event by stopping all from gaining sufficient technology to mettle with omega particles and the like.
There's also the whole Temporal Cold War thing and a general ban among the factions on interfering too much with the Federation, as in the timelines where it was destroyed, the Borg won and took over the galaxy.
If you did succeed in undermining the Federation, time traveling agents might step in to stop you.
Some of this sounds like what Palpatine did in Star Wars to take over the Republic
Your videos are great! Keep up the good work Sir.
I'm pretty sure Captain Sisko had something to do with the "uniting other powers against the Dominion" issue, especially where the Romulans were concerned.
You actually don’t need to beat SF but can do it vs the UFP directly. And this is from cannon:
1) disruption of subspace this affects everything from communications to space travel. As large as Star Fleet and it’s civilian fleets is they have limited numbers and can’t operate with out subspace access. Limiting this will radically harm the ability of the UFP and Star Fleet from dealing with the three hammer blows that follow and would wipe them.
2) create an item/program that permanently messes up replicators, power generation or both these are the key elements of their society that is largely free of needs. If suddenly they have to work at picking up the trash or saying you want fries with that the free love feds will have real issue. These are the two keys to earth and likely all other Federation of Planets societies - unlimited power and no personal needs unmet.
3) develop and use psi powers focused on illusion or material effects like disintegration and telekinesis. Most of the federation has issues with religion and this kind of tech freaks them out. Just the founders and their transformation ability nearly cause a collapse of Star Fleet command. In fact the Telosns have this ability and was the one of two species Star Fleet did not want contact with. This also is an active engine to the mania that will cripple The UFP.
4) Set off a disease. This is the ultimate Star empire killer. It is cannon that entire species run into a xenomorpix disease that spreads widely and then when it goes terminal it takes entire species at once. This is you cannon hammer that removes the federation.
The order I have is the order that the issues should happen in so each crisis compounds on the last. To ships bring in food. Replicators don’t work. I have the ability to take foot from others and they can’t see me (true invisibility) society gets disrupted as soon only those that can do this eat and everyone else starves to death or is killed. Then the item that gave you those inviblity powers kills. You and any of your species via airborne spores. Note I did not destroy Star Fleet or the civ ships. Slow them down and once the forth factor happens the ships will expend themselves to try to help affected worlds until they fall victim themselves or ground themselves or are powerless to move.
You are right on that the Dominion came real close to talking over the Federation
Wasn't there an episode in Next Generation where Enterprise C meet Enterprise D in an alternate universe. Where the Federation was losing a war against the Klingon empire.
It was not an alternative Universe. The Enterprise C had slipped into a time vortex pushing it into the future. By removing their sacrifice in protecting a Klingon colony, it lead to the eventual war that the Federation was indeed losing.
"Yesterday's Enterprise."
One might plant devices that destroy stars in key locations, and detonate them simultaneously. Multiple supernovae throughout the system? Yes please.
Id like to mention the iconian tech,mainly they're portal technology, you could use any weapon as long as its able to beat an enemy but with the herald portals it would throw starfleet off balance since you could attack any location at anytime along with having the ability to call the entire fleet at any given point in a fight. So say you want to attack hq but you need to divide and conquer. The iconian gatway basically lets you hit multiple targets at once while letting you stretch starfleet out then pick off those forces one at a time. Another option is to cause another super nova(like the romulan star did) and break starfleet at their core then putting heavy pressure on the survivors until they surrender. Third option is to piss the borg off to the point where theyre sending alot of ships after you,lead em to the sol system and just have starfleet assimilated,after that you then gotta deal with the borg again but hey at least you beat the federation
This goes to show how powerful and resourceful the UFP really is, in the grand scheme. This is a massive undertaking requiring years of preparation, a vast infiltration of very loyal spies and a big fleet. On top of that, time is not on your side when the war is declared. With the Dominion, the weak spot was the Founders. One virus, one strike, could have wiped out the Dominion. With the Federation, you need a lot more effort.
You actually have your head where it should be.
The Federation were able to keep all the other empires at bay with science vessels...they already had the best shiel tech there was...if you aren't going to fight...better be able to protect yourself...then when they decided to build a warship...it was basically a howitzer on a VW Beatle...the Defiant was waaaaay OP...but they got that shit working...then came the Akira and Sabre class...then the Sovereign class...but before any of that they went...hey...i got and idea...let's build a cloaking device for funsies...and not only will it hide us it will allow us to FLY THROUGH A FUCKING PLANET!!!!...people dont realize that all that science shit they were doing while whilst gallivanting around the galaxy was paying off...big time...Starfleet is like that nerdy kid that tried to be everyone's friend ....but he just kept getting bullied ...and then one day he snapped and everyone figured out he's a black belt in jujitsu as he was kicking their ass
I think a critical aspect of any invasion would be to repeatedly target smallish raids at different sector - arguments would quickly brake out over how defenses of them were prioritized and races that felt they were not sufficiently high priority would likely start withdrawing from the war-effort to protect themselves.
Three ways to defeat the Federation:
1) Dominate the Reapers and use them against the Federation.
2) Put the Infinity Gauntlet together and snap your fingers.
3) Use The Force.
There's also the wormhole aliens or Prophets, if Sisko didn't get them to vanish the Dominion Fleet things would have gone a lot worse.
The reason why the Dominion didn't conquer the Alpha Quadrant?
The actions of a humble simple tailor...
Thought they were a gardener
what if all the other powers ganged up against the Federation?
That's what you are trying to archive in the above scenario. That'd be game over for the Feddies.
Nope. Still wouldn't work. Plot armor too thick.
Doubtful they all kind of hate each other more than they hate the Federation, mostly because they tend to back stab each other after too long.
For the most part the other powers don't like each other much either, but by the 2380s-2400s the Federation is large enough to be the equal of their combined forces. In the non-canon books (which, despite being non-canon, have their own generally coherent timeline), the Romulans, Breen, Gorn, and Tholians formed their own Warsaw-pact style organization called the Typhon pact. The Typhon pact is arrayed against a strong alliance between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, in what is very obviously inspired by the Cold War. While the Federation and Klingons were both severely damaged by a large-scale Borg invasion (which ended in the destruction of the Borg), their alliance - initially formed largely out of mutual threat from the Dominion - has strengthened a great deal due to the sacrifices Federation and Klingon forces made to defend each other.
On the other hand, the trauma of the Borg invasion and the formation of the Pact has led to internal strife within the Federation, which led to Andoria seceding from it following the devastation of their homeworld by the Borg, and Romulan plots to lure them away from the Federation.
Dear CBS: I want Berman trek back, sincerely DS9 fan
Also from the one Enterprise fan!
Just imagine how much more effective the Federation would be if they had more specialized warships like larger versions of the Defiant class; and if they had specialized ground troops who wore armor. I'd bet that the Federation could use its technology to augment/enhance soldiers like the Spartans in Halo along with giving them powered armor.
Given the long history of conflict, I never understood the idea of discouraging development of combat specific troops. I would expect the member worlds would appreciate knowing the Federation had a few warships that could take out an enemy capital ship in a few shots, or ground troops that could overrun an aggressor's planet in a few day to weeks.
I would expect this to make the Federation much more appealing to non-aligned worlds in border regions who are concerned with being caught in a conflict between powers.
Yes. I also have issues with the Klingon war portrayal in DSC.
If you haven't done one already, I'd love to see you do a personnel file on Data
The Federation's weakness lies in its speed. It is careful and grows slowly, curates who joins, and often has a lot of bureaucracy to juggle. But that slow growth is also its strength, for it forges a strong sense of unity among a diverse and flexible array of species and technologies. And with that flexibility, comes a resilient form of adaptability. Give the Federation time, and there is no problem they cannot solve, no weapon they cannot counter, no strategy they cannot outwit.
I always imagined off screen the Federation fast tracked Andorions into Starfleet during the Dominion War. Too me it makes sense as Andorians are the most militant species with the Federation, so they'd be valuable in a wartime situation
another note is also use gurella tactics like have a few ships drop out of warp above a planet drop 5 or 6 photon torpedoes and warp to a near by planet stay in polar orbit which makes you hard to detect launch a small observation craft. then hide and wait for star ships coming to provide aid to arrive and cripple them to then hit the planet again with some more torpedos followed by using your tractor beam to rain their disabled star ships down on the civilians below causing death and chaos make the citizens question how safe they are. also hit and run star fleet star bases and other military installations to keep them off balance
I like the reference to the original storyline start for Star Trek Online :)
Jam subspace communications between outlying worlds and Earth, in order to enhance the sense of isolation.
Depending on the threat, i was always under the impression that C31 would be doing everything you just mentioned. Since it is their job to deal with potential threats, I think they will have this situation on lock down.
If Emperor Palpetine invited himself for tea, this could be a real problem!
Earth is were we make our final stand. We'll never be defeated. UFP will Endure!
THAT would be an interesting alternate timeline storyline...
If they were ever to do a DS9 film, or follow up mini series they could center it around an alternate sequence of events where the Dominion win/won ...
Or they could revisit the mirror universe to discover that the mirror Dominion has taken over, though that would have a much smaller audience that would even understand what was going on
As a huge star trek nerd i have to point out the fact you got wrong. In fact the borg did on both occasion when they attack the federation, make it to sector 001. in the episode the best of both worlds, the borg cube did in fact make it to the sol system before being stopped by the enterprise under the command of the redoubtable commander Riker.
The best way to defeat the Federation is with a 1960's style cultural revolution followed by a Soviet style tribalist culture where every group of 5 or 6 people is at war with all the others.
How the f*ck was Soviet culture tribalistic? My parents lived in USSR for more than 40 years, and they remember nothing of the sort. Not arguing about whether USSR was "good" or "bad", just pointing out that many people pull their opinions out of their asses, and do not actually know anything about Soviet history
@@KateeAngel He might be referring to the rather fractious nature of Soviet politics, but in either case he's almost surely relying on a particular one of his orifices.
What class of ship is that in all the game footage? I never got far in STO.
That map of the galaxy with the size of the states seems wrong. The Federation spans 8,000 lightyears, and the galaxy is only 100k lightyears across. I think it should be a bit bigger.
Everybody draws the map differently. One will have the Klingons and Romulans on opposite sides of the Federation; another has them sharing a border.
You're also forgetting though that space has an up and down. The closest way you could visualise it is looking at the PowerPlay map in Elite Dangerous. Borders change based on the angle you're looking at it. Taking a 2D cutaway just doesn't work.
I know. But I do remember a map where the Klingons and the Romulans had no common borders and had to "sneak" D7s from the Klingon to the Romulan Empire in the TOS time.
This comment is really both ironic and funny. We just found out that our milky way is a little bigger than we thought it was. Counting the far out stars our galaxy is 200k ly across.
@@SiXiam "Counting the far out stars our galaxy is 200k ly across." I thought you were referring to entertainment stars after fame gets to their heads. Those can be very 'far out'.
Get the ferengi to stop trade with them
I think the Q could do it easily. Literally with a snap of a finger, Thanos style, The UFP could vanish. But other than that, yeah, as you said, divide, discredit, and conquer.
Q doesn't count of course.
Develop some red matter devices, sieze control of a one way iconian gateway (that is a gate that one can pass through but does not allow anything to travel back the other way) then open iconian gates to the molten liquid zones of each worlds core. make sure you can do this for all federation member worlds. with the worlds gone, all that is left is to sit back and watch as the Federation's enemies pick off starfleet ships one by one. Or, the fleets of the Federation get absorbed by the Federation's allies. Either way, the federation, as an entity, is dead.
I think one of the keys to defeating the UFD is to infiltrate everything (including section 31) if possible. Then play along with its ideals as if you were a loyal member of the UFD. During this time watch how they handle themselves in different situations, analyze their battle tactics and political strategies, secretly study and replicate their technology... All while sowing the seeds of chaos and decent. Do the same thing to the UFD's allies and enemies. Also find away to create an outside threat (hence infiltrating the UFD's enemies). This will hopefully draw the UFD's attention away from their backs.
tinker a bit with the tribbles, do make them metamorph into psychotic little green monsters when you feed them after midnight
Where did you get the 7000 worlds number from? I recall Picard saying in First Contact "Over 250". That is about as canon as you can get. A very different number. Even if he meant star systems, and we average 10 planets per system, that is still well shy of your 7000.
7000 "affiliated" include planets and colonies worlds that merely trade or have peaceful diplomatic ties with the UFP. The actual direct members are only around 180 as of 2378. (Edit, added source: Star Trek Star Charts: memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_Star_Charts)
It's interesting how everyone underestimates the Federation. They think that they're naive or dumb because they sacrifice too much for peace. But the Federation employs more subtle long term strategies. The treaty with the Cardassians seems really stupid but if you look at all the episodes with Cardassians, a lot of them are about the Starfleet supporting anti-war members of the Cardassian military government or working with the Cardassian dissident movement. And in season 4 of DS9, the Cardassian civilian council was able to remove the military government peacefully and install a new government. If the Klingons hadn't invaded, the new Cardassian government probably would have signed a long term peace treaty with the Federation.
How to defeat the Federation: instill in humanity a sense of pride and remind them they've spent the last 150-300 years (depending on time frame) doing majority of the heavy lifting and being taken advantage of while being made to feel inferior by everyone else. It'll tear itself apart from the inside.
Now that the Dominion War is over, the Romulans stand the best chance if they could revisit their tactics.
They could infiltrate (non as successfully of course) and do all the sow chaos stuff spoken of in the video. Their cloaking device enables whole fleets to be stealthed, not knowing where they will turn up. If they were far more aggressive, instead of preferring to lead their quarry into traps, they could seriously make a run at the UFP.
some of these ideas kinda coincide with the ideas I've had for when the Terran Empire attempts a full scale invasion pf the normal universe but they have to get the Federation out of the way. The only way they did that was incite a massive civil war among all of the member worlds before amassing their fleet to invade. Next problem would be taking on the Klingons and then the Romulans
One thing I never understood was that why the dominion didn't have a cloaked fleet, they had that bird of prey from dukat, they could've just made copies of the tech or salvage a few from the fleet of clocked ships sent to attach their home world
Dominion ships are absurdly huge. It would be difficult to generate and subsequently hide the power necessary to generate a cloak around it. Their smaller sips are built for cost efficiency and not necessarily for effectiveness alone in combats (the tie fighter of Trek). The Dominion is all about intimidation and projecting strength. Cloak and dagger doesn’t serve that purpose.
9:06 This would be my overall strategy. One that is available to both the Romulans and Klingons, though the Klingon sense of honour would prevent them from engaging the Federation in this way.
You create a humanitarian crisis, by using wolf packs of cloaked ships to attack undefended civilian worlds. The wolf packs would target the infrastructure of the planet; power generation, weather control, communications hubs, etc. Whilst minimising civilian casualties. Keep the attacks random to prevent Starfleet from setting up defenses in your path. This will eventually strip the Federation of the resources and create a refugee crisis. Overwhelming other planets with an influx of 'mouths to feed'.
If Starfleet chooses to spread themselves out to protect as many worlds as possible, the wolf packs can merge and start taking out these small groups of ships with overwhelming force.
maybe an idea for things the federation has to improve on and/or peoples it could assimilate we already know?
Also when facing such a crafty opponent one should hold your best teck back - using it to end not start the war.
Could somebody tell me what's the actual name for the talarian goverment? I already have seen Talarian Republic and Talarian Empire and now it's suddenly Talarian Militia...
The Galaxy is big. One wonders what's on the other side of the Dominion. Something from the Center. Vastly bigger, richer, more subtle.
Make a video on the UN Spacey from SDF Macross (Not Robotech).
We need some animation Aliens like the Races from Ben 10 or Gems from Steven Universe, Mortal Kombot races could be good, then some DC and Marvel stuff.
ALL YOU NEED IS LOVE!
I have had an idea for a post voyager show for a while now that plays on a very similar premise. Basically I see the cardassian empire being like Iraq after the dominion way, that is a drain on the UFP as they try to help those poor, starving cardassians rebuild. The klingons could care less about their plight, but would likely still patrol to help the UFP deal with the prideful cardassian holdouts who would want to force foreign powers out of their territory(an insurgence using ships built out of wrecks salvaged from the war. Frankenstein ships piece together from various races technology).
However while most klingon resources would be diverted to rebuilding and modernising their fleet, the federation would be bled dry trying to rebuild cardassia, and likely not have the resources to build more than a handful of newer designs, seeing their fleet become more outdated as theyre forced to continue using ships that would otherwise be retired by now. While I'm sure any damage to UFP worlds would be quickly repaired, it's likely that ordinary citizens would feel the pinch as transporter and replicator use, as well as other essential services were rationed(they probably already are in some way, but likely in such a generous fashion that nobody would ever complain).
I'm sure the klingons would quickly tire of the situation, calling to either pull out and leave the cardassians to their fate, or take the gloves off and start punishing worlds who harbour terrorists(which would be practically all of them). Martok knows the federation wouldnt stand for extreme tactics being used against the cardassians, and refuses to abandon an ally. No doubt there would be opposing factions in the empire pushing for such an approach though. If the cardassian rebels managed to strike a major blow at the patrolling klingon forces, maybe take out their new flagship in a sneak attack, I think it's likely Martok could be challenged for leadership and killed, at which point the klingons go apeshit of cardassians, forcing the federation to step in and assemble a fleet to halt their advance. I think the UFP might be able to assemble a large enough fleet to convince the klingons to back down, but it would cost them their alliance and lead to a very hot cold war. The klingons would annex any cardassian worlds they controlled and expel any surviving cardassians from said worlds, further bogging down the UFP with refugees.
I think the UFP has been more than a match for the klingons for most of the TNG era, as they are much larger and have greater economic capability. The only thing holding them back was their pacifistic nature, which rapidly changed after the first borg invasion. I think even is a compromised state such as this if they gathered their forces along the klingon border and shifted to war preparation, victory might still seem dubious to the klingons. This move would however leave much of the federation vulnerable. Smaller enemies of the UPF who would otherwise never challenge the federation juggernaut may be encouraged by the klingons to take advantage of this weakened state.
With mercenaries and raiders going viking on the almost defenseless border worlds, said worlds might figure "we're diverting a good chunk of our resources to the cardassian rebuilding effort and reinforcing the klingon border and paying the price for it. Maybe we'd be better able to defend ourselves alone". I could see these worlds seceding from the federation individually or forming smaller alliances of their own, spelling the beginning of the end for the UFP
You forgot that 3 industrial replicators can basically rebuild an entire planet 10 years.
DS9 has 5 of them.
A galaxy class starship has 2
And industrial replicators could just replicate more of themselves
A small taskforce of Galaxy Class Starships could effectively finish rebuilding Cardassia within 2 years (or less) oh and don't forget that the federation could just teleport the infrastructure directly into place.
Watching this in preperation of Stellaris: Federations
Please create a video explaining the difference between Khan and his people in the Wrath of Khan and the Kelvin timeline. In the WofK, near as I can tell from Greg Cox, "The Eugenic Wars Part 1 & 2," all of the 71 elder adults were killed off during the Supernova and subsequent collapse of life on Ceti Alpha. We only saw the 30-or-so-odd children/offspring. In the Kelvin timeline, they seemed to all survive - ALL 71 of them. Does that mean that Lt. Marla McGivers is ALIVE and one of 71 reasons to save his crew at ALL COSTS?
If so, that VASTLY changes Khan's Kelvin motivations and is worth exploring.
You missed the one method that is so tangible yet complex in itself,
Take control of the sale of Root Beer
Seems very similar to how the Iconians approached taking on the Federation and the entire Alpha(/Beta) Quadrant(s) over the first ten seasons of Star Trek Online...
Wasn't the counter to the Breen energy dampener found by a Klingon ship?
Very compelling video, especially since one could also make the case that the Federation should never lose a war - if you put aside the factor of sheer grand strategic incompetency. A characteristic the UFP demonstrates many times over.
Foremost, the Dominion War should never have been fought at all. Their last minute attempts to stop travel through the wormhole is the prime example. To hell with exploration, mine or close that wormhole as soon as you realize a threat that great waiting on the other side. Whatever the political ramifications may be, everyone can just deal with it.
As for fighting an actual war, this is where things get interesting. Lest we ever forget how massive the Federation truly is on the whole. Starfleet has to assign its resources along their judgement of their greatest strategic priorities, which is no small decision. By its sheer size, it’s no easy power to ensure safety everywhere and always. When you consider the most important factor in a major conflict is concentration of force, they run into major strategic and operational difficulties.
That being said, the Federation has two incredible qualities that should ensure they win every war. Their technological capacity, and their ability to make friends diplomatically. The Dominion is aware of both of these abilities.
If you consider that roughly 1% of the US population serves in the military, apply that to the Federation population of some 850 billion. Even considering various races who are inherently pacific in nature, it is a fair figure by which to proceed. Vreenak speaks of a Federation manpower shortage, a baffling scenario given the UFP population figures. That should never be a problem, and frankly never be an issue with their technological prowess.
Also, why the hell are they wasting time building starships like the Galaxy class during the Dominion War? Time and resources dictate a far more effective option all around. Keep pumping out Defiant class starships until they’re blue in the face. Less people to man it, awesome fire power, and they fit in the proverbial palm of your hand. With replication technology, this is the clear and obvious choice.
The only reason the UFP could lose a war, is due to sheer incompetence against the Dominion. Will the cost be high? You bet your ass it will, but a little common sense and realistic planning would ensure their continued existence and sovereignty. Even when being pitted against a fanatical juggernaut like that of the Dominion. However the fact they’re fighting them at all speaks to their inherent decision making deficiencies.
_"Also, why the hell are they wasting time building starships like the Galaxy class during the Dominion War? Time and resources dictate a far more effective option all around. Keep pumping out Defiant class starships until they’re blue in the face. Less people to man it, awesome fire power, and they fit in the proverbial palm of your hand. With replication technology, this is the clear and obvious choice."_
Until you remember that Galaxy Class Starships have 275 photon torpedoes, onboard replicators large enough to support other ships, and superior phaser coverage. The Odyssey being destroyed was basically the opposite of plot armor, and the refit Galaxy Class ships we see later in the war happily outperform the Defiant class.
Idazmi7 The Galaxy-Class capabilities are not in question, the issue is very limited time and resources - even in a post scarcity society. Galaxy-Class vessels are major construction efforts. Very detailed and time consuming, requiring all of the vital non-replicable resources requisite to produce it. Namely the engineering brain trust involved, qualified personnel during construction and ultimate crew compliment. For those reasons alone it is largely impractical to focus major wartime production on their creation in large numbers.
To win a war, it isn’t always necessary - or even perhaps sound strategy - to focus production on the most technologically advanced hardware to achieve victory. Instead focusing wartime production on extremely capable starships (e.g. Defiant class) that are produced in massive quantities has historically proven more sound. In doing so, it streamlines Federation starship production on a vessel that is very deadly, extraordinarily capable, and altogether more straight forward to produce. This of course is not done to the exclusion of all other modern Federation vessels, but winning a war against an adversary like the Dominion requires quality through quantity. It is surely the way the Dominion fights in many regards.
It boils down to the difference between over engineering and good wartime engineering. The Germans learned this lesson in harsh fashion during the Second World War. The Western Allies, specifically the industrial juggernaut United States, almost never outclassed Germany along the lines of the most advanced weapon platforms. Whereas Germany had major wartime production issues often creating new advanced versions of their equipment, and causing numerous bottlenecks. The US simply overwhelmed them by producing mass amounts of war material that while not as technologically advanced, got the job done with mind boggling numbers.
This example is just as applicable in the fictional 24th century of Star Trek, as it was in the mid 20th century historically.
+Paul DiCostanzo
_"(...) winning a war against an adversary like the Dominion requires quality through quantity. (...) It boils down to the difference between over engineering and good wartime engineering. The Germans learned this lesson in harsh fashion during the Second World War. (...) This example is just as applicable in the fictional 24th century of Star Trek, as it was in the mid 20th century historically."_
So basically, you want to build a lot of M-4 Shermans, like in WWII. The problem with your analogy is that the Galaxy Class, Nebula Class, New Orleans Class and similar ships use standardized parts, like the entire Starfleet from TOS did. The Defiant was actually one of those expensive German-style "wonder weapons" that cost more to produce than it output, and malfunctioned until even _more_ was spent on reinforcing it's power conduits to keep it from flying apart. During the Dominion War, there were exactly three Defiant Class ships: out of them, only the Defiant II survived the war. Valiant was destroyed after it tried to take on a Dominion battleship, instead of sticking to the smaller and cheaper "bug" ships the Dominion always likes to use, and the first Defiant was destroyed by the Breen energy dampener. The Federation Attack Fighter was *_far_* cheaper than the Defiant, and essentially did the same thing in battle.
By contrast, we saw multiple flights of _newly constructed_ Galaxy Class star ships in the same conflict. The Galaxy Class ships flew in "wings" that covered each other with their phaser arcs - something the Defiant class simply cannot do, with it's forward-fixed pulse phasers - and proved to be far more effective at controlling the outcome of all the battles they participated in. Also unlike the Defiants, they were often retrievable at minimal cost after damages were done.
Idazmi7 There are a great many assumptions in your statement, namely that there were only four Defiant Class ships in commission. To be accurate, we only see four Defiant class ships on screen (once in Voyager, three in DS9). One of those were being manned and captained by essentially a JROTC unit with delusions of grandeur. We can only speculate what might be possible off screen.
As for the Defiant Class itself, it is for all intents and purposes a Federation warship - neatly called an escort vessel. None of the other ships you have mentioned are specifically designed to fight and destroy above all else. The Defiant class is uniquely designed originally to fight the Borg, but it is just as applicable against the Dominion. Moreover by the time fighting really breaks out against the Dominion, Sisko & company have already long ago shaken out the various design problems that put it in mothballs to begin with. If they hadn’t, I doubt the crew would have been too keen to use it in heavy combat. Moreover very little at all was spent figuring out the kinks of the Defiant. From what we can see, it required the interest of a single competent engineering crew. Hardly a earth shattering investment.
To be sure, your Wonder Weapon analogy holds zero water at all. So called German wonder weapons were wholly impractical, completely experimental, and demanded a great many resources for little gain. None of which is true about the Defiant class. The more accurate analogy would be comparing the Defiant class to that of the U-Boat. The U-Boat could have been a war winning weapon if the Kriegsmarine had focused early German naval construction on them. As opposed to the Battleships, pocket Battleships and heavy cruisers they prioritized. With more U-Boats in 1939 and 1940, Germany may well have interdicted Britain right into surrender. Whereas a loss like the Bismarck or Graf Spee were truly irreplaceable. They were also completely impractical given Germany’s primary naval foe the Royal Navy. With 300 operational U-Boats in January 1940, it may have been an entirely different outcome.
The beauty of the Defiant class is not only it’s fighting ability, but if one is destroyed then Starfleet is not at a great loss. That is if it is also being produced in vast quantities. That is true of destroying one Defiant class vessel or 50. They’re so small, while requiring so few personal to comparatively man the ship. Starfleet gains so much from its presence in combat, and yet loses little if they’re destroyed.
A vessel that is simpler to produce, more resource effective to create, time efficient in the yard, while also proving to be an absolute nightmare to the enemy is something special. The Federation, if undertaken properly, could build this ship faster than the enemy could destroy them. By any modern definition, that is a war winning weapon. Whereas the loss of any other ship you mentioned would be a far greater setback. Just because those starships have standardized replaceable parts does not mean they’re well suited for conflict of this nature. Nobody is suggesting they go away, but they pale in comparison to the value of the Defiant class produced in large numbers for war against a galactic superpower.
One must also consider the necessary increase in Starfleet ranks to fight the war. This is not addressed in the show, but is a reasonable extrapolation when considering military necessity in this conflict. There would have to be plenty of Federation citizens stepping up to join Starfleet purely for the war effort, addressing the demand for more people. It makes eminently greater practical sense to have less ships to specifically train for than a wide variety of classes. Even more so when you consider many of said people are not, nor will be Starfleet careerists.
It’s interesting you should mention the Sherman, because that is indeed a very fine example of quality through quantity. As awesome as a German Panther or Tiger tank was, their individual prowess and comparatively few numbers produced meant they were never to be war winning weapons. With the Panther and Tiger variants combined, the Germans produced less than 8,000 units overall. For all the various comparative aspects of a Sherman to the best German tanks of the time, the Sherman had the most important decisive characteristic - a major differential in quantity produced in the neighborhood of 50,000. The same was true for the Soviet T-34 wartime variants, producing about 80,000. On the strategic level there is simply no way to match that over the long haul.
+Paul DiCostanzo
_"There are a great many assumptions in your statement, namely that there were only four Defiant Class ships in commission. To be accurate, we only see four Defiant class ships on screen (once in Voyager, three in DS9). One of those were being manned and captained by essentially a JROTC unit with delusions of grandeur. We can only speculate what might be possible off screen."_
Yes, because both the first and second battles of Chin'toka, and Operation Return would all lack ships as important and powerful as the multiple other Defiant class ships Starfleet (supposedly) constructed, right? Not a chance.
_"It’s interesting you should mention the Sherman, because that is indeed a very fine example of quality through quantity. As awesome as a German Panther or Tiger tank was, their individual prowess and comparatively few numbers produced meant they were never to be war winning weapons. (...) On the strategic level there is simply no way to match that over the long haul."_
See above: there clearly *aren't* a lot of Defiants to go around. In addition: the Sherman was phased out in favor of far heavier tanks meant to be nearly impenetrable to enemy fire. Are you saying that the world's most powerful military is making a massive tactical mistake?
_"As for the Defiant Class itself, it is for all intents and purposes a Federation warship - neatly called an escort vessel. None of the other ships you have mentioned are specifically designed to fight and destroy above all else."_
And none of the ships I mentioned lack lateral and rear firing arcs like the Defiant class, none of them are as small and easily destroyed once they lose their shields, none of them are anywhere near as prone to overloads and breakdowns, and none of them totally lack point-defense like the Defiant does.
_"The Defiant class is uniquely designed originally to fight the Borg, but it is just as applicable against the Dominion. (...) Moreover very little at all was spent figuring out the kinks of the Defiant. From what we can see, it required the interest of a single competent engineering crew. Hardly a earth shattering investment. (...) To be sure, your Wonder Weapon analogy holds zero water at all. So called German wonder weapons were wholly impractical, completely experimental, and demanded a great many resources for little gain. None of which is true about the Defiant class."_
Excuse me. From Memory Alpha: *The prototype Defiant performed poorly on its trial runs. The vessel was overpowered and over-gunned for a ship of its size - so much so that the Defiant nearly shook itself apart when the engines were tested at full power. These design flaws, combined with the decreased urgency of the Borg threat, led Starfleet to abandon the project and place the prototype in storage. The Dominion threat discovered in 2370 led Benjamin Sisko, now the Commander of the station Deep Space 9, to pull the prototype vessel out of storage. The ship was assigned to his station and it was officially christened that same year on stardate 47538.5. Thanks to the efforts of DS9's chief of operations, Miles O'Brien many of the original ship's design flaws, such as its structural integrity field, were fixed.*
The engineering crew of Deep Space 9 had been working on hybridizing outdated Cardassian technology with state-of-the-art Federation tech for _years._ That's the only reason the Defiant ever got fixed and used, and that was after the Federation had the project basically _shelved_ for inefficiency.
_"The beauty of the Defiant class is not only it’s fighting ability, but if one is destroyed then Starfleet is not at a great loss. That is if it is also being produced in vast quantities. That is true of destroying one Defiant class vessel or 50. They’re so small, while requiring so few personal to comparatively man the ship."_
Size does not equal cost. It's not the Galaxy class that needs overhauled structural integrity fields to keep from blowing itself up when it's engines turn on - and despite that, it has respectable firepower and far more respectable weapons coverage: the Galaxy class has repeatedly demonstrated that it can take out Dominion and Cardassian warships with the same ease as the Defiant, from angles the Defiant cannot attack from, and can shoot down both torpedoes and fighters from almost any angle. We saw the Enterprise and the Defiant take on Maquis fighters: three guesses which one cleared out a whole squadron in less than ten seconds.
1. capture Federation vessel. 2 use it to provoke incident with Romulan Star Empire 3. start whatever you actually plan when space dust settles... and in the meantime, repeat the process with Tholians.
Use the hologram's as many resent the federation for how they are treated and are easy to mass produce soldiers that can be programmed to your ideals. They can also phase shift which is useful in a battle. For an example see star trek voyager first seasons first few episodes especially those centralised around the emh
Now I need a show about THIS!!! Retcon all that Daniels said in ENT as a different federation than the one we are familiar with.
After decades of war with formidable opponents, the federation began a period of peace unlike anything the Galaxy had seen beforehand. This led to battles becoming myth, and heroes legends that the masses could watch from afar, a time almost forgotten to man and alien alike.
But demise lurked beyond the borders. First it was natural phenomena that wrecked havoc with Federation technology, then the darkening of many suns, leaving most with nothing but the clothes on their backs, and sleeper ships where they’d reside.
And then, they appeared, 3 ships of immense power before the edge of the Galaxy. Stripped all nebulae buffering intergalactic space.
After than, not much is known, only that the Galaxy was reverted to a primitive stage of evolution. As punishment for apathy, declared by godships they knew nothing about...
Another hindrance the Dominion suffered from was sheer stagnation. They are the only real power in a section of the galaxy that seems a graveyard of bygone empires it never had to contend with. So by simply building a lot of big ships got them by for a long time. Comparatively they are not the most technologically sophisticated threat the Federation had encountered by a long shot. The Dominion essentially is a big kid that’s gotten by on just being big without having to do much real fighting and decided to start making enemies in an area of the galaxy with civilizations that have used each other as grindstones to sharpen their swords for centuries.
The Dominion lost the war because of two factors. One, they were cut off from the Gamma Quadrant. Without their established supply lines, and military production facilities, the Dominion was forced to rely on Cardassian ship yards and supply lines. This diminished their capacity for war a bit. Second factor was the Founder plague. The female shapeshifter was isolated from her people, and dying at the same time. This would cause her to become desperate, and desperation causes lapses in judgment.