Best series of videos on the 870 ever done! Even more impressive considering you made these videos in the early years of UA-cam instruction videos. Absolutly classic!
Excellent video, glad you clarified the lifter issue that I had heard about! Proud Remington 870 Police owner here! 7 + 1 capacity, slug sights, 6 round side-saddle ( Had to modify the front grip) 5 round soft sock on the butt stock and looking to install a recoil reducing stock instead of the factory wood. You were very eloquent and got right to the point! Keep 'em coming!
I still own the 870 I got in 1971, and I've had 2 or 3 carrier jams while hunting with it. Each jam happened when I was loading with gloves on. I never pulled the trigger group to clear the jam, but I'd pull the barrel, then disassemble the magazine and slide the offending round out through the mag tube. When the gun was converted for home defense, I installed a flexitab kit.
+bwhip Yeah, if you're using a vintage 870 for sporting or recreational applications, the old-style action parts work just fine, and if you fumble a reload, the jams aren't all that hard to clear. But if an old 870 is going to have lives depending on it, it really should have its action updated.
My experiences go WAY back BEFORE the flex tab became an option/solution. I had (still have) an 870 18 slug barrel w/rifle sight and a two round mag extension that I USED to carry in my squad and this was BEFORE the AR became an alternative (although a couple of the deputies did get the then brand new Armalite AR-180s. I was comfortable with the 870 UNTIL I went to the range just to run a few rounds through it since it got a lot of visibility, but no use! Well, what a "wake up call" I had when I went to cycle the action to chamber a round!!! That magazine tube with six rounds of slugs (it wouldn't have made ANY difference in what shot load) had sat through a hot Kansas summer, locked in the electric safety rack and ALL of the rounds (plastic cased) had swollen just above the case head enough to where they wouldn't chamber!!! The extra tension from the mag spring plus the weight if the extra rounds plus the heat allowed these rounds to expand, rendering the shotgun unusable!!! It didn't take but a few seconds to go over ALL those instances where I had it at the ready, but LUCKILY not having to use it, not even to the point of cycling it. Now, in fairness, that ALSO happened to my Ithaca 37 "police" (factory 7 round mag tube) as I safely found out right after the 870 event. At that time I was an unpaid Reserve and we had to provide our own arms and I made a vow to my expecting wife that I "would be home every time"!!! I carried a small dose of paranoia and since our "beats" covered a lot of territory, we had to be self reliant since backup response time could have been measured with a calendar and not a stop watch!!! And our "communications equipment" wasn't much better than two tin cans and a string! Our frequencies were just a few step above the old Citizens Band. So I also carried a Walther PPK .380 on me and my own Remington 700 in .308W, a backup S&W 29, and extra ammo in the trunk in addition to my Colt 1911 .45ACP (personally approved by the Sheriff himself) w/2 spare mags on my duty belt and 4 more in my back pockets. I was young and healthy then!!! And back then a "foot chase" was where the deputy took three steps followed by a loud "BANG"!!! If I had the option then that they have these days, there would have been a AR, Mini-14, or some comparable semi (or select/full) auto rifle in that rack!!! Do I have a shotgun at the ready in my house, yes, BUT I change out the ammo every month or so and check to make sure they are safe to keep in the gun!!!
+Big FED01 That's an important lesson. Paper or plastic shells certainly can deform if kept in a magazine for an extended period of time (this goes for both tube and box magazines, by the way), so they should be inspected regularly, and replaced if they show any signs of bulging or deformation. Repeated loading and unloading can also chew up the metal rims of shotshells, potentially leading to feeding or extraction failures. A good way to keep shotshells fresh is to shoot what you were keeping in the gun during practice sessions, and load the gun with new ammo afterward. But for those who don't practice frequently enough and/or don't want to keep buying expensive defensive shells, a weekly inspection should suffice. This is also a reason I like to steer people away from the "extra-power" magazine springs. These are a popular upgrade because some police shotguns use them, but it's a mistake to assume that law enforcement and home defense applications are identical when it comes to equipment. In a police gun that's used frequently, the extra cycle life can be nice to have, and the increased wear & tear on the shells doesn't matter much when those shells are used soon after being loaded. But for a HD shotgun that mostly just sits around, the extra spring force will make shell deformation more likely, while adding nothing to reliability.
@@donaldmack2307 yeah kinda.. a problem all shotguns that use paper or plastic shells in a tubular mag I guess. Military used to use brass shotgun shells.
This was extremely helpful, thanks! Especially the side-by-side with the internals. It's good to know what each piece does when you disassemble, clean, and reassemble them.
I've owned these guns, off and on, for years. Keep coming back to them. Never really looked at it quite the way you've presented this information. I'm 7 minutes in, already want to comment that you are very thorough, and have a great disposition about you. What a nice young man, your father has a lot to be proud of. Excellent review, dumfounded with all the extra information you've provided. Clearly you know this model backwards and forwards, I commend you. Great Information!
Great channel! You're doing an awesome job at educating about the 870. One thing I've found that has been critical to proper functioning, and that is keeping the forend rails lubricated. Times when I've had feeding and/or ejection issues, my rails were very dry and giving them a nice coat, not dripping, of a good gun oil has resolved the problems. So I'd advise anyone having problems, before you go searching for solutions, make sure your gun is cleaned and lubed and see if that doesn't provide a fix. I recently was having an issue with the shell carrier getting stuck in the up position, jamming rounds. Hadn't lubed my gun in quite a while, so I disassembled it, gave it a cleaning, put a drop of oil on the three oiling points in the trigger assembly as shown in the owner's manual, ran a patch with a little Ballistol down the barrel and wiped clean with a boresnake, sprayed Ballistol on the bolt and carrier, wiped clean, and gave the rails a decent wipe of MP7 Pro gun lube. My gun is now working nice and smooth, the shell carrier problem is gone. Regarding the dog carrier upgrade, I spoke to my gunsmith and he said if I'm not having problems, it's best to leave the original spring. The new one might cause problems that I didn't have before.
Its nice to finally hear a well articulated individual doing a review, you did your homework, keep up the good work. Just f.y.i im a mossy guy, but would never pass up the opportunity to run some lead through a Remington.
The Ithaca Model 37 Featherlight is absolutely beautiful! My dad has one that he bought new in 70’s, identical to your father’s except for the fore (his is smooth with finger grooves I believe). I absolutely love the Featherlight! I used to shoot a case of target load every other weekend at countless sporting clays. Nothing shoulders as cleanly, tracks as well, or reaches out as far as that irreplaceable masterpiece. I love letting friends break a few clays with it because it always put a massive smile on their faces. I am having trouble with it releasing rounds from the magazine properly. It’ll fire the chambered shell, eject the spent round, but the mag round does a number of different things that always result in a jam/empty chamber after cycling the action. I am nervous to disassemble it because I am not confident in the inner workings and I don’t want to break/create an unsafe firearm for later use. Want to do a T&T on the 37 Featherlight? Or maybe a deep dive into the Ithica manufacturing/history? Also, my dad has mentioned having his trigger/safety replaced by the factory after having the shotgun fire while safe and without touching the trigger
I have fixed more than one of that problem by chucking a 12 ga brass cleaning brush in a cordless drill and cleaning/de-burring the chamber. Great and informative video by the way. We seem to have similar tastes in scatterguns.
Very clear, informative and precise explaination as to the different types of carrier types both pros n cons. Excellent videos! I recoment these videos to any body especially those new to the firearm cummunity or to those not clear as to what/which firearm to purchase. Good work man!
Dude u are amazing u know so much about these guns!! I am 12 and last years I saved up to buy my own gun after alot of research I decided on the remington 870, was a shocker to my family because I usually don't buy wat everyone else has. I had started to regret buying it even though it is a FANTASTIC gun, but after this video I started to feel better about my choice. :)
Great educational video. I own both a Remington Wingmaster and a Mossberg 500. I have experience with both on a professional level too. Mosberg 590A1 with the Marines and a Remington 870 Police Magnum as a police officer. I can say from experience both are devastating bang sticks. I my opinion one is not better than the other. It boils down to preference of the layout of the manual or arms. As for ghost loading. It was taught to me in the military or police so I never advocate it to anyone.
Dude! You make extrmely educated and well laid out vids! I'm a long time 870 owner and love it! Best pump made ever! The best auto though has to be a Benelli m4. But thanx for this brother
Awesome job! I commend you for such a concise and clear explanation of your thoughts as well as demonstrations of everything you are talking about. Great video and I can only hope you continue to create such videos in the future.
Thank you for a very helpful video. I've had my Remington 870 for years but have never used it and was looking for a video explaining how to operate. Your video was a great help
I tried ghost loading with my Remington 870 Express Tactical and it hung up the follower in the mag tube . Plus it took to much screwing around just trying to do it in the first place . I thought by practicing it would make it easier , it didn't . And after the follower got hung up I decided ghost loading wasn't for me , not with this shotgun anyways . Good video !
i am so sick of these 870 haters that alway perpetuate this myth. you are exactly right on this. most of these myths are strictly from mossberg fanboy that are just jealous that the 870 has a better design
You sound just like the guys you just called fanboys. Mossbergs and Remingtons are both good designs. Each has advantages. Relax bro.. nobody hates your 870
Absolutely had him reinstall the factory sear. I called Timney's technical support and they are perplexed. The asked me to send them their sear and the trigger assembly out of my 870 and they will check it.
Reading the queue card above the camera gives you a wild stare, but I can put up with crazy eyes if you keep making such excellent videos. Really, really excellent work.
I can tell you put a lot of work into this video...Great job! Very informative, (subed)...I think I'm one of the, few, remaining LEO shotgunners left in the U.S., (seems the AR took over), but I love the versatility of the 870/590 and the presence it creates when the slide is racked... and I feel that the combat shotgun is becoming a "lost art". Glad to see some young enthusiasts still out there.
What an amazing and informative vid! I haven't even finished a quarter of the vid, and your analysis of lightweight shotgun banter is...refreshing. As I have been training on a 870 and Ithaca 37, I'm searching the Internet for useful info on my first shotgun purchase. This vid diminished my apprehension on the 870's carrier. Thanks.
The carrier really isn't that big of a deal. It just doesn't make much of a difference once you practice with it and get used to it. Having used both the 37 and 870, I would definitely go with the 870 for a fighting or multi-role gun. It's just a lot more versatile and robust, and easier to take apart & work on when necessary. They both make great field guns, though. I like the Ithaca's lighter weight, and the fact that it drops fired hulls right at your feet (I reload, so that's handy). The controls are laid out really nicely as well. I'd probably shoot it a lot more if it had a proper recoil pad.
The Stevens (Savage) model 350 uses the Ithaca action and has a built in recoil pad. Good review. I have the model 320 which is built on the Winchester 1300 action.
99% of the video is great. I wouldn’t have said a word about “ghost loading” though, IMO. I’ve got a feeling that definitely increased the number of jammed 870s, because a surprising amount of people will prioritize 1 extra round over positive function. This will most likely be the same group that worry about that last 100 FPS from all their ammo. I really like your videos though and I subscribed, I just don’t agree on that one thing.
Thank you for your opinions! You speak so clearly and confidently on all of this and I learned a few things here. I have recently come into possession of ones of these (870 Wingmaster) and really didn't know much about it.
I own an 870 clone (NEF pardner pump), and I love it, but I like the option of shooting mini shells, and they don't feed well in anything but Mossberg 500's 590's and Maverick 88 12 guage shotguns and then only with the Opsol mini clip installed.
Well done, I have had the opportunity over the years to receive a great deal of training and given training on the use of the patrol shotgun. Your comments regarding safety, and the carrier design of these types of platforms was well thought out and easily understood. When I started in my profession we used the Smith and Wesson 3000, very similar to the Remington 870 however the Smith and Wesson had the modified shell carrier. We eventually went to the 870 after the modification in the carrier. I also used a sawed off 870 for high risk entry work for several years until these weapons were replaced with MP-5 sub guns. I find it interesting that Remington is now offering a factory, short stock and barrel shotgun which looks very similar to the guns we modified for close entry work decades ago. I have experience with multiple shotguns and action types but still have high regard for the 870 design and still recommend this platform to new and experienced shooters. I liked your mannerism, voice inflection ect. enough that I recommend that you do a video on the break down and maintenance for this platform as well as support hand reloads.
Hi ya buddy! Very nice video! I've been having problems with my Wingmaster. It's an old one with an 18" bbl. I added a magazine extension, among other things that make it tactical. I loaded with 00 buck, and put it in the safe. One nice day I took it out to run some drills. The first few rounds were hard to chamber, as the last few were smooth as butter. I thought something was causing the action bars was the problem of the hangup. I completely stripped it down, everything was in order, without any ammo, the action was great. As I inspected the 00 shells I noticed that the top was somewhat "mushroomed". Now I've learned, never leave more than 3, 4, in the tube for any length of time. I've sanded a little of the top of the shell (that was "mushroomed") and run them before I load a tube to the top! you've about the best videos on you tube, keep it up!
+Earl Wheeler Shells that are kept in the magazine for an extended period of time can eventually deform and have trouble feeding reliably. If you keep a loaded shotgun around for HD, it's recommended that you inspect the shells on a regular basis, and replace any that are starting to get out-of-shape. Use the old ammo for practice, so that you - and any other family members who may need to repel boarders - can remain familiar with how your gun & ammo behave together. The magazine spring can also have an effect here. A lot of folks install extra-heavy magazine springs because those are supposed to be more "tactical" or something, but these "extra power" springs are often heavier than necessary for reliable feeding. Once a spring is strong enough to feed shells properly (an admittedly tricky point to nail down, since it is affected by many things that tend to vary from person to person), going heavier only makes things harder on the shells. With regular inspection & replacement of the shells, and a spring that's appropriate for your particular situation, a defensive shotgun can safely be kept with a fully-loaded magazine.
Thank you Sync, pretty much what I was thinking. Even though this is an older model "Wingmaster" it has less than 30 rounds fired. It looks factory fresh. I've noticed that when there's about 3 shells left(after shooting a full magazine), the action is much smoother. I've also noticed that if I loosen the magazine extension about a quarter turn that it runs much smoother. I used the spring that came with the extension tube. Do you think I could cut about 1/2"- 3/4" off the spring could help. Btw, I'm not going to blame you if doing so doesn't work. ;-)
+Earl Wheeler It really depends on the brand & capacity. Some extensions like those from S&J hardware come with very long springs so that the user can trim them to the length/stiffness that works best for them; but some folks don't realize this, and just stuff the entire thing in without cutting it at all. Others, like the Remington +2, share springs with longer extensions (the Remington +3 in this case) to simplify things, so you can afford to trim the springs for the smaller extensions a little if they're stiffer than you need. On the other hand, other extensions may have springs that are already sized specifically for that setup, so trimming can lead to unreliable function. As an extreme example, the Vang Comp +2 has a very weak spring that has trouble feeding correctly unmodified, so trimming it even shorter would be a very bad idea.
Huh! I was trying to figure out the purpose of that lifter notch last week. It's too obvious to just 'be there' without any reason but for the life of me I couldn't figure out what it was supposed to do. Now I know. Thanks!
I recently bought some dummy shells and decided to try it with my 870 the other evening before watching this video. Maybe it's just because they don't weigh as much as a live round, but it would cause a jam condition where the extracted shell did not want to eject. Instead, it hung up in the receiver with the ghost loaded dummy round pushing up against it. My conclusion on it was that the 1 extra round was not worth the chance of a malfunction if reliability of the gun was most important. Pretty much an unnecessary trick.
@@J.E.Taylor Yeah, ghost-loading is a pretty hack way to try to up the capacity of an 870. Installing a magazine extension is a much better way to boost capacity.
Very informative, good video. I am not a big fan of ghost loading but I am glad you prefaced that in the video that you probably shouldn't do it if you have to depend on the gun 100 percent.
I cleaned and reassembled a 20 ga lightweight 870. Now the shell carrier doesn't drop back down, causing the next shell from the magazine to be ejected onto the ground. I need HELP!! Very well done video,sir!
Been gathering ideas to update an old wingmaster into something more appropriate for home and/or camp. Thank you so much for the videos and forum posts--truly a wealth of information. If you could spare a moment, I'm interested in your opinion on reliability improvements I could make for defensive purposes. I've sourced a modern flexitab breech assembly, slide, and carrier assembly; these strike me as the most meaningful updates and do much in the way of mitigating operator error. Are there any other updates you would consider essential? Updated forend tube assembly or the police variant upgrades to various springs? None of the other updates I'm aware of seem particularly urgent or significant to me, but I'm ready to be wrong on that. In any case, thank you for your time and consideration!
Yeah, flex-tab upgrade for sure. A new fore-end tube assembly is an optional fourth item in the flex-tab update. It's not essential, but the new-style action bars will engage a little more solidly with the new-style slide assembly, and the camming surfaces that engage the shell latches are longer and more gradually-angled, so the action runs smoother. Remington also beefed-up the shell latches at some point. The new-style ones are a little stiffer and heavier-built to stand up better to hard use. I forget what year they switched, but the two versions are easy to tell apart. Old-style have two staking recesses per latch, new-style ones have six. A little bit of a pain to change though, since it takes some special tools to stake shell latches into the receiver. If you have old-style ones and they're in good shape, you probably don't need to worry about it. I also like several of the aftermarket magazine followers that are out there. Not because the factory followers are flimsy or unreliable (though some of the really old steel followers can cause minor issues in certain circumstances), but because the aftermarket upgrades add some safety features through high-visibility colors and features that let you easily feel when the magazine is loaded or empty by touch alone. My favorites are the ones from S&J Hardware. Police springs are over-rated in my opinion. They do have some benefits, but they're not simply universally better just because they're used in LE models, as a lot of the internet seems to think. They have trade-offs, which is why Remington didn't just put them in everything. The Police magazine spring (this only applies to non-extended 4-round magazines by the way) is longer and pushes shells with more force. This can improve feeding reliability if you're shooting hard-kicking shells and running the gun really (and I mean REALLY) fast. It also obviously has more room to wear out before becoming too weak to work properly, which can be a nice bit of extra insurance for a P.D. shotgun that may not see the maintenance it really ought to, but still needs to be relied upon when things go bad. The downside is that the longer, stiffer spring makes it easier to fumble a reload if your technique isn't great, and it takes up more space in the tube and potentially reduces capacity with some shells. Also, the extra force is harder on shells during feeding, or even when they're just sitting in the magazine. In a hard-use gun that gets loaded, shot, and then loaded again, this isn't a big deal. For home defense or other civilian roles, the same shells are likely to be left in the tube for longer periods of time, and/or loaded and unloaded multiple times before actually being fired. Battered shell rims or deformed bodies can cause all manner of malfunctions. The heavier carrier dog follower spring in the Police 870s is kind of a similar thing. Stiffer spring, lasts longer if the gun is neglected, etc. Downside is it makes the action stiffer to cycle since there's more friction and resistance in the carrier mechanism. And again, easier to mess up a reload since it takes significantly more force to push the carrier up and out of the way. I tried it, didn't like it, and went back to the standard spring. I don't even know how many thousands of rounds have been through my 870, but I've never had an issue with the carrier function. The Police trigger spring just makes the trigger pull heavier. That's it. It's not more durable, or better-made, or more reliable, or anything like that. It's just to give you a heavy trigger for situations where a little less accuracy is worth decreasing the likelihood of an unintentional discharge.
@@SynchronizorVideos I'll keep an eye out for a decent deal on the upgraded action bars. Would you say the shooter experiences a tighter feeling lockup from this upgrade? Other than that, all I've got lined up is the Hogue 12 inch stock and forend. Ugly as sin like everything they make, but many shooters claim to enjoy the shorter LOP for applications outside of hunting/sporting. The idea of a light interests me, but all the good ones seem to be pricey! Thank you so much for the response brotha--your content has saved me hours of headache!
@@SynchronizorVideos was able to review a bunch of the blog reviews on 870 accoutrements; ended up with the Hogue 12 inch stock, a hi-viz snap-on front sight, and Streamlight forend with an integrated light. I think the Streamlight is an exciting addition to the 870 catalog. Surfire was the only game in town for wayyy too long. At $100-$150, this is a wildly competitive product that oughta take lots of market share from its dance partner. Would love to see ya'll review one, if such a review isn't already in the works! Also, after reading your review, I went for the Wilson Combat +2 extension. This is already a lot more than I've ever put on a vanilla firearm, so I'm drawing the line here--build complete! It was a really fun project. Been shooting 870s for years and I still learned a lot through the channel and blog--particularly regarding aftermarket products. Thanks again brotha!
Loved this video. I followed your advice and bought an extension. I just installed it and it is great. It was called a 10 round extension but in reality it adds 5 rounds which gives me 9 + 1. OK that's 10 rounds but it does not add 10 as the name implies. Corrected a small typo.
The standard (more or less) notation for extensions is to refer to them by the additional capacity they provide; +3, +5, +18, etc. This is a very straightforward notation that is applicable to all 870s, even the clone or nonstandard versions with 3-, 5-, or 6-round magazine tubes. However, some manufacturers label extensions by the *total* capacity they enable when installed on a standard 870 with a 4-round base magazine tube. Accounting for the space in the magazine tube and chamber, you need to subtract 5 from this total to determine the capacity of the extension itself. An "8-shot" extension would be a +3, a "10-shot" would be a +5, a "23-shot" would be a +18, and so on. Also keep in mind that these numbers almost always refer to capacity with 2.75" shells. Capacity is sometimes lower with longer 3" magnums, and will virtually always be lower with 3.5" super magnum shells. On the other hand, 2.5" or shorter shells can sometimes increase capacity.
We have found in drills, especially in darkness, that it was easier to reload the Mossberg's magazine with the weak hand. Especially when keeping the shotgun up on your shoulder. This is due to the greater ease for find the loading port by feel. That is the only advantage of the retracted shell carrier that I've noticed. Moreover, lots of training with the 870 improves one's feel enough to negate that edge.
On the other hand, I've found that with the Mossberg (specifically my friend's 590A1), the bolt and carrier can snag shell rims slightly and cause a fumble during loading, whereas the 870's carrier offers a very smooth path for shells. Also, there's a condition where a shell may seem to be in the 590's magazine, but it's not quite to the shell latch, and it's held by a piece of the bolt instead. The next time the action is cycled, the shell simply falls out the bottom of the gun, and you wind up with an empty chamber. If a shell isn't fully inserted in an 870's magazine, the shell carrier will either kick it back out of the gun right there, alerting the operator to the error, or it'll catch it between the carrier & slide assembly, where it'll still feed & chamber normally (if the 870 in question has updated flex-tab action parts). All shotguns have these little pluses & minuses, and they rarely add up to anything significant. As you said, training is essential, and that goes for any system.
Some of the silly debates comparing the 870 type to the Mossberg is centered on the supposed value of the ergonomics. Let me state that while so many like to talk about the fact that the Mossberg 500/590 safety is ambidextrous, this is an utterly meaningless factor in a combat shotgun. It is convenient feature for left handed sport shooters, but provides no advantage in a combat shotgun. How so? Because, if you train with any shotgun, the operation of the safety becomes habit. Be it a tang safety or located at the front or back of the trigger guard, it doesn't much matter. When a fight is imminent, you are going to cycle in a round and move the safety to FIRE. That's the last time you will touch it until the fight is, without any doubt, over. Until then, your trigger finger is your safety. Off the trigger unless you have a target. Trigger and muzzle discipline are your safeties in combat. I don't care where the safety is, you won't be needing it as long as lead is flying, or at least the threat of it flying, is present. Thus, to me, the tang safety is meaningless for combat shotguns in combat situations. How about the dual extractors of the Mossbergs? Again, in combat, who cares. One or two, as long as it extracts. Ditto for the easy to replace ejector. If it breaks, regardless of brand, you have an issue to overcome. How it is replaced later doesn't matter while you fight for your life, does it? What about the slide release location? Again, completely unimportant. I'm not opening the action unless I have a malfunction. The action will remain closed and shotgun hot until it no longer needs to be. Later, when the time comes to clear the shotgun, I'll unlock the action and empty the chamber. This is another thing expounded upon by those who have never been in combat or run realistic combat drills. Thus, they don't grasp what matters and what doesn't. Slide release location, like safety location, falls into the "doesn't matter" category under combat or simulated combat conditions. Comments that you have to remove your finger from the trigger are baseless, especially if you don't need to unlock the action. Some shotguns have magazine tubes that are more easily unloaded than the 870 without cycling rounds through the receiver. However, that is only of significance when a cease-fire is called on a range and you want to unload quickly. By the way, I have an 870 and an H&R Pardner Protector that was given me as a gift about 6 or 7 years ago. It is simply an 870 clone, and most 870 accessories fit it. I wasn't thrilled with the H&R for several reasons. First was its excessive weight. Second was the rough action. Third was the worthless recoil pad and last was that it does not incorporate the modern 870's cutout tab on the shell lifter. After years of languishing in my safe, I finally decided to do something with the H&R. Since the near solid polymer furniture was a big contributor to the weight issue, I purchased a Hogue rubber over-molded stock and foregrip. The stock fits perfectly, but you must remove the factory installed spacer. The foregrip was simply too tight on the action tube. This required a quarter round fine rasp. I removed a little material on the foregrip and it slid on easily. This simple furniture change provided more than a half pound of weight reduction and gave a much better purchase on the stock and foregrip. It also provided a vastly better recoil pad. Two issues resolved. I realized that the action would slicken up with use, but I elected to clean up the action components with some light stone work (breaking edges, and smoothing surfaces). It was a bit time consuming, but upon reassembly, the action was far smoother. Indeed, it is slicker than my 870, and much more so than the Mossberg. I added a see-through Picatinny rail and a Bushnell micro red dot sight (a concession to my aging eyes). I also machined a taller bead sight, which restores the relationship if I sight through the rail, under the red dot, should it fail. A side saddle, sling and swivels were added. From safe queen to a first rate combat shotgun for about $200. Runs like a Rolex.... I enjoy your videos very much. Straight forward and extremely informative. Thank you very much!
@@CoreyCJordan Damn , you’re sure trying to convince everyone that the 870 is better than the Mossberg... or that the Mossberg isn’t better than the 870. Who cares?
Great video. Very good explaining about the "great shell carrier debate", and if John Moses Browning thought that this was a good design then who can argue otherwise. Do not really need the ghost round.
I asked on one of your other posts about doing a Timney Trigger Fix to which you replied why as it is expensive. I responded I purchased one. On Friday I took my 870 to a highly experienced gunsmith to install it. He did and I heard him from the back "nope, this isn't going to work. Nope" to find out that once installed, the trigger would function with the safety on under a lot of pressure. A bust. Not sure if Timney will provide assistance but at the very least they should be concerned.
My old wingmasters don't have the flex tab and I've never had a problem with short shucking the guns, but I do see the advantages the anti jam elevators might offer some people especially non hunters as their guns see more closet time than actual use unless they are a serious target shooter and serious target shooters don't use slide actions as they only need 2 shots (most popular clay games) and the speed of an over under rules there. My favorite pump is the model 12, but all are good.
Best advice I can give: do your research, know what you're talking about, and plan how you're going to deliver it - whether it's a general outline, or a full word-for-word script. Technical polish is nice, but looking pretty is less important than taking the time to ensure that you deliver good, useful information that folks can understand.
Just discovered your channel and really enjoyed the content and professional presentation. Unfortunately I'm several years late and it looks like you stopped uploading some time ago.
My only reason for liking my Mossberg 590 over my Remington 870 is the slide / bolt release is actuated by the middle finger behind the trigger guard on the Mossberg which is very natural; and on the front of the trigger guard on the 870 forcing me to move my trigger hand around the guard to release the action (the old reach around). At the same time, this same benefit of the Mossberg over the Remington becomes a serious problem when someone (usually new shooters) puts a pistol grip on the Mossberg, forcing the gun to have to be turned upside down to release the slide because the pistol grip blocks the natural access of the middle finger to the slide release. I'm a firearms instructor and RSO (Range Safety Officer) and two people in one day recently - within 5 min of each other, had the same issue with their pistol grip Mossbergs, not knowing how to use it, nor that they had to flip the gun over to find it. The call for "my gun is jammed" comes back and I go over, turn their gun upside down, show them where the slide release is, and instruct them to remove the pistol grip and install a normal stock while the range master shakes his head in the affirmative behind me. Mossbergs and pistol grips... just don't do it. the only exception is those bird beak type pistol grips for Mossbergs.
+Charles Feyt It'll depend on your specific situation, of course, but keeping a go-to home defense shotgun with a loaded magazine & empty chamber (AKA "Condition 3") is a safe and effective strategy in many cases. With the chamber empty - especially with the action locked on a closed bolt - it is virtually impossible for rough handling or fumbling to trigger an unintended discharge. It is, however, relatively quick and easy to *intentionally* chamber a round and make a Condition 3 shotgun ready to fire - unlike one that is completely unloaded. This is usually a benefit for a HD weapon that you want to be able to deploy in a hurry; but if over-inquisitive kids or not-so-sharp friends are a concern, you should look into locking devices or locking storage that will keep the gun out of unauthorized hands while still allowing reasonably quick access and deployment.
Excellent video. As a long time 870 owner I am pretty familiar with them, but I was not aware that you could ghost load them! What is the barrel length on the 870 you have in this video?
I don't know where I read about the stamped steel parts and machinery + R&D that went into the production of the 870 as I have too many gun manufacturer history books. I did try to locate it as I may be mixing up two different articles. One thing I liked about the 12 was the takedowns with extra barrels. I think today nothing is more versatile than the 870 though. I would love to see a 500 variant with a shorter steel receiver and beefed up action bars + crossbolt safety though. A modern 31 :)
Great video thanks,, very comprehensive,,One question tough,, I see your using the AZoom snap caps,, I have had them doubl;e feed and wonder if they are not good to use any thoughts?
I never heard of ghost loading before. It might be possible to do with my Winchester 1300. Long ago I found an extension tube for it (it's a 20ga but the 12ga tube fits). Now its 8+1 capacity is plenty for me :P
Who wants a big open hole in the bottom of the receiver? Plus the carrier acts as a ramp. The 870 is legendary. It's the best pump shotgun for sure. If you're trying to bring up the carrier in that debate you already lost. I'm sure the only people with an opinion on this are people who, have retracted carrier shotgun, saw a spring loaded carrier, then fabricated "advantages" of a retracted carrier so they can justify their purchase.
Your video series on the 870 is still the gold standard.
Long live the 870! This guy is the go to for any inquiries about them.
Best series of videos on the 870 ever done! Even more impressive considering you made these videos in the early years of UA-cam instruction videos. Absolutly classic!
One of the most informative and professional videos that I have seen on the 870..I want to thank You !!!
I am a Vandal too! Please come back and make more videos. These are really of rare quality and very engaging.
Man I love your shotgun videos. So underrated. These are not ghetto unorganized ramblings from boomer. Your content is top notch, you are well spoken.
I enjoyed your video, and your commitment to providing actual, empirical information and not just opinion. I'm a fan of the 870.
Excellent video, glad you clarified the lifter issue that I had heard about! Proud Remington 870 Police owner here! 7 + 1 capacity, slug sights, 6 round side-saddle ( Had to modify the front grip) 5 round soft sock on the butt stock and looking to install a recoil reducing stock instead of the factory wood. You were very eloquent and got right to the point! Keep 'em coming!
I still own the 870 I got in 1971, and I've had 2 or 3 carrier jams while hunting with it. Each jam happened when I was loading with gloves on. I never pulled the trigger group to clear the jam, but I'd pull the barrel, then disassemble the magazine and slide the offending round out through the mag tube.
When the gun was converted for home defense, I installed a flexitab kit.
+bwhip Yeah, if you're using a vintage 870 for sporting or recreational applications, the old-style action parts work just fine, and if you fumble a reload, the jams aren't all that hard to clear. But if an old 870 is going to have lives depending on it, it really should have its action updated.
My experiences go WAY back BEFORE the flex tab became an option/solution. I had (still have) an 870 18 slug barrel w/rifle sight and a two round mag extension that I USED to carry in my squad and this was BEFORE the AR became an alternative (although a couple of the deputies did get the then brand new Armalite AR-180s.
I was comfortable with the 870 UNTIL I went to the range just to run a few rounds through it since it got a lot of visibility, but no use! Well, what a "wake up call" I had when I went to cycle the action to chamber a round!!! That magazine tube with six rounds of slugs (it wouldn't have made ANY difference in what shot load) had sat through a hot Kansas summer, locked in the electric safety rack and ALL of the rounds (plastic cased) had swollen just above the case head enough to where they wouldn't chamber!!! The extra tension from the mag spring plus the weight if the extra rounds plus the heat allowed these rounds to expand, rendering the shotgun unusable!!! It didn't take but a few seconds to go over ALL those instances where I had it at the ready, but LUCKILY not having to use it, not even to the point of cycling it. Now, in fairness, that ALSO happened to my Ithaca 37 "police" (factory 7 round mag tube) as I safely found out right after the 870 event. At that time I was an unpaid Reserve and we had to provide our own arms and I made a vow to my expecting wife that I "would be home every time"!!! I carried a small dose of paranoia and since our "beats" covered a lot of territory, we had to be self reliant since backup response time could have been measured with a calendar and not a stop watch!!! And our "communications equipment" wasn't much better than two tin cans and a string! Our frequencies were just a few step above the old Citizens Band.
So I also carried a Walther PPK .380 on me and my own Remington 700 in .308W, a backup S&W 29, and extra ammo in the trunk in addition to my Colt 1911 .45ACP (personally approved by the Sheriff himself) w/2 spare mags on my duty belt and 4 more in my back pockets. I was young and healthy then!!! And back then a "foot chase" was where the deputy took three steps followed by a loud "BANG"!!!
If I had the option then that they have these days, there would have been a AR, Mini-14, or some comparable semi (or select/full) auto rifle in that rack!!!
Do I have a shotgun at the ready in my house, yes, BUT I change out the ammo every month or so and check to make sure they are safe to keep in the gun!!!
+Big FED01 That's an important lesson. Paper or plastic shells certainly can deform if kept in a magazine for an extended period of time (this goes for both tube and box magazines, by the way), so they should be inspected regularly, and replaced if they show any signs of bulging or deformation. Repeated loading and unloading can also chew up the metal rims of shotshells, potentially leading to feeding or extraction failures. A good way to keep shotshells fresh is to shoot what you were keeping in the gun during practice sessions, and load the gun with new ammo afterward. But for those who don't practice frequently enough and/or don't want to keep buying expensive defensive shells, a weekly inspection should suffice.
This is also a reason I like to steer people away from the "extra-power" magazine springs. These are a popular upgrade because some police shotguns use them, but it's a mistake to assume that law enforcement and home defense applications are identical when it comes to equipment. In a police gun that's used frequently, the extra cycle life can be nice to have, and the increased wear & tear on the shells doesn't matter much when those shells are used soon after being loaded. But for a HD shotgun that mostly just sits around, the extra spring force will make shell deformation more likely, while adding nothing to reliability.
Isnt that an ammunition problem and not the firearms problem, though?
@@donaldmack2307 yeah kinda.. a problem all shotguns that use paper or plastic shells in a tubular mag I guess. Military used to use brass shotgun shells.
@@guaporeturns9472 I wish I had about 1000 of those brass shells ab now tbh.
@@donaldmack2307 no doubt. I would be happy with 200
This was extremely helpful, thanks! Especially the side-by-side with the internals. It's good to know what each piece does when you disassemble, clean, and reassemble them.
Very nice presentation - precise and to the point. Excellent language skills and use of vocabulary.
I've owned these guns, off and on, for years. Keep coming back to them. Never really looked at it quite the way you've presented this information. I'm 7 minutes in, already want to comment that you are very thorough, and have a great disposition about you. What a nice young man, your father has a lot to be proud of.
Excellent review, dumfounded with all the extra information you've provided. Clearly you know this model backwards and forwards, I commend you. Great Information!
dude... you are so thorough, articulate, and professional.
Subscribed.
You are a good educator young man. Thank you for your knowledge.
Great channel! You're doing an awesome job at educating about the 870. One thing I've found that has been critical to proper functioning, and that is keeping the forend rails lubricated. Times when I've had feeding and/or ejection issues, my rails were very dry and giving them a nice coat, not dripping, of a good gun oil has resolved the problems. So I'd advise anyone having problems, before you go searching for solutions, make sure your gun is cleaned and lubed and see if that doesn't provide a fix. I recently was having an issue with the shell carrier getting stuck in the up position, jamming rounds. Hadn't lubed my gun in quite a while, so I disassembled it, gave it a cleaning, put a drop of oil on the three oiling points in the trigger assembly as shown in the owner's manual, ran a patch with a little Ballistol down the barrel and wiped clean with a boresnake, sprayed Ballistol on the bolt and carrier, wiped clean, and gave the rails a decent wipe of MP7 Pro gun lube. My gun is now working nice and smooth, the shell carrier problem is gone. Regarding the dog carrier upgrade, I spoke to my gunsmith and he said if I'm not having problems, it's best to leave the original spring.
The new one might cause problems that I didn't have before.
One of the most informative and professional videos I've watched on this subject in quite some time - thanks!
I very much appreciate your knowledgeable and well scripted delivery! Reason and not opinion.
that was hands down the best video presentation on the pump shotgun I have had the privilege to see thank you great job
Great video brother. I just purchased an 870 and watching your videos giving me confidence. Thanks for you shotgun wisdom.
Good to see someone well informed sharing solid information!
Extremely well informed video man. 10/10
Its nice to finally hear a well articulated individual doing a review, you did your homework, keep up the good work. Just f.y.i im a mossy guy, but would never pass up the opportunity to run some lead through a Remington.
The Ithaca Model 37 Featherlight is absolutely beautiful! My dad has one that he bought new in 70’s, identical to your father’s except for the fore (his is smooth with finger grooves I believe). I absolutely love the Featherlight! I used to shoot a case of target load every other weekend at countless sporting clays. Nothing shoulders as cleanly, tracks as well, or reaches out as far as that irreplaceable masterpiece. I love letting friends break a few clays with it because it always put a massive smile on their faces.
I am having trouble with it releasing rounds from the magazine properly. It’ll fire the chambered shell, eject the spent round, but the mag round does a number of different things that always result in a jam/empty chamber after cycling the action. I am nervous to disassemble it because I am not confident in the inner workings and I don’t want to break/create an unsafe firearm for later use.
Want to do a T&T on the 37 Featherlight? Or maybe a deep dive into the Ithica manufacturing/history?
Also, my dad has mentioned having his trigger/safety replaced by the factory after having the shotgun fire while safe and without touching the trigger
This is one of the best vids i have seen for shotguns , i love my 870
I have fixed more than one of that problem by chucking a 12 ga brass cleaning brush in a cordless drill and cleaning/de-burring the chamber.
Great and informative video by the way. We seem to have similar tastes in scatterguns.
Very clear, informative and precise explaination as to the different types of carrier types both pros n cons. Excellent videos! I recoment these videos to any body especially those new to the firearm cummunity or to those not clear as to what/which firearm to purchase. Good work man!
Dude u are amazing u know so much about these guns!! I am 12 and last years I saved up to buy my own gun after alot of research I decided on the remington 870, was a shocker to my family because I usually don't buy wat everyone else has. I had started to regret buying it even though it is a FANTASTIC gun, but after this video I started to feel better about my choice. :)
It is nice to hear from an expert and from someone who has researched his subject. I learned a good deal today.
I like this guy. He gives good advice, and owns a lava lamp.
Great educational video. I own both a Remington Wingmaster and a Mossberg 500. I have experience with both on a professional level too. Mosberg 590A1 with the Marines and a Remington 870 Police Magnum as a police officer. I can say from experience both are devastating bang sticks. I my opinion one is not better than the other. It boils down to preference of the layout of the manual or arms. As for ghost loading. It was taught to me in the military or police so I never advocate it to anyone.
Everyone should own one 870 police magnum and a 590 a1. To me, those two shotguns are the best either manufacturer has to offer. Great video 👍👍
Dude! You make extrmely educated and well laid out vids! I'm a long time 870 owner and love it! Best pump made ever! The best auto though has to be a Benelli m4. But thanx for this brother
Awesome job! I commend you for such a concise and clear explanation of your thoughts as well as demonstrations of everything you are talking about. Great video and I can only hope you continue to create such videos in the future.
Thank you for a very helpful video. I've had my Remington 870 for years but have never used it and was looking for a video explaining how to operate. Your video was a great help
I tried ghost loading with my Remington 870 Express Tactical and it hung up the follower in the mag tube . Plus it took to much screwing around just trying to do it in the first place .
I thought by practicing it would make it easier , it didn't . And after the follower got hung up I decided ghost loading wasn't for me , not with this shotgun anyways .
Good video !
You are an encyclopedia! Well done. I learned a lot.
Brother, you’ve got the best videos out there!!! Need to post new ones :)
Great presentation, I learned a few things. You are very good at explaining things. Thank you for the video
Hey, just got an 870 today and am glad to find your videos. These are excellent training materials.
i am so sick of these 870 haters that alway perpetuate this myth. you are exactly right on this. most of these myths are strictly from mossberg fanboy that are just jealous that the 870 has a better design
You sound just like the guys you just called fanboys. Mossbergs and Remingtons are both good designs. Each has advantages. Relax bro.. nobody hates your 870
I have never seen a video done better than this.. excellent work. Please keep them coming. Def subscribing to you.
Absolutely had him reinstall the factory sear. I called Timney's technical support and they are perplexed. The asked me to send them their sear and the trigger assembly out of my 870 and they will check it.
Thank you very much for this video. This put my mind at ease with the feeding problems. Well done!
Reading the queue card above the camera gives you a wild stare, but I can put up with crazy eyes if you keep making such excellent videos. Really, really excellent work.
I can tell you put a lot of work into this video...Great job! Very informative, (subed)...I think I'm one of the, few, remaining LEO shotgunners left in the U.S., (seems the AR took over), but I love the versatility of the 870/590 and the presence it creates when the slide is racked... and I feel that the combat shotgun is becoming a "lost art". Glad to see some young enthusiasts still out there.
I normally don't comment on UA-cam but I like your style of your video
I was researching for a 870 and came across your site. Excellent video very informative. I subbed, great channel
What an amazing and informative vid! I haven't even finished a quarter of the vid, and your analysis of lightweight shotgun banter is...refreshing. As I have been training on a 870 and Ithaca 37, I'm searching the Internet for useful info on my first shotgun purchase. This vid diminished my apprehension on the 870's carrier. Thanks.
The carrier really isn't that big of a deal. It just doesn't make much of a difference once you practice with it and get used to it.
Having used both the 37 and 870, I would definitely go with the 870 for a fighting or multi-role gun. It's just a lot more versatile and robust, and easier to take apart & work on when necessary. They both make great field guns, though. I like the Ithaca's lighter weight, and the fact that it drops fired hulls right at your feet (I reload, so that's handy). The controls are laid out really nicely as well. I'd probably shoot it a lot more if it had a proper recoil pad.
The Stevens (Savage) model 350 uses the Ithaca action and has a built in recoil pad. Good review. I have the model 320 which is built on the Winchester 1300 action.
This is a great video and series. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge on 870’s/shotguns with us.
99% of the video is great. I wouldn’t have said a word about “ghost loading” though, IMO. I’ve got a feeling that definitely increased the number of jammed 870s, because a surprising amount of people will prioritize 1 extra round over positive function. This will most likely be the same group that worry about that last 100 FPS from all their ammo. I really like your videos though and I subscribed, I just don’t agree on that one thing.
I specifically say it's not great for reliability. Beyond that, if someone tries it and it causes issues, it's on them.
Ya I did some research on the magazine extensions and found the same results... Thank u for the help! Keep the videos coming they are great!!! :)
Thank you for your opinions! You speak so clearly and confidently on all of this and I learned a few things here. I have recently come into possession of ones of these (870 Wingmaster) and really didn't know much about it.
I own an 870 clone (NEF pardner pump), and I love it, but I like the option of shooting mini shells, and they don't feed well in anything but Mossberg 500's 590's and Maverick 88 12 guage shotguns and then only with the Opsol mini clip installed.
Thanks a lot! Your videos are so professionnal. Keep up the good work! I just subscribed to you channel.
Sounds like you got a great dad. Tell him often. Thanks for sharing 🍸
Well done, I have had the opportunity over the years to receive a great deal of training and given training on the use of the patrol shotgun. Your comments regarding safety, and the carrier design of these types of platforms was well thought out and easily understood. When I started in my profession we used the Smith and Wesson 3000, very similar to the Remington 870 however the Smith and Wesson had the modified shell carrier. We eventually went to the 870 after the modification in the carrier. I also used a sawed off 870 for high risk entry work for several years until these weapons were replaced with MP-5 sub guns. I find it interesting that Remington is now offering a factory, short stock and barrel shotgun which looks very similar to the guns we modified for close entry work decades ago. I have experience with multiple shotguns and action types but still have high regard for the 870 design and still recommend this platform to new and experienced shooters. I liked your mannerism, voice inflection ect. enough that I recommend that you do a video on the break down and maintenance for this platform as well as support hand reloads.
Thanks. I do have a video on take-down. A cleaning video is on the list for when I get back to making these.
Thank you so much for this great no nonsense video! Well done
Very informative and well made video. I just got an 870. Thanks for the info.
Hi ya buddy! Very nice video! I've been having problems with my Wingmaster. It's an old one with an 18" bbl. I added a magazine extension, among other things that make it tactical. I loaded with 00 buck, and put it in the safe. One nice day I took it out to run some drills. The first few rounds were hard to chamber, as the last few were smooth as butter. I thought something was causing the action bars was the problem of the hangup. I completely stripped it down, everything was in order, without any ammo, the action was great. As I inspected the 00 shells I noticed that the top was somewhat "mushroomed". Now I've learned, never leave more than 3, 4, in the tube for any length of time. I've sanded a little of the top of the shell (that was "mushroomed") and run them before I load a tube to the top! you've about the best videos on you tube, keep it up!
+Earl Wheeler Shells that are kept in the magazine for an extended period of time can eventually deform and have trouble feeding reliably. If you keep a loaded shotgun around for HD, it's recommended that you inspect the shells on a regular basis, and replace any that are starting to get out-of-shape. Use the old ammo for practice, so that you - and any other family members who may need to repel boarders - can remain familiar with how your gun & ammo behave together.
The magazine spring can also have an effect here. A lot of folks install extra-heavy magazine springs because those are supposed to be more "tactical" or something, but these "extra power" springs are often heavier than necessary for reliable feeding. Once a spring is strong enough to feed shells properly (an admittedly tricky point to nail down, since it is affected by many things that tend to vary from person to person), going heavier only makes things harder on the shells.
With regular inspection & replacement of the shells, and a spring that's appropriate for your particular situation, a defensive shotgun can safely be kept with a fully-loaded magazine.
Thank you Sync, pretty much what I was thinking. Even though this is an older model "Wingmaster" it has less than 30 rounds fired. It looks factory fresh. I've noticed that when there's about 3 shells left(after shooting a full magazine), the action is much smoother. I've also noticed that if I loosen the magazine extension about a quarter turn that it runs much smoother. I used the spring that came with the extension tube. Do you think I could cut about 1/2"- 3/4" off the spring could help. Btw, I'm not going to blame you if doing so doesn't work. ;-)
+Earl Wheeler What extension are you using?
It's heavy duty steel. Well made. Can't remember the brand. Are you thinking about the internal dimensions? Something I can check with my calipers.
+Earl Wheeler It really depends on the brand & capacity. Some extensions like those from S&J hardware come with very long springs so that the user can trim them to the length/stiffness that works best for them; but some folks don't realize this, and just stuff the entire thing in without cutting it at all. Others, like the Remington +2, share springs with longer extensions (the Remington +3 in this case) to simplify things, so you can afford to trim the springs for the smaller extensions a little if they're stiffer than you need. On the other hand, other extensions may have springs that are already sized specifically for that setup, so trimming can lead to unreliable function. As an extreme example, the Vang Comp +2 has a very weak spring that has trouble feeding correctly unmodified, so trimming it even shorter would be a very bad idea.
Also I'm glad you said not to rely on ghost loading for home defense. It's great for the range, but too many people rely on it for the wrong reasons.
Huh! I was trying to figure out the purpose of that lifter notch last week. It's too obvious to just 'be there' without any reason but for the life of me I couldn't figure out what it was supposed to do.
Now I know. Thanks!
I wish you did all instructional videos. You were meant for it!
That’s such sweet compliment. I completely agree, he’s great.
Thanks! Just bought a Remington 870. I will never ghost-load it for any reason whatsoever.
I recently bought some dummy shells and decided to try it with my 870 the other evening before watching this video. Maybe it's just because they don't weigh as much as a live round, but it would cause a jam condition where the extracted shell did not want to eject. Instead, it hung up in the receiver with the ghost loaded dummy round pushing up against it. My conclusion on it was that the 1 extra round was not worth the chance of a malfunction if reliability of the gun was most important. Pretty much an unnecessary trick.
@@J.E.Taylor Yeah, ghost-loading is a pretty hack way to try to up the capacity of an 870. Installing a magazine extension is a much better way to boost capacity.
Very informative, good video. I am not a big fan of ghost loading but I am glad you prefaced that in the video that you probably shouldn't do it if you have to depend on the gun 100 percent.
Extremely well done video, and I love your series.
I cleaned and reassembled a 20 ga lightweight 870. Now the shell carrier doesn't drop back down, causing the next shell from the magazine to be ejected onto the ground.
I need HELP!! Very well done video,sir!
You talk very clear and concise, give great information and cutting out all the "uhh's" most people say. You do great and earned a sub from me! 🤗
Been gathering ideas to update an old wingmaster into something more appropriate for home and/or camp.
Thank you so much for the videos and forum posts--truly a wealth of information.
If you could spare a moment, I'm interested in your opinion on reliability improvements I could make for defensive purposes.
I've sourced a modern flexitab breech assembly, slide, and carrier assembly; these strike me as the most meaningful updates and do much in the way of mitigating operator error.
Are there any other updates you would consider essential? Updated forend tube assembly or the police variant upgrades to various springs? None of the other updates I'm aware of seem particularly urgent or significant to me, but I'm ready to be wrong on that.
In any case, thank you for your time and consideration!
Yeah, flex-tab upgrade for sure. A new fore-end tube assembly is an optional fourth item in the flex-tab update. It's not essential, but the new-style action bars will engage a little more solidly with the new-style slide assembly, and the camming surfaces that engage the shell latches are longer and more gradually-angled, so the action runs smoother.
Remington also beefed-up the shell latches at some point. The new-style ones are a little stiffer and heavier-built to stand up better to hard use. I forget what year they switched, but the two versions are easy to tell apart. Old-style have two staking recesses per latch, new-style ones have six. A little bit of a pain to change though, since it takes some special tools to stake shell latches into the receiver. If you have old-style ones and they're in good shape, you probably don't need to worry about it.
I also like several of the aftermarket magazine followers that are out there. Not because the factory followers are flimsy or unreliable (though some of the really old steel followers can cause minor issues in certain circumstances), but because the aftermarket upgrades add some safety features through high-visibility colors and features that let you easily feel when the magazine is loaded or empty by touch alone. My favorites are the ones from S&J Hardware.
Police springs are over-rated in my opinion. They do have some benefits, but they're not simply universally better just because they're used in LE models, as a lot of the internet seems to think. They have trade-offs, which is why Remington didn't just put them in everything.
The Police magazine spring (this only applies to non-extended 4-round magazines by the way) is longer and pushes shells with more force. This can improve feeding reliability if you're shooting hard-kicking shells and running the gun really (and I mean REALLY) fast. It also obviously has more room to wear out before becoming too weak to work properly, which can be a nice bit of extra insurance for a P.D. shotgun that may not see the maintenance it really ought to, but still needs to be relied upon when things go bad. The downside is that the longer, stiffer spring makes it easier to fumble a reload if your technique isn't great, and it takes up more space in the tube and potentially reduces capacity with some shells. Also, the extra force is harder on shells during feeding, or even when they're just sitting in the magazine. In a hard-use gun that gets loaded, shot, and then loaded again, this isn't a big deal. For home defense or other civilian roles, the same shells are likely to be left in the tube for longer periods of time, and/or loaded and unloaded multiple times before actually being fired. Battered shell rims or deformed bodies can cause all manner of malfunctions.
The heavier carrier dog follower spring in the Police 870s is kind of a similar thing. Stiffer spring, lasts longer if the gun is neglected, etc. Downside is it makes the action stiffer to cycle since there's more friction and resistance in the carrier mechanism. And again, easier to mess up a reload since it takes significantly more force to push the carrier up and out of the way. I tried it, didn't like it, and went back to the standard spring. I don't even know how many thousands of rounds have been through my 870, but I've never had an issue with the carrier function.
The Police trigger spring just makes the trigger pull heavier. That's it. It's not more durable, or better-made, or more reliable, or anything like that. It's just to give you a heavy trigger for situations where a little less accuracy is worth decreasing the likelihood of an unintentional discharge.
@@SynchronizorVideos
I'll keep an eye out for a decent deal on the upgraded action bars. Would you say the shooter experiences a tighter feeling lockup from this upgrade?
Other than that, all I've got lined up is the Hogue 12 inch stock and forend. Ugly as sin like everything they make, but many shooters claim to enjoy the shorter LOP for applications outside of hunting/sporting.
The idea of a light interests me, but all the good ones seem to be pricey!
Thank you so much for the response brotha--your content has saved me hours of headache!
@@SynchronizorVideos
was able to review a bunch of the blog reviews on 870 accoutrements; ended up with the Hogue 12 inch stock, a hi-viz snap-on front sight, and Streamlight forend with an integrated light.
I think the Streamlight is an exciting addition to the 870 catalog. Surfire was the only game in town for wayyy too long. At $100-$150, this is a wildly competitive product that oughta take lots of market share from its dance partner. Would love to see ya'll review one, if such a review isn't already in the works!
Also, after reading your review, I went for the Wilson Combat +2 extension.
This is already a lot more than I've ever put on a vanilla firearm, so I'm drawing the line here--build complete!
It was a really fun project. Been shooting 870s for years and I still learned a lot through the channel and blog--particularly regarding aftermarket products. Thanks again brotha!
@@petrie1230 Nah, action bars aren't going to change the lockup unless something's really out of whack. The bolt locks directly to the barrel anyway.
Loved this video. I followed your advice and bought an extension. I just installed it and it is great. It was called a 10 round extension but in reality it adds 5 rounds which gives me 9 + 1. OK that's 10 rounds but it does not add 10 as the name implies. Corrected a small typo.
The standard (more or less) notation for extensions is to refer to them by the additional capacity they provide; +3, +5, +18, etc. This is a very straightforward notation that is applicable to all 870s, even the clone or nonstandard versions with 3-, 5-, or 6-round magazine tubes.
However, some manufacturers label extensions by the *total* capacity they enable when installed on a standard 870 with a 4-round base magazine tube. Accounting for the space in the magazine tube and chamber, you need to subtract 5 from this total to determine the capacity of the extension itself. An "8-shot" extension would be a +3, a "10-shot" would be a +5, a "23-shot" would be a +18, and so on.
Also keep in mind that these numbers almost always refer to capacity with 2.75" shells. Capacity is sometimes lower with longer 3" magnums, and will virtually always be lower with 3.5" super magnum shells. On the other hand, 2.5" or shorter shells can sometimes increase capacity.
Best reviewer / instructor on you tube , great video
We have found in drills, especially in darkness, that it was easier to reload the Mossberg's magazine with the weak hand. Especially when keeping the shotgun up on your shoulder. This is due to the greater ease for find the loading port by feel. That is the only advantage of the retracted shell carrier that I've noticed. Moreover, lots of training with the 870 improves one's feel enough to negate that edge.
On the other hand, I've found that with the Mossberg
(specifically my friend's 590A1), the bolt and carrier can snag shell rims slightly and cause a fumble during loading, whereas the 870's carrier offers a very smooth path for shells. Also, there's a condition where a shell may seem to be in the 590's magazine, but it's not quite to the shell latch, and it's held by a piece of the bolt instead. The next time the action is cycled, the shell simply falls out the bottom of the gun, and you wind up with an empty chamber. If a shell isn't fully inserted in an 870's magazine, the shell carrier will either kick it back out of the gun right there, alerting the operator to the error, or it'll catch it between the carrier & slide assembly, where it'll still feed & chamber normally (if the 870 in question has updated flex-tab action parts).
All shotguns have these little pluses & minuses, and they rarely add up to anything significant. As you said, training is essential, and that goes for any system.
Some of the silly debates comparing the 870 type to the Mossberg is centered on the supposed value of the ergonomics. Let me state that while so many like to talk about the fact that the Mossberg 500/590 safety is ambidextrous, this is an utterly meaningless factor in a combat shotgun. It is convenient feature for left handed sport shooters, but provides no advantage in a combat shotgun. How so?
Because, if you train with any shotgun, the operation of the safety becomes habit. Be it a tang safety or located at the front or back of the trigger guard, it doesn't much matter. When a fight is imminent, you are going to cycle in a round and move the safety to FIRE. That's the last time you will touch it until the fight is, without any doubt, over. Until then, your trigger finger is your safety. Off the trigger unless you have a target. Trigger and muzzle discipline are your safeties in combat. I don't care where the safety is, you won't be needing it as long as lead is flying, or at least the threat of it flying, is present.
Thus, to me, the tang safety is meaningless for combat shotguns in combat situations.
How about the dual extractors of the Mossbergs? Again, in combat, who cares. One or two, as long as it extracts. Ditto for the easy to replace ejector. If it breaks, regardless of brand, you have an issue to overcome. How it is replaced later doesn't matter while you fight for your life, does it?
What about the slide release location? Again, completely unimportant. I'm not opening the action unless I have a malfunction. The action will remain closed and shotgun hot until it no longer needs to be. Later, when the time comes to clear the shotgun, I'll unlock the action and empty the chamber. This is another thing expounded upon by those who have never been in combat or run realistic combat drills. Thus, they don't grasp what matters and what doesn't. Slide release location, like safety location, falls into the "doesn't matter" category under combat or simulated combat conditions. Comments that you have to remove your finger from the trigger are baseless, especially if you don't need to unlock the action.
Some shotguns have magazine tubes that are more easily unloaded than the 870 without cycling rounds through the receiver. However, that is only of significance when a cease-fire is called on a range and you want to unload quickly.
By the way, I have an 870 and an H&R Pardner Protector that was given me as a gift about 6 or 7 years ago. It is simply an 870 clone, and most 870 accessories fit it. I wasn't thrilled with the H&R for several reasons. First was its excessive weight. Second was the rough action. Third was the worthless recoil pad and last was that it does not incorporate the modern 870's cutout tab on the shell lifter. After years of languishing in my safe, I finally decided to do something with the H&R. Since the near solid polymer furniture was a big contributor to the weight issue, I purchased a Hogue rubber over-molded stock and foregrip. The stock fits perfectly, but you must remove the factory installed spacer. The foregrip was simply too tight on the action tube. This required a quarter round fine rasp. I removed a little material on the foregrip and it slid on easily. This simple furniture change provided more than a half pound of weight reduction and gave a much better purchase on the stock and foregrip. It also provided a vastly better recoil pad. Two issues resolved. I realized that the action would slicken up with use, but I elected to clean up the action components with some light stone work (breaking edges, and smoothing surfaces). It was a bit time consuming, but upon reassembly, the action was far smoother. Indeed, it is slicker than my 870, and much more so than the Mossberg. I added a see-through Picatinny rail and a Bushnell micro red dot sight (a concession to my aging eyes). I also machined a taller bead sight, which restores the relationship if I sight through the rail, under the red dot, should it fail. A side saddle, sling and swivels were added. From safe queen to a first rate combat shotgun for about $200. Runs like a Rolex....
I enjoy your videos very much. Straight forward and extremely informative. Thank you very much!
@@CoreyCJordan Damn , you’re sure trying to convince everyone that the 870 is better than the Mossberg... or that the Mossberg isn’t better than the 870. Who cares?
Great video. Very good explaining about the "great shell carrier debate", and if John Moses Browning thought that this was a good design then who can argue otherwise. Do not really need the ghost round.
I asked on one of your other posts about doing a Timney Trigger Fix to which you replied why as it is expensive. I responded I purchased one. On Friday I took my 870 to a highly experienced gunsmith to install it. He did and I heard him from the back "nope, this isn't going to work. Nope" to find out that once installed, the trigger would function with the safety on under a lot of pressure. A bust. Not sure if Timney will provide assistance but at the very least they should be concerned.
My old wingmasters don't have the flex tab and I've never had a problem with short shucking the guns, but I do see the advantages the anti jam elevators might offer some people especially non hunters as their guns see more closet time than actual use unless they are a serious target shooter and serious target shooters don't use slide actions as they only need 2 shots (most popular clay games) and the speed of an over under rules there. My favorite pump is the model 12, but all are good.
Thanks for this - Much appreciated!
Wow, what a great, professional video. Thank you
Oh man your 870 pretty beat up I just got mine yesterday and I'm scared to take it hunting it's so sexy and everything is tight 870!
Thanks for the video. Got lot of new info from my gun´s functions.
Really good video, very personal. You should do a video on how to do a video.
Best advice I can give: do your research, know what you're talking about, and plan how you're going to deliver it - whether it's a general outline, or a full word-for-word script. Technical polish is nice, but looking pretty is less important than taking the time to ensure that you deliver good, useful information that folks can understand.
Just discovered your channel and really enjoyed the content and professional presentation. Unfortunately I'm several years late and it looks like you stopped uploading some time ago.
I love my 870 Express; it never fails to function exactly as intended.
My only reason for liking my Mossberg 590 over my Remington 870 is the slide / bolt release is actuated by the middle finger behind the trigger guard on the Mossberg which is very natural; and on the front of the trigger guard on the 870 forcing me to move my trigger hand around the guard to release the action (the old reach around). At the same time, this same benefit of the Mossberg over the Remington becomes a serious problem when someone (usually new shooters) puts a pistol grip on the Mossberg, forcing the gun to have to be turned upside down to release the slide because the pistol grip blocks the natural access of the middle finger to the slide release. I'm a firearms instructor and RSO (Range Safety Officer) and two people in one day recently - within 5 min of each other, had the same issue with their pistol grip Mossbergs, not knowing how to use it, nor that they had to flip the gun over to find it. The call for "my gun is jammed" comes back and I go over, turn their gun upside down, show them where the slide release is, and instruct them to remove the pistol grip and install a normal stock while the range master shakes his head in the affirmative behind me. Mossbergs and pistol grips... just don't do it. the only exception is those bird beak type pistol grips for Mossbergs.
although it does work perfect for lefty shooters
I als prefer the tang safety of my Mossbergs over my Remingtons. I’m a lefty
+Charles Feyt It'll depend on your specific situation, of course, but keeping a go-to home defense shotgun with a loaded magazine & empty chamber (AKA "Condition 3") is a safe and effective strategy in many cases. With the chamber empty - especially with the action locked on a closed bolt - it is virtually impossible for rough handling or fumbling to trigger an unintended discharge.
It is, however, relatively quick and easy to *intentionally* chamber a round and make a Condition 3 shotgun ready to fire - unlike one that is completely unloaded. This is usually a benefit for a HD weapon that you want to be able to deploy in a hurry; but if over-inquisitive kids or not-so-sharp friends are a concern, you should look into locking devices or locking storage that will keep the gun out of unauthorized hands while still allowing reasonably quick access and deployment.
VERY INFORMATIVE,RESPONSIBLE VIDEO.EXCELLENT INFO!
NICE SHOTGUNS BTW.
Excellent! -- very informative. Thanks for making and posting this video.
GREAT RELIANT VIDEO IVE COME ACROSS IN A WHILE,T.Y.!
Excellent video. As a long time 870 owner I am pretty familiar with them, but I was not aware that you could ghost load them! What is the barrel length on the 870 you have in this video?
I put my 18.5" riot barrel on the gun for this video to keep it short and easy to handle.
I don't know where I read about the stamped steel parts and machinery + R&D that went into the production of the 870 as I have too many gun manufacturer history books. I did try to locate it as I may be mixing up two different articles. One thing I liked about the 12 was the takedowns with extra barrels. I think today nothing is more versatile than the 870 though. I would love to see a 500 variant with a shorter steel receiver and beefed up action bars + crossbolt safety though. A modern 31 :)
Great video thanks,, very comprehensive,,One question tough,, I see your using the AZoom snap caps,, I have had them doubl;e feed and wonder if they are not good to use any thoughts?
Great Presentation !!!
Fantastic video sir! Thank you!
Fantastic informational video.
love the info in this. nice work man.
Thank you very much. I'm going to find out exactly what extention I have, reply to let you know what you think.
Amazing video, great job done. Thanks!
I never heard of ghost loading before. It might be possible to do with my Winchester 1300. Long ago I found an extension tube for it (it's a 20ga but the 12ga tube fits). Now its 8+1 capacity is plenty for me :P
Who wants a big open hole in the bottom of the receiver? Plus the carrier acts as a ramp. The 870 is legendary. It's the best pump shotgun for sure. If you're trying to bring up the carrier in that debate you already lost. I'm sure the only people with an opinion on this are people who, have retracted carrier shotgun, saw a spring loaded carrier, then fabricated "advantages" of a retracted carrier so they can justify their purchase.
Very good video(s). Very informative. Thank you!