I like that from the get go you're literally smashing the statues of the one they call "mother" whilst using her as a save. You're already an iconoclast.
Also interesting how when you save at the Isi town, the statue is their mother, father and child motif, but Mother is underneath both statues on that screen, looking more menacing.
i'm at the endgame for Iconoclasts and have found myself extending the game... running around trying to 100% everything just to keep the feeling going. I played the metroids, the castlevanias.. even owlboy which is fantastic. but there's something about this game that not only hits just the right notes of nostalgia, but does an incredible job at building a world and a story. even the small details like humanizing the one concern soldiers (a bonus quest shows the soldiers were organizing a game night but it's no longer happening because the organizer died) give this little pixel game a very similar emotional pull as the epic Breath of the Wild. Brilliant takeaway and explainer. Thanks for the video!
I downloaded this like 5 years ago, got right up to endgame, and did the same thing... then put it down and never went back. Forgot all about it. Last night, i found it again while going through my library. Fired up that old save and accidentally went to the final boss (i had a feeling though, as that final stretch of travel looked like Super Metroid's), and beat it. I'm going through the whole game again to try and get 100%, but while i got the basic gist of the story's hamfisted ideological setting, it feels a bit different in 2024. For one, the "One Concern" seems pretty obviously to be "Single Issue," as in voters that tend to skew heavily and fanatically religious. And it's even more interesting that their behavior and beliefs mirror American conservatives, who honestly think nothing of global warming or environmental regulations, coming from a place where they feel "God put this all here for us to _use,_ and when catastrophe comes, it was his will anyway. We'll be spared for our faith." On the other hand, while trying in a slight way to "both sides" things, Mina is presented almost as a bleeding heart "liberal" in the usual way that's demonized by the right of various capitalist countries, straight down to short-sighted violence as her motivating attitude. All in all, while silly, it's neat that a developer decided to even approach such philosophies and depictions in a video game.
As Iconoclasts is basically one of my favorite games ever, I am so glad your review did it justice. I have only ever heard people say good things about this game, and yet so few people I know have actually PLAYED it, long after I burned through my hype for this masterpiece. More people need to know about it. XD
any reccs for games of the same "quality" I'm not necessarily looking for platformer games or story games, I think my love for iconoclasts extended from the fact that it's a "good game" it didn't feel lackluster in any aspect and i was always satisfied playing it is that jst too high a bar or? I havent really played too many games so idk
@@ghetoknight7801 If I had to pick other games I enjoyed as much as Iconoclasts, I would go with Bug Fables: The Everlasting Sapling, which is heavily inspired by the first two Paper Mario games. That's my first instinctive answer.
Imagine the news though, like after Robin kills the starworm "Breaking News! Local mechanic becomes so amgry she kills our god! We asked her for her comments qnd she told us "Normally, I would have just let us all die. Unfortunately, he had to talk shit on a Wednesday of all days. I hate Wednesdays" what a story!"
To quote Micheal Pruski from the Sonic Adventure video comment section, "I'm not sure where you just took me but that was a journey nonetheless". When I see another one of your Videos post I always like to set time aside, to watch without distraction. Your art deserves nothing less. You don't just give us a review, you give us a quick window into you. And to me, that's one hell of a journey to be on, and I'm happy as hell to be part of it.
I really did like the video, its always nice to see someone's perspective on Iconoclasts. That said, I felt you were pitching this game as something incredibly young that was inspired by a sea of indie releases from the last decade, when really, this game had been in development since the year 2010. It is even older than that, if you consider the prototype Ivory Springs from 2007. I think this game definitely takes a lot from Super Metroid, Metroid Fusion, a little bit of Symphony of the Night, and I can even believe it was inspired by Cave Story. However, anything beyond that... I'm not so sure. Konjak has been a powerful force in the indie game scene for a long time. Chalk, Noitu Love 2, which are both pre-2010, are incredible examples of solid game design. Of course, I'm not trying to shame the idea that being inspired by things is bad, and in a way, every piece of media is undeniably inspired by what came before it, but I also think Konjak deserves a little more credit. Hell, I'm pretty sure him and Simon Andersen of Owlboy fame are super close friends that grew up together, based on their Twitter interactions. I'd see this less as a child of Owlboy, but rather Owlboy's sibling. Sorry if this came off as confrontational at all, not my intention. I just felt like pointing this out. I enjoyed your review a ton, and I wish more people would give this game a chance. It really is something special. Also, the scripting and video editing was superb. Thank you for the content. Hoping you get more viewers throughout the rest of the year.
No man that's a great point, it was only after writing most of the video that I learned how long Iconoclasts was in development - you're right on the money that many, if not most of the games I listed as tributes more likely just shared some ancestral DNA. I didn't do much re-writing on that section of the video but decided to keep it as more of an "Iconoclasts has a lot in common with these games" rather than "Iconoclasts borrows much from these games." In retrospect, properly editing this section to clarify this would not have taken much work outside of a little re-recording. But hey, at least I was consistent with my Super Metroid metaphor! Thanks for the watch and the meaningful comment, it always means a lot.
I love this game. It definitely owes to the dozens of Metroidvanias that came before but it masterfully comes together as its own thing. Story-wise it reminds me so much more of SNES/PSX era RPGs though. Specifically Xenogears: The story revolving around a religious order that controls the world, with various factions fighting against it or for it, the main character facing "God" in the end, and the reveal that the God was some sort of extra-terrestrial being that has almost nothing to do with the conflict the humans have been engaged with for centuries... It's all very 90's Squaresoft. I described Iconoclasts to my friends as the greatest SNES game ever made that wasn't for the SNES.
9:38 Welcome. Welcome to City 17. You have chosen, or _been_ chosen to relocate to one of our finest remaining urban centers. I thought so much of City 17 that i elected to establish my administration here, in the citadel so thoughtfully provided by our benefactors.
Really well done! I just finished Iconoclasts- loved it!- and I've been meditating on its themes and such since. You made a lot of cogent points- I especially liked the way you articulated how the characters existed before the player interacts with them and the way that existence continues with characters off screen. And I didn't even see past the video game facade to notice that Robin is making a map- one of three people doing it illegally! Overall, great stuff, well earned follow, and I'm looking forward to more 😁
Hot darn that wasn't bad at all! I appreciated my secret cameo and I always love it when Karl makes an appearance. I love to get to see things from your perspective in these and I love that you make it accessible even to people who aren't really gamers.
Video is 2 years old when I've finally found it and I've watched a whole playthrough of iconoclasts and loved the story and characters but could never verbalize why it resonated so much with me until I found this video!
I thought giant bird is that all the things you pointed out, but also be a undefeatable thing for Robin since it's a bird, mechanic (like Robin herself), but greater. however, with the help of Mina(she conditionally joins the final fight against the bird) and the all the iconoclasm has been done till the moment, which revealed that starworm is just a machine, which can be broken or malfunction sometimes. which made it pefrorm the final blow for the bird.
I think it's interesting that after listing off all the inspiration's for Iconoclasts' gameplay you found the ending to throw you for a real loop, because I found it extremely reminiscent of Chrono Trigger's ending. Early on in Chrono Trigger, your party time travels to the future in 2300 AD, when the planet is basically dead. The gang finds out that the state of the world in the future was caused by something called Lavos. They resolve to use their ability to time travel to prevent this, through any means necessary, but you don't really have any idea of what Lavos is besides that it killed the earth. So the party uses their time travel to visit various points in history to figure out what Lavos is and how to stop it. At the end of the game, it is revealed that Lavos is an alien life form using the earth's life to develop into an adult version of its species, as basically a parasite. It gives the impression that despite the size of your journey across space and time, there are things going on in the universe that are much larger than you, just like Iconoclasts' Starworm. Chrono Trigger even features a society that worships Lavos and uses it as an energy source, until Lavos eventually destroys them. Just in general I thought this game's story structure was far more similar to a JRPG than to its metroidvania bretheren, JRPGs have loved to build a world that you care for before tearing it away in a midgame plot twist for forever. In fact, that's why I saw it through to the end. My first time playing Iconoclasts, I dropped it a couple hours in. I'm not entirely sure why. But a few years later, I was watching Tim Rogers' Kotaku review of Dragon Quest XI, where he points out that Dragon Quest loves to show you things that you can't do, so that you remember them when you get something that will let you do them. I thought to myself, "Hey, that sounds a lot like Metroid". I mused about the idea of a Metroidvania with a more JRPG-esque story structure, until I remembered Iconoclasts being kinda like that, and resolved to see it through. I echo the sentiment of another commenter that Iconoclasts doesn't really feel like a Metroidvania. While it looks like a Metroidvania and sounds like a Metroidvania, I think it's built like something completely different, and I think that's really neat.
The biggest compliment I can come up with is that you somehow managed to achieve the same miracle as the game itself: not one word too much, not one too little. :) (PS: my interpretation about the bird person and some related events is a little different, or extended i should say, but I'll keep it to myself so that others may unveil the secrets on their own)
Thank you for the response! I'm curious what your take on the bird person was, though - I've heard others say that it's a surreal gag more than an attempt at a serious plot point, but if it's not either of those I'd love to hear.
@@drewlov red robin fighting the blue jay , over white stuff in the stars? MERI-... it does seem more gag like to me , but i don't understand anything about this game unlike you....
@@iamLI3 bro a robin fighting a blue jay? I literally had never made that connection until you said it! Anyways, the ending can definitely be both, or either one. Something funny can still be meaningful in other ways, too. It IS funny! But it's also true that the Starworm had no connections with the people of the planet, and that they blindly worshipped something that was completely oblivious to them.
The major message I received from it was "Hey, your god is literally just A GUY." and it's a message about blind faith and its repercussions. But admittedly, the big bad bird boy themselves is actually a fairly perfect parallel for Robin herself, as they don't speak a word, they fight with mechanic's tools, and, well, the entire bird thematic.
Jesus, this video is great. You gave me some food for thought in an entertaining way by talking about a game I didn't even have any interest in before. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw your subscriber count is so low. Normally people would say some phrase like "I know that if you persevere your effort will be rewarded and your channel will be as big as you deserve", and frankly, I can't pretend that it will. Sometimes life just isnt that fair. But I do know that your voice is worthwhile, so for my part, you've got a new subscriber.
Great stuff! I definitely struggled a bit figuring out what to praise in this game that goes above and beyond stuff that has existed before (though, I must admit, I am far less versed in platformers than you are). I think you got it 100% right that it's the impact of the story that makes it worth taking a ride in the otherwise pretty standard vehicle of a game. Like taking a Honda Civic to Grand Canyon or something, idk.
Great video about a great game. It is one of the most similar games I’ve played to Cave Story, which is another amazing game. Great job, I hope this reaches a larger audience.
this is a VERY good video and too few people talk about iconoclasts :( it's got some pacing and game design issues for sure but the character arcs and world are so incredibly interesting. if I could change one thing about the game, I would make agent black the final boss - the actual final boss is more connected to the worldbuilding and overall story, but it has no emotional connection for the players, whereas agent black's character arc is EXTREMELY emotional and built up over the whole game. hers is the story that remains in my mind most strongly, years after playing for the first time. one minor note - the quote from charles manson is one of TWO references to the real world, the other one being the flags of our earth countries painted on the side of the isi ark in the one concern facility!! this implies, maybe, that the isi arks were originally used to transport humans from earth to this new terraformed planet??
Good catch on all that! Did you notice I said that "it's world building without any prior framework" while using the Isi ark clip? ;) While I agree the Agent Black fight has more going for it than most other games have in their entire package, I think its placement in the story is kind of... Optimal? It acts as THE turning point, more so than any other event in the game. When you launch the rocket, everything changes. Black gets the privilege of acting as the final barrier between you and (literally) the great unknown.
I just started playing this again yesterday (after a 5 year hiatus), and one thing I failed to notice was at the top of the Tower in the Shockwood... there are three pictures in the upper four rooms: the Taj Mahal, Great Wall of China, and Statue of Liberty/Manhattan.
I am indeed someone who can google things, and I find it kind of funny that I played through this entire game's story and realized "I should probably know what the title means" and went to check and got a DIFFERENT definition. Mine was basically about people rejecting authority figures, which I took as totally fitting too since [BIG SPOILERS] almost all of Robin's crew reject a personal authority figure beyond just Mother. Robin and her grandfather, who keeps appearing in flashbacks saying "Please god don't become a mechanic" to which Robin responds "no :)". Mina and her parents, Royal and Mother (eventually), but he still falls back on the old ways when he meets Him. Only Elro seems to not fit the mold, constantly parroting their uncle's words to Robin, just to be ignored all the same. I guess I just wanted to make this comment because I had no idea that the religious angle was even something that this game was doing until I watched this video that's been sitting in my Watch Later for years, waiting for me to feel ready to step back into this world, and I think it's really impressive storytelling that it managed to incorporate 2 (at least) definitions of "Iconoclast" into the game.
I'd be interested in seeing the effect this game's story would have on religious people. Of course there'd be plenty who'd discard it but for those not too ingrained in dogma I'm curious about what lines of thought it would spark. I'd honestly put this game on a list of Must Play for everyone just to see what it could rattle loose.
I loved my time with this game, It scratched a gaming itch that hadn't been touched since I played Gaia and Terrenigma on the snes. It's that weird feeling the game leaves in my gut that I have a hard time putting my finger on and that's a good thing. Great video BTW.
amazing video i knew when i beat this game this was going to be a multiyear project for the internet to figure out what this game was actually about i also literally came up with my own head canon for the ending of this game and what the game was making a point about lol....... btw my fav music from the game is indoctrination , i've listened to and sign that one the most it's so smooth.....
for like the entire first third of the video i wanted to scream at the vid to talk about the story and world and im glad i waited for that payoff. i did kinda think youd talk more about the specifics of the world and characters, this vid was still rly good
I disagree that the game picks up later. The dialogue is real af through and through, and the starting events are just as heavy as the later parts. I found the immediate world building struck too close to home ((lack of) right to repair, and layers of misinformation conspiracy). EDIT: This is coming from a Muslim who hated every other ham-fisted atheist missionary media like NieR Automata.
? but nier is a post-human world that still has religion in it?.... and yeah the dialogue did have me cringing most of the time lol , i said man if i had a nickle for every time a character yelled and then said sorry , i would be a very rich man lol....
The thing is it doesn't need to be about God or its absence to present believable, strange, evocative or lovable characters. That's why NieR and Automata are favorites of mine. If you're too hung up on religion's presence or some assumed schedule for the end times, you're automatically going to have a huge issue suspending your disbelief and enjoying a fantasy from an entirely alien method of thought. I _like_ seeing how strange people's dreams and imaginations can be, so I get happy when I see stuff like that. Also, keep in mind a lot of Japanese made stuff likes using Abrahamic iconography and passages, but are not actually atheist. The "national religion" is Shinto, which does not function at _all_ like an Abrahamic religion, for obvious reasons. There is no "promised land," an eternity of happiness for the faithful or anything. Part of why I dropped out of Christianity pretty early in life and have generally not had a good opinion of the Abrahamic religions is because they've been so easily used to manipulated huge swaths of people into continental war and complacency by dangling a big "trust me bro" reward in front of practitioners. I don't like it being used by born-again and Evangelical christians to justify oppression and claim special status, just as I don't like how Islam or Judaism do it. And don't get me started on the Hindu _caste._ 😅
13:45 - I wouldn't say that completely. Describe the premise to someone and it would sound like a cross between His Dark Materials and Dune. With a bit of 1984 thrown in.
Also, she went from "sinfull mechanic without much to her name" to "I dismantled an entire religious regime, fought and won against it's best super-soldiers and even killed their god" in less than a full day
16:00 What is the music in the background. I know it somewhere Edit: thank god for you stating which one it was at the end. In my case octopath traveler
I liked the game for the most part and would recommend it but I didn't like the excessive uninteresting and confusing dialogue and I didn't like the constant goal post moving. It felt like the game was going to end on a handful of occasions and didn't which just made me feel like I wanted it to be over as the game turned into a Boss fest, And it felt like a bit of a chore especially in the last 10% where the checkpoints become more punishing. I loved every bit of the game up until leaving the tower yet I would still recommend it to anybody to play it's got everything. The art the music, platforming, combat and puzzle elements are all very enjoyable for 90% of the game in my personal experience. 8/10
Did you catch the ThorHighHeels-type transitions, some Action Button scripting, a little NeverKnowsBest here and there? (Yes, the references are intentional, good eye!)
@@drewlov I thought I caught Matthewmatosis in there to be honest lol. But yeah, the Tim Rogers part in particular made me think that. Don't know Thor though!
Well, for me Iconoclasts is as much "Metroid" or "Metroidvania" as Super Mario World was a Metroidvania. In short, it isn't one. It is a super linear game, with forks so you can get secrets. 5:55 Indeed, I'd rather play Super Metroid then Iconoclasts.
I think this game tried to be way too phylosophical. i couldnt handle and it bored me a little bit. I liked Hollow Knight lore alot more and it is more insteresting imo. But i like iconoclast maybe i will give chance to keep understanding the game story.
I appreciated the artwork and music, and 100%'d it to ensure I was giving a fair shake... but can't help but agree with all the Steam reviews on just how bad this story is. I feel like you're really overselling it here, when what players will actually experience is a bunch of melodramatic non-specific tantrums by a cast of angsty teenagers who need to blow up on one another at rather random times. I can't tell whether I disagree with any of the philosophies presented because I genuinely can't tell what they are. You praise it for dropping us into these pre-existing settings and characters, when that seems to just be the fluke of somebody working on the same project for eight years with no editor providing an outside perspective. He really could've used the feedback here and there of "Hang on... every character is unlikeable and I have no idea what's happening."
@@_WhiteMage it's intentional. All of it, even if a bit hamfisted on its face, it's more about the characters, as most great fiction is. Robin is the only person left at the end of the world who is positive. Hope is gone from everyone, replaced with hopes that a fantasy they've been brainwashed into believing mystically comes true, having either taken part in the destruction of their homes and society, or sat and never fought back. I'm on playthrough 2 after 5 years, and this time, I've been going around the world finding NPCs to talk to who may have moved, or finishing sidequests I never completed back in 2019. It's interesting how there is specifically no true happy ending for anyone involving words. The man who lost his wife in a Penance of Settlement 17? He was in misery on the upper floor of his neighbor's house, having lost his in the act that crushed his wife to death. Much later, as I ran from Isilugar to go from one end of the world to the other, I found him at the edge of the ocean just outside the settlement. He's still slumped over, but he's no longer praying. He'd said he would try to understand what he or his wife had done wrong, but it looks like that was never going to happen. He talks to Robin, noting how she's always running around helping people, even those she doesn't know. But then he says sometimes people can't be helped with a pat on the back, that it's not enough. He says he'll be going far away, and not to worry about him. Finally... "My wife always wanted to teach me how to swim." That's not an angsty teenager. The neighbors he stayed with... a mother and young son. Elro (Robin's brother) had a house nearby which was Penanced early in the game, killing his wife and daughter (Robin's sister-in-law and niece). More on Elro after this, but the neighbor's son was good friends with the little girl, and by the end of the game, he's sulking by the settlement entrance. He doesn't move, just crouched on the ground. He says he hates his mother (who shunned Robin and called her a bad influence, only to ask for help when the son went missing, then shouted for Robin to leave once she got her boy back). He says his friends are all gone, and that he wants to punch something. That's a child who had his innocence and aspirations taken by death and religious fervor. The barmaid was supposedly taken away by One Concern soldiers says the barkeep, but later you find out she had met a soldier and basically tried to use him to score residence in the safe city... you listen in on a conversation earlier between the soldier and Agent Black, as he asks her for a ticket to give to the beautiful barmaid, which it seems he understands to be passage off-planet when the world ends. He was thinking of her, but she was only thinking of leaving town to escape penance by herself. She's selfish and cynical, without a view of the whole picture. There are many stories like these that remain unresolved, and show how vulnerable and weak people can be when we're inconsiderate to each other
@@Virjunior01 I don't think the melodrama is intentional because nobody I've heard praising the game has justified it. "You know how insufferable every major character is when they talk? Here's why that's a good thing..." Coupled with critical plot holes and go-nowhere hooks, it feels more like he wanted it to be taken seriously but lacked the writing talent to do so (he's conceded to making things up as he goes along). It seems accidental because he doesn't come off as well-adjusted--e.g. he's said being on the border of autism makes him the "perfect writer" because he's highly creative but still able to effectively communicate. That alongside taking potshots at things like Final Fantasy and Marvel (while his own stories suffer such major issues) makes it clear he has a wildly inflated sense of the quality of his work.
@@_WhiteMage I'm not saying it's the best, but that even such a strange approach can still have impact. It reminds me of Jeff from the long gone Shack News "Weekend Update" I think, talking about the hoopla surrounding the Mass Effect 3 ending. When it was said "it didn't have a satisfying ending," he said "guess what else probably won't have a satisfying ending? Your life!" Things don't always need to be wrapped up in a neat little bow, and I think there's a lesson to be taken from that. And the way the main characters behave is a direct result of ideologies clashing to a point where everyone's in so deep, there can BE no stepping back to look at a big picture. Everything has already gone too far to be repaired, and that's where the game _starts._ So no, there will be no "happy ending." It's seen most strongly in Royal's development, and somewhat lack thereof. He was groomed by a society that existed long enough to become an all-powerful force into believing himself chosen by a higher power, just in time to watch it all crumble by that belief system itself's deeds. And even worse for him, as seen in the story he tells of the birthing pools, people like he and the agents also have extreme longevity, and will live for _centuries._ So he not only gets to see his world burn, but the ashes left behind. Lastly, I'm learning a tale that mirrors his by finding the NPC Leticia hidden all over the world... it's an old tale of a guy "chosen by god" who falls in love with a human woman, and is destined to watch her grow old and die, then continue life without her. It's about human extremes and misery we can all relate to, as long as we do the bare minimum to try. It's about losing, which we all must do, despite our best efforts.
@@Virjunior01 "It's like real life" is the kind of sophomoric justification a writer makes to act like their newbie mistakes were intentional. Like the military/religion/government (all three are the same unambiguously evil entity here) is inexplicably dumb in banning all energy sources except the one it _knows_ destroys whatever celestial body it's mined from. That's the mandatory one for some reason. This can get justified with "Real world groups also do stupidly self-destructive things sometimes," but that's just the fallback I'd use to run cover for a weakness I'd accidentally written in from a lack of planning.
@@_WhiteMage but it's what works. When something is too outlandish and inauthentic, it goes the other way into crappiness. You know the common praise that a world feels "lived-in," by prop-design or world-building? That's by adding realism to things, thinking about how how they work, how they're fueled, where that fuel comes from... And even then, a lot of that can be jettisoned if your characters are strong, believable or both... look at Chainsaw Man. Your main characters are all the type of functioning psycho or scumbag who WOULD get into Devil Hunting, and as such, you honestly shouldn't really like most of them either. The most realistic ones are the most cowardly, also. The ones who aren't whining verbally still act out in self-destructive, painfully simple ways that still belie some kind of deep melancholy, even if it seems they're free of fear or caring. I think it's not really so much praising the writing abilities of somebody with "screws loose" who may not seek to study and refine storytelling itself, but the honesty in NOT doing so and putting out honest feelings instead. When read that way, you can see a nihilism or rejection in such works, which can be refreshing not only to people who those feelings resonate with, but to people who are _tired_ of established formulas.
I don’t understand your big question “if this borrows from that, why don’t I just play that,” gee I don’t know, maybe bc you can’t get enough of this genre and you play as many of these kinds of games as you can get your hands on and enjoy the different wrinkles each developer puts into the game? What a stupid question that you kept asking as though it were profound
this is more of a personal preference thing , most people don't have time to play 100+ games from the same genera , maybe some just want to keep replaying their old favorites.....
![Iconoclasts - An Analysis Of The One Concern Agents [Indie Bytes]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9zoMC8rbkv0/mqdefault.jpg)
I like that from the get go you're literally smashing the statues of the one they call "mother" whilst using her as a save. You're already an iconoclast.
Also interesting how when you save at the Isi town, the statue is their mother, father and child motif, but Mother is underneath both statues on that screen, looking more menacing.
i'm at the endgame for Iconoclasts and have found myself extending the game... running around trying to 100% everything just to keep the feeling going. I played the metroids, the castlevanias.. even owlboy which is fantastic. but there's something about this game that not only hits just the right notes of nostalgia, but does an incredible job at building a world and a story. even the small details like humanizing the one concern soldiers (a bonus quest shows the soldiers were organizing a game night but it's no longer happening because the organizer died) give this little pixel game a very similar emotional pull as the epic Breath of the Wild. Brilliant takeaway and explainer. Thanks for the video!
Have you tried “Unsighted” ?? That’s another good one
I downloaded this like 5 years ago, got right up to endgame, and did the same thing... then put it down and never went back. Forgot all about it.
Last night, i found it again while going through my library. Fired up that old save and accidentally went to the final boss (i had a feeling though, as that final stretch of travel looked like Super Metroid's), and beat it.
I'm going through the whole game again to try and get 100%, but while i got the basic gist of the story's hamfisted ideological setting, it feels a bit different in 2024. For one, the "One Concern" seems pretty obviously to be "Single Issue," as in voters that tend to skew heavily and fanatically religious. And it's even more interesting that their behavior and beliefs mirror American conservatives, who honestly think nothing of global warming or environmental regulations, coming from a place where they feel "God put this all here for us to _use,_ and when catastrophe comes, it was his will anyway. We'll be spared for our faith."
On the other hand, while trying in a slight way to "both sides" things, Mina is presented almost as a bleeding heart "liberal" in the usual way that's demonized by the right of various capitalist countries, straight down to short-sighted violence as her motivating attitude.
All in all, while silly, it's neat that a developer decided to even approach such philosophies and depictions in a video game.
As Iconoclasts is basically one of my favorite games ever, I am so glad your review did it justice. I have only ever heard people say good things about this game, and yet so few people I know have actually PLAYED it, long after I burned through my hype for this masterpiece. More people need to know about it. XD
any reccs for games of the same "quality"
I'm not necessarily looking for platformer games or story games, I think my love for iconoclasts extended from the fact that it's a "good game"
it didn't feel lackluster in any aspect and i was always satisfied playing it
is that jst too high a bar or? I havent really played too many games so idk
@@ghetoknight7801 If I had to pick other games I enjoyed as much as Iconoclasts, I would go with Bug Fables: The Everlasting Sapling, which is heavily inspired by the first two Paper Mario games. That's my first instinctive answer.
Imagine the news though, like after Robin kills the starworm
"Breaking News! Local mechanic becomes so amgry she kills our god! We asked her for her comments qnd she told us "Normally, I would have just let us all die. Unfortunately, he had to talk shit on a Wednesday of all days. I hate Wednesdays" what a story!"
To quote Micheal Pruski from the Sonic Adventure video comment section, "I'm not sure where you just took me but that was a journey nonetheless".
When I see another one of your Videos post I always like to set time aside, to watch without distraction. Your art deserves nothing less. You don't just give us a review, you give us a quick window into you. And to me, that's one hell of a journey to be on, and I'm happy as hell to be part of it.
I really did like the video, its always nice to see someone's perspective on Iconoclasts. That said, I felt you were pitching this game as something incredibly young that was inspired by a sea of indie releases from the last decade, when really, this game had been in development since the year 2010. It is even older than that, if you consider the prototype Ivory Springs from 2007. I think this game definitely takes a lot from Super Metroid, Metroid Fusion, a little bit of Symphony of the Night, and I can even believe it was inspired by Cave Story. However, anything beyond that... I'm not so sure. Konjak has been a powerful force in the indie game scene for a long time. Chalk, Noitu Love 2, which are both pre-2010, are incredible examples of solid game design.
Of course, I'm not trying to shame the idea that being inspired by things is bad, and in a way, every piece of media is undeniably inspired by what came before it, but I also think Konjak deserves a little more credit. Hell, I'm pretty sure him and Simon Andersen of Owlboy fame are super close friends that grew up together, based on their Twitter interactions. I'd see this less as a child of Owlboy, but rather Owlboy's sibling.
Sorry if this came off as confrontational at all, not my intention. I just felt like pointing this out. I enjoyed your review a ton, and I wish more people would give this game a chance. It really is something special. Also, the scripting and video editing was superb. Thank you for the content. Hoping you get more viewers throughout the rest of the year.
No man that's a great point, it was only after writing most of the video that I learned how long Iconoclasts was in development - you're right on the money that many, if not most of the games I listed as tributes more likely just shared some ancestral DNA. I didn't do much re-writing on that section of the video but decided to keep it as more of an "Iconoclasts has a lot in common with these games" rather than "Iconoclasts borrows much from these games." In retrospect, properly editing this section to clarify this would not have taken much work outside of a little re-recording.
But hey, at least I was consistent with my Super Metroid metaphor!
Thanks for the watch and the meaningful comment, it always means a lot.
I love this game. It definitely owes to the dozens of Metroidvanias that came before but it masterfully comes together as its own thing. Story-wise it reminds me so much more of SNES/PSX era RPGs though. Specifically Xenogears: The story revolving around a religious order that controls the world, with various factions fighting against it or for it, the main character facing "God" in the end, and the reveal that the God was some sort of extra-terrestrial being that has almost nothing to do with the conflict the humans have been engaged with for centuries... It's all very 90's Squaresoft.
I described Iconoclasts to my friends as the greatest SNES game ever made that wasn't for the SNES.
9:38 Welcome. Welcome to City 17. You have chosen, or _been_ chosen to relocate to one of our finest remaining urban centers.
I thought so much of City 17 that i elected to establish my administration here, in the citadel so thoughtfully provided by our benefactors.
Really well done! I just finished Iconoclasts- loved it!- and I've been meditating on its themes and such since. You made a lot of cogent points- I especially liked the way you articulated how the characters existed before the player interacts with them and the way that existence continues with characters off screen. And I didn't even see past the video game facade to notice that Robin is making a map- one of three people doing it illegally!
Overall, great stuff, well earned follow, and I'm looking forward to more 😁
This was a very good video. After I finished the game I was in shock and imediately searched for videos and this one was amazing
Hot darn that wasn't bad at all! I appreciated my secret cameo and I always love it when Karl makes an appearance. I love to get to see things from your perspective in these and I love that you make it accessible even to people who aren't really gamers.
Also, and this bears repeating:
Robin is fucking hot.
Video is 2 years old when I've finally found it and I've watched a whole playthrough of iconoclasts and loved the story and characters but could never verbalize why it resonated so much with me until I found this video!
I rly like this game, and long waited for a serious analysis like this
I thought giant bird is that all the things you pointed out, but also be a undefeatable thing for Robin since it's a bird, mechanic (like Robin herself), but greater. however, with the help of Mina(she conditionally joins the final fight against the bird) and the all the iconoclasm has been done till the moment, which revealed that starworm is just a machine, which can be broken or malfunction sometimes. which made it pefrorm the final blow for the bird.
I think it's interesting that after listing off all the inspiration's for Iconoclasts' gameplay you found the ending to throw you for a real loop, because I found it extremely reminiscent of Chrono Trigger's ending. Early on in Chrono Trigger, your party time travels to the future in 2300 AD, when the planet is basically dead. The gang finds out that the state of the world in the future was caused by something called Lavos. They resolve to use their ability to time travel to prevent this, through any means necessary, but you don't really have any idea of what Lavos is besides that it killed the earth. So the party uses their time travel to visit various points in history to figure out what Lavos is and how to stop it.
At the end of the game, it is revealed that Lavos is an alien life form using the earth's life to develop into an adult version of its species, as basically a parasite. It gives the impression that despite the size of your journey across space and time, there are things going on in the universe that are much larger than you, just like Iconoclasts' Starworm. Chrono Trigger even features a society that worships Lavos and uses it as an energy source, until Lavos eventually destroys them.
Just in general I thought this game's story structure was far more similar to a JRPG than to its metroidvania bretheren, JRPGs have loved to build a world that you care for before tearing it away in a midgame plot twist for forever. In fact, that's why I saw it through to the end. My first time playing Iconoclasts, I dropped it a couple hours in. I'm not entirely sure why. But a few years later, I was watching Tim Rogers' Kotaku review of Dragon Quest XI, where he points out that Dragon Quest loves to show you things that you can't do, so that you remember them when you get something that will let you do them. I thought to myself, "Hey, that sounds a lot like Metroid". I mused about the idea of a Metroidvania with a more JRPG-esque story structure, until I remembered Iconoclasts being kinda like that, and resolved to see it through. I echo the sentiment of another commenter that Iconoclasts doesn't really feel like a Metroidvania. While it looks like a Metroidvania and sounds like a Metroidvania, I think it's built like something completely different, and I think that's really neat.
The biggest compliment I can come up with is that you somehow managed to achieve the same miracle as the game itself: not one word too much, not one too little. :)
(PS: my interpretation about the bird person and some related events is a little different, or extended i should say, but I'll keep it to myself so that others may unveil the secrets on their own)
Thank you for the response! I'm curious what your take on the bird person was, though - I've heard others say that it's a surreal gag more than an attempt at a serious plot point, but if it's not either of those I'd love to hear.
@@drewlov red robin fighting the blue jay , over white stuff in the stars? MERI-...
it does seem more gag like to me , but i don't understand anything about this game unlike you....
@@iamLI3 bro a robin fighting a blue jay? I literally had never made that connection until you said it!
Anyways, the ending can definitely be both, or either one. Something funny can still be meaningful in other ways, too. It IS funny! But it's also true that the Starworm had no connections with the people of the planet, and that they blindly worshipped something that was completely oblivious to them.
@@drewlov LOL YOU SERIOUS? that was the most obvious thing for me from that fight XD
The major message I received from it was "Hey, your god is literally just A GUY." and it's a message about blind faith and its repercussions.
But admittedly, the big bad bird boy themselves is actually a fairly perfect parallel for Robin herself, as they don't speak a word, they fight with mechanic's tools, and, well, the entire bird thematic.
This deserves more attention, 7k views is nowhere near enough. Props to you man, may the algorithm bless this soon.
Jesus, this video is great.
You gave me some food for thought in an entertaining way by talking about a game I didn't even have any interest in before.
I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw your subscriber count is so low.
Normally people would say some phrase like "I know that if you persevere your effort will be rewarded and your channel will be as big as you deserve", and frankly, I can't pretend that it will. Sometimes life just isnt that fair. But I do know that your voice is worthwhile, so for my part, you've got a new subscriber.
Great stuff! I definitely struggled a bit figuring out what to praise in this game that goes above and beyond stuff that has existed before (though, I must admit, I am far less versed in platformers than you are). I think you got it 100% right that it's the impact of the story that makes it worth taking a ride in the otherwise pretty standard vehicle of a game. Like taking a Honda Civic to Grand Canyon or something, idk.
Lol what a phenomenal metaphor
Great video about a great game. It is one of the most similar games I’ve played to Cave Story, which is another amazing game. Great job, I hope this reaches a larger audience.
this is a VERY good video and too few people talk about iconoclasts :( it's got some pacing and game design issues for sure but the character arcs and world are so incredibly interesting. if I could change one thing about the game, I would make agent black the final boss - the actual final boss is more connected to the worldbuilding and overall story, but it has no emotional connection for the players, whereas agent black's character arc is EXTREMELY emotional and built up over the whole game. hers is the story that remains in my mind most strongly, years after playing for the first time.
one minor note - the quote from charles manson is one of TWO references to the real world, the other one being the flags of our earth countries painted on the side of the isi ark in the one concern facility!! this implies, maybe, that the isi arks were originally used to transport humans from earth to this new terraformed planet??
Good catch on all that! Did you notice I said that "it's world building without any prior framework" while using the Isi ark clip? ;)
While I agree the Agent Black fight has more going for it than most other games have in their entire package, I think its placement in the story is kind of... Optimal? It acts as THE turning point, more so than any other event in the game. When you launch the rocket, everything changes. Black gets the privilege of acting as the final barrier between you and (literally) the great unknown.
I just started playing this again yesterday (after a 5 year hiatus), and one thing I failed to notice was at the top of the Tower in the Shockwood... there are three pictures in the upper four rooms: the Taj Mahal, Great Wall of China, and Statue of Liberty/Manhattan.
Very impressive review. Love this style of reviewing games. I just purchased it on the eshop since it’s on sale and now you got me hyped!
Genuinely my favorite game of all time. Glad to see ppl covering it ✊
Fantastic video! I loved the verbal and visual gags, the pacing, and how insightful it was!
I really like the format of your video essay! It's easy for me to remain engaged.
I am indeed someone who can google things, and I find it kind of funny that I played through this entire game's story and realized "I should probably know what the title means" and went to check and got a DIFFERENT definition. Mine was basically about people rejecting authority figures, which I took as totally fitting too since [BIG SPOILERS] almost all of Robin's crew reject a personal authority figure beyond just Mother. Robin and her grandfather, who keeps appearing in flashbacks saying "Please god don't become a mechanic" to which Robin responds "no :)". Mina and her parents, Royal and Mother (eventually), but he still falls back on the old ways when he meets Him. Only Elro seems to not fit the mold, constantly parroting their uncle's words to Robin, just to be ignored all the same.
I guess I just wanted to make this comment because I had no idea that the religious angle was even something that this game was doing until I watched this video that's been sitting in my Watch Later for years, waiting for me to feel ready to step back into this world, and I think it's really impressive storytelling that it managed to incorporate 2 (at least) definitions of "Iconoclast" into the game.
I'd be interested in seeing the effect this game's story would have on religious people.
Of course there'd be plenty who'd discard it but for those not too ingrained in dogma I'm curious about what lines of thought it would spark.
I'd honestly put this game on a list of Must Play for everyone just to see what it could rattle loose.
I'm glad this game's stil getting attention.
And man, this review was good!
I loved my time with this game, It scratched a gaming itch that hadn't been touched since I played Gaia and Terrenigma on the snes. It's that weird feeling the game leaves in my gut that I have a hard time putting my finger on and that's a good thing. Great video BTW.
Terranigma was amazing
@@Virjunior01 Amen.
This video is so clean Drew stoked to see you making such quality content
12:56 An early minigame challenge (color sorting the explosive chemicals) winks pretty hard at the player about what NPCs are doing during it.
Really well done narrative and video edits! Excellent review
Awesome video!! Really like your voice and train of thought when narrating! 👍🏻
rendezvous with rama but make it cute
Lmao I didn't bring up Rama because it would give away, you know, everything about that book
I loved this game. The only thing stopping me from replaying is the parts where you have to play as Mina.
Stinky pirate
Least she's cute
@@drewlov I don’t mind the smell, just how she controls.
I don't even know most of the games mentioned here that Iconoclasts is supposed to take from. Still enjoyed it from beginning to end.
amazing video
i knew when i beat this game this was going to be a multiyear project for the internet to figure out what this game was actually about
i also literally came up with my own head canon for the ending of this game and what the game was making a point about lol.......
btw my fav music from the game is indoctrination , i've listened to and sign that one the most it's so smooth.....
for like the entire first third of the video i wanted to scream at the vid to talk about the story and world and im glad i waited for that payoff. i did kinda think youd talk more about the specifics of the world and characters, this vid was still rly good
Nice analysis. Nice production. You should have more subs n views.
Your channel is criminally underpopular
Soundtrack dope too
I disagree that the game picks up later. The dialogue is real af through and through, and the starting events are just as heavy as the later parts. I found the immediate world building struck too close to home ((lack of) right to repair, and layers of misinformation conspiracy).
EDIT: This is coming from a Muslim who hated every other ham-fisted atheist missionary media like NieR Automata.
? but nier is a post-human world that still has religion in it?....
and yeah the dialogue did have me cringing most of the time lol , i said man if i had a nickle for every time a character yelled and then said sorry , i would be a very rich man lol....
The thing is it doesn't need to be about God or its absence to present believable, strange, evocative or lovable characters. That's why NieR and Automata are favorites of mine.
If you're too hung up on religion's presence or some assumed schedule for the end times, you're automatically going to have a huge issue suspending your disbelief and enjoying a fantasy from an entirely alien method of thought.
I _like_ seeing how strange people's dreams and imaginations can be, so I get happy when I see stuff like that.
Also, keep in mind a lot of Japanese made stuff likes using Abrahamic iconography and passages, but are not actually atheist. The "national religion" is Shinto, which does not function at _all_ like an Abrahamic religion, for obvious reasons. There is no "promised land," an eternity of happiness for the faithful or anything.
Part of why I dropped out of Christianity pretty early in life and have generally not had a good opinion of the Abrahamic religions is because they've been so easily used to manipulated huge swaths of people into continental war and complacency by dangling a big "trust me bro" reward in front of practitioners.
I don't like it being used by born-again and Evangelical christians to justify oppression and claim special status, just as I don't like how Islam or Judaism do it. And don't get me started on the Hindu _caste._ 😅
very insightful video!
13:45 - I wouldn't say that completely. Describe the premise to someone and it would sound like a cross between His Dark Materials and Dune. With a bit of 1984 thrown in.
🚨🚨🚨 philosophically dense banger alert 🚨🚨🚨
Why the fuck does this video not have more views
Reminder that this young woman/girl) killed her god because penance didn't let her sleep
Also, she went from "sinfull mechanic without much to her name" to "I dismantled an entire religious regime, fought and won against it's best super-soldiers and even killed their god" in less than a full day
Sold!
Another good job :)
16:00 What is the music in the background. I know it somewhere
Edit: thank god for you stating which one it was at the end. In my case octopath traveler
Dude that song is a punch in the fucking gut every time I hear it and I watch my own vids like once a month
amazing game, amazing commentary
Amazing analysis
Love the video
good video
I liked the game for the most part and would recommend it but I didn't like the excessive uninteresting and confusing dialogue and I didn't like the constant goal post moving.
It felt like the game was going to end on a handful of occasions and didn't which just made me feel like I wanted it to be over as the game turned into a Boss fest,
And it felt like a bit of a chore especially in the last 10% where the checkpoints become more punishing.
I loved every bit of the game up until leaving the tower yet I would still recommend it to anybody to play it's got everything.
The art the music, platforming, combat and puzzle elements are all very enjoyable for 90% of the game in my personal experience.
8/10
welp, u deserve more subs
Why does the iconoclast map look akin to that of a metroid map 1:56
Can you please just do a story summary? Would be super useful
Yeah, this game is based.
You mentioned a wiki page that has a chart of all information each character knows, but I can't find the chart. Where is it?
iconoclasts.fandom.com/wiki/Escape_Plot bam gotcha
This felt like an homage to various youtube critics in the same way that the game was. Was this intentional?
Did you catch the ThorHighHeels-type transitions, some Action Button scripting, a little NeverKnowsBest here and there? (Yes, the references are intentional, good eye!)
@@drewlov I thought I caught Matthewmatosis in there to be honest lol. But yeah, the Tim Rogers part in particular made me think that. Don't know Thor though!
@@MrWhygodwhy I mean, I've seen enough Matthewmatosis that he probably just bleeds into everything I write in essay format anyways lol
@@drewlov thats a good sign
03:55 lol
too bad this game had to have a stealth based boss that gatekeeped me from the rest of the game
It gets better after that. Ash is the worst boss in the game but if you know how to beat him it’s enjoyable.
Lol what? You don't even need to move to beat him just hide in the same spot
@@ulysses4938 it was very stressful for me and I already beat it
Well, for me Iconoclasts is as much "Metroid" or "Metroidvania" as Super Mario World was a Metroidvania. In short, it isn't one. It is a super linear game, with forks so you can get secrets. 5:55 Indeed, I'd rather play Super Metroid then Iconoclasts.
I think this game tried to be way too phylosophical. i couldnt handle and it bored me a little bit. I liked Hollow Knight lore alot more and it is more insteresting imo. But i like iconoclast maybe i will give chance to keep understanding the game story.
it's literally in the name "iconoclasts" lol....
The lore is God is fake, notice the freemason imagery throughout this game. It's just surrealism with an atheist protagonist
I appreciated the artwork and music, and 100%'d it to ensure I was giving a fair shake... but can't help but agree with all the Steam reviews on just how bad this story is. I feel like you're really overselling it here, when what players will actually experience is a bunch of melodramatic non-specific tantrums by a cast of angsty teenagers who need to blow up on one another at rather random times. I can't tell whether I disagree with any of the philosophies presented because I genuinely can't tell what they are.
You praise it for dropping us into these pre-existing settings and characters, when that seems to just be the fluke of somebody working on the same project for eight years with no editor providing an outside perspective. He really could've used the feedback here and there of "Hang on... every character is unlikeable and I have no idea what's happening."
@@_WhiteMage it's intentional. All of it, even if a bit hamfisted on its face, it's more about the characters, as most great fiction is.
Robin is the only person left at the end of the world who is positive. Hope is gone from everyone, replaced with hopes that a fantasy they've been brainwashed into believing mystically comes true, having either taken part in the destruction of their homes and society, or sat and never fought back.
I'm on playthrough 2 after 5 years, and this time, I've been going around the world finding NPCs to talk to who may have moved, or finishing sidequests I never completed back in 2019. It's interesting how there is specifically no true happy ending for anyone involving words.
The man who lost his wife in a Penance of Settlement 17? He was in misery on the upper floor of his neighbor's house, having lost his in the act that crushed his wife to death. Much later, as I ran from Isilugar to go from one end of the world to the other, I found him at the edge of the ocean just outside the settlement. He's still slumped over, but he's no longer praying. He'd said he would try to understand what he or his wife had done wrong, but it looks like that was never going to happen. He talks to Robin, noting how she's always running around helping people, even those she doesn't know. But then he says sometimes people can't be helped with a pat on the back, that it's not enough. He says he'll be going far away, and not to worry about him. Finally... "My wife always wanted to teach me how to swim."
That's not an angsty teenager.
The neighbors he stayed with... a mother and young son. Elro (Robin's brother) had a house nearby which was Penanced early in the game, killing his wife and daughter (Robin's sister-in-law and niece). More on Elro after this, but the neighbor's son was good friends with the little girl, and by the end of the game, he's sulking by the settlement entrance. He doesn't move, just crouched on the ground. He says he hates his mother (who shunned Robin and called her a bad influence, only to ask for help when the son went missing, then shouted for Robin to leave once she got her boy back). He says his friends are all gone, and that he wants to punch something.
That's a child who had his innocence and aspirations taken by death and religious fervor.
The barmaid was supposedly taken away by One Concern soldiers says the barkeep, but later you find out she had met a soldier and basically tried to use him to score residence in the safe city... you listen in on a conversation earlier between the soldier and Agent Black, as he asks her for a ticket to give to the beautiful barmaid, which it seems he understands to be passage off-planet when the world ends. He was thinking of her, but she was only thinking of leaving town to escape penance by herself.
She's selfish and cynical, without a view of the whole picture.
There are many stories like these that remain unresolved, and show how vulnerable and weak people can be when we're inconsiderate to each other
@@Virjunior01 I don't think the melodrama is intentional because nobody I've heard praising the game has justified it. "You know how insufferable every major character is when they talk? Here's why that's a good thing..."
Coupled with critical plot holes and go-nowhere hooks, it feels more like he wanted it to be taken seriously but lacked the writing talent to do so (he's conceded to making things up as he goes along).
It seems accidental because he doesn't come off as well-adjusted--e.g. he's said being on the border of autism makes him the "perfect writer" because he's highly creative but still able to effectively communicate. That alongside taking potshots at things like Final Fantasy and Marvel (while his own stories suffer such major issues) makes it clear he has a wildly inflated sense of the quality of his work.
@@_WhiteMage I'm not saying it's the best, but that even such a strange approach can still have impact.
It reminds me of Jeff from the long gone Shack News "Weekend Update" I think, talking about the hoopla surrounding the Mass Effect 3 ending.
When it was said "it didn't have a satisfying ending," he said "guess what else probably won't have a satisfying ending? Your life!"
Things don't always need to be wrapped up in a neat little bow, and I think there's a lesson to be taken from that.
And the way the main characters behave is a direct result of ideologies clashing to a point where everyone's in so deep, there can BE no stepping back to look at a big picture. Everything has already gone too far to be repaired, and that's where the game _starts._ So no, there will be no "happy ending."
It's seen most strongly in Royal's development, and somewhat lack thereof. He was groomed by a society that existed long enough to become an all-powerful force into believing himself chosen by a higher power, just in time to watch it all crumble by that belief system itself's deeds. And even worse for him, as seen in the story he tells of the birthing pools, people like he and the agents also have extreme longevity, and will live for _centuries._ So he not only gets to see his world burn, but the ashes left behind.
Lastly, I'm learning a tale that mirrors his by finding the NPC Leticia hidden all over the world... it's an old tale of a guy "chosen by god" who falls in love with a human woman, and is destined to watch her grow old and die, then continue life without her.
It's about human extremes and misery we can all relate to, as long as we do the bare minimum to try. It's about losing, which we all must do, despite our best efforts.
@@Virjunior01 "It's like real life" is the kind of sophomoric justification a writer makes to act like their newbie mistakes were intentional.
Like the military/religion/government (all three are the same unambiguously evil entity here) is inexplicably dumb in banning all energy sources except the one it _knows_ destroys whatever celestial body it's mined from. That's the mandatory one for some reason. This can get justified with "Real world groups also do stupidly self-destructive things sometimes," but that's just the fallback I'd use to run cover for a weakness I'd accidentally written in from a lack of planning.
@@_WhiteMage but it's what works. When something is too outlandish and inauthentic, it goes the other way into crappiness.
You know the common praise that a world feels "lived-in," by prop-design or world-building? That's by adding realism to things, thinking about how how they work, how they're fueled, where that fuel comes from...
And even then, a lot of that can be jettisoned if your characters are strong, believable or both... look at Chainsaw Man. Your main characters are all the type of functioning psycho or scumbag who WOULD get into Devil Hunting, and as such, you honestly shouldn't really like most of them either. The most realistic ones are the most cowardly, also. The ones who aren't whining verbally still act out in self-destructive, painfully simple ways that still belie some kind of deep melancholy, even if it seems they're free of fear or caring.
I think it's not really so much praising the writing abilities of somebody with "screws loose" who may not seek to study and refine storytelling itself, but the honesty in NOT doing so and putting out honest feelings instead.
When read that way, you can see a nihilism or rejection in such works, which can be refreshing not only to people who those feelings resonate with, but to people who are _tired_ of established formulas.
I don’t understand your big question “if this borrows from that, why don’t I just play that,” gee I don’t know, maybe bc you can’t get enough of this genre and you play as many of these kinds of games as you can get your hands on and enjoy the different wrinkles each developer puts into the game? What a stupid question that you kept asking as though it were profound
this is more of a personal preference thing , most people don't have time to play 100+ games from the same genera , maybe some just want to keep replaying their old favorites.....
this was a really great video! thank you for making it