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- Опубліковано 18 вер 2024
- Father Josiah Trenham discussing In Vitro Fertilization
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#religion #politics #news #politics #viral #podcast #jesus #prayer #orthodoxchristianity #jesus jesus #christianity #patristicnectarpublications #patristicnectar #frjosiahtrenham #josiahtrenham #orthodoxchristianity #orthodoxchristian #christianity #church #jesus #jesuschrist #god #shorts #salvation #youtubeshorts #ytshorts #priest #ministry #pastor #identity #internet #christianity #churchfathers #saints #conscienceFather Josiah Trenham
My husband and I suffered secondary infertility after our first child and it was a great sorrow for us to have six miscarriages, but praise the Lord, he used it to draw us closer to the one true faith. As we began to believe in Him, He added one more child to our family. But this child was soon followed by three more miscarriages until we were crowned. Since our crowning on St Stephen's Day in 2022 and thanks to the intercessions of St Stylianos, St Anna and the Theotokos we have had no miscarriages, one more beautiful child, and another on the way! I became an expert in fertility along the way and counsel other couples on how to improve their chances through practical measures, but i never forget the power of faith, hope, and prayer because only He opens our wombs.
Is one of the practical measures to reverse infertility to heal the digestive system, ravaged by modern industrialized diet and also to bring back nutrient rich animal fats in the diet? That's my understanding, at least.
@@GospodiPomilui yes, that's a big part of it for many couples.
Glory be to God - what an amazing testimony 💞
Glory to God! What an incredible story
Our story is similar in a lot of ways, the loss of our first child at 40 weeks on August 15th, 2021 was what ultimately led us to Orthodoxy (I had no idea that date held any significance, what an unexpected comfort in the midst of tragedy). We were blessed with another child 20 months later, who was baptized in the same horse trough as his father (I was chrismated). In the year it took before we conceived our rainbow baby I had a lot of free time so I did extensive research on fertility, which I've been able to share with many of my friends. There are so many aspects of modern life that make conception so difficult! Knowledge about how to improve fertility is so needed
This is because you are not supposed to be obsessed with having a baby. Allow God to give it freely to you or not. Don't worry. Babys are not there to fulfil your personal interests. Allow God to act freely in your Life. That is called Faith.
This was heavy but had to be heard.Thanks for sharing this Fr. Josiah.
Blessings dear father. Thank you for bringing light to this often ignored issue.
So true
Amen ♥️
I always respect and listen to what you say. I don't always agree, but I respect. Thank you for your message and may God bless you and yours.
Thank you for your heartfelt doctrinal perspective on the IVF issue...love your Godly explanations.
Dear father, thank you so much for such salvific information. If only more voices within the church would inform and speak out!
May God give you many blessed years!
Before embarking on our IVF journey my husband and I spoke to our priest who went to the Arch Bishop to gain advice for us. Only with their consent did we commence IVF and always used only our own egg and sperm ( no third party) and only created 3 embryos ( babies) per fresh cycle as I would try to bring every life to a full term pregnancy and not destroy and life. We were only blessed with one beautiful child and after miscarrying my last pregnancy decided our family was complete. Our Priest advised us that God gave man the intelligence to provide IVF so as long as we had complete respect for life and our marital vows we could participate in IVF.
Thank you for sharing this.
So you destroyed the other 2 human lives?
@@Nomadestra1776 They are all implanted, so if God wanted her to have triplets, it would work that way. You should not be so judgemental. Her archbishop gave his blessing.
@OrthodoxInquirer That's not how IVF works. And by the way, you're being judgemental. There's nothing wrong with judging as long as you judge people righteously by God's laws. Without judgment, there is no society, no law.
Also, that's not how IVF works. It's not a 100% success rate, so the human embryos that don't take by the mother end up getting destroyed. Sometimes, it can be ten to 20. Those are all viable human lives. Do some more research on it.
@OrthodoxInquirer That's not how IVF works. If God intended it to work like that, doctors would not have to implant an exorbitant amount of embryos just so one would take. The fact is those are human lives being destroyed in the process. And what does judgemental mean to you? You're being judgemental to me. God tells us to judge each other righteously. That's why we have laws, and you go to prison for breaking laws.
Buy Fr. Josiah's book on Marriage - "Enduring Love: Laying Christian Foundations for Marriage" - Link in description!
Do you belive abortion is a sin?
@@cindyeyre8483 did you watch the video?
Dear Father Josiah I live in an Orthodox traditional environment where they teach us that is MUST to get married and have children. It is big shame if this goal is not met. Couples without children are very often silently pushed on the side from the community. Because of this pressure me and my wife decided to go on IVF. May God have mercy on our sinful souls. I think this is also one very important topic the church should discuss. Glory to God☦️🙏🏻
I pray that all will go well for you.
Why do you give in when other people put pressure on you ??
Start thinking for yourself !!!!
BTW I never heard from an orthodox community to tell a couple they need to have a child .
Anyway, I hope you will be ok with the decision you made
Your community is definitely in the wrong, and by all appearances not embodying true Orthodox faith where everyone is valued as equal and no shunning should exist regardless of happenstance...
@@KhABCDLeoeven father Josiah has many videos where he praises having lots of children and even though he does not directly shuns out those who do not have kids and I am sure he is well intended, his narrative can be a direct push for others to keep asking questions about kids and have different attitudes about those who have a lot of children, and make assumptions about those who have none. I heard a lot of priests saying how kids are the purpose of life and marriage, in a church full of people, therefore rendering a lot of people purposeless. Yes, you can think for yourself but In the end pain comes from the heart not from the brain. I do not fully expect someone who has 10 kids to have full empathy for someone who has none, but I expect that if someone goes to church and is on channels like these ones, his heart is in the right place and should not be reminded with every chance of their biological failure. For those not religious/orthodox, I doubt these videos will do anything rather than enlarging the divide into an already split apart society
@@dianaalexa8020Sounds like you’re making a lot of assumptions
I decided not to "push" my own agenda, because I just didn't feel right about IVF. My husband and I now help support 92 children whose fathers were soldiers killed in war by financially assisting their mothers or extended family to care for them. I'm thankful God and our church gave us that opportunity, plus nieces and nephews to love.
What a mighty sacrifice and what a mighty blessing. Thank you
@@ZachareyQuintana-qi4td thank you
God bless you for your righteousness.
Im glad you found a way to reconcile. Hard choices.
Im glad you found a way to keep children in your life. Christmas is brutal without them around.
That's awesome 👌 👏
Me and my wife were trying to have children for 10 years and we have been together for 18 years (since we were teenagers). We are 100% healthy and fertile we just couldn’t for some strange reason.
I never lost hope and I prayed to God to eventually have children and then through IVF my son was born this year on Orthodox Easter.
Not to long ago we baptized him. IVF is not a 100% to work. I cannot see how it can work without God being involved. I view my son as a miracle from God. There is not a week goes by that I am not saying to my wife “We have a son! It is incredible” and it’s not a day goes by without me thanking God for this incredible gift.
Creating a life is a miracle and I don’t think that God is any less involved in IVF than in natural way.
Also we got 2 embryo left, and yes we will be using them. It’s up to God if it will work out or not.
Good can use all evil for his good purposes. That doesn’t mean we should pursue evil.
@@fujikokun imagine saying that him being a father and having a son is evil
@@bronicage5666 That's not what he said, you twist words in these comments to manipulate emotions and distract from the moral problems presented.
@@CA-jz9bm Perfectly said, we cannot force life on God, he’s the only one who can give it.
@bronicage5666
Being a father isn’t evil. The means of becoming a father can be evil. For example, a man could decide he wants a child, but he has no women who are interested. So he decides to kidnap and rape one to achieve his goal. Obviously the means of achieving his fatherhood status is a work of evil, but God in His providence can do good even if we sin. Simply allowing fatherhood to outweigh the means of achieving it is going to create many problems.
This guy brings up many good points about the efficacies of IVF outside of wedlock and same-sex marriages. I would wholeheartedly agree with those. I would even agree with his point on surrogacy, but for those who are trying,within the confines of marriage and plan to use all their eggs, I still don’t see a moral issue. We can fertilize the egg all we want outside of the womb, but the womb has to accept the egg and that can only happen with God‘s will. just because we implant does not automatically mean pregnancy. I think that that is missed and must be considered
@@kburr44 Exactly!
God's will is not just a probability for the rejection of implanted eggs. That's conflating causes with effects.
I agree as well. I think my primary concern is really whether or not every embryo that is fertilized, is provided the opportunity to be born. Not that they all will, often they don't, but the idea of leaving some frozen forever rubs me the wrong way.
@@WarloyJenkinsthis 💯 %
@@WarloyJenkinsI think what you’re saying is the biggest crux of the problem. IVF is so expensive most people can’t even afford to do multiple rounds to use all the embryos collected. The problem is aquring enough eggs to be statistically viable and not so much that we’re wasting life. That can only be “solved” through prayer and being willing financially and spiritually to make every effort to utilize all of your eggs regardless of outcome
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO ITS NEEDED!!!
Gods way is the best. There's way too many problems when we choose science over faith in God.
True statement!
Ok buddy next time u get a carcinoma dont go to the doc 😊
Peace be with you.
A fascinating presentation, bringing up aspects I'd not throught about.
Very edifying. Thank you.
I m a devout Orthodox Christian, a proud husband, but unfortunately a victim of stress and pollution and therefore I have issues reproducing via natural means. I feel IVF is a miracle coming from God. If God wouldn t want humanity to achieve this point, then this point wouldn t have been achieve.
If me and my wife won't be able to concieve naturally, then we ll so IVF in a heartbeat. If God wants us to have a child, then IVF will be successful
Thank you father ❤
✝️ ХРИСТОС ВОСКРЕСЕ ✝
БОГ С НАМИ ПРОТИВ ЗЛА И ИСКУШЕНИЙ ✝🙏⛪👩❤️👨💍👼🕊
Ἀληθῶς Aνέστη! ☦
Ваистину Воскресе
In 27 years as a 'revert' I have never heard a priest speak on these complex issues from the pulpit or in parish educationals. I'm thankful for your teaching Fr Josiah, but I'm afraid the secular Western society has passed us by on most questions of IVF and surrogacy. I pray that the Orthodox message permeates the thickened hearts of some in modern society. We may have to weep for America and comfort those struggling with these questions and keep our eyes on Our Lord.☦️
Interestingly the Russian Orthodox Church updated their stance on IVF several years ago saying that the married couple should consult with their priest, but in general IVF is permitted between a husband and wife using their own sperm and eggs as long as only one or two embryos are created and used at a time so there are no excess embryos to discard.
I did not know this, and I generally agree. Do you have a link, or, resource you could point me to?
@@George-ur8ow I don't know if the link will work but here is the title. Just search for this -> Russian Church reexamining stance on IVF in light of medical advances
@@George-ur8ow here's another to search for -> Orthodox Perspectives on In Vitro Fertilization in Russia
@@snowps1 I believe in Italy they have strict laws on IVF, or at least they did at one time, not sure if it's changed: you can only create up to 3 at a time and they must all be transferred at the same time in a fresh (not frozen) cycle. Many healthy embryos don't survive thawing so a fresh cycle gives them the best chance
The same with the Cyprus orthodox church
Stepping outside God's procreative design reminds us of Abraham and Sarah, who also did not trust God's promise and design to step outside their own marital union and function to find a different path toward the promise. Clearly, the sexual revolution in the West has been designed to take control of that which belongs to God and His design. Lord have mercy.
I feel like that’s different. They were specifically told to wait BY GOD bc he had a huge plan for them (how amazing would it be to have that direct of a line!) and raped Hagar anyway. Layers to that one.
Lord have mercy 🙏🏽
Thank you for speaking about this issue.
I got a job opportunity to be in this industry. Although I desperately need a job to survive, I've been praying about it. My Spirit knew this is a Satanic business. God answered my prayer once again through your video. Thank you Father Josiah.
How can you be against IVF? It is giving rise to a family. It is giving rise to new souls. God is on the side of life. Life on earth. I see it as the answers to prayers. Better Christians than us would have loved for the opportunity to use IVF.
Thank you for speaking the truth so clearly and beautifully. I morn the babies. I’m Unintentionally childless.
🫂
give me a try i can fix that real quick :)
Outstanding! Thank you Father. So many aspects I had never considered regarding IVF. Indeed our way is different from the world’s way.
Not only is this immoral, it works confusion. Some folks we know told us how their daughter had a baby this way (in her late 40s). The embryo was conceived about 10 years before they purchased it, making their new child literally the same age as their real child, even tho' it was born several years later by this surrogate mother. They then met the real father and will allow him to see the child he contributed to in a petri dish (probably for $$). Later they plan to tell this little person about its true origins! How grievous for those who learn they were conceived scientifically and sold to be strangers' children! How many of them may run into their own brother or sister in life, and who knows what might happen then, if they should "fall in love" with their own sibling unwittingly, since there are countless of these embryos being sold! What crazy things humans are doing messing with life like this. They told us of another woman who had twins this way. Her twins' embryos had been "on ice" (they are preserved with some type of gas) for nearly 30 years, therefore making them close to the age of the woman (surrogate mother), and yet were her children! We were blown away to learn of these goings on! It made us sick.
We too had many miscarriages, but when we talked to the Dr about fertilization procedures, we couldn't do it. God gave us four healthy sons, and we just had our 14th grandchild in August, and the 15th is on the way. God knows what He is doing; His will is best and always for our good! We can never trust Him too much! ☦Glory to Thee, our God, Glory to Thee!
Adopted children also run the risks of running into their siblings and falling in love with them. Are you against adoption too for this reason?
This post is hilarious 😂
Thank you Father for addressing this difficult topic that is a source of strong feelings for so many (understandably!)
I am currwntly studying to be an embryologist. I want to work in IVF to help people concieve. That is my primary goal.
Here in Serbia we have a big problem with infertility and the state invested a lot into IVF in an attempt to solve this problem.
I have had a big dilemma about my future work because of the issues you have mentioned Father. I have spoken to my own priest about it in passing but intend to have deeper conversations about it. I do not wish to do things against God's will, and I do believe it is His will for me to at least study this subject.
I hope in time to understand His plan for me.
Finding out why people are infertile (epigenetics, diets, pharmacological, etc) could be the goal instead of solving the symptom.
@@isawamoose It is one of my goals, yes. Right now that doesn't seem to be profitable for the state so they are shoving money into IVF to achieve a similar result.
Adoption, as an alternative to conception IVF or otherwise, is very hard here, despite people wanting to adopt a child and being excellent parents, the system makes it harder.
@@DayvMagnimagicYour first paragraph should tell you everything you need to know.
Check out NaProTechnology. It focuses on repairing the underlying cause of infertility. I have seen at least one study showing a higher success rate than IVF. A good cost benefit analysis could convince your state to shift funding.
Finding out why people have problems is only helpful in the academics. It’s useless in real life without a solution tied to it.
Early modern medicine wasn’t helpful because people knew what you were dying of but had no way to help you. What patient would take comfort in this?
You have, I would hope, every right to walk away un-harassed and un-targeted if you found a line you could not cross.
loved the sweetness of the church’s celebration of conception
I’m glad Catholic and orthodox can agree on this.
Profound and insightful commentary on the moral ramifications on the IVF. Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is His reward (Ps.127:3).
It is sad how the world would like nothing to do with our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ...it is my hope in Christ that they wake up before the end.
Well sorry, but I don’t understand why a married Orthodox couple wouldn’t consider this option with careful thought and consideration. God has endowed doctors with knowledge, and if this knowledge is used responsibly (i.e., not to assist 'homosexual couples' or single parents), then why not?
Why not help loving, caring, Orthodox people have children? Doesn’t God work in every conception? If He didn’t intend for it to happen, He wouldn’t allow it.
If God's providence has allowed me to face illness for my humility and salvation, does that mean seeking a cure is against God's will? Or should I simply accept my illness and leave it in God's hands?
Fertility issues can also be viewed as a kind of illness.
If that was you would you really choose not to explore all help that you can get (again, with great care, prayer, consideration, and making sure no conceived babies die in the process), and simply let your life pass without children?
Have you heard of God’s permissive will versus Divine will? God allows many things to happen, it doesn’t mean He wants them.
It doesn’t sound like you’re Orthodox at all; perhaps you could talk to a priest and do some research for yourself into the faith.
So, you are saying that God "doesn't want" a child conceived through IVF to be born, even though it was His will for that child to be conceived, as He assisted in it? Is the life of such a child not as worthy as one conceived naturally? Are you suggesting that such a child didn't come into this world by the will of the Almighty?
"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered." (Mt. 10-29:30)
And yes, I am cradle Orthodox. But it seems like Latins often have confusion about how God's will works.
@@БратБрат-с5н the morality of the act of conception tells us nothing about the dignity of the child. God is the creator; he chooses who is born, whether that’s through IVF or naturally. God takes every evil and uses it for good.
Nothing is evil about using medicine to treat a condition (such as infertility), or when a child is born to loving parents. Keep that in mind the next time you visit a doctor or take medication. For those who oppose IVF and deem it immoral, it’s no different from treating any other illness with medical intervention. The alternative in both cases is the same: to surrender entirely to the will of God.
I wouldn’t be here without IVF. I am extremely grateful. God Bless you all 🙏🏼
I am Russian Orthodox and my husband and I tried to have a child for over 7 years. This year with God’s help and through IVF we were able to conceive our sweet baby Alexandra ❤ Such issues are delicate but what I have always loved about our Orhtodox faith is the understanding and practical nature of it. Only God is to judge what’s right or wrong in such delicate matters.
I think the point is how many new little babies die because they were not chosen (your brothers and sisters), however you are lucky that you were chosen to be here. Definitely would be a humbling experience coming into this earth that way.
@@apparitionappalachian4591 judge not lest you be judged. Only God has the authority to judge. No one knows anyone’s full story nor anyone’s heart and it’s unkind to speak in such a way about something you know nothing about.
@@zjeniya7prazdnikova “Do not judge according to appearance but judge with righteous judgment”
and I’m not judging for pointing out that eugenics is used in IVF.
@@apparitionappalachian4591 it’s not up to me to decide if your words bring good or sew more sorrow into this world, let that be between God and yourself.
Much needed commentary.
14:00 another person affected by this process is the child itself which you lightly spoke on. The child cannot be expected to grow up in a traditional household and upbringing without a father and a mother. The child is also likely subject to bullying in a crucial time in their lives when making lasting friendships is important for development. What will happen when they are of age to have their own children? Will the cycle repeat?
This! is really quite frightening. Especially when you look at the confusion children already have today.
I was conceived out of a marriage, however it was an abusive one and led to divorce shortly after my birth. I have had to bear the consequences of that divorce since then, and it has torn me and my family apart even more. So yes, I must emphatically agree. There is no place for unbiblical conception, and parents must be VERY discerning when choosing who they conceive with.
@@ltbingus well said!
And what about the attachment disorders of a person who has experienced removal from birth mother and in some cases whole families through surrogacy. Lord have mercy on the children.
You mean men should stop r@ping women, right? You do realize that women are r@ped, so they didn’t have the privilege of “choosing who they procreate with.”
One of my favorite Mexican married couple to talk with are two people who have been life long infertile. I talked with Arturo who told me, “We tried many times to have children, but for whatever reason God decided it wasn’t for us.” I love coming over to their house to visit, outside of being enjoyable people to visit, is to serve as a reminder the primary purpose of marriage is preserving chastity. Two very devout Roman Catholics that I pray will become Orthodox Christians someday.
Some health advice, if you’re having trouble conceiving. There is a nine out of ten chance the wife has a vitamin D deficiency. Get more sunlight, eat more vitamin D rich foods, or take supplements.
They're dogmatic. IVF is the answer to all the millions of prayers sent up by childless couples.
I thank you father !!!!!
Deleting undesirable babies is just wrong!😢
It’s evil!!
especially since you have multiple, multiple other less unethical methods to prevent that and you can... you know... abstain.....
@@abhabh6896this guy is a good speaker but you can go tell that to the uneducated teens that get pregnant due to abstinence only education
@FoxEmblem01 teens shouldn't even have sex
@@abhabh6896 and yet they do, so a good solution is to teach them how to have safe sex without going in depth. Forcing kids to give birth is more wrong in my own and many others opinion
Father, I don't understand your position regarding an across the board denial of IVF ( I am neither pro nor con). However, if a husband and wife (not a homosexual couple, or single parent) can only have children by way of IVF, how is this wrong? How is there an absence of love solely because conception was not the product of intercourse? Does not God's continuing gift to humanity to endow us with the knowledge to uplift our station in life through medicine?
Mainly because the process of IVF involves fertilizing dozens and dozens of eggs, creating dozens of embryos, the vast majority of which end up being destroyed in order to produce one or two healthy ones. Those are human lives.
@60Singing also they "rank" the embryos which is basically eugenics
@@TheHappyBunny91 absolutely 😢
I think it is a gross exaggeration that dozens of harvested eggs actually produce dozens of embryos. Out of 13 eggs they managed to get from me, 3 embryos. Two boys and a girl. But that is enough.
Absolutely true. Each embryo is graded and tge parents choose. 😬@TheHappyBunny91
There is nothing in the Canons nor our Creed that negates the medical miracles of IVF much as it doesn’t prohibit organ transplants either. This is your human interpretation.
thank you for explaining the church's view on this complex issue!
Thank you father
Thank you for this video, Father!
I respectfully disagree with a lot of the points in this reflection. Having a beautiful 5 year old from IVF transfer as well as currently 13 weeks pregnant with my remaining frozen embryo, I believe these are two wonderful miracles which definitely were Gods will to be here today. God is not removed from giving life in conception in any way. He is the Giver of Life, whether that’s naturally or with fertility treatment or assistance. My husband would not have had the blessing to be a father if it were not for this process. It was Gods will because otherwise it would not have happened. We are truly blessed to have found IVF.
Just because you want it to be okay, doesn’t mean it is. Children are always good; it’s doesn’t mean that every means of having them is good.
@@BellaDevout Defending your family is always good; it’s doesn’t mean that every means of defending them is good. ... yet you would not deny people self-defence, but you would deny them children? IVF is problematic, but bringing life into this world is a miracle, one just could not do it without involving God. IVF or not.
@@bronicage5666 No one is attacking the parents choosing to resort to IVF. The metaphor doesn’t work. How is IVF self-defence against a threat? It’s a deliberate act that usually results in deaths, and it’s divorcing conception/childbirth from marriage.
@@BellaDevout what? :D I put them in the same theological category, I did not say that parents were attacked because of IVF. Defending your family can also result in death and sin. Yet defending your family is good. IVF may result in sin, yet parenthood and children are good. IVF is less certain to give you children than natural way, if God would not want you to have children you would not have them through IVF either.
Your baby is a wonderful soul and valuable as a human being. The way you conceived them is gravely sinful, an offense against God and the babies' siblings you killed, and you should repent
If your priest is not Fr Josiah then consult your parish priest if you're considering IVF. Despite my scepticism, our priest gave us a blessing to do IVF and we are blessed to have started a family in this way. This matter is not determined by this priests opinion.
This is a great reflection!
Before going though also this try to find out what Porphyrios of Kafsokalyvia said about IVF.
These saints have helped many parents conceive: St. Nektarios and St. Simeon (Hilandar monastery - Mt. Athos), with certain prayers, oil and grape, fasting and confession - many parents who could not conceive even with all the scince ended up conceiving children.
The whole process helps them come closer to God and their child grows in faith as well.
Somebody else here mentioned st Porphyrios. Where can I find what he taught?
@@markeedeep I will try to find it.
Dear father, thank you for imparting your wisdom's. A degenerate society we live.
Thank you! And I say this in love. Republicans stance on this topic is costing them votes. It impacted the last election, and it may very well decide this one. I think it's very possible this may be comment on politics in general. Personally, I don't care. These acts are an abomination. You follow God, or you follow the world.
Voting is a joke. It gives legitimacy to an illegitimate system.
@@ElonMuskrat-my8jy It certainly is very quickly becoming illegitimate, and has historically been that way.
My Protestant aunt and uncle recently "had" a child through IVF. With a donor egg and donor sperm. This is a major issue in even the Christian world, and we as Orthodox Christians must be more commandeering on this subject. We can not simply stand idly by as fellow believers demolish the sacred intent of marriage and sex.
@@qazyman It's been proven illegitimate since 2020.
@@qazyman Its been proven to be that way since 2020.
I appreciate the points raised that there are ethical concerns and the potential for abuse which should be carefully considered.
However, the line of reasoning that infertility treatment automatically removes god from the equation gives me pause. If we accept the premise that to do anything more than pray for a divine miracle is taking things out of god's hands, doesn't it then follow that virtually all medical treatment would be the same?
For instance, someone with an infection who takes medication rather than letting it run its course and trusting in god must be no different?
I would reject this argument, and say, like many have, that the discovery of medicines like penicillin were gifts god had a hand in, and reasons to be thankful.
So I pose this question: assuming safeguards were enacted to deal with the ethical concerns raised, no "spare" embryos, only performed on a married husband and wife, etc. Does a theological issue still present?
Yes. Because I know a married couple that did IVF and allowed only 4 embryos to be created for this very reason. One of those embryos fell off the petrie dish in the process of being implanted into the wife. The other 3 did not survive even though they were placed into the wife’s womb. Man forced God’s hand in creating those little lives, and they died because the womb was inhospitable for whatever reason. Man is responsible for the deaths of those babies.
This ongoing manipulation of human Life is all about lack of respect of the will of God and lack of Faith.
Don't manipulate anymore!
Good that we celebrate natural conception !❤
God wants more souls to save at the end of time. God only helps those who help themselves. Human effort and prayer and focus and God's grace gave us IVF. It is the reason my stepsister is here. Medicine is the only reason I could speak God's name. The idea that God is apart from healing and fertility is dogmatic and immature.
@@skeleton1765
God is Life. God is healing. It is in God we must put our Trust, not in medicine. Medicine can not create Life. Only God can create Life.
It does not mean we shall not use medicine, but we should not worship it or use it against God's Word.
Medicine is being worshipped today and it makes people sick.
The symbol of medicine is the snake, because the snake can intoxicate you and then the snake venom can be used to heal you from the snake's intoxication.
That is why they snake is often depicted as a circle, biting it's own tail. It is a vicious circle.
You praise medicine and say it made it possible for you to pronounce God's Word. Your words already show you put medicine above God.
Yet, it was God who created your mouth and your voice AND your healing. Your Creator deserves Your praise.
What a brave new world.
So what's to be said of us who were had via IVF. I don't know for sure but I am relatively certain that if not for the technology I would not exist. Because I might be the result of God's hand being forced. May my existence be considered unethical. Should I even be considering operating under the vision that I should not exist. I was happened with somewhat outside the confines of marriage. According to what's being inside above. If anyone's curious about the specific IVF. I'm pretty sure I was a needle I was injected into the egg that was still inside the womb.
Also don't take this is me being stand offish. I am here seeking more information and knowledge. As I pursued to try to get closer to The Jesus Christ.
These are things you should not worry about. You go to Christ who "makes all things new" all the time. That's all that matters here! You are loved by God.
God is in charge of conception no matter how it happens. It was God's will that you be here so don't question your existence for even one instance.
You are being protected by Gods grace. Pray for your parents to come to repentance.
Science should service the dignity and God-given holiness of human life and person, and I believe that this is the point here. So yes, we don’t use unbiblical practices.However, there is a general tendency towards completely dismissing science, aka I don’t trust medicine only god, which is in fact a manifestation of ones egotism,not faith. A wise spiritual father in Greece used to say: it is blasphemy to have a painkiller in my table and ask god to directly cure my headache.
I’ve seen this argument likened to a man stuck in his roof because of a terrible flood. Boats passed him by offering help, but he refused because he was waiting for God to make the flood go away. It didn’t and he drowned. He asked God why He did not save him, and He said he sent the boats.
With Joachim and Anna they had Little Mary when Anna was 70 years old St.Mary eas a miracle baby herself.
All babies are miracles. Even IVF babies. We can talk about whether IVF is moral or not, but you can't deny that all babies conceived in any way are still miracles.
@@snowps1 Yes you are right 💯❤️
This video brings up many thoughts and considerations, namely, for me, it leads to the following question: To what extent should the same standards and applications extend to the use of western advanced medicine when consideting end of-life care?
To what extent do we "go over and above" in an effort to prolong our own lives, clashing with that of the Lord's will in our lives. Might it also be detrimental to NOT take those adcanced medical steps, especially if, for instance there are child dependents?
No easy answers when balancing our own individual Will, with that of God's. Each individual circumstance and case brings with it it's own unique individual considerations; painting with a "broad brush" can lead to a disfigured mess, and often does (not saying that Father has done that here; but that we should be cautious and to the extent reasonably possible, refrain from doing so ourselves)
If end of life care involves euthanasia, just take a look at the problems Canada is having with legalized euthanasia. Slippery slope guaranteed.
The bottom line is that so many people commenting on this video have no idea about the pain involved with infertility, yet they’re comfortably able to pass judgement on a fellow Christian’s personal decisions. It’s shameful. Just what the evil one would want I’d expect.
God gave us our mind to create and support life, in the love and wisdom of God's will. Science originates from "scientia", latin for "knowledge". When science is appropriated with the love of Christ, and God's law, science can reaffirm the sanctity of life, outside of the bond of physical union. Thus, the Mystery of Conception is blessed to those married couples: the holy family- mother and father, who otherwise may not experience the blessings of parenthood. However, it must be flesh of the mother and father- no one else. Some people are rendered barren, and we must accept such infertility as God's will. These are the times when husband and wife must adopt the spirit of Christian Charity, and adopt an orphan as their own child: such is the will of God.
True science is separate from the perversions of the depraved "sexual revolution", and those questions posed in this post may be answered as such-
Be aware of Satan's trappings. If Satan can infiltrate certain religious authorities, as seen in child abuse, and the normalization of the homosexual abomination in the fractured church, then Satan can easily infiltrate science, and misrepresent perversion as progression.
Forgive me Father but I have been Orthodox my whole life and various Orthodox priests have advised that there is nothing documented in Orthodox doctrine to indicate that IVF is a sin unless you do not implant all eggs. You cannot destroy any of the eggs. It's of course an economia. Genuinely, could you please provide information on where it is indicated to be a sin? Forgive me, I'm not intending to be argumentative, just confused by the discrepency in information.
Are you sure “eggs” is the right term?
An egg is only half a genome. It is half of a life. No more waste in throwing out a bad egg than having a period.
Do you mean “embryo?” Because that is a full genome. It is a fully-functioning cell, which means it is a life.
@abcdefghij337 I agree, embryo is what I meant.
Father I'd like some clarification. Of course conception is a gift and beautiful, and an act of love as you say halfway through. Yet simultaneously do we not each confess in paraklesis "in sin my mother bore me" and that the conception of Mary and Christ were the only sinless conceptions?
Orthodox are not Franco Latin Papist.
Im
Not sure yet. I wanted a child so much. Because I wanted meaning in my life.
Not becoming a mother broke my heart. Fear my future. Not being able to love or be loved unconditionally. Maybe growing older alone. I do not see the problem for husband & wife trying IVF. But surrogacy its not correct. Or gay couples. I believe God allows life to occur in a biblical fashion family. Maybe not so much with homosexuality. But you had children priest, so you CANT speak About being childless. You don’t know what you would’ve done if you wanted a child with all your heart. I did two rounds of IVF You don’t know what you would’ve done if you wanted a child with all your heart. I did two rounds of IVF I could not implant for health reasons. It broke my heart and brought me to God. I am still adjusting to the thought of living childless life.
IVF is not about having children and giving love, it’s about ego and selfishness, wanting one’s own genes replicated. If you really wanted a child, you would take someone else’s child, you would love it as your own… not because it’s not the right sex or doesn’t share your DNA, but because it is Gods most precious creation.
@@angeleyes7401 so you do not have kids? For that reason? How unselfish of you! 🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼
@@angeleyes7401 So if people trying to have children naturally that is not selfishness, but through IVF it is? The act of wanting to have children is literally the same in both cases. All you did so far is shamed people who are already in difficult situation because of infertilely.
Adoption is indeed an option if IVF fails.
I hope and pray that you will find a way to become a mother or find another way to find meaning in life.
I also never bore any children, not for lack of trying. It’s a very sad thing for my husband and me but God knows best.
IVF provides an opportunity to develop insight into the miracle of life. After all, God doesn’t have a problem with 20-40% of fertilized eggs being discarded in a regular woman’s menstrual cycle. The control freaks must step aside and let God work with the scientists.
Great video! IVF is horrific.
number 5 11-31 Biblically accurate abortion :)
So many people in the comments clearly didn’t WATCH the video…..
You are aware that IVF is not always successful and in the end if a pregnancy appears after a long and painful protocol and is still by the grace of God.
for sure, for some reason commentators here think that humans can by themselves perform miracle of conception through science without grace of God.
Good point
The vast majority of IVF cases are married couples who cannot conceive. Using our knowledge and God-created minds to remedy this should be celebrated. That goes for any modern medicine that has both extended lifetimes and given people second chances at life.
With respect, this is incorrect. I know from having subfertility for many many years. IVF has made drs working in this field, very lazy. Most drs don't even do the basics to check the couple- mostly because ivf is big $$. Man interferes in the process with IVF and its Godc who gives life. I battled infertility 10 years and we overcame it with God and God ethical drs who DID NOT do ivf
Well done for sidestepping all of the many arguments Father gave and simply declaring the opposite conclusion based on some nebulous feel-good statement.
I really enjoy how thorough you go into the explanations of these issues. I do have a question unrelated to the ivf. I’m in my early 20s and I see how America is turning to a place I may not want to raise a family in. What are the moral implications of jumping ship so to speak? That is moving to a different country. One the one hand it seems reasonable the other like I am abandoning my home when I could be trying to change it. Thank you for any guidance father and God bless you.
The moral implications of jumping ship: You can only run so far and for so long. There are no places you can hide that the roach-like horde cannot follow.
Equating IVF and abortion is appropriate. The doctors who do the IVF are artificially fertilizing _multiple_ eggs. It's setting into motion the development of multiple embryo, only a handful of which will survive. On top of that, IVF also includes freezing fertilized eggs, until such time as the client is able to conceive a child from IVF and is finished with IVF process. But what to do with the frozen fertilized? Life begins at conception. So, if you are throwing out these fertilized eggs, this is functionally the same thing as abortion (euphemistically: terminating a pregnancy).
That is the connection.
It is morally perilous at best.
Because multiple eggs are usually fertilized- and many sperm may fertilize one egg- the doctors usually go in and kill off the weakest links, in order that they don’t have quadruplets… or for the ‘health’ of the mother not to bring more than 2 babies to term safely.
Lots of people ‘playing God’
If that isn’t an abortion, I don’t know what is.
I did not think about the soldier thing. Creepy
Brave New World
Haven't watched the video but yes IVF is immoral. For one, forming a human being in a petri dish does not sit right with me, and two, donating sperm/eggs is wrong.
I guess I would ask what if conceiving the conventional way would be highly dangerous to the Mother (ie a guaranteed death) which is certainly possible. 😊
@@xLegionaryxx watch the full video. Fr addresses putting your own will and desires for parenthood over God's.
With all due respect your discomfort doesn't determine if it's immoral. Though I understand, wisdom hesitates before coming to a conclusion.
@@frenne_dilley It's not wrong because it makes me uncomfortable, it's wrong because we are not designed to be conceived artificially in a petri dish, it is in a way playing God.
IVF does not require a donation of sperm or eggs.
Nope, not even a little ethical
I asked my Spiritual Father 20 years ago about IVF. He said no! I agreed and made a decision. My best friend single mother made a decision to have a child from the donor. Her son was born with severe disability. She is an Orthodox Christian but unfortunately she decided to listen to her desire more then God.
Just because your friend ended up with a disabled child doesn't mean that it's because she chose to go through a donor....even thr most religious people who have children naturally end up having severely disabled kids... it's all to do with genetics and chromosomal anomalies and nothing to do with desires of any God....
How cruel and sadistic should God be to intentionally bring a disabled child to this world...😂😂
@@masakkali499 God is not cruel but when we pretend to be a God mistakes happen. I will argue why we end up with the disabled child to teach us humility. Care and love. So if you go at night to the forest covered with a raw meat, is is aGod"s will when you attacked by wolf or your own making! That's what I stated in my post.
The only thing I want to say is if you discard a human life, it is a murder. So is a tremendous thing. A Christian person shoulnt do a horrible thing like that. We cannot murder!! Jesus was murdered! we cannot kill a Human person! Thats horrible.
So bottom line, putting aside all the misuse cases/scenarios (of which there are many) can an Orthodox Christian couple who are having trouble conceiving receive this assistance? Done as prayerfully as possible, one embryo at a time? How do you know that this ability is not a gift from God, all he had to do is make IVF not work (because of the creative nature of the act, only he has the first and last word on it). I would take caution in proporting to completely understand God's mind on this.
My stance on this is God ordained sex for two purposes: bonding and reproduction. Reproduction is a fruit of sex and sex alone, as Fr. Josiah articulated in this reflection. If a couple can not conceive, that is God's will. All children are miracles, again, as Fr. Josiah articulated. Contraceptives, and similarly IVF, succeeding is solely the decision of God in His vast providence and will. So yes, He may decide for IVF to bear a child, but this is not a Christian path. He also allowed Satan to test Job, this does not mean Job should've sought the testing himself. God's sovereignty is God's alone, we have His sacred Word and Tradition.
Fr Josiah did address your question, bc you should trust in God and his providence. I understand that infertility is a difficult issue.
@@WSlopeAggiewhy is infertility the only malfunction of the body that we are forced to accept as God's will? If you get cancer is that not God's will? Yet somehow we can go get treatment for it. If your arm gets cut off that's God will, but you can take your arm to the doctor and have them try to sew it back on. But infertility, no, you just have to accept that and do nothing about it.
@@Z3r0Strife Yeh I think he has missed the nuance. It is permitted to have sex with your wife and have sperm go into her when she is pregnant there is zero chance of making a baby. So his position is incosistent and not nuanced enough.
The sin alone of having your husband masturbate into a cup to collect sperm probably wouldn’t be blessed by your priest… I know it wasn’t blessed for a couple in our parish struggling with infertility.
The fertility industry is very lucrative, so I don’t trust any politician to take a moral stance for or against it. It’s money. That’s what they see.
Am I any less of a real human? Father, I have been struggling terribly with accepting the fact I was born IVF. I get overtly jealous from time to time of my friends who had a stable normal upbringing.
None of this is the fault of the children. It all rests on the ones who make the decisions to intervene in God's designed holy paradigm of conception.
@@NFS0038 basically you are saying that God's design was that he should not have been born. dude... also you have to be certain that infertility of his parents was part of God's plan and not caused by act of (evil or not) free will for example.
@@romeofernando4745 That isn't what I said, dont infer what isn't there. God does use infertility to teach people, but that doesn't mean He is the cause of it. The result is the same: you should repent and be humble in the face of God's design, and not try to countermand it.
No, you are fully human brother, even if your parents made a poor decision, this isn't your fault
@SILLY_BILLY_777 it is still incredibly difficult to cope with learning that the woman who brought me up isn't biologically related to me and I really am very lost at the moment. I don't know what to do
dark times ahead for Christians in the US
From my observation, American Orthodox are much more judgmental than Russian Orthodox regarding IVF. Not saying it is right or wrong, just an observation.
I think some views stem from being around materalism to such a degree that some nuances they feel they can’t afford at times…
There isnt any truth to that generalization. Orthodoxy is not nationalistic. There are many saints across the Globe that have spoken of the dangers of IVF,Saint Porphyrios happens to be one of them.
@@angeleyes7401that’s good to know. Thank you
Excellent information but as always, it’s best to work with your own priest and bishop in these decisions
No. IVF is not OK. Natural between primary married couple or nothing.
You sound real loving.
@@samr.i.9485 There's no love like Christian love.
@@j.c.5999bro didn’t even say it right
@@j.c.5999 😐 not funny
@@samr.i.9485 To the unborn baby, yes.
IVF by its technical nature is certainly not licit from either an Orthodox or Roman Catholic perspective
I love your videos Fr., but I will take this as a personal opinion and not the Church’s official statement. Again, with much respect to you, I disagree with the approach. God said to Adam and Eve go procreate and dominate the earth. Science is a blessing from God, if two sincere loving Christian parents, mother and father, decide to rely on science, which is a blessing from God, to fulfill his commandment of procreation, is that immoral? Also, do you stop taking medication because your illness could be the will of God? Also, let’s be very careful not to be God’s spokespeople for his will, apart from His communicated will, please let’s not interpret based on our own understanding. Also, I cannot force a life on God, IVF can simply fail if this is not “God’s will”. There’s more to this than our personal opinions, also, of the child grew up to be a faithful Orthodox Christian, is that not the will of God???
Agree
Agree x 100. Without question not the preferred method, and only that of extreme last resort.
In reference to the blessing of science, where is the line then drawn in regard to what is natural and what is using science to play God? For example, growing body parts to transplant into people, putting people on life-support instead of just letting them die naturally, heart medication to keep people alive who perhaps didn't choose to have a good diet and lifestyle. Aren't people playing God in these circumstances? Shouldn't we then just leave everything up to God or nature? If someone would die but we intervene and put them on life support, isn't that overriding God's decision? Where is the line drawn? Why is IVF being specifically targeted? Seems like cherry-picking to me.
If any embryos are destroyed in the process, it is killing innocent human lives. I don't see how a loving parent will only love some of their children only to destroy the others. There are so many children that are never adopted into loving Christian homes. As long as there are children who need homes, how can it please God that we go and take matters into our own hands rather than loving the souls He has created that are already born?
@@cheerfulturtlegirl agree on the embryos.
Many offer any exceeding, additional embryos (usually 1, maybe 2) as the case may be, to other Christian parents with a long establiahed history of miscarriages/infertility - at not an insignificant cost to the donor parents to maintain said embryo(s), I might add.
Also, are you familiar with adoption procedures in the united states for newborns? Expect to wait around a decade, maybe longer, maybe less. Red tape and significant expenses (many thousands in legal fees alone) with no guarantee of success. Many heartaches on top of heartaches. It isn't like making a trip to the supermarket.
This one's hard.
If you marry young, you're stupid.
If you dont marry young, you're risking no children (tick tock, to quote my aunt).
If you dont wait for children, youre irresponsible.
If you do wait, you're selfish and immature.
If you choose not to have children, naturally or otherwise, youre selfish.
If you adopt, you're stealing someone's child.
If you foster, youre just in it for the paycheck.
What do all these scenarios have in common? Women making their own decisions.
Its a woman's right to follow Jesus or not. I will never support politicizing this choice. But just remember, Jesus DID love women, in all our mistakes and cycles and full/empty wombs.
So I guess Ill just be sad in this life and follow him. Because what else can I even do besides love Him, and mourn forever.
Brave New World is the guidebook for our modern dystopia. Hedonism is espoused and forming families is looked down upon.
This ones hard for me
It's hard for me to say it's wrong
But
The church is much older then i
Even if we were to completely stop the idf today, what do we do with what they have in the freezers right now? I don’t know a good answer.
The sinful method of collecting the necessary …”contribution” from the husband is something I don’t see being addressed enough.
I think use to help a married couple conceive is alright. As long as they are married ( man to a woman) and plan to use all the embryos created.
Excellent info. I have always wondered if children conceived through IVF have a soul? I haven't heard this issue addressed.
Yes they do. I asked my priest. Life begins at conception.
This ones hard for me
It's hard for me to say it's wrong
But
The church is much older then iw
Hi Father,
I have a question.
When you spoke about conception being a 'miracle', I wondered what it means if God allows us to create these miracles? In a sense, he allows us the power to perform these miracles. My first question is 'what does it mean that God allows us to perform these miracles?'
The most obvious response to this idea is that miracles and sin are separate concepts. Something normally miraculous performed under the wrong context can qualitatively change the thing. For example, if we replace the word 'miracle' with 'holy' then sex is an obvious example of this reasoning. Sex is holy and sacred if performed under the right set of internal and external circumstances, but if performed outside these bounds is sinful and unholy. However, the difference between 'holy' and 'miracle' is found in the definition of what a miracle is. A miracle is an event that (if a real miracle, and not a false miracle) is good, it is from God. Therefore, even in the case of IVF, the life that comes forth and blooms from it is still a miracle. It is still good. My second question; 'does this mean that IVF is sinful for the parent but God mercifully spares the new life the extra burden of the parent's sin?'
My third question comes from my simultaneous interests in my religion (I'm a non-denominational Christian, considering Orthodoxy) and my career in Technology. At what point is the technology I use (with my intent, knowledge and free will) an extension of myself morally. For example, if IVF became advanced enough to be portable and done at home (let's say between a man and a woman), and after conception the woman gestated otherwise normally, would there be openness to the technology? This seems like an important question because I have no doubt until it's simply a matter of time before this can be done. I would like to add a few final points to contextualise the question. 1) if I were to commit a crime with a shovel, that shovel would be considered an extension of me in that crime. 2) if I stole people's property online without physically taking anything, my actions would be considered the key to judging the end result. It would not matter that there were a sequence of technological events in between my physical actions and the crime. Therefore my question is, why is technology not measured similarly here?
I would also like to add that the above above argument for technology does not apply to contraception because the act of deciding on the contraception is the key event, it does not matter what sort of contraceptive technology (or technique) then follows. This is actually consistent with the reasoning about technology in the context of a crime. So restating my third question again, why is IVF seemingly treated inconsistently?
Thank you father
Wow those are a lot of words too bad I’m not reading em
But what if you lost 2 but with IVF you get what you lost? 2 for 2?
All throughout scripture it is the Lord who opens and closes wombs. He determines the times and places of our coming to existence. I think we have to be very careful how we interact with advanced reproductive services.
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I tried to create each life in my womb but like any natural fertilisation , some babies did not survive in my womb. I used every single embryo created as I said in my post. ❤
i can't believe this is possible. too much.
Father Josiah - I have appreciated many of your videos and they have strengthened my faith. I understand some of your points in this video particularly how IVF can be a slippery slope. Any technology can be weaponized and be used in sinful ways. And I agree It is not the ideal form of conception. But to equate abortion with IVF is shortsighted and wrong. I also think you are wrong saying that IVF can’t be a product of marital love between a mother and father. Infertility is a very traumatic experience for a couple even a loving Orthodox couple. Is it not possibly to consider IVF a blessing in certain situations?
God can do anything. If He wanted you to miraculously conceive despite doctors ascribing infertility, that is within His power. But the route you go to chase having children to satisfy your own desires of parenthood matters; do you take your grief to doctors and these new, unproven, and morally complicated innovations of science, or do you take your grief to God and submit to His loving design for your life?
@@NFS0038 "miraculously conceive despite doctors ascribing infertility," yeah that is IVF. Not sure why you think that God cannot be involved in IVF as he does in natural conception. One still have to go 9 month with the baby and may have miscarriage etc just like with normal conception.
@@bronicage5666 My definition of a miracle used in that sentence was a happenstance outside the realm of human understanding. IVF is a worldly application of science, and we fully understand it, which is why there are moral questions. There aren't any moral questions about asking God for successful natural conception, because that is how He designed us, and He can make anything happen, including an infertile couple conceive naturally. One shouldn't infer that just because something is possible necessarily means that it is God's will.
@@bronicage5666 there is nothing miraculous about extracting the materials for life through unnatural processes and forcing it to come together. Ultimately it is God who allows fertility to prosper, even with IVF, but God created humanity in a certain fashion and has a certain order, which through things like IVF and surrogacy, we subvert. Subverting God's will for that of our own is luciferian
Equating IVF and abortion is actually appropriate. The doctors who do the IVF are artificially fertilizing _multiple_ eggs. It's setting into motion the development of multiple embryos, only a handful of which will survive. On top of that, IVF also includes freezing fertilized eggs, until such time as the client is able to conceive a child from IVF and is finished with IVF process. But what to do with the frozen fertilized? Life begins at conception. So, if you are throwing out these fertilized eggs, this is functionally the same thing as abortion (euphemistically: terminating a pregnancy).
That is the connection.
It is morally perilous at best.
I have embryos. And couldn’t get pregnant because I got a bad injury. How should I address this? Embryos are frozen. And don’t know how to proceed to “ destroy “ them. I dont believe in abortion. Can you provide biblical examples of infertile women??? How do we have handle this issue?? THE BIBLICAL EXAMPLES ONLY SAY WOMEN ARE BLESSED WITH FERTILITY FOR WOMEN. NEVER REALLY GIVE EXAMPLES OF INFERTILITY????
The only Biblical examples of fertility I know of are to either pray really hard or accept the infertility.
Talk to whatever company helped you get those embryos to determine what your options are. Ask God for guidance in making that choice.
The company my husband and I used required us to pre-determine what happens to the embryos, and it covered every scenario. We could not “give” them away to another prospective couple without identifying them before the process even started. Your company may be different.
We chose that, should something happen to us, the embryos would be donated for scientific study. It seemed more honorable that they be offered up in the hopes that some good could come from their deaths, than to simply throw them away.
A related question which is one for the future but will likely be technologically possible: artificial wombs? How would the Church respond to fertility-impaired married couples utilizing such a technology? If procreation were accomplished without destruction of embryos and some of the more obviously immoral elements associated with IVF like sperm/egg donation, what is our objection? The thorough medicalization of procreation? And if that would be the objection, what other forms of extreme medicalization do we reject and why? In many ways that we probably fail to realize, we have already adopted aggressive bio-technical augmentation of our bodies.
Artificial wombs are definitely in the works, but I think they severely impair the mother-child bond. Actually carrying chemically reinforces the mother’s fixation on the child, and the child knows their mother, I think, on a level we don’t understand yet. It’s said that a baby knows its mother’s voice upon birth because they were carried.
There is no consensus on IVF in the Orthodox Church.
That is a tragedy.
That is a tragedy.
Which is why its not the one true church.
@@stratmatt22 I understand your perspective but then why are almost all Catholics using birth control and MANY are doing IVF and sometimes worse?