I lost our first baby at 4 1/2 months. It had stopped living and i had to have a procedure to take it out and that hurt me so much i was depressed for a long time. After that every time i was pregnant we went to a priest for a blessing. It was the only way for me to feel like these pregancies would carry to the end. And they did. Thanks to God!
I agree with the idea that children should ideally be brought into a natural family setting with both a mother and a father. However, I believe that even if conception occurs through methods like IVF, it is ultimately God's will that determines whether a child is born. No matter how many cycles of IVF are attempted, if it is not God's plan, the child will not come into being. It is only by God's will that a child is born, regardless of the process involved.
My husband and I suffered secondary infertility after our first child and it was a great sorrow for us to have six miscarriages, but praise the Lord, he used it to draw us closer to the one true faith. As we began to believe in Him, He added one more child to our family. But this child was soon followed by three more miscarriages until we were crowned. Since our crowning on St Stephen's Day in 2022 and thanks to the intercessions of St Stylianos, St Anna and the Theotokos we have had no miscarriages, one more beautiful child, and another on the way! I became an expert in fertility along the way and counsel other couples on how to improve their chances through practical measures, but i never forget the power of faith, hope, and prayer because only He opens our wombs.
Is one of the practical measures to reverse infertility to heal the digestive system, ravaged by modern industrialized diet and also to bring back nutrient rich animal fats in the diet? That's my understanding, at least.
Glory to God! What an incredible story Our story is similar in a lot of ways, the loss of our first child at 40 weeks on August 15th, 2021 was what ultimately led us to Orthodoxy (I had no idea that date held any significance, what an unexpected comfort in the midst of tragedy). We were blessed with another child 20 months later, who was baptized in the same horse trough as his father (I was chrismated). In the year it took before we conceived our rainbow baby I had a lot of free time so I did extensive research on fertility, which I've been able to share with many of my friends. There are so many aspects of modern life that make conception so difficult! Knowledge about how to improve fertility is so needed
This is because you are not supposed to be obsessed with having a baby. Allow God to give it freely to you or not. Don't worry. Babys are not there to fulfil your personal interests. Allow God to act freely in your Life. That is called Faith.
We've been infertile for 15 years and will continue to entrust it to God and His will. We will NEVER do IVF. We only want the child He would have for us or none at all. Lord have mercy. 🙏🏻💜☦️
Thank you father for explaining the IVF topic so clearly. We must know that conceiving a child is god’s own work with a man and a woman’s cooperation. We must seek and pray to god to know his will before seeking our own will!
Dear father, thank you so much for such salvific information. If only more voices within the church would inform and speak out! May God give you many blessed years!
This is what God is saying. You don't have a difference of opinion with God, because these are life's truths, not opinions.. You can do as you wish, but you just won't be well.. Until you listen to God, you won't know just how well you can live actually..
Interestingly the Russian Orthodox Church updated their stance on IVF several years ago saying that the married couple should consult with their priest, but in general IVF is permitted between a husband and wife using their own sperm and eggs as long as only one or two embryos are created and used at a time so there are no excess embryos to discard.
@@George-ur8ow I don't know if the link will work but here is the title. Just search for this -> Russian Church reexamining stance on IVF in light of medical advances
@@snowps1 I believe in Italy they have strict laws on IVF, or at least they did at one time, not sure if it's changed: you can only create up to 3 at a time and they must all be transferred at the same time in a fresh (not frozen) cycle. Many healthy embryos don't survive thawing so a fresh cycle gives them the best chance
I got a job opportunity to be in this industry. Although I desperately need a job to survive, I've been praying about it. My Spirit knew this is a Satanic business. God answered my prayer once again through your video. Thank you Father Josiah.
How can you be against IVF? It is giving rise to a family. It is giving rise to new souls. God is on the side of life. Life on earth. I see it as the answers to prayers. Better Christians than us would have loved for the opportunity to use IVF.
I decided not to "push" my own agenda, because I just didn't feel right about IVF. My husband and I now help support 92 children whose fathers were soldiers killed in war by financially assisting their mothers or extended family to care for them. I'm thankful God and our church gave us that opportunity, plus nieces and nephews to love.
My wife and I used a form of IVF in china after 3 years of unsuccessful conception. I understand there are some moral issues at hand with some of these practices which one needs to take into account, especially for example surrogacy where a child can risk developing attachment disorders. We prayed with our church leader and conceived a baby girl through our procedure.
I am currwntly studying to be an embryologist. I want to work in IVF to help people concieve. That is my primary goal. Here in Serbia we have a big problem with infertility and the state invested a lot into IVF in an attempt to solve this problem. I have had a big dilemma about my future work because of the issues you have mentioned Father. I have spoken to my own priest about it in passing but intend to have deeper conversations about it. I do not wish to do things against God's will, and I do believe it is His will for me to at least study this subject. I hope in time to understand His plan for me.
@@isawamoose It is one of my goals, yes. Right now that doesn't seem to be profitable for the state so they are shoving money into IVF to achieve a similar result. Adoption, as an alternative to conception IVF or otherwise, is very hard here, despite people wanting to adopt a child and being excellent parents, the system makes it harder.
Finding out why people have problems is only helpful in the academics. It’s useless in real life without a solution tied to it. Early modern medicine wasn’t helpful because people knew what you were dying of but had no way to help you. What patient would take comfort in this? You have, I would hope, every right to walk away un-harassed and un-targeted if you found a line you could not cross.
@@abcdefghij337 It's not only in academics. In practice you have first hand experience in this. And I will do my best to help as best I can. I even spoke to my priest and he said not to be anxious about it, if my intentions are good. He gave me his blessing. I will not fail him. Also the clinic has a chapel in it so...
Before embarking on our IVF journey my husband and I spoke to our priest who went to the Arch Bishop to gain advice for us. Only with their consent did we commence IVF and always used only our own egg and sperm ( no third party) and only created 3 embryos ( babies) per fresh cycle as I would try to bring every life to a full term pregnancy and not destroy and life. We were only blessed with one beautiful child and after miscarrying my last pregnancy decided our family was complete. Our Priest advised us that God gave man the intelligence to provide IVF so as long as we had complete respect for life and our marital vows we could participate in IVF.
@@Nomadestra1776 They are all implanted, so if God wanted her to have triplets, it would work that way. You should not be so judgemental. Her archbishop gave his blessing.
@OrthodoxInquirer That's not how IVF works. And by the way, you're being judgemental. There's nothing wrong with judging as long as you judge people righteously by God's laws. Without judgment, there is no society, no law. Also, that's not how IVF works. It's not a 100% success rate, so the human embryos that don't take by the mother end up getting destroyed. Sometimes, it can be ten to 20. Those are all viable human lives. Do some more research on it.
@OrthodoxInquirer That's not how IVF works. If God intended it to work like that, doctors would not have to implant an exorbitant amount of embryos just so one would take. The fact is those are human lives being destroyed in the process. And what does judgemental mean to you? You're being judgemental to me. God tells us to judge each other righteously. That's why we have laws, and you go to prison for breaking laws.
Stepping outside God's procreative design reminds us of Abraham and Sarah, who also did not trust God's promise and design to step outside their own marital union and function to find a different path toward the promise. Clearly, the sexual revolution in the West has been designed to take control of that which belongs to God and His design. Lord have mercy.
I feel like that’s different. They were specifically told to wait BY GOD bc he had a huge plan for them (how amazing would it be to have that direct of a line!) and raped Hagar anyway. Layers to that one.
It would be asinine to suggest that God has not created scientist or ordained certain people to save human lives against evil (death). IVF which discards embryos seems insane. IVF which doesn’t seems like a gift from God. Regardless, the question is moreso does the federal government have a right to speak on this matter? I don’t think so.
Profound and insightful commentary on the moral ramifications on the IVF. Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is His reward (Ps.127:3).
In 27 years as a 'revert' I have never heard a priest speak on these complex issues from the pulpit or in parish educationals. I'm thankful for your teaching Fr Josiah, but I'm afraid the secular Western society has passed us by on most questions of IVF and surrogacy. I pray that the Orthodox message permeates the thickened hearts of some in modern society. We may have to weep for America and comfort those struggling with these questions and keep our eyes on Our Lord.☦️
Thank you so much for this video. From what I understand, the issue is with those abusing this medical intervention. IVF in its early days was for married couples with infertility. Now, it seems anyone with means that go for it in whatever way seems right in their eyes .
Me and my wife were trying to have children for 10 years and we have been together for 18 years (since we were teenagers). We are 100% healthy and fertile we just couldn’t for some strange reason. I never lost hope and I prayed to God to eventually have children and then through IVF my son was born this year on Orthodox Easter. Not to long ago we baptized him. IVF is not a 100% to work. I cannot see how it can work without God being involved. I view my son as a miracle from God. There is not a week goes by that I am not saying to my wife “We have a son! It is incredible” and it’s not a day goes by without me thanking God for this incredible gift. Creating a life is a miracle and I don’t think that God is any less involved in IVF than in natural way. Also we got 2 embryo left, and yes we will be using them. It’s up to God if it will work out or not.
@bronicage5666 Being a father isn’t evil. The means of becoming a father can be evil. For example, a man could decide he wants a child, but he has no women who are interested. So he decides to kidnap and rape one to achieve his goal. Obviously the means of achieving his fatherhood status is a work of evil, but God in His providence can do good even if we sin. Simply allowing fatherhood to outweigh the means of achieving it is going to create many problems.
Dear Father Josiah I live in an Orthodox traditional environment where they teach us that is MUST to get married and have children. It is big shame if this goal is not met. Couples without children are very often silently pushed on the side from the community. Because of this pressure me and my wife decided to go on IVF. May God have mercy on our sinful souls. I think this is also one very important topic the church should discuss. Glory to God☦️🙏🏻
Why do you give in when other people put pressure on you ?? Start thinking for yourself !!!! BTW I never heard from an orthodox community to tell a couple they need to have a child . Anyway, I hope you will be ok with the decision you made
Your community is definitely in the wrong, and by all appearances not embodying true Orthodox faith where everyone is valued as equal and no shunning should exist regardless of happenstance...
@@KhABCDLeoeven father Josiah has many videos where he praises having lots of children and even though he does not directly shuns out those who do not have kids and I am sure he is well intended, his narrative can be a direct push for others to keep asking questions about kids and have different attitudes about those who have a lot of children, and make assumptions about those who have none. I heard a lot of priests saying how kids are the purpose of life and marriage, in a church full of people, therefore rendering a lot of people purposeless. Yes, you can think for yourself but In the end pain comes from the heart not from the brain. I do not fully expect someone who has 10 kids to have full empathy for someone who has none, but I expect that if someone goes to church and is on channels like these ones, his heart is in the right place and should not be reminded with every chance of their biological failure. For those not religious/orthodox, I doubt these videos will do anything rather than enlarging the divide into an already split apart society
14:00 another person affected by this process is the child itself which you lightly spoke on. The child cannot be expected to grow up in a traditional household and upbringing without a father and a mother. The child is also likely subject to bullying in a crucial time in their lives when making lasting friendships is important for development. What will happen when they are of age to have their own children? Will the cycle repeat?
I was conceived out of a marriage, however it was an abusive one and led to divorce shortly after my birth. I have had to bear the consequences of that divorce since then, and it has torn me and my family apart even more. So yes, I must emphatically agree. There is no place for unbiblical conception, and parents must be VERY discerning when choosing who they conceive with.
And what about the attachment disorders of a person who has experienced removal from birth mother and in some cases whole families through surrogacy. Lord have mercy on the children.
You mean men should stop r@ping women, right? You do realize that women are r@ped, so they didn’t have the privilege of “choosing who they procreate with.”
Thank you for speaking on this very contentious topic. I'm not catholic. Though I would consider myself an increasingly conservative protestant. With age, im seeing things more and more through the Father's eyes. The world continues to devolve into chaos and madness, and His word becomes more obviously right. So I'll admit I don't share all your views exactly in regards to religious details. But I absolutely support your stance on IVF, and the sanctity of marriage and conception. I appreciate you taking the time and care to so lovingly explain the dangers and complexities of this issue. I used to think IVF seemed pretty harmless, and even felt it would be cruel to deny couples the chance to have a baby in that way. But I have matured to realize it's not so simple, and there's a lot of challenges that even the most moral approach can't solve. Thank you, again. God bless.
yes!! I’m not Orthodox, I guess I’m “evangelical” but I 💯 agree with everything you said! IVF is not something Christians should pursue nor support. We are not entitled to have children - children are a blessing from God when He deems it best to give. I’ll say it again - we are not entitled to have children. You said it well when you said God is sovereign over fertility, giving and withholding blessing when He sees fit.” Amen!! It is not up to us. I hope and pray many see this video, and truly seek God’s heart regarding conception, childbirth, and childrearing.
This is a great reflection! Before going though also this try to find out what Porphyrios of Kafsokalyvia said about IVF. These saints have helped many parents conceive: St. Nektarios and St. Simeon (Hilandar monastery - Mt. Athos), with certain prayers, oil and grape, fasting and confession - many parents who could not conceive even with all the scince ended up conceiving children. The whole process helps them come closer to God and their child grows in faith as well.
Not only is this immoral, it works confusion. Some folks we know told us how their daughter had a baby this way (in her late 40s). The embryo was conceived about 10 years before they purchased it, making their new child literally the same age as their real child, even tho' it was born several years later by this surrogate mother. They then met the real father and will allow him to see the child he contributed to in a petri dish (probably for $$). Later they plan to tell this little person about its true origins! How grievous for those who learn they were conceived scientifically and sold to be strangers' children! How many of them may run into their own brother or sister in life, and who knows what might happen then, if they should "fall in love" with their own sibling unwittingly, since there are countless of these embryos being sold! What crazy things humans are doing messing with life like this. They told us of another woman who had twins this way. Her twins' embryos had been "on ice" (they are preserved with some type of gas) for nearly 30 years, therefore making them close to the age of the woman (surrogate mother), and yet were her children! We were blown away to learn of these goings on! It made us sick. We too had many miscarriages, but when we talked to the Dr about fertilization procedures, we couldn't do it. God gave us four healthy sons, and we just had our 14th grandchild in August, and the 15th is on the way. God knows what He is doing; His will is best and always for our good! We can never trust Him too much! ☦Glory to Thee, our God, Glory to Thee!
One of my favorite Mexican married couple to talk with are two people who have been life long infertile. I talked with Arturo who told me, “We tried many times to have children, but for whatever reason God decided it wasn’t for us.” I love coming over to their house to visit, outside of being enjoyable people to visit, is to serve as a reminder the primary purpose of marriage is preserving chastity. Two very devout Roman Catholics that I pray will become Orthodox Christians someday. Some health advice, if you’re having trouble conceiving. There is a nine out of ten chance the wife has a vitamin D deficiency. Get more sunlight, eat more vitamin D rich foods, or take supplements.
I really enjoy how thorough you go into the explanations of these issues. I do have a question unrelated to the ivf. I’m in my early 20s and I see how America is turning to a place I may not want to raise a family in. What are the moral implications of jumping ship so to speak? That is moving to a different country. One the one hand it seems reasonable the other like I am abandoning my home when I could be trying to change it. Thank you for any guidance father and God bless you.
The moral implications of jumping ship: You can only run so far and for so long. There are no places you can hide that the roach-like horde cannot follow.
I have 3 yr old twins via IVF. I prayed to Saint Mary to please give me her blessing to be more like her. We tried to conceive for 9 years. We finally were able to afford the IVF. They are here through God's grace and blessing. They are baptized and we are raising them to adore God. I do have 5 embryos in cryo. Im about to be 38 years old. I found out about the church's position on IVF after going through with it. I feel so much conflict about my embryos. I wish I could have them all. I will try, in faith, to give all of them a chance to be born because of what so many priests such as yourself have said about the immortality of IVF. God willing, we can have all of our babies be born someday.
This guy brings up many good points about the efficacies of IVF outside of wedlock and same-sex marriages. I would wholeheartedly agree with those. I would even agree with his point on surrogacy, but for those who are trying,within the confines of marriage and plan to use all their eggs, I still don’t see a moral issue. We can fertilize the egg all we want outside of the womb, but the womb has to accept the egg and that can only happen with God‘s will. just because we implant does not automatically mean pregnancy. I think that that is missed and must be considered
I agree as well. I think my primary concern is really whether or not every embryo that is fertilized, is provided the opportunity to be born. Not that they all will, often they don't, but the idea of leaving some frozen forever rubs me the wrong way.
@@WarloyJenkinsI think what you’re saying is the biggest crux of the problem. IVF is so expensive most people can’t even afford to do multiple rounds to use all the embryos collected. The problem is aquring enough eggs to be statistically viable and not so much that we’re wasting life. That can only be “solved” through prayer and being willing financially and spiritually to make every effort to utilize all of your eggs regardless of outcome
I appreciate the points raised that there are ethical concerns and the potential for abuse which should be carefully considered. However, the line of reasoning that infertility treatment automatically removes god from the equation gives me pause. If we accept the premise that to do anything more than pray for a divine miracle is taking things out of god's hands, doesn't it then follow that virtually all medical treatment would be the same? For instance, someone with an infection who takes medication rather than letting it run its course and trusting in god must be no different? I would reject this argument, and say, like many have, that the discovery of medicines like penicillin were gifts god had a hand in, and reasons to be thankful. So I pose this question: assuming safeguards were enacted to deal with the ethical concerns raised, no "spare" embryos, only performed on a married husband and wife, etc. Does a theological issue still present?
Yes. Because I know a married couple that did IVF and allowed only 4 embryos to be created for this very reason. One of those embryos fell off the petrie dish in the process of being implanted into the wife. The other 3 did not survive even though they were placed into the wife’s womb. Man forced God’s hand in creating those little lives, and they died because the womb was inhospitable for whatever reason. Man is responsible for the deaths of those babies.
This video brings up many thoughts and considerations, namely, for me, it leads to the following question: To what extent should the same standards and applications extend to the use of western advanced medicine when consideting end of-life care? To what extent do we "go over and above" in an effort to prolong our own lives, clashing with that of the Lord's will in our lives. Might it also be detrimental to NOT take those adcanced medical steps, especially if, for instance there are child dependents? No easy answers when balancing our own individual Will, with that of God's. Each individual circumstance and case brings with it it's own unique individual considerations; painting with a "broad brush" can lead to a disfigured mess, and often does (not saying that Father has done that here; but that we should be cautious and to the extent reasonably possible, refrain from doing so ourselves)
All babies are miracles. Even IVF babies. We can talk about whether IVF is moral or not, but you can't deny that all babies conceived in any way are still miracles.
It’s crazy to me that people refuse to see how wrong it is to pay a surrogate to carry a child for you! A child is a blessing not a commodity. Humans are not a commodity. Also, beyond the doctors being involved, don’t forget the faceless people billing this procedure.
It brings to mind "the buying and selling of souls" in the book of Revelation. Of course this applies to trafficking and slavery, but paying for embryos? Yes, this is certainly possible.
@@abhabh6896 and yet they do, so a good solution is to teach them how to have safe sex without going in depth. Forcing kids to give birth is more wrong in my own and many others opinion
I m a devout Orthodox Christian, a proud husband, but unfortunately a victim of stress and pollution and therefore I have issues reproducing via natural means. I feel IVF is a miracle coming from God. If God wouldn t want humanity to achieve this point, then this point wouldn t have been achieve. If me and my wife won't be able to concieve naturally, then we ll so IVF in a heartbeat. If God wants us to have a child, then IVF will be successful
The bottom line is that so many people commenting on this video have no idea about the pain involved with infertility, yet they’re comfortably able to pass judgement on a fellow Christian’s personal decisions. It’s shameful. Just what the evil one would want I’d expect.
I am Russian Orthodox and my husband and I tried to have a child for over 7 years. This year with God’s help and through IVF we were able to conceive our sweet baby Alexandra ❤ Such issues are delicate but what I have always loved about our Orhtodox faith is the understanding and practical nature of it. Only God is to judge what’s right or wrong in such delicate matters.
I think the point is how many new little babies die because they were not chosen (your brothers and sisters), however you are lucky that you were chosen to be here. Definitely would be a humbling experience coming into this earth that way.
@@apparitionappalachian4591 judge not lest you be judged. Only God has the authority to judge. No one knows anyone’s full story nor anyone’s heart and it’s unkind to speak in such a way about something you know nothing about.
@@zjeniya7prazdnikova “Do not judge according to appearance but judge with righteous judgment” and I’m not judging for pointing out that eugenics is used in IVF.
@@apparitionappalachian4591 it’s not up to me to decide if your words bring good or sew more sorrow into this world, let that be between God and yourself.
If your priest is not Fr Josiah then consult your parish priest if you're considering IVF. Despite my scepticism, our priest gave us a blessing to do IVF and we are blessed to have started a family in this way. This matter is not determined by this priests opinion.
Father I'd like some clarification. Of course conception is a gift and beautiful, and an act of love as you say halfway through. Yet simultaneously do we not each confess in paraklesis "in sin my mother bore me" and that the conception of Mary and Christ were the only sinless conceptions?
I was born through IVF to a normal Christian family, I am Christian. Following your reasoning, I would be an abomination unfit for life and my existence an anathema to my own faith. I thank God for granting me this life, through IVF, and I devote myself to Him.
@@user-xi3fn4iw5fyou are not a mistake. God willed that you should be here otherwise you would not have life. However, God has established a way in which babies should be brought about. Just as a child conceived outside a sacramental marriage is not a mistake, neither is a child conceived through IVF. God chose to bless the couple regardless of their disregard for God s order because God is good. That doesn’t make the act of fornication or the use of IVF licit, but the human created in both acts is still a person made in God’s image who is good, never a mistake, and always a blessing.
REAL KNOWLEDGE FROM A MOTHER WHO IS GIFTED ENOUGH TO TELL THE TRUTH: I became pregnant at the first try. Around 9 days after ovulation there suddenly was a soul with me. I was in bed and knew I wasn't alone anymore. I could talk to it and it told me it's in a female body, everything is medically fine. She did NOT want ultrasound. She knew exactly what it was and told me it would harm her energetically and physically. So I didn't do it. I had a homebirth. Her soul is awesome. She has so much wisdom 😮 I was in awe. Frankly I don't see a difference in IVF compared to normal conception and here why: the soul looks for the parents. She stays with the mom and makes sure she is in the right family. If not she will leave and let another soul enter the baby's body after birth when the baby takes its first breath. ❤ I'm against abortion though😢 please use birth control if you don't want children and just refrain from having Sex on ovulation. Why is that so hard? I have frozen some eggs and think about getting my 3rd baby with ivf. I'll be over 40 then
I dont agree. I've had numerous miscarriages and never felt a thing. Its like learning you didn't get a promotion you were up for...disappointing if you were counting on it but otherwise, meh. I didn't even feel the children I had were alive until they drew breath. Its the breath of life not the amorphous blob of possible life. Im certainly not holding a funeral for every Tampax just in case an egg got fertilized and didn't implant. On top of that it seems stupid and wasteful and pointless to have a so called life that nobody knows exists and dies unseen and unknown in your body 3 days after creation, what's the point in that? Or molar pregnancy is that alive, is it even human? Its a fertilized egg and sometimes has a "heartbeat" buts its a tumor made of nightmares
Hello Father, do you have any advice for people who feel oppressed by other peoples blessing and choose an ‘I’ll show them kind of attitude’ (instead of seeing others blessing as hopeful and evidence of God being with us) in order to motivate themselves to compete with others in an attitude of scarcity?
Father, I don't understand your position regarding an across the board denial of IVF ( I am neither pro nor con). However, if a husband and wife (not a homosexual couple, or single parent) can only have children by way of IVF, how is this wrong? How is there an absence of love solely because conception was not the product of intercourse? Does not God's continuing gift to humanity to endow us with the knowledge to uplift our station in life through medicine?
Mainly because the process of IVF involves fertilizing dozens and dozens of eggs, creating dozens of embryos, the vast majority of which end up being destroyed in order to produce one or two healthy ones. Those are human lives.
I think it is a gross exaggeration that dozens of harvested eggs actually produce dozens of embryos. Out of 13 eggs they managed to get from me, 3 embryos. Two boys and a girl. But that is enough.
4 місяці тому+2
Absolutely true. Each embryo is graded and tge parents choose. 😬@TheHappyBunny91
I have an Ivf baby on the way I might not have given it enough thought and prayer but I truly believe if I raise a beautiful God fearing child then it out weighs what moral hang ups I have
Am I any less of a real human? Father, I have been struggling terribly with accepting the fact I was born IVF. I get overtly jealous from time to time of my friends who had a stable normal upbringing.
@@NFS0038 basically you are saying that God's design was that he should not have been born. dude... also you have to be certain that infertility of his parents was part of God's plan and not caused by act of (evil or not) free will for example.
@@romeofernando4745 That isn't what I said, dont infer what isn't there. God does use infertility to teach people, but that doesn't mean He is the cause of it. The result is the same: you should repent and be humble in the face of God's design, and not try to countermand it.
@SILLY_BILLY_777 it is still incredibly difficult to cope with learning that the woman who brought me up isn't biologically related to me and I really am very lost at the moment. I don't know what to do
I respectfully disagree with a lot of the points in this reflection. Having a beautiful 5 year old from IVF transfer as well as currently 13 weeks pregnant with my remaining frozen embryo, I believe these are two wonderful miracles which definitely were Gods will to be here today. God is not removed from giving life in conception in any way. He is the Giver of Life, whether that’s naturally or with fertility treatment or assistance. My husband would not have had the blessing to be a father if it were not for this process. It was Gods will because otherwise it would not have happened. We are truly blessed to have found IVF.
@@BellaDevout Defending your family is always good; it’s doesn’t mean that every means of defending them is good. ... yet you would not deny people self-defence, but you would deny them children? IVF is problematic, but bringing life into this world is a miracle, one just could not do it without involving God. IVF or not.
@@bronicage5666 No one is attacking the parents choosing to resort to IVF. The metaphor doesn’t work. How is IVF self-defence against a threat? It’s a deliberate act that usually results in deaths, and it’s divorcing conception/childbirth from marriage.
@@BellaDevout what? :D I put them in the same theological category, I did not say that parents were attacked because of IVF. Defending your family can also result in death and sin. Yet defending your family is good. IVF may result in sin, yet parenthood and children are good. IVF is less certain to give you children than natural way, if God would not want you to have children you would not have them through IVF either.
Your baby is a wonderful soul and valuable as a human being. The way you conceived them is gravely sinful, an offense against God and the babies' siblings you killed, and you should repent
Science should service the dignity and God-given holiness of human life and person, and I believe that this is the point here. So yes, we don’t use unbiblical practices.However, there is a general tendency towards completely dismissing science, aka I don’t trust medicine only god, which is in fact a manifestation of ones egotism,not faith. A wise spiritual father in Greece used to say: it is blasphemy to have a painkiller in my table and ask god to directly cure my headache.
I’ve seen this argument likened to a man stuck in his roof because of a terrible flood. Boats passed him by offering help, but he refused because he was waiting for God to make the flood go away. It didn’t and he drowned. He asked God why He did not save him, and He said he sent the boats.
You are aware that IVF is not always successful and in the end if a pregnancy appears after a long and painful protocol and is still by the grace of God.
God gave us our mind to create and support life, in the love and wisdom of God's will. Science originates from "scientia", latin for "knowledge". When science is appropriated with the love of Christ, and God's law, science can reaffirm the sanctity of life, outside of the bond of physical union. Thus, the Mystery of Conception is blessed to those married couples: the holy family- mother and father, who otherwise may not experience the blessings of parenthood. However, it must be flesh of the mother and father- no one else. Some people are rendered barren, and we must accept such infertility as God's will. These are the times when husband and wife must adopt the spirit of Christian Charity, and adopt an orphan as their own child: such is the will of God. True science is separate from the perversions of the depraved "sexual revolution", and those questions posed in this post may be answered as such- Be aware of Satan's trappings. If Satan can infiltrate certain religious authorities, as seen in child abuse, and the normalization of the homosexual abomination in the fractured church, then Satan can easily infiltrate science, and misrepresent perversion as progression.
So what's to be said of us who were had via IVF. I don't know for sure but I am relatively certain that if not for the technology I would not exist. Because I might be the result of God's hand being forced. May my existence be considered unethical. Should I even be considering operating under the vision that I should not exist. I was happened with somewhat outside the confines of marriage. According to what's being inside above. If anyone's curious about the specific IVF. I'm pretty sure I was a needle I was injected into the egg that was still inside the womb.
Also don't take this is me being stand offish. I am here seeking more information and knowledge. As I pursued to try to get closer to The Jesus Christ.
These are things you should not worry about. You go to Christ who "makes all things new" all the time. That's all that matters here! You are loved by God.
Well sorry, but I don’t understand why a married Orthodox couple wouldn’t consider this option with careful thought and consideration. God has endowed doctors with knowledge, and if this knowledge is used responsibly (i.e., not to assist 'homosexual couples' or single parents), then why not? Why not help loving, caring, Orthodox people have children? Doesn’t God work in every conception? If He didn’t intend for it to happen, He wouldn’t allow it. If God's providence has allowed me to face illness for my humility and salvation, does that mean seeking a cure is against God's will? Or should I simply accept my illness and leave it in God's hands? Fertility issues can also be viewed as a kind of illness. If that was you would you really choose not to explore all help that you can get (again, with great care, prayer, consideration, and making sure no conceived babies die in the process), and simply let your life pass without children?
So, you are saying that God "doesn't want" a child conceived through IVF to be born, even though it was His will for that child to be conceived, as He assisted in it? Is the life of such a child not as worthy as one conceived naturally? Are you suggesting that such a child didn't come into this world by the will of the Almighty? "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered." (Mt. 10-29:30) And yes, I am cradle Orthodox. But it seems like Latins often have confusion about how God's will works.
@@БратБрат-с5н the morality of the act of conception tells us nothing about the dignity of the child. God is the creator; he chooses who is born, whether that’s through IVF or naturally. God takes every evil and uses it for good.
Nothing is evil about using medicine to treat a condition (such as infertility), or when a child is born to loving parents. Keep that in mind the next time you visit a doctor or take medication. For those who oppose IVF and deem it immoral, it’s no different from treating any other illness with medical intervention. The alternative in both cases is the same: to surrender entirely to the will of God.
So bottom line, putting aside all the misuse cases/scenarios (of which there are many) can an Orthodox Christian couple who are having trouble conceiving receive this assistance? Done as prayerfully as possible, one embryo at a time? How do you know that this ability is not a gift from God, all he had to do is make IVF not work (because of the creative nature of the act, only he has the first and last word on it). I would take caution in proporting to completely understand God's mind on this.
My stance on this is God ordained sex for two purposes: bonding and reproduction. Reproduction is a fruit of sex and sex alone, as Fr. Josiah articulated in this reflection. If a couple can not conceive, that is God's will. All children are miracles, again, as Fr. Josiah articulated. Contraceptives, and similarly IVF, succeeding is solely the decision of God in His vast providence and will. So yes, He may decide for IVF to bear a child, but this is not a Christian path. He also allowed Satan to test Job, this does not mean Job should've sought the testing himself. God's sovereignty is God's alone, we have His sacred Word and Tradition.
@@WSlopeAggiewhy is infertility the only malfunction of the body that we are forced to accept as God's will? If you get cancer is that not God's will? Yet somehow we can go get treatment for it. If your arm gets cut off that's God will, but you can take your arm to the doctor and have them try to sew it back on. But infertility, no, you just have to accept that and do nothing about it.
@@Z3r0Strife Yeh I think he has missed the nuance. It is permitted to have sex with your wife and have sperm go into her when she is pregnant there is zero chance of making a baby. So his position is incosistent and not nuanced enough.
The sin alone of having your husband masturbate into a cup to collect sperm probably wouldn’t be blessed by your priest… I know it wasn’t blessed for a couple in our parish struggling with infertility.
This ongoing manipulation of human Life is all about lack of respect of the will of God and lack of Faith. Don't manipulate anymore! Good that we celebrate natural conception !❤
God wants more souls to save at the end of time. God only helps those who help themselves. Human effort and prayer and focus and God's grace gave us IVF. It is the reason my stepsister is here. Medicine is the only reason I could speak God's name. The idea that God is apart from healing and fertility is dogmatic and immature.
@@skeleton1765 God is Life. God is healing. It is in God we must put our Trust, not in medicine. Medicine can not create Life. Only God can create Life. It does not mean we shall not use medicine, but we should not worship it or use it against God's Word. Medicine is being worshipped today and it makes people sick. The symbol of medicine is the snake, because the snake can intoxicate you and then the snake venom can be used to heal you from the snake's intoxication. That is why they snake is often depicted as a circle, biting it's own tail. It is a vicious circle. You praise medicine and say it made it possible for you to pronounce God's Word. Your words already show you put medicine above God. Yet, it was God who created your mouth and your voice AND your healing. Your Creator deserves Your praise.
There is nothing in the Canons nor our Creed that negates the medical miracles of IVF much as it doesn’t prohibit organ transplants either. This is your human interpretation.
Hi Father, I have a question. When you spoke about conception being a 'miracle', I wondered what it means if God allows us to create these miracles? In a sense, he allows us the power to perform these miracles. My first question is 'what does it mean that God allows us to perform these miracles?' The most obvious response to this idea is that miracles and sin are separate concepts. Something normally miraculous performed under the wrong context can qualitatively change the thing. For example, if we replace the word 'miracle' with 'holy' then sex is an obvious example of this reasoning. Sex is holy and sacred if performed under the right set of internal and external circumstances, but if performed outside these bounds is sinful and unholy. However, the difference between 'holy' and 'miracle' is found in the definition of what a miracle is. A miracle is an event that (if a real miracle, and not a false miracle) is good, it is from God. Therefore, even in the case of IVF, the life that comes forth and blooms from it is still a miracle. It is still good. My second question; 'does this mean that IVF is sinful for the parent but God mercifully spares the new life the extra burden of the parent's sin?' My third question comes from my simultaneous interests in my religion (I'm a non-denominational Christian, considering Orthodoxy) and my career in Technology. At what point is the technology I use (with my intent, knowledge and free will) an extension of myself morally. For example, if IVF became advanced enough to be portable and done at home (let's say between a man and a woman), and after conception the woman gestated otherwise normally, would there be openness to the technology? This seems like an important question because I have no doubt until it's simply a matter of time before this can be done. I would like to add a few final points to contextualise the question. 1) if I were to commit a crime with a shovel, that shovel would be considered an extension of me in that crime. 2) if I stole people's property online without physically taking anything, my actions would be considered the key to judging the end result. It would not matter that there were a sequence of technological events in between my physical actions and the crime. Therefore my question is, why is technology not measured similarly here? I would also like to add that the above above argument for technology does not apply to contraception because the act of deciding on the contraception is the key event, it does not matter what sort of contraceptive technology (or technique) then follows. This is actually consistent with the reasoning about technology in the context of a crime. So restating my third question again, why is IVF seemingly treated inconsistently? Thank you father
What are your thoughts on single women adopting embryos and becoming mothers that way? It is depriving them of a father but it also allows them to come into this world. I'm truly conflicted about this. The Lord has not brought me a husband and has had me care for family and live on the mission field in east Africa for most of my 20's and early 30's. At 37, I feel I am at a crossroads and needing to decide if I will pursue embryo adoption or remain as I am. There is no Orthodox church in the country which I am serving, so I would greatly appreciate your insight.
@@NFS0038 single motherhood is pretty bad yes, and yet a child raised by a single mother would rather exist than not. or are you want to present to me an antinatalist argument about suffering=therefore do not have children.
@@bronicage5666 the child doesn't exist until conception. So until the mother conceives, this child is just an idea, not a real soul. In the case of existing embryos from IVF, we can have discernment about the circumstances in which they are raised. Should we allow homosexuals access to IVF embryo children for the same reason? I think not.
Thank you! And I say this in love. Republicans stance on this topic is costing them votes. It impacted the last election, and it may very well decide this one. I think it's very possible this may be comment on politics in general. Personally, I don't care. These acts are an abomination. You follow God, or you follow the world.
My Protestant aunt and uncle recently "had" a child through IVF. With a donor egg and donor sperm. This is a major issue in even the Christian world, and we as Orthodox Christians must be more commandeering on this subject. We can not simply stand idly by as fellow believers demolish the sacred intent of marriage and sex.
The vast majority of IVF cases are married couples who cannot conceive. Using our knowledge and God-created minds to remedy this should be celebrated. That goes for any modern medicine that has both extended lifetimes and given people second chances at life.
With respect, this is incorrect. I know from having subfertility for many many years. IVF has made drs working in this field, very lazy. Most drs don't even do the basics to check the couple- mostly because ivf is big $$. Man interferes in the process with IVF and its Godc who gives life. I battled infertility 10 years and we overcame it with God and God ethical drs who DID NOT do ivf
Well done for sidestepping all of the many arguments Father gave and simply declaring the opposite conclusion based on some nebulous feel-good statement.
IVF provides an opportunity to develop insight into the miracle of life. After all, God doesn’t have a problem with 20-40% of fertilized eggs being discarded in a regular woman’s menstrual cycle. The control freaks must step aside and let God work with the scientists.
@@dannelle17 no I don’t care anymore God didn’t provide when I needed I guess he wanted to protect me from ever experiencing a hug which means it’s time for me to do the next best thing heroln 😊 By the time I’m done with this flesh he won’t recognize me on judgment day
@@nexstbob6911 Oh I am so deeply sorry to hear that, sweet friend. I know it can feel like we’re all alone at times. I love you and God loves you and He’s always there even when you can’t feel Him. I’ve added you to my prayer list and really hope you can find some peace in this world. Everyone deserves that ❤️🩹
Haven't watched the video but yes IVF is immoral. For one, forming a human being in a petri dish does not sit right with me, and two, donating sperm/eggs is wrong.
I guess I would ask what if conceiving the conventional way would be highly dangerous to the Mother (ie a guaranteed death) which is certainly possible. 😊
@frenne_dilley It's not wrong because it makes me uncomfortable, it's wrong because we are not designed to be conceived artificially in a petri dish, it is in a way playing God.
@RonanAquilius Then I would suggest to you that you break your phone and stop useing the internet don’t drive a car don’t fly a plane. Not where cloths not made out of wool and natural ingredients such as cotton. Stop working at a factory and grow your own food. Stop eating just about every thing sold at super markets because most these things are artificial. Not goto doctors or use medicine when you get sick. Your argument is folly. I’m every way. You might as will live as an Amish. I’ll enjoy my technology and the fruits it bears. While you rub yo sticks and stones together. For enjoyment. Calm on man. It’s not about what you feel. What you feel is wrong. Trying to decide for me what I should do with my DNA my genetics my choice in a world full of choices. Give me a break.
From my observation, American Orthodox are much more judgmental than Russian Orthodox regarding IVF. Not saying it is right or wrong, just an observation.
There isnt any truth to that generalization. Orthodoxy is not nationalistic. There are many saints across the Globe that have spoken of the dangers of IVF,Saint Porphyrios happens to be one of them.
I lost our first baby at 4 1/2 months. It had stopped living and i had to have a procedure to take it out and that hurt me so much i was depressed for a long time. After that every time i was pregnant we went to a priest for a blessing. It was the only way for me to feel like these pregancies would carry to the end. And they did. Thanks to God!
@@stavroulaki1000 That's hard sorry to hear that.That sounds like a pain that won't ever go away.❤️
Lots of Loves Mami
You will be with your child in Heaven an eternity!!!
I agree with the idea that children should ideally be brought into a natural family setting with both a mother and a father. However, I believe that even if conception occurs through methods like IVF, it is ultimately God's will that determines whether a child is born. No matter how many cycles of IVF are attempted, if it is not God's plan, the child will not come into being. It is only by God's will that a child is born, regardless of the process involved.
Do you really think that everything that happens in this world is from God?
@@TheWilDOn31are you sure you're asking the right question?
That's like saying I'm only a murderer if God allows me to be.
My husband and I suffered secondary infertility after our first child and it was a great sorrow for us to have six miscarriages, but praise the Lord, he used it to draw us closer to the one true faith. As we began to believe in Him, He added one more child to our family. But this child was soon followed by three more miscarriages until we were crowned. Since our crowning on St Stephen's Day in 2022 and thanks to the intercessions of St Stylianos, St Anna and the Theotokos we have had no miscarriages, one more beautiful child, and another on the way! I became an expert in fertility along the way and counsel other couples on how to improve their chances through practical measures, but i never forget the power of faith, hope, and prayer because only He opens our wombs.
Is one of the practical measures to reverse infertility to heal the digestive system, ravaged by modern industrialized diet and also to bring back nutrient rich animal fats in the diet? That's my understanding, at least.
@@GospodiPomilui yes, that's a big part of it for many couples.
Glory be to God - what an amazing testimony 💞
Glory to God! What an incredible story
Our story is similar in a lot of ways, the loss of our first child at 40 weeks on August 15th, 2021 was what ultimately led us to Orthodoxy (I had no idea that date held any significance, what an unexpected comfort in the midst of tragedy). We were blessed with another child 20 months later, who was baptized in the same horse trough as his father (I was chrismated). In the year it took before we conceived our rainbow baby I had a lot of free time so I did extensive research on fertility, which I've been able to share with many of my friends. There are so many aspects of modern life that make conception so difficult! Knowledge about how to improve fertility is so needed
This is because you are not supposed to be obsessed with having a baby. Allow God to give it freely to you or not. Don't worry. Babys are not there to fulfil your personal interests. Allow God to act freely in your Life. That is called Faith.
This was heavy but had to be heard.Thanks for sharing this Fr. Josiah.
We've been infertile for 15 years and will continue to entrust it to God and His will. We will NEVER do IVF. We only want the child He would have for us or none at all. Lord have mercy. 🙏🏻💜☦️
May God Bless you with a child some day according to His will 🙏❤
Good for you. You make your choice for yourself. But your opinion doesn’t matter to other people who want kids
Blessings dear father. Thank you for bringing light to this often ignored issue.
So true
Amen ♥️
Thank you for your heartfelt doctrinal perspective on the IVF issue...love your Godly explanations.
Buy Fr. Josiah's book on Marriage - "Enduring Love: Laying Christian Foundations for Marriage" - Link in description!
Do you belive abortion is a sin?
@@cindyeyre8483 did you watch the video?
Thank you father for explaining the IVF topic so clearly. We must know that conceiving a child is god’s own work with a man and a woman’s cooperation. We must seek and pray to god to know his will before seeking our own will!
Dear father, thank you so much for such salvific information. If only more voices within the church would inform and speak out!
May God give you many blessed years!
I always respect and listen to what you say. I don't always agree, but I respect. Thank you for your message and may God bless you and yours.
This is what God is saying. You don't have a difference of opinion with God, because these are life's truths, not opinions..
You can do as you wish, but you just won't be well..
Until you listen to God, you won't know just how well you can live actually..
Interestingly the Russian Orthodox Church updated their stance on IVF several years ago saying that the married couple should consult with their priest, but in general IVF is permitted between a husband and wife using their own sperm and eggs as long as only one or two embryos are created and used at a time so there are no excess embryos to discard.
I did not know this, and I generally agree. Do you have a link, or, resource you could point me to?
@@George-ur8ow I don't know if the link will work but here is the title. Just search for this -> Russian Church reexamining stance on IVF in light of medical advances
@@George-ur8ow here's another to search for -> Orthodox Perspectives on In Vitro Fertilization in Russia
@@snowps1 I believe in Italy they have strict laws on IVF, or at least they did at one time, not sure if it's changed: you can only create up to 3 at a time and they must all be transferred at the same time in a fresh (not frozen) cycle. Many healthy embryos don't survive thawing so a fresh cycle gives them the best chance
The same with the Cyprus orthodox church
I got a job opportunity to be in this industry. Although I desperately need a job to survive, I've been praying about it. My Spirit knew this is a Satanic business. God answered my prayer once again through your video. Thank you Father Josiah.
How can you be against IVF? It is giving rise to a family. It is giving rise to new souls. God is on the side of life. Life on earth. I see it as the answers to prayers. Better Christians than us would have loved for the opportunity to use IVF.
Thank you Father for addressing this difficult topic that is a source of strong feelings for so many (understandably!)
A fascinating presentation, bringing up aspects I'd not throught about.
Very edifying. Thank you.
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO ITS NEEDED!!!
I decided not to "push" my own agenda, because I just didn't feel right about IVF. My husband and I now help support 92 children whose fathers were soldiers killed in war by financially assisting their mothers or extended family to care for them. I'm thankful God and our church gave us that opportunity, plus nieces and nephews to love.
What a mighty sacrifice and what a mighty blessing. Thank you
@@ZachareyQuintana-qi4td thank you
God bless you for your righteousness.
Im glad you found a way to reconcile. Hard choices.
Im glad you found a way to keep children in your life. Christmas is brutal without them around.
That's awesome 👌 👏
Thank you once again father for the truth!!
My wife and I used a form of IVF in china after 3 years of unsuccessful conception. I understand there are some moral issues at hand with some of these practices which one needs to take into account, especially for example surrogacy where a child can risk developing attachment disorders.
We prayed with our church leader and conceived a baby girl through our procedure.
✝️ ХРИСТОС ВОСКРЕСЕ ✝
БОГ С НАМИ ПРОТИВ ЗЛА И ИСКУШЕНИЙ ✝🙏⛪👩❤️👨💍👼🕊
Ἀληθῶς Aνέστη! ☦
Ваистину Воскресе
I am currwntly studying to be an embryologist. I want to work in IVF to help people concieve. That is my primary goal.
Here in Serbia we have a big problem with infertility and the state invested a lot into IVF in an attempt to solve this problem.
I have had a big dilemma about my future work because of the issues you have mentioned Father. I have spoken to my own priest about it in passing but intend to have deeper conversations about it. I do not wish to do things against God's will, and I do believe it is His will for me to at least study this subject.
I hope in time to understand His plan for me.
Finding out why people are infertile (epigenetics, diets, pharmacological, etc) could be the goal instead of solving the symptom.
@@isawamoose It is one of my goals, yes. Right now that doesn't seem to be profitable for the state so they are shoving money into IVF to achieve a similar result.
Adoption, as an alternative to conception IVF or otherwise, is very hard here, despite people wanting to adopt a child and being excellent parents, the system makes it harder.
@@DayvMagnimagicYour first paragraph should tell you everything you need to know.
Finding out why people have problems is only helpful in the academics. It’s useless in real life without a solution tied to it.
Early modern medicine wasn’t helpful because people knew what you were dying of but had no way to help you. What patient would take comfort in this?
You have, I would hope, every right to walk away un-harassed and un-targeted if you found a line you could not cross.
@@abcdefghij337 It's not only in academics. In practice you have first hand experience in this. And I will do my best to help as best I can.
I even spoke to my priest and he said not to be anxious about it, if my intentions are good. He gave me his blessing.
I will not fail him.
Also the clinic has a chapel in it so...
Before embarking on our IVF journey my husband and I spoke to our priest who went to the Arch Bishop to gain advice for us. Only with their consent did we commence IVF and always used only our own egg and sperm ( no third party) and only created 3 embryos ( babies) per fresh cycle as I would try to bring every life to a full term pregnancy and not destroy and life. We were only blessed with one beautiful child and after miscarrying my last pregnancy decided our family was complete. Our Priest advised us that God gave man the intelligence to provide IVF so as long as we had complete respect for life and our marital vows we could participate in IVF.
Thank you for sharing this.
So you destroyed the other 2 human lives?
@@Nomadestra1776 They are all implanted, so if God wanted her to have triplets, it would work that way. You should not be so judgemental. Her archbishop gave his blessing.
@OrthodoxInquirer That's not how IVF works. And by the way, you're being judgemental. There's nothing wrong with judging as long as you judge people righteously by God's laws. Without judgment, there is no society, no law.
Also, that's not how IVF works. It's not a 100% success rate, so the human embryos that don't take by the mother end up getting destroyed. Sometimes, it can be ten to 20. Those are all viable human lives. Do some more research on it.
@OrthodoxInquirer That's not how IVF works. If God intended it to work like that, doctors would not have to implant an exorbitant amount of embryos just so one would take. The fact is those are human lives being destroyed in the process. And what does judgemental mean to you? You're being judgemental to me. God tells us to judge each other righteously. That's why we have laws, and you go to prison for breaking laws.
Thank you for speaking the truth so clearly and beautifully. I morn the babies. I’m Unintentionally childless.
🫂
give me a try i can fix that real quick :)
@@chadvagbuster6580lust
Don’t worry- father Josiah has another video condemning you
Outstanding! Thank you Father. So many aspects I had never considered regarding IVF. Indeed our way is different from the world’s way.
Much needed commentary.
Stepping outside God's procreative design reminds us of Abraham and Sarah, who also did not trust God's promise and design to step outside their own marital union and function to find a different path toward the promise. Clearly, the sexual revolution in the West has been designed to take control of that which belongs to God and His design. Lord have mercy.
I feel like that’s different. They were specifically told to wait BY GOD bc he had a huge plan for them (how amazing would it be to have that direct of a line!) and raped Hagar anyway. Layers to that one.
Lord have mercy 🙏🏽
Thank you father ❤
Thank you for speaking about this issue.
Gods way is the best. There's way too many problems when we choose science over faith in God.
True statement!
Ok buddy next time u get a carcinoma dont go to the doc 😊
Peace be with you.
It would be asinine to suggest that God has not created scientist or ordained certain people to save human lives against evil (death). IVF which discards embryos seems insane. IVF which doesn’t seems like a gift from God. Regardless, the question is moreso does the federal government have a right to speak on this matter? I don’t think so.
@@AnaHernandez-of2sf and what if they can't have kids naturally.
loved the sweetness of the church’s celebration of conception
thank you for explaining the church's view on this complex issue!
Profound and insightful commentary on the moral ramifications on the IVF. Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is His reward (Ps.127:3).
In 27 years as a 'revert' I have never heard a priest speak on these complex issues from the pulpit or in parish educationals. I'm thankful for your teaching Fr Josiah, but I'm afraid the secular Western society has passed us by on most questions of IVF and surrogacy. I pray that the Orthodox message permeates the thickened hearts of some in modern society. We may have to weep for America and comfort those struggling with these questions and keep our eyes on Our Lord.☦️
Thank you so much for this video. From what I understand, the issue is with those abusing this medical intervention. IVF in its early days was for married couples with infertility. Now, it seems anyone with means that go for it in whatever way seems right in their eyes .
Me and my wife were trying to have children for 10 years and we have been together for 18 years (since we were teenagers). We are 100% healthy and fertile we just couldn’t for some strange reason.
I never lost hope and I prayed to God to eventually have children and then through IVF my son was born this year on Orthodox Easter.
Not to long ago we baptized him. IVF is not a 100% to work. I cannot see how it can work without God being involved. I view my son as a miracle from God. There is not a week goes by that I am not saying to my wife “We have a son! It is incredible” and it’s not a day goes by without me thanking God for this incredible gift.
Creating a life is a miracle and I don’t think that God is any less involved in IVF than in natural way.
Also we got 2 embryo left, and yes we will be using them. It’s up to God if it will work out or not.
Good can use all evil for his good purposes. That doesn’t mean we should pursue evil.
@@fujikokun imagine saying that him being a father and having a son is evil
@@bronicage5666 That's not what he said, you twist words in these comments to manipulate emotions and distract from the moral problems presented.
@@CA-jz9bm Perfectly said, we cannot force life on God, he’s the only one who can give it.
@bronicage5666
Being a father isn’t evil. The means of becoming a father can be evil. For example, a man could decide he wants a child, but he has no women who are interested. So he decides to kidnap and rape one to achieve his goal. Obviously the means of achieving his fatherhood status is a work of evil, but God in His providence can do good even if we sin. Simply allowing fatherhood to outweigh the means of achieving it is going to create many problems.
Dear Father Josiah I live in an Orthodox traditional environment where they teach us that is MUST to get married and have children. It is big shame if this goal is not met. Couples without children are very often silently pushed on the side from the community. Because of this pressure me and my wife decided to go on IVF. May God have mercy on our sinful souls. I think this is also one very important topic the church should discuss. Glory to God☦️🙏🏻
I pray that all will go well for you.
Why do you give in when other people put pressure on you ??
Start thinking for yourself !!!!
BTW I never heard from an orthodox community to tell a couple they need to have a child .
Anyway, I hope you will be ok with the decision you made
Your community is definitely in the wrong, and by all appearances not embodying true Orthodox faith where everyone is valued as equal and no shunning should exist regardless of happenstance...
@@KhABCDLeoeven father Josiah has many videos where he praises having lots of children and even though he does not directly shuns out those who do not have kids and I am sure he is well intended, his narrative can be a direct push for others to keep asking questions about kids and have different attitudes about those who have a lot of children, and make assumptions about those who have none. I heard a lot of priests saying how kids are the purpose of life and marriage, in a church full of people, therefore rendering a lot of people purposeless. Yes, you can think for yourself but In the end pain comes from the heart not from the brain. I do not fully expect someone who has 10 kids to have full empathy for someone who has none, but I expect that if someone goes to church and is on channels like these ones, his heart is in the right place and should not be reminded with every chance of their biological failure. For those not religious/orthodox, I doubt these videos will do anything rather than enlarging the divide into an already split apart society
@@dianaalexa8020Sounds like you’re making a lot of assumptions
14:00 another person affected by this process is the child itself which you lightly spoke on. The child cannot be expected to grow up in a traditional household and upbringing without a father and a mother. The child is also likely subject to bullying in a crucial time in their lives when making lasting friendships is important for development. What will happen when they are of age to have their own children? Will the cycle repeat?
This! is really quite frightening. Especially when you look at the confusion children already have today.
I was conceived out of a marriage, however it was an abusive one and led to divorce shortly after my birth. I have had to bear the consequences of that divorce since then, and it has torn me and my family apart even more. So yes, I must emphatically agree. There is no place for unbiblical conception, and parents must be VERY discerning when choosing who they conceive with.
@@ltbingus well said!
And what about the attachment disorders of a person who has experienced removal from birth mother and in some cases whole families through surrogacy. Lord have mercy on the children.
You mean men should stop r@ping women, right? You do realize that women are r@ped, so they didn’t have the privilege of “choosing who they procreate with.”
Thank you for speaking on this very contentious topic. I'm not catholic. Though I would consider myself an increasingly conservative protestant. With age, im seeing things more and more through the Father's eyes. The world continues to devolve into chaos and madness, and His word becomes more obviously right. So I'll admit I don't share all your views exactly in regards to religious details. But I absolutely support your stance on IVF, and the sanctity of marriage and conception. I appreciate you taking the time and care to so lovingly explain the dangers and complexities of this issue. I used to think IVF seemed pretty harmless, and even felt it would be cruel to deny couples the chance to have a baby in that way. But I have matured to realize it's not so simple, and there's a lot of challenges that even the most moral approach can't solve. Thank you, again. God bless.
Thank you for opening our eyes 🙏
You mean brainwashed
@azurbanspacellc2871 *hugs*
I thank you father !!!!!
Great video and work. RESPECT!!!
Thank you father
Thank you for this video, Father!
EXCELLENT VIDEO thank you, Father Josiah....SO many considerations....I am so against IVF as well
yes!! I’m not Orthodox, I guess I’m “evangelical” but I 💯 agree with everything you said!
IVF is not something Christians should pursue nor support. We are not entitled to have children - children are a blessing from God when He deems it best to give. I’ll say it again - we are not entitled to have children.
You said it well when you said God is sovereign over fertility, giving and withholding blessing when He sees fit.” Amen!! It is not up to us.
I hope and pray many see this video, and truly seek God’s heart regarding conception, childbirth, and childrearing.
This is a great reflection!
Before going though also this try to find out what Porphyrios of Kafsokalyvia said about IVF.
These saints have helped many parents conceive: St. Nektarios and St. Simeon (Hilandar monastery - Mt. Athos), with certain prayers, oil and grape, fasting and confession - many parents who could not conceive even with all the scince ended up conceiving children.
The whole process helps them come closer to God and their child grows in faith as well.
Somebody else here mentioned st Porphyrios. Where can I find what he taught?
@@markeedeep I will try to find it.
Not only is this immoral, it works confusion. Some folks we know told us how their daughter had a baby this way (in her late 40s). The embryo was conceived about 10 years before they purchased it, making their new child literally the same age as their real child, even tho' it was born several years later by this surrogate mother. They then met the real father and will allow him to see the child he contributed to in a petri dish (probably for $$). Later they plan to tell this little person about its true origins! How grievous for those who learn they were conceived scientifically and sold to be strangers' children! How many of them may run into their own brother or sister in life, and who knows what might happen then, if they should "fall in love" with their own sibling unwittingly, since there are countless of these embryos being sold! What crazy things humans are doing messing with life like this. They told us of another woman who had twins this way. Her twins' embryos had been "on ice" (they are preserved with some type of gas) for nearly 30 years, therefore making them close to the age of the woman (surrogate mother), and yet were her children! We were blown away to learn of these goings on! It made us sick.
We too had many miscarriages, but when we talked to the Dr about fertilization procedures, we couldn't do it. God gave us four healthy sons, and we just had our 14th grandchild in August, and the 15th is on the way. God knows what He is doing; His will is best and always for our good! We can never trust Him too much! ☦Glory to Thee, our God, Glory to Thee!
Adopted children also run the risks of running into their siblings and falling in love with them. Are you against adoption too for this reason?
This post is hilarious 😂
One of my favorite Mexican married couple to talk with are two people who have been life long infertile. I talked with Arturo who told me, “We tried many times to have children, but for whatever reason God decided it wasn’t for us.” I love coming over to their house to visit, outside of being enjoyable people to visit, is to serve as a reminder the primary purpose of marriage is preserving chastity. Two very devout Roman Catholics that I pray will become Orthodox Christians someday.
Some health advice, if you’re having trouble conceiving. There is a nine out of ten chance the wife has a vitamin D deficiency. Get more sunlight, eat more vitamin D rich foods, or take supplements.
They're dogmatic. IVF is the answer to all the millions of prayers sent up by childless couples.
I really enjoy how thorough you go into the explanations of these issues. I do have a question unrelated to the ivf. I’m in my early 20s and I see how America is turning to a place I may not want to raise a family in. What are the moral implications of jumping ship so to speak? That is moving to a different country. One the one hand it seems reasonable the other like I am abandoning my home when I could be trying to change it. Thank you for any guidance father and God bless you.
The moral implications of jumping ship: You can only run so far and for so long. There are no places you can hide that the roach-like horde cannot follow.
I have 3 yr old twins via IVF. I prayed to Saint Mary to please give me her blessing to be more like her. We tried to conceive for 9 years. We finally were able to afford the IVF. They are here through God's grace and blessing. They are baptized and we are raising them to adore God. I do have 5 embryos in cryo. Im about to be 38 years old. I found out about the church's position on IVF after going through with it. I feel so much conflict about my embryos. I wish I could have them all. I will try, in faith, to give all of them a chance to be born because of what so many priests such as yourself have said about the immortality of IVF. God willing, we can have all of our babies be born someday.
This guy brings up many good points about the efficacies of IVF outside of wedlock and same-sex marriages. I would wholeheartedly agree with those. I would even agree with his point on surrogacy, but for those who are trying,within the confines of marriage and plan to use all their eggs, I still don’t see a moral issue. We can fertilize the egg all we want outside of the womb, but the womb has to accept the egg and that can only happen with God‘s will. just because we implant does not automatically mean pregnancy. I think that that is missed and must be considered
@@kburr44 Exactly!
God's will is not just a probability for the rejection of implanted eggs. That's conflating causes with effects.
I agree as well. I think my primary concern is really whether or not every embryo that is fertilized, is provided the opportunity to be born. Not that they all will, often they don't, but the idea of leaving some frozen forever rubs me the wrong way.
@@WarloyJenkinsthis 💯 %
@@WarloyJenkinsI think what you’re saying is the biggest crux of the problem. IVF is so expensive most people can’t even afford to do multiple rounds to use all the embryos collected. The problem is aquring enough eggs to be statistically viable and not so much that we’re wasting life. That can only be “solved” through prayer and being willing financially and spiritually to make every effort to utilize all of your eggs regardless of outcome
Even if we were to completely stop the idf today, what do we do with what they have in the freezers right now? I don’t know a good answer.
What a brave new world.
I appreciate the points raised that there are ethical concerns and the potential for abuse which should be carefully considered.
However, the line of reasoning that infertility treatment automatically removes god from the equation gives me pause. If we accept the premise that to do anything more than pray for a divine miracle is taking things out of god's hands, doesn't it then follow that virtually all medical treatment would be the same?
For instance, someone with an infection who takes medication rather than letting it run its course and trusting in god must be no different?
I would reject this argument, and say, like many have, that the discovery of medicines like penicillin were gifts god had a hand in, and reasons to be thankful.
So I pose this question: assuming safeguards were enacted to deal with the ethical concerns raised, no "spare" embryos, only performed on a married husband and wife, etc. Does a theological issue still present?
Yes. Because I know a married couple that did IVF and allowed only 4 embryos to be created for this very reason. One of those embryos fell off the petrie dish in the process of being implanted into the wife. The other 3 did not survive even though they were placed into the wife’s womb. Man forced God’s hand in creating those little lives, and they died because the womb was inhospitable for whatever reason. Man is responsible for the deaths of those babies.
This video brings up many thoughts and considerations, namely, for me, it leads to the following question: To what extent should the same standards and applications extend to the use of western advanced medicine when consideting end of-life care?
To what extent do we "go over and above" in an effort to prolong our own lives, clashing with that of the Lord's will in our lives. Might it also be detrimental to NOT take those adcanced medical steps, especially if, for instance there are child dependents?
No easy answers when balancing our own individual Will, with that of God's. Each individual circumstance and case brings with it it's own unique individual considerations; painting with a "broad brush" can lead to a disfigured mess, and often does (not saying that Father has done that here; but that we should be cautious and to the extent reasonably possible, refrain from doing so ourselves)
With Joachim and Anna they had Little Mary when Anna was 70 years old St.Mary eas a miracle baby herself.
All babies are miracles. Even IVF babies. We can talk about whether IVF is moral or not, but you can't deny that all babies conceived in any way are still miracles.
@@snowps1 Yes you are right 💯❤️
It’s crazy to me that people refuse to see how wrong it is to pay a surrogate to carry a child for you! A child is a blessing not a commodity. Humans are not a commodity. Also, beyond the doctors being involved, don’t forget the faceless people billing this procedure.
It brings to mind "the buying and selling of souls" in the book of Revelation. Of course this applies to trafficking and slavery, but paying for embryos? Yes, this is certainly possible.
I’m glad Catholic and orthodox can agree on this.
I’m sure Catholics and othodox use IVF as much everyone else
Deleting undesirable babies is just wrong!😢
It’s evil!!
especially since you have multiple, multiple other less unethical methods to prevent that and you can... you know... abstain.....
@@abhabh6896this guy is a good speaker but you can go tell that to the uneducated teens that get pregnant due to abstinence only education
@FoxEmblem01 teens shouldn't even have sex
@@abhabh6896 and yet they do, so a good solution is to teach them how to have safe sex without going in depth. Forcing kids to give birth is more wrong in my own and many others opinion
I m a devout Orthodox Christian, a proud husband, but unfortunately a victim of stress and pollution and therefore I have issues reproducing via natural means. I feel IVF is a miracle coming from God. If God wouldn t want humanity to achieve this point, then this point wouldn t have been achieve.
If me and my wife won't be able to concieve naturally, then we ll so IVF in a heartbeat. If God wants us to have a child, then IVF will be successful
The bottom line is that so many people commenting on this video have no idea about the pain involved with infertility, yet they’re comfortably able to pass judgement on a fellow Christian’s personal decisions. It’s shameful. Just what the evil one would want I’d expect.
I wouldn’t be here without IVF. I am extremely grateful. God Bless you all 🙏🏼
I am Russian Orthodox and my husband and I tried to have a child for over 7 years. This year with God’s help and through IVF we were able to conceive our sweet baby Alexandra ❤ Such issues are delicate but what I have always loved about our Orhtodox faith is the understanding and practical nature of it. Only God is to judge what’s right or wrong in such delicate matters.
I think the point is how many new little babies die because they were not chosen (your brothers and sisters), however you are lucky that you were chosen to be here. Definitely would be a humbling experience coming into this earth that way.
@@apparitionappalachian4591 judge not lest you be judged. Only God has the authority to judge. No one knows anyone’s full story nor anyone’s heart and it’s unkind to speak in such a way about something you know nothing about.
@@zjeniya7prazdnikova “Do not judge according to appearance but judge with righteous judgment”
and I’m not judging for pointing out that eugenics is used in IVF.
@@apparitionappalachian4591 it’s not up to me to decide if your words bring good or sew more sorrow into this world, let that be between God and yourself.
If your priest is not Fr Josiah then consult your parish priest if you're considering IVF. Despite my scepticism, our priest gave us a blessing to do IVF and we are blessed to have started a family in this way. This matter is not determined by this priests opinion.
Or just do IVF if that’s what you want. Better to ask forgiveness then ask permission. You can always confess after the baby is baptized
Father I'd like some clarification. Of course conception is a gift and beautiful, and an act of love as you say halfway through. Yet simultaneously do we not each confess in paraklesis "in sin my mother bore me" and that the conception of Mary and Christ were the only sinless conceptions?
Orthodox are not Franco Latin Papist.
So many people in the comments clearly didn’t WATCH the video…..
I was born through IVF to a normal Christian family, I am Christian. Following your reasoning, I would be an abomination unfit for life and my existence an anathema to my own faith.
I thank God for granting me this life, through IVF, and I devote myself to Him.
Even though you are not from IVF ... Father says to the families not to the ones coming through IVF ... better to confess
@antenehgetnet9991 I'm not a mistake my parents should apologise for.
@@user-xi3fn4iw5fOne day you will do that ...
@@user-xi3fn4iw5fyou are not a mistake. God willed that you should be here otherwise you would not have life. However, God has established a way in which babies should be brought about. Just as a child conceived outside a sacramental marriage is not a mistake, neither is a child conceived through IVF. God chose to bless the couple regardless of their disregard for God s order because God is good. That doesn’t make the act of fornication or the use of IVF licit, but the human created in both acts is still a person made in God’s image who is good, never a mistake, and always a blessing.
@jaymieshaw9483 While I appreciate your perspective, I do not believe that assisted reproduction is comparable to fornication.
REAL KNOWLEDGE FROM A MOTHER WHO IS GIFTED ENOUGH TO TELL THE TRUTH: I became pregnant at the first try. Around 9 days after ovulation there suddenly was a soul with me. I was in bed and knew I wasn't alone anymore. I could talk to it and it told me it's in a female body, everything is medically fine. She did NOT want ultrasound. She knew exactly what it was and told me it would harm her energetically and physically. So I didn't do it. I had a homebirth.
Her soul is awesome. She has so much wisdom 😮 I was in awe.
Frankly I don't see a difference in IVF compared to normal conception and here why: the soul looks for the parents. She stays with the mom and makes sure she is in the right family. If not she will leave and let another soul enter the baby's body after birth when the baby takes its first breath. ❤ I'm against abortion though😢 please use birth control if you don't want children and just refrain from having Sex on ovulation. Why is that so hard?
I have frozen some eggs and think about getting my 3rd baby with ivf. I'll be over 40 then
I dont agree. I've had numerous miscarriages and never felt a thing. Its like learning you didn't get a promotion you were up for...disappointing if you were counting on it but otherwise, meh. I didn't even feel the children I had were alive until they drew breath. Its the breath of life not the amorphous blob of possible life. Im certainly not holding a funeral for every Tampax just in case an egg got fertilized and didn't implant. On top of that it seems stupid and wasteful and pointless to have a so called life that nobody knows exists and dies unseen and unknown in your body 3 days after creation, what's the point in that? Or molar pregnancy is that alive, is it even human? Its a fertilized egg and sometimes has a "heartbeat" buts its a tumor made of nightmares
Hello Father, do you have any advice for people who feel oppressed by other peoples blessing and choose an ‘I’ll show them kind of attitude’ (instead of seeing others blessing as hopeful and evidence of God being with us) in order to motivate themselves to compete with others in an attitude of scarcity?
And what about the other type of fertility treatments that are not as extreme as IVF?
Father, I don't understand your position regarding an across the board denial of IVF ( I am neither pro nor con). However, if a husband and wife (not a homosexual couple, or single parent) can only have children by way of IVF, how is this wrong? How is there an absence of love solely because conception was not the product of intercourse? Does not God's continuing gift to humanity to endow us with the knowledge to uplift our station in life through medicine?
Mainly because the process of IVF involves fertilizing dozens and dozens of eggs, creating dozens of embryos, the vast majority of which end up being destroyed in order to produce one or two healthy ones. Those are human lives.
@60Singing also they "rank" the embryos which is basically eugenics
@@TheHappyBunny91 absolutely 😢
I think it is a gross exaggeration that dozens of harvested eggs actually produce dozens of embryos. Out of 13 eggs they managed to get from me, 3 embryos. Two boys and a girl. But that is enough.
Absolutely true. Each embryo is graded and tge parents choose. 😬@TheHappyBunny91
I have an Ivf baby on the way I might not have given it enough thought and prayer but I truly believe if I raise a beautiful God fearing child then it out weighs what moral hang ups I have
Am I any less of a real human? Father, I have been struggling terribly with accepting the fact I was born IVF. I get overtly jealous from time to time of my friends who had a stable normal upbringing.
None of this is the fault of the children. It all rests on the ones who make the decisions to intervene in God's designed holy paradigm of conception.
@@NFS0038 basically you are saying that God's design was that he should not have been born. dude... also you have to be certain that infertility of his parents was part of God's plan and not caused by act of (evil or not) free will for example.
@@romeofernando4745 That isn't what I said, dont infer what isn't there. God does use infertility to teach people, but that doesn't mean He is the cause of it. The result is the same: you should repent and be humble in the face of God's design, and not try to countermand it.
No, you are fully human brother, even if your parents made a poor decision, this isn't your fault
@SILLY_BILLY_777 it is still incredibly difficult to cope with learning that the woman who brought me up isn't biologically related to me and I really am very lost at the moment. I don't know what to do
Excellent information but as always, it’s best to work with your own priest and bishop in these decisions
I respectfully disagree with a lot of the points in this reflection. Having a beautiful 5 year old from IVF transfer as well as currently 13 weeks pregnant with my remaining frozen embryo, I believe these are two wonderful miracles which definitely were Gods will to be here today. God is not removed from giving life in conception in any way. He is the Giver of Life, whether that’s naturally or with fertility treatment or assistance. My husband would not have had the blessing to be a father if it were not for this process. It was Gods will because otherwise it would not have happened. We are truly blessed to have found IVF.
Just because you want it to be okay, doesn’t mean it is. Children are always good; it’s doesn’t mean that every means of having them is good.
@@BellaDevout Defending your family is always good; it’s doesn’t mean that every means of defending them is good. ... yet you would not deny people self-defence, but you would deny them children? IVF is problematic, but bringing life into this world is a miracle, one just could not do it without involving God. IVF or not.
@@bronicage5666 No one is attacking the parents choosing to resort to IVF. The metaphor doesn’t work. How is IVF self-defence against a threat? It’s a deliberate act that usually results in deaths, and it’s divorcing conception/childbirth from marriage.
@@BellaDevout what? :D I put them in the same theological category, I did not say that parents were attacked because of IVF. Defending your family can also result in death and sin. Yet defending your family is good. IVF may result in sin, yet parenthood and children are good. IVF is less certain to give you children than natural way, if God would not want you to have children you would not have them through IVF either.
Your baby is a wonderful soul and valuable as a human being. The way you conceived them is gravely sinful, an offense against God and the babies' siblings you killed, and you should repent
Science should service the dignity and God-given holiness of human life and person, and I believe that this is the point here. So yes, we don’t use unbiblical practices.However, there is a general tendency towards completely dismissing science, aka I don’t trust medicine only god, which is in fact a manifestation of ones egotism,not faith. A wise spiritual father in Greece used to say: it is blasphemy to have a painkiller in my table and ask god to directly cure my headache.
I’ve seen this argument likened to a man stuck in his roof because of a terrible flood. Boats passed him by offering help, but he refused because he was waiting for God to make the flood go away. It didn’t and he drowned. He asked God why He did not save him, and He said he sent the boats.
You are aware that IVF is not always successful and in the end if a pregnancy appears after a long and painful protocol and is still by the grace of God.
for sure, for some reason commentators here think that humans can by themselves perform miracle of conception through science without grace of God.
Good point
God gave us our mind to create and support life, in the love and wisdom of God's will. Science originates from "scientia", latin for "knowledge". When science is appropriated with the love of Christ, and God's law, science can reaffirm the sanctity of life, outside of the bond of physical union. Thus, the Mystery of Conception is blessed to those married couples: the holy family- mother and father, who otherwise may not experience the blessings of parenthood. However, it must be flesh of the mother and father- no one else. Some people are rendered barren, and we must accept such infertility as God's will. These are the times when husband and wife must adopt the spirit of Christian Charity, and adopt an orphan as their own child: such is the will of God.
True science is separate from the perversions of the depraved "sexual revolution", and those questions posed in this post may be answered as such-
Be aware of Satan's trappings. If Satan can infiltrate certain religious authorities, as seen in child abuse, and the normalization of the homosexual abomination in the fractured church, then Satan can easily infiltrate science, and misrepresent perversion as progression.
Brave New World
I think use to help a married couple conceive is alright. As long as they are married ( man to a woman) and plan to use all the embryos created.
So what's to be said of us who were had via IVF. I don't know for sure but I am relatively certain that if not for the technology I would not exist. Because I might be the result of God's hand being forced. May my existence be considered unethical. Should I even be considering operating under the vision that I should not exist. I was happened with somewhat outside the confines of marriage. According to what's being inside above. If anyone's curious about the specific IVF. I'm pretty sure I was a needle I was injected into the egg that was still inside the womb.
Also don't take this is me being stand offish. I am here seeking more information and knowledge. As I pursued to try to get closer to The Jesus Christ.
These are things you should not worry about. You go to Christ who "makes all things new" all the time. That's all that matters here! You are loved by God.
God is in charge of conception no matter how it happens. It was God's will that you be here so don't question your existence for even one instance.
You are being protected by Gods grace. Pray for your parents to come to repentance.
Well sorry, but I don’t understand why a married Orthodox couple wouldn’t consider this option with careful thought and consideration. God has endowed doctors with knowledge, and if this knowledge is used responsibly (i.e., not to assist 'homosexual couples' or single parents), then why not?
Why not help loving, caring, Orthodox people have children? Doesn’t God work in every conception? If He didn’t intend for it to happen, He wouldn’t allow it.
If God's providence has allowed me to face illness for my humility and salvation, does that mean seeking a cure is against God's will? Or should I simply accept my illness and leave it in God's hands?
Fertility issues can also be viewed as a kind of illness.
If that was you would you really choose not to explore all help that you can get (again, with great care, prayer, consideration, and making sure no conceived babies die in the process), and simply let your life pass without children?
Have you heard of God’s permissive will versus Divine will? God allows many things to happen, it doesn’t mean He wants them.
It doesn’t sound like you’re Orthodox at all; perhaps you could talk to a priest and do some research for yourself into the faith.
So, you are saying that God "doesn't want" a child conceived through IVF to be born, even though it was His will for that child to be conceived, as He assisted in it? Is the life of such a child not as worthy as one conceived naturally? Are you suggesting that such a child didn't come into this world by the will of the Almighty?
"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? And one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered." (Mt. 10-29:30)
And yes, I am cradle Orthodox. But it seems like Latins often have confusion about how God's will works.
@@БратБрат-с5н the morality of the act of conception tells us nothing about the dignity of the child. God is the creator; he chooses who is born, whether that’s through IVF or naturally. God takes every evil and uses it for good.
Nothing is evil about using medicine to treat a condition (such as infertility), or when a child is born to loving parents. Keep that in mind the next time you visit a doctor or take medication. For those who oppose IVF and deem it immoral, it’s no different from treating any other illness with medical intervention. The alternative in both cases is the same: to surrender entirely to the will of God.
So bottom line, putting aside all the misuse cases/scenarios (of which there are many) can an Orthodox Christian couple who are having trouble conceiving receive this assistance? Done as prayerfully as possible, one embryo at a time? How do you know that this ability is not a gift from God, all he had to do is make IVF not work (because of the creative nature of the act, only he has the first and last word on it). I would take caution in proporting to completely understand God's mind on this.
My stance on this is God ordained sex for two purposes: bonding and reproduction. Reproduction is a fruit of sex and sex alone, as Fr. Josiah articulated in this reflection. If a couple can not conceive, that is God's will. All children are miracles, again, as Fr. Josiah articulated. Contraceptives, and similarly IVF, succeeding is solely the decision of God in His vast providence and will. So yes, He may decide for IVF to bear a child, but this is not a Christian path. He also allowed Satan to test Job, this does not mean Job should've sought the testing himself. God's sovereignty is God's alone, we have His sacred Word and Tradition.
Fr Josiah did address your question, bc you should trust in God and his providence. I understand that infertility is a difficult issue.
@@WSlopeAggiewhy is infertility the only malfunction of the body that we are forced to accept as God's will? If you get cancer is that not God's will? Yet somehow we can go get treatment for it. If your arm gets cut off that's God will, but you can take your arm to the doctor and have them try to sew it back on. But infertility, no, you just have to accept that and do nothing about it.
@@Z3r0Strife Yeh I think he has missed the nuance. It is permitted to have sex with your wife and have sperm go into her when she is pregnant there is zero chance of making a baby. So his position is incosistent and not nuanced enough.
The sin alone of having your husband masturbate into a cup to collect sperm probably wouldn’t be blessed by your priest… I know it wasn’t blessed for a couple in our parish struggling with infertility.
This ongoing manipulation of human Life is all about lack of respect of the will of God and lack of Faith.
Don't manipulate anymore!
Good that we celebrate natural conception !❤
God wants more souls to save at the end of time. God only helps those who help themselves. Human effort and prayer and focus and God's grace gave us IVF. It is the reason my stepsister is here. Medicine is the only reason I could speak God's name. The idea that God is apart from healing and fertility is dogmatic and immature.
@@skeleton1765
God is Life. God is healing. It is in God we must put our Trust, not in medicine. Medicine can not create Life. Only God can create Life.
It does not mean we shall not use medicine, but we should not worship it or use it against God's Word.
Medicine is being worshipped today and it makes people sick.
The symbol of medicine is the snake, because the snake can intoxicate you and then the snake venom can be used to heal you from the snake's intoxication.
That is why they snake is often depicted as a circle, biting it's own tail. It is a vicious circle.
You praise medicine and say it made it possible for you to pronounce God's Word. Your words already show you put medicine above God.
Yet, it was God who created your mouth and your voice AND your healing. Your Creator deserves Your praise.
This ones hard for me
It's hard for me to say it's wrong
But
The church is much older then i
God's Wisdom. Thank you for sharing these truths!
There is nothing in the Canons nor our Creed that negates the medical miracles of IVF much as it doesn’t prohibit organ transplants either. This is your human interpretation.
Hi Father,
I have a question.
When you spoke about conception being a 'miracle', I wondered what it means if God allows us to create these miracles? In a sense, he allows us the power to perform these miracles. My first question is 'what does it mean that God allows us to perform these miracles?'
The most obvious response to this idea is that miracles and sin are separate concepts. Something normally miraculous performed under the wrong context can qualitatively change the thing. For example, if we replace the word 'miracle' with 'holy' then sex is an obvious example of this reasoning. Sex is holy and sacred if performed under the right set of internal and external circumstances, but if performed outside these bounds is sinful and unholy. However, the difference between 'holy' and 'miracle' is found in the definition of what a miracle is. A miracle is an event that (if a real miracle, and not a false miracle) is good, it is from God. Therefore, even in the case of IVF, the life that comes forth and blooms from it is still a miracle. It is still good. My second question; 'does this mean that IVF is sinful for the parent but God mercifully spares the new life the extra burden of the parent's sin?'
My third question comes from my simultaneous interests in my religion (I'm a non-denominational Christian, considering Orthodoxy) and my career in Technology. At what point is the technology I use (with my intent, knowledge and free will) an extension of myself morally. For example, if IVF became advanced enough to be portable and done at home (let's say between a man and a woman), and after conception the woman gestated otherwise normally, would there be openness to the technology? This seems like an important question because I have no doubt until it's simply a matter of time before this can be done. I would like to add a few final points to contextualise the question. 1) if I were to commit a crime with a shovel, that shovel would be considered an extension of me in that crime. 2) if I stole people's property online without physically taking anything, my actions would be considered the key to judging the end result. It would not matter that there were a sequence of technological events in between my physical actions and the crime. Therefore my question is, why is technology not measured similarly here?
I would also like to add that the above above argument for technology does not apply to contraception because the act of deciding on the contraception is the key event, it does not matter what sort of contraceptive technology (or technique) then follows. This is actually consistent with the reasoning about technology in the context of a crime. So restating my third question again, why is IVF seemingly treated inconsistently?
Thank you father
Wow those are a lot of words too bad I’m not reading em
But what if you lost 2 but with IVF you get what you lost? 2 for 2?
What are your thoughts on single women adopting embryos and becoming mothers that way? It is depriving them of a father but it also allows them to come into this world. I'm truly conflicted about this. The Lord has not brought me a husband and has had me care for family and live on the mission field in east Africa for most of my 20's and early 30's. At 37, I feel I am at a crossroads and needing to decide if I will pursue embryo adoption or remain as I am. There is no Orthodox church in the country which I am serving, so I would greatly appreciate your insight.
We cannot and will not traffic in human flesh.
@@User001x-h look up the stats on the childhood outcomes of single motherhood, and ask yourself if you want to force that on another human being.
@@NFS0038 single motherhood is pretty bad yes, and yet a child raised by a single mother would rather exist than not. or are you want to present to me an antinatalist argument about suffering=therefore do not have children.
@@bronicage5666 the child doesn't exist until conception. So until the mother conceives, this child is just an idea, not a real soul. In the case of existing embryos from IVF, we can have discernment about the circumstances in which they are raised. Should we allow homosexuals access to IVF embryo children for the same reason? I think not.
@@NFS0038 This specific case, we are talking about adopting embryo. That would otherwise may be discarded.
W świetle języka Biblii znaczenie przy poczęciu ma wszystko co łączy bądź dzieli istoty które zbliżają się ku sobie
share with anyone that you want to give an clear argument to
@@TboneWTFa UA-cam comment won't give that question any sort of justice; if you really want to know, go ask an Orthodox priest.
@@TboneWTF Because of the impossibility of reality and ability to justify morality as we know it otherwise.
Thank you! And I say this in love. Republicans stance on this topic is costing them votes. It impacted the last election, and it may very well decide this one. I think it's very possible this may be comment on politics in general. Personally, I don't care. These acts are an abomination. You follow God, or you follow the world.
Voting is a joke. It gives legitimacy to an illegitimate system.
@@ElonMuskrat-my8jy It certainly is very quickly becoming illegitimate, and has historically been that way.
My Protestant aunt and uncle recently "had" a child through IVF. With a donor egg and donor sperm. This is a major issue in even the Christian world, and we as Orthodox Christians must be more commandeering on this subject. We can not simply stand idly by as fellow believers demolish the sacred intent of marriage and sex.
@@qazyman It's been proven illegitimate since 2020.
@@qazyman Its been proven to be that way since 2020.
The vast majority of IVF cases are married couples who cannot conceive. Using our knowledge and God-created minds to remedy this should be celebrated. That goes for any modern medicine that has both extended lifetimes and given people second chances at life.
With respect, this is incorrect. I know from having subfertility for many many years. IVF has made drs working in this field, very lazy. Most drs don't even do the basics to check the couple- mostly because ivf is big $$. Man interferes in the process with IVF and its Godc who gives life. I battled infertility 10 years and we overcame it with God and God ethical drs who DID NOT do ivf
Well done for sidestepping all of the many arguments Father gave and simply declaring the opposite conclusion based on some nebulous feel-good statement.
Im curious what the Orthodox Position on Adoption is?
Also is modern medicine always seen as an evil?
Whenever priests have a health problem they run right to a doctor. They don’t just pray over the Virgin Mary’s sash.
Brave New World is the guidebook for our modern dystopia. Hedonism is espoused and forming families is looked down upon.
This ones hard for me
It's hard for me to say it's wrong
But
The church is much older then iw
IVF provides an opportunity to develop insight into the miracle of life. After all, God doesn’t have a problem with 20-40% of fertilized eggs being discarded in a regular woman’s menstrual cycle. The control freaks must step aside and let God work with the scientists.
If IVF is sinful why does God bless those women by letting them carry to full term?
Why does God bless serial killers with wives and children and you’re still alone and sad😂
@@nexstbob6911 God Bless you, my friend. I hope you find the love you’re looking for. 💞✝️ Have a great rest of your day!
@@dannelle17 no I don’t care anymore God didn’t provide when I needed I guess he wanted to protect me from ever experiencing a hug which means it’s time for me to do the next best thing heroln 😊 By the time I’m done with this flesh he won’t recognize me on judgment day
@@nexstbob6911 Oh I am so deeply sorry to hear that, sweet friend. I know it can feel like we’re all alone at times. I love you and God loves you and He’s always there even when you can’t feel Him. I’ve added you to my prayer list and really hope you can find some peace in this world. Everyone deserves that ❤️🩹
Haven't watched the video but yes IVF is immoral. For one, forming a human being in a petri dish does not sit right with me, and two, donating sperm/eggs is wrong.
I guess I would ask what if conceiving the conventional way would be highly dangerous to the Mother (ie a guaranteed death) which is certainly possible. 😊
@@xLegionaryxx watch the full video. Fr addresses putting your own will and desires for parenthood over God's.
@frenne_dilley It's not wrong because it makes me uncomfortable, it's wrong because we are not designed to be conceived artificially in a petri dish, it is in a way playing God.
IVF does not require a donation of sperm or eggs.
@RonanAquilius
Then I would suggest to you that you break your phone and stop useing the internet don’t drive a car don’t fly a plane. Not where cloths not made out of wool and natural ingredients such as cotton.
Stop working at a factory and grow your own food.
Stop eating just about every thing sold at super markets because most these things are artificial. Not goto doctors or use medicine when you get sick.
Your argument is folly. I’m every way.
You might as will live as an Amish.
I’ll enjoy my technology and the fruits it bears. While you rub yo sticks and stones together. For enjoyment.
Calm on man. It’s not about what you feel.
What you feel is wrong.
Trying to decide for me what I should do with my DNA my genetics my choice in a world full of choices.
Give me a break.
From my observation, American Orthodox are much more judgmental than Russian Orthodox regarding IVF. Not saying it is right or wrong, just an observation.
I think some views stem from being around materalism to such a degree that some nuances they feel they can’t afford at times…
There isnt any truth to that generalization. Orthodoxy is not nationalistic. There are many saints across the Globe that have spoken of the dangers of IVF,Saint Porphyrios happens to be one of them.
@@angeleyes7401that’s good to know. Thank you