Church Splits - LCMS and ELCA Lutherans
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2024
- The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America do have a connection, which this video examines: The interesting Story of Concordia Seminary in Exile, or Seminex.
Link to "Seminex: Memories of a Church Divided" • Tim Frakes Productions...
When a German Lutheran church were deciding to drop preaching in German and preach in English, a congregant said " If German was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for us ".
I remember my grandparents taking me to a Finnish Lutheran Church when I was a child. It later closed when the Finnish speaking population in our area declined. Which is a shame, because if Finnish was good enough for Jesus…..😇
@@leeb.7188 EVERY Lutheran KNOWS that German is the official language in Heaven. There is NO division on that!
@@johnhouchins3156
😅
@@leeb.7188 Thats sad. I had thought that the Yooper Lutheran churches still had some Finnish services.
@@leeb.7188 Yooper?
I grew up in an LCMS parsonage. I remember Seminex causing quite a stir and one nearby congregation in my father's circuit left for the AELC. And regarding the German Saxon migration on those three ships, my 3x-great-grandmother and her parents were on one of those ships, and one of her brothers was born on the voyage. He was named Gottlieb (God's love). Almost all of those Saxons settled in the St. Louis area which has always been the home of the synodical headquarters of the LCMS.
My ancestors may have known yours.
While I’m not Lutheran [ nor Catholic], I used cut through Concordia as a short cut to/from High school [ CBC].
Decades later [ while in prison], I saw a Bible translation that I really liked [ by William Beck]. I ordered one, and ended up with an ongoing subscription to a newspaper “Christian News”, mostly concerning the LCMS. I found it very interesting. It talked a great deal about the “Liberalism “ that the Editor saw creeping in to the LCMS.
Apparently the newspaper still exists - Christian News , New Haven MO. -
✝️🙏
Here's something interesting to note about the relationship between the LCMS and the ELCA is that during the 1960s and 70s. The LCMS invited the ELCIC along with the two denominations that would eventually merge into the ELCA (LCA and ALC) to be part of a collaborative effort called the Inter-Lutheran Commission on Worship. This effort would ultimately culminate in the publication of the Lutheran Book of Worship (LBW) though by the time it was released in 1978, the LCMS had already pulled out of the partnership and subsiquently released their own hymnal called Lutheran Worship
Makes sense now why LCA and LCMS both used the "red book" for a time. I remember when the LCMS "blue book" (LBW) came out after that.
Those two hymnals are nearly identical in content.
The theologically liberal Lutheran majority sounds like the broad instead of the narrow path
You are correct.
Yes
Amen
and sometimes the narrow path is the lost sheep. Which lucky for you, Jesus still loves the lost sheep and will not give up on them.
@@joeiverson5013 Matthew 7:13-14. Find a church that is committed to biblical orthodoxy. I promise you won't regret it.
I'm not Lutheran but I have deep respect for the LCMS. As for their restrictive approach to communion, if I may paraphrase the Fathers of the Church, 'you are who you are in communion with.' My own church (Eastern Orthodox) also practices closed communion which was the norm in almost all Christian denominations until fairly recently.
I am LCMS Lutheran. We also respect the Orthodox community. John Nelson Darby and his people were largely responsible for the open communion practices, and the Rapture theory eschatology
I remember Seminex and the split among the Lutheran churches in my town. Seemed like everyone was upset and moved to more liberal Lutheran church. The Missouri Synod church closed a few years later. Now a Missouri Synod church has been planted again. I remember how angry everyone was.
Came to learn some history and this video is quite concise and objective, thank you. I think ELCA and LCMS have gone further to two opposite ends in the past decade. But God continue to call people to different clans for different works.
Nice picture of the old LCMS Seminary building on South Jefferson but when the Historical-Critical Method controversy and Seminex happened it was at the current campus in Clayton that was opened in 1927.
While they might not agree, the LCMS seems a lot closer to the Catholic Church than other Lutherans.
A good friend used to want me to come to her LCMS church and the told me, "We're more Catholic than the Pope.". No thank you, I thought. Such judgemental arrogance didn't sit well with me.
It is meant that "we're more catholic than the pope" is to say that we hold to the Bible more than the pope does. The word catholic with a little c just means the universal church.
We do agree with that. Not the late Catholic church, but the early catholic church before she departed from the Bibles' teachings. Not the modern pope Francis church.
Superficially, the LCMS may look Catholic, but the differences are huge. In the LCMS there's no praying to Mary or the saints, no worship of Mary, no purgatory, and definitely NO Pope. I may have missed a few other things. Of course there's also the issues of justication by faith apart from works and Scripture being the sole authority of faith and practice which are the positions of the historic Lutheran church.
That's the point of the Lutheran Reformation. The goal was not to abolish the Catholic Church, but reform it by removing the Papal innovations. The only things which were removed were those which contradicted the Bible. The rest of the customs and traditions were allowed to remain. Other, more recent, Protestant denominations are clean reboots, where they just decided to abolish everything except for the Bible itself.
It is easier LCMS to join with WELS than ELCA. For example, there are Full Comunion with The Association of American Lutheran Churches and others Lutheran Churches in the world through the International Lutheran Council.
I lived through the LCMS troubles, and eventually went to WELS. Many shared my journey.
I think at some point the WELS and LCMS will at some point join back together. LCMS has been going more and more conservative in general due to the shifting climate in the US, and my congregation views WELS as just slightly more conservative than us, but kind of joined together against the ELCA’s stupidity. As church attendance declines, I think the churches will set aside their differences in order to maintain influence
@@jewey1894 I think so too.
ELCA is not Lutheran at all today...so they are also not Christian anymore. ELCA can join a proper Lutheran denomination as soon as they make a 180 on all their heresies
@@Dilley_G45 That's what congregations that can afford to leave are doing (which is why the ELCA is making it harder and harder for congregations to leave).
It's important to note that while the denominations are night and day in terms of leadership, ideology and goals... the vast majority of the parishioners in both churches are relatively moderate.
Who else in the LCMS just laughed at 5:39
Slightly
Yep.
Not going to lie. Hilarious.
Lol
I'm not even Lutheran, yet I couldn't help but give a slight chuckle! 😃
I'm an LCMS member. Most of the people in my congregation don't consider ELCA's Lutheran at all or "watered down" Lutheran.
and most elca lutherans consider LCMS to be lutherans not overly concerned with following the ways of Jesus. Not to mention arrogant. To hold the position that one won't give communion to people who don't believe just like them, as if it was meant to be a carrot, if you did a good enough job. It is called a means of grace, but is transformed into something you can earn.
A national embarrassment.
Why would you want communion from a church that you have theological differences with? I would not take communion in an elca church or any church that is not theologically sound for fear of God's judgment. We don't like withholding communion but when it's proper to do so then that's what we do.
@@williamwebb2504 I completely agree with you.
@@joeiverson5013 Your comment is an atestation of how far apart we are. The sacrament of Communion only up until recently was almost universally closed. Communion, in addition to being a means of God's Grace, is a PUBLIC CONFESSION of what we corporately believe. If we can't agree on what we believe, how can we possibly commune together?
This places some things in context. I had known an LCMS minister in 1970 in Indiana who had gone to Concordia. He was theologically liberal in many respects. He had talked a little about purges in the church. Later around 1975 I learned he had left the ministry but lost contact with him.
Very interesting to hear the story of the splite.
Such interesting content!
At my local ELCA Lutheran church there are several older people that used to be LCMS. It's not uncommon for people to change denominations depending on life circumstances.
The pastor wasn't directly involved in Seminex, but was raised in the LCMS and very familiar with the controversy. Alot of former LCMS saw Preus as bringing unnecessary controversy into the denomination. For some, there was also the accusation that he did so for political purposes (to move the LCMS politically more towards other Evangelical/Fundamentalist churches by intimidating liberals or modernists, who were at one time not that rare in the LCMS. The LCMS in the 1950's was almost as "mainline" as any other Lutheran denomination could be).
Definitely. Life circumstances play a huge factor. My parents raised me in an ELCA congregation and we continue to attend a different congregation of the same denomination since moving south, but my mom was raised LCMS and my dad was raised Roman Cathloic, even going to Cathloic school his last two years of high school.
I've read spme of J.A.O. Preus' scholarship. He was no American Evangelical. Preus had to so something or the church would have gone full liberal. Real Lutheranism and Higher Criticism dosen't match up.
@@CornCod1 Right, because the Gospel is about talking snakes and worldwide floods, not the Cross...
@@Magnulus76 Good News of God's payment for our sin, which has its origin in Genesis.
Kurt Marquardt proved this political theory wrong in his book "Anatomy of an Explosion". Also, theology is always tied to politics. Look at Martin Luther and every great Christian confessor, including everyone in the early church. Separation of church and state is for the church's protection from a god-less state, not for the pulpit.
Enlighten and Thx Josua for the commentary on a faith I follow.
Was an LCMS teenager when this split occurred. Didnt really understand what had happened.
“Reform” should be about returning an organization back to its principles. “Revolution” is about taking it elsewhere. The turmoil caused by revolutionaries trying to “fix” things is caused by requiring that others sacrifice to/for the new ideology. Last 30 years Ive watched so many people suffer as their denominations were “hijacked” out from under them.
By people convinced they were superior, but who “meant well”.
Not only are you right to say that ELCA and LCMS member would laugh at that idea of the two organization joining, but there are many in the LCMS who question if the ELCA is even Lutheran any longer. The fact, not only have they ordained women, but it is known that they commune anyone, including atheists. Such things should not be and indeed violate the Confessions. Sadly, that is actually another issue I saw during my time in the ELCA, not many of the laity actually know the Confessions. Certainly many know, or are at least aware of, the Small Catechism. However, the larger documents, such as the Augsburg Confession and its Apologia, or the Smallcald Articles are virtually unknown among many of the laity of the ELCA, or they are dismissed as outdated and restrictive if they are known. Yet, oddly, in its attempt at unity with almost every church organization out there, the ELCA has very little internal unity anymore, as those of us who opposed Called to Common Mission would say. Honestly, in my opinion, the ELCA isn't Evangelical nor Lutheran, and even calling them a church might be overly generous. I would honestly implore those who are faithful to God's word to leave the ELCA and find a church body that truly accepts God's word as it is written, and also to study and return to the Confessions. Actually, that might be an interesting thing to see you cover in brief, the Augsburg Confession.
So many Christians read the Bible thinking they are reading it as it was written like it wasn't debated and put together many years after Jesus' death and resurrection. There are countless passages in direct competition with each other. And Christians feeling the same way you do used certain parts over others to justify the norm of their time. The Bible is meant to be studied, thought about, and debated with the center being Jesus. You come from a position of such supposed superiority claiming ECLA isn't even a church when anyone could walk through one of its doors and fully participate in worship while holding a differing view theologically. I have not experienced the same in many churches you would claim are the true believers.
They also have openly gay clergy.
I remember many years back an ELCA church in my city got struck by lightning.
if that's not a sign i don't know what is
You must live in Minneapolis?
God was redecorating.
@@basedpatriarch You are a simpleton. And an embarrassment to Luther.
So what I've gathered from watching this presentation is that unlike most of the other denominations, where the conservatives of the congregations split off due to the church becoming too liberally theocratic; in the Lutheran sphere the liberal members left the mainline church because they were too conservative for them?
Psst... many German and Scandinavian Lutherans were already here with the German Lutherans who settled in Missouri arrived.
I’m a student at Concordia Seminary currently and we’re in the midst of looking back at the seminex situation. All very interesting and I’m glad the purity of LCMS teaching was preserved by president Preuss.
@1:56 Just before this point would have been a good place to talk about the breakup of Evangelical Lutheran Synodical Conference of North America.
What about the Norwegian, Swedish, and Finnish Lutheran Churches in the USA (I forget the official names)? They merged with other Lutheran bodies (presumably German, although when my ancestors came over, “Germany” was a geographic region with many independent states).
I graduated from Eden Seminary, where many “Seminex” students and professors attended classes. It caused major friction between my seminary and Concordia ever since. We are just starting to do things like CPE programs together.
I'm former LCMS, and to be fair, most of the laity know very little to nothing specific about most any historical confessions of the LCMS, other than the small catechism.
Let me tell you,,but I can't Stop crying about it..
1. Not every professor was brought before the fact-finding committee, a number of them avoided the seminary and those interviews forever. Otherwise, great research done.
Ah yes, Seminex. I lived through that. I'm a WELS Lutheran now. Perhaps in my lifetime WELS and LCMS will rejoin in fellowship. I hope so. LCMS dabbled too much and WELS had to break fellowship. It's kind of ironic, as the LCMS saved WELS from becoming liberal many, many years ago.
As the United States continues to become more divided (culturally, politically, ethnically, etc), they will probably find enough common ground to rejoin.
well, I am a student planning to become a LCMS and am going to a WELS college, so maby? As far as I know, our official doctine agrees with each other with the only real difference being you don't allow women to be Sunday school teachers.
The informal discussions (among other things) are promising.
Back in the bad old days of the previous LCMS administration, a lot of LCMS members left for the WELS not because they really agreed with the WELS on, for example, prayer fellowship, but because they were seen as a more conservative alternative to the LCMS.
The LCMS is not likely to adopt the WELS position on prayer fellowship or their unique position on the office of the ministry anytime soon.
@ John Houchins...it is likely, as long as our LCMS congregations 'stick to their guns...we have lits of stuff on paper that needs to be airtight....there is some corruption we need to eradicate first....such as removing corrupt pastors rather than just dumping them in different districts, mandate natural wine and not encourage natural wine use in the eucharest.... the WELS would have toturn away from women's suffrage.....there are only a few items that keep the 2 divided.....there is a book called A TALE OF 2 SYNODS that talks about their divide.
The ELCA might as well change the L to liberal, as it has little relation to its namesake.
Enthusiastically Liberal Church of Apostasy!
It's like a reverse UMC lol
ELCA shouldn't even be able to announce themselves as a Lutheran Church. They need to drop the connection for the protection for the beliefs of the real Lutheran Churches.
Im practicing Lutheran Theology eventhough im a Baptist. Lutheran Theology are likely to be biblical.
Peace to all Christian Denomination.
I'm a member of a lcms church
LCMS don't consider ELCA or most others to be Lutheran in anything beyond name only.
We are in communion with some Lutheran churches overseas, but ELCA is not Lutheran. We don't recognize them.
My goodness. Does no one with responses to this video wish to show Christ's love rather than arrogant judgment and even hate? Who would even wish to be part of this? I do think it sounds like the Pharisees judging Jesus' unorthodox actions.
These people are why I believe that if Jesus came back they wouldn't recognize him and crucify him all over again.
It seems like many of the people leaving judgmental comments here almost take pleasure in condemning ELCA members as heretics. I would think if a Christian truly thought ELCA congregations were in serious error, they would be grieving for them, praying for them, and trying to correct those with whom they disagree. I see a lot of spiteful, nasty, and disrespectful comments here. I would hope most LCMS members are not so quick to condemn and pass judgement. There is no LCMS church anywhere near my location, but there are a few ELCA congregations. I guess everyone in my town is doomed unless they can cough up the money for car insurance, gas, and a vehicle to drive 30 minutes to an LCMS church every week.
You must have "a tiger in you tank" that goes back aways..my 2nd. Take..who said that...
Jesus Christ is the ONLY one who can save and is the ONLY way to Heaven.
Friend....that is exactly what orthodox confessional Lutheran doctrine teaches
@@Dilley_G45 Does he require the absolute correct theology?
@@SandfordSmythe who is he? And yes the Bible says we are to teach sound doctrine. As fallible human beings Noone is perfect but we are like good Bereans to examine scripture daily. And we have church fathers and the Augsburg Confession, the 3 creeds and book of Concord to guide us. I also read certain Roman catholic and Orthodox sources.
@@Dilley_G45 In His direct preaching in the bible, not other's interpretation. I'm certainly not an expert here, "Who ever believes in me shall be saved" He condemned the Pharisees for nit-picking , A Lutheran will be denied the Lord's Supper unless he is accepted into the Missouri Synod? Christ said " Do this in rememberence of Me". He didn't talk about having the right credentials. I can take Communion at a rural conservative sect Presbyterian church as long as I "believe".
@@SandfordSmythe what do you mean? We ALL interpret. However some want to introduce their own meaning. Or do you distinguish between Paul and Jesus? For me Paul's epistles are inspired by the holy spirit and therefore on par with Jesus direct words. As Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both part of the Godhead
No split.. they were never the same organization.
A denomination split from the LCMS and was part of what made the ELCA.
Aren't we our own preachers?
Is Missouri Sd considered a “woke” church?
No
Possibly, but only by WELS or ELS.
BTW, I relatively recently found out that there was a split within Lutheran theology called the Predestinarian controversy. Basically the more conservative Lutherans had a theology very similar to Calvinism, to use it's five points as a model, these Lutherans believed in: 1 Total depravity, 2 Unconditional election, 3 Unlimited atonement, 4 Irresistible grace, and 5 Perseverance of the saints. So, very similar to Calvinism, except they say that atonement is unlimited.
A passage of philosophical digression: This makes this viewpoint paradoxical / contradictory within itself, it says that atonement is unlimited, and that election is unconditional, which implies that all people will be saved, but Lutherans say that not everyone will be saved. There are three ways to avoid the contradiction between these views, by rejecting one of them: to say (like Calvinists) that atonement is limited and that is why not all will be saved; to say (like Arminians and others) that election /salvation is conditional, and those who choose to not fulfil the conditions are the ones who will not be saved; or accept those two views are true and accept what they logically imply - that all will be saved, to accept universalism. But this theology does none of that, and actually recognizes that it's position is contradictory, but says that it is nevertheless true (because the Bible says so, in their view). Our reason's inability to harmonize these three doctrines doesn't mean we should reject any of them, these Lutherans say. In fact, they reject such an attempt of harmonization as the sin (or heresy) of rationalism.
Those Lutherans are called "through faith" Lutherans, because they focus on the fact that people are saved through faith, while believing that such faith itself is totally monergistic, and predestined unconditionally. The other camp is the "in view of faith" (intuitu fidei) Lutheranism, who say God predestined people to be saved "in view of their faith" ie by His foreknowledge of who will accept / not resist salvation. So using the five points model, they hold to: 1 Total depravity, 2 Conditional election, 3 Unlimited atonement, 4 Resistible grace, 5 Perseverance of the saints. This viewpoint is most similar to Arminianism, with the difference in the 5th point.
You really are misrepresenting what we believe about salvation and atonement. I might recommend reading the Book of Concord. We don't say that Christ only died for the elect or that God chose who would go to Hell, as John Calvin and others would claim. No. We say that Christ died for all and that you can chose to reject Christ. God's free gift of salvation is for all. However, like any gift, you can reject it. Of course what I have said is possibly an oversimplification, but it gets the point across in fewer words.
@Christopher Rose I represented two different groups. You obviously belong to the intuitu fidei Lutherans, it stands to reason you disagree with the view of the other group. If you want, you can look up about this debate between the two camps of Lutheran theologians, there are academic papers about it available online, thats how I read about it..
@@k9builder It's a liberal knee jerk that when you tell a Lutheran to stop being so modernist or liberal they accuse you of being a Calvinist. I talked at length with my Calvinist friends, doubting your salvation does not make you Calvinist.
@@zelenisok In describing both Lutheran strands of thought, you included perseverance of the saints. I’m curious as to what group of Lutherans ever believed in perseverance of the saints in the sense that the Reformed do-every Lutheran thinker I’m aware of believed true Christians can and do fall away from faith and never return to it (whether or not they are correct is another matter-I’m referring to what Lutherans themselves believed to be true, not whether or not they were correct in those beliefs). I know Lutheran history from the Reformation up Lutheran Orthodoxy and the rise of Pietism fairly well, and the mid 19th century in America up until the present somewhat, and I’ve never heard of a mainstream Lutheran theologian holding to perseverance-runs counter to the Lutheran view of concupiscence and regeneration-the sin-nature is seen always to be resisting grace-from conversion until death. To my knowledge, that always entails the possibility of apostasy in Lutheran thought.
Are there specific, mainstream thinkers in the Lutheran tradition (Luther, Melanchthon, Chemnitz, Gerhard, Walther, Krauth, Weidner, etc) you could point me to who clearly hold to perseverance in the mold of the Reformed tradition?
(For context, I was raised and theologically trained in the LCMS, though am now Anglican and incline toward the new perspective on Paul and corporate election with respect to biblical theology on these matters, apologetically buttressed by a philosophical theology outlining election with modal metaphysics.)
ELCA is as close as a christian can get to atheism without being one
what nonsense
Speaking liek a true American chauvinist.
Like the other mainline Prots, ELCA is little short of Unitarian Universalism, just the sprinkling of holy water on whatever Progressive agenda item is on board today. In SF, one of their chruches is a shrine to The Goddess....
@@ViolentFEAR The word is spelled "like." Moron.
@@ViolentFEAR it’s the truth. If you want to go start your own little sect of what YOU want to believe?? Go for it.. but don’t try & hijack a very established/grounded in its ethics & values religion & say “we are throwing out all the stuff that makes us feel iffy, & keeping what we like” that’s not how the world works, & I’m willing to bet God will accept YOU deciding what works & doesn’t work at less than myself...
We left an ELCA congregation to join an LCMS congregation. The ELCA is barely recognizable as Christian anymore.
Wokeism will never win in the end. Jesus does.
Is Missouri Sd federally subsidized?
I was raised in the LCA/ELCA but have left years ago due to their departure from Scripture. I am beyond ashamed and disgusted with what the ELCA has become and preaches. How dare they ignore biblical truth??!!!!! They forget that someday they will have to answer for this. I just hope and pray they stop using the name "Lutheran". This makes me sick!!
Those talking about PROGRESSION and FORWARD THINKING.....
These are like giving way to saying " church is church", and "God loves you no matter what you do or what you believe ".
BUT, IF God truly loves you no matter for what you do or what you believe, then sending Jesus as an atoning sacrifice for our sin doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Please LCMC
Yeah nah
I rather be UMC than ELCA but LCMS is the best one that is Lutheran.
Jesus founded only ONE Church and not millions denominations...
Yes, and men are sinful. We strive to be true to His Word but sometimes don't agree on what it is and what it means. Hence, we break fellowship instead of staying with those of whom we disagree. Better to be faithful and alone rather that together and wrong in doctrine. That does NOT mean however that just one denomination will be in heaven.
So I take it then that you are either a Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or you belong to one of the so-called "non-denominational" churches.
If it's the latter, I'm sorry but your church is part of a denomination. Look up where your pastor went to seminary and where your church gets its teacing materials and you'll learn what denomination you're in.
And if you're Roman Catholic or EO, well, you're churches claim to be the one true historic visible Christian church is easily refuted. Your denomination is fallible like all the others and the non-denoms.
@@RepublicofE
The New Testament is a "Roman Founding document" meant to transition the Roman Empire from paganism to Monotheism, from the Pax Romana to the Pax Christus by integrating the Roman legal framework to Moses moral laws including the Ten Commandments.
You guys have nothing to lean on or maybe the American Constitution and the Nature's god.
@@Pax-Africana well, it's that Roman connection that really fukked up Christianity in the first place.
@@paulengstrom432
There was no better LEGAL FRAME in the ancient world than the Roman legal system. God didn't make a mistake...
I left them because of their Liberalism.
ELCA --> Walk in your Shame. Your are drawn to what tickles your ears and fancies.
I’ll take the ELCA over the LCMS. ELCA is progressive and forward thinking.
If that's your criteria, then good luck
Forward in accepting the Antichrist
The ELCA has abandoned the Lutheran Confessions. It’s no longer a Lutheran denomination.
Glad those Seminexers got kicked out.
Some returned, others were dragged into Seminex involuntarily. I've met one such person. He's probably one of the most confessional ELCA (now retired) pastors you would ever find. He actually wanted to stay with the LCMS but got stuck with what would become the ELCA due to the events of Seminex.
@@karlrovey huh really, very interesting.
@@oswaldrabbit1409 Indeed. He got stuck. 🙄
"Rope them in" ???? Opinionated much?
I only accept lgbt friendly churches. All other ones don’t even register as existing to me. I’ be been debating on returning to christianity. But, the pettiness between the denominations is so ridiculous.
So you only accept wrong churches. Got it
Lol enjoy hell then.
"I only accept religions which conform to whatever modern cultural fad I identify with." Sounds like religion isn't for you regardless of how "lgbt friendly" a church might be.
I only accept provaccine churches, all other churches are gross. Jesus took the jab too!
You claim there is ridiculous pettiness between the denominations, immediately after you declared that one of the denominations doesn't even register as existing to you. Thank you for the good laugh this morning!
ELCA aren't even Christian... Much less Lutheran.