Lutheran sub-denominations tierlist
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- Опубліковано 6 лют 2025
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As an Estonian Lutheran, I feel proud of our brothers Latvians, God bless you all Latvian Brothers
Tho from my experience, EELK (Estonian Evangelical Lutheran Church) is also really traditional, but the thing is that our country is very atheist
@@tikao5467 I really love Estonian Lutheran architecture, the white with black roofs it's gorgeous
I’m surprised there’s still any of you guys left
@@endygonewild2899 Same, the younger generations just don't care about God, and honestly this is really sad to see
@@matiasgamalieltolmosuarez790 Yeah, the trad architecture is great here and from the inside the churches look Even more aesthethic
Worst thing is when you tell someone you are Lutheran and they think of ELCA
I always say WELS just to prevent that line of thought.
That's what I hate about Catholics, because they don't have the concept of denominations, so they think we are all the same.
The rabid toxicity any other Lutherans have toward us in the ELCA is frankly deranged. Notice we spend next to no time hating on you.
Until 5 years ago, I used to think all Lutherans were theologically liberal because all the major Lutheran churches in my area are ELCA and fly pride flags. I mostly realized that not all Lutherans are like this after finding out that my aunt is an EECMY Lutheran (has ties with LCMS, NALC, LCMC but is Pietistic Lutheran like CLB), and then later on seeing educational videos on theological conservatives in these traditions.
@@leullakew9579EECMY is the largest Lutheran Church in the world.
As a born and raised LCMS Lutheran, I can confidently say that I have never met a Nazi or even Nazi-adjacent LCMS menber in person. I think your experience is just that LCMS is bigger than WELS so there's more people living on the extremes.
Have you done a video on the Church of Christ?
100% agree I am currently an LCMS Lutheran and have only ever met extremely kind and welcoming people even if communion is not allowed unless your lcms
There were a couple who were church disciplined out of LCMS sort of recently. And really they were just racist anti semites, not literal swastika repping nazis. .
My guess is that they're terminally online nominal (in name only) Christians.
I agree, and I think that it's a little weird that Zoomer thinks that people with German decent are more likely to be Nazis. Most of them left Germany for a reason, and the LCMS was founded before the Nazi party came into existence.
I’m a christian from Sweden and the church of Sweden (Svenska Kyrkan) is very liberal. Some priests just say that it’s okay to not believe in God. Also the church is political and the citizens vote over what the church should teach and preach
Ngl that is unacceptable, like allowing members to deny God is insane
Yes but there’s also many great subgroups within Svenska Kyrkan such as EFS which actually care deeply about God.
You need to remember that Sweden is the most secular/individualist country in the world, and so given that reality it’s important to care for the institutional church there. Without it there will be no transformation.
@@fabulouschild2005 I can't wait for Redeemed Zoomer to make a tier list on the Congregationalist denominations (If it is Possible, due to each church being autonomous), as the United Church of Christ is basically the same (I'm not Congregationalist, but I know what goes on in there), with a good deal of athiest pastors, like the United Church of Canada is.
@@TheBlueMarbleProdutions over here in the UK, there are very little in the way of atheist priests/pastors. Even the lgbt affirming priests are very affirming of Christ's Resurrection, God's existence and all that other good stuff. At least in my experience
@@fabulouschild2005 Yeah. I was in a church down in Malmö, Sweden last year and they began by saying that lgbtq+ people and those who deny God are quote ”Welcome”
I’m an LCMS Lutheran and I really enjoy that you mentioned us I have had to explain what a Lutheran is to so many of my friends and even who martyn Luther is. Thank you for these videos
Until 5 years ago, I used to think all Lutherans and Methodists were theologically liberal because all the Lutheran churches in my area fly pride flags. I mostly realized that not all Lutherans are like this after finding out that my aunt is a Lutheran, and then later on seeing educational videos on theological conservatives in these traditions.
His name is Martin Luther my friend
@@berlin4127 let him be I and y are very close together on the key board and even if it was intentional it still makes sense
Excellent video, I'm from the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Brazil, founded by LCMS missionaries in 1900. It's, I think, the biggest denomination in full fellowship with LCMS (pulpit and altar) outside USA. Great church too
The Latvian Lutheran church is also in full communion with the LCMS! :) God bless our Brazilan brothers and sisters in Christ!
Nossa, um outro irmão da IELB. Hahaha, que loucura
@@augustokonrad3572 tamo junto meu nobre hahaha
“My doctrine is not to be judged by any man, nor even by the angels; because I am certain of it, I will judge you and the angels likewise, as St. Paul says (Gal. i. 8), and whosoever does not accept my teaching will not arrive at blessedness. For it is God’s and not mine, therefore my judgment is God’s and not mine.”(Martin Luther, 1522)
And there is the sick, twisted, cruel and inhumane ideas from Luther in his “On the Jews and Their Lies” - The Nazi’s were so impressed with Luther’s book they distributed it for free in Germany before WWII.
I hail from Norway, and the Church of Norway (Den Norske Kirke) has sadly turned extremely liberal. Not just with gay marriages, but priests with no personal faith who are doing it just as a 9-5 job. As @Lyktestople0898 mentioned with the Church of Sweden, the Church of Norway is also politically lead. Normal citizens can vote who gets to sit at the top and legislate. This is dangerous, as we now have the situation where extremely liberal, and some not even Christian, people are deciding how to run a church and denomination.
Reconquista needed in Scandinavia brothers and sisters. Pray for us.
Want to join the european branch of the reconquista? We‘re in the process of organizing but only have a handful of norwegians so far
@@tobiashinrichs6717 Sign me up!
Hvilken Kirke går du i? Jeg er katolikk og jeg er nysgjerrig på om den evangelisk lutherske fri kirke er like liberal som stats kirken. Veldig trist med det som har skjedd de siste årene i statskirken og sekularismen i Norge😢
@@greg28 Helt enig! Det er virkelig på tide at noe skjer. Jeg tilhører Misjonskirken, som i seg selv er frikirkelig - og representerer sannsynligvis den mer konservative delen av Misjonskirken.
Jeg vet dessverre lite om den evangelisk lutherske kirke, så jeg kan ikke uttale meg noe særlig om dem. Finnes ikke en kirke i hjembyen min heller, så jeg har ikke fått mulighet til å besøke.
would it be politically/constitutionally possible to seperate the church from state?
As a young Swedish christian girl who was saved a year ago and raised in an atheist family its so so hard to practise my faith here in Sweden. All churches available to me are very secular and its very hard to find christian friends OUTSIDE of my cathcolic school (im protestant tho). I rlly dont know what to do because church is so important to me but I feel like my faith cant grown in church as it can for others BECAUSE of how liberal and non-bible following the churches are :(
Edit: Tack för alla fina svar + rekommendationer! ❤️
Thank you for all your answers/recommendations!❤️
Are there any smaller conservative Lutheran or other Protestant groups in your country? If you can’t find a conservative Lutheran church maybe look for a more conservative Anglican or Reformed church if there are any at all. I hope and pray you can find a good church. God bless you my sister in Christ.
Become catholic or orthodox. The church has more authority than the Bible
Have you heard about Laestadians?
@@unit2394 Im currently looking into smaller conservative churches and I'm lucky I live in a slightly bigger towns because there ARE more options here, although there aren't a lot near me. Thank you so much though, God bless
Is there any Missionsprovinsen church close to you?
As an LCMS member, while I disagree with your complaints about the LCMS, I totally agree with this tier list! May God continue to bless the Lutheran Church in Latvia and across the world!
Catholic church is best!😇 Popes come and go but the faithful and teaching tradition stays despite everything. Catholicism has unity in diversity which makes it last forever until the last day of the world❤
@@fredandjohnproduction3976 Not the people I know!! I don't know who you are looking at but in my area it is much better than protestants so your take surprises me
As a Latvian Lutheran, I approve of this video :)
God bless our Lutheran brothers and sisters in Christ and any Christian in general
Sola Gratia! And I used to love the Latvian hockey league.
@@joeloliver9544 Thank you brother
I'm an LCMS lutheran, and my grandparents are WELS. I have been to the WELS church before, and besides not letting others have communion, they are pretty welcoming. And yes, my grandparents still pray with the rest of my family.
What is wels?
I've had the exact same experience
@christsavesreadromans1096 because the Catholic church changed some early church teaching
@christsavesreadromans1096 we follow Jesus not the apostle. There successor are not needed.
@christsavesreadromans1096 if it is true
I just got home from my second week attending a WELS church in my area thanks to this channel. Great video!
I'm also just starting to attend a WELS church and am very pleased with the experience
As someone from Slovakia, I can tell you that, while not very numerous, Lutherans, who mostly just refer to themselves as evangelicals, are very spread out, many small towns have their churches. In general, all of the protestant christian groups here work together.
I was raised a baptist, learned from an evanjelical teacher, and the local baptist group my family visits holds service in a seventh-day adventist church building we have been borrowing for years. I have stopped going lately, as I have some issues with certain decisions within, but I still love it.
If you ever want to talk with me about local Slovak affairs or theological differences and opinions, I would be happy to have a chat.
@@joeloliver9544 For the most part, the country is Catholic. There is a notable Evangelical presence in the very Northwest, and some Eastern Orthodoxy in the Nort-east.
I am a student from the Netherlands and belong to the Dutch reformed church. I will be studying in Nitra next year. Do you know some good international churches in Slovakia? Do you know evangelical churches around Nitra?
@@danielslingerland7831Unfortunately no, I am certain there are some evangelical churches around NItra, I do not know of any international ones.
@@samueltrusik3251 Turiec is one of the most Lutheran regions
Brat, keri cirkev hodiš teras? Ak ma ruzumeš 😅
Swedish Lutheran here! My grandpa used to be pastor in the Church in Sweden before it went totally downhill.
Hi @mr.rat78
Are you interested in joining our Reconquista effort ?
@@tobiashinrichs6717 I guess I'm already part of it
@@fidole791 are you in our (European) Reconquista discord server?
@@tobiashinrichs6717 no
Vilken stad bor du i?
I was so butt hurt when you put my beloved LCMS in a tier, but when I saw that the church of Latvia was in S tier, you brought it back around. Well done!
Same 😂
I didnt grow up LCMS but I am now, I found their theology so sound, that when I was a different denomination, i came to believe like them and thought I was alone. My now wife showed me how similar we were and now am so glad to hear the gospel every week.
As a born, raised, and still LCMS Lutheran I really appreciate your assessment of the LCMS. I think your criticisms are fairly on point. Yes we have some extremely conservative Lutherans and individuals who are trying to use our denomination to smuggle in their fascist and antisemitic views in our synods worldview. Additionally, yes we are very isolationist when it comes to fellowship and evangelism efforts in the U.S. (internationally we’re quite social ironically). I will say that the closed/close communion stems from our understanding of communion so any adjustment there will be very gradual. Overall I enjoyed your assessment and appreciated the advocacy you have provided for our denomination in this video.
I’m lcms, very astute observations I agree with you.
SLOVAKIA MENTIONED!!! I was baptized in the church on the right, and I was in the church on the top left just today, for the first time after years of cringe atheism and later vague belief, that's crazy. I have recently been thinking about starting a theology and apologetics chanel, so I guess I have no excuse now xd. I wish you the best of luck with your reconquista of american christianity, may biblical values return to your society.
Slava Bohu brat! Please start a youtube channel we need Slovaks to adhere to sound theology. God bless you!
Awesome to see you included a picture of the interior of Richland Lutheran Church (LCMC in Richland, WA), the church I grew up in and was confirmed in! I’m currently attending an LCMS church and appreciate their historic liturgy and adherence to the Lutheran confessions.
Yooooo, WELS mentioned let's go
Edit: A-tier let's go, as for the not praying with people, as a church we don't participate in worship with outside churches (besides ELS who we're in fellowship with). As individuals, I don't know anyone that won't study or pray with other Christians.
Regarding Lutherans, this is very insightful. I grew up in the SBC. Between high school and college and for many decades afterward I was a moderately good Calvinist. A few years ago I became a confessional Lutheran (LCMS). I told my pastor that the LCMS has the best message of any denomination that I know; it also does the worst job of proclaiming it of any denomination that I know. He was not pleased. The Based Lutheran video you included in your "Why be..." collection was exactly right: it's about affirming what God says, and about turning back to that truth.
I’m a WELS member. What is meant by no outside fellowship is we won’t pray alongside others in worship services. However, I cannot stress enough that only the really really strict ones practice this. Otherwise we will pray with others, it’s more a theological question than not. This is also why we have closed communion, it is a declaration of faith, particularly Lutheran in this case, so we don’t go with others for we don’t believe the same things.
WELS member also. Where praying with others is most likely to come up is some sort of civic event where a speaker wants to lead a prayer, or a coach, or whoever. No, I don't join them in prayer.
It's about fellowship and not about exclusivity.
I grew up non-denominational/baptist and I'm visiting a local WELS church and I'm quickly falling in love with it. Bless you brothers and sisters in Christ!
After learning the Church History, especially in America, you begin to realize why the Inquisition came about. Too many pastors when they lack the understanding want to form their own denominations or uproot them.
Proud to be catholic ( converted to it 2023, I am 24 yo 🇩🇪). Despite not being perfect as any institution catholicism is the most observant and also reasonable christian community here
@@karlheven8328 History greatly supports the Catholic Church being the one true Church. Despite the insurmountable odds against it through several crises in history, Holy Mother Church always overcomes it and grows stronger each time because Christ promised to be with the Church. Unfortunately we're facing the greatest crisis in Church history at the moment, but the Church will survive and recover very easily. One day, the modernists shenanigans and Protestant infiltration of the Church will be another footnote in history, in the same regard as the Great Western Schism and the Arian Crisis.
Are you defending the inquisition? That was religious persecution at its worst.
Enjoyed your post. Joined Sola last night on your recommendation....thank you!
Although I am not Lutheran, I know the Lutheran People’s Church of the Faroes (and Denmark as a whole) has gone extremely liberal. But there are many Lutherans that are part of the “mission” revival movement, a more conservative and God-believing tradition within the Church, with roots from Pietism
I am soon to be baptized as a Latvian lutheran, made me very happy to see Latvia on the list, God bless!
NALC Lutheran here. Your assessment of the denomination is correct. My home congregation is a bit more conservative than what is typical in the NALC. We split from one of the largest ELCA congregations in the state in 2010. We’ve grown considerably since then and are thriving thanks to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
As an Anglican who has recently "discovered" Luther, I really enjoyed this. Very useful to find all the variations covered in one video (most focus on LCMS vs ECLA). You mentioned running into some nastiness from LCMS folks online, which reminds me of my own somewhat related experience. My wife and I travel around a lot in the country, and wherever we are we like to try out a new church, and before going I usually pop a line to the church/pastor to confirm times, communion practices, etc. I always get a response, usually from the pastor himself. The only exception, and it happens EVERY TIME, is the LCMS. I have never gotten a response from an LCMS congregation. NEVER. Btw, our best experience has been at an NALC church.
A WELS member, lay minister, and soon councilman. While yes, official statements of our branch warn of participating in worship with other sects, from my experience this isn't something super enforced. We don't have spies watching to see if you pray with a Calvinist haha.
As you know, the WELS uphold strictness in doctrine in order to combat liberal theology. As consequence, you come to two extremes. You can be too light like the ELCA saying it's okay for everyone to have different beliefs, or you can be too strict and say praying with other sects subconsciously invites a sense of full fellowship and unity. While I don't necessarily agree with the degree it is often taken, I'd rather stand with the extreme which cares about unity of doctrine. As result of our Synod's strong emphasis on unity, every single pastor of our churches is taught, believes, and preaches the exact same doctrines to a T. While the LCMS may allow slightly different interpretations here and there, the WELS is as confessional as confessional can get.
People give the WELS and WELS members a bad rep. I've been WELS my entire life and have never encountered such "horror stories". I reckon it may be individuals who are offended by our Synod's strictness. But I could be wrong.
I'm currently visiting a WELS church in my neighborhood and have found it to be the most friendly and welcoming environment. I'm looking forward to attending more regularly
I am wels. Came from a roman catholic upbringing. I love our chruch and school.
Actually- As an LCMS member, you CAN take communion in our service IF you speak with a pastor or an elder before the service. During this conversation, they will ask your understanding of Christ and Communion.
I'm visiting a WELS church and I did this exact thing. I was welcomed to take communion after I spoke with the pastor about it.
Additionally, over the last year I finally came around to submitting to the biblical teaching of the Lord's supper and that it is not just a metaphor, but that it is Christ's body and blood and he is present in it. Let me tell you, I felt an overwhelming peace fall over me when I received communion. Praise God!
The Church of Sweden is so rich in history and has sooo many beautiful churches, that Swedish believers should feel obligated to fight the corruption! 🇸🇪✝️
Biblical teaching is way more important than pretty churches. Otherwise we might go to Rome or the East after all. I am glad Sweden has the Missionsprovinsen and they even have their own seminary now.
@@lutherserbe6435 Imagine if the apostles and church fathers had that attitude. Paul preached and worshipped for months in Synagouges. If churches can be saved from literal demon worship - they can also definitely be saved from unbelief. Otherwise, we might as well splinter into a thousand little McDonald's churches like the nondenoms.
I'm open to supporting Missionsprovinsen, but not planning on leaving anytime soon.
@@CheekyHaggis They actually had that attitude. In the bible you can see how one should avoid false teachers and have no part in them (Eph.5:11, Rom.16:17-18, 1.Thes.5:21, 2.John1:10) who says that the synagogues were opposed to the Word of God? The ones Paul preached at accepted him and the gospel and he taught them. Adding to that, if you do that openly in the mainline churches you will get kicked out anyway. Especially as a Pastor. Thats why nearly noone is doing it and even the remnant of the conservatives are hiding. Thats how the Missionsprovinsen got founded. They actually had the guts to speak out and they got excommunicated for it.
Also the early church followed this principle. When the church was largely taken over by Arians, the faithful Christians and Bishops DIDN'T have communion with them. And even before the Pastors were required to give a certificate that they were doctrinally sound and faithful Christians to commune somewhere else (See Werner Elerts article on early church fellowship). You now literially have communion with people who deny the resurrection and are trans.
The early house churches were not gothic cathedrals either. We are not Romans or Easterners who are (often) blind because of aesthethics. Also how do you wanna raise your kids in such an envoirment? How should they find good partners? If you hear shi*t every week your faith is in serious danger.
@@lutherserbe6435 might be the case but alot of these churches are over 800 years old. It's like erasing history if they disappear.
I would love to see a methodist version of this. I know you touched on them in the historically black churches but personally as methodist who is in interested in theology I would be very interested in see that video.👍
1:40 Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LCMS) [A]
4:49 Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) [A]
6:51 Evangelical Church of the Augsburg Confession in Slovakia (the only Lutheran church in Slovakia) [A]
8:48 American Association of Lutheran Churches (AALC) [B]
10:04 North American Lutheran Church (NALC) [B]
12:14 Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ (LCMC) [C]
14:23 Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) [D]
17:13 Church of Sweden [F]
19:11 Evangelical Lutheran Church of Latvia [S]
Don't forget about the ELS. We're in fellowship with the WELS, just smaller and historically Norwegian. And we are pretty exclusive, but to clarify: we can still pray with others, and even do community work, but not in an official capacity. Like if we were to hold a food drive, we'd do it with the sister WELS/ELS church in the town over, not the pentecostal church down the street. Anyways, awesome video 👌
I'm ELS too. Glad for your plug!
I am Slovak, and Im one of the evangelical-lutheran christians and I will soon get baptized, God bless you all✝
Boh ta boženja brat!
The LCMS was drifting into liberalism. However, we were lucky and a conservative Lutheran took over Concordia Publishing House and removed all the theological liberalism. Along with that was some key changes in upper management in the church structure. Recently Pastors and Church members of LCMS are actively fighting some internal battles with a few liberalized schools and practices. If you are apart of this denomination, please keep your eyes out for heresy. Sadly we are in the process of rooting out internal theological subversion.
Never expected my country to be in one of your videos lol
Rev. Chris Rosebrough of Fighting For The Faith/Pirate Christian Radio, one of the greatest forces on the Internet fighting against Word-of-Faith and The New Apostolic Reformation, is also AALC.
Why do you prioritize traditionalism over isolationism (LCMS and WELS vs. LCMC)? I am curious. Christian unity is a big thing for me.
Speaking from a WELS perspective (not a pastor), I see that throughout history, whenever doctrinal disagreements have been allowed for the sake of fellowship, the result is a massive hit to doctrinal purity over time (just look at the mainline US Protestant denominations and things like the Porvoo Communion). Additionally, as briefly mentioned in the video, many of the immigrants who went on to found Lutheran synods in America were doing so because they were fleeing from the Prussian Union, where the state forced Lutherans to merge with Reformed (for the state church). By no means do we hold that anyone outside of our denomination does not have salvation, but putting yourself in a situation that historically has led to doctrinal erosion would be to us like standing on the edge of a cliff when there are high winds that are changing direction, you aren't guaranteed to fall off but why even risk it. (Hopefully that makes at least some sense.) God bless!
As a Swedish student of theology and accepted priest candidate in the church of Sweden, I would like to add some nuance. Our church is very liberal, but saying there is no conservative group is not true. We are quite a few and growing. I understand that you might not see us as conservative since almost everyone believe in female priests but there i still a pretty big and growing number of people who don't support gay marriage, who believe alot of things that you talk about. The truth is that the church of Sweden is very broad, we havee oveer 5 million members so of course there i going to be big differeences between people, but also between different diocese. (Also, a teechnicallity, thee church of Sweden is not a State church, we were seperated from the state the year 2000
Hello Redeemed Zoomer it could be lovely if you did a video about Anglican sub-denominations tierlist!
I know there is definitely a movement in Gen Z that is craving the traditional, but I would strongly avoid dismissing it as a fad: tis no bad thing to encourage people seeking absolute Truth in Jesus that has persisted through all ages, especially in times so crazy as the present
Don't get me wrong I completely support that movement. Just want to direct it to traditional Protestantism instead of Orthodoxy
@@redeemedzoomer6053“traditional“ protestantism isn’t traditional. what we mean by traditional is following the tradition and practices of the apostles. something that lutherans do not do
@@redeemedzoomer6053 Why direct to Protestantism if you consider Orthodoxy as apart of the true Church?
@@comicsans1689 cuz it’s not the only true Church
@@redeemedzoomer6053 But if it is apart of the true Church, then it is just as valid as Protestantism in your view. Therefore, why try to steer someone to a particular church like the other options are inferior or invalid? Shouldn't you support people picking one of the "true churches"?
Love your videos! Keep up the great work! Just wanted to let you know you forgot the ELS (Evangelical Lutheran Synod). We're a smaller Lutheran churchbody, but we're about the same size as the AALC that you listed. We're in the same Confessional Lutheran family as LCMS and WELS. So I'd hope that we would get an "A" rating from you too. 😉 Thanks again for a good breakdown of the various Lutheran churchbodies!
LCMS here. I love you and pray for you and I share your videos all the time. I'm alright with young earth as long as you aren't a strict Ken Hammist. That's just silly.
I'm LCMS and disagree with your assessment of the denomination. They are quite welcoming, and have ever sped along my catechesis for the sake of getting me to the Lord's Supper quickly.
I've been visiting a local WELS Lutheran Church and I'm really liking it. In practice, they allowed me to participate in communion, I just had to speak with the pastor about what we do and don't believe communion is.
As a Lutheran from the german EDK I am sad to see the failure of our church to stay conservative. I am thinking about changing my denomination because of it :(
NOOOO you gotta stay and fight. Reconquista forever
Mach die evangelische Kirche des Deutschlands toll! (I assume you speak German.)
Falls es eine SELK Kirche in deiner nähe gibt guck doch mal dort vorbei. Wir sind auch nicht ohne unsere Probleme (den Katholiken gehts aber ähnlich in diesem Land, sogar schlimmer wenn ich das so behaupten darf) aber haben keine Frauenordination z.B. und sind eine Bekenntniskirche im Gegensatz zu EKD.
@@redshoes23plays38 Ich werde es versuchen
@@cyperuzz7247would you like to join our european reconquista? We have about 40 Germans in our movement, including some pastors
This was a very accurate portrayal of the different Lutheran denominations. One thing to know is that the LCMS and AALC are in communion with each other - we agree on the same doctrine, pastors can preach at each others churches, and we can receive the sacraments from each others churches. We are also in Communion with the Latvian Lutheran Church.
Very good video. Have really liked your tier list stuff.
As a catholic, i hope all will convert to catholicism/eastern cath. But i have great love and respect to you my protestant brothers and sisters in Christ. Be strong! do not get discouraged
I converted last month🇩🇪🙌❤️. So happy . we must fight for tradition
Catholic doctrine is Biblical, read your Bible and you will become Lutheran.
@@ConfessGospel ?
And we hope you join us in the Evangelical Catholic Church later called Lutheran.
Appreciate you calling out lcms members who are less than polite and pointing out that they don't represent the church as a whole. My experience has been very positive when learning about, conversing with and ultimately joining them. And it has with the reformed branch too. My spiritual elder and best bud who first pointed me towards Christ is a Presbyterian and hes excited that my family and i are becoming lcms because he loves talking theology and knows lcms in our area are theologically nerdy and firm in their position but also talkative. Im sorry some bad apples ruined the bunch in others experience. Guess i dont speak for all in my denom but our church families get along great in our area and there is much love between us
As an LCMS Lutheran, thank you for making this video, I learned a lot about all the other sub-denominations
Have you done a video about Byzantine Catholics (aka Greek Catholics) yet? Part of my family continued in the Greek Catholic tradition even after coming to America from Slovakia. May provide some insights on possible roads reconciliation and reunification.
Many times you say throughout this Video about how many liberal churches do not ordained woman. I am a Lutheran. Lutherans highly value the words of the Bible especially the gospel. We still value the law (Old Testament) but no where in the gospel does Jesus speak against women in faith. The main argument about the ordinance of woman is in 1st Corinthians especially.
An example from the words of Paul in 1st Corinthians 14:34-35 34 Women[a] should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
These words Paul speak are just outdated. Christians are the followers of Christ. The gospel is the most important section of the Bible to us because it is the word of our lord. These words were written by a follower of Christ many years after Christ dies.
Throughout the gospel Jesus says that „men lead through loving service and women support that leadership.“ Isn’t preaching the gospel a way that woman can support this service?
I am not trying to anger anyone or cause an argument I’m just simply trying to see the other side. If you hav read this entire comment and have differing views can you share them? (And I am not much of a liberal when it comes to Lutheranism I would say I’m more in the center of right and left)
From Finland: The Church of Finland I would put in maybe C or D tier. It has women priests, and a ton of unbelieving / very arrogantly blasphemous pastors. But gay marriage is not _yet_ allowed (when it is it will be D or F tier for sure), and there are many conservative revivalist movements within it, which means that where ever you live, there is a good chance that you can find a conservative Lutheran community. But I am in a small conservative Lutheran church that split 25 years ago do to female pastors. Of course that goes against your reconquista ethos, but at the same time, I get to be in a lively close-knit community, which I have no shame inviting people into, and where I can raise my future children without fearing what will be said from the pulpit.
I have. And I admire their community and conservatism and I love their hymns. But a big part of their faith is an exclusive understanding of the church (nobody else is saved except laestadians) which I cannot bring myself to believe. And I don't want to larp something that I don't believe.
@@joeloliver9544 Glad to help!
If you wanted confessional lutheran in findland. You can contact bishop pojola
I'm Slovak and recently I've become more interested in religion, I'm looking into quran atm but I'm just beginning there. Kudos to you for doing this content!
Koran?
@@TheLincolnrailsplitt yes
😑I thought Islam was restricted in Slovakia
@@NoQuestionsAskedd what are you talking about?
@@alphacentauri214 Slovakia is extremely Islamophobic
Hey Redeemed zoomer, great video. I was looking at your map of the Lutheran churches, and I strongly recommend you add Mount Olive Lutheran Church to the map. It's a great LCMS church in Loveland/ Campion Colorado( different websites list it differently for some reason), and there aren't a ton of options listed there.
As an LCMS seminarian I can understand the unfriendliness. Thanks for the good word you put in for us!
I completely understand why ELCA is in D tier, I'm very lucky to go to a more conservative leaning ELCA congregation. No pride flags, beautiful worship, and preaching of the Word. I know my church is in the minority of the denomination. I'm also a former PCUSA member, so I understand your struggle as well.
As an LCMS member I'm sorry to hear that you've had that experience with LCMS members online.
I’m an Australian of half Latvian descent and although I’m not practicing (but I do plan to start to after i finish my exams).I way baptised as an infant in an Anglican Church but I never really had much experience of church as a child but I have always believed in God. My first real ‘true’ in my feeling experience of church was a few months ago in a Latvian Lutheran Church in Australia near some relatives as we had family over from Latvia at the time and they had brought their infant daughter for a baptism at this church. It was during this baptism and the overall service that I felt this feeling inside my chest of reassurance for a few fleeting seconds. This experience for me personally was sort of in my opinion rediscovering my faith and to gain a greater understanding of what it is like to be Christian.
Lai Dievs svētī Austrāliju
Lai Dievs svētī Latviju
As a wels member we believe we should not pray with those who are firmly in a faith that is not the same as ours. However, if we are ever trying to guide someone with a weak faith or are teaching someone about God's Word then of course we pray with them. And there are other synods both in the US and abroad that we are in fellowship with, its not just the WELS
So, would you pray with an LCMS member then?
I've been a lifelong Minnesotan and a liftlong Lutheran. I'm very knowledgeable about every Lutheran church body the Redeemed Zoomer has spoken about here. He has not included all Lutheran church bodies, but his comments are quite accurate
Happy WELS member here. Hi!
I drive 45 minutes to go to an LCMS church and it's worth it!
I was baptized as a Lutheran, LCMS. My step-father comes from the Dutch Reformed Church, my mother was also Lutheran, my biological father was raised Catholic but turned away from the church he was saved and came back to the church and became a Southern Baptist. Now where would such a diverse family of Christians go to church, I hear you ask? As Presbyterians of course! And to add to that, the majority of my friend group is various flavors of just about every sort of protestant you could think of, Catholic, and even east Orthodox! I couldn't imagine having not having fellowship with anyone but my own denomination!
Much love and prayers from Slovakia
As an lcms lutheran, I apologize if any of my comments on your videos sounded nasty. We tend to have very strong convictions and sometimes it can come across as nasty and hard-headed unfortunately. Definitely an issue that needs worked on.
Based on your explaination on liberal and conservative churches, i actually realyy value beeing liberal
Edit: i am german
The real question here is; how would Luther tier this list? 😂 I suspect it would not be as generous. 😂
I am a member of an LCMS church and am going to give my reactions as I watch.
A:
LCMS: Sweet, you like us. The thing about people online being mean...fair. We are the most aggressive in defending sound doctrine and can be kind of grumpy about it. Directness and abrasiveness are part of our heritage (Germans are known for it; people from St. Louis, Chicago, and that whole area of the Midwest are known for it). That is massively amplified on line, as anything bad tends to be. It's just our culture, so I hope you didn't take it personally. You didn't have any doctrine issues with us, though, which is cool.
WELS: You are correct about everything. I was a member at a WELS church for a couple years (the LCMS church in my college town sucked), so they are exceptionally friendly, but guard themselves very tightly spiritually to where members are discouraged (not forbidden) from even praying with people of other denominations, which I thought was weird until I prayed with some people in an interdenominational thing on campus and they prayed some stuff I wasn't okay with signing my name on, so maybe WELS kind of has a point in using this as a defense against praying with the liberals for blessing Pride events and stuff. I think they go a bit overboard with it, but I see their point.
LCMS & WELS: Neither let's people who aren't members or members of affiliates Commune with us. We believe that the bread, via miracle, is the body of Christ and bread simultaneously. If you understand what we believe and don't believe it, why would you want to Commune with us, anyway? We're clearly crazy to think something can simultaneously be bread, man, and God.
Slovaks: I don't know a thing about them, but you've treated LCMS and WELS fairly, so I'll take your word for it that they're pretty good.
B:
AALC: I agree with you about these guys. Cooper is a good representative and, for a bit, I was assuming he was LCMS because he seems like an LCMS guy, though a little less grumpy...maybe that's the difference. The AALC is people who would be LCMS but just weren't grumpy enough to make the cut. I know there have been a couple disagreements between the LCMS and AALC, but nothing big enough to justify them being separate denominations as far as I know.
NALC: The still ordain women, which is directly contrary to Scripture, but you still put them as B? That’s the first point I’ll strongly disagree with you on. On the matter of splitting, I think you’re right to a degree and I think your denomination may be saved by people like you. I think the ELCA is too far gone and that any real Christian in the ELCA needs to abandon ship. They aren’t a Christian denomination anymore. There may be good congregations or individuals hanging on, but the ELCA, as a whole, has turned its back on God and hardened its heart Pharaoh style.
C:
LCMC: I don’t know them, but will say Lutherans always suck at contemporary worship style
D:
ELCA: I think I covered this in the NALC section. I’d put them as F, but I won’t quibble D vs. F. I do have to thank you, though, for telling me about SOLA. Perhaps the ELCA isn’t quite the lost cause I thought it was. I’ll have to check out their website and see and possibly revise my opinions on it IF they want to abandon enough of the false doctrine that I think the movement is valuable.
F
Church of Sweden: I forgot that they claim to be Lutheran. I say “claim” because we have confessions. It’s one confession, actually; the Augsburg Confession, which says what we are and these guys ain’t it.
S
Latvians: I don’t know much, but I’ve vaguely heard very good things.
Thank you for this video. I enjoyed it and think it was a very fair treatment of us and our apostate sisters. And to learn about Lutheranism, I agree that Cooper has the best videos out there these days.
Christ's peace be with you.
Could you maybe do a Baptist denomination tier list? Also i think it's kind of funny that the Baptists ate called Baptists, when they're like the only denomination that DOESN'T baptize babies
It's because of the vague influence on them from the Anabaptists. They didn't identify as Anabaptists, but they did hold a somewhat similar view on credobaptism, so they wanted to communicate that they were related but distinct. (We're certainly not Coca-Cola, but we are a cola!)
@@MAMoreno oh, that makes sense. Thank you!
@14:53 "Why can't (Christians) affirm LGBTQ persons ... and get with the times? Well, because it's a litmus test"
Exactly. You hit the nail on the head. I don't understand why most people can't see that... Sometimes I feel like Cassandra - from the Greek myth - pointing out why affirming LGBTQ people is a slippery slope which will one day lead to abandoning Biblical theology altogether, only to have most fellow congregants (who are generally good, nice Christians who want to get along) just poo-poo you as a judgmental, prude. IDK
We Catholics are fighting this exact fight now but we will never lose .
African bishops and eastern ones are too based to ever allow any blessings and the church recognizes and will always preach and teach that marriage is only male - female❤
Thank you for helping to promote Lutheranism! God bless you, my Presbyterian brother in Christ.
Still watching this video, but I wanted to correct something at 4:24 where you talk about closed communion. There's sometimes a little bit of a gray area about whether one must believe all the doctrines of LCMS Lutheranism (no more, no less) in order to commune at an LCMS church, or whether it's enough to be Biblically conservative and believe Lutheran Eucharistic theology. For instance, LCMS pastors are virtually unanimous (in my experience) in being willing to commune members of other conservative Lutheran denominations such as WELS. I don't know as much about WELS, but I would think that they're broadly willing to pray (and probably commune) with conservative LCMS Lutherans as well.
Some of this comes down to the fact that for laypeople, membership in LCMS vs. WELS congregations often comes down to geography: If you're a confessional Lutheran and move to a town with only one or the other, you'll typically go to that one regardless of which one you were confirmed in (with the encouragement of your previous pastor!)
As for online representation, I think the "based subculture" of Zoomer conservatism is a thing that transcends denominational lines (and even religious lines--see the state of politically right-wing social media right now). If you want to get a more mainstream picture of LCMS Lutheranism, I suggest you check out the Facebook page called "Confessional Lutheran Fellowship." (Yes, it is a fellowship for all confessional Lutherans, including not only the LCMS but also WELS, ELS, and of course non-US-based Lutheran churches, but they tend to welcome good-faith question-asking as long as you aren't trying to be argumentative or "beat" them in a debate.)
9:54 When it comes to micro-denominations, I agree with the whole sectarianism thing not necessarily being a good witness, but I think there's something else that has made many Lutheran congregations gun-shy about joining larger denominations: Fear of the larger denomination becoming more liberal at some point. Take the history of the AFLC, for instance: The (Biblically conservative) Lutheran Free Church merged with the ALC, which would later merger with the LCA to become the ELCA. A number of congregations that had been part of the LFC didn't want to join the merger, but through legal action they ended up basically having to start over from scratch because all their assets now legally belonged to the ALC because of the merger. (If I'm told correctly, this included even a seminary!) They eventually became the AFLC.
You might think, "Why not just join a major _conservative_ Lutheran denomination then?" But here's the thing: The LCMS has been divided in the past by internal battles over whether it would remain conservative or become liberal. Since these battles didn't finish coming to a head until 1974 (and weren't really resolved until around 2010), _there was a long period when it wasn't obvious that the LCMS would remain conservative._ Actually, even in more recent years there have been some inroads here and there in the Concordia University System (the system of private Lutheran colleges that is run by the LCMS).
So while it's true that conservative Lutheranism is perhaps more divided than it should be, some of that division is because of the desire of smaller Lutheran denominations to maintain self-direction as a way to avoid the risk of getting sucked in a more liberal direction (if any given conservative Lutheran denomination should become compromised at some point in the future).
I left the LCMS to join the WELS. We don't pray or commune with LCMS. Interestingly, the initial severing of alter and pulpit fellowship was caused by a difference on fellowship.
@@craigbenz4835 Does WELS have the same distinction that the LCMS does between members of the _synod_ and members of a _congregation_ in the synod, with only pastors and congregations being members of the synod? Because that might explain some of this. I do know that sometimes, LCMS Lutherans who move to a town with a WELS congregation but no LCMS congregation will--with their pastor's blessing--join the WELS church just because it's confessionally Lutheran.
As a WELS member the praying with people that aren’t your denomination is false we refuse to commune with other denominations because they do not understand the significance we used to commune with the LCMS but they became more liberal but recently they have become more conservative in there teachings and personally I think WELS should rejoin with the LCMS and pressure all the liberal theology out
I'm lcms. I would love if lcms and wels reunited.
WELS and LCMS leadership DO talk to one another. I think it would be safe to say that although we still have some disagreement, we're getting closer to understanding each other's viewpoint while still disagreeing. I believe that we may (if you're young at least) may restore fellowship in our lifetime.
The LCMS has moved back to a more conservative understanding from where they were when the WELS and ELS broke fellowship with them. I look forward to reconciling with LCMS. Many in the WELS don't know it, but waaay back in our past, we were much more liberal in our theology and it was the LCMS that turned us back. We still revere Walther and Preuss and Prang to this day.
NALC - spot on except some of us were thrown out of ELCA for opposing liberal theology, we didn't run away.
Would be interested in hearing how the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland compares to American Churches and especially other European ones.
I think we are more conservative/orthodox than other Nordics at least? I do remember having plenty of women pastors in my childhood... other than that I got no clue
The Church of Norway isn't much better than the Swedish, for some reason the Church follows a "democratic" form, which pretty much has resulted in members who don't even believe in the religion getting a say in Church politics, and even when there is a conservative priest as a candidate for bishopry they suddenly no longer considers "democracy" an important part. Conservative priests are actively being pushed out of the Church and at this point we are soon going to have only female bishops it seems also. Yet, the Church seems absolutely dumbfounded about why people are leaving the Church left and right and why the Churches are getting emptier and emptier, meanwhile they are actively advocating against their own religion. The only true Lutheran alternative are the Læstadians, but those are far from one organized branch and pretty much only operates among the Samis. You have no idea how close I've been multiple times from just acknowledging the reality of Norwegian Lutheranism and converted to Russian Orthodoxy instead.
The Catholic Church here is better than the Church of Norway for sure but often you either have one where they are conservative but only speaks Polish, Lithuanian or some other immigrant language or they change it out weekly, or they speak Norwegian but they are (somewhat) liberal and still hangs up those damn gay flags everywhere. (Obviously that might vary widely, depending on region, that is just what I've noticed from the Catholic Churches I've seen.)
Is there maybe a congregation of the Den lutherske kirke i Norge,
Det evangelisk-lutherske stift i Norge
near you? I guess that would be the best options. Other than that maybe:
Det Evangelisk Lutherske Kirkesamfunn
@@lutherserbe6435 Not sure, but I'll look into it, thanks
There are actually two conservative factions inside the Church of Sweden. The first one is just a few conservative priests who are like your average right-wing american pastor and then they have some ultranationalist priests. One of them even candidated for the far-right Alternative for Sweden party in his municipality. There was a third conservative faction but they broke off and founded their own Church which I believe is called "The Mission Province".
Also, the "Saint Sigfrids Church" on your Historic Churches map is not an actual Luthern church, it is just the building itself that is called Saint Sigfrids Church. It's is now a Russian Orthodox Church called Saint Sergius Russian Orthodox Congregation.
Thanks for doing this. I'm an LCMS pastor, can I get my church on your map?
His comments on my (LCMS) denomination is a reminder for everyone that having charity in your ecumenical discussions is not only important for your denominations reputation but its also what Christ asks of you. Love thy neighbor and thy enemies. Dont let your zeal for right doctrine be a millstone for your neck. If you use personal attacks or cruel language in your defense of the faith then you have betrayed it.
The gate keeping sounds ridiculous to me.
Jesus commands us to be baptized and take communion and then the church say, "Woah there buddy, we can't have the likes of you doing what God said to do!"
I really don't get it at all.
The ELCA, the Extremely Liberal Church of America.
Or rather, the "Earth Loving Church of America." My former ELCA church spent more of April talking about "Earth Day" than Easter.
Future priest in the church of Sweden here. I will begin my theology studies this autumn. I recognise a conservitive wind in my church and in the more conservative dioceses and congregations conservatism is growing. The problem with the church is that it is politically controlled and politicians are not required to have a faith, the only requirement really is that you are baptised in the church of Sweden. Right now and really since the church and the state separated in the year 2000, the left have dominated church elections which have made the church more secular.
I hope to make some sort of reconquista movement when I start at the university!
I'm also a future priest in the church of Sweden and a leftist, I think especially economically left systems align best with christian morals. Why are you so against it?
@MarvinBeak-jg9ol Socialist values tend to replace religion and the Social Democrats have always dominated church politics. Ideology, in particular social democracy, is the reason the Church of Sweden is so secular.
@@ianamante7547 I understand your point but I think we should prioritize the well of the people. It's not like any right-wing parties make things better for the church either. For example this regering gave even less money to restore buildings of the church of sweden
I just got back from my trip to Riga and I get this video recommended, nice. In the Riga Old Town you can't walk 5 minutes without seeing an amazingly beautiful church. It's great!
In the Old Town alone you have the Riga Cathedral, St. Peter's, St. John's, Reformation Church, St.Jacob's Cathedral, St.Mary Magdalene, St.Saviour's Anglican, Our Lady of Sorrows.
All in an area less than 1/4 of New York's Central Park. There are more than 8 churchers per square mile in the Riga Old Town 😂
I wish LCMS was the thing people thought of when you say “Lutheran.” I’m an LCMS seminarian and I just wish I could say Lutheran and have my brothers and sisters in Christ know what that truly means.
The lcms is true lutheranism. We are also the original U.S. lutheran denomination. We can trace our roots back 500 years to Martin Luther.
I am a Slovak Lutheran from Serbia, although I would still consider myself pretty lukewarm... I hope that in time I will turn to God properly 😁
Same with my parents, born in Serbia (back then Yugoslavia) now live in Australia. I can see the attraction towards Lutheranism.
@reformedcatholic457 I have relatives in Australia who moved there from Serbia. Are they in Melbourne by any chance?
Please pray for my girlfriend and me. God has started helping us but we need more help! 🙏🏻✝️
I’ll pray a Rosary for you and your girlfriend
Can you do an interview with ready to harvest channel host? Like to know more about him
LCMS here. It's pretty great here, and I love my church. I am an old earth creationist, and yes, some of us tend to be nasty.
And one of my closest friends is WELS. She is very nice and kind.
It's hard to believe that the same church of Gustavus Adolphus and Charles XII is the same church that Sweden has. Let us invade Sweden!
Here in Finland i fear that swedish theological liberalism will take over the finnish church. Pray for Finland and the nordics!
Lutheranism basically affirms the Council of Frankfort (Carolingian) perspective on images/icons rather than the 7th Ecumenical Council accepted by the RCC/EOCI know you were making a short statement, but Lutheran Jordan Cooper addressed this in a video. And Baptist Gavin Ortlund has really explained the Council of Frankfort as a third way to the dueling councils for/against images.
Bach's music is also a great argument for the existence of God. Also, Lutheranism=Divine Truth.
Catholicism is truth🙌
Luther started turn towards subjectivism and modernism. Even if he was still rather conservative in liturgy aspects
5:40 I go to a WELS church and basically the only isolated thing is communion (Lord's Supper). Family on my father's side is all WELS, mother's side is all Catholic, we'll happily pray and recieve fellowship with one another. Again the only isolation is really just communion, have to agree that the wine/bread IS the body/blood of Christ, anything else fellowship and prayer-wise is fine
Zoomer, Norwegian Catholic here. I am born and raised catholic and my observations on The Lutheran church in Norway are quite similar to yours in Sweden. Wondering if you have any thoughts on the Church of Norway. Love your videos and I saw and liked your talk with Pinesap. I also resonate with you being half Jewish Christian. God Bless You.
Wait how can you say Lutheranism is a solid expretion of faith, that it has differences to presbyteranism AND that both hold the Bible as authority. This cannot all be true, if you disagree one of you or both of you are wrong. This exactly is the problem with holding only the Bible as authority, none of you know how to interpret and implement it by yourselfe. Submit to Rome and Church Christ established! (Sorry for bad english)
I go to an LCMS church.
You’re spot on.
I thought that the Lutherans here in Slovakia are theologically liberal, also that they support women pastors and lgbt (I found that out from google). I'm so glad that it's not true.
There are women pastors and bishops. But no LGBT etc. more similar to NALC than ELCA
Edit: I am Slovak but not from Slovakia but from Serbia. We are historically Lutheran as Slovak exiles because Habsburg Monarchy was counter-reformationist so we were exiled from Slovakia.
@@SlovakLutheranMonarchist Thank you for the answer, but I was a little disappointed that they let women be pastors. Thank you again for the answer and God bless you
The EKD is NOT a church. In Germany the provincial churches have the ultimate authority over their practice. The EKD is an entity of public law to organize the different provincial churches. However! Even though the EKD has this organizational function, they have no lawful and dogmatic authority over the provincial churches. Inside the EKD there are two groups, the Prussian Unionists and the Lutheran League.
Thank you there are 20 different Churches in the EKD