Backcountry Water Treatment, Part 1: Boiling vs Pasteurization
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- Опубліковано 12 сер 2024
- This video is Part 1 in a series. It takes a detailed look at the safety and efficiency differences between pasteurizing vs. boiling water in the backcountry for disinfection. Learn how you can cut your fuel expenditures in half compared to traditional methods that rely on the conventional wisdom. It’s an ultralight solution to an age-old problem.
Also discussed: use and various models of the Water Pasteurization Indicator (WAPI), as well as the Boil 3, Add 1 Method. Which flame is more efficient for heating water, high or low? Find out here!
Lastly, the impact of using pasteurized (instead of boiling) water is examined as it relates to rehydrating backpacking meals (both freeze-dried and dehydrated), and for the drinking of coffee or tea.
0:00 Introduction
3:16 Conventional Wisdom
4:03 Pasteurization (milk)
6:56 Caveats and Conditions
7:34 Log Reduction
9:22 Time-Temperature Profile
11:33 Water Pasteurization
13:22 Challenge of Maximum Efficiency
14:37 Water Pasteurization Indicator (WAPI)
17:04 Testing the WAPI
22:00 Fuel Weight Savings
28:39 Comparing WAPI models
31:11 Boil 3, Add 1 Method
33:23 Rehydrating Meals
38:16 Making Coffee and Tea
40:19 Summary
41:36 Addendum
World Health Organization list of studies:
www.who.int/water_sanitation_...
Did you test to see if the boil 3:1 method was more fuel efficient than just pasteurizing all 4 parts?
That is such an excellent question that I’m embarrassed I didn’t think of it. So, I went down to the basement and checked.
Used the same stove, set to Low. The pot was an MSR 2L Titan (titanium) kettle, without the lid. Water temperature was 47F (8.3C).
Pasteurizing a whole liter of water to 160F (71.1C) took 4 minutes, 45 seconds and used 9g fuel.
Boiling 750ml of water took 5 minutes, 44 seconds and used 12g fuel.
Boiling three quarters of the water took almost exactly a minute longer than pasteurizing the whole amount. And, it used a third more fuel. I was surprised that it was both quicker and more fuel efficient to pasteurize.
Also, I added the 250ml of cold water to the boiling, to see what happened. The resulting liter of mixed water became 165F degrees (73.9C). Then I timed it cooling down. It stayed above 160F for about two and a half minutes. That’s a lot of time spent in a temperature kill zone where you’re getting 1log reduction every few seconds. It may be slower and less efficient, but in the conditions I tested, Boil 3 Add 1 would still be very safe.
@@GearSkeptic You're way ahead of me in your empirical data, but I wanted to add a very small point, just for fun, since you're all about the fun. I had this same discussion many years ago with a close friend as we were exploring various stove fuels. You have carried the discussion on well past where we left off. What I was armed with at the time was that the temp delta is a critical piece of the puzzle. Some science law states that the greater the delta, the higher the heat transfer RATE. Therefore; the closer to your target temp you get the slower the temp rises and the more fuel it costs. I do not have a chart or any graphs to illustrate just how this plays out, but it's true. And it is this data that has driven the MAX FLAME crowd for so long. So you have proven this by the fact that higher flame does boil sooner, but it certainly also comes at a high cost. There is so much wasted heat blasted out the sides that there is an argument for a pinpoint burner rather than a broad coverage style. And use a wider pot rather than a taller pot. Endless tinkering. Thanks for this great video!
Those are the smartest hands on UA-cam.
Just your friendly neighborhood Research Assistant!
I want to see them challenge This Old Tony’s hands to a thumb wrestling match.
As an engineer and recently retired novice hiker - I can't tell you how much I enjoy your videos and how helpful they are. You have provided a valuable resource to all (especially, numbers geeks like me). Thanks for what you are doing.
Thank you very much! That means a lot to me.
Those of us more pedantic who must absolutely positively get to the bottom of things enjoy this!
I don't carry a stove, but I found this to be incredibly entertaining! Thanks for the first aid storage recommendation! XD
Coffee out my nose laughing
This series is a Master Class on making water safe (and usable). It's hard to overestimate how valuable and useful this series is. Thank you for all the hard work you put into this.
Thank you! That is much appreciated, and I am glad if it can help.
Wow man - this is truly some hard work. I hope you reach an excellent amount of views some day for this effort. I will tell all my friends and family about this. Thanks for your research and brilliance!
You are an incredibly gifted teacher. Thank you for sharing your talents with us.
That's how you make an excellent and complete informative video. Loved the scientific approach
Thanks! That is much appreciated.
..you are first to determine fuel settings and savings.
I like your methodical approach.
Thank you!
best channel ever, thanks for existing.
It’s the least I can do 😋
Good stuff once again. Thank you for taking the time to make these videos.
This video, like all your videos are enlightening. This particular one is interesting in two respects.
As a thru hiker, knowing I can get more uses out of my fuel canister means I won't agonize over how much fuel I have remaining. I typically only use my canister for dinner. This means my canister should last a couple weeks when I hike the AT next month.
I decided to try your experiment. I added 500ml water to my titanium pot, turned on the stove just ever so much, and deposited a thermometer. It took 8 minutes to get to 160F. That could be that it's 7am, we live in a cabin and still a bit cool inside...maybe 19C. Results? Weighted my canister before and after, and lost a mere 4g of fuel.
This video may have another use for us. We live off grid, draw our water from lake. Of course, like most people, we always bring water up to a boil..even for washing dishes. I think now how much propane we must use, but now I wonder why not just heat water to 160F??
Btw, purchased the WAPI off Amazon...thanks for the tip. Will be testing it before I set forth on the trail in 39 days.
Awesome videos,!!
That’s very interesting! Thanks for sharing!
Thank you for your time and effort and for not begging online for handouts to support what is obviously something that you enjoy doing.
this is by far the best informed and best presented information on purifying water that i've ever seen. you are truly a blessing to disseminating complex issues in a way that's easy enough to grasp, but without losing rigorous standards.
Thank you! That is very kind, and I really appreciate it!
Spinal Tap reference had me rolling! Thanks for the great information!
I really appreciate your style, thorough yet easy to follow. Thank you.
Toooooo thorough!!! Best backpacking UA-camr!!! 🙌
This was incredible … great work and thanks for doing/sharing this info !
Amazing tips and excellent presentation! Your scientific approach to backpacker topics should get an award for blowing so many minds.
Thanks!
GREAT video and information!! Thanks for your exacting service!
Thank you for the research and work you put into all your videos!
You are very welcome!
This may be my favorite UA-cam video EVER.
😁
This is perfect. You manage to answer every question arising in my mind just after it pops up. Very helpfull content and a joy to watch.
Thank you very much!
SuperWAPI is in my cart Thank You I’m looking forward to your future videos 🥰👏👏👏👏👏👏🐾🐾👣 I’m going to start experimenting with my coffee
Very late to this particular party, but an important topic and excellent presentation. Looking forward to watching the rest of the series.
Those plastic housing are practically bulletproof. I would like to see you do a video on trying to break one by dropping it from different heights and maybe even run over it with a car.
Fascinating stuff. Thank you for sharing!
With the situation here in europe I am preparing a bugout bag. Your videos on nutrition and water safety are proving invaluable to me as someone that has little to no experience hiking
I’m glad if it can help! Stay safe.
Great research, thanks for your time!
Much appreciated. Extremely useful information. I got 3 WAPIs myself and i am impressed how accurately they work. What is great about them is that they free you from bringing a metal container that resists a direct flame. You only need a container that can stand 70 C, which may include plastic or silicone containers. But i am still on the quest for a light, foldable container suitable to water.
Now that's intriguing. I'd be interested to know if/when you find something suitable.
How would you heating a silicone or similar material container to pasteurized water?
These are absolutely incredible videos! I am in awe, and you’ve helped me prepare so much for the John Muir Trail. I would love to see a more in depth look at fuel efficiency at different flame settings with variables like different drives/pots as well as wind and temperature.
Yes! I definitely have planned further fuel testing with a variety of variables. I like your idea of including temperature. Thanks much!
Woke up this morning still thinking about this and all the variables involved. The remaining fuel in the canister, elevation, and the fuel temperature while positively correlated with the ambient temperature all probably have fascinating implications. I’m sure at some point PV=NRT starts to have a big part of it all.
Other variables are like jetboil’s proprietary flux rings. Or how much do cozies or heat shields help in different conditions. There really is so much here and I truly believe you are the only one to dig into it.
I can’t wait to see what you come up with for that topic.
Sigh. It just went from a video to a three part series…maybe four. 😗
@@GearSkeptic Oh man I hope your still thinking about making this idea into a series. I have a MYOG aluminum 3D printed heat exchanger pot I've been working on and after discovering you today and binging your videos, Im half tempted to hold off making progress on the project and waiting to see if your insights into pots and stoves affects any of my design decisions. 😂
I am! Working on a test protocol and gathering the stuff. Santa just brought me MSR’s heat exchanger, as it happens. If you’re not familiar, check it out. It is a zig-zag looking aluminum affair with an adjustable clamp, so it can fit around the outside of various pot sizes.
I got it to compare to the MSR Reactor, Jetboil stuff, and some budget Amazon knock-offs.
Spectacular! Thank you.
You are most welcome!
Thank you again for such a thoughtful, informative video. I love the 80s references too.
You are most welcome!
Thank you very much. You will save me a lot of nafta when I will melt snow to make water next week. Usually, It take me 15 min and 50ml of nafta to have 1L of water that rolling boil for 1 min with my stove at max!!! I will try the pasteurization for sure. By the way, I listened all your videos and I really appreciated. Bravo!
Thanks very much, and I’m glad to help!
Brilliant channel.
Thank you so much for your info for the WAPI.
You are most welcome!
Great videos with loads of valuable info. Im a fan
Thanks very much!
Bro, your channel is a treasure
Thanks! I appreciate that!
🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
super awesome information, thank you for taking the time to make the content 🙏🙏🙏🙏
You are very welcome!
Thank you for this excellent explanation.
You are most welcome!
Great job mate!
Love your video, thank you!
OUTSTANDING!
The increased efficiency of a lower intensity burn is a factor in favour of alcohol stoves, if time is not a factor. Great video !
I do plan to test alcohol burners once my canister stove series is done!
Another amazing video!
Thanks very much!
@@GearSkeptic one thing I was wondering was if the 3-1 method required a waiting time after putting in the cold water.
It should, and it would be based on the resulting temperature in your mix. When developed, they tested it by adding 34F water (almost freezing) to boiling at sea level (212F). Calculations showed it should result in 167F water, but they measured 172F (probably from residual heat in the pot). That’s well above the 161F needed to pasteurize in 15 seconds. So, wait that long and you’d have a good margin of safety above just 5log pasteurization.
At altitude, your boiled portion is getting cooler. Their calculations say you should still get at least 150F water up to 13,000 feet (4000m). But water at that temp should sit for 5 minutes. That might be pushing it, because in that 5min it will be cooling down. You’d want a pot cozy and hopefully the cold water wasn’t so close to freezing.
I love this man.
Great info!
Subscribed!! Great info. Thank you!
You're welcome, and thanks!
The wapi container ultralight dig was perfect.
So I got a WAPI from Sunflair and it weighs 4 g. Then I checked the kitchen drawer and found a simple dial-gauge candy thermometer, so I went online and found a dial thermometer that measures from 0 to 220 F and also in Celsius -10 to 100+ C. It is model Escali AH3 that measures 6" long, weighs 16 g, doesn't use a battery, and is dishwasher safe. I am going to use it as a tent stake, too, so that means exchanging out a tent stake for this thermometer does not increase my pack weight!!! :) It can also be used as one-half of a pair of chopsticks. Thanks again for this video because I would not have discovered the joys of measuring my water temperature in real time.
That’s outstanding! Now I have to get one!
Just checked Amazon. They have it. Also have the model AH2. Looks like the same probe length and temperature range, but the dial is only 1” in diameter (the AH3 says it is 1.75”). A gram lighter?
@@GearSkeptic might be 5 g lighter, so let me know please, thanks!
Ok, the AH2 weighs 8.2g, just the probe. It came with a plastic pocket clip sheath that weighs another 4.5g. It has a 5" probe, and the head is another 3/8" tall (it's plastic cover is domed to function like a lens, makes the smaller dial easier to read).
Nice little thermometer. Thanks for the tip!
@@GearSkeptic Placing my order now! Thanks!
@@GearSkeptic I'm curious how acuate it is. I'm in Canada and the WAPI is a whopping $70 after shipping so a thermometer is a much more attractive solution here. :)
that's ace, the 3:1 method is definitely the hasel free option for me, that's going to save gas, time and a burnt mouth
I appreciate how well researched and imperial focused your videos are! I wonder what impact pot surface area has on fuel efficiency at different burn rates. My intuition tells me that wider pots are exposed to more of the higher flame with less environmental loss.
I’m actually getting the equipment to test this idea! I want to try different combinations of stove burner size, pot size and shape, and flame level. Stay tuned!
Most excellent, best I've seen on subject. Ordered a WAPI. You might be willing to answer the question of how many liters of water need to be boiled in an aluminium pot to make up the difference in weight between an aluminium pot and a titanium pot, in fuel burned, if in fact the difference in heat transfer between the two metals translates into a fuel savings.
I do actually plan to (eventually) test aluminum vs titanium vs stainless steel. Working on heat exchanger pots right now, but that is on the list!
I LOVE THISSSSSSSS SOOO MUCH!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!
You are most welcome!
respect to all your contents
Thank you
@@GearSkeptic I'm also very interested in why the Jetboil Micromo is much more efficiency than the Firemaple Petrel while they have the same pot size and both made by aluminum, I tested the Petrel pot with the micromo's stove, it still cost 5g+ fuel to boil 500ml water.
Great presentation. I found this video especially useful since I primarily backpack with an alcohol stove. I noticed long ago that the quickest-burning alcohol stoves (yes, I have many) use too much fuel to be practical for real use. There is an ideal sweet spot between performance and efficiency, even more so when applied in the context of water safety. Stoves such as the Trangia have most likely stood the test of time because of their efficiency/performance value. It would be great to see a presentation on alcohol stove performance relative to water safety and dehydrated food preparation. I'm a new subscriber, I look forward to diving in.
After the canister stove series I'm working on now, I'd like to look into other stove types including alcohol, solid fuel (like esbit), and wood stoves. Now I just need more time!
@@GearSkeptic Today I have made a modified beeswax WAPI and tested it using an alcohol stove. Results (boiling 200 g of water, starting temperature 20,1 °C in a stainless steel cup without lid, weighing 124 g):
To achieve pasteurization, it took 4,5 g of denatured ethanol using wapi indication, final temperature of water was 72 °C. Time needed was 4:01
To boil at 99 °C for 60 sec, it took 9,1g of ethanol, time needed was 6:59.
So in conclusion: it still takes half the fuel and a little more than half the time to pasteurize, rather than boil.
Amazing work sir.
Thanks much!
It’s actually quite fascinating watching this again after watching your latest series on fuel efficiency with different pot sizes and stove types!
I have to ask, what’s your educational background/what do you do now? I shared this with my daughter who is just finishing a BSc in biochemistry and the work you’ve put in on your channel is on par with getting a degree!
Good stuff, thanks! I've done similar experiments with similar results, but have had a hard time convincing people to use a lower gas flow rate. Now I can just send them here to watch your video. Around minute 20:00 you got into the 5 g to 7 g of fuel used, but did not state that the volume (weight) of water was less than 350 g (from the marking on the beaker). Also you talk about heat loss out the top, but did not mention a lid. And your pot was rather small in diameter which lets flames lick up the sides. I like a pot diameter of at least 11 cm because a 230 g net weight fuel canister will fit inside it.
Anyways, with my stoves, my tests result in 5 to 7 g of gas to boil 500 mL of water, I think the variation is mostly caused by the starting temperature of the water. I also noted that the sound of heating water that my covered titanium pot makes changes at about 170 deg F, so I have been using that change of sound to help decide when to turn off the flame. Finally, I see this is Part 1, so maybe Part 2 will cover some of the things I mentioned and not just chemical disinfection. Thanks!
I definitely want to explore this topic further. I’m thinking of a dedicated video for it. There are a lot of permutations I’d like to try: different pot sizes, lid on/lid off, different burner sizes, pot materials (titanium vs stainless vs aluminum, but also maybe thicknesses from different brands, and more. Of course, all at low, medium, and high flames.
@@GearSkeptic Thanks for the reply. Some preliminary work has appeared at atlasguides.com/5-stove-tips-that-will-save-you-fuel/ and a couple other articles there.
I love your videos.
Thanks! I appreciate that.
So i just returned from a three-day hike, using my recently purchased WAPI. I give mixed results in the field, as i sat at the picnic table heating water in my 650ml pot, i could either monitor the WAPI or keep the lid on the pot. Not sure it was useful or saved any fuel. However was a great conversation starter.
Nice to see scientific confirmation of things I’ve pretty much just assumed intuitively. I’ve always felt that turning the heat up to 11 was wasteful and counterproductive. And if I’m safely cooking raw meat at home to only 165ºF, why would I need to heat water or especially precooked food another 50ºF? The water for freeze-dried food doesn’t even need to be heated: it merely reconstitutes more thoroughly more quickly if you do… but if you boil it you then have to wait longer for it to cool!
Your videos bring joy to this hiking geek! The WAPI idea seems great except for one practical question. Most hikers heat water in an opaque pot with a lid, not in an uncovered glass beaker. How do you monitor the WAPI under real trail conditions?
Thanks!
I just check it occasionally. It does require lifting the pot lid, but once you’re familiar with about how long it usually takes, you can start guessing pretty closely so it doesn’t take a lot of tries.
I'd be curious to know the efficiency of the "boil 3 add 1" method versus pasteurizing all 4 parts. Does fuel consumption scale linearly with temperature as you approach a boil? Or is there a logarithmic drop off as you approach a boil which, instead, would make a full "4 part" pasteurizing more efficient than boiling the 3/4 of the parts?
Edit: Either way, you've earned my sub with this series!
Thanks! Check my reply to the pinned comment. I went back and tried it to see.
I wonder if a simple bimetallic strip thermometer might be simpler and more precise and possible less expensive than a WAPI. But then I wonder about how best to put it in the water, if the probe would be long enough. Or if one needs to drill a hole in the pot lid. Or if one needs to DIY a float out of styrofoam, but if that would melt if it got too close to the side and if a silicone wristband would work as a bumper. Then I wondered when we could get cookware made from "transparent aluminum" then I remembered reading an article about the recent development of Aluminum Oxynitride, and now I'm smiling and hoping that a camping/bug-out-bag will let me "live long and prosper."
This comment has gone where none has before.
I've heard of people using nitinol (memory metal) as a WAPI. Seems a much simpler and more elegant solution. Cost effective too!
Interesting! I wasn’t aware there was some available in the applicable temperature range.
@@GearSkeptic Somebody was working on something here on UA-cam. I think there's a paper on it out there somewhere...
Btw, a proper beaker would likely be made of borosilicate glass which is formulated to be resistant to thermal shock.
Agreed! That was sort of a novelty beaker, with unknown glass type.
I was originally going to skip right to your video on microfiltration, but I learned so much from this, and it's useful information to keep in my back pocket in case a filter fails and I run out of iodine tablets (or can't stand the taste). Perhaps I missed it, but does particulate matter in the water have a significant effect on pasteurization time/log reduction?
It shouldn’t. It is considered one of the advantages of heat. It won’t remove the particulates, but they don’t hinder the process. As far as iodine goes…stay tuned for Part 2! 😁
@@GearSkeptic That makes sense. I guess it's kind of like microbe sous vide in little pockets of dirt.
I love that analogy 😁
I wonder how much difference the jetboil / windburner style of stoves make on fuel consumption when pasteurizing water. They are heavier but if they save enough on fuel it might be worth it.
I’m curious, too! Already planning a series of tests on that.
The MSR windburner is far faster to boil than any other method I’ve tried.
To calculate the resulting temperature with the Boil 3 add 1 method you can use this formula: (750ml * BoilingTemp + 250ml ColdwaterTemp)/1000ml.
At sea level and 1°C cold water you get: (750ml * 100°C + 250ml * 1°C)/1000ml = 75.25°C.
At 3962m over sea level you get (750ml * 86.6°C + 250ml * 1°C)/1000ml = 65.2°C which seems a little bit too low in my opinion.
When boiling 800ml and adding 200ml you can bump up that temperature to 69.5°C
Nice! Thanks.
You could have quantified the “power” of the stove by fuel use in g/min.
In the institutional backpacking program I administer, we teach boiling the water and then dipping eating utensils in the boiling water to sanitize or disinfect them. I've heard some people say 10 seconds is sufficient while others say 30 seconds per item. I'm curious what your thoughts would be on this? And could some of the items from this video be applied in that scenario.
As I check around, all the hits I’m getting for tools are for full sterilization, which is a much higher level than just disinfection. To speculate, it would depend (at least a little bit) on how long it takes your utensil to heat up to the water temperature upon dipping it in. I think most ultralight aluminum camp utensils are thin enough to heat up within a second or two. 10 seconds of immersion would likely contain several seconds over 200 degrees. That should be plenty of logs’ worth of reduction.
I suppose thicker spoons that heat up more slowly could be an issue. Maybe porous surfaces (like wood spoons) could be an issue. The way I would deal with that is: don’t wait until boiling and then dip. Put the utensils in the water while heating, enjoy all the pasteurization while on the way to boiling and by the time you get there, it should be safe.
It'd be interesting to note some temperatures visually. A full roiling boil is pretty clear at 100C, but what temperatures do small bubbles appear, etc. How much does this vary by altitude?
I prefer cool coffee, but I has to go to boiling to get to where I need to go,and how do I cool it on a hot desert day ?
I always look for small bubbles.. I googled and found: Bubbles can form as low as 160 F #score
Of course, you could just take one of those resin boiled egg timers and wait till it shows "medium". Sure it's 28 to 35 grams but they're cheap and easily available.
One of the bacteria in the chart (Legionella spp.) inactivates at 80 C, in 18-42 seconds per log, isn't that a problem with the wapi?
I couldn't access the chart through the link by the way, it might have been moved or deleted.
Good question. I guess it could be. Though, the focus was on waterborne pathogens, as in: ones you get sick from by drinking infected water.
Legionella does live in water, but it is technically transmitted by inhaling the droplets or mist of that water, not ingesting it into your stomach. It's a kind of flu that affects the lungs.
Does that mean I can argue it doesn't really count? :)
I referenced this Mayo Clinic article:
www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/legionnaires-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20351747
Regarding the dehydrated meal: What happens if you put the food in with the water from the beginning so it rehydrates while it heats? How does it affect fuel use? Does it improve rehydration rates without boiling (or waiting as long)? Are there any concerns about reducing the kill rates? (I don't know why there would be, but still seems worth it to ask)?
I would be willing to be that it does reduce "cook" time. After all, you can cold soak if you wait long enough.
@@GearSkeptic The question is, how much does it increase the time to heat it up to safe temp, and how much does that reduce the reconstitution time?
@@mlangley7019 Interesting problem that may not be as simple as overall temp.
If you used untreated water and placed food in with it before pasteurization, there could be a concern with pathogens being absorbed and protected before reaching temp. That might require an unspecified amount of extra time to get the very center of all food chunks properly heated and disinfected.
I think I'd avoid that, just for the unknown complication in risk.
The Sports WAPI in particular (30:31) seems to have been a product of North Star Devices. NSD was started by two retired 3M engineers, Robert Nepper and, Bill Stevenson, both MN natives. I don't think Bill is still with us, as he would be in his late nineties now. Robert is or would be about 89. This is likely why we can't find the product anymore.
You can still get the WAPI from Sunflair, fortunately. I just got a spare from Amazon for $15.
It's true. I just see the sports version as slightly more elegant.@@GearSkeptic
FYI: Medium heat can use a great deal more fuel than higher heat in windy and very cold conditions. So, low to medium heat is NOT always more efficient. It depends.
Check out the series on Backpacking Stove Efficiency. There is a great deal of discussion on the influence of pot diameter, burner size, flame level, lid effects, wind effects, and wind screens!
One important technique you didn’t specifically mention is that you could just bring it to a boil and immediately shut the stove off and still be certain that it’s safe to drink. One second rather than one minute.
I was wondering the same thing since this is how I cook rice on my stove top at home.
That looked like a bottle of Justin Cab. I live just a few miles down the road from Justin Winery.
Nice! I've visted Justin a few times and stayed at their inn among the vineyards.
Hi... Mama Gecko here.
In a previously nutrition video you spoke about Mountain House #10 Oz can of freeze dried burger crumbles.
Have you had experience adding this freeze dried prouduct into already dehydrated meals? I dehydrate my own meals and I wondered how long this freeze dried meat lasts UNREFRIGERATED in a vacuum sealed freezer type bag.
I asked Mountain House this question. Their response: for best quality after opening their can of freeze dried burger crumbles, it's best if consumed in 1 week. They speculated it might last 3 months refrigerated.
I'd appreciate any thoughts about this subject.
MG
I’ve never personally had a can open for long, but I did research it.
I know Mountain House says 1 week, but that may be overly conservative. I found a variety of anecdotal reports online of people who say they’ve had opened cans around for a month or more.
Most suggest moisture is key. In dry areas you might be good for a few months. In humid areas, 1 week might be right. Those who use cans regularly say they always make sure to close the container quickly after each use. Some go so far as to reseal the remaining contents each time with a vacuum sealing machine. Others are content to use the original can (which comes with a plastic lid) and toss in a moisture absorber packet.
I don’t remember anyone saying they refrigerate.
@@GearSkeptic thanks for your thoughts. You've become my new Gear Head guru.
I plan to make my dehydrated meals and vacuum seal them with the freeze dried MH burger and with one of those moisture reducing packets
Thanks again!
🦎
Consider carrying silica packets to absorb moisture from the inside of the can?
Is there actually any downside to just using a regular kitchen thermometer? They weigh next to nothing and some thing that many people already have?
Not really, other than maybe you have to leave the lid a little more ajar.
Check out the Escali AH2 thermometer on Amazon. Only $7.99, NSF certified, and it is the smallest, lightest one I could find.
Can you pour HOT water thru you filter to re-generated filter element.
I’ve seen a few manufacturers that say do not use boiling water. It can damage the delicate hollow fibers which are made from polymer that might melt.
I would think warm water is okay, but there is no information on how high the temperature could be before you might get into trouble.
For antimicrobial treatment for storage after use, they say use a chlorine solution like bleach. If the filter is slowing due to calcium build up, the recommendation is to soak it in a vinegar bath, then try back flashing again.
I was listening to Fly Every SZN (only on youtube). Two young men hiked 12 miles into the Rocky mountains to fly fish. One of them became very ill the first day while hiking and it ended the trip for both of them. He ended up at the hospital after a very bad night and an arduous hike out for both (the other guy carried more load) and it was determined he had a parasite. He was sick for a week. He was using a water filter but admitted he must have been careless in his filtration process. At any rate, it ruined their trip. Time, money, and opportunity dashed. In addition he was off work for a week and the hospital bills $$$.
Better safe than sorry!
I have always believed that a lid on a pot would save time and fuel.
Can you use a WAPI with a lid on ? You remove the lid on a regular basis to check the WAPI ?
You can use a lid with a WAPI. The floating design fits entirely inside and a lid can seal normally. But even the wired versions still work pretty well with a lid. The cable is so thin, it does not interfere much.
You do have to lift the lid to check, but the amount becomes limited as your experience lets you estimate “about when”.
Is it possible to get WAPI in glass version?
Interesting question! I have not seen a glass version, but will keep a look out for one.
1. Amazon is going to sell out of SuperWAPI's lol
2. I think this could be very useful for me for those trips when I actually bring a stove (read: winter). I will simply pasturize my coffee and tea water instead of boiling. It's kinda funny because I have typically over the years cut the heat at the first sign of a boil because I just kind of assumed that the whole rolling boil 1 minute thing was totally overkill and that just getting the water really hot was good enough.
For me, the biggest surprise was rehydrating food. I’d always assumed that would be a disaster if it wasn’t full boiling!
@@GearSkeptic Have you ever tried cold soaking? I know it can seem like this weird ultralight thing. And I guess it is. But I've grown to really like it. I actually prefer a cold breakfast (instant coffee and muesli). I don't like the dinners so much, but I love the weight savings.
I have not. I like cold breakfast, too. Usually granola and milk. I’d be okay with cold oatmeal. For dinners, it would be highly particular to the flavor. I could see a cold pasta with veggies, but cold meat dishes not so much.
I would think the danger of using this WAPI device in the field would be more heat transfer between the device and the sides or bottom of a metal pot causing the wax to melt prematurely. To me, the worst case and more realistic field test would be to carelessly drop the device into your cookpot without concern for having it float, or managing the string. If that would still easily achieve proper pasteurization with some margin for error, then it'd be the kind of idiot proof thing to include in your pack to save on fuel. Did you consider that scenario in your testing?
I found it to be accurate and consistent regardless of how arranged in the pot. Bear in mind that the water is highly effective at convection. Think of those videos of how you can actually boil water in a plastic bag over a fire.
Giardia cysts can be reduced by more than 2 log following heating to 56-70°C (I would go with 70ºC) or 10 minutes or by heating water to a rolling boil for 1 minute. This is not the same as pasteurizing milk that has very low initial numbers and is done to extend shelf life not to kill all pathogens. 1-log is 90% reduction, 2-log is 99% and 3-log is 99.9 . . . Obviously the worse the water is the higher log you want. I drink alpine stream water in wilderness areas (say above 10,000 ft) without filtering. If there are cattle there (or were there) I would filter and if there was a trail anywhere up stream I filter. Giardia cysts are heavier than water so if it's a calm lake I take water from below the surface but not near the bottom. With running water it's mixed in. It can only take ONE cyst for a symptomatic infection though it's usually between 1-10
It looks like the Super WAPI is no longer being produced.
What's the perfect temperature for making tea you say? *Laughs in British*
(Bows to the authority)
Question. Raw milk is produced and handled under rules of hygiene. Ground surface water is not. Stream water with a dead animal upstream will have contaminants that heat will not correct. Water from a moving or static force in agricultural or industrial areas can have pollutants that heat will not correct. How are these handled? Thank you.
Courtesy of Half Vast Flying
If you check the next videos in the series, you will find episodes on filtration (to physically remove fine particulates). There is one on Microfiltration (cysts and bacteria) and Ultrafiltration (all the way down to virus size). For runoff from agricultural or industrial areas, check out the Part 5 video on activated carbon filters (to remove chemicals and heavy metals).
Hope that helps!
@@GearSkeptic G’day, Gear. I’m working my way down through. My standby unit has been a FirstNeed purifier for about 10-12 years. It has done a good job for me across the CONUS. I get picky about water. I think back at some that I drank in the Sierras, and glance upwards gratefully. As I go through your studies, I’ll have more questions and comments. My best to you.
Courtesy of Half Vast Flying
Pity this costs €40 on Amazon in the Eu US$45
Coming back to this years later because I found a better option: thermal stickers. Weighs nothing, costs next to nothing.
How’s the accuracy? I got some once. They were worthless.
Mine works fine. I posted pictures with a thermometer today in the PCT Class of 2024 FB group.
@@GearSkeptic Mine works well enough, we'll see how long it lasts.
@@GearSkeptic Mine work. I'll let you know how the durability is.
Lol, _Codex Alimentarius_ is just Latin for "Dietary Book"
No offense but I think you need to learn what continuous flow pasteurization is. Those temperatures will NOT pasteurize your water in that amount of time. Unless you have a very long and intricate tube that almost instantly heats a tiny amount of water to that specific temperature, it will take a LOT more time since you are pasteurize get by batch. (Heating up an amount of water in a pot/container and bringing it to a specific temperature and maintaining that temperature. In a situation like that, boiling would be MUCH faster. The only reason you would pasteurize water would be if you didn’t have a powerful enough heat source. Otherwise, nice videos.
The temperature of pasteurization is independent of volume. If the water reaches that temp, it will pasteurize regardless of how much or the size of the container.
The issue you may be referring to is whether or not ALL of the water in a container will reach similar temperature. That’s only an issue with uneven heat and very large containers. If you put a burner under a 55 gallon drum, sure. The water on the bottom is noticeably hotter than the cool stuff furthest from the heat source. So, for large batches, a continuous flow system provides a fast way to be sure all the water gets to that safe temp.
But, for small volumes this ceases to be a real issue. There is no appreciable temperature differential in a 500ml pot of water on your camp stove. Convection alone will adequately distribute heat. Besides, the floating water pasteurization indicators are on top, where the coolest water resides, so a safety factor is built in.
why not just use an actual mercury thermometer?
Never let the frame reach the side of the pot, that is inefficient and invalidates the test