Sauron wasn't exactly a named "successor" to Morgoth either. He's just one of the few lieutenants who survived the war of wrath and was able to get the orcs back in line again.
I do believe he was a little bit more than just one of the few lieutnants of Morgoth and Morgoth was very aware of this. Sauron was not a red dragon, but very cunning. Something that is needed to lead. But a named successor of Morgoth is a bit unlikely, despite, Sauron having the most potential of all his lieutnants, he is perhaps the most powerful Maiar, like Morgoth was the most powerful Ainur. Don't think there is an equal at all to those 2 Dark Lords. Other then the origins, the characteristics are important too. Sauron was all about order and perfection, and there was no equal in this and the reason why he had all this urge and will to dominate, Arda.
@@zeusapollo6504 i bet ancalagon the black would have been the strongest of them all if he survived, in a strict 1v1 sense. i doubt he could have gotten the orcs in line though
Can't help but imagine the post-Sauron turmoil that must have followed in Rhûn, Harad or Khand, where Sauron was possibly worshiped as a god for thousands of years. Whole societies crumbling, religious castes destroyed, rival warlords and politicians competing for power, and simple folk trying to get by and coming to terms with a completely new world... Probably would be more interesting than whatever Amazon's making is all I'm saying.
I imagine many would have continued worshipping him long after his death. Religions are stubborn things. Especially major religious institutions that span millenia. Rarely are they ever truly dissuaded by minor hiccups like the death of their figurehead. They’ll just insist that either it’s untrue. That the rumours of his death are highly exaggerated and the dark lord simply in hiding. Biding his time and waiting for the right moment to make his triumphant return. Or for the slightly less delusional. They will accept that he truly has cast off this worldly coil, but has transcended to some form of after life. (I was going to say heaven, but what kind of heaven could worshippers of Sauron possibly imagine?) From this afterlife he will be watching them, and judging their deeds, and waiting to meet them for better or worse when they too slough off this mortal coil. No the only way to really kill such a religion is to conquer the civilization of its worshippers, destroy all artifacts and lore associated with it, dismantle its institutions, criminalize his worship and, most importantly, insert a new figurehead to become the new subject of their worship. It could be a god, a person, an ideology or political or economic system. Whatever it is it has to permeate every fascet of their civilization and command the adulation of the masses. But even then; even everything goes according to plan, there will likely still remain cults hiding in the shadows, lurking in the wilderness, or hiding behind closed doors, who are devoted to his worship centuries if not millenia after the ring was destroyed. Religions are, again, VERY stubborn things.
Actually I think the book establishes that Aragorn takes back a lot of Gondor's old territory but doesn't invade Rhun or Harad or Khand because he makes peace with their leaders fairly quickly. The explanation is they were bullied bribed or lied to to fight for Sauron and those who were the most loyal were killed at the Black Gate. And by then they all feared an invasion from Gondor thanks to the Pellanor Fields and the fall of Sauron, but it never came. Aragorn desired to make peace in his time as King of Gondor and rebuild everything he could
Could be a fun setting for a shadow of war game. Fighting against other warlords to gain control of Mordor. You could customize your own warlord and build your own fortress. Obviously it’s against lore, but it would still be a fun setting.
Yeah it's cool. Last I checked Aragon gave the Manish allies of Sauron Mordor after he defeated them in the 4th Age. So them battling for itw control actually makes sense
I thought there was a passage inserted by Tolkien (right around the fall of the tower of Barad-Dur) indicating that Sauron did indeed exert some unifying, possibly even telekinetic, and/or possessive power over his minions in addition to their general fear of him as shown by their immediate dispersal into chaos and confusion upon Sauron’s ultimate demise
I think a plausible possibility would be successor Kingdoms like after Alexander's death, with Sauron's former territories being divided up between his strongest Generals, each holding an uneasy truce with each other until they deemed the time was right to stab one of the others in the back. This would also suit Elessar because divided, none of them could hope to challenge the might of Gondor, leaving him with only occasional raids to deal with, as opposed to another war.
Sauron didn't "need" a successor. Sauron's fight against Arda and even Eru Illuvatar himself was not on the premise of "good versus evil " -- Sauron, himself, saw himself not as a force of evil, but rather as a force of *order.* In Sauron's mind, his fight was always *to establish order* in Arda. When it came to the vast multitude of races that inhabited Arda, he had an incredibly strong disposition for 1 race in particular: Men. Orcs weren't "his" -- they were baggage from Morgoth's era that were left scattered across Middle Earth. But *Men* -- easy to persuade, eager to serve, and unendingly loyal after only a little effort -- were the ideal race to carry the banner of Sauron. Sauron's grand design was to eliminate the "free races" of Arda (or what little remained of them), and for Man to be the predominant intelligent species on Arda afterwards, with himself as their lord and god. As the 3rd Age develops, Sauron's drive to actively destroy the other races diminishes, as he sees that they're *already* starting to die off (or, in the case of the Elves, "fade") on their own -- all he'd have to do is wait. So, his goals pivoted from genocide across Arda to merely conquering lands and kingdoms within it, as he knew that his plan of seeing the "lesser races" wiped out would come to pass regardless. The closest thing he would have to successor would have been Sarumon -- though "successor" here is less accurate than a "business partner." Sarumon would have likely, in time, grown to conspire against Sauron for the sake of his own desires; Where Sauron's primary drive was to impose order, Sauron's primary drive was "*self-enrichment*" -- he would serve Sauron only until there was no further benefit for him to do so, at which point he would have likely tried to usurp Sauron. As the 3rd Age ends and the 4th Age -- the Age of Man -- begins, Sauron's work of establishing a regime of oppressive order across Arda would be self-fulfilling; In Tolkien's limited writings about the 4th Age, he even goes on to tell us as much -- the Light and Magic of the earlier ages has all but diminished and, with it, the wonder and freedom of those ages as well. In place of the light, The Age of Man has instead a shadow that looms over all of Arda -- but not the shadow of some great foe, but rather the shadow inherent in *all* Men -- the same all-consuming desire to establish violent, oppressive order. Even without his hand or influence, Sauron's wishes had come to pass.
@@elijahpassion8862 basically, humans suck and the world is devoid of magic. and the world is a bland hellhole because only greedy stupid humans are here
. . . . I agree with you on all points. But that last bit about Men doing Sauron's will by our very nature... I'd never thought of that. And goddammit, you're right.
Perfectly written. And this goes back to one of the most pivotal and mysterious questions in the Legendarium. How did Tolkiens Version of the Original Sin of Men come to pass?
Interesting vid my friend, thanks again. This provides yet another highlight of just how complex, detailed and inter-related Tolkien's works are. Much like Sauron, JRR never tried to play 'beat the clock'. He took decades to write his legendarium and even then, continued to whittle at it after publication. We are of course the better off for it, as it still strikes me as one of the most satisfying worlds to ever visit. We are also, extremely fortunate that JRR DID have a successor, as Christopher delivered a published version of The Silmarillion and other Works, plus one of the greatest 'Studies' to his Father's World as any author could have hoped for; with HoME. 🥰
For an immortal, everlasting (at least since he was created) being there is clearly not important to choose a successor. The only way you will loose power is, your kingdom looses ... What is there to rule? He knew he was immortal, and maybe he did not think he would loose in the way he did when the ring was destroyed.
Interesting question, but obviously hierarchies would need to form on their own for people to keep eating and not being enslaved by eachother. Sauron was an absentee overlord for a whole lot of time and his followers were able to get by, they would easily revert to the status quo of trying to bring him back.
There is also no need for the successor to still remain in northern Mordor. Only Sauron had benefits of being there because he could use the dark powers of Mount Doom. That mountain was a remnant of Melkor's power in the world.
Yeah, at this point any Mordor-based kingdom, good or evil, would want to base itself in Núrn, not the old site of Barad-Dûr. If a new Barad-Dûr were erected, it would essentially be a religious building as opposed to a functional base of operations. And even then, it seems like a poor idea since the land there is likely still very unstable (being originally held in its shape by the power of Sauron as opposed to any normal geological dynamics)
In the 80's and 90's I played a fair amount of MERP. I focused on the 2nd age because I was deep into the Silmarilion. Of course the players grumbling became near mutiny and I had to run 3rd age. I moved the clock faster and faster until the One Ring was destroyed (take THAT players!) I used a secretive and distributed clutch of Black Numenorians which fled into the east and contrived a rod which allowed time to pass slowly for its master. I also leaned into the gradual dissipation of magic which affected everyone universally. As the players engaged in tasks of reconstruction and hunting down orcs, Trolls and minor dragons in the "clean up", they began to uncover covens, canals and evidence of a successor power. Slowly and methodically I won the players over and drew them in deeper and deeper. Fun video, thanks broham!
Hi, i have a kind of related question. What happend to dead Balrogs? We dont see them returing to Middle-Earth as Sauron, nor there is any mention of them in Valinor. Are they in the Void with Morgoth?
@@Nosiite Morgoth ended up in the Void because the Valar put him there. Tolkien never said what happened to the balrogs when they died; my personal belief is they became forever impotent spirits, like what happened to Saruman and Sauron during the War of the Ring.
Balrogs were also created before time and place, during the discord sown in the first music. I don't think they technically served Morgoth, but were made in part due to his interference, same as Ungoliant the mother of giant spiders like Shelob. This said, I don't think there is an after life for them, I agree that they are probably host-less spirits.
@@sarah69420 Balrogs are Maiar, the same order of being as Sauron and the Istari. They were created by Eru Ilúvatar with the rest of the Ainur and then corrupted by Melkor.
Firstly, Sauron would not have had an appointed successor, for the reasons stated in the video, plus I doubt that Sauron would have trusted anyone that he did not directly control (i.e. the Ring Wraiths) to have such power. This potentially leaves a number of lieutenants who may have survived the destruction of Sauron, though it is doubtful that they would have a clear leader, therefore there would probably be a period of civil war, complicated by the Free Peoples hunt for any such people. It is noted at the end of Lord of the Rings that the forces of Gondor and Rohan campaigned for years in the early Forth Age to root out those still loyal to Sauron. Mordor it's self would not be an option for any would be successor, being too close to Gondor and therefore closely watched, plus the slaves who had worked the fields of Nurn had been freed by Aragorn and given that land for their own. Therefore I think that any potential successor would not rise out of the ruins of Mordor, but rather from either: 1) an orc chieftain from Moria, Gundabad or the likes, though it will take them time to re-build their strength after the battles that ended the Third Age, plus time to subjugate other orc tribes to follow them. 2) a human leader from either the far east, beyond the Sea of Rhun, or the far South. Looking at a Genghis Khan type leader who can unite various tribes and peoples. Again it will take time to replace the losses from the battles that ended the Third Age, plus time to either form alliances or take surrounding lands, before they could rival the Gondor/Rohan alliance. I doubt that any such successor would have the command of all that Sauron commanded, most likely either an orc commanding orcs and maybe trolls, or a human commanding human troops. Where it is inferred that some dwarfs fought for Sauron, I doubt that they would have command of an non-dwarfs, and therefore they probably would not have the numbers to be a threat to the Gondor/Rohan alliance. The exception might be a half-orc, who could command the loyalty of both orcs and men. Though it would take some doing to get to a position of authority in both cultures. Overall, I would not see such a successor arising during the reign of Aragorn, rather being a problem for Aragorn's own successors.
Sauron was only one of many evil spirits who worshipped Morgoth, and they all serve him in the end and that would not change with his death. Sauron's herald was Thuringwethil the vampire, and she was probably the most powerful one left and would have been supported by the balrogs left if she could find any. And the implication is there are many others like her which we don't see much of. Sauron is just the chief and the nazghul the most visible not most powerful. He also has werewolves, vampires, dragons and who knows what. All of which are evil spirits like him from the old time who worshipped Morgoth.
Sauron wasn't actually "destroyed." The One Ring was destroyed, and so Sauron lost the greatest part of his power. But he continued to exist, and may possibly have retained enough power to influence weaker minds and weaker beings/spirits to do his bidding. He wouldn't have been able to become a mighty "dark lord" again, but might still have been a significant force for evil and malice in the world. And there were other evil beings around (possibly balrogs/maiar). And what about the Mouth of Sauron? In the film Aragorn decapitates him but in Tolkien's writings his fate is not specified.
I've seen someone describe Sauron after the ring is destroyed as, that feeling you have that someone is watching you but you look and no one is there, just a quiet malicious presence that can't do much.
I agree. His Boss,Melkore?, he was never truly destroyed… was he? Was not Melkore cast out into the void (some other dimension?) and not allowed to ever return?
@@gowimusic he was imprisoned/banished to the void, at one point tolkien had even planned for a sequel to lord of the rings that woulda taken place in more modern times where man was at war with man since all the other races would have either disappeared/died out or left middle earth and this would have eventually lead to melkores return as per a prophecy that was in the books that he would return one day but tolkien ended up deciding to scrap it and let his story end.
What I’ve noticed was majority of Men of the West greatest foes were not elves, dwarves, or even orcs. They were other Men. While Men have been shown to be easily corrupted/swayed, Men had also been able of doing extreme feats of change even without the traits of immortality and magic. Look at Isildur. He defeated Sauron with a broken sword. He also cursed an entire realm of men for breaking their oaths. And by actions of his own death, started the domino effect of events which saw Sauron’s ultimate defeat. The Will of Men was Sauron’s successor - a embodiment of order by conquest, either by sword or peace. It only required his death
I think a videogame should be designed around this premises; trying to become a new dark lord in some way, one or another, through a mixture of RPG and RTS elements would be pretty cool.
Ever heard of Overlord? You basically play as an evil dark "Overlord" that has returned, All other civilizations have stagnated and the forces of good retired and became lesser evils. Goal of the game is to rebuild your mighty fortress, Lead your armies of goblins out of hiding, And take the fight to the "heroes" that once defeated you. It's both an RPG and RTS, RPG elements include making the choice of being "Chaotic Evil" or "Lawful Evil". Oh and you can have 2 different wives. RTS parts include leading gangs (and potentially armies) of goblins to face down hobbits, elves, and other stuff. There's also a DLC and sequel.
To my knowledge Orc lives as long as elves unless killed. The goblin king recognised the swords immediately. He must have been at Gondolin when it fell, or in the battle percieving it when Gondolin first charged forth. With their violent nature it might still be unusual compared to elven societies but still, they would percieve themselves as eternal.
But there certainly were creatures left behind who could take over. There were other balrogs hidden deep within the Earth. Any one of them could have come out and taken over. And each were also angelic beings on part with the Istari and Sauron. And I cannot remember if Smaug was the last of all dragons, or if there could be others living in far away lands. The orcs and goblins all had their tribal leaders, and I would assume they would continue to do so after the fall of Sauron. Mirkwood still had a giant spider infestation and the elves were leaving. So the happy ever after ending we got was not shared by all.
But with the destruction of the one ring magic fades and therefore balrogs, dragons aso become less powerfull and even Mortal. You see the reason why sauron was morgoths successor was, is that He created the elven rings to prevail the magic in the earths realm. The music of iluvitar started to vade and only with the elven rings and the one ring alone IT was possible to hold on to it. Thats why the elves left middle earth and called it the age of men because No magic being would be capable of surving endless from now on and it also means even the balrogs sleeping down in the earth will perish now.
@@RikkiTikkiTavi290 And even the magic of the elves were not diminished by the fall of Sauron. Only the magic of the rings - which Sauron had a hand in making. This suggests that all the rings had a part of Saurons power. But I don't remember this being expressly stated in the books. When he was overthrown, so were the rings. But the magic of elves, and all other magical beings were not diminished by Saurons fall. In this you are 100% right.
@@nocomment6421 thats really why its so sad for middle earth, the end of the third age is really the end of fantastical elements within middle earth, with more mundane normal things being all that is left to thrive. LOTR lore really has parts of both grimdark and noblebright within it, and really isn't a huge happy ending even with sauron gone. this was of course somewhat an alegory by tolkien for the modern age, seeing old folk stories that were once taken with reverence slowly but surely be less appreciated by the new age as rationale and science slowly changed the culture.
@@sovietunion7643 tolkin wanted it that way to explain why we dont see magic today anymore. Lord of the rings was supposed to be a diffrent "came to be" story to rival christianits believes. Therefore since we dont have that magic anymore tolkin thought very wisely how to remove it. -For the rest here commenting on the subject without knowing the lore. YES every magic being on earth was affected by the rings destruction because it was the only way to maintain ilus music on middleearth - this music is the main reason why magic works and it startetd to vanish ages ago.
Didn't Sauron create a religious synagogue based around him as the central deity in the East and thus there would be secret councils and theological system of elite men who would continue on his doctrines?
@@yurikendal4868 Do you have proof of that? Because that doesn't seem like something the Blue Wizards would do. It doesn't fit them to do such a wicked thing.
I might even go Further and say you can't even use the examples from the Third age of the people attacking Gondor and allies because they where all likely pushed too attack, supported by Sauron as well. Without him in the background pulling the strings and plotting I dare at least half of groups were never have even bothered with Gondor. And any successor would not last long, King Elissar would soon see to their end. He did campaign against Rhun and Harad in his reign after, so who knows maybe he was knocking down some wannabe Saurons.
Time is not so much an issue if a successor can create a dynasty, a Black Numenorean could found a new line of kings each of which could easily rule for a century or more. Orcs may be immortal and simply die young to their violent nature. There are also 3 Balrogs unaccounted for and possibly some dragons left as well.
Black Numenorians likely do not live extraordinary lifespans. The dunedain in Gondor mostly lived normal lifespans by the Third Age, and the Black Numenorians would be even more diminished. Edit: also, technically up to four balrogs *could* be unaccounted for, but it's also possible that none are unaccounted for. Tolkien decided toward the end that there would be between 3 and 7 balrogs, and we know that 3 were killed.
3 balrogs were killed, Gothmog Durins bane Unnamed balrog I very much doubt there was only 3, as when melkor screamed for the balrogs ungoliant wouldnt of been scared of 3 of them, i feel theres either 5 of them, or 7. Both of which mean theres either 2 living or 4 living. Possibly a balrog could be sleeping under dol guldor’s hill, thus a reason why the fortress was always with the darkness and why sauron was there during the hobbit? (I know theres bigger reasons on why sauron used dol guldur but that couldve been a minor one))
Samug was the only dragon that is named and possibly interested in doing anythign in middle earth. Any remiaining balrogs would not be effective as leaders for the long term as they would not be interested in what Sauron was doing. They were morgoth's servants, not sauron's. if the balrotgs do come back it would be in association with Morgoth retuning but for that to happen the Balrogs would have to survive in a land that is hostile to them. @@SonofSethoitae
The balrogs would not care if Sauron rose or fell. They were not assoicated with Suaron. They would now be contending with a land that is hostile to them, so they would have to somehow survive the challenges with a land that is not conducive to them.@@convue4112
I always thought the most obvious "continuation" of the story would be the arising of a Balrog. I figured 500 to 1000 years after Aragorn took the throne when both he and his son had long since passed on, eventually Gondor & Arnor would once again slip away as is always the case with human nature and empires. No, there's no logical progression from Sauron to the Balrog as a successor, but more of just the arising of a new immortal dark lord. Peter Jackson's portrayal of Balrog's as basically dumb overpowered beasts is so far off the mark. They too are Maia just like Sauron. To me a story that would be great that differs from Tolkien's abandoned future tale he had started would be one simply titled "Shadow Rising in the East". A new dark lord rises, and eventually you learn it's a Balrog. You could then throw in (finally) Alatar and Pallando as main characters. We could at last explore the far east of MIddle-Earth, and the mountains with Mithril there too, so there at least is the foundation for a new tale.
Sauron is described as being a maiar almost as powerful as a weak valar. Most of his allies either resented him or had no free will of their own. I don't think that any being less powerful than him could keep his forces together after he was defeated. A Balrog could probably dominate nearby forces through fear but, I doubt that they dominate the dark forces of M.E. through sheer will power. If you need canon evidence of this, you can just look at Durin's Bane. It didn't even attempt to fill in for Sauron the first time he lost the ring. When it appeared in the first book, the orc's fled. If that had been Sauron or Melkor, the orcs would've submitted and obeyed orders.
The thing is it's hard for a Balrog to be considered that big of a threat since it took only gandalf the grey to kill one in single combat. While that same gandalf couldn't even face Sauron head-on at dol guldur. Sauron was so powerful that not a single of the istar could fight him head-on and hope to win and saruman the greatest of the wizards even joined him, because he saw no possibility to win against Sauron. Yes Sauron and the balrog are both maiar, both not all maiar are equal, sauron was above the rest when it comes to power.
@@similaritiesendhere the orcs in Moria worshipped the Balrog but were also scared to death of it just like they were of Sauron. The Balrog was hidding from the Valar and waiting for its master the real Dark Lord to return. It had no desire or reason to join/be like Sauorn or conquer Middle Earth for itself. Sauorn, his ring, and the Orcs meant nothing to it.
Leaving aside the LOTRO interpretation, which I've played many times and think very well wrotten I'd expect the most likely organised leadership would come from Umbar with its long historical opposition to Gondor, potential core of Men of Black Numenorean descent and while the Corsairs have been largely destroyed I have always seen them as the "useful fools" of the rulers of Umbar.
Like Morgoth before him, preparation for defeat was unthinkable and would have required "caring" about followers after his defeat. Neither Sauron nor Morgoth cared about their followers in any way to prepare for defeat. "If I'm gone, screw them" is the narcissist's way and those who want to control all of Creation, remake all Creation in their own image, and/or challenge the Creator are, by definition, narcissists.
I think Tom bombadil would be the next in line. That’s why he helped the hobbits because he foresaw the destruction of sauron and his own rise to power. Ladies and gentlemen I present you with the next dark lord Tom bombadil. Bright blue his jacket, his boots are yellow, but his heart is pitch black. Muahahahha
So then I wonder, if morgoth didn't name sauron as a successor, would that mean any other miar could have taken the title as dark lord? Assuming that sauron went with his master to face judgment before the valar too.
There's nothing to support the idea that Sauron faced such judgement. The destruction of the One Ring rendered him an impotent spirit while Morgoth was actually captured and brought before the Valar. To the best of my knowledge, the only Maiar left unaccounted for by the end of the LOTR are Radagast and the Blue Wizards, none of whom, based on Tolkien's later writings, are likely to have become a Dark Lord.
@@claudius_drusus_ Just 1? If we assume that Tolkien's margin note about no more than 7 Balrogs is true, then there would be a negative number of Balrogs by the time LotR happens, due to tens of them being killed during previous events... so ignoring that, there could be a fair number of them skulking around actually. Few compared to the days of Morgoth's might, but not merely a single one.
Theose balrogs left were under Morgoths control and were not interested or capable of taking Saurons's position. They were wanting to fight with Morgoth and had no interest in Middle earth beyond wrecking it for morgoth.@@Ithirahad
By very loose definitions, his successor was simply men. Tolkien hints that the world today is the distant and perhaps alternate future of his world, and since men have done their share of Sauron-like things in our time, I think they fit the bill.
The Witch King was supreme commander of his army, so that's probably the closest thing he had. Sauron was immortal and -- for all he knew -- invincible, so appointing someone to take his place after a death he would never experience would probably be pointless.
Harry Turtledove's Videssos Cycle began as Tolkien fanfic, based on the idea that the Witch King returned, in the Fourth Age. Which LOTR leaves as an open possibility: "Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world." When Turtledove returned to his unpublishable teen-aged effort, he broke from Middle Earth, placing his misplaced Roman Legion in a fantasy counterpart to the Byzantine Empire, and the Witch King became Rhavas.
Would not. They and rhadaghst would have left Middle earth by the 4th age. Saruman had the oppertunity to take up where Sauron left but he chose to waste his efforts on trashing the shire and getting himself killed in the process. @@krefcenz
The unfinished sequal to Lotr mentions an unknown dark lord that would appear a few decades after Sauron's demise, and will lead cults at a few kingdoms such as Gondor. Perhaps it is a human, perhaps it is an elf that turned out like Eol the Dark elf, Perhaps it is Saruman's spirit that came back to middle earth and has not return to Valinor
Who's left thats supernatural enough? Well, Shelob and the barrow wights, for sure. (But I doubt they could marshall the forces of Sauron) Other possibilities that could amass forces include: a young dragon somewhere, a first age vampire and possibly another (sleeping) Balrog.
NOne of those would care or even be able to. The world without Sauron and whatever influences the rings had over middle earth would be gone. Therre are no "Young dragons" in middle earth. They are mair made in that form, I think all of the vampires are destroyed by the 4th age and no balrog would bother. Balrogs worked for and with Morgoth. That is evidenced in their noticeable absence during the war of the ring.
people trying to fill the void left by Sauron and rally the orcs and his human servants again could have been a nice setup for the New Shadow I suppose
@@temmy9 well then if the mouth of sauron, the blue wizards, shelob, herumor, still could be somewhere 🤔 its not the epic scale dark leader but they could hold small groups together until a stronger master would come. Men would no doubt be warring with eachother regardless so its a great question. Now that i know the mouths still alive he is definitely up there
I stopped playing LotRO shortly after Riders of Rohan and never made it to West Rohan... I'm kinda curious about the storyline, but at the same time I dislike the changes made to the gameplay so much that I don't know if I can slog through it. (Main annoyance being the skill trees.) Anyway, after rereading Silmarillion and looking at others' depictions of Sauron before he became a dark lord, I've found myself fascinated with his character and wonder how someone as chaotic and unorderly as Melkor managed to corrupt Mairon.
I don't think Sauron would have ever considered the matter of succession as he didn't think he would ever need to and probably wouldn't have cared. I don't think there was anyone who could have established a realm inside Mordor without being destroyed by the Gondor and Rohan quickly. I also think there would have been a great deal of internecine warfare among the surviving groups that would have probably prevented anyone from Sauron's former vassals from becoming dominant. King Elessar's foreign policy would have also aided this as I think he would have established diplomatic ties with those who wanted to go a different way following Sauron's demise and used military force against those who did not. It probably would have taken at least a couple of centuries for a new threat to arise and that most likely would have been in the far east of the continent.
tolkien may have done a side story/sequel that took place in medieval times that featured a notably powerful lesser fire dragon as the man antagonist of the story and i believe it was implied this story was a medieval version of middle earth set thousands of years into the future after the events of LoTR had ended but it was never officially confirmed if the story was a side story/sequel
There was a successor. A group of dark magicians lead by a man named Huremor. This name was the same name of a powerful black Numenorean of the 2nd age.
She was probably killed by the Men of Gondor when she slinked too far out of her cave, with no Orcs to eat. Or maybe she did what Momma did and ate herself.
My issue there is similar to ungoliant and Tom bombadil, there was no desire for power or worship. She would just eat anything that came near whether in reverence or not. Tho there is an opening for such a thing since she negotiated with gollum to lure the Hobbits in. But my guess is she was planning on eating gollum as well after he brought her frodo n Sam. It's one of the few, minor wishes I had for the trilogy. I know just a simple giant spider was scarry enough for PJ and most viewers, but a giant, intelligent, speaking spider(as she was in the books) would be a scarier threat imo.
@@capthappy8884 i am a fan of the shadow of war version of shelob so maybe i should have kept it closer to tolkiens actual lore. Im just saying it has to be true ancient evil scary dark and some are scared of spiders lol perfect for setting the mood. Could she not produce offspring?
@@thepassionate3335 she did. It's said that the spiders in mirkwood were thought to be her offspring. But there were few or none near her as she ate anything she could, hence them being in mirkwood instead of around her. I haven't played the game, but I heard they majorly boosted her character. Unlike many, I'm quite ok with many creative departures from the lore(and Tolkien himself looked forward to other artists, writers, etc taking up his work). Probably bc I'm an illustrator who has hundreds of paintings/drawings inspired by his words and there's "lore breaking" elements in many. But that's how art works. No mistake, I like the idea she survived to become a menace again, it just wouldn't be comparable to sauron or morgoth imo.🙂
@@capthappy8884 @Capt Happy 888 You $ art? What do you think about shelob healing her wounds and shape-shifting into a lady but with a veil over her face to cover her eyes? They were injured so maybe she could represent a new version of the great eye symbolism. The harad would worship her and the thought of them having a blind secretive goddess hiding a black void inside her would be a great 4th age story. If she was fed you have an army that would be infinite and the harad already been thru it all and seen it all. So if she grew to ungoliant sized epicness she wouldnt be feared because they would have megafauna to feed her that being the mumakil and she would stay in her lady form wearing all black/harad red. I could see them rescuing her and worshipping her
There is scope for a sucessor in cannon, since its stated many spirits were drawn to Morgoth before the 1st age, not all wpuld have been balrogs and not all wpuld have been trapped in statues outside minas morgul or cirith ungol, i imagine many were senior leadership and functionaries in his aparstus, i imagine one or two shuch entites exisitong a viceroys in Rhun and Khand to ensure Saurons will was enflrced and long term goals achived in his absence, so technically one lf these cluld habe risen to power, or perhaps imstigated an internal power strugle ie the power in Rhun amd Khand fighting for dominion in the east before moving west in a fictional 4th or 5th age
Just a question about the Nazgul. Were they really bound to the one ring through their own rings? I thought that after the human rings had worked their magic and made the Nazgul into the wraiths we know them as, that the rings were then taken away by Sauron. I understood that although the Nazgul served Sauron, they did so willingly and with their own minds, without such control. Did they really die because the one ring was destroyed? Would love more details on this.
Good question. Sauron did take away their Rings of Power, but they were still bound to them. We see a similar thing with Gollum - although he no longer has possession of the One Ring, he continues to exist because he is effectively bound to it. When Frodo says that the One Ring must be destroyed, Gollum states that he will "turn into dust". Basically, he's lived far beyond his natural lifespan, and the destruction of the power binding him to the world will very quickly kill him. With the Nazgul, they have lived thousands of years beyond their natural lifespan. With the destruction of the One Ring, the Nine lose their power (along with the Seven and the Three), so the Nazgul are effectively no longer anchored to the world. Considering their physical bodies have faded, there is no way they could've continued existing.
@@DarthGandalfYT thanks so much for the answer! I wonder if Sauron could have used the rings again to corrupt more men. It's curious that he took them back. Perhaps it shows his nature, selfishness. No trinkets for anyone else other than to serve a purpose - to serve him. Perhaps some ego, some pride in part of his work that he would want to keep hold of them too. All very interesting
I guess the east and south after Sauron's downfall would have looked like the former soviet states in the 1990's or Latin America after the collaps of the Spanish empire or - maybe this is the best comparison - Western Europe after the fall of Rome. In fact it took 300 years after the fall of Rome before the Frankonian empire emerged as new power ordering Western Europe - for a brief period in time. Afterwards Carl the Great's death it took another 100 years before Germany, France and England stabelized as new Kingdoms. Therefore, I kinda imagine Rhun, Mordor and the South to look like that after Sauron's fall.
Will you do a video about the Fall of Numenor? I know the book doesn't add any new content, but I'm curious if it's akin to HoME, in the sense that it includes multiples drafts for the same stories, or is it more similar to consolidated books so to speak like The Children of Húrin.
If Sauron had, whether he personally appointed them or not, I think it would've either been a Black Numenorian (most likely the Mouth of Sauron) or an Easterling with enough power and influence in his own land.
would be a cool non canon game, where you try to restore the forces of mordor and invade middle earth now that Gandalf and most of the elves are gone to Valinor. You would also be opposed on both sides both by Rhun not wanting a new Tyrant and Gondor protecting the free ppl.
Sauron is immortal and inhumanely megalomaniacal. He didn't ever imagine he would need a successor and he wouldn't want one anyway. And there's your answer.
I have heard some say that the Witch-King already played the role of "Sauron's Successor" during the Angmar wars. While the Witch-King and the whole Angmar crisis was at the end of the day all Sauron's plan to destroy Arnor, I am certain that in-universe there were some who believed that the Witch-King was a Third Dark Lord, considering that Angmar over the course of 600 years was such a threat that it destroyed all the remanent kingdoms of Arnor and even threatened the Elven kingdoms such as Rivendell and Lindon, and even Glorfindel and Lorian had to get involved. It's arguable that the Witch-King did play a role of a pseudo-Dark Lord during the Angmar wars.
It's definitely possible. It wasn't quite understood who the Witch-king was initially, although it probably became obvious that he was one of the Nazgul when he lived far longer than a regular Man should've. It was also believed that the Necromancer was one of the Nazgul. Considering the Rings of Power weren't well-understood, people may have assumed that Sauron was gone, and that the Nazgul were having a crack at dark lordship themselves.
@@DarthGandalfYT That would make for an interesting (if entirely outlandish) "What if". If say for some reason the Nazgul survived the destruction of the One Ring and became independent entities. But as stated in your "What if Isengard won at Helm's Deep" video, the only being who had a crack at becoming a true Third Dark Lord was Saurman. But only under Extremely specific circumstances.
I don't think the Book said anything about Orodruin collapsing. I remember it saying, "And Orodruin reeled." Narchost and Carchost, as well as Cirith Ungol, were built by the Men of Gondor. Yes, one (a successor) could have risen, as Sauron rose to replace Morgoth.
Who would want to take Sauron's place much less COULD? A mere mortal could not and no Mair, balrogs and dragons included would be willing to put fourth the effort on Sauron's behalf.
The way you have to look at this, it would be those who would not be destroyed by the ring's destruction. Candidate number one, Saruman! Powerless except for his voice. But, Saruman still was capable of evil! Candidate number 2, the Mouth of Sauron. If he survived the downfall of Morder, he would be a likely choice.
Well, there's always Saruman. Not a successor as such, as he was always working towards his own aims, but if you needed someone to fill a power vacuum ......... Stripped of his power, he still managed to entice a band of ruffians to his banner, so he must have had some residual influence. So now we come to the thorny question of why he went west ? There was nothing there for him. He certainly would not have been allowed back into the Undying Lands, and he'd have had an extremely unpleasant reception in Lindon. So why West ? Centuries before, he had travelled extensively in Rhun, and possibly the other realms in the East. Men dwelt there, who were more subject to his persuasion than Elves or Dwarves. If he still had any vestige of his former power, this might have been his best bet. Even if he only managed to carve a small region for himself, this would surely have been preferable to having the other races as near neighbours. Just how powerful he might have become is conjecture, but he is probably one of the stronger candidates for amassing a fighting force. There was nothing wrong with his organisation and capabilities. After all, he'd already built one army pretty much from scratch. Why not another ? And does he still possess his extended lifespan ? The only difficulty he might face is if either of the two Blue Wizards were still alive.
I suppose, the real question is, if Sauron was Morgoth's lieutenant and best placed to carry on in his stead, why didn't Sauron have a lieutenant and what made him different to Morgoth in that respect?
Sauron was Morgoths prime lieutenant but never his successor. Because, Morgoth would never see any other being as worthy to rule in his stead, simply because he felt that he alone was worthy of ruling and that everything in creation rightly belonged to him, if he couldn’t rule over it all then no one could. Morgoth would rather destroy every atom of the universe than let someone else take control, including Sauron. The only situation where he would allow sauron to rule is only to keep his forces ready for him to return and assume command. Morgoth was the most prideful and entitled entity in existence, he even believed he was more entitled to ultimate power than eru himself. He wasn’t pushing for an ideal world like Sauron, who wanted to make the world better through order and perfection in his image. Morgoths only ever goal was to enslave everything and everyone for himself and only ever himself, Sauron and every other creature under him was only ever a tool to him, it would be like a builder naming his hammer as a successor. Sauron only climbed to power as the second dark lord simply because he was the most powerful of morgoths followers to survive, he filled the power vacuum of his own accord, not under the wishes of Morgoth. The difference between the two is that Sauron didn’t believe a successor would ever be necessary because he was overconfident of his success whilst Morgoth didn’t name a successor because he believed that he and only he was fit to rule over everything.
@@keelobrown4991, I agree with you. That doesn't really answer my question. I'll rephrase it. In your own words, why wasn't there a new dark lord to naturally follow in Sauron's footsteps, in much the same way that Sauron followed Morgoth's footsteps, not by design or appointment but by supremacy. Neither dark lord would have appointed a successor because their egos prevented them from believing that one was needed but Sauron stepped into Morgoth's shoes. My question is, who stepped into Sauron's shoes (or who would have done, had the novel continued)? It would have been the Witch King, were it not for the fact that he was defeated at Gondor but then, who was there to replace the Witch King in Mordor's hierarchy? Of course, the novel ends in a small way when the One Ring is destroyed but Saruman/Sharkey might have been the one to succeed him. But for that, he needed the Ring. I imagine that the orcs, goblins and trolls regrouped soon after they broke in their final battle at the Black Gate but at some point, there must have been someone, a Black Numenorean, an orc, a goblin, a troll etc.
Interesting video but Tolkien’s names typically had their emphasis on the the first syllable. MOR-an-non instead of Mor-AN-non and EL-es-sar instead of El-ES-sar.
What state could grow up in Mordor's stead without sauron there and wit hthe kingdoms of Gondor and Rohan essentially forcing a demiliterization? Could a successor state, say, in Nurn, beg for trade relations in exchange for help beating back the warlords hoping for the throne? After all with Nurn's breadbasket, bothof those kingdoms could afford to do.... More.
What is the successor manage to craft a ring a power similar to their master but I also managed to siphon off some of more Morgoth’s power from middle earth in order to become an even greater threat than the previous Dark lords and also been super charged by the ring of power.
Ok, hear me out: Consider that Middle Earth is our earth in our timeline as Tolkien wrote it. After the ring was destroyed, Sauron wasn't killed, but became a shadow over Mordor that was terrible and evil but couldn't interact with anything....WHAT IF a person in the future uncovers some secret knowledge from the past that teaches them how to make a new ring, or some advanced technology is developed, and they infuse their will into it with the intent of Sauron having the ability to share the ring as a host. Then that person allows Sauron to influence their mind and basically give themselves over to him and in essence let him exist again. Moreover, what if the events of Middle Earth are true and Tolkien was given inspiration from Sauron to write an epic fantasy novel that would one day lead to a person taking Sauron seriously and allowing his return?
he did it was one of the blue wizards but token never got to finish the tale he did not reveal himself until Saruman and Gandalf left Middle Earth he did not fear Radegast the brown
You know, Tolkien actually had plans for a sequel trilogy to LOTR, but he ultimately decided to leave the story as is. We don’t know much about this trilogy that never was, other than that the first book would have been called “The New Shadow”, that the story itself would be set over 1000 years after the end of LOTR, and that it would involve the Blue Wizards in some capacity. And there you have your successor, or should I say successors, to Sauron. The blue wizards were corrupted to his service in the 3rd age, are both immortal angels, and were off in the far east when Sauron fell.
Where did you hear that stuff? We actually have 13 pages from The New Shadow, and it's set 100-200 years after LOTR. There's no mention of the Blue Wizards, and Tolkien abandoned it because it was a mundane, depressing story that only dealt with the evil of Men.
Sauron wasn't exactly a named "successor" to Morgoth either. He's just one of the few lieutenants who survived the war of wrath and was able to get the orcs back in line again.
I do believe he was a little bit more than just one of the few lieutnants of Morgoth and Morgoth was very aware of this. Sauron was not a red dragon, but very cunning. Something that is needed to lead.
But a named successor of Morgoth is a bit unlikely, despite, Sauron having the most potential of all his lieutnants, he is perhaps the most powerful Maiar, like Morgoth was the most powerful Ainur. Don't think there is an equal at all to those 2 Dark Lords. Other then the origins, the characteristics are important too. Sauron was all about order and perfection, and there was no equal in this and the reason why he had all this urge and will to dominate, Arda.
Sauron is perfect threshold, a glitch of life. Made stronger then master yet loyal.
I believe if GothMog survived he would have challenged Sauron
Nah he woulda fell in line , he was Brutish
@@zeusapollo6504 i bet ancalagon the black would have been the strongest of them all if he survived, in a strict 1v1 sense. i doubt he could have gotten the orcs in line though
Can't help but imagine the post-Sauron turmoil that must have followed in Rhûn, Harad or Khand, where Sauron was possibly worshiped as a god for thousands of years. Whole societies crumbling, religious castes destroyed, rival warlords and politicians competing for power, and simple folk trying to get by and coming to terms with a completely new world...
Probably would be more interesting than whatever Amazon's making is all I'm saying.
I imagine many would have continued worshipping him long after his death. Religions are stubborn things. Especially major religious institutions that span millenia. Rarely are they ever truly dissuaded by minor hiccups like the death of their figurehead.
They’ll just insist that either it’s untrue. That the rumours of his death are highly exaggerated and the dark lord simply in hiding. Biding his time and waiting for the right moment to make his triumphant return. Or for the slightly less delusional. They will accept that he truly has cast off this worldly coil, but has transcended to some form of after life. (I was going to say heaven, but what kind of heaven could worshippers of Sauron possibly imagine?) From this afterlife he will be watching them, and judging their deeds, and waiting to meet them for better or worse when they too slough off this mortal coil.
No the only way to really kill such a religion is to conquer the civilization of its worshippers, destroy all artifacts and lore associated with it, dismantle its institutions, criminalize his worship and, most importantly, insert a new figurehead to become the new subject of their worship. It could be a god, a person, an ideology or political or economic system. Whatever it is it has to permeate every fascet of their civilization and command the adulation of the masses. But even then; even everything goes according to plan, there will likely still remain cults hiding in the shadows, lurking in the wilderness, or hiding behind closed doors, who are devoted to his worship centuries if not millenia after the ring was destroyed. Religions are, again, VERY stubborn things.
Whatever happened it didn't last long because Aragorn was pretty quick on bringing everyone besides I think Rohan and Dale under his rule.
Actually I think the book establishes that Aragorn takes back a lot of Gondor's old territory but doesn't invade Rhun or Harad or Khand because he makes peace with their leaders fairly quickly. The explanation is they were bullied bribed or lied to to fight for Sauron and those who were the most loyal were killed at the Black Gate. And by then they all feared an invasion from Gondor thanks to the Pellanor Fields and the fall of Sauron, but it never came. Aragorn desired to make peace in his time as King of Gondor and rebuild everything he could
Or Morgoth? Hed still be alive?
@@Blessed_V0id Yeah, but as he was sent outside of Arda until the end of times, he couldn't unite peoples to obey and worship him the way Sauron did.
Could be a fun setting for a shadow of war game. Fighting against other warlords to gain control of Mordor. You could customize your own warlord and build your own fortress. Obviously it’s against lore, but it would still be a fun setting.
About 2:25 in it says they did that on lotr online.
it isnt much against lore tbh
Yeah it's cool. Last I checked Aragon gave the Manish allies of Sauron Mordor after he defeated them in the 4th Age. So them battling for itw control actually makes sense
I thought there was a passage inserted by Tolkien (right around the fall of the tower of Barad-Dur) indicating that Sauron did indeed exert some unifying, possibly even telekinetic, and/or possessive power over his minions in addition to their general fear of him as shown by their immediate dispersal into chaos and confusion upon Sauron’s ultimate demise
You are correct. It’s expanded upon more in the silmarillon, in regards to morgoth, but Sauron has the same sway over orcs, trolls, etc.
I think a plausible possibility would be successor Kingdoms like after Alexander's death, with Sauron's former territories being divided up between his strongest Generals, each holding an uneasy truce with each other until they deemed the time was right to stab one of the others in the back. This would also suit Elessar because divided, none of them could hope to challenge the might of Gondor, leaving him with only occasional raids to deal with, as opposed to another war.
Something like this I'd imagine. Nurn might become the Egypt of this world, a fertile region vied for by future bordering empires.
Aragorn made peace with those areas and enforced it.
Sauron didn't "need" a successor.
Sauron's fight against Arda and even Eru Illuvatar himself was not on the premise of "good versus evil " -- Sauron, himself, saw himself not as a force of evil, but rather as a force of *order.* In Sauron's mind, his fight was always *to establish order* in Arda. When it came to the vast multitude of races that inhabited Arda, he had an incredibly strong disposition for 1 race in particular: Men. Orcs weren't "his" -- they were baggage from Morgoth's era that were left scattered across Middle Earth. But *Men* -- easy to persuade, eager to serve, and unendingly loyal after only a little effort -- were the ideal race to carry the banner of Sauron. Sauron's grand design was to eliminate the "free races" of Arda (or what little remained of them), and for Man to be the predominant intelligent species on Arda afterwards, with himself as their lord and god.
As the 3rd Age develops, Sauron's drive to actively destroy the other races diminishes, as he sees that they're *already* starting to die off (or, in the case of the Elves, "fade") on their own -- all he'd have to do is wait. So, his goals pivoted from genocide across Arda to merely conquering lands and kingdoms within it, as he knew that his plan of seeing the "lesser races" wiped out would come to pass regardless. The closest thing he would have to successor would have been Sarumon -- though "successor" here is less accurate than a "business partner." Sarumon would have likely, in time, grown to conspire against Sauron for the sake of his own desires; Where Sauron's primary drive was to impose order, Sauron's primary drive was "*self-enrichment*" -- he would serve Sauron only until there was no further benefit for him to do so, at which point he would have likely tried to usurp Sauron.
As the 3rd Age ends and the 4th Age -- the Age of Man -- begins, Sauron's work of establishing a regime of oppressive order across Arda would be self-fulfilling; In Tolkien's limited writings about the 4th Age, he even goes on to tell us as much -- the Light and Magic of the earlier ages has all but diminished and, with it, the wonder and freedom of those ages as well. In place of the light, The Age of Man has instead a shadow that looms over all of Arda -- but not the shadow of some great foe, but rather the shadow inherent in *all* Men -- the same all-consuming desire to establish violent, oppressive order. Even without his hand or influence, Sauron's wishes had come to pass.
Damn
@@elijahpassion8862 basically, humans suck and the world is devoid of magic. and the world is a bland hellhole because only greedy stupid humans are here
. . . .
I agree with you on all points. But that last bit about Men doing Sauron's will by our very nature... I'd never thought of that. And goddammit, you're right.
Sauron always came across as an avatar of humanities worst traits, so it makes sense.
Perfectly written. And this goes back to one of the most pivotal and mysterious questions in the Legendarium. How did Tolkiens Version of the Original Sin of Men come to pass?
Interesting vid my friend, thanks again.
This provides yet another highlight of just how complex, detailed and inter-related Tolkien's works are. Much like Sauron, JRR never tried to play 'beat the clock'. He took decades to write his legendarium and even then, continued to whittle at it after publication. We are of course the better off for it, as it still strikes me as one of the most satisfying worlds to ever visit.
We are also, extremely fortunate that JRR DID have a successor, as Christopher delivered a published version of The Silmarillion and other Works, plus one of the greatest 'Studies' to his Father's World as any author could have hoped for; with HoME. 🥰
For an immortal, everlasting (at least since he was created) being there is clearly not important to choose a successor. The only way you will loose power is, your kingdom looses ... What is there to rule? He knew he was immortal, and maybe he did not think he would loose in the way he did when the ring was destroyed.
It would be cool if he had a Son
I mean technically he’s not dead he just got yeeted to the void with his scallywag master.
@@alejandrosantana5693 I have a weird Ship Sauron x Coraline Jones
@Darien Schnücker of course, only logical to do so 💀
@@artaxerxeseh30 what do you mean?
Orks were more than fed up with the big bosses. They just wanted an honest life, plundering villages with a few good mates
Morgoth is still out there in the void, btw.
Interesting question, but obviously hierarchies would need to form on their own for people to keep eating and not being enslaved by eachother. Sauron was an absentee overlord for a whole lot of time and his followers were able to get by, they would easily revert to the status quo of trying to bring him back.
There is also no need for the successor to still remain in northern Mordor. Only Sauron had benefits of being there because he could use the dark powers of Mount Doom. That mountain was a remnant of Melkor's power in the world.
Yeah, at this point any Mordor-based kingdom, good or evil, would want to base itself in Núrn, not the old site of Barad-Dûr. If a new Barad-Dûr were erected, it would essentially be a religious building as opposed to a functional base of operations. And even then, it seems like a poor idea since the land there is likely still very unstable (being originally held in its shape by the power of Sauron as opposed to any normal geological dynamics)
In the 80's and 90's I played a fair amount of MERP. I focused on the 2nd age because I was deep into the Silmarilion. Of course the players grumbling became near mutiny and I had to run 3rd age. I moved the clock faster and faster until the One Ring was destroyed (take THAT players!)
I used a secretive and distributed clutch of Black Numenorians which fled into the east and contrived a rod which allowed time to pass slowly for its master. I also leaned into the gradual dissipation of magic which affected everyone universally. As the players engaged in tasks of reconstruction and hunting down orcs, Trolls and minor dragons in the "clean up", they began to uncover covens, canals and evidence of a successor power. Slowly and methodically I won the players over and drew them in deeper and deeper.
Fun video, thanks broham!
Hi, i have a kind of related question. What happend to dead Balrogs? We dont see them returing to Middle-Earth as Sauron, nor there is any mention of them in Valinor. Are they in the Void with Morgoth?
thats a good question, it's safe to assume though that they did go into the void with him since they served him
@@Nosiite Morgoth ended up in the Void because the Valar put him there. Tolkien never said what happened to the balrogs when they died; my personal belief is they became forever impotent spirits, like what happened to Saruman and Sauron during the War of the Ring.
They technically don't "die". They just lose their physical bodies and have no means of getting another. They become unhoused spirits.
Balrogs were also created before time and place, during the discord sown in the first music. I don't think they technically served Morgoth, but were made in part due to his interference, same as Ungoliant the mother of giant spiders like Shelob. This said, I don't think there is an after life for them, I agree that they are probably host-less spirits.
@@sarah69420 Balrogs are Maiar, the same order of being as Sauron and the Istari. They were created by Eru Ilúvatar with the rest of the Ainur and then corrupted by Melkor.
Firstly, Sauron would not have had an appointed successor, for the reasons stated in the video, plus I doubt that Sauron would have trusted anyone that he did not directly control (i.e. the Ring Wraiths) to have such power.
This potentially leaves a number of lieutenants who may have survived the destruction of Sauron, though it is doubtful that they would have a clear leader, therefore there would probably be a period of civil war, complicated by the Free Peoples hunt for any such people. It is noted at the end of Lord of the Rings that the forces of Gondor and Rohan campaigned for years in the early Forth Age to root out those still loyal to Sauron.
Mordor it's self would not be an option for any would be successor, being too close to Gondor and therefore closely watched, plus the slaves who had worked the fields of Nurn had been freed by Aragorn and given that land for their own.
Therefore I think that any potential successor would not rise out of the ruins of Mordor, but rather from either:
1) an orc chieftain from Moria, Gundabad or the likes, though it will take them time to re-build their strength after the battles that ended the Third Age, plus time to subjugate other orc tribes to follow them.
2) a human leader from either the far east, beyond the Sea of Rhun, or the far South. Looking at a Genghis Khan type leader who can unite various tribes and peoples. Again it will take time to replace the losses from the battles that ended the Third Age, plus time to either form alliances or take surrounding lands, before they could rival the Gondor/Rohan alliance.
I doubt that any such successor would have the command of all that Sauron commanded, most likely either an orc commanding orcs and maybe trolls, or a human commanding human troops. Where it is inferred that some dwarfs fought for Sauron, I doubt that they would have command of an non-dwarfs, and therefore they probably would not have the numbers to be a threat to the Gondor/Rohan alliance.
The exception might be a half-orc, who could command the loyalty of both orcs and men. Though it would take some doing to get to a position of authority in both cultures.
Overall, I would not see such a successor arising during the reign of Aragorn, rather being a problem for Aragorn's own successors.
Sauron was only one of many evil spirits who worshipped Morgoth, and they all serve him in the end and that would not change with his death. Sauron's herald was Thuringwethil the vampire, and she was probably the most powerful one left and would have been supported by the balrogs left if she could find any. And the implication is there are many others like her which we don't see much of. Sauron is just the chief and the nazghul the most visible not most powerful. He also has werewolves, vampires, dragons and who knows what. All of which are evil spirits like him from the old time who worshipped Morgoth.
@@LTPottenger the dragons only ever listened to morgoth, after he was banished not even sauron could control them.
Sauron wasn't actually "destroyed." The One Ring was destroyed, and so Sauron lost the greatest part of his power. But he continued to exist, and may possibly have retained enough power to influence weaker minds and weaker beings/spirits to do his bidding. He wouldn't have been able to become a mighty "dark lord" again, but might still have been a significant force for evil and malice in the world. And there were other evil beings around (possibly balrogs/maiar). And what about the Mouth of Sauron? In the film Aragorn decapitates him but in Tolkien's writings his fate is not specified.
I've seen someone describe Sauron after the ring is destroyed as, that feeling you have that someone is watching you but you look and no one is there, just a quiet malicious presence that can't do much.
He could definitely still influence some of his former followers as a spirit, but I doubt even then he could do much
I agree. His Boss,Melkore?, he was never truly destroyed… was he? Was not Melkore cast out into the void (some other dimension?) and not allowed to ever return?
@@gowimusic he was imprisoned/banished to the void, at one point tolkien had even planned for a sequel to lord of the rings that woulda taken place in more modern times where man was at war with man since all the other races would have either disappeared/died out or left middle earth and this would have eventually lead to melkores return as per a prophecy that was in the books that he would return one day but tolkien ended up deciding to scrap it and let his story end.
@@CrimsonReapa Dar Dagorath
I almost clicked away when you mentioned the LotR videogame. It's like mentioning a Mel Gibson movie in a scholarly biblical video.
What I’ve noticed was majority of Men of the West greatest foes were not elves, dwarves, or even orcs.
They were other Men.
While Men have been shown to be easily corrupted/swayed, Men had also been able of doing extreme feats of change even without the traits of immortality and magic.
Look at Isildur. He defeated Sauron with a broken sword. He also cursed an entire realm of men for breaking their oaths. And by actions of his own death, started the domino effect of events which saw Sauron’s ultimate defeat.
The Will of Men was Sauron’s successor - a embodiment of order by conquest, either by sword or peace.
It only required his death
I think that was by intent.
thanks for naming the artists.
I think a videogame should be designed around this premises; trying to become a new dark lord in some way, one or another, through a mixture of RPG and RTS elements would be pretty cool.
Just play as sith in SWTOR
@@Zenocius Lmao if I wanted to do that and only that, why would I even bother to post a comment here, then? Think harder.
Ever heard of Overlord? You basically play as an evil dark "Overlord" that has returned, All other civilizations have stagnated and the forces of good retired and became lesser evils.
Goal of the game is to rebuild your mighty fortress, Lead your armies of goblins out of hiding, And take the fight to the "heroes" that once defeated you. It's both an RPG and RTS, RPG elements include making the choice of being "Chaotic Evil" or "Lawful Evil". Oh and you can have 2 different wives.
RTS parts include leading gangs (and potentially armies) of goblins to face down hobbits, elves, and other stuff.
There's also a DLC and sequel.
Dominions 5 let's you play as a variety of pretender gods.
To my knowledge Orc lives as long as elves unless killed. The goblin king recognised the swords immediately. He must have been at Gondolin when it fell, or in the battle percieving it when Gondolin first charged forth. With their violent nature it might still be unusual compared to elven societies but still, they would percieve themselves as eternal.
But there certainly were creatures left behind who could take over. There were other balrogs hidden deep within the Earth. Any one of them could have come out and taken over. And each were also angelic beings on part with the Istari and Sauron. And I cannot remember if Smaug was the last of all dragons, or if there could be others living in far away lands. The orcs and goblins all had their tribal leaders, and I would assume they would continue to do so after the fall of Sauron. Mirkwood still had a giant spider infestation and the elves were leaving. So the happy ever after ending we got was not shared by all.
But with the destruction of the one ring magic fades and therefore balrogs, dragons aso become less powerfull and even Mortal. You see the reason why sauron was morgoths successor was, is that He created the elven rings to prevail the magic in the earths realm. The music of iluvitar started to vade and only with the elven rings and the one ring alone IT was possible to hold on to it. Thats why the elves left middle earth and called it the age of men because No magic being would be capable of surving endless from now on and it also means even the balrogs sleeping down in the earth will perish now.
@@nocomment6421The Balrogs are not affected by the Ring, nor would their power wane like with the Elves since they are Maiar.
@@RikkiTikkiTavi290 And even the magic of the elves were not diminished by the fall of Sauron. Only the magic of the rings - which Sauron had a hand in making. This suggests that all the rings had a part of Saurons power. But I don't remember this being expressly stated in the books. When he was overthrown, so were the rings. But the magic of elves, and all other magical beings were not diminished by Saurons fall. In this you are 100% right.
@@nocomment6421 thats really why its so sad for middle earth, the end of the third age is really the end of fantastical elements within middle earth, with more mundane normal things being all that is left to thrive. LOTR lore really has parts of both grimdark and noblebright within it, and really isn't a huge happy ending even with sauron gone. this was of course somewhat an alegory by tolkien for the modern age, seeing old folk stories that were once taken with reverence slowly but surely be less appreciated by the new age as rationale and science slowly changed the culture.
@@sovietunion7643 tolkin wanted it that way to explain why we dont see magic today anymore. Lord of the rings was supposed to be a diffrent "came to be" story to rival christianits believes. Therefore since we dont have that magic anymore tolkin thought very wisely how to remove it. -For the rest here commenting on the subject without knowing the lore. YES every magic being on earth was affected by the rings destruction because it was the only way to maintain ilus music on middleearth - this music is the main reason why magic works and it startetd to vanish ages ago.
Why would immortal beings even think to name a successor?
Didn't Sauron create a religious synagogue based around him as the central deity in the East and thus there would be secret councils and theological system of elite men who would continue on his doctrines?
Those were the blue wizards doing that and Sauron created a pro morgoth relegion on Numenor and it was destroyed when Numenor was.
@@yurikendal4868
Do you have proof of that? Because that doesn't seem like something the Blue Wizards would do. It doesn't fit them to do such a wicked thing.
I can feel a potential Sequel that I would very much like to see.
I might even go Further and say you can't even use the examples from the Third age of the people attacking Gondor and allies because they where all likely pushed too attack, supported by Sauron as well. Without him in the background pulling the strings and plotting I dare at least half of groups were never have even bothered with Gondor. And any successor would not last long, King Elissar would soon see to their end. He did campaign against Rhun and Harad in his reign after, so who knows maybe he was knocking down some wannabe Saurons.
Time is not so much an issue if a successor can create a dynasty, a Black Numenorean could found a new line of kings each of which could easily rule for a century or more. Orcs may be immortal and simply die young to their violent nature. There are also 3 Balrogs unaccounted for and possibly some dragons left as well.
Black Numenorians likely do not live extraordinary lifespans. The dunedain in Gondor mostly lived normal lifespans by the Third Age, and the Black Numenorians would be even more diminished.
Edit: also, technically up to four balrogs *could* be unaccounted for, but it's also possible that none are unaccounted for. Tolkien decided toward the end that there would be between 3 and 7 balrogs, and we know that 3 were killed.
3 balrogs were killed,
Gothmog
Durins bane
Unnamed balrog
I very much doubt there was only 3, as when melkor screamed for the balrogs ungoliant wouldnt of been scared of 3 of them, i feel theres either 5 of them, or 7. Both of which mean theres either 2 living or 4 living.
Possibly a balrog could be sleeping under dol guldor’s hill, thus a reason why the fortress was always with the darkness and why sauron was there during the hobbit?
(I know theres bigger reasons on why sauron used dol guldur but that couldve been a minor one))
Samug was the only dragon that is named and possibly interested in doing anythign in middle earth. Any remiaining balrogs would not be effective as leaders for the long term as they would not be interested in what Sauron was doing. They were morgoth's servants, not sauron's. if the balrotgs do come back it would be in association with Morgoth retuning but for that to happen the Balrogs would have to survive in a land that is hostile to them. @@SonofSethoitae
The balrogs would not care if Sauron rose or fell. They were not assoicated with Suaron. They would now be contending with a land that is hostile to them, so they would have to somehow survive the challenges with a land that is not conducive to them.@@convue4112
I always thought the most obvious "continuation" of the story would be the arising of a Balrog. I figured 500 to 1000 years after Aragorn took the throne when both he and his son had long since passed on, eventually Gondor & Arnor would once again slip away as is always the case with human nature and empires. No, there's no logical progression from Sauron to the Balrog as a successor, but more of just the arising of a new immortal dark lord. Peter Jackson's portrayal of Balrog's as basically dumb overpowered beasts is so far off the mark. They too are Maia just like Sauron. To me a story that would be great that differs from Tolkien's abandoned future tale he had started would be one simply titled "Shadow Rising in the East". A new dark lord rises, and eventually you learn it's a Balrog. You could then throw in (finally) Alatar and Pallando as main characters. We could at last explore the far east of MIddle-Earth, and the mountains with Mithril there too, so there at least is the foundation for a new tale.
It seems the only answer another Maiar and yes they were never just stupid enraged monsters but intelligent powerful beings of evil.
Sauron is described as being a maiar almost as powerful as a weak valar. Most of his allies either resented him or had no free will of their own.
I don't think that any being less powerful than him could keep his forces together after he was defeated. A Balrog could probably dominate nearby forces through fear but, I doubt that they dominate the dark forces of M.E. through sheer will power.
If you need canon evidence of this, you can just look at Durin's Bane. It didn't even attempt to fill in for Sauron the first time he lost the ring. When it appeared in the first book, the orc's fled. If that had been Sauron or Melkor, the orcs would've submitted and obeyed orders.
The thing is it's hard for a Balrog to be considered that big of a threat since it took only gandalf the grey to kill one in single combat. While that same gandalf couldn't even face Sauron head-on at dol guldur. Sauron was so powerful that not a single of the istar could fight him head-on and hope to win and saruman the greatest of the wizards even joined him, because he saw no possibility to win against Sauron.
Yes Sauron and the balrog are both maiar, both not all maiar are equal, sauron was above the rest when it comes to power.
I honestly think THIS would be an excellent concept for an Amazon prime series - a LOTR sequel. THEN they can have the kind of freedom they want.
@@similaritiesendhere the orcs in Moria worshipped the Balrog but were also scared to death of it just like they were of Sauron. The Balrog was hidding from the Valar and waiting for its master the real Dark Lord to return. It had no desire or reason to join/be like Sauorn or conquer Middle Earth for itself. Sauorn, his ring, and the Orcs meant nothing to it.
Leaving aside the LOTRO interpretation, which I've played many times and think very well wrotten I'd expect the most likely organised leadership would come from Umbar with its long historical opposition to Gondor, potential core of Men of Black Numenorean descent and while the Corsairs have been largely destroyed I have always seen them as the "useful fools" of the rulers of Umbar.
Excellent video!
Like Morgoth before him, preparation for defeat was unthinkable and would have required "caring" about followers after his defeat. Neither Sauron nor Morgoth cared about their followers in any way to prepare for defeat. "If I'm gone, screw them" is the narcissist's way and those who want to control all of Creation, remake all Creation in their own image, and/or challenge the Creator are, by definition, narcissists.
I think Tom bombadil would be the next in line. That’s why he helped the hobbits because he foresaw the destruction of sauron and his own rise to power. Ladies and gentlemen I present you with the next dark lord Tom bombadil. Bright blue his jacket, his boots are yellow, but his heart is pitch black. Muahahahha
So then I wonder, if morgoth didn't name sauron as a successor, would that mean any other miar could have taken the title as dark lord? Assuming that sauron went with his master to face judgment before the valar too.
There's nothing to support the idea that Sauron faced such judgement. The destruction of the One Ring rendered him an impotent spirit while Morgoth was actually captured and brought before the Valar. To the best of my knowledge, the only Maiar left unaccounted for by the end of the LOTR are Radagast and the Blue Wizards, none of whom, based on Tolkien's later writings, are likely to have become a Dark Lord.
@@istari0 there is still 1 balrog left unaccounted for. Plus, Sauron was cast into the void.
@@claudius_drusus_ Just 1? If we assume that Tolkien's margin note about no more than 7 Balrogs is true, then there would be a negative number of Balrogs by the time LotR happens, due to tens of them being killed during previous events... so ignoring that, there could be a fair number of them skulking around actually. Few compared to the days of Morgoth's might, but not merely a single one.
Morgoth was imprisoned so would not face judgemenat. Sauron was a broken shadow and had received judgment in his life essentially being destroyed.
Theose balrogs left were under Morgoths control and were not interested or capable of taking Saurons's position. They were wanting to fight with Morgoth and had no interest in Middle earth beyond wrecking it for morgoth.@@Ithirahad
As Gandalf said in the movie "There's only one Lord of the Rings, and he does not share."
What if, just if.....Maleficent is actually Saurons long lost child from his scandalous affair with Thuringwethel?!?!? 😱😱😱 GAAAAASP!!!
By very loose definitions, his successor was simply men. Tolkien hints that the world today is the distant and perhaps alternate future of his world, and since men have done their share of Sauron-like things in our time, I think they fit the bill.
lord of the rings online is amazing i cant wait for before the shadow :)
Great information thank you for inlightingThings I never thought of however somewhat complicated
The Witch King was supreme commander of his army, so that's probably the closest thing he had.
Sauron was immortal and -- for all he knew -- invincible, so appointing someone to take his place after a death he would never experience would probably be pointless.
Harry Turtledove's Videssos Cycle began as Tolkien fanfic, based on the idea that the Witch King returned, in the Fourth Age. Which LOTR leaves as an open possibility:
"Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world."
When Turtledove returned to his unpublishable teen-aged effort, he broke from Middle Earth, placing his misplaced Roman Legion in a fantasy counterpart to the Byzantine Empire, and the Witch King became Rhavas.
I've always thought that Saruman could have been his oportunistic successor, obviously if given the chance.
I agree, but he was killed by Wormtongue . The Blue wizards on the other hand.....
Would not. They and rhadaghst would have left Middle earth by the 4th age. Saruman had the oppertunity to take up where Sauron left but he chose to waste his efforts on trashing the shire and getting himself killed in the process. @@krefcenz
In Harad, it was probably the Heir to the Chieftan that Theoden Killed at the Pelennor Fields
I like to improve that in Harad, a kid get Crowned, whale everywhere else there’s a massive Civil War
Naming a successor would imply possible defeat, which Sauron didn’t think was possible 💍🌋🤷🏾♂️
The unfinished sequal to Lotr mentions an unknown dark lord that would appear a few decades after Sauron's demise, and will lead cults at a few kingdoms such as Gondor. Perhaps it is a human, perhaps it is an elf that turned out like Eol the Dark elf, Perhaps it is Saruman's spirit that came back to middle earth and has not return to Valinor
And with that we will never know
Darth Gandalf! I subscribed for the name alone!
Sauron's successor was Mankind.
Who's left thats supernatural enough? Well, Shelob and the barrow wights, for sure. (But I doubt they could marshall the forces of Sauron) Other possibilities that could amass forces include: a young dragon somewhere, a first age vampire and possibly another (sleeping) Balrog.
NOne of those would care or even be able to. The world without Sauron and whatever influences the rings had over middle earth would be gone. Therre are no "Young dragons" in middle earth. They are mair made in that form, I think all of the vampires are destroyed by the 4th age and no balrog would bother. Balrogs worked for and with Morgoth. That is evidenced in their noticeable absence during the war of the ring.
people trying to fill the void left by Sauron and rally the orcs and his human servants again could have been a nice setup for the New Shadow I suppose
i have always liked the idea that the Mouth Of Sauron fled to some far place and built a new Empire
Thought aragorn cut his head off
@@thepassionate3335 not in the book
@@temmy9 dont know how that even got in my head lol.
@@thepassionate3335 it happened in the extended edition of the movie
@@temmy9 well then if the mouth of sauron, the blue wizards, shelob, herumor, still could be somewhere 🤔 its not the epic scale dark leader but they could hold small groups together until a stronger master would come. Men would no doubt be warring with eachother regardless so its a great question. Now that i know the mouths still alive he is definitely up there
I always thought that an Ungoliant return in the 4th age would have been quite something 😄.
Well that’s for sure. It would be like Spiderzilla
Yeah, it was… Sauron Jr.
Family business, y’see
I stopped playing LotRO shortly after Riders of Rohan and never made it to West Rohan... I'm kinda curious about the storyline, but at the same time I dislike the changes made to the gameplay so much that I don't know if I can slog through it. (Main annoyance being the skill trees.)
Anyway, after rereading Silmarillion and looking at others' depictions of Sauron before he became a dark lord, I've found myself fascinated with his character and wonder how someone as chaotic and unorderly as Melkor managed to corrupt Mairon.
Same boat as you, but I came back for Minas Morgul expansion two years ago. Its fantastic.
The new expansion released Tuesday is really REALLY good.
I don't think Sauron would have ever considered the matter of succession as he didn't think he would ever need to and probably wouldn't have cared. I don't think there was anyone who could have established a realm inside Mordor without being destroyed by the Gondor and Rohan quickly. I also think there would have been a great deal of internecine warfare among the surviving groups that would have probably prevented anyone from Sauron's former vassals from becoming dominant. King Elessar's foreign policy would have also aided this as I think he would have established diplomatic ties with those who wanted to go a different way following Sauron's demise and used military force against those who did not.
It probably would have taken at least a couple of centuries for a new threat to arise and that most likely would have been in the far east of the continent.
tolkien may have done a side story/sequel that took place in medieval times that featured a notably powerful lesser fire dragon as the man antagonist of the story and i believe it was implied this story was a medieval version of middle earth set thousands of years into the future after the events of LoTR had ended but it was never officially confirmed if the story was a side story/sequel
There was a successor. A group of dark magicians lead by a man named Huremor. This name was the same name of a powerful black Numenorean of the 2nd age.
Didnt think Shelob died and she was so powerful. What if she moved further south and could have been worshipped
She was probably killed by the Men of Gondor when she slinked too far out of her cave, with no Orcs to eat. Or maybe she did what Momma did and ate herself.
My issue there is similar to ungoliant and Tom bombadil, there was no desire for power or worship. She would just eat anything that came near whether in reverence or not.
Tho there is an opening for such a thing since she negotiated with gollum to lure the Hobbits in. But my guess is she was planning on eating gollum as well after he brought her frodo n Sam.
It's one of the few, minor wishes I had for the trilogy. I know just a simple giant spider was scarry enough for PJ and most viewers, but a giant, intelligent, speaking spider(as she was in the books) would be a scarier threat imo.
@@capthappy8884 i am a fan of the shadow of war version of shelob so maybe i should have kept it closer to tolkiens actual lore. Im just saying it has to be true ancient evil scary dark and some are scared of spiders lol perfect for setting the mood. Could she not produce offspring?
@@thepassionate3335 she did. It's said that the spiders in mirkwood were thought to be her offspring. But there were few or none near her as she ate anything she could, hence them being in mirkwood instead of around her.
I haven't played the game, but I heard they majorly boosted her character. Unlike many, I'm quite ok with many creative departures from the lore(and Tolkien himself looked forward to other artists, writers, etc taking up his work). Probably bc I'm an illustrator who has hundreds of paintings/drawings inspired by his words and there's "lore breaking" elements in many. But that's how art works.
No mistake, I like the idea she survived to become a menace again, it just wouldn't be comparable to sauron or morgoth imo.🙂
@@capthappy8884 @Capt Happy 888 You $ art? What do you think about shelob healing her wounds and shape-shifting into a lady but with a veil over her face to cover her eyes? They were injured so maybe she could represent a new version of the great eye symbolism. The harad would worship her and the thought of them having a blind secretive goddess hiding a black void inside her would be a great 4th age story. If she was fed you have an army that would be infinite and the harad already been thru it all and seen it all. So if she grew to ungoliant sized epicness she wouldnt be feared because they would have megafauna to feed her that being the mumakil and she would stay in her lady form wearing all black/harad red. I could see them rescuing her and worshipping her
The Balrogs would be a good candidate for Sauron/Morgoth’s succession but I doubt they would have any drive to take command. They only serve Morgoth.
They wouldn't nor could they by the 4th age. They would have been sussed out and beaten if they tried.
I wonder if Saruman could have eventually become a new Dark Lord if he hadn't been murdered by Wormtongue.
One of the Blue Wizards could have taken a walk on the dark side, or both working together.
There is scope for a sucessor in cannon, since its stated many spirits were drawn to Morgoth before the 1st age, not all wpuld have been balrogs and not all wpuld have been trapped in statues outside minas morgul or cirith ungol, i imagine many were senior leadership and functionaries in his aparstus, i imagine one or two shuch entites exisitong a viceroys in Rhun and Khand to ensure Saurons will was enflrced and long term goals achived in his absence, so technically one lf these cluld habe risen to power, or perhaps imstigated an internal power strugle ie the power in Rhun amd Khand fighting for dominion in the east before moving west in a fictional 4th or 5th age
Just a question about the Nazgul. Were they really bound to the one ring through their own rings? I thought that after the human rings had worked their magic and made the Nazgul into the wraiths we know them as, that the rings were then taken away by Sauron. I understood that although the Nazgul served Sauron, they did so willingly and with their own minds, without such control. Did they really die because the one ring was destroyed? Would love more details on this.
Good question. Sauron did take away their Rings of Power, but they were still bound to them. We see a similar thing with Gollum - although he no longer has possession of the One Ring, he continues to exist because he is effectively bound to it. When Frodo says that the One Ring must be destroyed, Gollum states that he will "turn into dust". Basically, he's lived far beyond his natural lifespan, and the destruction of the power binding him to the world will very quickly kill him.
With the Nazgul, they have lived thousands of years beyond their natural lifespan. With the destruction of the One Ring, the Nine lose their power (along with the Seven and the Three), so the Nazgul are effectively no longer anchored to the world. Considering their physical bodies have faded, there is no way they could've continued existing.
@@DarthGandalfYT thanks so much for the answer! I wonder if Sauron could have used the rings again to corrupt more men. It's curious that he took them back. Perhaps it shows his nature, selfishness. No trinkets for anyone else other than to serve a purpose - to serve him. Perhaps some ego, some pride in part of his work that he would want to keep hold of them too. All very interesting
I guess the east and south after Sauron's downfall would have looked like the former soviet states in the 1990's or Latin America after the collaps of the Spanish empire or - maybe this is the best comparison - Western Europe after the fall of Rome.
In fact it took 300 years after the fall of Rome before the Frankonian empire emerged as new power ordering Western Europe - for a brief period in time. Afterwards Carl the Great's death it took another 100 years before Germany, France and England stabelized as new Kingdoms.
Therefore, I kinda imagine Rhun, Mordor and the South to look like that after Sauron's fall.
Will you do a video about the Fall of Numenor? I know the book doesn't add any new content, but I'm curious if it's akin to HoME, in the sense that it includes multiples drafts for the same stories, or is it more similar to consolidated books so to speak like The Children of Húrin.
If Sauron had, whether he personally appointed them or not, I think it would've either been a Black Numenorian (most likely the Mouth of Sauron) or an Easterling with enough power and influence in his own land.
But Sauron would have to take ample to Time to mentor said succesor. Would sauron do that? Could he?
Should have been titled: Did Sauron have middle management?
Wait! Orcs are mortals??
would be a cool non canon game, where you try to restore the forces of mordor and invade middle earth now that Gandalf and most of the elves are gone to Valinor. You would also be opposed on both sides both by Rhun not wanting a new Tyrant and Gondor protecting the free ppl.
Sauron is immortal and inhumanely megalomaniacal. He didn't ever imagine he would need a successor and he wouldn't want one anyway. And there's your answer.
Very interesting, thank you
Yes. The less impressive Skeletor, who never managed to conquer middle earth either.
The only possible way for a successor to emerge, would someone who would be an avatar/prophet/priest of Melkor/Morgoth
Three words “Dagor-Dagor-Lad”
I have heard some say that the Witch-King already played the role of "Sauron's Successor" during the Angmar wars. While the Witch-King and the whole Angmar crisis was at the end of the day all Sauron's plan to destroy Arnor, I am certain that in-universe there were some who believed that the Witch-King was a Third Dark Lord, considering that Angmar over the course of 600 years was such a threat that it destroyed all the remanent kingdoms of Arnor and even threatened the Elven kingdoms such as Rivendell and Lindon, and even Glorfindel and Lorian had to get involved. It's arguable that the Witch-King did play a role of a pseudo-Dark Lord during the Angmar wars.
It's definitely possible. It wasn't quite understood who the Witch-king was initially, although it probably became obvious that he was one of the Nazgul when he lived far longer than a regular Man should've. It was also believed that the Necromancer was one of the Nazgul. Considering the Rings of Power weren't well-understood, people may have assumed that Sauron was gone, and that the Nazgul were having a crack at dark lordship themselves.
@@DarthGandalfYT That would make for an interesting (if entirely outlandish) "What if". If say for some reason the Nazgul survived the destruction of the One Ring and became independent entities.
But as stated in your "What if Isengard won at Helm's Deep" video, the only being who had a crack at becoming a true Third Dark Lord was Saurman. But only under Extremely specific circumstances.
well yeah. Balbrand, his brother in law, took over.
Haradrim and easterlings continue to fight to the death......
Fun vid. Thanks
I don't think the Book said anything about Orodruin collapsing. I remember it saying, "And Orodruin reeled." Narchost and Carchost, as well as Cirith Ungol, were built by the Men of Gondor.
Yes, one (a successor) could have risen, as Sauron rose to replace Morgoth.
Who would want to take Sauron's place much less COULD? A mere mortal could not and no Mair, balrogs and dragons included would be willing to put fourth the effort on Sauron's behalf.
The way you have to look at this, it would be those who would not be destroyed by the ring's destruction. Candidate number one, Saruman! Powerless except for his voice. But, Saruman still was capable of evil! Candidate number 2, the Mouth of Sauron. If he survived the downfall of Morder, he would be a likely choice.
Sauroman could indeed have take on Sauron's role but he blew his chance.
Well, there's always Saruman.
Not a successor as such, as he was always working towards his own aims, but if you needed someone to fill a power vacuum .........
Stripped of his power, he still managed to entice a band of ruffians to his banner, so he must have had some residual influence.
So now we come to the thorny question of why he went west ?
There was nothing there for him. He certainly would not have been allowed back into the Undying Lands, and he'd have had an extremely unpleasant reception in Lindon.
So why West ?
Centuries before, he had travelled extensively in Rhun, and possibly the other realms in the East.
Men dwelt there, who were more subject to his persuasion than Elves or Dwarves.
If he still had any vestige of his former power, this might have been his best bet. Even if he only managed to carve a small region for himself, this would surely
have been preferable to having the other races as near neighbours.
Just how powerful he might have become is conjecture, but he is probably one of the stronger candidates for amassing a fighting force.
There was nothing wrong with his organisation and capabilities. After all, he'd already built one army pretty much from scratch. Why not another ?
And does he still possess his extended lifespan ?
The only difficulty he might face is if either of the two Blue Wizards were still alive.
Jerry from HR took over
The worst outcome.
I suppose, the real question is, if Sauron was Morgoth's lieutenant and best placed to carry on in his stead, why didn't Sauron have a lieutenant and what made him different to Morgoth in that respect?
Sauron was Morgoths prime lieutenant but never his successor. Because,
Morgoth would never see any other being as worthy to rule in his stead, simply because he felt that he alone was worthy of ruling and that everything in creation rightly belonged to him, if he couldn’t rule over it all then no one could. Morgoth would rather destroy every atom of the universe than let someone else take control, including Sauron. The only situation where he would allow sauron to rule is only to keep his forces ready for him to return and assume command. Morgoth was the most prideful and entitled entity in existence, he even believed he was more entitled to ultimate power than eru himself. He wasn’t pushing for an ideal world like Sauron, who wanted to make the world better through order and perfection in his image. Morgoths only ever goal was to enslave everything and everyone for himself and only ever himself, Sauron and every other creature under him was only ever a tool to him, it would be like a builder naming his hammer as a successor.
Sauron only climbed to power as the second dark lord simply because he was the most powerful of morgoths followers to survive, he filled the power vacuum of his own accord, not under the wishes of Morgoth. The difference between the two is that Sauron didn’t believe a successor would ever be necessary because he was overconfident of his success whilst Morgoth didn’t name a successor because he believed that he and only he was fit to rule over everything.
@@keelobrown4991, I agree with you. That doesn't really answer my question. I'll rephrase it. In your own words, why wasn't there a new dark lord to naturally follow in Sauron's footsteps, in much the same way that Sauron followed Morgoth's footsteps, not by design or appointment but by supremacy. Neither dark lord would have appointed a successor because their egos prevented them from believing that one was needed but Sauron stepped into Morgoth's shoes. My question is, who stepped into Sauron's shoes (or who would have done, had the novel continued)? It would have been the Witch King, were it not for the fact that he was defeated at Gondor but then, who was there to replace the Witch King in Mordor's hierarchy? Of course, the novel ends in a small way when the One Ring is destroyed but Saruman/Sharkey might have been the one to succeed him. But for that, he needed the Ring. I imagine that the orcs, goblins and trolls regrouped soon after they broke in their final battle at the Black Gate but at some point, there must have been someone, a Black Numenorean, an orc, a goblin, a troll etc.
No successor necessary... he's for all practical purposes immortal.
Did Sauron have a succesor? Yes. Little Sauron😆
"He does not share power"
Interesting video but Tolkien’s names typically had their emphasis on the the first syllable. MOR-an-non instead of Mor-AN-non and EL-es-sar instead of El-ES-sar.
what about the bright lord? In a rpg game i ran he took up Saruons mantle. Extended video game lore but yeah
Something tells me that Tolkien’s cancelled sequel The New Shadow might’ve touched up on this if he’d have continued with it
What state could grow up in Mordor's stead without sauron there and wit hthe kingdoms of Gondor and Rohan essentially forcing a demiliterization?
Could a successor state, say, in Nurn, beg for trade relations in exchange for help beating back the warlords hoping for the throne? After all with Nurn's breadbasket, bothof those kingdoms could afford to do.... More.
My Favorite Character The Witch King Of Angmar is most logical before his death!
what's the name of the background song?
Plot twist;
Elrond was Agent Smith all along, using the Fellowship to corrupt his biggest nemesis;
The Neo ring.
I wonder if someone not even evil would be corrupted somehow and take on his role
No. NOt at sauron's level.
Yeah Amazon is Sauron’s successor. 😊
I would say Saruman....nah kidding but the Witch King or Mouth of Sauron but I know nazgul isn't a viable ally to fill the void.
Sauron had no lieutenant, and none of his captains had any magical or political power to exert over Sauron's former empire.
What is the successor manage to craft a ring a power similar to their master but I also managed to siphon off some of more Morgoth’s power from middle earth in order to become an even greater threat than the previous Dark lords and also been super charged by the ring of power.
Ok, hear me out: Consider that Middle Earth is our earth in our timeline as Tolkien wrote it. After the ring was destroyed, Sauron wasn't killed, but became a shadow over Mordor that was terrible and evil but couldn't interact with anything....WHAT IF a person in the future uncovers some secret knowledge from the past that teaches them how to make a new ring, or some advanced technology is developed, and they infuse their will into it with the intent of Sauron having the ability to share the ring as a host. Then that person allows Sauron to influence their mind and basically give themselves over to him and in essence let him exist again. Moreover, what if the events of Middle Earth are true and Tolkien was given inspiration from Sauron to write an epic fantasy novel that would one day lead to a person taking Sauron seriously and allowing his return?
he did it was one of the blue wizards but token never got to finish the tale he did not reveal himself until Saruman and Gandalf left Middle Earth he did not fear Radegast the brown
Even mortal "dark lords" don't really have successors-let alone immortal ones.
You know, Tolkien actually had plans for a sequel trilogy to LOTR, but he ultimately decided to leave the story as is.
We don’t know much about this trilogy that never was, other than that the first book would have been called “The New Shadow”, that the story itself would be set over 1000 years after the end of LOTR, and that it would involve the Blue Wizards in some capacity.
And there you have your successor, or should I say successors, to Sauron. The blue wizards were corrupted to his service in the 3rd age, are both immortal angels, and were off in the far east when Sauron fell.
Where did you hear that stuff? We actually have 13 pages from The New Shadow, and it's set 100-200 years after LOTR. There's no mention of the Blue Wizards, and Tolkien abandoned it because it was a mundane, depressing story that only dealt with the evil of Men.
"Always two there are."
Bowie would've stepped up.