I always saw the 'reasonable' terms delivered by the Mouth of Sauron as being a case of judging the best way to sow division in Aragorns army . Offering nothing would have made them dig in with nothing to lose. Offering generous terms would be too incredible to be believed. Offering something a bit punitive but with a way out would be credible enough to weaken resolve of enough to reduce fighting strength a bit.
It is the political way of implementing the mongol envelopment strategy of leaving a small hole that actually wasnt a small hole but a trap to lure division and divide and conquer.
Personally I think Sauron would rule over all of Middle-earth as a god-king. The various kingdoms of Men who submit to his rule would probably be arranged as satrapies, ruling in Sauron's name over their peoples but also being given significant autonomy. As long as tributes are paid, worship of Sauron (and by extension Morgoth) is maintained, and people don't cause uprisings, I would think Sauron would leave a lot of realms to their own devices. Gondor would for sure bear the harshest brunt of Sauron's wrath, probably being destroyed rather than forced to submit. Gondor is a constant reminder of hated Numenor, and Elendil and his lines. He would not tolerate their existence, so he would probably bring the hammer down on them. Minas Tirith might be transformed into a twin of Minas Morgul, and Dol Amroth and other cities either being razed or taken over for Sauron's servants. The people of Gondor would probably be enslaved wholesale. Rohan would probably be forced to submit to him, with a portion being partitioned off for the Dunlendings. Rohan's ability to raise horses would be very important for Sauron, plus good agriculture. So I think the realm might survive, but the line of Eorl would probably be destroyed or exiled, being supplanted by some other ruler. Probably the Mouth and any descendants he might have... The Dwarves would probably either shut their doors for all time, or try to offer tribute or deals to Sauron. The Longbeards would cease to exist, but the other Dwarf houses would probably linger on. However, it is the Orcs I feel would have a shocking fate meted out to them. They were historically unreliable and Sauron treated them as tools rather than as a people. Orcs are also, by nature, chaotic beings, so they are an antithesis to a entity so strongly aligned to Order such as Sauron. So I personally think Sauron would either exile them to remote areas of Middle-earth, where they would not be of much trouble for him again, or just have them destroyed. The various human realms under his rule might be enlisted to help in the latter case, in return for benefits from Sauron. Hobbits kept the Ring from Sauron towards the end of the Third Age, and represent innocence and freedom. Sauron would either enslave them or worse. After all, Fell beasts and other monsters of Sauron need to eat too... Any Elves that escape Sauron's clutches would probably leave Middle-earth forever and never return. The Valar would probably not intervene, as they had laid down their guardianship of Arda at the end of the Second Age. They would consider the fates of those in Middle-earth to be out of their hands from that point. They would _not_ intervene until Dagor Dagorath.
I disagree on the final point. One important question to ask is this: What would Tolkien do? Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and Iluvetar is basically his stand-in for God. I don't see a situation in which He would completely abandon Middle-Earth. Not as long as the race of Men remain enslaved.
@@Aewon84that would only be if you see it as a story where things happen because the author wants it. I don't think that is the goal, you might argue though the Valar or Eru might care as they also send Gandalf back.
Agree fully on every point. This is probably exactly what would happen. I'd argue two more things would happen. First, Sauron would remain busy for decades extending his control over Arda. If Arda is indeed an approximate stand-in for Earth, then the lands to the South and east should be vast. I'd argue that most of his efforts would refocus on turning more of these lands into tributary vassals. This probably looks like politicking with a mix of direct action; turning men against men, as he surely did throughout the second and third ages in these regions. Second, I'd argue that he would continue to industrialize. Sauron's predisposition for order and crafts would invariably turn towards replicating the feats of Numenor, and possibly expanding upon them. The end result might be a kind of steak punk Mordor, which sounds way too cool. Faster transportation would certainly allow him to extend more direct control, so it's inevitable he would attempt to industrialize.
Suggesting Sauron would breed Hobbits for Fell Beast food is patently absurd. Sauron is not against innocence; he would probably claim the Hobbits were a good steward for his Ring, if he got it back. And He most certainly thought the 'hobbits' carrying the Ring were just doing so at the instruction of 'the Wise;' meaning, he would consider the Hobbits to be noting in ways of importance What you are describing as happening to the Hobbits is something Saruman would do; he did try to do that, but his power was so low, so he did what damage he could. That is extreme pettiness, which Sauron would not be petty, as he would be in a state of victory. Everything else you said seems to check out. But saying ' Hobbits kept the Ring from him' is just absurd, as they literally found it and were good stewards of it (this is in the version Sauron wins). Golem also was a good steward, keeping it for 500 years. Just because a single Hobbit carried the Ring at what Sauron would believe is the forcing of the so-called 'Wise,' I don't think Sauron would punish all hobbits for that
It would be fitting to Tolkien if Sauron ushered in an age of industrialisation, something that would work better with hordes of men than with the crude orc. Think hulking steam engines hauling resources across Middle Earth to whatever project of Saurons fancy. Probably making at least one mountain sized statue of himself.
He spent an entire chapter in return of the king talking about what if Sauron had won. It was when Frodo return to the Shire and found out a bunch of bandit lead by a mysterious old man. They had already industrialized and therefore destroyed the Shire, they even chopped the great oak party tree. This is an analogy to the author own experience with his childhood home where industrialization destroyed it.
In the story, Sauron ALMOST wins but does not because JRRT controlled the narrative. Obviously, it was wormwood to him that in the REAL world, Sauron and Saruman DID win, despite the outcome of WW2. And Tolkien didn't even live to see the Dawn of the 'Net, the true death of the natural world. The Ring (sin and the path to pure evil) is not destroyed, it resides in the hands and pockets of most humans walking the earth. What does he have in his pocketses? Satan. We all spend more time gazing into the palantir or the screen (the Eye of Sauron) than we do talking to each other, looking at the earth, sky, and living things, or praising Eru. We worship the machine and Sauron, the master of Order and quick delivery from Amazon. Can Sauron return? He never left our world.
Middle Earth 4K - Post World War 1 _(1920)_ technology and tactics. Combined fantastical elements and beings of Middle Earth. The new war is caused by Morgoth prophesied return and the first thing he does is forge a special power armor which Sauron's spirit can bind to. His spirit is also the power source for the armor. Morgoth is creating a nuclear bomb that uses an artificially created radioactive mithril isotope as the fission material _(with a yield of 15 Megatons)._ That also has a passage written in the language of Mordor inscribed in two sections upon it. That reads as one when it is compressed to critical mass. Releasing a curse with the explosion that is able to permanently kill any Valar and Maiar in the blast.
@@ItsDeebs the possibility of nuking a god to death is the best idea i have ever heard. honestly explain this idea to any ork and they would probably blush just thinking about it.
I believe there might be even more to Sauron's grudge against Numenor-& the later realms in exile-than merely being defeated by them during the War of Elves & Sauron. Numenor (& Gondor/Arnor) are ruled by the descendants of Luthien, & I think he still harbors a grudge over Luthien's humiliation of him on the Isle of Werewolves.
I think one major thing being ignored is the wave of industrialization that would follow Sauron's conquest. Infighting wouldn't necessarily reign supreme as you stated, partly because its counterproductive to efficiency, especially on an industrial scale. The Orcs would be phased out or relegated to a warrior caste while Men would be corrupted and/or forced to construct and build massive factories and tear down the natural splendor of Arda to help build whatever Sauron wants. You'd end up with a totally environmentally devastated landscape ruled by power hungry Sauron-aligned tyrants that oversee factories that build things for Sauron and continue to innovate in his name. Basically an industrial dystopia with no real end goal except infinite growth and efficiency.
orks could ironically end up being foreman or something close to it in saurons new society. they often have great experience with creating machines, not just for war. the idea of working in some sweatshop industrial building and your plant manager is a fucking ork has got to be the funniest situation to have in the hellscape that would be middle earth.
Exactly. This is Tolkien's point and anyone who misses this is lost in the weeds. Well said. Tolkien longed for the days of "less noise and more green." If you are driving on the outskirts of town and on one side of the road you see everything ripped up and paved over for the construction of another Amazon factory, that's Sauron's side. On the other side an untouched field with trees and grass, that's the Tolkien's side, Gandalf's side, the Shire side. This is real and in these terms, Sauron is wrecking our planet in what we might call the Great Regression - the time since the Industrial Revolution - and needs to be stopped.
@@graniteminerman i would say that it wasn't so much he was against industrialization moreso he was against the mass urbanization of the 20th century. despite what most people think plenty of green still exists almost everywhere. go to most rural areas in most countries and its pretty pleasant. the problem is that people are living in these cramped, polluted, and often expensive cities where any sense of beauty or tolerable aesthetic is torn out to be more 'efficient' to the point where most cities in the world have the exact same skyscrapers, and buildings that all look exactly the same. if you go to smaller towns you can still get the green that is desired without having to rip up fields for new parking lots.
@@sovietunion7643 Mass urbanization? If I had to pick between the two, I’d say industrialization wins without a contest. Urbanization traditionally results in centralized population, but with the many changes Tolkien had lived through what was once driven centralization through *upwards* growth now primarily expanded through *outward* growth-urban sprawl. So if it was urbanization as opposed to industrialization, it would not be the sort of typical city settings where pollution is increasingly concentrated, but instead the more modern ever increasing spread and decentralization of pollution. A bit of a reach? Definitely.
I always thought that Sauron's terms were a real compromise out of necessity. His biggest army was destroyed in the siege of Minas Tirith, his Umbar mercenaries too, and all other assaults over Middle Earth have failed. I dont think there is any indication that Sauron believes Aragorn and the forces of good are actually using the ring, just that he believes they are keeping it and might become corrupted by it. Sauron's peace offer to me was genuine, but temporary: he wants breathing time because his forces are depleted, and he knows that even if Aragorn's assault probably wont succeed, the remaining orc and easterling legions would be too damaged and this would set back his plans to continue assaulting the west and trying to get the ring or break the humans resistance, whatever comes first.
I think your interpretation is correct though the deception lies in the fact that Sauron will undoubtedly break these terms the moment he has rebuilt his strength and can continue waging war. Not to mention the fact that, Just as Saruman used Wormtongue to spy on and manipulate King Théoden so too would Sauron infiltrate the leadership of the west with spies and assassins and secret agents to weaken and shape the politics of the nations of men in preparation for the inevitable day that he once again breaks the peace. So would he actually leave the men of the west to govern their own affairs? Probably not. Or at least only in matters that do not concern him. Beyond that, his agents will be an ever present dagger, hiding around the every corner waiting to cut down any king or noble foolish enough to overstep the very narrow parameters of administrative activity that the dark lord would consider tolerable.
@@max-zv7sfthwt kinda hard to say. Do the books elaborate on how long it takes to breed and raise a new born orc into a battle ready adult? Regardless, whether it takes a year, or decades, you know Sauron is going to break that treaty as soon as he’s ready.
@@Saurophaganax1931 i haven't re- read the books in years, so I'm fuzzy on the details. But it is confirmed that Sauron controlled directly, or at the very least influenced, vast lands in the south and the east. Plus he had access to human and orc mercenaries. I think that the particulars of orc biology have never been explained, but if Saruman managed to develop and quite literally fabricate an army of Uruk, i think that the type of technology (or sorcery) to quickly make orcs is not alien to Sauron. Still, you're right, i have no verifiable sources to estimate how much time Sauron needs to raise a new army.
@@max-zv7sf and I mean Sauron was already harrassing Rohan with Orc raids before Theoden had even became king. So he was building his orc army for a good while before the events of the Lord of the Rings. But it is unclear though. For an immortal Maiar, a decade probably feels like a year.
And the baby boomers would argue it wasn't evil because it delivered packages to them, let them find books easily, and let them stream movies and shows for a low price. Workers peeing in bottles be damned!
I would LOVE to see an opinion video on why the Istari, and Gandalf in particular, utterly failed to prevent the destruction of the three Northern Kingdoms. Over a period of 974 years it appears that as free-ranging counselor Gandalf did little or nothing to bolster or stave off the aggression of Angmar. Why? Where was he? Was he hanging with the elves while the Northern Kingdoms disintegrated and fell to ruin? Did he, at the time, simply see the aggressions of Angmar as having nothing to do with the ultimate success or defeat of Sauron? Did he mistakenly view the entire period of war and strife as a squabble amongst human kingdoms--events that lie outside of his purview?
My theory is that he does help. Subtly. So much so that he doesn't even get credit for his aid. After all, Arthedain did survive for almost 1000 years. That's a long time. I feel like it could've easily fallen much sooner if it weren't for some sort of external, maybe even secret support. Besides, this would've been early in Gandalf's career in Middle-earth, so maybe he just didn't want to reveal himself yet, both to Sauron and to the leaders of men. And as for why he doesn't mention Arnor later on... maybe he just felt shame as he would have seen it as his first major failure? He does help the hobbits during the Long Winter of 2758, but his efforts were probably largely unknown, and subsequently forgotten, but that doesn't take from the fact that he likely saved the lives of many. I think the same was pretty much the case during the fall of Arnor. Even later on, with Thorin's company and the Fellowship, he clearly values secrecy above all else. This comes across as much a part of his character as it does a logical and wise thing to do in order to not alert the enemy of their quests.
It’s interesting Morgoths goal was the opposite of good. He wanted chaos and evil. Sauron actually wanted order. He just wanted order by power and force. If he won he would have forced all the peoples to follow his supreme rules “for their own good”. The little people would not have a voice because they were insignificant compared to him. Basically tolkien was inferring sauron was a persona of the world. Those in power will always look to put order in the world as they see fit, but they will drown out people they see beneath themselves and force them to follow the laws they put in place.
As explained by Tolkien, Sauron after the first age was truly repentant and he was not evil but for his great urge to build and put things in order. He was a bit like Germany after WW2 (My comparison, not Tolkien's!). But because his pride did not allow him to submit to the judgement of the Valar (Who would probably assign him a pennance like they did with Melkor earlier on), left to his own devices, over time, as he would draw on Morgoth's power which was still baked into the fabric of Arda, as he would struggle with adversity, he would grew more and more hateful; Tolkien's sources disagree as to whether he ever got close to Morgoth's level of evil. I recall one line saying he has became the living image of Morgoth, sometimes even claiming to be Morgoth himself who has returned; and nearly just as evil. But it is said elsewhere that Sauron never reached Morgoth's depths of destructive nihilism. He just wanted to bend eveything to his will and destroy those, who would oppose.
Morgoth essentially went insane, desiring to destroy the entire world, which would have at some point meant turning on Sauron and his other servants. Of course, Morgoth did not have the power to actually destroy the world.
I think if he did conquer middle earth he would probably attempt to attack the valar he would still hunger for more power and destruction in arda in my head canon he is similar to darth Vader he hated his master and loved him he feared him but say if morgoth returned I feel he would bend the knee not try to overthrow him but morgoth is definitely should be stronger as he is a valar and souroun is a maiar but yea if souroun won he would probably end up dead or banished because he would kill himself like angolient did as she hungered for light and it’s said she ate herself out of gluttony for more power Tolkiens writings are incredible if anyone cares to read this know I haven’t read the silmarillon or unfinished tales just LOTR and the hobbit
@@thegravewalker1519 Well, in some of the books you haven't read, Valinor is removed from the world so you can't get there anymore simply by sailing west. Sauron and his forces would have no way to reach Valinor nor would Sauron be stupid enough to take on the Valar, each of which was more powerful than him.
A question, is what does Sauron do with the orcs? If he doesn't slaughter them all they will seize territory that in virtually every case can be more productively ruled by tributary human kingsoms.
I'm not Sauron, but I would begin increasing the racial frictions between the different races of orc, and they would all but eradicate themselves in a civil war secretly organised by me. Divide and conquer, or rather; divide and annihilate. I would also offer "help" to some humans who would otherwise be my enemies, to eradicate the orcs and gain their trust and gratitude. God damn I'd make a great dictator.
In the short term, orcs make ideal enforcers and soldiers so aside from the occasional culling, they'd be allowed to live to exert Sauron's will. After all, they're pretty intimidating and have zero compassion. Ultimately though, yeah, they'd be exterminated once all resistance to Sauron is finally ended.
Well considering you aren't likely to get a bunch of humans to move into Mordor happily with no sun and a volcanic environment, I'd say Sauron could tell the orcs that they have achieved their destiny of bringing order to Middle Earth, and that now as their reward they may exist within the somewhat normal cities he establishes. He can put the Nazgul as governors over his cities in Mordor and the orcs have shown themselves capable of building, using strategy, and critically thinking. Sure, orcs are ugly and many are less intelligent than people, but many humans are also not as "intelligent" as you'd hope either. The orcs would do as Sauron commanded and the Nazgul would facilitate it.
I like how the imagery of Darth Gandalf videos goes hand in hand with his descriptions. At 6:50 he describes how Sauron would turn Minas Tirith into a dark fortress, not mentioning Minas Morgul, but its image is shown. Brilliant. The reality of Middle-Earth under Sauron would be much better than 1984. If he loves efficiency, then he will reward efficient people. A Tolkien Hater could even say that Sauron would overthrow the stagnant monarchies and establish Meritocracy XD
the interesting thing is that while he likely would not be very kind to Gondor, Rohan, the Dwarves, the Elves, the hobbits especially.. The Mannish Realms already under his rule are actually doing surprisingly alright. Rhun is pretty much thriving with the only conditions being worshipping Sauron, offering a tithe and answering a call for war when its required. Harad equally, tithes and the call to war along with the worship but they're thriving. He's not a benevolent leader by any means but he's not 100% pure evil to those that are loyal to him at the very least. Which honestly makes him a lot more interesting than a disney-level villain whos evil just for the sake of needing a bad guy for the story
I don't think we have enough information to really judge the state of the realms of men east and south of Mordor. Certainly, they were strong enough to field levies and build ships. We do know from Gollum that the south road extends very far. This at least indicates that parts of the south road under the control of other mannish kingdoms was maintained when Gollum was young. I suspect that Sauron's relationship with these lands was largely a tributary one, but with a direct religious element to that power. We know that he promoted a cult of Morgoth worship, mostly because he was aware that this part of Arda once had a strong Morgoth cult that he could reinvigorate to serve his own interests. I'd also argue that he might have directly ruled a few of these lands from time-to-time via proxy servants. We probably see a more pathetic version of this in Saruman's use of Grima. Saruman copied Sauron in all things, and this was probably no different. He did journey to the east, so it wouldn't be surprising if he witnessed this strategy of control and eventually thought he could do the same with Rohan. It probably wasn't all bad under Sauron, but probably not all good at all times either. Like any good imperial power, he probably played various factions off each other to eliminate rulers opposed to his will. This type of thing tends to be a pretty awful for civilians. At the same time, we don't really know how far these lands extend. If, by the third age, they are roughly analogous to Asia and Africa, as Tolkien clearly intended even from the time of the Hobbit, then distance and geographical features probably ment that many folk got on with their lives largely free of Sauron interference.
@@rexmagi4606 Modern governments are a form of evil so great, and people don't even realize. They take almost half of all our labor, via theft (taxes), and people are okay with it. Before, if a King tried to take even 10%, there would be uprisings The problem with democracies is that people think "government is controlled by people," when it isn't; democracy just spreads the blame to the people and allows mass corruption by those in power
So, here is a follow-up question. If Sauron does win, do the Valar ever intervene in Middle-Earth to put an end to him? I can just imagine them meeting and going "well the plan with the 5 Maia didn't work so what do we do now?"
After the second age the Valar layed down guardianship of Arda. Although the thought is compelling, it isn't likely. If they were to step in there could be speculation as to how and to what degree which merits a look into the nature of the valar. I would encourage you to recall also, while certainly some of the most powerful forces of good, there are still lesser forms of Arda-external beings of light, possibly more suited for the task as Sauron could never pose the threat Morgoth did, and thusly would not merit any involvement. The Maiar are not the only beings of power I reference.
Always ask yourself, in tricky situations, what would Sauron do? Rob a jewelry store is a modern alternative possibility. Diamonds are forever and a master ring is a girl's best friend after all
Amazing video bro thanks I believe after he conquers middle earth, he knows the Vala will intervene sooner or later so he would multiply his orcs and forteresses to get even stronger... he wont attack but will expect to defend from an attack Also middle earth is huge I believe if theres no intervention he would spread for the hole map in thousands of years
First thing that comes to mind is that he'd open two fastfood chains and claim they would compete with each other while secretely working together to spread obesity throughout Middle-Earth...
I'd do the same but with two coffee shops, both have identical menus, but one sounds fancier and charges more. Both would fill a specific niche: the expensive one attracts the wealthy clientele, the cheap one attracts people who are discouraged by the expensive one. Rinse and repeat as two franchises
I think there's a bigger question missed by this video which you might want to consider examining in a follow up. What would Ilúvatar do if Sauron won?
@@forickgrimaldus8301 I think something would happen similarly to the first age in which someone, probably a compassionate elf, would travel to Valinor to ask for help defeating Sauron since middle earth is failing. I think this time the destruction would be less, but it would be enough to where there is very little land left. I all believe depending on how much time Sauron has, he might be able to find, unbury, and summon more first age beasts to his side. As much as Sauron wouldn’t want to release Morgoth since he wants to keep power I think if he knew the Valar would come again he would try to release him to assist him. There would be no fourth age, and there was, it would be short and swift.
@@Lawnmower737 The Ainur were forbidden from taking direct action. If Sauron won the war of the last Alliance, for example, Ilúvatar would have a decision to make. Directly intervene, or allow events to play out and see the peoples of Middle Earth be enslaved, most of whom would be Humans, since Elves could flee to Valinor, and Dwarfs fortify their underground cities.
I think he was telling the truth in his terms. He clearly learned to give up his pride when victory required it after he was taken as a prisoner to Numenor. There is nothing glorious about whispering in the ear of a king who originally put you in chains and made you bow to him, but he did what he had to do. I think in the case of this treaty, Sauron knew if he gave the people these fairly easy terms, that many would probably lower their guard against him which would allow him to strengthen himself to the point where he could eventually demand more if the kingdoms of men ever refused to pay tribute or gave him any resistance. Sauron was not all-powerful and he was aware of this, despite the movie depiction of him being Satan.
I do have a question that does concern Valinor, but in reverse: would the Valar or Ilúvitar decide to swat Sauron after all even without Sauron attempting to assault Valinor himself? The context I bring to the table is the fact that the reason why the Valar didn't wage wars against evil in Middle Earth after the War of the Powers (that's a conflict that you missed in your War in Middle Earth, by the way 😛) is because doing so causes massive collateral damage, and the Valar didn't want to destroy Middle Earth or its peoples in trying to destroy Morgoth, or, later, Sauron. If Sauron were triumphant, however, then eventually there would be nothing worth not destroying by collateral damage, and everything to gain by creating a new world in its place. Might the actual ultimate consequence of Sauron winning the War of the Ring be that Middle Earth would be left, like Beleriand and Númenor before it, beneath the waves?
I think Sauron would actualize enterprise scale opportunities to expand core competencies and mindshare in order to drive best in class exponential potential. In other words despoil, exploit and ruin.
Nice video but I'm surprised you didn't mention Dagor Dagorath. Maybe Sauron in control over the world finds a way to help Melkor through the Door of Night.
If Sauron had won, there would be no point for him to put his own life in jeopardy by engaging in such a futile attempt. During the Second and Third (the Third age especially) Ages, Sauron emerged as his own master. While Sauron admired his former master, Morgoth was nothing more than a thing of the past for him. If Sauron had won, he would have had most of Middle-Earth (and eventually much of Arda) under his control; with that amount of power, it would be pointless in trying to free a nihilistic and destructive being such as Morgoth. Sauron would have viewed Morgoth as a major obstacle (and enemy) more than anything else; Sauron served only himself during the Third Age. Sauron was not going to willingly give up his power to anyone or anything after so much labor had been put into achieving his ultimate goal of the domination of Middle-Earth and the rest of Arda (only one Dark Lord could remain).
But why though? That would be the ONE thing to definitely trigger the Valar to intervene, and why would Sauron willingly subordinate himself to someone else when HE did all the hard work of conquering Middle Earth?
Paperwork, lots and lots of paperwork, even mordor need them and I doubt someone as order obsessed as sauron will let orcs do it, it had to be done by him personally, speaking of orcs I've heard a suggestion once that sauron might destroy them because they're so chaotic and random but idk if that's true since they're his primary forces
It's possible that men far outnumbered orcs in Sauron's forces if you count the total pool of manpower he could potentially muster. Remember that the bulk of Sauron's domains were the tributary lands to the east and south. These lands were mostly human realms as far as we are aware.
@@istari0 I think Sauron recognized the need for men early on, especially when it came to administration. I think you're right, they would have been phased out eventually.
Also, regarding the terms sent by the Mouth: I think Sauron sent them, because he had no reason not to. Aside from the reasons you mentioned, I think Sauron thought that maybe there's a chance (even if it's like a 0,00001% chance) that his terms would put some doubt in the hearts of the Coalition's members or something similar. He thought that he had already won - Coalition attacks, he beats them; Coalition retreats, he wins by conquest. Best case scenario? A more divided Coalition would deal him fewer casualties at best. The peace terms IMO were meant to be obviously unacceptable, but potentially could make someone think they are fighting a foe that is willing to parley.
The destruction of the Ents would be tragic. The Palantir would be gathered, and relocated. The hunt and extinction of the Eagles would be epic. Sauron commands through his fave palantir (the Denethor Burning Hands model). Why rush?
I don't think Sauron would be content with anything for long, he would keep pursuing new ambitious objectives just to fill the emptiness within him. The result Ardia would be an awful place to live as he spirals into insanity as his need to fill his existence with something becomes more irrational.
perhaps the opposite occurs. perhaps he realizes his irrationality is causing his new empire to falter which goes against his whole efficiency/survival of the fittest thing. perhaps he instead goes hard on the whole rational thinking with no emotion thing, which does solve one of his problems of being far too personal with his attacks but also makes middle earth even worse. rational thinking can honestly be just as, if not more deadly than irrational emotions. logic is somewhat fluid in that one can work on a technically logically correct line of thinking while being horribly brutal. a sauron who leans even more into his logical/efficiency mindset is a sauron who makes his dystopian society stronger and more fluid, able to adapt and not crumble within itself, like clockwork. an irrational sauron is someone who throws away their empire within a few centuries by mismanagement. a rational sauron is someone who makes such a cursed system work perfectly and keep all parts of human nature from toppling its reign.
@@sovietunion7643 But that only works if Sauron has the ability to do self-criticism, but he can not do that because he is a megalomaniacal control freak and perfectionist, he may make tactical changes but would not give up on his goal of making everything perfect by his standards. His desire for everything to be perfect would clash with the reality of existence, with that he would become more angry and frustrated with things and keep doubling down and the world keep progressively worse and hellish as strives to achieve his impossible dream and punish the inhabitants or Ardia for failing him. Megalomaniacs are never satisfied with anything for long and always want more. Hitler and Napoleon are good examples of this, they were the masters of Europe but that was not enough and in the end they destroyed what they built.
I have this feeling that if Sauron did win the war and was left to go on about conquering all of Middle Earth would be something the Valar would have to eventually intervene against and put a stop to him. If Sauron were just left to his own devices and in charge of the world, whats to stop him from going to work figuring out a way to open the doors that hold Morgoth in the timeless void and bringing about the Dagor Dagorath? If Sauron does that then its all inevitable anyways. The entirety of Valinor would be set upon the world with all of the fallen Elves and Men that had been slain by Morgoth and the world would be completely destroyed and remade again with the Silmarils being used to bring back the Trees of Light. I would have to imagine there would be a concerted effort to keep that from happening and seeing as how Sauron is about the only one left capable of trying to make it happen then the Valar would indeed come and swat him down.
Morgoth coming back through the Doors of Night and ushering in the Dagor Dagorath is a part of Eru's divine plan for Ea. I highly doubt even "God-King" Sauron would be able to influence this. Morgoth's return is a divinely ordained event after all. The Valar would consider the fates of all those in Middle-earth to be out of their hands in the event of Sauron's victory. The most they'd do is maybe keep an eye on Arda via the Eagles and other creatures, but I highly doubt they'd intervene again outside of very subtle methods.
The Valar only shyed away from direct actions in the third age due to the "battle of the powers" conflict that sought to capture Morgoth, a conflict that brought devastation to middle-earth, though they did not do nothing; for they sent the five Maiar (Istari) to indirectly improve the odds of good to survive and win (thus trying to do as little harm as possible, also why the Istari was not allowed to directly show who they where nor where they allowed to directly combat Sauron).
A pivotal point is when Aragorn takes the path of the dead. If Sauron prevents this and manages to kill Aragorn, the war is still not over. With Minas Tirith in ruins his forces will still have to defeat the rest of Gondor and the Swan knights, who will rally around their local leader. Saruman having defeated Rohan, would be another battle Saruman would have to fight. Orthanc would be rebuilt afterwards to guard passage to the West and fanghorn burnt to the ground. With the South and West secure, eyes would turn towards Galadriel.
If you want a basis for a psychological map of Sauron, you can't do much better than exploring his time as a Maia of Aule. There are some subtextual hints that Aule's relationship with the life-goddess Yavanna led to jealousy among Maia who regarded Aule's inorganic / metallic works more worthy. Also the direct statements of how much Aule's work and Melkor's work overlapped in the earliest ages. Sauron may have adopted Melkor as a surrogate father, feeling abandoned by Aule when he started working with Yavanna. Whatever Sauron wanted to do with unfettered power, it would probably have involved metal.
I'd like to preface the following wall of text by saying that I do get the point of this video. I clicked it, after all, and I quite enjoyed this take on it. I think the real, albeit boring answer, is that Sauron *couldn't* have won. The fact that the Valar didn't intervene and only sent the Istari in the form of Gandalf, Saruman, and others, ties in well with the idea that Tolkien didn't write the story to show how good triumphed over evil. As evidence for that, remember that the Valar barely even intervened against Morgoth, who was undoubtedly a much bigger threat than Sauron, and even then they only intervened after being begged to do so. Tolkien seems to have written LotR as a way of showing us that evil loses because of *what evil is*, not because of the actions of the good that fight them. Remember, Frodo doesn't actually toss the ring into Mount Doom. He *fails*, and Sauron loses anyway. That's important. To that end, the idea that Sauron *could* have won is sort of missing the point of the story, in the sense that one of the core ideas in Tolkien's writing is that evil is very often the architect of its own undoing. Sauron lost not because he wasn't *technically* capable of it, but because he was vain, and arrogant, and prideful, and underestimated not only the Shire-folk in Frodo and Samwise but also the rest of the Fellowship, and the free peoples as a whole. He lost because he literally couldn't conceive of their motivations, nor the measures they would take in order to ensure victory. He thought Aragorn was challenging him because he was arrogant, and corrupted by the Ring, and so on. Aragorn played into this perfectly, because Sauron literally couldn't conceive of a Man willingly taking on a suicide mission. That is to say, Tolkien's whole point in writing the story we eventually got -- if there was in fact a point beyond just telling a story worth telling -- is to show that evil ultimately always loses not because it isn't capable of doing so in a literal, objective sense, but because the very strategies and worldviews that lead a creature to be evil in the first place are the very qualities that prevent them from securing anything resembling a meaningful victory. It's fitting, then, that LotR ends not with Sauron being defeated upon the field of battle, but by Gollum and Frodo engaging in what amounts to a game of cosmic wrestling for a ring neither of them could destroy on their own. Sauron never feared that the ring would be destroyed because he literally could not conceive of any mortal creature being able to willfully destroy it. He reasoned that, faced with the possibility of that level of power, nobody would ever destroy it. He didn't lose because he *had* to lose in a fate sense, he lost because the very qualities that made him such a threat to Middle-Earth in the first place are the very qualities that prevent him from winning when it really matters.
Perfectly said. That being said, I do also feel that Tolkien may have had a logical answer for why Sauron's terms were, by the standards of an evil and authoritarian monster, so generous relative to his previous actions. In lockstep with your assessment of Tolkien's depiction of true evil as being naturally vain and short-sighted, one can't help but see a sense of desperation being conveyed by Sauron through his terms. As you said Aragorn's attack would've proven suicidal, but it nonetheless likely both caught Sauron off guard and had the potential to do significant damage to his remaining forces - which were still reeling from the near-total destruction of the armies at Minas Tirth and Dale. It seemed to occur to Sauron that he would need time to hunker down and rebuild, at least for a short while, before he could go on the offensive again. Tolkien knew his history, and history is rife with examples of conquerors that, having found themselves with less success than they anticipated, prove willing to sue for peace so they may rebuild and try again. Likewise, Sauron's use of his remaining might to leverage a disarmament out of the Men of the West is definitely designed to prevent his enemies from regaining their own strength. Just my interpretation.
The only way evil can truly triumph in that sense is to remake the world itself - and not just the world, but Heaven too. In short, evil would have to oust God, and condemn Him to Hell. That's what makes the Great Old Ones of Lovecraft fame so horrifying: the strongest ones could do just that without even trying - at least in Lovecraft's most pessimistic works.
are you are aware of the idea of grimdark? people enjoy the idea of sauron winning because of the dark world you can explore. just because people are missing the point of the moral message of tolkien doesn't make the idea any less tantalizing. look at warhammer fantasy. literally a world with chaotic being slowly encroaching at both ends, with the "order" races all at eachothers throats half the time. ask a wood elf in warhammer how hospitable elves can be. yet people love warhammer, because it sort of throws away some of the foundations of tolkien's world and says: "heres a world where everyone is well past their prime with evils both chaos and necromancer invading you frequently: have fun" a dark, hopeless world can be really fun to imagine because it gives a sense of "nothing matters so may as well try my best", while also giving the viewer a sense that their lives aren't so bad compared to how it could be in some cases.
How about a version from Sauron’s point of view, like how the book “Wicked” told the Oz story from the witches side. Sauron is just trying to get his lost property back and everybody is coming after him for doing that. And a Broadway musical version would be hilarious.
He actually did rule for several years in Middle Earth during the second age, he taxed, was a dictator of course, but left people to their own devices, and focused on his research.
I saw a theory once that said if Sauron won, Valinor would respond and send their host to middle earth again, with Tulkas, Aulë and Ëonwë leading the charge, breaking Sauron’s ring and sending him into the timeless void where Morgoth was sent.
Great video, thanks for sharing it! Tolkien's abandoned story 'Tal-Elmar' (published in The History of Middle-earth XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth) gives a fraction of an insight into what Middle-earth was like under Sauron's rule in the Second Age, at least for some of the 'Wild Men' living within his dominion - the Folk of Agar. It's not exactly a wonderful time, although the picture is complex. On the one hand, the protagonist, Tal-Elmar regards his situation being "born and bred in a decaying half-savage people". He seems to have some Edainic ancestry and takes a particularly dim view of his current circumstances. Even so, Sauron, pupil of Aulë and lover of order etc doesn't appear to have imparted much in the way of learning or technology. The Folk of Agar live in fear of the Dark and live what reads like a marginal existence. There are fields and farming but starvation is mentioned as a possibility, as well as the depredations of other Wild Men. On the other hand, the town of the Agar, as precarious as it is, is ruled by a 'town-master'. And while Master Mogru comes across as odious, he's not some warlord ruling through violence. The town has a Moot-hill, to which the male population can be summoned when decisions need to be made. This arrangement feels more akin to the situation in Lake-town, with its Master, or perhaps the Folkmoot of Brethil, than say the way the Easterlings organised themselves in occupied Hithlum. In other words, within the borders of a vast tyranny, some of those lorded over by Sauron managed a form of self-rule with a hint of, if not democracy, then at least some form of basic participative government.
it was said that during the last alliance members from almost any race fought on both sides. So I can see some dwarf clans accepting sauron after he won
I have yet to watch the rest of the video but Sauron is a creature who would want total control, to have complete control on what happens. It wouldn't be unheard of that once he got the humans and/or dwarfs fully under his control he would just murder all of the orcs and trolls. They kill each other all the time and say once they win they plan on leaving Sauron's control and make their own independent raiding parties. Not all of them, but a decent amount of them.
Good analysis. I think that on a personal level Sauron would take great pleasure in tormenting and enslaving any of his former enemies that fell into his hands. Galadriel would be in a lot of trouble, Elrond and Arwen too unless they could make it to the Havens before they fell. Politically, the Elves would probably be exterminated, the Dwarves driven deep underground, the Hobbits enslaved to feed the armies. With that all done and Sauron having the continent in his grasp, he might then look beyond to other lands - the Dark Land of the South, the Empty Lands where Aman once was, the Lands of the Sun to the East. But under no circumstances would he even attempt to assault Valinor; the Lords of the West were always rather isolationist and might accept his victory elsewhere, but if he annoyed them then he would swiftly be reminded of the difference between a Maia and a Vala. Would the Valar intervene? Gandalf didn't seem to expect them to. At best they might perhaps at some point have sent an expeditionary force under Eonwe, but there's no indication of that, and it's quite possible that the Valar would have been content to let time play out until the end of days.
The question is if sauron could forge someting More powerfull than the ring if he had entire middle earth under his control. I think it is interessting to think about that
Destroying the ring did not return the power he put into it and he did not have control over the world itself like Morgoth did so where would he draw this new power from? He himself had none left to spend on something else after he created the ring.
@@Sleepy.Time. good point but i meant in a scenario where he would have gotten the Ring and conquerd middle earth with it if he than may be able tho forge something more powerfull with the rings power
@@Balthasar_Gelt Morgoth is really the only example we have of a dark lord with a long rule and he seemed pretty spent by the time of his capture. The ring's destruction equaling Sauron's own destruction would make me believe he had nothing left to invest into a second even greater creation of its type.
@@Sleepy.Time. Yeah but im assuming the ring wasnt destroyed and he tool control of all of middle earth. He could forge even mightier artefakts with the one ring. Maybe maybe not
@@Sleepy.Time. he had much less power but NOT "none" Remember Sauron was by far the most powerful being in Middle-Earth (no one else even came close), indeed the only way anyone could rival him in power would be if the had The One Ring (remember Gandalf with the Ring = Sauron without the Ring).
Great video. In my opinion, I think Sauron would go out to destroy both Rivendell and Lorien as he saw them as threats. The realms of men he would enslave and add new leadership such as Black Numeroneans to rule Gondor and Rohan to make them serve and worship him and do his bidding. Isengard I believe would go to the Mouth of Sauron to control the area. Durins Folk and the Elves of Mirkwood would put up a fight in the north, but they would eventually perish or escape further north where Sauron influence is scarce. I think he would make all these kingdoms worship him but he would rule them through his 'selected' leaders as to not be too out in the open, to not catch the attention of the Valar or Iluvatar. After everything is under his command and control he would further focus on the East and South of Middle-Earth, and he would use his Puppet Kings to conquer the rest. With the ages there would be revolutions and heroes but none would be able to stop the God-King until Dagor Dagorath where Sauron would welcome his Master and fight with all his might and eventually lose to the Mighty Host of the Valar and all of Saurons ancient enemies.
I could totally see Sauron having a few hobbits as court jesters, not for comical reasons but just to frequently show them the ring as a reminder of their faulure.
Thank you so much for the video! Wild next video idea: After Sauron's defeat, What if Aragorn declares war to Rohan>? Could Gondor reconquer Calenardhon?
Why would they though? A perpetual ally who provide some of the best cavalry in Middle-earth, an area in which your massive kingdom massively benefits from that ally.
@Gwaihir the Windlord I was being sarcastic mostly. However don't rule out the possibility that future heirs of Eldarion will fuck it up eventually, being forgetful of history and the sacredness of their oath of friendship
@@Crafty_Spirit How far into the future are we talking then? Because if Arnor is sufficiently repopulated before this hypothetical war, then Rohan could be invaded from both sides. At the same time, if Arnor is sufficiently repopulated, the Reunited Kingdom could also become disunited again, as Arnor and Gondor have inherently different interests.
@@MrTreefoz If they keep a single monarch but divisions arise, and if the king is a demagogue, maybe he'll declare that Rohan is to become a province of the Reunited Kingdom so that Arnor and Gondor are no longer separated by a land border. It could work like the reunification of Italy, which was opposed by the Papal state that was set between the Northern alliance and the southern kingdom of Naples. This video really stimulated dark thoughts on the human nature 🤣🤣
At this point I think he would have viewed Morgoth as more of a potential rival than an ally. There’s only room for one dark lord in middle earth after all.
It's sort of questionable where The Door of Night is since the world is now round and doesn't have a west-most edge anymore, and the sun no longer needs an entrance point into the world. It presumably still exists somewhere since Melkor is apparently coming back through it, but if it's in Valinor Sauron can't get to it. Even if he could, does he have the power to alter it or to break it? I don't think so.
Probably not. Shelob is intelligent, but she's also incredibly simplistic in the sense that all she wants to do is eat. She wouldn't care for the One Ring, and probably wouldn't know what it is. I doubt it would affect her.
Tbh Sauron was so order oriented he’d probably just turn middle earth into our modern world with all of the bureaucracy and red tape and rules and industrialization
@@DarthGandalfYTthat wouldn’t be beneficial tbh. If Sauron got the ring, I envision him ruling Middle-Earth like how he subtly ruled Numenor through Ar-Pharazon in the Second Age. All would worship Sauron as a God-King and worship Morgoth, his master, or be sacrificed on his cruel altars.
I would love for someone to write a story set in a Middle Earth generations after a Sauron victory. Sauron is worshipped widely as a God King, with the societies of men revolving around this fact in their education and traditions, rapid mechanization has catapulted the tech level into a proto-industrial revolution, the countryside polluted, sprawling workshops and quarries, like a nightmarish Victorian England. The conflict could revolve around a wide sweeping guerilla resistance that inevitably springs up against such terrible conditions. Perhaps the mountain halls of the Dwarves in particular become like a Vietnam War equivalent for Sauron as he tries and fails to besiege their fortresses for years.
A very interesting video! Middle earth under Sauron rule would be like Stalin USSR. An evil empire based on order,fear,terror,human slavery and war industry. But as we know from our history all those who took power sooner or later there would be someone from Sauron lietenents try to overthrow him but it woud be a big failure.
@@AbstractTraitorHero USSR was a very evil empire,worse than Nazy Germany and USA. They brought communism in every country that they occupied and they installed in that countries terror and crime in the name of equal society.
@@Void-ez2it Exaggerating due to wisdom tooth pain, but the USSR while flawed was a good and democratic society. It was in no way an evil empire & to believe otherwise is to be uneducated. Even the Cia agreed that the Soviets were a democracy in internal documents and a Soviet is a form of democratic workers council.
To be honest, I think it'd be a matter of brinkmanship, not with the Valar but with High King Finarfin. At some point the thought would have to cross a rational political mind if invading Lindon would be the final straw which triggered a Second War of Wrath, just as the fall of Gondolin set in motion the events which triggered the first. Never drive your enemies into a corner and all that, and Lindon would likely be the last free land in the west, minus Dwarves under siege in their mansions. Of course as mentioned, Sauron might not be rational, and that might be for the best.
More like an Age of Oppression. A totalitarian state where naturally chaotic beings are forced into an unnaturally ordered society where everyone is a glorified cog
Here’s my thoughts. Sauron would turn Minas Tirith, along with Osgiliath into piles or rubble or make them like Minas Morgul. Secondly he’d torch Lothlorian and corrupt it like he did to the great forest. Then corrupt the hall of Thranduil, maybe destroy Erabor. Then completely wipe Rivendell off the map. Then destroy Lindon so badly it probably shares the fate of Beleriand (to finish Morgoth’s work). After that prepare for the Nier Nieth Ar Noiniead while ruling ad a god king.
Tolkein said if Morgoth won, he would get more and more saltier and begin to destroy everything including his own creation. Can't imagine he would be happy with Sauron's accomplishment when he broke free.
I would assume a decade after Saurons complete domination of Middle Earth, the Valar would eventually feel forced to intervene like they did when Morgoth pretty much had Middle Earth in his grasp
so perhaps the one misstep in LoTR is that terms at the Black Gate should have included the return of the trifle, the least of rings - and great gifts shall be given
Sauron did have a bit of a grudge against Laketown and Dale as the Necromancer due to allying with the dwarves of the Iron Hills and Erebor in the battle of five armies. He also hates the Woodland Elves under Thranduil and Legolas in the same matter
I always saw the 'reasonable' terms delivered by the Mouth of Sauron as being a case of judging the best way to sow division in Aragorns army . Offering nothing would have made them dig in with nothing to lose. Offering generous terms would be too incredible to be believed. Offering something a bit punitive but with a way out would be credible enough to weaken resolve of enough to reduce fighting strength a bit.
Yeah, it is pretty obvious. If people don't get this, then their analysis cannot be trusted due to not understanding basic machinations of geopolitics
It is the political way of implementing the mongol envelopment strategy of leaving a small hole that actually wasnt a small hole but a trap to lure division and divide and conquer.
@@pyropulseIXXI smh, I can’t believe Mairon became a geopolitics youtuber 😔
Machiavelian move
He would throw a big party, and invite all his favorite orcs. 😊
The age of men is over the age of RAVE BE GOOONE TUM TUMT TUM
Spruce up the place a bit, plant a few shrubs, and some flowers boxes around Barad-Dut
All fun till the Orkz arrive
@@itsmegoodbye9227 no because that’s when the true parting begins for the orkz at least
Do I hear Andrew WK?
Personally I think Sauron would rule over all of Middle-earth as a god-king. The various kingdoms of Men who submit to his rule would probably be arranged as satrapies, ruling in Sauron's name over their peoples but also being given significant autonomy. As long as tributes are paid, worship of Sauron (and by extension Morgoth) is maintained, and people don't cause uprisings, I would think Sauron would leave a lot of realms to their own devices.
Gondor would for sure bear the harshest brunt of Sauron's wrath, probably being destroyed rather than forced to submit. Gondor is a constant reminder of hated Numenor, and Elendil and his lines. He would not tolerate their existence, so he would probably bring the hammer down on them. Minas Tirith might be transformed into a twin of Minas Morgul, and Dol Amroth and other cities either being razed or taken over for Sauron's servants. The people of Gondor would probably be enslaved wholesale.
Rohan would probably be forced to submit to him, with a portion being partitioned off for the Dunlendings. Rohan's ability to raise horses would be very important for Sauron, plus good agriculture. So I think the realm might survive, but the line of Eorl would probably be destroyed or exiled, being supplanted by some other ruler. Probably the Mouth and any descendants he might have...
The Dwarves would probably either shut their doors for all time, or try to offer tribute or deals to Sauron. The Longbeards would cease to exist, but the other Dwarf houses would probably linger on.
However, it is the Orcs I feel would have a shocking fate meted out to them. They were historically unreliable and Sauron treated them as tools rather than as a people. Orcs are also, by nature, chaotic beings, so they are an antithesis to a entity so strongly aligned to Order such as Sauron. So I personally think Sauron would either exile them to remote areas of Middle-earth, where they would not be of much trouble for him again, or just have them destroyed. The various human realms under his rule might be enlisted to help in the latter case, in return for benefits from Sauron.
Hobbits kept the Ring from Sauron towards the end of the Third Age, and represent innocence and freedom. Sauron would either enslave them or worse. After all, Fell beasts and other monsters of Sauron need to eat too...
Any Elves that escape Sauron's clutches would probably leave Middle-earth forever and never return. The Valar would probably not intervene, as they had laid down their guardianship of Arda at the end of the Second Age. They would consider the fates of those in Middle-earth to be out of their hands from that point. They would _not_ intervene until Dagor Dagorath.
I disagree on the final point. One important question to ask is this: What would Tolkien do? Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and Iluvetar is basically his stand-in for God. I don't see a situation in which He would completely abandon Middle-Earth. Not as long as the race of Men remain enslaved.
@@Aewon84that would only be if you see it as a story where things happen because the author wants it. I don't think that is the goal, you might argue though the Valar or Eru might care as they also send Gandalf back.
Isn't Dagor Dagorat just a Numinoria tale of the end of the world with dubious credibility.
Agree fully on every point. This is probably exactly what would happen.
I'd argue two more things would happen. First, Sauron would remain busy for decades extending his control over Arda. If Arda is indeed an approximate stand-in for Earth, then the lands to the South and east should be vast.
I'd argue that most of his efforts would refocus on turning more of these lands into tributary vassals. This probably looks like politicking with a mix of direct action; turning men against men, as he surely did throughout the second and third ages in these regions.
Second, I'd argue that he would continue to industrialize. Sauron's predisposition for order and crafts would invariably turn towards replicating the feats of Numenor, and possibly expanding upon them. The end result might be a kind of steak punk Mordor, which sounds way too cool.
Faster transportation would certainly allow him to extend more direct control, so it's inevitable he would attempt to industrialize.
Suggesting Sauron would breed Hobbits for Fell Beast food is patently absurd. Sauron is not against innocence; he would probably claim the Hobbits were a good steward for his Ring, if he got it back. And He most certainly thought the 'hobbits' carrying the Ring were just doing so at the instruction of 'the Wise;' meaning, he would consider the Hobbits to be noting in ways of importance
What you are describing as happening to the Hobbits is something Saruman would do; he did try to do that, but his power was so low, so he did what damage he could. That is extreme pettiness, which Sauron would not be petty, as he would be in a state of victory.
Everything else you said seems to check out. But saying ' Hobbits kept the Ring from him' is just absurd, as they literally found it and were good stewards of it (this is in the version Sauron wins). Golem also was a good steward, keeping it for 500 years. Just because a single Hobbit carried the Ring at what Sauron would believe is the forcing of the so-called 'Wise,' I don't think Sauron would punish all hobbits for that
It would be fitting to Tolkien if Sauron ushered in an age of industrialisation, something that would work better with hordes of men than with the crude orc. Think hulking steam engines hauling resources across Middle Earth to whatever project of Saurons fancy. Probably making at least one mountain sized statue of himself.
He spent an entire chapter in return of the king talking about what if Sauron had won. It was when Frodo return to the Shire and found out a bunch of bandit lead by a mysterious old man. They had already industrialized and therefore destroyed the Shire, they even chopped the great oak party tree.
This is an analogy to the author own experience with his childhood home where industrialization destroyed it.
In the story, Sauron ALMOST wins but does not because JRRT controlled the narrative. Obviously, it was wormwood to him that in the REAL world, Sauron and Saruman DID win, despite the outcome of WW2. And Tolkien didn't even live to see the Dawn of the 'Net, the true death of the natural world.
The Ring (sin and the path to pure evil) is not destroyed, it resides in the hands and pockets of most humans walking the earth. What does he have in his pocketses?
Satan.
We all spend more time gazing into the palantir or the screen (the Eye of Sauron) than we do talking to each other, looking at the earth, sky, and living things, or praising Eru. We worship the machine and Sauron, the master of Order and quick delivery from Amazon.
Can Sauron return? He never left our world.
Middle Earth 4K - Post World War 1 _(1920)_ technology and tactics. Combined fantastical elements and beings of Middle Earth.
The new war is caused by Morgoth prophesied return and the first thing he does is forge a special power armor which Sauron's spirit can bind to. His spirit is also the power source for the armor.
Morgoth is creating a nuclear bomb that uses an artificially created radioactive mithril isotope as the fission material _(with a yield of 15 Megatons)._ That also has a passage written in the language of Mordor inscribed in two sections upon it. That reads as one when it is compressed to critical mass. Releasing a curse with the explosion that is able to permanently kill any Valar and Maiar in the blast.
@@ItsDeebs the possibility of nuking a god to death is the best idea i have ever heard. honestly explain this idea to any ork and they would probably blush just thinking about it.
“Except there is one problem…Sauron is a massive liar”
And there the battle for middle earth has begun…again
... and everyone knows it
So, basically it'd be like living in a HOA.
I believe there might be even more to Sauron's grudge against Numenor-& the later realms in exile-than merely being defeated by them during the War of Elves & Sauron. Numenor (& Gondor/Arnor) are ruled by the descendants of Luthien, & I think he still harbors a grudge over Luthien's humiliation of him on the Isle of Werewolves.
Now that's an interesting thought.
I wouldn’t be surprised
I think one major thing being ignored is the wave of industrialization that would follow Sauron's conquest. Infighting wouldn't necessarily reign supreme as you stated, partly because its counterproductive to efficiency, especially on an industrial scale. The Orcs would be phased out or relegated to a warrior caste while Men would be corrupted and/or forced to construct and build massive factories and tear down the natural splendor of Arda to help build whatever Sauron wants. You'd end up with a totally environmentally devastated landscape ruled by power hungry Sauron-aligned tyrants that oversee factories that build things for Sauron and continue to innovate in his name. Basically an industrial dystopia with no real end goal except infinite growth and efficiency.
orks could ironically end up being foreman or something close to it in saurons new society. they often have great experience with creating machines, not just for war.
the idea of working in some sweatshop industrial building and your plant manager is a fucking ork has got to be the funniest situation to have in the hellscape that would be middle earth.
Exactly. This is Tolkien's point and anyone who misses this is lost in the weeds. Well said. Tolkien longed for the days of "less noise and more green." If you are driving on the outskirts of town and on one side of the road you see everything ripped up and paved over for the construction of another Amazon factory, that's Sauron's side. On the other side an untouched field with trees and grass, that's the Tolkien's side, Gandalf's side, the Shire side. This is real and in these terms, Sauron is wrecking our planet in what we might call the Great Regression - the time since the Industrial Revolution - and needs to be stopped.
@@graniteminerman i would say that it wasn't so much he was against industrialization moreso he was against the mass urbanization of the 20th century. despite what most people think plenty of green still exists almost everywhere. go to most rural areas in most countries and its pretty pleasant. the problem is that people are living in these cramped, polluted, and often expensive cities where any sense of beauty or tolerable aesthetic is torn out to be more 'efficient' to the point where most cities in the world have the exact same skyscrapers, and buildings that all look exactly the same. if you go to smaller towns you can still get the green that is desired without having to rip up fields for new parking lots.
@@sovietunion7643 Mass urbanization? If I had to pick between the two, I’d say industrialization wins without a contest. Urbanization traditionally results in centralized population, but with the many changes Tolkien had lived through what was once driven centralization through *upwards* growth now primarily expanded through *outward* growth-urban sprawl. So if it was urbanization as opposed to industrialization, it would not be the sort of typical city settings where pollution is increasingly concentrated, but instead the more modern ever increasing spread and decentralization of pollution.
A bit of a reach? Definitely.
Sauron is a Factorio player
1:37 No one that asks you to bear no weapons, is willing to give peace. People should know that by now, but apparently some of us forgot it.
nah, give us your guns bro, it will be fine
It worked for the native Americans. Right?
Based 🇺🇲
I see the insecurity squad has assembled
@Funkopotomis Or to call them by what their fellow Brits called them: Injuns.
I always thought that Sauron's terms were a real compromise out of necessity. His biggest army was destroyed in the siege of Minas Tirith, his Umbar mercenaries too, and all other assaults over Middle Earth have failed. I dont think there is any indication that Sauron believes Aragorn and the forces of good are actually using the ring, just that he believes they are keeping it and might become corrupted by it. Sauron's peace offer to me was genuine, but temporary: he wants breathing time because his forces are depleted, and he knows that even if Aragorn's assault probably wont succeed, the remaining orc and easterling legions would be too damaged and this would set back his plans to continue assaulting the west and trying to get the ring or break the humans resistance, whatever comes first.
I think your interpretation is correct though the deception lies in the fact that Sauron will undoubtedly break these terms the moment he has rebuilt his strength and can continue waging war. Not to mention the fact that, Just as Saruman used Wormtongue to spy on and manipulate King Théoden so too would Sauron infiltrate the leadership of the west with spies and assassins and secret agents to weaken and shape the politics of the nations of men in preparation for the inevitable day that he once again breaks the peace. So would he actually leave the men of the west to govern their own affairs? Probably not. Or at least only in matters that do not concern him. Beyond that, his agents will be an ever present dagger, hiding around the every corner waiting to cut down any king or noble foolish enough to overstep the very narrow parameters of administrative activity that the dark lord would consider tolerable.
Exactly, Sauron still controlled vast resources and could probably just raise new armies from the east and make new orcs, but in maybe a year or so.
@@max-zv7sfthwt kinda hard to say. Do the books elaborate on how long it takes to breed and raise a new born orc into a battle ready adult? Regardless, whether it takes a year, or decades, you know Sauron is going to break that treaty as soon as he’s ready.
@@Saurophaganax1931 i haven't re- read the books in years, so I'm fuzzy on the details. But it is confirmed that Sauron controlled directly, or at the very least influenced, vast lands in the south and the east. Plus he had access to human and orc mercenaries.
I think that the particulars of orc biology have never been explained, but if Saruman managed to develop and quite literally fabricate an army of Uruk, i think that the type of technology (or sorcery) to quickly make orcs is not alien to Sauron.
Still, you're right, i have no verifiable sources to estimate how much time Sauron needs to raise a new army.
@@max-zv7sf and I mean Sauron was already harrassing Rohan with Orc raids before Theoden had even became king. So he was building his orc army for a good while before the events of the Lord of the Rings. But it is unclear though. For an immortal Maiar, a decade probably feels like a year.
He'd invent Amazon.
And the baby boomers would argue it wasn't evil because it delivered packages to them, let them find books easily, and let them stream movies and shows for a low price. Workers peeing in bottles be damned!
If Sauron won and then decided to go into space, I'm pretty sure that his empire would be almost identical to the Imperium of Man from Warhammer40k
I would LOVE to see an opinion video on why the Istari, and Gandalf in particular, utterly failed to prevent the destruction of the three Northern Kingdoms. Over a period of 974 years it appears that as free-ranging counselor Gandalf did little or nothing to bolster or stave off the aggression of Angmar. Why? Where was he? Was he hanging with the elves while the Northern Kingdoms disintegrated and fell to ruin? Did he, at the time, simply see the aggressions of Angmar as having nothing to do with the ultimate success or defeat of Sauron? Did he mistakenly view the entire period of war and strife as a squabble amongst human kingdoms--events that lie outside of his purview?
Rare oversight by Tolkien.
Good question
Doesn’t gandalf only arrive around TA 1000
@@mly9377 Yes. The Angmar Wars started about 300 years later.
My theory is that he does help. Subtly. So much so that he doesn't even get credit for his aid. After all, Arthedain did survive for almost 1000 years. That's a long time. I feel like it could've easily fallen much sooner if it weren't for some sort of external, maybe even secret support. Besides, this would've been early in Gandalf's career in Middle-earth, so maybe he just didn't want to reveal himself yet, both to Sauron and to the leaders of men. And as for why he doesn't mention Arnor later on... maybe he just felt shame as he would have seen it as his first major failure?
He does help the hobbits during the Long Winter of 2758, but his efforts were probably largely unknown, and subsequently forgotten, but that doesn't take from the fact that he likely saved the lives of many. I think the same was pretty much the case during the fall of Arnor. Even later on, with Thorin's company and the Fellowship, he clearly values secrecy above all else. This comes across as much a part of his character as it does a logical and wise thing to do in order to not alert the enemy of their quests.
It’s interesting Morgoths goal was the opposite of good. He wanted chaos and evil. Sauron actually wanted order. He just wanted order by power and force. If he won he would have forced all the peoples to follow his supreme rules “for their own good”. The little people would not have a voice because they were insignificant compared to him. Basically tolkien was inferring sauron was a persona of the world. Those in power will always look to put order in the world as they see fit, but they will drown out people they see beneath themselves and force them to follow the laws they put in place.
As explained by Tolkien, Sauron after the first age was truly repentant and he was not evil but for his great urge to build and put things in order. He was a bit like Germany after WW2 (My comparison, not Tolkien's!). But because his pride did not allow him to submit to the judgement of the Valar (Who would probably assign him a pennance like they did with Melkor earlier on), left to his own devices, over time, as he would draw on Morgoth's power which was still baked into the fabric of Arda, as he would struggle with adversity, he would grew more and more hateful; Tolkien's sources disagree as to whether he ever got close to Morgoth's level of evil. I recall one line saying he has became the living image of Morgoth, sometimes even claiming to be Morgoth himself who has returned; and nearly just as evil. But it is said elsewhere that Sauron never reached Morgoth's depths of destructive nihilism. He just wanted to bend eveything to his will and destroy those, who would oppose.
Morgoth essentially went insane, desiring to destroy the entire world, which would have at some point meant turning on Sauron and his other servants. Of course, Morgoth did not have the power to actually destroy the world.
I think if he did conquer middle earth he would probably attempt to attack the valar he would still hunger for more power and destruction in arda in my head canon he is similar to darth Vader he hated his master and loved him he feared him but say if morgoth returned I feel he would bend the knee not try to overthrow him but morgoth is definitely should be stronger as he is a valar and souroun is a maiar but yea if souroun won he would probably end up dead or banished because he would kill himself like angolient did as she hungered for light and it’s said she ate herself out of gluttony for more power Tolkiens writings are incredible if anyone cares to read this know I haven’t read the silmarillon or unfinished tales just LOTR and the hobbit
@@thegravewalker1519 Well, in some of the books you haven't read, Valinor is removed from the world so you can't get there anymore simply by sailing west. Sauron and his forces would have no way to reach Valinor nor would Sauron be stupid enough to take on the Valar, each of which was more powerful than him.
I think the penance the Valor would've judged sauron would've Been to build things but under orders. To repair what he helped destroy
Interesting information that Sauron had been truly repentant, although it didn't last.
A question, is what does Sauron do with the orcs? If he doesn't slaughter them all they will seize territory that in virtually every case can be more productively ruled by tributary human kingsoms.
I'm not Sauron, but I would begin increasing the racial frictions between the different races of orc, and they would all but eradicate themselves in a civil war secretly organised by me. Divide and conquer, or rather; divide and annihilate.
I would also offer "help" to some humans who would otherwise be my enemies, to eradicate the orcs and gain their trust and gratitude.
God damn I'd make a great dictator.
In the short term, orcs make ideal enforcers and soldiers so aside from the occasional culling, they'd be allowed to live to exert Sauron's will. After all, they're pretty intimidating and have zero compassion.
Ultimately though, yeah, they'd be exterminated once all resistance to Sauron is finally ended.
Well considering you aren't likely to get a bunch of humans to move into Mordor happily with no sun and a volcanic environment, I'd say Sauron could tell the orcs that they have achieved their destiny of bringing order to Middle Earth, and that now as their reward they may exist within the somewhat normal cities he establishes. He can put the Nazgul as governors over his cities in Mordor and the orcs have shown themselves capable of building, using strategy, and critically thinking. Sure, orcs are ugly and many are less intelligent than people, but many humans are also not as "intelligent" as you'd hope either. The orcs would do as Sauron commanded and the Nazgul would facilitate it.
@@user_name_redacted You'd make a good leader of societal collapse. Your "great dictator" strategy is to kill off your main work force?
Keep them fighting amongst each other until a severe external threat emerges.
I like how the imagery of Darth Gandalf videos goes hand in hand with his descriptions. At 6:50 he describes how Sauron would turn Minas Tirith into a dark fortress, not mentioning Minas Morgul, but its image is shown. Brilliant.
The reality of Middle-Earth under Sauron would be much better than 1984. If he loves efficiency, then he will reward efficient people. A Tolkien Hater could even say that Sauron would overthrow the stagnant monarchies and establish Meritocracy XD
"LOL git gud, scrubs!"
-Sauron after his victory. Probably.
the interesting thing is that while he likely would not be very kind to Gondor, Rohan, the Dwarves, the Elves, the hobbits especially.. The Mannish Realms already under his rule are actually doing surprisingly alright. Rhun is pretty much thriving with the only conditions being worshipping Sauron, offering a tithe and answering a call for war when its required.
Harad equally, tithes and the call to war along with the worship but they're thriving. He's not a benevolent leader by any means but he's not 100% pure evil to those that are loyal to him at the very least. Which honestly makes him a lot more interesting than a disney-level villain whos evil just for the sake of needing a bad guy for the story
I don't think we have enough information to really judge the state of the realms of men east and south of Mordor. Certainly, they were strong enough to field levies and build ships. We do know from Gollum that the south road extends very far. This at least indicates that parts of the south road under the control of other mannish kingdoms was maintained when Gollum was young.
I suspect that Sauron's relationship with these lands was largely a tributary one, but with a direct religious element to that power. We know that he promoted a cult of Morgoth worship, mostly because he was aware that this part of Arda once had a strong Morgoth cult that he could reinvigorate to serve his own interests.
I'd also argue that he might have directly ruled a few of these lands from time-to-time via proxy servants. We probably see a more pathetic version of this in Saruman's use of Grima. Saruman copied Sauron in all things, and this was probably no different. He did journey to the east, so it wouldn't be surprising if he witnessed this strategy of control and eventually thought he could do the same with Rohan.
It probably wasn't all bad under Sauron, but probably not all good at all times either. Like any good imperial power, he probably played various factions off each other to eliminate rulers opposed to his will. This type of thing tends to be a pretty awful for civilians. At the same time, we don't really know how far these lands extend. If, by the third age, they are roughly analogous to Asia and Africa, as Tolkien clearly intended even from the time of the Hobbit, then distance and geographical features probably ment that many folk got on with their lives largely free of Sauron interference.
So Sauron is more generous than the federal government is what you're saying.
We don't know any of that. That's all made up.
@@rexmagi4606 Modern governments are a form of evil so great, and people don't even realize. They take almost half of all our labor, via theft (taxes), and people are okay with it. Before, if a King tried to take even 10%, there would be uprisings
The problem with democracies is that people think "government is controlled by people," when it isn't; democracy just spreads the blame to the people and allows mass corruption by those in power
@@rexmagi4606american several government is as bad that even living In Mordor would be better.
That last sentence makes me believe Sauron is in command and snatching every Mfer's birthday.
I gon snatch every motherfucka birfday
So, here is a follow-up question. If Sauron does win, do the Valar ever intervene in Middle-Earth to put an end to him? I can just imagine them meeting and going "well the plan with the 5 Maia didn't work so what do we do now?"
After the second age the Valar layed down guardianship of Arda. Although the thought is compelling, it isn't likely.
If they were to step in there could be speculation as to how and to what degree which merits a look into the nature of the valar.
I would encourage you to recall also, while certainly some of the most powerful forces of good, there are still lesser forms of Arda-external beings of light, possibly more suited for the task as Sauron could never pose the threat Morgoth did, and thusly would not merit any involvement. The Maiar are not the only beings of power I reference.
sauron gangster till the valar send medieval Doom guy out to go get him.
Always ask yourself, in tricky situations, what would Sauron do? Rob a jewelry store is a modern alternative possibility. Diamonds are forever and a master ring is a girl's best friend after all
Amazing video bro thanks
I believe after he conquers middle earth, he knows the Vala will intervene sooner or later so he would multiply his orcs and forteresses to get even stronger... he wont attack but will expect to defend from an attack
Also middle earth is huge I believe if theres no intervention he would spread for the hole map in thousands of years
First thing that comes to mind is that he'd open two fastfood chains and claim they would compete with each other while secretely working together to spread obesity throughout Middle-Earth...
I'd do the same but with two coffee shops, both have identical menus, but one sounds fancier and charges more. Both would fill a specific niche: the expensive one attracts the wealthy clientele, the cheap one attracts people who are discouraged by the expensive one.
Rinse and repeat as two franchises
I think there's a bigger question missed by this video which you might want to consider examining in a follow up. What would Ilúvatar do if Sauron won?
Reset
@@forickgrimaldus8301 I think something would happen similarly to the first age in which someone, probably a compassionate elf, would travel to Valinor to ask for help defeating Sauron since middle earth is failing. I think this time the destruction would be less, but it would be enough to where there is very little land left. I all believe depending on how much time Sauron has, he might be able to find, unbury, and summon more first age beasts to his side. As much as Sauron wouldn’t want to release Morgoth since he wants to keep power I think if he knew the Valar would come again he would try to release him to assist him. There would be no fourth age, and there was, it would be short and swift.
@@Lawnmower737 The Ainur were forbidden from taking direct action. If Sauron won the war of the last Alliance, for example, Ilúvatar would have a decision to make. Directly intervene, or allow events to play out and see the peoples of Middle Earth be enslaved, most of whom would be Humans, since Elves could flee to Valinor, and Dwarfs fortify their underground cities.
He would cry more.
@@rexmagi4606 No, that’s Nienna’s job.
I think he was telling the truth in his terms. He clearly learned to give up his pride when victory required it after he was taken as a prisoner to Numenor. There is nothing glorious about whispering in the ear of a king who originally put you in chains and made you bow to him, but he did what he had to do. I think in the case of this treaty, Sauron knew if he gave the people these fairly easy terms, that many would probably lower their guard against him which would allow him to strengthen himself to the point where he could eventually demand more if the kingdoms of men ever refused to pay tribute or gave him any resistance. Sauron was not all-powerful and he was aware of this, despite the movie depiction of him being Satan.
Your advice at the end really goes to the heart. I’ll endeavor to be even more useless in case a real life Sauron shows up.
I do have a question that does concern Valinor, but in reverse: would the Valar or Ilúvitar decide to swat Sauron after all even without Sauron attempting to assault Valinor himself?
The context I bring to the table is the fact that the reason why the Valar didn't wage wars against evil in Middle Earth after the War of the Powers (that's a conflict that you missed in your War in Middle Earth, by the way 😛) is because doing so causes massive collateral damage, and the Valar didn't want to destroy Middle Earth or its peoples in trying to destroy Morgoth, or, later, Sauron. If Sauron were triumphant, however, then eventually there would be nothing worth not destroying by collateral damage, and everything to gain by creating a new world in its place. Might the actual ultimate consequence of Sauron winning the War of the Ring be that Middle Earth would be left, like Beleriand and Númenor before it, beneath the waves?
I think Sauron would actualize enterprise scale opportunities to expand core competencies and mindshare in order to drive best in class exponential potential.
In other words despoil, exploit and ruin.
15:12 Checking - yes, it's bright and sunny and Parisian outside.
Thanks for the good wish.
Nice video but I'm surprised you didn't mention Dagor Dagorath. Maybe Sauron in control over the world finds a way to help Melkor through the Door of Night.
If Sauron had won, there would be no point for him to put his own life in jeopardy by engaging in such a futile attempt. During the Second and Third (the Third age especially) Ages, Sauron emerged as his own master. While Sauron admired his former master, Morgoth was nothing more than a thing of the past for him. If Sauron had won, he would have had most of Middle-Earth (and eventually much of Arda) under his control; with that amount of power, it would be pointless in trying to free a nihilistic and destructive being such as Morgoth. Sauron would have viewed Morgoth as a major obstacle (and enemy) more than anything else; Sauron served only himself during the Third Age. Sauron was not going to willingly give up his power to anyone or anything after so much labor had been put into achieving his ultimate goal of the domination of Middle-Earth and the rest of Arda (only one Dark Lord could remain).
But why though? That would be the ONE thing to definitely trigger the Valar to intervene, and why would Sauron willingly subordinate himself to someone else when HE did all the hard work of conquering Middle Earth?
@@KaiHung-wv3ul Fair point. Sauron was very logical, methodical, and safe, but the guy did hold grudges that would sometimes overrule all of that.
Paperwork, lots and lots of paperwork, even mordor need them and I doubt someone as order obsessed as sauron will let orcs do it, it had to be done by him personally, speaking of orcs I've heard a suggestion once that sauron might destroy them because they're so chaotic and random but idk if that's true since they're his primary forces
It's possible that men far outnumbered orcs in Sauron's forces if you count the total pool of manpower he could potentially muster. Remember that the bulk of Sauron's domains were the tributary lands to the east and south. These lands were mostly human realms as far as we are aware.
I suspect over time he would have replaced Orcs with Men.
@@istari0 I think Sauron recognized the need for men early on, especially when it came to administration. I think you're right, they would have been phased out eventually.
I'm just imagining Sauron behind an accountant's desk.
@@KaiHung-wv3ul How much do you want to bet that the top 2/3rds of Baradur were full of human pencil-pushers?
Thanks for the content greetings from Toronto love everything you do 🙃
So basically, Sauron just has really, really bad OCD...
What if Feanor did anything wrong? (since he never did anything bad in canon, that is)
Kinslaying? Burning the ships? Feanor was a world class d*ckhead who did more wrong than right.
Sillmarilion would be a pamflet
Bro, the first kinslaying left the chat
@@zayedbinimran957 It never happened, and even if it did, the Teleri deserved it.
@@JustHereForCatVideos bruh, it is a cannon thing it happened💀 and it was bad
Also, regarding the terms sent by the Mouth: I think Sauron sent them, because he had no reason not to. Aside from the reasons you mentioned, I think Sauron thought that maybe there's a chance (even if it's like a 0,00001% chance) that his terms would put some doubt in the hearts of the Coalition's members or something similar. He thought that he had already won - Coalition attacks, he beats them; Coalition retreats, he wins by conquest. Best case scenario? A more divided Coalition would deal him fewer casualties at best. The peace terms IMO were meant to be obviously unacceptable, but potentially could make someone think they are fighting a foe that is willing to parley.
He'd create a perfectly ordered utopian paradise. Which is his entire motivation.
Thank you for the video, it's great material. I hope you make one video supposing Saruman captures the one ring before the Nazgul do.
how sauron would treat his defeated enemies? "tasty meats for orcs to eat!"
The game ends and he starts a new round of Age of Empires 2.
EXCELLENT VIDEO, PLEASE KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK 🙏🏿☀️👊🏿
The destruction of the Ents would be tragic.
The Palantir would be gathered, and relocated.
The hunt and extinction of the Eagles would be epic.
Sauron commands through his fave palantir (the Denethor Burning Hands model).
Why rush?
Really really enjoyed this video. Thanks 🧝♂️
Let’s see Sauron’s tax policy
I don't think Sauron would be content with anything for long, he would keep pursuing new ambitious objectives just to fill the emptiness within him. The result Ardia would be an awful place to live as he spirals into insanity as his need to fill his existence with something becomes more irrational.
perhaps the opposite occurs. perhaps he realizes his irrationality is causing his new empire to falter which goes against his whole efficiency/survival of the fittest thing. perhaps he instead goes hard on the whole rational thinking with no emotion thing, which does solve one of his problems of being far too personal with his attacks but also makes middle earth even worse.
rational thinking can honestly be just as, if not more deadly than irrational emotions. logic is somewhat fluid in that one can work on a technically logically correct line of thinking while being horribly brutal. a sauron who leans even more into his logical/efficiency mindset is a sauron who makes his dystopian society stronger and more fluid, able to adapt and not crumble within itself, like clockwork.
an irrational sauron is someone who throws away their empire within a few centuries by mismanagement. a rational sauron is someone who makes such a cursed system work perfectly and keep all parts of human nature from toppling its reign.
@@sovietunion7643 But that only works if Sauron has the ability to do self-criticism, but he can not do that because he is a megalomaniacal control freak and perfectionist, he may make tactical changes but would not give up on his goal of making everything perfect by his standards. His desire for everything to be perfect would clash with the reality of existence, with that he would become more angry and frustrated with things and keep doubling down and the world keep progressively worse and hellish as strives to achieve his impossible dream and punish the inhabitants or Ardia for failing him. Megalomaniacs are never satisfied with anything for long and always want more. Hitler and Napoleon are good examples of this, they were the masters of Europe but that was not enough and in the end they destroyed what they built.
@@sovietunion7643 He’d need to take notes from the Golden Order. …Huh, funny how they also revolve around one ring to rule them all.
Even 12-year old me reading The Return of the King for the first time called bullshit on The Mouth's terms.
Well, it wouldn't help Middle Earth's tourism industry...
I have this feeling that if Sauron did win the war and was left to go on about conquering all of Middle Earth would be something the Valar would have to eventually intervene against and put a stop to him. If Sauron were just left to his own devices and in charge of the world, whats to stop him from going to work figuring out a way to open the doors that hold Morgoth in the timeless void and bringing about the Dagor Dagorath? If Sauron does that then its all inevitable anyways. The entirety of Valinor would be set upon the world with all of the fallen Elves and Men that had been slain by Morgoth and the world would be completely destroyed and remade again with the Silmarils being used to bring back the Trees of Light. I would have to imagine there would be a concerted effort to keep that from happening and seeing as how Sauron is about the only one left capable of trying to make it happen then the Valar would indeed come and swat him down.
Morgoth coming back through the Doors of Night and ushering in the Dagor Dagorath is a part of Eru's divine plan for Ea. I highly doubt even "God-King" Sauron would be able to influence this. Morgoth's return is a divinely ordained event after all.
The Valar would consider the fates of all those in Middle-earth to be out of their hands in the event of Sauron's victory. The most they'd do is maybe keep an eye on Arda via the Eagles and other creatures, but I highly doubt they'd intervene again outside of very subtle methods.
The Valar only shyed away from direct actions in the third age due to the "battle of the powers" conflict that sought to capture Morgoth, a conflict that brought devastation to middle-earth, though they did not do nothing; for they sent the five Maiar (Istari) to indirectly improve the odds of good to survive and win (thus trying to do as little harm as possible, also why the Istari was not allowed to directly show who they where nor where they allowed to directly combat Sauron).
A pivotal point is when Aragorn takes the path of the dead. If Sauron prevents this and manages to kill Aragorn, the war is still not over.
With Minas Tirith in ruins his forces will still have to defeat the rest of Gondor and the Swan knights, who will rally around their local leader.
Saruman having defeated Rohan, would be another battle Saruman would have to fight.
Orthanc would be rebuilt afterwards to guard passage to the West and fanghorn burnt to the ground.
With the South and West secure, eyes would turn towards Galadriel.
If you want a basis for a psychological map of Sauron, you can't do much better than exploring his time as a Maia of Aule. There are some subtextual hints that Aule's relationship with the life-goddess Yavanna led to jealousy among Maia who regarded Aule's inorganic / metallic works more worthy. Also the direct statements of how much Aule's work and Melkor's work overlapped in the earliest ages. Sauron may have adopted Melkor as a surrogate father, feeling abandoned by Aule when he started working with Yavanna. Whatever Sauron wanted to do with unfettered power, it would probably have involved metal.
I'd like to preface the following wall of text by saying that I do get the point of this video. I clicked it, after all, and I quite enjoyed this take on it.
I think the real, albeit boring answer, is that Sauron *couldn't* have won. The fact that the Valar didn't intervene and only sent the Istari in the form of Gandalf, Saruman, and others, ties in well with the idea that Tolkien didn't write the story to show how good triumphed over evil. As evidence for that, remember that the Valar barely even intervened against Morgoth, who was undoubtedly a much bigger threat than Sauron, and even then they only intervened after being begged to do so. Tolkien seems to have written LotR as a way of showing us that evil loses because of *what evil is*, not because of the actions of the good that fight them. Remember, Frodo doesn't actually toss the ring into Mount Doom. He *fails*, and Sauron loses anyway. That's important.
To that end, the idea that Sauron *could* have won is sort of missing the point of the story, in the sense that one of the core ideas in Tolkien's writing is that evil is very often the architect of its own undoing. Sauron lost not because he wasn't *technically* capable of it, but because he was vain, and arrogant, and prideful, and underestimated not only the Shire-folk in Frodo and Samwise but also the rest of the Fellowship, and the free peoples as a whole. He lost because he literally couldn't conceive of their motivations, nor the measures they would take in order to ensure victory. He thought Aragorn was challenging him because he was arrogant, and corrupted by the Ring, and so on. Aragorn played into this perfectly, because Sauron literally couldn't conceive of a Man willingly taking on a suicide mission.
That is to say, Tolkien's whole point in writing the story we eventually got -- if there was in fact a point beyond just telling a story worth telling -- is to show that evil ultimately always loses not because it isn't capable of doing so in a literal, objective sense, but because the very strategies and worldviews that lead a creature to be evil in the first place are the very qualities that prevent them from securing anything resembling a meaningful victory.
It's fitting, then, that LotR ends not with Sauron being defeated upon the field of battle, but by Gollum and Frodo engaging in what amounts to a game of cosmic wrestling for a ring neither of them could destroy on their own. Sauron never feared that the ring would be destroyed because he literally could not conceive of any mortal creature being able to willfully destroy it. He reasoned that, faced with the possibility of that level of power, nobody would ever destroy it.
He didn't lose because he *had* to lose in a fate sense, he lost because the very qualities that made him such a threat to Middle-Earth in the first place are the very qualities that prevent him from winning when it really matters.
Perfectly said.
That being said, I do also feel that Tolkien may have had a logical answer for why Sauron's terms were, by the standards of an evil and authoritarian monster, so generous relative to his previous actions. In lockstep with your assessment of Tolkien's depiction of true evil as being naturally vain and short-sighted, one can't help but see a sense of desperation being conveyed by Sauron through his terms.
As you said Aragorn's attack would've proven suicidal, but it nonetheless likely both caught Sauron off guard and had the potential to do significant damage to his remaining forces - which were still reeling from the near-total destruction of the armies at Minas Tirth and Dale. It seemed to occur to Sauron that he would need time to hunker down and rebuild, at least for a short while, before he could go on the offensive again. Tolkien knew his history, and history is rife with examples of conquerors that, having found themselves with less success than they anticipated, prove willing to sue for peace so they may rebuild and try again. Likewise, Sauron's use of his remaining might to leverage a disarmament out of the Men of the West is definitely designed to prevent his enemies from regaining their own strength.
Just my interpretation.
The only way evil can truly triumph in that sense is to remake the world itself - and not just the world, but Heaven too.
In short, evil would have to oust God, and condemn Him to Hell. That's what makes the Great Old Ones of Lovecraft fame so horrifying: the strongest ones could do just that without even trying - at least in Lovecraft's most pessimistic works.
are you are aware of the idea of grimdark? people enjoy the idea of sauron winning because of the dark world you can explore. just because people are missing the point of the moral message of tolkien doesn't make the idea any less tantalizing.
look at warhammer fantasy. literally a world with chaotic being slowly encroaching at both ends, with the "order" races all at eachothers throats half the time. ask a wood elf in warhammer how hospitable elves can be. yet people love warhammer, because it sort of throws away some of the foundations of tolkien's world and says: "heres a world where everyone is well past their prime with evils both chaos and necromancer invading you frequently: have fun"
a dark, hopeless world can be really fun to imagine because it gives a sense of "nothing matters so may as well try my best", while also giving the viewer a sense that their lives aren't so bad compared to how it could be in some cases.
sauron would be a great guy to get a drink with.
How about a version from Sauron’s point of view, like how the book “Wicked” told the Oz story from the witches side. Sauron is just trying to get his lost property back and everybody is coming after him for doing that. And a Broadway musical version would be hilarious.
He would problably enter in suspended animation after he vanquished ALL his enemys, like xenomorph ore supremacists would.
It's 10:30pm and the sun is truly set. You should have started the video off with that sunny wish. 😔
He actually did rule for several years in Middle Earth during the second age, he taxed, was a dictator of course, but left people to their own devices, and focused on his research.
I saw a theory once that said if Sauron won, Valinor would respond and send their host to middle earth again, with Tulkas, Aulë and Ëonwë leading the charge, breaking Sauron’s ring and sending him into the timeless void where Morgoth was sent.
Great video, thanks for sharing it!
Tolkien's abandoned story 'Tal-Elmar' (published in The History of Middle-earth XII: The Peoples of Middle-earth) gives a fraction of an insight into what Middle-earth was like under Sauron's rule in the Second Age, at least for some of the 'Wild Men' living within his dominion - the Folk of Agar. It's not exactly a wonderful time, although the picture is complex. On the one hand, the protagonist, Tal-Elmar regards his situation being "born and bred in a decaying half-savage people". He seems to have some Edainic ancestry and takes a particularly dim view of his current circumstances. Even so, Sauron, pupil of Aulë and lover of order etc doesn't appear to have imparted much in the way of learning or technology. The Folk of Agar live in fear of the Dark and live what reads like a marginal existence. There are fields and farming but starvation is mentioned as a possibility, as well as the depredations of other Wild Men.
On the other hand, the town of the Agar, as precarious as it is, is ruled by a 'town-master'. And while Master Mogru comes across as odious, he's not some warlord ruling through violence. The town has a Moot-hill, to which the male population can be summoned when decisions need to be made. This arrangement feels more akin to the situation in Lake-town, with its Master, or perhaps the Folkmoot of Brethil, than say the way the Easterlings organised themselves in occupied Hithlum. In other words, within the borders of a vast tyranny, some of those lorded over by Sauron managed a form of self-rule with a hint of, if not democracy, then at least some form of basic participative government.
it was said that during the last alliance members from almost any race fought on both sides. So I can see some dwarf clans accepting sauron after he won
Minion: "So what are you going to do when you destroy the world?"
Sauron: "Oh, I don't know... stand around a gloat a little?"
Morgoth wanted to destroy the world, or at least everything in it that isn't made by him, while Sauron wanted to rule and dominate the world.
@@KaiHung-wv3ul but there would have been at least a little gloating 😛
@@andruism7 Oh certainly.
I have yet to watch the rest of the video but Sauron is a creature who would want total control, to have complete control on what happens. It wouldn't be unheard of that once he got the humans and/or dwarfs fully under his control he would just murder all of the orcs and trolls. They kill each other all the time and say once they win they plan on leaving Sauron's control and make their own independent raiding parties. Not all of them, but a decent amount of them.
Good analysis. I think that on a personal level Sauron would take great pleasure in tormenting and enslaving any of his former enemies that fell into his hands. Galadriel would be in a lot of trouble, Elrond and Arwen too unless they could make it to the Havens before they fell.
Politically, the Elves would probably be exterminated, the Dwarves driven deep underground, the Hobbits enslaved to feed the armies. With that all done and Sauron having the continent in his grasp, he might then look beyond to other lands - the Dark Land of the South, the Empty Lands where Aman once was, the Lands of the Sun to the East. But under no circumstances would he even attempt to assault Valinor; the Lords of the West were always rather isolationist and might accept his victory elsewhere, but if he annoyed them then he would swiftly be reminded of the difference between a Maia and a Vala.
Would the Valar intervene? Gandalf didn't seem to expect them to. At best they might perhaps at some point have sent an expeditionary force under Eonwe, but there's no indication of that, and it's quite possible that the Valar would have been content to let time play out until the end of days.
The question is if sauron could forge someting More powerfull than the ring if he had entire middle earth under his control. I think it is interessting to think about that
Destroying the ring did not return the power he put into it and he did not have control over the world itself like Morgoth did so where would he draw this new power from? He himself had none left to spend on something else after he created the ring.
@@Sleepy.Time. good point but i meant in a scenario where he would have gotten the Ring and conquerd middle earth with it if he than may be able tho forge something more powerfull with the rings power
@@Balthasar_Gelt Morgoth is really the only example we have of a dark lord with a long rule and he seemed pretty spent by the time of his capture. The ring's destruction equaling Sauron's own destruction would make me believe he had nothing left to invest into a second even greater creation of its type.
@@Sleepy.Time. Yeah but im assuming the ring wasnt destroyed and he tool control of all of middle earth. He could forge even mightier artefakts with the one ring. Maybe maybe not
@@Sleepy.Time. he had much less power but NOT "none"
Remember Sauron was by far the most powerful being in Middle-Earth (no one else even came close), indeed the only way anyone could rival him in power would be if the had The One Ring (remember Gandalf with the Ring = Sauron without the Ring).
Great video. In my opinion, I think Sauron would go out to destroy both Rivendell and Lorien as he saw them as threats. The realms of men he would enslave and add new leadership such as Black Numeroneans to rule Gondor and Rohan to make them serve and worship him and do his bidding. Isengard I believe would go to the Mouth of Sauron to control the area. Durins Folk and the Elves of Mirkwood would put up a fight in the north, but they would eventually perish or escape further north where Sauron influence is scarce. I think he would make all these kingdoms worship him but he would rule them through his 'selected' leaders as to not be too out in the open, to not catch the attention of the Valar or Iluvatar. After everything is under his command and control he would further focus on the East and South of Middle-Earth, and he would use his Puppet Kings to conquer the rest. With the ages there would be revolutions and heroes but none would be able to stop the God-King until Dagor Dagorath where Sauron would welcome his Master and fight with all his might and eventually lose to the Mighty Host of the Valar and all of Saurons ancient enemies.
We would never know the difference because history is written by those who have hanged hero’s.
I could totally see Sauron having a few hobbits as court jesters, not for comical reasons but just to frequently show them the ring as a reminder of their faulure.
Thank you so much for the video! Wild next video idea: After Sauron's defeat, What if Aragorn declares war to Rohan>? Could Gondor reconquer Calenardhon?
Why would they though? A perpetual ally who provide some of the best cavalry in Middle-earth, an area in which your massive kingdom massively benefits from that ally.
@@MrTreefoz Once you run out of enemies, you may find yourself creating new ones
@Gwaihir the Windlord I was being sarcastic mostly. However don't rule out the possibility that future heirs of Eldarion will fuck it up eventually, being forgetful of history and the sacredness of their oath of friendship
@@Crafty_Spirit How far into the future are we talking then? Because if Arnor is sufficiently repopulated before this hypothetical war, then Rohan could be invaded from both sides.
At the same time, if Arnor is sufficiently repopulated, the Reunited Kingdom could also become disunited again, as Arnor and Gondor have inherently different interests.
@@MrTreefoz If they keep a single monarch but divisions arise, and if the king is a demagogue, maybe he'll declare that Rohan is to become a province of the Reunited Kingdom so that Arnor and Gondor are no longer separated by a land border. It could work like the reunification of Italy, which was opposed by the Papal state that was set between the Northern alliance and the southern kingdom of Naples.
This video really stimulated dark thoughts on the human nature 🤣🤣
I have a suggestion if possible. Would Sauron have tried to free Morgoth from the Doors of Night if given the chance?
He would not be in any rush to do so, i tell you that
@@mimovres9300 true
At this point I think he would have viewed Morgoth as more of a potential rival than an ally. There’s only room for one dark lord in middle earth after all.
@Definitely not a bear By the Third Age, he believed he was Morgoth reborn.
It's sort of questionable where The Door of Night is since the world is now round and doesn't have a west-most edge anymore, and the sun no longer needs an entrance point into the world. It presumably still exists somewhere since Melkor is apparently coming back through it, but if it's in Valinor Sauron can't get to it.
Even if he could, does he have the power to alter it or to break it? I don't think so.
Sauron: talion want a third game talion: yes master
Coming probably late 2024-early 2025
What if Shelob ate Frodo before Sam saved him? Would the Ring, being inside her now, affect her in some way the same if she wore it on her leg?
Probably not. Shelob is intelligent, but she's also incredibly simplistic in the sense that all she wants to do is eat. She wouldn't care for the One Ring, and probably wouldn't know what it is. I doubt it would affect her.
Middle-earth mysterys video idea: why sauron's forces didn't attacked the iron hills during the war of the ring?
Middle-Earth would look like every other realm of his
Tbh Sauron was so order oriented he’d probably just turn middle earth into our modern world with all of the bureaucracy and red tape and rules and industrialization
That's certainly optimistic.
@@DarthGandalfYTthat wouldn’t be beneficial tbh. If Sauron got the ring, I envision him ruling Middle-Earth like how he subtly ruled Numenor through Ar-Pharazon in the Second Age. All would worship Sauron as a God-King and worship Morgoth, his master, or be sacrificed on his cruel altars.
It’s partly cloudy but still plenty enough sun
It’s always sunny at the Barradur.
Is this Mauler's channel. That damn voice is distinct.
My guess is, Sauron would play god until Morgoth and Eru Illuvatar show up and tear him a new asshole to breathe out of.
I would love for someone to write a story set in a Middle Earth generations after a Sauron victory. Sauron is worshipped widely as a God King, with the societies of men revolving around this fact in their education and traditions, rapid mechanization has catapulted the tech level into a proto-industrial revolution, the countryside polluted, sprawling workshops and quarries, like a nightmarish Victorian England.
The conflict could revolve around a wide sweeping guerilla resistance that inevitably springs up against such terrible conditions. Perhaps the mountain halls of the Dwarves in particular become like a Vietnam War equivalent for Sauron as he tries and fails to besiege their fortresses for years.
Sounds like the future in _Samurai Jack_
Twelve O nine am and that was fascinating and also made me feel awful. I’m going to watch some Teddy Ruxpin to recalibrate before bed.
Sounds like Beleriand just before the Valar decided the only way to be sure was to nuke the entire site from orbit.
Had he won? I don't know, sat back had a latte and danish or something?
As quoted by another "Dark Lord"; "I have altered the deal, pray i do not alter it further"...
If Sauron won it would be temporary (relatively) I think. Eventually Illuvitar or the Valar would have to intervene and destroy or banish Sauron.
I appreciate the video but war time Sauron and peace time
Sauron would most likely be very different
He would write and Direct Amazons Rings of power
He wouldn’t have much cared for the costume design
good video is it ok if I ask you a question?
A very interesting video!
Middle earth under Sauron rule would be like Stalin USSR.
An evil empire based on order,fear,terror,human slavery and war industry.
But as we know from our history all those who took power sooner or later there would be someone from Sauron lietenents try to overthrow him but it woud be a big failure.
I mean it reads like the U.S.A or Germany to me, their was nothing wrong with the U.S.S.R
@@AbstractTraitorHero USSR was a very evil empire,worse than Nazy Germany and USA.
They brought communism in every country that they occupied and they installed in that countries terror and crime in the name of equal society.
@@AbstractTraitorHero "their was nothing wrong with the U.S.S.R" You're kidding, right?
@@Void-ez2it Exaggerating due to wisdom tooth pain, but the USSR while flawed was a good and democratic society. It was in no way an evil empire & to believe otherwise is to be uneducated.
Even the Cia agreed that the Soviets were a democracy in internal documents and a Soviet is a form of democratic workers council.
YWNBAW
To be honest, I think it'd be a matter of brinkmanship, not with the Valar but with High King Finarfin. At some point the thought would have to cross a rational political mind if invading Lindon would be the final straw which triggered a Second War of Wrath, just as the fall of Gondolin set in motion the events which triggered the first. Never drive your enemies into a corner and all that, and Lindon would likely be the last free land in the west, minus Dwarves under siege in their mansions. Of course as mentioned, Sauron might not be rational, and that might be for the best.
As soon as Sauron won “hey I won…why do I hear Tulkas laughing….”
Long story short, it seems like Sauron would create an Age of Men / Age of Order.
More like an Age of Oppression. A totalitarian state where naturally chaotic beings are forced into an unnaturally ordered society where everyone is a glorified cog
Here’s my thoughts. Sauron would turn Minas Tirith, along with Osgiliath into piles or rubble or make them like Minas Morgul. Secondly he’d torch Lothlorian and corrupt it like he did to the great forest. Then corrupt the hall of Thranduil, maybe destroy Erabor. Then completely wipe Rivendell off the map. Then destroy Lindon so badly it probably shares the fate of Beleriand (to finish Morgoth’s work). After that prepare for the Nier Nieth Ar Noiniead while ruling ad a god king.
How's that any different than the world we are in today?
He would have made house party 2 look like house party 3! Way to screw it up fellowship 😢
Tolkein said if Morgoth won, he would get more and more saltier and begin to destroy everything including his own creation. Can't imagine he would be happy with Sauron's accomplishment when he broke free.
I would assume a decade after Saurons complete domination of Middle Earth, the Valar would eventually feel forced to intervene like they did when Morgoth pretty much had Middle Earth in his grasp
so perhaps the one misstep in LoTR is that terms at the Black Gate should have included the return of the trifle, the least of rings - and great gifts shall be given
Sauron did have a bit of a grudge against Laketown and Dale as the Necromancer due to allying with the dwarves of the Iron Hills and Erebor in the battle of five armies. He also hates the Woodland Elves under Thranduil and Legolas in the same matter
Saruman was immortal, too, for the same reason. A well-placed dagger did the trick, though.