How does Kythera works ? + Dwell/air volume adjustment
Вставка
- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- Hello fellow airsofters.
I have cracked down how does the kythera operates and how to change the dwell/air usage of the engine as par of my quest to solve the PSI lag issue with the engine on fast semi.
I hope it will help anyone who would need the info.
Dump chamber spacers can be found at
cults3d.com/en... courtesy of Colin Gark. I have printed them from ABS and after 3k+ shots they show no signs of wear.
2.5mm one did not fit over the spool (for older kytheras where the spool is "circle" it might fit)
Hi Tatko!
You seem like the most knowledgeable person on YT regarding the Kythera, can I bother you with a few questions about it?
Would you say the Kythera is more consistent in J output compared to a high end AEG gearbox? I read a lot of claims online and some of my friends swear by HPA systems in general for this reason, but because they literally call themselves "HPA fanatics" I assume there is some bias in their judgement ;)
Follow-up question: The airsoft fields where I play often have vastly different rules regarding max allowed bb weight and fps, so HPA is appealing to me because it allows me to adjust fps on the go easier than any spring change system. The idea is to build a DMR-type rifle around the Kythera intending to shoot bbs ranging from 0.3g up to 0.45g with a relatively long barrel (about 460mm), I imagine it is necessary to adjust dwell to accommodate for the change in bb weight (which is the main reason I searched for your video), is this true? If yes, would this dwell adjustment be easier on an electric HPA system?
Last question: I'm intending to use a UGS stock so the limiting factor for me will be the small air volume in the 0.2l tanks. Would you say the Kythera is more or less efficient compared to electric HPA systems, or is there no big difference?
And is there a noticeable decline in FPS as the pressure in the main tank drops while shooting?
Sorry to barrage you with all these questions at once, but so far I haven't found any solid answers to any of these online.
Hi there. No problem, will try to tackle the all.
1) is HPA better then AEG in the J output consistency ?
Finely tuned AEG can be as good as HPA. On both I have had variance of +-1 fps. The main difference thou is that with HPA, it is a lot less hustle. Then only real "problem" with HPA is the alignment of the nozzle and barrel. AEG has it too, but a lot more problems to solve :) : Nozzle spring strength, Speed of the Gears, shimming, lubing etc ....
2) Kythera vs Solenoid engines (F2 for example)
As I own both Kythera and F2 (only 1 game so far) I can tell you that F2 is far more superior in the "tunning" department. Having the FCU to adjust the timings is a god send, compared to the options which you have available with Kythera. The main selling point of the Kythera is the lower price, absence of the battery and the trigger. The main disadvantage is that the Kythera cannot handle fast semi (4+ RPS) without power drop (you can expect up to -0.15J on fast semi due to the engine design ....) On the other hand F2 has better tuneability, doesn't Drop Power on fast semi/full auto (I have tried 25 RPS and the power did not drop with Mancraft MMR regulator) .... So from my perspective Kythera has its community, but performance wise F2 is in a different league. I am not saying you cannot play with it, but if you need to have everything "perfect" (power not dropping, ideal Air volume ration ....), go for F2. When polarstar would come up with Kythera like trigger mechanism and F'2 solenoid operation in one package, it would be the perfect engine :D .... fr your setup (460mm| barrel I would not be changing anything in the Air volume department. The only "tunable" thing would be metering screw to control your nozzle loading speed, if you have feeding/hop problems.
3) With kythera, I get about 3000 shots from 0.8/3000 PSI tank .. With F2 from the same tank I got about 4500 bbs. So from 0.2L/3000 you can expect about 700 from kythera and 1200 from F2 ..... 4500 PSi one should get you to ~1100 on kythera and 1800 on F2.
@@tatkoairsoft2146 Thank you, that was very informative!
This makes the choice a little harder though, but that's the beauty of it ;)
Cheers!
I have my in a v3 gearbox in an lct started out great then slowly over time with no heavy use would discharge without shoot and i would have to manually charge it. And now it wheezes and wont charge the system eventually it will charge and shoot but it's spotty at times. And local airsoft techs seem to have no clue and say that it's fixed when it isn't.
I have one as of two weeks ago and it already leaks out the nozzle and all I did was install it in a gearbox.
Regrease the orings .... shouldn't be hard to do
So, just a small question.
Does the Kythera then handle 4 RPS just fine or should I try to stay at around 2-3 RPS? My "natural" triggering rythm is around around 4 RPS, do you think the Kythera will keep up?
Also would a shorter barrel help? Since a shorter barrel won't need as much air as a long one or am I misunderstanding the dump chamber design?
Otherwise, excellent video!
Kythera is fixed Air system, so barrel has no effect on how much air is released. Hard to say about 4 rps ..... but It should be minimal Fps loss if any. in CQB not noticable. In "DMR" play maybe, but you never know unless you field it.
@@tatkoairsoft2146 Thank you very much!
Any chance you can explain more about the Dump Chamber Spacers in you video description? Do these help with the slower chamber refresh rate?
Unfortunately there is minimal difference in the actual refresh rate. You will see decrease in air usage, since the Volume of the dump chamber will be reduced, but also the velocity will go down a little. Which means you will need to up about 10 psi to get the same velocity. So I can hardly tell what would be the overall "advantage". with 48ci/3000 PSI tank I can get about 3000 shots at 1.5J and about 110PSI on the reg with the spacers. (my f2 gets double that, at 6000 shots per tank) The slow refresh rate is connected to the way how the air flows the engine and also nozzle "increasing" the overall volume when it returns to the front position. I have tinkered with it quite a lot, but Could not eliminate the refresh rate lag. Which means over 3 RPS, the velocity will drop. At 8 RPS I am getting about -0.15J. From my experience there is nothing you can do, just make peace with it :D ... So if you you need the "perfect" consistency, just go for the Solenoid engines, as Kythera will not satisfy you. But if you really like the trigger, just make sure you do not spam the trigger that much. in CQB the drop in power is not a factor, but in Woodland games it can lead to increased groupings.
Uhm Tatko may you please summarize how it works (I think it will help me understand the video)
hi there we are having problems with a huge inconsistency in the acuracy of the shoots, it looks very randon and there is not a fps inconsistency help please
@@silviosilveri1351 kythera has preassure actuated nozzle. Your bucking lips doesnt provide enough tension and bb stops everytime at a diffefent place under bucking nub. Tighten up the bucking lipa via PTFe tape or get Silent industries Hop up chamber which has tension rings that over bucking lips to tighten them down.
Hi tatko
i have a question.
Whats the diffrent about the hard and soft Spring from the kythera
The difference is in the amount of air released at higher psi (120+). The harder spring enables the valve on the nozzle to be exposed for longer, thus more air is released from dump chamber. In practice, if you have lets say 1.8J at 140 psi on soft spring, switching to heavy spring will bring that up. I cannot tell you how much. In P* video they gained 0.5J going from soft to heavy at 180 psi.
Quick random question just bought a blemished kythera and every time I connect air it leaks ever so slightly but stops when I lightly press the sear before it goes off any tips brand new to HPA
I would suggeat checking, cleaning and relubing the orings with Techt gunsav. There are 4 orings on the spool, two o the kythera body and two in the nozzle if i remeber correctly.
Would adding a spacer help fix air volume issues with shorter barrels? Im running a 260mm barrel and im getting crazy fps inconsistencies
Nope as that has nothing to do with inconsistency. On 247mm barrel I was getting +- 1 FPS variance on slow semi (1 rps) with spacers and also without. Of course, going 3+RPS would always have drop of +- 0.15J no matter what, as the design of kythera cannot keep up with the 3+ RPS. If you have big FPS variance on slow semi(1 rps) the problem would lie somewhere else
@@tatkoairsoft2146 thanks for the insight. perhaps my issues are with the cgs co2 stock regulator I'm running
@@petercarlson3271 make sure the engine cannot move inside the GB and that the axis of nozzle and barrel is as centered as possible. Those two are the most common "causes" for fps inconsistecies.
Is it possible to reach 8joules with kythera?
I do not think so. I think that 4J is the area which you can reach on 0.48g+ bbs max PSI (180) with appropiate long barrel
Do we have any data on the air volume a kythera pushes into the barrel when it is in its standard configuration?
Sorry, no idea. It is difficult as the PSI of the air will gradualy drop, as the air feed is cut off until the nozzle is reseted. It is one big magic :D if you care much about voluming, just switch to F2. You wil save yourself lot of time :)
I've a kythera too, when my PSI are at 120PSI, the first shot work at 120PSI, then the others are between 80-100PSI... Around 110 to 130 PSI is the minimum that I've to put into the kythera and I don't like that, because i'm around 370FPS at 120PSI and around 320FPS after several shots :/
When you say you need 120 psi and others are at 80, are they using Kythera too ? You cannot compare Solenoid engines and Kythera, as they operate on different principle. Kythera needs aprox 30-40 more psi then Solenoid engines to reach the same energy (f.e. on 290mm 6.02 barrel I need 110 PSI on my F2 and 150 PSI on Kythera to reach 2J). If they have Kythera and the same length of the barrel as you, you have a leak in the system somewhere. Regarding PSI lag, it is normal for the engine to "lag" if shot more then 3 RPS ... it can display as needle on the manometer jumping 10-15 psi back and returning after split second (0.2-0.3 sec) to the set pressure. Nothing you can do about it ... it is "natural" flaw of the engine :)
No I'm sorry my english is not good enought :/ I wanted to say that my kythera is at 120PSI at the beggining and when i shoot several bb's it decrease to 100-80 PSI :) But as you say is the natural flaw so I don't have to worry about it !@@tatkoairsoft2146
@@GregoirEAzer No problem ;) . Here is a quick vid of "normal" refresh rate with kythera ua-cam.com/users/shortssExVnWti7OE?feature=share . You can see that with rapid fire it floats at 80 psi, while with slow fire it is 100 psi. If yours drops more then 20 psi (or power is decreased more then 0.15J compared to slow semi) maybe your reg needs a clean :)
Thx, how can I clean my reg ? I know that i can separate it in two pieces, maybe i should try ?
@@tatkoairsoft2146
I could not focus at all with that banger playing in the background.
what if I want the opposite.. I want to increase my joules.. how do I do that?
You need to switch the stock spool spring with the heavier one and run high PSI up to 180. Second thing to help you attain more J is heavier bbs (0.4g+) and longer barrels. With HPA, J output increases quite a lot with heavier BB and longer barrels.
thank you for your very honest reply sir.. more power to your channel.. also I will follow you because you reply fast and you have good content
what nozzle do i need for the mk12 mod 1double bell
Sorry mate, no idea :)
Hello, first of all, sorry for the language, I don't speak English well.
my kythera has a problem that launches two BBs when firing
I did a thousand tests and I can't solve it
I have recorded a video in slow motion and it is seen that the nozzle bounces when activated
Any idea how to solve the problem? I don't know many people who know so much about this system.
thanks a lot
ua-cam.com/video/I8Ob6kuhAug/v-deo.html
@@15chango15 hmm, seems like something is wrong with the sear and it "double releases" causing double fire. I would advice you to clean the engine (spool, dumb chamber, nozzle), regrease the orings and remove the adjustment screw from the top of the sear. Reassemble and set it up again. Make sure the silver "cover" which slides over spool has notches facing towards front. (Should be firing fine without top screw. Install it if you want "shorter" trigger pull)
@@tatkoairsoft2146 If all that is as you say, but keep doing the same thing, any more idea? It's crazy
@@15chango15 then i would try to return and get a new unit.
@@tatkoairsoft2146 impossible is no longer under warranty, before it threw correctly :(