Effective Modern Layouts w/ Mo Pinel - Volume 1
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- It's #MoMonday!
In this segment, Mo Pinel discusses effective modern layouts for different style of players. Using the Squatch and the Katana Legend, we'll show both symmetrical core and asymmetrical core options.
PRODUCT LINKS AND INFO:
Katana Legend - radicalbowling....
Squatch - radicalbowling....
I just reglued some finger grips on a ball I got at Goodwill. I used a small stainless steel dog bowl to hold the ball.
I buy 3" or 4" PVC pipe and cut off a 1" piece to make a ball cup. You can thank me later.
Mo is really such a gem of bowling knowledge it's a shame his family have lost him.
omg I didnt know it...He was a friend of mine back in the early 80's. I worked for Carter's Lane Service and he was quite involved with Mo, thus meeting him and having some great times. I even went to bowling lanes during the night with them to help with the refinishing of the lanes. Wow.....that's too bad...I will have to check out his obit then.
I'm confused. The earliest response to the lane is finger holes next to the pin? What drilling is the latest reaction towards the pin? And what drilling is the most violent on an Asymmetrical bowling ball 😏
rip mo
I have a symmetrical ball drilled with pin location in center of palm? Why is it so much different than examples given here? Did the shop where I had my ball drilled get it completely wrong?
Did you determine your PAP prior to them drilling the ball? What you describe would only make sense for a ball with a simple pancake core.
i have a pin down layout and my track is near my fingers and thumb
I get a hard turn just before my ball gets to the pins and no matter how close I put it to the gutter I still end up hitting the head pin heavy or on the Brooklyn side. I observe other bowlers that can release the ball straight down the alley between the second and third arrows and the ball slides all the way until just before it gets to the pins. Does where you drill the holes have anything to do with this. I want a little less hook with more control.
Plantation Storage What ball are you throwing?
In a nutshell.... yes, the ball layout along with the ball surface is what determines how quickly the ball transition and how early or late the ball reads the pattern.
Sounds like you have a relatively low surface ball (2000 or below) combined with a very high response layout (when it sees friction, it wants to scream left, or right if your a lefty).
First thing I would do is have your ball surface adjusted a bit higher, especially if your bowling on standard house shots... something around 3 or even 4000 grit.
You are probably throwing way to slow and/or getting it to the dry too early
A little Late to the party, but anything for us Full Rollers?
Better to ask any one of the pro shop owners on that
So whats the first number mean on say a layout of 70x4.5x35
Here you go
www.bowlersreference.com/Ball/Layout/Dual.htm
No idea what any of these acronyms means. Any acronyms education video?? Also, what about no thumb bowlers?
VAL-Vertical Axis Line, the vertical line parallel to your grip along your PAP-positive axis point, point where your ball spins around when you throw it. PSA-Preferred Spinning Axis, if the ball rolled forever, it would eventually spin around this point (or if you use a determinator). Hope that helps!
Mr. Pinel i'm going to purchase the Katana Legend, my question is to get Max Flare using your layout 65x4x30 will the ball still achieve Max Flare without balance hole?
I have all my balls drilled this and they crush the pins you shouldn't have a problem
*Easily the best video on this topic on UA-cam today.*
RIP MO…….. You were truly a blessing to pro shop owners and to the sport of bowling. Without a doubt you are truly going to be missed, BUT your innovations and contributions will always live on. Pete.
I wish he layout all my balls I swear my local pro shops don't have a clue when I ask all these questions 😤 I spend all kind of money on bowling balls and have yet been asked by a pro shop what is my pap
Can i drill my thumb hole off the center line? I feel like that would be much more comfortable for me
Hey Mo... You're awesome buddy. No one else understands the physics of bowling like you do. I have learned so much from you. Thank you, sir.
I live in Northern Indiana just a few hours from Muskegon. Could I come up there to purchase my Radical Conspiracy and have the honor of getting my layout from you?
Anxiously awaiting Part two of this video. The information on high track players has shed a brighter light on how I should go about manipulating my ball reactions. Thank you for such a through explanation.
There are so many Bowling balls, I tried just about all of them.
@javierhdez3962 you got any you want to donate. 😁
How do you know what angle to draw your initial line from pin to pap when laying out this ball without the grip location established yet
In regards to PAP, wouldn't that change depending on the drilling patern and/or the ball? For instance, if I rolled an older plastic ball of mine with a "finger Tip" pattern to show my track to the Pro Shop, would my PAP be diffeent than if I used reactive ball with a strong weight block? I'm not finding the drill pattern/ball reaction I'm hoping for and I'm curious as if it is a result in the drillers all using a PAP that might not be correct.
Beautiful! Thank you. But...can you show Full Roller layouts next with Symmetric and Asymmetric balls?
this is why Mo is one of the most technical and most respected Minds in the industry of Ball development, there are good ones at All MFG but Mo has been doing this Much longer i believe :)
It's a damn shame Mo passed away. I'd give him $500 to drill a couple balls for me so I could finally get my layouts perfect!
I recently made the switch from a standard right handed (thumb in ball) bowler over to a two handed (no thumb) bowler.
I went to the same Pro Shop guy that drilled my balls for me because the fitment was comfortable but despite knowing I
was transitioning over to a 2H bowler he still didn't care to watch me bowl or adjust my PAP for 2H (no thumb) bowling.
Instead he took all 5 of my balls and plugged the thumb holes and he did relocate the middle and ring finger holes on all
my balls except for my Purple Hammer... but to me it felt like he was doing a little guessing work rather than fine tuning
my layouts for my specific release. Such a damn shame. Now I'm having issues with the balls tracking over the finger
holes. This shouldn't happen right?
Ditto. I wonder who else is just as good. I need help
I legit quit the sport after 25+ years of bowling in leagues because of fact I've NOT been able to find a pro shop that can drill my ball properly. I've had over 25 balls drilled in the last 5 years leading up to me walking away from the sport for good and of those 25 balls I had 5 or 6 different PSO's layout my gear. None of them fit properly.. non stop sores on my thumb, issues with release, some balls have holes that are way too large, some way too small, it's just BAD! When I lived in Sacramento I used to get my gear drilled from the same guy for 15+ years and he got every single ball right! These days PSO's don't seem to give a rats ass about their customers unless you go in and spend thousands of dollars in their shop.. half of them won't even measure your hand or watch you throw a ball to get proper PSA.. it's pathetic.. the sport is dying.. It's so obvious! Just look at how every single bowling center (at least 95% of them) are all older than 30+ years and are falling apart! The 3 centers we have out here NEVER oil the lanes anymore outside of leagues! There are several days of the week where you can go bowl and your ball will legit just dump into the left gutter now matter how much you come up the back of the ball! You literally have to throw plastic house balls if you plan on keeping your ball on the lane because of how dry the conditions are! Ever since the pandemic bowling centers seem to be getting so much worse! @@StephRenee812
I know Mo has passed on, and he gave out so much knowledge. He keeps saying thumb hole is the PSA on a symmetrical ball, but what if you're bowling without a thumb? Thanks MO, rest in peace sir!
God I miss this guy so much. Truly the Albert Einstein of bowling balls so smart . Still to this day ONLY COMPAY TO GIVE DRILL PATTERN LAYOUT SHEET WITH EVERY BALL MADE JUST TO GIVE ARE REFERENCE POINT FOR THEM UP TO YOU TO USE OR TWEEK GREAT GUY RIP Mo🙏🙏🙏🙏❤️❤️❤️❤️
What do you mean by read the pattern the best on a asymmetrical ball does that mean the ball will hook earlier
Very nice video. Would you consider doing one for no thumb layouts as well given how they are becoming more prevalent (especially with the new USBC rules coming up). I love how Mo simplifies all of this.
I second this.
Yes! In the works!
@@RadicalBowling thank you!
Mo, thanks for all your very informative info. Could you talk about layouts for the full rollers. ?
I've been waiting on no-thumb videos
This is a fantastic video. Learned a lot by watching it on how to understand what my ball does and why it does it. Will part 2 involve drilling without thumb holes?
im trying to understand my layout. the pin is just to the left side of my finger holes (im a lefty)
i have a low rev and a high track as far as i can tell..
Does the same player have the same PAP location at different bowling balls ?
What happens if you are a low track player and you ball layout is for a high track player? Woukd the ball do the opposite
Without a doubt the best explanation on laying out a ball yet. If I had a quarter scale ($97.95 Amazon---yeah right) I believe I could now lay out my ball and just bring it to the pro shop for drilling. They have my hole diameters and span but they didn't have my exact PAP. I will have it exactly before I get my next two drilled. Now I will know before I throw them what to expect. Thanks again Mo. I am subscribing right now.
@RadicalBowling
Mo Pinel great video.
Can you do a video on layouts for Lefty Full Roller?
rip to a legend
Great source of information. Is there any chance that a video could be posted of the different motions of Asymmetrical Bowling Balls that were described in this video,
Mo, thank you so much for this! I bought a Pitbull Growl last year after 10 years away from bowling. I used a new person to drill the ball since I lived in a new area. I had a terrible time trying to throw this ball... after watching this video I learned that it wasn't the ball... it's that it was drilled completely wrong for my style! It was drilled like a symmetrical for a low track instead of a high track and that's why the ball didn't read/finish the way I expected it to from the specs. You are doing a great job of educating us so that we don't have to be blind to the Pro drilling the ball!!!
I just got back into bowling and they’re gonna start not allowing weight holes? Smh
Very informative thank you Mo.
Love Mo!! Met him at a ball show in Cincinnati!! Still carrying a 205 avg with the MoRich Total Annihilation and the MoRich Weapon of Mass Bias!!!
what is recommended for a right handed-two hander track being on the right side of the ball and through the finger inserts esp the ring finger?
I'm very much a speed dominant player. My first ever ball was the 3D offset in the late 90's and since then all but one of my balls were asyms. I recently threw a friends symmetrical ball during league practice and loved it. Was a bit of a shock to the system. Had the proshop punch one up 8 weeks ago and raised my average 7 sticks since then.
The Insane Shecklador why do u like the sym ball now ? I want a later hook and assumed the asym better at that but I guess I was wrong I like a hockey stick shape
I have so Radical balls I’ve been saving that I bought when Mo was making shows all around for PSO that wanted to learn. I’m drilling them this week, as one of the layout is called a MAXIMUM FLIP. 70x3-1/2x20 & one pin down 40x 4-1/4 X 70, being a Lefty this will be great. Have the result + ball and the Ludicrous.
Then all my others balls are up date from 2 years to today. Mo was a great man
I was given a undrilled rebel ecx..think it was made by revolution..unable ot find any drill patterns,,can you help ?
Hey Mo... What about a 90 by 4 by 10? I have a 6 inch or 6 1/2 by 1/2 pap. My rev rat is 325-350 rpm and throw the ball around 13-15mph. I actually asked for it on a trident abyss! Might have to get the holes drilled a little deeper to make it legal... My other balls are a seismic photon torpedo (65 by 5 by 35) and a venom recoil (70 by 5 by 30). Not to mention a covert tank with 65 by 4 (3/8 or so) by 28~. So... Good or bad?
Would you be able to do one for no thumb layouts? Thanks
You say in the beginning (1:52) 3 and a half and 4 and a quarter inches but you right a half. In the recap (because your reading what you wrote down) you change the 4 and a quarter into 4 and a half......confusing. Its like it doesnt matter......
Will going in a downward direction with the desired distance (4 inches - for example) from pin to mark pin-to-pap always become a pin up drill layout? If so, will going in an upward direction with the desired distance(4 inches for example) from pin to mark pin-to-pap always become a pin down drill layout?
Hey there 😊 new to drilling and was curious about a question I get asked a lot. I would ask my boss but I know he'll say something like "think about it!!" Where does the psa land on balls with no thumb hole? Has to be around the fingers...maybe in the bridge? Now, say the bowler wants like a pin under bridge on a symmetrical ball...does that mean the psa lands just above the pin??? I need some help here 😭
question. what if You drill a symetrical ball lets say stacked leverage and instead of the weighthole... go from the location where the weighthole normally would go and at the exact opposite neg quandrant from that hole location drill a weighthole there filling it with lead weight equalling the amount removed from posative weighthole location and plug it. will it react the same as if it still had a hole like old?
Was big on Morich balls and now Thinking bout switching to ridical but love to ask mo a question that I've been struggling with cant seem to get hold of him on fb or anywhere did talk to Phil once tho
My favorite asymmetric ball layout since i am a left hander who track next to thumb is the pin down and to left of my ring finger and the mass bias 1/4th of a inch away from the thumb.
I bought the zing and put the locator pin in the thumb hole but I don’t understand the wordioligy about reading the pattern with the locator pin right of the thumb hole!? Which one hooks later? The one with the locator pin in the thumb hole?
I bowl with my index finger and my finger next to that one and my thumb so how would you layout my ball?
The same way we would anyone else. A pro shop can get your PAP, tilt, rev rate and ball speed. From there, they can layout the ball accordingly.
Dat Mo is smart.
How do you add the new difference in side weight and too weight into the layouts. Yes, no more weight holes but we can go up to 3 ounces different, side to side too to bottom...
So does the CG matter on an asymmetric bowling ball?
For symmetrical balls, would it be safe to say that without a thumb hole, the pin location will be moved up compared to a ball having a thumb hole to get a similar reaction?
What kind of symetrical layout would you recommend for a low track player that needs to carry 10 pins more. Ball would be more of a game 3 ball. Thank you!
Can we get one of these videos for us full rollers?????
Yeah. Just flip the label upside down.
On the Asymmetrical ball with putting the MB on the VAL. Would that lead to a smoother and slower down lane reaction?
It's a contributing factor to a quicker response reaction, but Pin to PAP must also be considered here.
- depends on how high above the midline you put the pin - but generally ball would total flare less & have a shorter interim period between it's total Skid Phase & total Roll Phase .. .. ''Slower'' & ''Smoother'' relates more to Differential & Friction characteristics .. [true of symmetrical also ]
Finally the light has come on on understanding of layouts for symmetrical 🙂
GOAT!!! RIP. Best layout video of all time!!
@RadicalBowling Mo I struggle to roll pin under equipment I do not use my thumb how do I go about laying something out?
Since watching this several times, I kind of eye-balled some initial lines and locations and then worked out the dual angles afterwards and it came out exactly like layout "B" of the new suggested Asym drillsheet.
On a symmetrical ball, does the cg still matter if the player does not need a thumb hole?
good question would love to know about this as well
Cg placement makes no difference
@@kylewagner6607 - No difference ??? .. My experience and basic deductive reasoning contradicts that assertion.. How much difference can be debated - but there is a difference & it's a worthwhile exploitable difference .. I've even met bowlers who say they can feel difference off their hand
Mo is AWESOME - cannot go wrong with him!!
How would axis rotation influence layout choice under the new paradigm?
Great Video Mo! Question? At 3:56, How did you determine the angle of the first line that was drawn on the Symmetrical ball. I understand how you measured the distance on the line, after it was drawn, but since you didn't use the CG, did you just pick a place at random or was there another way you determined where it would be placed?
Pastor JT Thornton
Yes I think it was just at random since he said that the PSA (Preferred Spin Axis) on a symmetrical will be the thumb hole.
I'm not sure if I have a high track or medium because when I throw a urethane or plastic ball the track is very high and when I throw a resin ball the track is lower like a medium track. So my pap changes depending on what type of ball I roll. If I want to drill up a resin ball which pap measurement should I use? The one when I roll a resin or urethane/plastic?
Hey Mark, the only track that should matter is the initially one that's created when you lay the ball down. If the grip and release is the same for the plastic and reactive ball I would use the ball that flares the least because it will make it the easiest to get as accurate of a measurement as possible as long as the track lines are still defined.
I have a weird track. I'm a right 2 hander and I track between my thumb and fingers like a full roller but it starts from the left of my middle finger and tracks to the right of my thumb hole. My pso says the best option for me is full roller, but are there any other options?
You're spinning the ball instead of throwing it and letting it come off your hand
I'm a throw the ball straight down the 5 board and crash it into the pocket type of bowler while most other bowlers are stand as far left or right and throw in the opposite direction hoping to curve it.
Me too.
Awesome video thank you for explaining.
Thank you for the very useful information! My question is how does the oil pattern length affect the layout? Assume that you have two identical bowling balls and two oil patterns, one long around 44 ft. and one medium-short around 37 ft.. How would you layout the ball to use on the shorter pattern and how the one to use on the longer? I'm a slightly speed dominant player and my track is mid to lower.
I'm no mo pinnel... but the way this has been explained to me in the past is:
Shorter oil, you want a shorter pin to pap distance so the ball transitions quickly.
Longer oil, you want longer pin to pap distances so the ball transitions slower.
❤️ This!!! Thank you Mo!
Please define how we determine if we are speed or "rev" dominant players? I'm a new bowler but very interested in getting a second ball.
Speed dominate players have a ball speed that out-weighs their rev rate. And rev dominant players have a high rev rate that tends to overpower the ball speed. I believe that's what it means.
Your VAL angle seems to mean nothing on that symmetrical ball, because you drew an arbritary line and PAP to base the VAL angle off of. ..... Why didn't you establish a drill angle (angle between pin / cg - pin to PAP)? From there you establish the VAL angle, right, no?
The cg means nothing on a sym ball as he said. He used pin to pap and degrees from pin to determine the val.
Duh...
今までありがとうございました🙏🙏🙏
This is fascinating.
What is considered speed dominant? I throw about 14 according to the board at my lanes.
Speed dominant means you throw the ball faster than it spins. In other words speed dominant players tend to have a little less reaction in the ball and should close the angles to keep it tight and in the pocket...
Would be nice to see the layouts in action
is this drilling allowed for switch grip?
RIP Mo.🙏
So, in Asymmetrical pin distance to VAL and PAP doesn’t matter?
They matter a great deal, but fine tuning your reaction with a PSA will become even more crucial after August 1st, 2020. You have to get it right the first time since you will not be able to put an extra hole in the ball.
Mo not many people I read up on their work and study up on. You are one of those people for me. So I have a question after these new rules go into effect. Your studies show you can move the psa with a balance hole in a symetric which I agree with. With no more balance holes and plugging moving the psa back towards the thumb but only by about half or so. Whose to say we cant drill the balance hole and plug it for the customer to get a little more out of a symetric?
The PSA moved back approximately 90% in a symmetrical ball when the balance hole was plugged. The difference in reaction was nominal and not worth voiding the manufacturer warranty by plugging a weight hole.
Tyler Stine you could probably drill the balance hole then only fill the top maby put some foam in the hole but that’ll only work for a little while cuz after a few years they’ll know u shouldn’t have a plugged ball anymore I think in 2 yrs only asymmetrical will b made
It’s so stupid USBC rules that balance holes are illegal. Being a bowler that bowls 2 handed and 1 handed, I have to now have multiple balls of the same layout. It’s stupid. If the pattern starts getting too dry while bowling 2 handed, I switch to bowling 1 handed, it’s so much easier. I bowl and adapt to anything and everything.
So put in a very large IT when you throw it 2 handed so your thumb just swims in the hole and change it to one that fits your thumb when you need to go 1 handed.
Patrick Clark my thumb hole is drilled for my thumb. The USBC rules state that if you bowl 2 handed then you can’t have a thumb hole. That’s what everyone says but according to what I read it can either be a thumb hole OR a balance hole. You can’t have both. I must be reading it wrong then. Because that’s my understanding that I can’t hav any other hole besides my 2 finger holes. And I’ve never had a balance hole in any of my equipment. Out of the 13 years I’ve been bowling, not once.
@@Lucky_Logan I know many 2 handed bowlers that use their thumb, themes just don't use it to as the primary means to hold onto the ball like you do when bowling 1 handed. If you have a large IT that your thing will basically fall out of and you have your thumb in the hole when bowling 2 handed you are using the hole. When you need to change to a 1 handed release then change the IT to fit your thumb. This will eliminate the need for duplicate equipment. Every hole in a ball must have either a finger or thumb in it, no more unused holes. No more weight/balance holes.
Can you explain what you mean when you say, “harder to throw through the break point”. I am a no thumb bowler with a high track.
Harder to throw through the break point means that the ball will dig in and rev up without over skidding down the lane.
So this would be a good thing, right? Thank you for the great videos and tons of information you offer.
Great Video
Thanks Mo!
So what style is slow speed and lot of revs
déjá bowler cranker
So what happened to the dual angle layouts?
CG doesn't matter. Symmetrical balls do not have a PSA so Mo skips the step of drill angle on the symmetrical ball.
Where is the PSA with no thumb hole?
On a symmetrical ball, 6-3/4" from the pin through the center of the bridge.
@@RadicalBowling wonderful. Thank you for the reply. Lots of unanswered questions for us no-thumbers
When can we expect to see a video on modern layouts for thumbless bowlers?
PAS, PAP VAL? Would be nice if you explained what these stand for in your video.
He probably just wanted to make this video as short as possible.
PAS stands for "preferred spin axis' it the part of your ball that is the most dense essentially so it will want to align to that axis as it rolls down the lanes.
PAP stands "positive axis point" but is also called just axis point a lot. It's one end of the line that creates the axis that your ball spins around(like how the earth spins around the line between the north and south poles) when you let go of it and changes from bowler to bowler. The positive one is the one to the right of the grips for a right handed and to the left for a lefty.
VAL I'm not sure about the acronym but I would assume it stands for 'Vertical Axis Line' and its essentially just an imaginary vertical line through the PAP.
Hope that helps, but essentially no matter how much you learn about layouts I've found you'll always run into more acronyms you have to look up if you want to keep up with what people are trying to say.
PSA is preferred spin axis.
PAP is positive axis point.
VAL is vertical axis line.
you can get a lot more information here: wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Proshop_Information . There is a wealth of info here. Read, re-read, rinse, repeat...
Mo & Phil, IMO, are the best in the business!
Radical 4 life!
Mo and Phil are THE best combo in any ball organization going today. I think the stuff they put out beats Storm all day!!!
Interesting topic. Bad presentation.
Thanks for a video on layouts. Mo Pinel you doing a superb job with Radical bowling.
I feel if Mo was a teacher I would learn the more in his class, amongst all other subjects. edit* sad to hear he is gone