Honestly, as someone who grew up socialized as girl, this trope always seemed like "if he bullies you he has secretly a crush on you!" repackaged for gay men
Heartstopper also showed Charlie dating two characters in the closet and clearly showed that one was abusive and totally in the wrong, while the other was a great case study of meeting people where they are and self-discovery.
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I don't know what The Take is still waiting for to make an analysis on Heartstopper.
@ Heartstopper is the first show I've ever seen that actually shows a pseudo romanticized version of queer youth(which is really fucking depressing since it's 2022) and for that it's legendary. Maybe they're ust trying to find out what aspect in particular they should cover? I personally think they should do those character series' like they did with The Office where they go into each character extensively Whatever, they do I can't wait for the analysis so I can quote every single scene they use as an example word for word
Yeah and as a bisexual, it was nice to see that they didn't use Ben as a kind of "All bi/mspec people are unfaithful or secretly homophobic because we still got Nick and everyone loves Nick
i hate _hate_ *hate* it when the bully gets together with their victim. like, great that they're growing as a person! just make them stay the hell away from the person they've tormented💀
@@starsareglowing Funny of you assume people would want to be near you. It’s the flow of a literal narrative. I’m not sure why you took it personal. The main idea is the bullying gets put aside by the victim because they saw it was out of a psychological flaw, they see how serious bullying was and see it as an obstacle they over came to be with one another. It’s used in many shows and books. You see if in real life as well.
I really detest this Trope. It basically tells impressionable viewers that your bully is only targeting you because they have a crush on you, and that their previous toxic behaviour will be easily forgiven.
It's just a trope. A character archetype that Hollywood understands and can copy and paste when they need a character that does the things this character type is known for. It's not about "saying" anything or reinforcing stupid unspoken messages. People tend to forget, it's just a movie. A piece of entertainment.
I’m a gay man who was bullied in high school by a guy I ended up being boyfriends with. Here’s the difference….I didn’t get with him right after he kissed me. I hated him even more and shut him down for a whole year until he proved to me he could be a better man. He went around and apologized to those who he bullied, came out to his mom which didn’t go well(he got kicked out and disowned by his family), and seeing him actually trying to become a better person regardless of all the hate he got was what made me fall for him…I’m engaged to him now. TL;DR Not against the bully being closeted gay, but all being forgiven without any consequences is where I draw the line.
Like someone else in the comments mentioned Heartstopper did a great job with this trope (one stereotypical closet bully and another Not) they showed that closeted people ARE NOT always bullies.
@@kittykittybangbang9367 rich people can have it hard too because I'm sure in some rich families they don't allow their kids to be gay or they will take away their inheritance or disown them 😖
I also hate this trope. In general it seems that we are taught as a society that if someone bullies you, they probably have a crush on you, and that's not only harmful to perpetuate, especially within the LGBTQIAP+ community, but can also encourage young people to strive for aggressive and potentially abusive relationships.
I remember how when I was in elementary school / middle school, my friend was shipping me with a guy cause we were always fighting, and she refused to believe me when I said I was hating him at the time. That was not LGBT+ related as it was a straight ship, but your comment made me think about that. And I think it is even worst with LGBT+ people because it encourages them to accept everything and to forgive things even if they don't want to.
@@nanalove3819 Same here, my colleagues kept teasing me that I had a crush on a guy I was fighting with and that only made it worse. The more they teased me, the more I disliked him. That was until I started high school, then I moved on but I still feel like it had an impact on me because I thought that when things were too cool when going out with someone it meant that something was wrong and they were losing interest and I ended up pushing people away because things were going "too well" and I would end up believing something bad will happen and it would eventually become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I really hope people ditch this unhealthy mindset that when someone bullies you they like you. It's really harmful and it makes people misinterpret abusive relationships as genuine.
Honestly I wish the trope that was more popular is the "closeted ally", I know way more queer people who came to the community as young teens under the guise of "I'm straight but I support lgbtq+ rights" and later came out than I know aggressive homophobes who were secretly closeted.
I have a dumb idea, closeted ally bully. They keep bullying people but it turns out the bullying is just their own asshole way of discreetly ruining bigoted students lives, and they’ve developed this emotional wall of violence in response to homophobic abuse, and they’re actually only closeted because he would genuinely be unsafe in his house if he came out.
¿Eso no sería también un tropo?. Eso sólo reforzaría el estereotipode de qué cualquiera persona heterosexual qué los apoye es un Queer en el armario. ¿No sería mejor qué el aliado siguiera siendo heterosexual en vez de salir del armario?
I hate this trope, because it, without necessarily saying it justifies toxic behavior of the closeted person without necessarily redeeming them over time
But the closeted bully trope by definition is simply a branch of the same tired trope of the secretly pining potential match going out of their way to be aggressive to show affection. It's not a gay or straight trope, but the idea that some abuse is love unable to be expressed in a manner befitting adults; Veronica Mars and Logan Echolls anyone?
what I find weird is, that somehow it is framed as a redeemable quality. It is a sound explanation going with real world psychology, but how did people turn it into an excuse, that it sure as hell is not?!
I feel that this trope represents a very small minority of people and not the majority of closed people who are discovering their feelings and how to be themselves in a homophonic society. Honestly the trope is hurting more than helping and my biggest problem is that it bi or sexually fluid coded characters are the biggest “villains” and it harming in how we view bi+ people and queer people overall.
I dont know about that as a gayman myself ive never bullied anyone and ive seen alot of stories like this i think guys that bully gays could be gay themselves but not all of them are imo anyways
Yep, I have two counts of girls bullying me in school for being queer who are both now out as lesbians. It is real unfortunately. I couldn't fucking believe it when I saw the girl who made my life hell on tinder looking for a girlfriend. I know I'm just an anonymous person on the internet to anyone reading this but I know from my own shitty experiences that sadly this trope does sometimes exist in real life and it hurts when people say it doesn't.
But there are also a few studies that suggest that often the most vocal and aggressive homophobes are gay themselves, so even though as always, media take it all out of proportion, there is a bit of truth to the trope. What I find worse is the depiction of relationships between bullies and their victims.
What people forget is that even though you're gay you can still be homophobic. Being gay doesn't give you a pass, doesn't make it any less harmful. Dont sympathise with your oppressor!!!
That’s what happens when writers try to make being gay someone’s entire personality. They forget that there is an actual person underneath of that label. We also don’t talk about the misogyny that occurs within the community and that it’s not just one big happy family.
@@LoveAndSnapple y ese es el problema con la representación de minorías étnicas o individuos Queer en los últimos años. Son tratados cómo adornos qué cómo personajes. Son estereotipos parlantes y andantes sin propósito más allá de ser la visión negativa de los guionistas heterosexuales o la autoinsercion insípidas de los guionistas Queer/LGBT modernos. Tomemos por ejemplo a Sokka de Avatar: la leyenda de Aang. Inició cómo el chico machista y cómo alivió cómico, pero con el paso de las temporadas los guionistas le dieron un gran desarrollo; pasó de tener pensamientos nocivos hacía las mujeres a valorarlas cómo guerreras y líderes (gracias a Yue y Suki), superó sus inseguridades e inquietudes y aprendió de sus errores.
Closeted bully characters tend to have more depth than straight bully characters. Unfortunately, bullies often make for very boring, annoying, one-note characters in general-especially male ones. Obviously, being closeted doesn’t really give someone an excuse to be a bully, but homophobia and closet cases take many different forms and most stories don’t explore that well. Nate from Euphoria is a closeted bully, but I would argue that he’s far more interesting because his internalized homophobia isn’t his only problem nor is it one-note. He’s abusive and sadistic in other ways as well.
Precisely, I hate how their previous bullying is immediately forgotten about, and they usually start dating their former victim. Especially egregious in the case of "Sex Education", where Otis points out that Adam made Eric's life a living hell for years, and he's only just showing remorse now.
@@trinaq Oh I HATED Eric and Adam’s romance, especially when he chose Adam over Rahim. It’s such a bad and unnecessary storyline in an otherwise pretty great show. At least in Euphoria, Jules sticks to her guns in being hateful towards Nate, despite them both having complicated feelings towards each other.
@@tariqthomas9090 I don't think we've heard the last of Nate and Jules. Remember how he admitted to her that everything he wrote to her as his alter ego was true? I think next season she will get involved with him again.
@@WinterSoldier0315 I hope not. It was going to be basically Adam and Erick 2.0, only much worse. At least Adam wasn't a sadist and even at the beginning of the series, he showed some trace of humanity and empathy, unlike Nate who is almost a "super villain". Putting Jules, a trans woman, with several problems of her own, who has already been blackmailed with her nudes and traumatized by him, would be unforgivable.
Lots of queer people have internalised homophobia but it doesn't always manifest itself in becoming a macho jock character that bullies gay people. I think it would be really interesting to explore more subtle interpretations of homophobia/ internalised homophobia that can come from closeted and out Queer people. And how this can affect other kinds of people other than jocks - for example it would be far more interesting to me to explore internalised homophobia from a more 'nerdy guy' perspective as that's not really done a lot
Exactly, most if not all queer people deal with internalized queer phobia but its different for everyone. Like for example, in my case I was taught from a young age that if my ideologies didn't align with my mother's (I also have a dad, but my mother's presence is stronger) I would be rejected, shamed and punished with silence, if I curiously decided to ask a "controversial" question, I would be shamed for asking and my mother would make me feel as if I just made the worst mistake in the world, she would take that as a personal attack on her person, therefore I just had to think like her every moment, basically study her thoughts like a text book so that I wouldn't say things out of turn. She wasn't a full of hate homophobe, rather a forgive the sinner and condemn the sin bs, she would talk about her personal friends who were lgbtq so she couldn't possibly hate them, but still if any of us (my siblings and i) decided that we liked a character that was queer, she would guilt us until we stopped liking that. The thing I figured out sooner was my gender (non binary, at age 13), which she despised, she hated that liked other clothes and all of that, to this she was more outwardly phobic of (she isn't hateful about it anymore, but she doesn't take seriously at all, neither for me or my sibling who also is non binary). In case of my sexuality, it wasn't until my sister came out as bi that I finally accepted and realized that I also liked girls (17), this was a pretty active thought in my mind now looking back, but the brainwashing was strong so I lived in denial, I first came out as bi, but turns out I had more unpacking to do bc I found out men aren't really a thing for me, so I came out as a lesbian not so long ago (19). My parents are supportive now, but they still struggle with some stuff and need to be more humble at being allies tbh, sometimes they refuse to listen to us (the actual queer people) and act as if they know it all lol, but well at least both my sister and I get to be happy now. Also shout out, to my very supportive brother, the token straight sibling haha
Yes, exactly! I think a good example of what you're saying - even if it's not comfirmed - is the possible internalized homophobia in Mike Wheeler's case in Stanger Things. It manifests itself in much more subtle ways than we see in the media and it affects a different kind of person than the typical jock, as Mike is a nerd. It is clearly shown to the viewer, and it actually is a central aspect of the show ( outcast, kids who are outside of the societal norms of the 80's ). If you look at his character and all the queer coding closely enough, hid queerness and internalized homophobia are very clear, I think. All of his bizarre behaviors would make sense in this context. It would explain a lot of his illogical actions, why he acts so differently from the beginning of the show, etc... I really hope they did it on purpose, that there is a real intention to talk about this topic, because if so, they are doing a good job.
I like when writers explore internalized homophobia and toxic masculinity in gay male characters, but I don’t really like when they exclusively use it for a villain and it feels like every homophobic person is a closeted gay themselves. Some people are just homophobic and don’t have an excuse. I thought that was why Brokeback Mountain worked incredibly well where as less fleshed out interpretations suck. At least not as frequently as it’s used. It’s almost only ever done to make a bully character look like a hypocrite or used as a way to embarrass or shame them for having internalized homophobia.
I really fucking hate this trope. Even when it’s done well out just feels awful and feeds into the “if he’s hurting you, he must like you” bullshit that we tell little girls, and then get surprised when they are stuck in an abusive relationship. And honestly, it would be so much more satisfying if the bully was straight, but they learn to become an ally and have a lifelong friendship with the LGBTQ person. Or even better, if when the straight bully learns to be an ally, the gay person goes “you hurt me to much for me to forgive you, but please go forth and be kinder because there are a lot of great people like me.” (And if this is happening in a movie, maybe have the movie end with the gay and the straight see each other across the venue of another person’s gay wedding and they give each other a nod of respect as they celebrate the couple. Just an idea I have.)
I'd love to see both on screen. There's not enough nuanced in 🏳️🌈 characters portrayals and most times than not, It relies on lazy writing, coddling the straight audience &/or piling on tired ass trope.
I don’t mind trope by itself but i can’t stand the idea of the gay person that they bully ending up with them. It perpetuates the idea that when someone is bothering you they are just “pulling your pigtails” so to speak. I don’t have trouble believing that they are projecting their own insecurities though.
Also, I feel like it needs to be said; "pulling someone's pigtails" and bullying them are two different things that get massively conflicted in media. There's a difference between squabbling or teasing someone because you don't know how to say you like them, and making someone's life hell by threats, destroying their property, and God knows what else. The "they do it because they like you" *can* be a harmless trope if executed right *but* it is mostly done awfully in media.
It can happen but it isn’t the normal. And as you stated all is just not forgiven just like that. I am engaged to my high school bully, but: 1. I hated him even more when I found he was attracted to me. Went out of my way to let him know I hated him. 2(probably the most important one). He put in the work. He dug down deep, came to terms with his sexuality, went on his apology tour as he came out, endured a hellish year for him when he came out and was disowned by his family as a whole and kicked out, yet he still kept trying to improve himself. 3. He took all my shit I put out patiently. He never went back to bullying, and I noticed. I fell in love him for it.
@2freeIvX but still, it's not the same. Like, I don't even like the trope, but even I can see that the dynamic between two enemies is so not the same to an aggressor and the victim of said aggressor. When it's between enemies, usually, it's clear that both parties are standing on more or less equal ground and the conflict goes both ways. And sometimes, it's more like they're just on opposing sides, with opposing objectives and there's nothing personal in the conflict. But the bully torments their victim and the victim just wants to be left alone. There's a power imbalance and no reciprocity.
@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774 thanks for that. But when you’re faced with relentless aggression for years and years and you’ve got conflicting feelings you need something to make sense of it. We didn’t have the internet or spaces to find refuge or make sense of it in ways that are rational or perfect.
13:48 "Eric later chooses Adam over a partner who has ALWAYS been kind, sensitive and sexy. And for what reason?" RIGHT!!? RIGHT!!? Adam is trade! Rahim is boyfriend material! Justice for Rahim! I will die mad about it!
I actually like the fact Eric didn't like Rahim just because a guy is nice sensitive and sexy doesn't mean there's anything wrong with someone for not being attracted too them,ultimately eric and rahime had nothing in common and the show highlighted religion being very important to eric so the moment rahime revealed himself to be atheistic who sneered at religion that kinda emphasized they weren't compadible. I'm still not big on eric x Adam but pushing the idea you should date a guy just because hes nice and hot is also fairly toxic.
@@alorapendrak2925 I don't think the issue was that Eric wasn't attracted to Rahim. I think the issue was that Adam was going through a redemption arc and Eric was his reward. The entire history of Adam & Eric up to that point consists of abuse, sex and few nights of breaking things while talking about their feelings. Their relationship was exciting but only because it existed in a bubble. After Eric chose him (in the following season), it became clear that they didn't have much in common and Adam wasn't ready to be anyone's boyfriend. What they had was superficial. If Eric were more mature, he would have recognized that before leaving Rahim at the point in which they were actually getting to know each other.
I read an interview once with Dan Levy where he talked about the lack of homophobia in Schitt's Creek was a genuine choice on his part as the series creator. Yes, homophobia is real and prevalent, but there ARE people in the world who are supportive and loving, even closeted people who just haven't come out yet. Which of course brings me to Patrick. Patrick is closeted well into his thirties and has only straight relationships, starts a loving, supportive relationship with David, but then we learn, still hasn't come out to his parents. But TWIST! his parents are heartbroken not because he's gay, but because he didn't trust them to still love and support him! 😭💖💖💖 We often only see the closeted person as homophobic, or their reason for not coming out is because of their homophobe parents, or their only in straight relationships to try to get rid of their homosexual feelings. Yet just another reason why I love Schitt's Creek 😊
This is a really tricky trope, largely because there’s a lot of truth. Of course not all homophobes are in the closet- but being in the closet, that recipe of repressed desires, constant doses of internal and external homophobia, the confusion and self loathing, constant lying does frequently manifest as the homophobic bully. So the trope itself isn’t the problem, its the way media plays it out and the way we receive it. For one, it has to stop being seen as an excuse for their behavior. Especially today, media has really focused on the sympathetic bully, the bad guy with a tragic past you can relate to. Which is fine, except that they skip the step where they say “having a rough past doesn’t mean you get to be awful to everyone else”, which leads audiences to sympathize with the character and then excuse their behavior instead of holding them accountable. And two, stop having every homophobe be a closet case. Yes some, even a good portion are, but not all. There are lots of paths that lead a person to homophobia yet the only one that gets the spotlight (in most cases) is the homosexual homophobe. The answer isn’t to kill the trope because these are peoples stories and burying them solves nothing. We have to restructure how this story is told and the purpose behind telling it.
This. It’s in my opinion that a lot of tropes we see as problematic are not inherently problematic. The problem arises when the writing is sloppy and the characters are not fleshed out properly.
I just wanna say that Dave Karofsky from Glee was one of the few examples of this trope becoming more humanized and sympathetic. He started off as a bully, but changed his ways, became a genuinely better person, and apologized to the person he bullied. He also is shown to eventually accept his sexuality but in one of the most heart breaking episodes of the show he is outed at school, thereby living his worst fear and attempts to kill himself. He is one of the best examples of character development that we get on that show.
Which is why I’m irritated that Santana was used in the thumbnail… she wasn’t a bitch bc she’s closeted & homophobic, and she wasn’t ever nasty to Kurt or Blaine SPECIFICALLY bc they’re gay. She was an equal-opportunity bitch and I love that for her
Even if people still wanted to write this trope, it would at least feel fresher to see it done differently. Not everyone with internalized homophobia becomes a violent bully! Internalized homophobia is multifaceted and nuanced. The most common thing to do is misinterpreting your emotions and pushing yourself as far away as possible from anything related to it. What I think would be more interesting to analyze is the (at first unexplained) discomfort that one feels surrounding the topic of sexuality. But movies don't really show that...
I have an idea for a story where there’s a closeted homophobic bully who kisses his victim drunk at a party, claims it’s a mistake that he doesn’t intend to do again, and at this point we’re being lead to believe he’s in love with the guy he’s bullying. But plot twist, when he is crowned prom king he kicks the queen off the stage and gives the crown to his fellow bully friend in a grand romantic gesture that they’d been planning for days, then they publicly kiss on the podium, and after this point the two continue to bully the protagonist after the fact. Another idea is that the homophobic bully doesn’t hide it from the protag and actually catches him alone to tell him exactly what he’s doing and that he wishes he could stop but can’t because sympathizing with him publicly would make him the target of bullying, too. Or a third idea, the homophobic bully bullies a gay student because the student is femme with a lisp and therefore he thinks that rejecting him makes the LGBT community look better, and the bully is actually openly gay himself and has been trying desperately to appear as a respectable face for gay people to the homophobes around him. Or maybe the bully is actually not even consciously homophobic, and really wants to have an actual gay friend to relate to because the straight people around him don’t really get the whole gay thing. His redemption arc starts when he realizes that the boy he’s bullying is actually gay, making him the only gay person he knows at his own school. This results in him trying desperately to make a friendship between them work.
I also have an idea for a story where the homophobic closeted jock isn’t even slightly mean to the gay people around him actually tries befriend the boy he secretly likes rather than bullying him, but due to his stereotypical ideas of what a gay person is, ends up pushing the guy away and has to confront his biases.
I always felt like this trope was a way for writers to somehow blame queer people for homophobia transphobia. Because if the only people who can be homophobic are secretly closeted, then it erases the broader societal unacceptance of queer identities and places blame on the self hatred of queer characters. It also erases the fact that there are straight people who simply are homophobic. Overall I’ve seen people respond to this trope as a way to dismiss homophobic rhetoric as a form of self hatred when in reality a majority of people still have homophobic biases.
I'm a little surprised they didn't bring up Mickey Milkovich from the US version of Shameless for this trope considering everything he went through and how he changed
Oh yah, very true! I forgot about Mickey and Ian. I hated both of their dads. They were both pieces of shit, but because we also got things from Frank's perspective, they framed him as slightly more sympathetic, especially towards the end. But I'll give him that at least he wasnt homophobic and accepted Ian for who he was. Whereas Mickey's dad is a whole other story. He tried to sabotage their wedding lol!
i hate this trope, but at the same time it happened to me. i was bullied at school, and called everything under the sun. then again i was also a geek, so was bullied for that too. yep, 1990's school days, at an all girls school (good times). i was confused about what was going through my head, but because i wasn't feminine, and more tom boyish, and into "boys things" like comics and anime, as well as being an introvert. i stood no chance then years later, met one at my bullies, and she was a bully as in she bullied everyone. i wasn't her only victim. she was a nasty pierce of work. the kicker was, i came out a year after i left the school, when i was at college. when she saw me, we bumped into each other club called the Candy Bar, in Soho years later she was so casual, and acted like it we were long lost friends, and "Yeah, i came out in college, took me a while.(me too actually) We could meet up and catch up sometimes". I told her to her face to "Go F**k herself" kudos to her for finding her truth, but that doesn't excuse her crappy behavior, and her coming out doesn't change the damage she did to her victims and there were many.
The thing I really dislike isn't really when the bully turns out to be closeted, but they're redeemed bc they're gay for their victim. Bullying is literally abusive harassment, and now it's being turned into a romance bc gay and gay= they have to kiss. It treats a very real issue of gay men being discriminated against into a romantic trope. Nothing wrong with angst every now and then but lot of the lgbtq+ just want a more wholesome(?) queer romance that doesn't have to remind them of their trauma.
Tbh, it’s a very true thing. They may not necessarily be a violent bully but they often loudly participate in gay bashing, homophobic jokes or surround themselves with such peers
They do, but this trope is over exaggerated to the point of where it’s basically negative representation in a way. Especially the way they get a redemption arc 9 out of 10 times.
@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774 The issue that it shows that you can be rewarded for such fucked up behavior. Like for example, Monty is a literal RAPIST and got a redemption arc before he died. He should’ve went to jail but no he did not.
@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774 It's a problem depending on how it is done especially if they're the only homophobic character in the show/movie. If the only real homophobic representation comes from closeted gay/queer people it kind of creates this picture that homophobes aren't nessecarily bad people (or really homophobic) they just haven't come out yet and their hatred is coming from a personal place of insecurity and shame when in actuality most homophobes are just assholes. Most of them aren't queer either.
@@hellolimitless9432 he doesn't get to be with Charlie in the end unlike the stereotypical trope, and the viewers aren't forced to sympathize with him. Heartstopper is breaking boundaries
@@neon2319 Yes you are right, that’s why I said it’s not totally correct. Ben do not end with the person he bullied and don’t have a redemption as of now but he still embodies the closeted bully trope even if technically he does not bully Charlie in public.
In American Beauty, I had assumed Col Fitz killed Kevin Spacey’s character because he was afraid he might out him and possibly out of feeling hurt that Spacey told him that he had the “wrong idea.”
Yeah. I also think Fitz still believe Lester is gay and the he only got rejected coz Fitz like his boys young, like Ricky. So that probably hurt him a little more.
@@NA86737 he never outed karofsky though. if anything, the writers made it a point for kurt to repeatedly say he wont ever say a thing to anyone about the kiss or karofsky's sexuality. the entire side plot is shit and never should have been done in the first place, but kurt never outed anyone throughout the show. maybe you're thinking of finn outing santana?
I like the scene in "The Rage in Placid Lake" where Placid, the weirdo protagonist, is cornered by three bullies, and then tells one of the bullies that he knows his secret- he's gay but can't tell his mates for fear of them rejecting who he is, so that leaves him in a state of constant frustration and causes him to lash out at those weaker than him. The other two bullies are shocked, and the third bully admits that, yes, he is gay. The bullies say they understand and accept him, hug him, and then grab Placid and start to beat him up. Placid protests, saying that he was the one to make Bully #3 confront and embrace his sexuality, and Bully #3 says, "I don't let my sexuality define who I am" before uppercutting Placid in the stomach. Beating up Placid wasn't a defense mechanism due to repressed homosexuality, the bullies just didn't like Placid because he was a weirdo.
I often find the closeted bully to really be an attempt to give the "villain" a redemption arc and the creators assume that we will like this bigot if they are gay or we'll excuse their behavior. Cheryl Blossom from Riverdale is an example of this. She barely changes even after coming out, still continuing to be a trash person. People also insist that when people don't get along with someone it is somehow "sexual tension" which is the farthest thing from the truth. This has led to so many people thinking it's okay to get in a relationship that is toxic. I also think these tropes don't leave room for a bully to actually become an ally that truly accepts queer people. We need more of these examples in media than we do a bully coming out as gay. Not to mention, the closeted person doesn't always have to be "gay" or "lesbian". What about bi/pan, trans, and ace/aros people? Much of the closeted bully seems to have this monosexual feeling of entrapment when in reality they could fall anywhere across the spectrum.
I thought this trope was originally an anti-bullying trope. It used to be about comedy through hypocrisy. If a bully is trying too hard to show what a big tough man he is, for a long time it was funny to see a punchline that he is secretly gay or something else. This also seems like a variation on the "mistaken for gay" punchline that was on a lot of sitcoms in the 1990s.
Perhaps Mac from Always Sunny does this trope somewhat well. He’s homophobic but doesn’t really antagonize gay people most of the time. He’s one of the protagonists so he’s gets to be a more well-developed character than others. And he eventually gets to come out, “find his pride” in one episode and become a more fulfilled person.
I'm in the middle about this concept because tbh in real life it's something that IS very real but also we both shouldn't use outing them as a comeback to their homophobia while also we shouldn't justify them. Truth is other fellow queers should stay as far away from these closeted homophobes because the baggage, problems and violence they will bring to you is not the best energy to have around.
Can't believe Mickie Malkovich wasn't included as he touches all of this points and he happened long before Sex Education. Through the episodes so much happens between him and Ian, not only does he hurts but is also hurt by Ian, we see his relationship with his father, his struggles in his relationship that are not just about being closeted and even after he comes out we still see him struggle in other ways. In the end he comes out as a multi-dimentional character.
Honestly , I really liked the way this trope was used in Sex Education. I like the idea of Adam , a teenage boy who has repressed his bisexuality because of his upbringing , becoming a bully to Eric because he feels threatened by how openly Eric is able to express his sexuality and subsequently trying to become a better person and becoming more emotionally vulnerable. I think that characters or even people like Adam who have been ingrained with hatred can become better people with the willingness to do that and with external support. I've really liked to see Adam grow because unlike the trope where a person who is homophobic becomes completely open to their identity seemingly overnight , Adam works throughout season 2 to get comfortable with being bisexual. I think that Adam and Eric breaking up was inevitable. Eric has been out and proud since he was 13 , Adam on the other hand just came to terms with being bisexual and only comes out to his mother by the end of season 3. They were at different comfort levels from the beginning. If anyone has reached this point , I would like to say that I hope that they don't try to put Adam and Eric back in a relationship in season 4 because it , in my opinion, would keep them both from growing further as characters. I hope they still remain friends and that Eric stops kissing other boys when he already has a boyfriend.
As a LBGT bullying survivor, women are often told "he bullies you because he likes you" (including me). That pisses me off, too. Glee is particularly toxic, because the character ended up dating the person who brutally assaulted them. I'd also love you to cover more bullying tropes in the future as bullying is a social issue that needs more discussion.
I totally agree with you. Though tbh I also appreciated the twist ending more for this reason. I thought I was watching the soft and sensitive gay boy guide the closeted homophobic bully through a redemption arc, how predictable. What ends up happening instead was so much more satisfying. Lol
@@theitalianalien8477 I don’t think the only trope of homophobic people are closeted gays. There are homophobic people that just hate anything that’s different from them.
I feel like one decision Boys in the Band made that was INCREDIBLY well done (in both the original and the remake, by the way, please check out both) was to never reveal if Alan was straight or not. Both would make sense in the time period considering Alan's assault of Emory (an out and proud queer man) and his refusal to admit that he was in love with the college friend. If he was straight, of course he would be telling the truth, and would naturally be disgusted at any implication or suggestion of homosexuality given the general consensus and actual anti-gay laws at the time, but if he WAS on some level queer, I doubt he would have admitted it to anyone, let alone himself, due to the internalised homophobia he'd probably face. A very smart choice makes for an interesting ending and one that isn't common in most queer media now.
I didn't even read into it that Nate was closeted. (Sure Jules called him similar to his dad but I thought that was her just taunting him.) But I'm seeing so many things about it that maybe I need to rewatch to analyse.
To be honest, as someone who is very queer, I kinda like this trope. First, it helps me see examples of people being able to change sometimes- like Adam and the like. Second, it’s really funny to see homophobes desperately down playing their homophobia when being told that it might be a sign they’re gay 😂 definitely problematic but also makes for some compelling characters and stories when done right
Agree, and is usually funny to me seeing gay characters trying too hard to come across as straight "Can we talk about the giant elephant in the room?" "Your sexuality?"
Ngl, Santana will always remain my favorite lesbian character on tv. I know she was mean but still, as a lesbian myself, I loved Santana playing the character she played.
If you pay attention in his episode in season 1 and all his trauma with his dad sex tape, you will see Nate have conflicts about his sexuality. This guy is bi, pretty clear.
@@gabriellacardosopaiva417 I think seeing his dad doing gross acts from a young age obviously gave him bad trauma and affected his sexuality, his own dad gave him sx abuse nightmares, that's doesn't make him bi or gay.
Exacty. It's funny how people claim that they see trans women as real women until a man is attracted to them. Suddenly, the trans woman doesn't count as a real woman to these people? It seems transphobic to say that a straight man must be gay, bi, or pan because he's attracted to a trans woman, because it implies that they still see trans women as men, or just not fully female. That's what I think is very tricky about people saying that Nate is "clearly in the closet" for being attracted Jules. She's a trans woman. You can't say you recognize trans women but then also say that men who are attracted to them are gay or bi (unless they guy is actually bisexual). Either you see trans women as real women or you don't.
@@gabriellacardosopaiva417 I don't buy it. I mean, maybe but for me it mostly seems like he has some se*ual trauma especially around male bodies because of his dad's tapes. He never seems interested in men but he seems awful lot uncomfortable with them. I think he internalized the mindset of his dad and his scenes in the young age, and now adopted a mindset of "dominate or be dominated at all cost". Which is why he is aggresive to people so often, uses everything he has to have power over them. It's pretty clear he's terrified of his dad/his dad dominating him, which is why he despises him. Would also explain why he's so obsessed with femininity - it's non threatening to him on the surface. Tldr: more than him being closeted, I think it's him being uncomfortable with men due to trauma.
You are heterosexual if you only have sex with the opposite sex and trans people are not the opposite sex they are a different variation in sexual orientation and identity. Nate is not heterosexual.
I actually kinda like this trope, but only on paper, because most attempts at it lack nuance and make it seem like violent hate crimes are justified and it sucks. But I'd take more nuanced characters who lash out on others because of their own insecurities.
I think Billy Hargrove was a good example of someone lashing out due to his own abuse and insecurity though its not a closet gay bully trope. But it was quiet similar to this.
I feel like a character taking out there self hatred on others could be done well, but more often than not, it's just a shoe horned effort to redeem the character.
A really interesting version of this trope, a version I'd argue that was done right, or at least well, is Ragh Barkrock from the D&D actual play series Fantasy High. Ragh is a bully from the start, but he bullies pretty indiscriminately, mainly the people he deems 'losers' - not the queer members of the party. He's popular and on the football team, and it's later revealed that he has a crush on his football teammate and fellow bully, as opposed to one of the people he's bullying. Ragh is an interesting character, and a big part of his character arc, especially in season one, is realizing that he's gay, and moving on from his prior bullying tendencies. I think what makes him a good character is the fact that while his bullying technically stems, at least in part, from his insecurity regarding his sexuality, he doesn't seem to be actively homophobic, just sort of confused and angry.
I'm a very petty person , and I personally don't like to see anyone who bullied me for any kinds of reasons ending up find acceptance and happiness，so I personally do not like this trope that much but it exists for a reason. So… party I guess.
I don't hate this trope (I don't hate any tropes) but this one does get a little eye-rolling after seeing it for the millionth time. This was an interesting Take. But is the answer really to just tell "happy" gay stories? Doesn't really seem like it addresses the issue. Surely there's a way to tell this kind of storytelling conflict with more nuance? Or are we asking to get rid of this storytelling conflict altogether?
I don't think the call for happy gay stories is about the removal of conflict. Just the mean-spirited, toxic conflicts and overdone tropes. I grew up seeing gay people in toxic relationship, being abused, sick, dying etc. with very little counterpoints. Those happier and diverse stories definitely serve a purpose too.
You know one thing I liked about Sebastian Smythe from Glee, before he was 'redeemed'? He's just the worst type of person and it's unrelated to him being closeted, he's open about his sexuality and about being an elitist, racist, classist, sexist jerk who enjoys bullying others and at no point do they try to use him being closeted to justify this behavior, he's an asshole because of how he's raised and who he is as a person. I actually preferred him as an antagonist, because sadly it's realistic there are plenty of upper-class/ popular LGBT+ folks who work against their lower-class LGBT+ counterparts: Milo Yiannopoulos, Dave Rubin, Caitlin Jenner, Alice Weidel, Arielle Scarcella, Blaire White, Andy Ngo hell it's nothing new look at Roy Cohn the guy who sold people out to McCarthy and Reagan. Cohn was gay and Jewish, and he sold out LGBT+ people and even Jewish people, his own religious group to McCarthy. Cohn was just the type of person who would've probably sold out anyone except maybe the people he loved, because he was the type of person who always wanted to be the closest to the top, that's a failing of being a Republican and being an asshole. The quilt really undersold how much of a bastard Cohn was.
Bro I WAS a closeted bully and I feel ashamed for things I said and did in high school. I wasn't even out to myself yet, had a lot of "weird experiences" I was too scared to unpack and find out I was "one of them." I didn't bully anyone because I had a crush on them though. I feel like that really oversimplifies my experiences. I need others to prove to me that it was a choice, I think. I needed to see someone else get fixed or something before I could feel safe enough to figure my shit out. Growing out of that was a rough experience and at least I'm still alive to feel cringe about my old beliefs.
As someone who had internalized homophobia for most of my life I always related to this trope, not because I was a homophobe but because I never was. The closeted homophobe was like a cautionary tale to me. No matter how depressed, suicidal or self hating I was I NEVER took it out on the LGBTQ+ community. I was an ally who couldn't come to terms with what I was
I live in India, particularly village. If I come out as a gay , my income and influence over people will be destroyed so I m sure I will choose to being in closet.
I'm so sick of this trope because yes it is true that some homophobic bullies are closeted but it's not as common as people think it is. Some people are simply homophobic
I think the issue is less about this type of story being told, and more about how *often* it is told and how it's romanticized. I can totally see a very frightened LGBTQ+ kid being learnt homophobia from birth to the point that it hinders their path towards identification, or living in such a homophobic place that being a notorious homophobe actually protects them (as in David Karofsky's case, for example). I know it's happened to queer people and I think it's great there are some stories about it because everybody needs representation and internalised homophobia is real. The issue is that the stories mostly focus on making the homophobe end up with their victim, and not really on self-acceptance and becoming a better person for the sake of it. It's all very superficial. Another issue is how *often* it recurs in the media, to the point that the homophobe is almost always a closeted gay. To the point that my own mother is convinced that *all* homophobes are actually closeted gays. And it seriously diminishes her (and other people's) understanding of how deep homophobia runs, how it affects us, and what homophobes really want to do to us. With less romance, less systematization, and more portrayals of actual homophobia (+ portrayals of homophobes who learn to be allies, because that's also what society needs, not that picture that if you soften up towards the queers then you'll necessarily be queer too), I think the trope would be mostly fine.
I probably wouldn't mind this trope so much if the bully at least got with someone other than the person they tormented. Like if this troupe existed but we got to focus on the victims perspective of trying to forgive their bully as they recognise them as becoming a better person, maybe also showing that you can forgive people for your own peace of mind but that doesn't mean you think what they did was okay or that you have to like them. THAT could actually be interesting and quiet cathartic. But no, every time they end up falling in love and sometimes they die for it. 🏳️🌈Good gay fun🏳️🌈
i dont think its a bully someone you like type of thing. its a "i wish i could accept myself like you do so i will try to make you feel afraid and shameful too" type of thing imo
Wow, It is funny how now, that you mentioned it, I can see how common it has become. Tv & Movies can really be very weird in their depiction of reality.
This trope may be overused but it is very true. My conservative Muslim stepdad was a self-loathing homophobe and he molested me and made my life a living hell for fear that I would out him. Even though I am a gay man myself, I have never had sex with another man because of how dirty and gross I feel. I hate what patriarchy, toxic masculinity, and self-loathing do to queer men. Our world teaches us to hate ourselves. The pain builds up so much that we either begin to unleash out on others or ourselves. Glad that asshole is out of my life.
From my own experience I think, this trope is reflected in bisexual men. In my hookup-phase there were a lot of men that wanted to experiment with me but didn't want this bisexual side of them outed. They usually only have sex with girls, sometimes they have a girlfriend or are maybe even married. I think that has a lot to do with the fact that bisexual men are (in contrast to bisexual women) much less accepted. From my own experience I know that there are a lot of men out there, that have sam-sex attraction but don't act on it or don't out themselves because they are also attracted to women, so they just go with the socially easier option and this constant surpressed part of their sexuality may very well lead to violent behaviour.
4:07 "The Imitation Game" really? Not a good example of a written story that shows closeted gays as tragic. Since its based on a real situation and not a made up story.
The thing about this trope is that it doesn't really succeed at explaining the reasons for homophobia, it just pushes the question one layer forward. If homophobes are *secretly* gay and are *repressing* their sexuality because it makes them hate themselves, why would their gay sexuality make them hate themselves and want to hide? Because society is homophobic, with closeted homophobes in it or not.
I would like to see the take do a video about other forms of bullying. Particularly when main characters abuse the working class and it's played for laughs. Like pushing past the hapless receptionist who is only trying to do her job or yelling at a member of waitstaff and it's supposed to be funny. It isn't funny it's classist down punching.
Did anyone else have to close their eyes everytime clips from the bathroom scene of 13RW came on? I will never ever watch that scene again. To this day seeing images of it makes my stomach turn and I feel genuinely in pain when I see it. I just can't handle it.
@@darlalathan6143 I watched Django Unchained once.... Never again. Its too violent for me. Feels like torture porn. Trigger warnings are super important for reasons like this.
That's probably where the trope came from! It's called "You Are What You Hate," and covers every marginalized group. Strom Thurmond was a racist with a biracial daughter from an interracial affair with his maid in his youth. J.K. Rowling once wrote to another TERF that if she had been born a Millennial, she would be transitioning as a trans man. Most TERFs are "butch" lesbians or 2nd wave "political lesbian" (man-hating, possibly asexual) feminists from the '70s
As others have mentioned, it's a huge oversight to leave Shameless out of this conversation. The Ian/Mickey storyline humanizes the bully without trivializing the victim's experience, accumulates complexity over multiple seasons, and gives us an unflinching look at the brutality of violent homophobia. The couple experience many highs and lows in their relationship, and both men are written with lots of specificity and nuance. I know the researchers/writers of this channel can't possibly watch and comment on every show/film, but I have no idea how they missed such an interesting and obvious reference.
I couldn't help but notice that female closeted homophobes were rarely mentioned in the video. For example, Cheryl from Riverdale was making homophobic comments about Toni and surprise surprise, the two of them were dating for a very long time and poor Toni was stuck in a toxic relationship. Also, Alison from PLL made Emily feel so ashamed of being a lesbian and then they ended up getting married in the end (luckily they've gotten a divorce in PLL The Perfectionists).
i wish that more media showed just people having internalised homophobia, just.. because. like why does it always need to stem from some mega gay-related trauma. it shows that a lot of these are made by straight people cos it doesn't show how difficult it is to just FEEL different and excluded and straight people just don't get that. like i didn't have homophobia really around me but that doesn't mean it wasn't really difficult to come to terms with being gay.
I'm pretty much tired of all cliche tropes presented in the same pattern... Bad boy good girl, closeted homophobe, ...I'm not even remembering which are the ones I got tired of ughhhhh
It can be true but it shouldn’t be the assumption. I ended up in a 13 year abusive relationship bc of conditioning from tropes like this. My bully became my lover straight out of high school. I thought the abuse was from his self hatred. Yes, he was the trope stereotype… but it wasn’t because of that for why he was abusive. He was just abusive. My dad was abusive to me so because of that I accepted this. I fantasized my relationship till it almost led to my death and I ultimately had report him to the police after being put in the hospital after the last beating I took. He went to prison for two years and I moved away bc I feared for my life.
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This trope explains to me, today, the extremely weird and sometimes unacceptable fetish I see so many gay guys having on toxic "alpha" narcissists on IG and Twitter (findoms and so, disgusting).
DISAGREE with your analysis of jules and nate. Nate cannot be called gay because of his attraction to Jules - Jules is a WOMAN. She's a girl, and he acknowledges her as such. Nate has shown no attraction to men ever, and to say that he has repressed homosexual feelings because of Jules is transphobic towards her - if he IS attracted to Jules, he's a man attracted to a woman. He's still straight, maybe with a distorted view of sexual identity but still straight, because Jules is a trans woman. If you want to argue that Nate is gay, use the d pics on his phone, not jules. I know the euphoria community hates Jules but you cannot devalue her identity as a trans woman.
Yes to all lf this! I at first assumed that he is bi, because Maddie confronts him about that, because lf the dpics, but not because of his attraction for Jules. Wasn't therr also a scene in season 1 where he was watching other guys run a marathon? I thought it was generally implied that he had na interest in men, but I could have just misunderstood that because I'm generally new to understand and be considerate towards trans people...this type of stuff fliws straight over my head.
@@nunyabiznes33 Jules in the show isn't on the recieving end of bullying at least not outside from the first time she is confronted about it at the party (like the video above), but she is the protagonists love interest, and because the show is narrated by the protagonist we sympathise with her point of view. Jules' initial behaviour is misleading because the protagonist is head over heels about Jules, while Jules really is still hung up on a guy and then also after getting intimate with the protagonist sleeps with another girl, and in the second season they're officially a couple, but then Jules cheats on the protagonist. She is disliked for her personality, not for her gender.
@@nunyabiznes33 I mean Rue, the girl that has her issues wirh drug addiction. That drug addiction part is kinda important because Rue treats Jules like a replacement drug because she gets her euphoria from loving Jules now, and that is also a problem, because Jules realises that Rue only stays clean because of Jules and Jules hesitates to get serious with Rue because she knows that Rue has developed a codependent relationship with Jules.
There *are* closeted and formerly closeted people that genuinely started out as bullies and/or homophobes! However, it's a lot less common and a lot more complicated than in most Hollywood depictions.
we need to do away with it but i guess since they always get the fine toxic ones and then reward it with the piece of ass he wanted to smash from the start. makes me wonder why its still a thing in 2022
I really like the trope compared to anyone. I'm just irritated that it's treated as an excuse for someone ' behavior (fr, why would they date their victim ???)
I love you guys. Thank you for seeing us. We gotta do better. Also when we stop obsessing about others and focus on ourselves. That's clearly what drives others
major reminder: the Hayes Code has heavily caused this trope to exist, since by it's definition, "no non-straight could go unpunished" in media. We're only recently (the last 2-ish decades) getting the chance to have happy gays/non-straights in stories that get to make their way to the bigger budgets. (this is addressed in the essay)
I think it's a difficult trope to grasp. Monty was eventually made out to be a character we're supposed to sympathise with and love, but are we just supposed to ignore that he brutally tortured a boy? Is this what Euphoria is going to do with Nate?
Another problem with this trope is it perpetuates the idea that all homophobes are secretly closeted gays and obfuscates the reality that some people are just hateful bigots, who are nasty to others because they are different; there isn't always a deep down dark reasoning for hate.
This is used so much, I used to think I HAD to go through a self-hating phase, and I felt somehow not as qu//r for not going through it. Quite harmful.
Honestly, as someone who grew up socialized as girl, this trope always seemed like "if he bullies you he has secretly a crush on you!" repackaged for gay men
bi products of this trope I can't find the name for
@@Laquia abusive relationships
Me too. People kept telling me ‘ so-and -so teases you, because he likes you.’ Normal people don’t go around destroying other people
YES
Wait socialised as a girl
I loved that ‘Heartstopper’ showed that Homophobes are Homophobes. The bullying came from a place but we don’t have to empathise with them.
Heartstopper also showed Charlie dating two characters in the closet and clearly showed that one was abusive and totally in the wrong, while the other was a great case study of meeting people where they are and self-discovery.
I don't know what The Take is still waiting for to make an analysis on Heartstopper.
@like where sorry, I had a hard time understanding what you meant, do you think you could explain it to me? thank you!
@ Heartstopper is the first show I've ever seen that actually shows a pseudo romanticized version of queer youth(which is really fucking depressing since it's 2022) and for that it's legendary. Maybe they're ust trying to find out what aspect in particular they should cover? I personally think they should do those character series' like they did with The Office where they go into each character extensively
Whatever, they do I can't wait for the analysis so I can quote every single scene they use as an example word for word
Yeah and as a bisexual, it was nice to see that they didn't use Ben as a kind of "All bi/mspec people are unfaithful or secretly homophobic because we still got Nick and everyone loves Nick
i hate _hate_ *hate* it when the bully gets together with their victim. like, great that they're growing as a person! just make them stay the hell away from the person they've tormented💀
exactly if it was straight couple that would not fly
You guys complain about anything. The bullying isn’t that serious. They put things aside to be important to each other.
@@PNesssmol "bullying isn't that serious" yea alright stay away from me
@@starsareglowing Funny of you assume people would want to be near you. It’s the flow of a literal narrative. I’m not sure why you took it personal. The main idea is the bullying gets put aside by the victim because they saw it was out of a psychological flaw, they see how serious bullying was and see it as an obstacle they over came to be with one another. It’s used in many shows and books. You see if in real life as well.
But I understand it’s trendy to be over critical like a twitter feed. In that case. Periodt sis. It’s the toxic masculinity for me.
I really detest this Trope. It basically tells impressionable viewers that your bully is only targeting you because they have a crush on you, and that their previous toxic behaviour will be easily forgiven.
This and really it's a dangerous trope in the long run it makes LGBTQ people have a perspective that can cause violence.
I hated what they did with it in Sex Ed. Hate that Eric ended up with his bully anyway.
And I oop
I hate this trope soooo much!!
And also, who would be romantically involved with their bully? 😡
It's just a trope. A character archetype that Hollywood understands and can copy and paste when they need a character that does the things this character type is known for. It's not about "saying" anything or reinforcing stupid unspoken messages. People tend to forget, it's just a movie. A piece of entertainment.
I’m a gay man who was bullied in high school by a guy I ended up being boyfriends with.
Here’s the difference….I didn’t get with him right after he kissed me. I hated him even more and shut him down for a whole year until he proved to me he could be a better man. He went around and apologized to those who he bullied, came out to his mom which didn’t go well(he got kicked out and disowned by his family), and seeing him actually trying to become a better person regardless of all the hate he got was what made me fall for him…I’m engaged to him now.
TL;DR Not against the bully being closeted gay, but all being forgiven without any consequences is where I draw the line.
i m so happy to hear it. congrats btw
Cute ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
Yes, this is how it needs to be shown in stories
Congrats dude!
Congratulations to you both ❣️ 🎉
I’m really tired of this trope. It really pushes the stereotype that closeted people are nothing but bullies.
Agreed, it also seems that you have to forgive them right away, and forget any bullying that they previously did.
pop culture these days: Forgive your bully, it's not their fault. they're going through worse than you
@@loadedx16 despite the fact that some of the bullies are rich
Like someone else in the comments mentioned Heartstopper did a great job with this trope (one stereotypical closet bully and another Not) they showed that closeted people ARE NOT always bullies.
@@kittykittybangbang9367 rich people can have it hard too because I'm sure in some rich families they don't allow their kids to be gay or they will take away their inheritance or disown them 😖
I also hate this trope. In general it seems that we are taught as a society that if someone bullies you, they probably have a crush on you, and that's not only harmful to perpetuate, especially within the LGBTQIAP+ community, but can also encourage young people to strive for aggressive and potentially abusive relationships.
I remember how when I was in elementary school / middle school, my friend was shipping me with a guy cause we were always fighting, and she refused to believe me when I said I was hating him at the time.
That was not LGBT+ related as it was a straight ship, but your comment made me think about that.
And I think it is even worst with LGBT+ people because it encourages them to accept everything and to forgive things even if they don't want to.
@@nanalove3819
Same here, my colleagues kept teasing me that I had a crush on a guy I was fighting with and that only made it worse. The more they teased me, the more I disliked him. That was until I started high school, then I moved on but I still feel like it had an impact on me because I thought that when things were too cool when going out with someone it meant that something was wrong and they were losing interest and I ended up pushing people away because things were going "too well" and I would end up believing something bad will happen and it would eventually become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I really hope people ditch this unhealthy mindset that when someone bullies you they like you. It's really harmful and it makes people misinterpret abusive relationships as genuine.
@@nanalove3819 It's a shame she didn't ship you back as a defective product
This is the dumbest thing I have read on the internet this month.
When did the P come?
Honestly I wish the trope that was more popular is the "closeted ally", I know way more queer people who came to the community as young teens under the guise of "I'm straight but I support lgbtq+ rights" and later came out than I know aggressive homophobes who were secretly closeted.
That's literally me
I have a dumb idea, closeted ally bully. They keep bullying people but it turns out the bullying is just their own asshole way of discreetly ruining bigoted students lives, and they’ve developed this emotional wall of violence in response to homophobic abuse, and they’re actually only closeted because he would genuinely be unsafe in his house if he came out.
This, in my experience, is way more common than the fictional “closeted bully.”
¿Eso no sería también un tropo?. Eso sólo reforzaría el estereotipode de qué cualquiera persona heterosexual qué los apoye es un Queer en el armario. ¿No sería mejor qué el aliado siguiera siendo heterosexual en vez de salir del armario?
I hate this trope, because it, without necessarily saying it justifies toxic behavior of the closeted person without necessarily redeeming them over time
But the closeted bully trope by definition is simply a branch of the same tired trope of the secretly pining potential match going out of their way to be aggressive to show affection. It's not a gay or straight trope, but the idea that some abuse is love unable to be expressed in a manner befitting adults; Veronica Mars and Logan Echolls anyone?
Also, the bullies being closeted gays implies that the homophobes are other gay people, and that the straights are bystanders.
what I find weird is, that somehow it is framed as a redeemable quality. It is a sound explanation going with real world psychology, but how did people turn it into an excuse, that it sure as hell is not?!
True, well said
I feel that this trope represents a very small minority of people and not the majority of closed people who are discovering their feelings and how to be themselves in a homophonic society. Honestly the trope is hurting more than helping and my biggest problem is that it bi or sexually fluid coded characters are the biggest “villains” and it harming in how we view bi+ people and queer people overall.
I second that.
I dont know about that as a gayman myself ive never bullied anyone and ive seen alot of stories like this i think guys that bully gays could be gay themselves but not all of them are imo anyways
Yep, I have two counts of girls bullying me in school for being queer who are both now out as lesbians. It is real unfortunately. I couldn't fucking believe it when I saw the girl who made my life hell on tinder looking for a girlfriend. I know I'm just an anonymous person on the internet to anyone reading this but I know from my own shitty experiences that sadly this trope does sometimes exist in real life and it hurts when people say it doesn't.
But there are also a few studies that suggest that often the most vocal and aggressive homophobes are gay themselves, so even though as always, media take it all out of proportion, there is a bit of truth to the trope. What I find worse is the depiction of relationships between bullies and their victims.
Appropriately, homophobes at this point are indeed largely "homophonic" in how near-identical all their arguments and screeds are.
What people forget is that even though you're gay you can still be homophobic. Being gay doesn't give you a pass, doesn't make it any less harmful. Dont sympathise with your oppressor!!!
That’s what happens when writers try to make being gay someone’s entire personality. They forget that there is an actual person underneath of that label. We also don’t talk about the misogyny that occurs within the community and that it’s not just one big happy family.
@@LoveAndSnapple y ese es el problema con la representación de minorías étnicas o individuos Queer en los últimos años. Son tratados cómo adornos qué cómo personajes. Son estereotipos parlantes y andantes sin propósito más allá de ser la visión negativa de los guionistas heterosexuales o la autoinsercion insípidas de los guionistas Queer/LGBT modernos.
Tomemos por ejemplo a Sokka de Avatar: la leyenda de Aang. Inició cómo el chico machista y cómo alivió cómico, pero con el paso de las temporadas los guionistas le dieron un gran desarrollo; pasó de tener pensamientos nocivos hacía las mujeres a valorarlas cómo guerreras y líderes (gracias a Yue y Suki), superó sus inseguridades e inquietudes y aprendió de sus errores.
Closeted bully characters tend to have more depth than straight bully characters.
Unfortunately, bullies often make for very boring, annoying, one-note characters in general-especially male ones. Obviously, being closeted doesn’t really give someone an excuse to be a bully, but homophobia and closet cases take many different forms and most stories don’t explore that well.
Nate from Euphoria is a closeted bully, but I would argue that he’s far more interesting because his internalized homophobia isn’t his only problem nor is it one-note. He’s abusive and sadistic in other ways as well.
Precisely, I hate how their previous bullying is immediately forgotten about, and they usually start dating their former victim. Especially egregious in the case of "Sex Education", where Otis points out that Adam made Eric's life a living hell for years, and he's only just showing remorse now.
The straight bullies are the mean girls trope
@@trinaq Oh I HATED Eric and Adam’s romance, especially when he chose Adam over Rahim. It’s such a bad and unnecessary storyline in an otherwise pretty great show.
At least in Euphoria, Jules sticks to her guns in being hateful towards Nate, despite them both having complicated feelings towards each other.
@@tariqthomas9090 I don't think we've heard the last of Nate and Jules. Remember how he admitted to her that everything he wrote to her as his alter ego was true? I think next season she will get involved with him again.
@@WinterSoldier0315 I hope not. It was going to be basically Adam and Erick 2.0, only much worse. At least Adam wasn't a sadist and even at the beginning of the series, he showed some trace of humanity and empathy, unlike Nate who is almost a "super villain". Putting Jules, a trans woman, with several problems of her own, who has already been blackmailed with her nudes and traumatized by him, would be unforgivable.
Lots of queer people have internalised homophobia but it doesn't always manifest itself in becoming a macho jock character that bullies gay people. I think it would be really interesting to explore more subtle interpretations of homophobia/ internalised homophobia that can come from closeted and out Queer people. And how this can affect other kinds of people other than jocks - for example it would be far more interesting to me to explore internalised homophobia from a more 'nerdy guy' perspective as that's not really done a lot
Now this would be a great new take
Exactly, most if not all queer people deal with internalized queer phobia but its different for everyone. Like for example, in my case I was taught from a young age that if my ideologies didn't align with my mother's (I also have a dad, but my mother's presence is stronger) I would be rejected, shamed and punished with silence, if I curiously decided to ask a "controversial" question, I would be shamed for asking and my mother would make me feel as if I just made the worst mistake in the world, she would take that as a personal attack on her person, therefore I just had to think like her every moment, basically study her thoughts like a text book so that I wouldn't say things out of turn. She wasn't a full of hate homophobe, rather a forgive the sinner and condemn the sin bs, she would talk about her personal friends who were lgbtq so she couldn't possibly hate them, but still if any of us (my siblings and i) decided that we liked a character that was queer, she would guilt us until we stopped liking that. The thing I figured out sooner was my gender (non binary, at age 13), which she despised, she hated that liked other clothes and all of that, to this she was more outwardly phobic of (she isn't hateful about it anymore, but she doesn't take seriously at all, neither for me or my sibling who also is non binary). In case of my sexuality, it wasn't until my sister came out as bi that I finally accepted and realized that I also liked girls (17), this was a pretty active thought in my mind now looking back, but the brainwashing was strong so I lived in denial, I first came out as bi, but turns out I had more unpacking to do bc I found out men aren't really a thing for me, so I came out as a lesbian not so long ago (19). My parents are supportive now, but they still struggle with some stuff and need to be more humble at being allies tbh, sometimes they refuse to listen to us (the actual queer people) and act as if they know it all lol, but well at least both my sister and I get to be happy now. Also shout out, to my very supportive brother, the token straight sibling haha
This so much! This is why we need more queer writers in the room
@StopIgbt Good for you. Won't make you less gay, though. I hope you find happiness eventually.
Yes, exactly! I think a good example of what you're saying - even if it's not comfirmed - is the possible internalized homophobia in Mike Wheeler's case in Stanger Things. It manifests itself in much more subtle ways than we see in the media and it affects a different kind of person than the typical jock, as Mike is a nerd. It is clearly shown to the viewer, and it actually is a central aspect of the show ( outcast, kids who are outside of the societal norms of the 80's ). If you look at his character and all the queer coding closely enough, hid queerness and internalized homophobia are very clear, I think. All of his bizarre behaviors would make sense in this context. It would explain a lot of his illogical actions, why he acts so differently from the beginning of the show, etc... I really hope they did it on purpose, that there is a real intention to talk about this topic, because if so, they are doing a good job.
I like when writers explore internalized homophobia and toxic masculinity in gay male characters, but I don’t really like when they exclusively use it for a villain and it feels like every homophobic person is a closeted gay themselves. Some people are just homophobic and don’t have an excuse. I thought that was why Brokeback Mountain worked incredibly well where as less fleshed out interpretations suck. At least not as frequently as it’s used. It’s almost only ever done to make a bully character look like a hypocrite or used as a way to embarrass or shame them for having internalized homophobia.
I really fucking hate this trope. Even when it’s done well out just feels awful and feeds into the “if he’s hurting you, he must like you” bullshit that we tell little girls, and then get surprised when they are stuck in an abusive relationship.
And honestly, it would be so much more satisfying if the bully was straight, but they learn to become an ally and have a lifelong friendship with the LGBTQ person. Or even better, if when the straight bully learns to be an ally, the gay person goes “you hurt me to much for me to forgive you, but please go forth and be kinder because there are a lot of great people like me.” (And if this is happening in a movie, maybe have the movie end with the gay and the straight see each other across the venue of another person’s gay wedding and they give each other a nod of respect as they celebrate the couple. Just an idea I have.)
+
I love it 💗 edit: the movie idea, I mean
I'd love to see both on screen. There's not enough nuanced in 🏳️🌈 characters portrayals and most times than not, It relies on lazy writing, coddling the straight audience &/or piling on tired ass trope.
I was just saying the same thing. We need better representation of allies rather then redemption arcs where being gay gives them a pass.
Girls get into abusive relationships for completely different reasons. 😁😂😅😂 It's not that simple.
I don’t mind trope by itself but i can’t stand the idea of the gay person that they bully ending up with them. It perpetuates the idea that when someone is bothering you they are just “pulling your pigtails” so to speak. I don’t have trouble believing that they are projecting their own insecurities though.
100% it ends up giving us a lot of glorified couples that really are quite toxic.
Also, I feel like it needs to be said; "pulling someone's pigtails" and bullying them are two different things that get massively conflicted in media. There's a difference between squabbling or teasing someone because you don't know how to say you like them, and making someone's life hell by threats, destroying their property, and God knows what else. The "they do it because they like you" *can* be a harmless trope if executed right *but* it is mostly done awfully in media.
It can happen but it isn’t the normal. And as you stated all is just not forgiven just like that.
I am engaged to my high school bully, but:
1. I hated him even more when I found he was attracted to me. Went out of my way to let him know I hated him.
2(probably the most important one). He put in the work. He dug down deep, came to terms with his sexuality, went on his apology tour as he came out, endured a hellish year for him when he came out and was disowned by his family as a whole and kicked out, yet he still kept trying to improve himself.
3. He took all my shit I put out patiently. He never went back to bullying, and I noticed. I fell in love him for it.
@2freeIvX but still, it's not the same. Like, I don't even like the trope, but even I can see that the dynamic between two enemies is so not the same to an aggressor and the victim of said aggressor. When it's between enemies, usually, it's clear that both parties are standing on more or less equal ground and the conflict goes both ways. And sometimes, it's more like they're just on opposing sides, with opposing objectives and there's nothing personal in the conflict.
But the bully torments their victim and the victim just wants to be left alone. There's a power imbalance and no reciprocity.
I could see where this trope is harmful. It’s like the gay version of “he only pulls your pigtails because he likes you!”
To me, this trope was also a way of making some sort of sense of being attracted to the people who hate you.
That's an awful take, you're basically blaming queer people for a trope that's harmful to queer people
@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774 thanks for that. But when you’re faced with relentless aggression for years and years and you’ve got conflicting feelings you need something to make sense of it. We didn’t have the internet or spaces to find refuge or make sense of it in ways that are rational or perfect.
@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774 They literally didnt say that gay ppl are too mad
@@yeebler i had a headache trying to understand your comment
So like Stockholm syndrome for bullied people?
13:48
"Eric later chooses Adam over a partner who has ALWAYS been kind, sensitive and sexy. And for what reason?"
RIGHT!!? RIGHT!!? Adam is trade! Rahim is boyfriend material! Justice for Rahim! I will die mad about it!
I actually like the fact Eric didn't like Rahim just because a guy is nice sensitive and sexy doesn't mean there's anything wrong with someone for not being attracted too them,ultimately eric and rahime had nothing in common and the show highlighted religion being very important to eric so the moment rahime revealed himself to be atheistic who sneered at religion that kinda emphasized they weren't compadible. I'm still not big on eric x Adam but pushing the idea you should date a guy just because hes nice and hot is also fairly toxic.
@@alorapendrak2925 I don't think the issue was that Eric wasn't attracted to Rahim. I think the issue was that Adam was going through a redemption arc and Eric was his reward. The entire history of Adam & Eric up to that point consists of abuse, sex and few nights of breaking things while talking about their feelings. Their relationship was exciting but only because it existed in a bubble. After Eric chose him (in the following season), it became clear that they didn't have much in common and Adam wasn't ready to be anyone's boyfriend. What they had was superficial. If Eric were more mature, he would have recognized that before leaving Rahim at the point in which they were actually getting to know each other.
I read an interview once with Dan Levy where he talked about the lack of homophobia in Schitt's Creek was a genuine choice on his part as the series creator.
Yes, homophobia is real and prevalent, but there ARE people in the world who are supportive and loving, even closeted people who just haven't come out yet. Which of course brings me to Patrick.
Patrick is closeted well into his thirties and has only straight relationships, starts a loving, supportive relationship with David, but then we learn, still hasn't come out to his parents. But TWIST! his parents are heartbroken not because he's gay, but because he didn't trust them to still love and support him! 😭💖💖💖
We often only see the closeted person as homophobic, or their reason for not coming out is because of their homophobe parents, or their only in straight relationships to try to get rid of their homosexual feelings.
Yet just another reason why I love Schitt's Creek 😊
This is a really tricky trope, largely because there’s a lot of truth. Of course not all homophobes are in the closet- but being in the closet, that recipe of repressed desires, constant doses of internal and external homophobia, the confusion and self loathing, constant lying does frequently manifest as the homophobic bully. So the trope itself isn’t the problem, its the way media plays it out and the way we receive it.
For one, it has to stop being seen as an excuse for their behavior. Especially today, media has really focused on the sympathetic bully, the bad guy with a tragic past you can relate to. Which is fine, except that they skip the step where they say “having a rough past doesn’t mean you get to be awful to everyone else”, which leads audiences to sympathize with the character and then excuse their behavior instead of holding them accountable.
And two, stop having every homophobe be a closet case. Yes some, even a good portion are, but not all. There are lots of paths that lead a person to homophobia yet the only one that gets the spotlight (in most cases) is the homosexual homophobe.
The answer isn’t to kill the trope because these are peoples stories and burying them solves nothing. We have to restructure how this story is told and the purpose behind telling it.
👏👏👏👏👏
This.
It’s in my opinion that a lot of tropes we see as problematic are not inherently problematic. The problem arises when the writing is sloppy and the characters are not fleshed out properly.
I just wanna say that Dave Karofsky from Glee was one of the few examples of this trope becoming more humanized and sympathetic. He started off as a bully, but changed his ways, became a genuinely better person, and apologized to the person he bullied. He also is shown to eventually accept his sexuality but in one of the most heart breaking episodes of the show he is outed at school, thereby living his worst fear and attempts to kill himself. He is one of the best examples of character development that we get on that show.
Which is why I’m irritated that Santana was used in the thumbnail… she wasn’t a bitch bc she’s closeted & homophobic, and she wasn’t ever nasty to Kurt or Blaine SPECIFICALLY bc they’re gay. She was an equal-opportunity bitch and I love that for her
And he never ends up with or even becomes super close friends with Kurt, who was frequently the main target of his violent bullying
Even if people still wanted to write this trope, it would at least feel fresher to see it done differently. Not everyone with internalized homophobia becomes a violent bully! Internalized homophobia is multifaceted and nuanced. The most common thing to do is misinterpreting your emotions and pushing yourself as far away as possible from anything related to it. What I think would be more interesting to analyze is the (at first unexplained) discomfort that one feels surrounding the topic of sexuality. But movies don't really show that...
Totally agree
I have an idea for a story where there’s a closeted homophobic bully who kisses his victim drunk at a party, claims it’s a mistake that he doesn’t intend to do again, and at this point we’re being lead to believe he’s in love with the guy he’s bullying.
But plot twist, when he is crowned prom king he kicks the queen off the stage and gives the crown to his fellow bully friend in a grand romantic gesture that they’d been planning for days, then they publicly kiss on the podium, and after this point the two continue to bully the protagonist after the fact.
Another idea is that the homophobic bully doesn’t hide it from the protag and actually catches him alone to tell him exactly what he’s doing and that he wishes he could stop but can’t because sympathizing with him publicly would make him the target of bullying, too.
Or a third idea, the homophobic bully bullies a gay student because the student is femme with a lisp and therefore he thinks that rejecting him makes the LGBT community look better, and the bully is actually openly gay himself and has been trying desperately to appear as a respectable face for gay people to the homophobes around him.
Or maybe the bully is actually not even consciously homophobic, and really wants to have an actual gay friend to relate to because the straight people around him don’t really get the whole gay thing. His redemption arc starts when he realizes that the boy he’s bullying is actually gay, making him the only gay person he knows at his own school. This results in him trying desperately to make a friendship between them work.
I also have an idea for a story where the homophobic closeted jock isn’t even slightly mean to the gay people around him actually tries befriend the boy he secretly likes rather than bullying him, but due to his stereotypical ideas of what a gay person is, ends up pushing the guy away and has to confront his biases.
@stop Igbt you must have a lot of free time, congrats 👏
I always felt like this trope was a way for writers to somehow blame queer people for homophobia transphobia. Because if the only people who can be homophobic are secretly closeted, then it erases the broader societal unacceptance of queer identities and places blame on the self hatred of queer characters. It also erases the fact that there are straight people who simply are homophobic. Overall I’ve seen people respond to this trope as a way to dismiss homophobic rhetoric as a form of self hatred when in reality a majority of people still have homophobic biases.
Nobody watching these movies is thinking that only gay people hurt gay people. My God, this comment section is stupid...
I'm a little surprised they didn't bring up Mickey Milkovich from the US version of Shameless for this trope considering everything he went through and how he changed
I'm surprised too. That show went on for so long so you can definitely see his growth more clearly.
Oh yah, very true! I forgot about Mickey and Ian. I hated both of their dads. They were both pieces of shit, but because we also got things from Frank's perspective, they framed him as slightly more sympathetic, especially towards the end. But I'll give him that at least he wasnt homophobic and accepted Ian for who he was. Whereas Mickey's dad is a whole other story. He tried to sabotage their wedding lol!
i hate this trope, but at the same time it happened to me. i was bullied at school, and called everything under the sun. then again i was also a geek, so was bullied for that too. yep, 1990's school days, at an all girls school (good times). i was confused about what was going through my head, but because i wasn't feminine, and more tom boyish, and into "boys things" like comics and anime, as well as being an introvert. i stood no chance
then years later, met one at my bullies, and she was a bully as in she bullied everyone. i wasn't her only victim. she was a nasty pierce of work. the kicker was, i came out a year after i left the school, when i was at college. when she saw me, we bumped into each other club called the Candy Bar, in Soho years later
she was so casual, and acted like it we were long lost friends, and "Yeah, i came out in college, took me a while.(me too actually) We could meet up and catch up sometimes". I told her to her face to "Go F**k herself"
kudos to her for finding her truth, but that doesn't excuse her crappy behavior, and her coming out doesn't change the damage she did to her victims and there were many.
That was an unexpected ending 😂
@@boatymcboatface4120 I mean that's how ut should end 🤷🏻♀️
The thing I really dislike isn't really when the bully turns out to be closeted, but they're redeemed bc they're gay for their victim. Bullying is literally abusive harassment, and now it's being turned into a romance bc gay and gay= they have to kiss. It treats a very real issue of gay men being discriminated against into a romantic trope. Nothing wrong with angst every now and then but lot of the lgbtq+ just want a more wholesome(?) queer romance that doesn't have to remind them of their trauma.
Tbh, it’s a very true thing. They may not necessarily be a violent bully but they often loudly participate in gay bashing, homophobic jokes or surround themselves with such peers
They do, but this trope is over exaggerated to the point of where it’s basically negative representation in a way. Especially the way they get a redemption arc 9 out of 10 times.
@@edgytypebeat781 what is the problem with them getting redemption arcs?
@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774 The issue that it shows that you can be rewarded for such fucked up behavior. Like for example, Monty is a literal RAPIST and got a redemption arc before he died. He should’ve went to jail but no he did not.
@@agnessofiacastrocarvalho774
It's a problem depending on how it is done especially if they're the only homophobic character in the show/movie. If the only real homophobic representation comes from closeted gay/queer people it kind of creates this picture that homophobes aren't nessecarily bad people (or really homophobic) they just haven't come out yet and their hatred is coming from a personal place of insecurity and shame when in actuality most homophobes are just assholes. Most of them aren't queer either.
@Taylor Parker I was just adding my personal anecdotal confirmation to their explanation is all
Heartstopper is the only LGBTQ related series I've seen till now that breaks this trope! Only pure, queer joy ✨
Actually not totally correct. Ben is obviously a closeted bully, he is just a side character and not part of the main ship.
@@hellolimitless9432 he doesn't get to be with Charlie in the end unlike the stereotypical trope, and the viewers aren't forced to sympathize with him. Heartstopper is breaking boundaries
you havent watched a lot of lgbt media then if you think heartstopper is the only show that subverts this trope
@@neon2319 Yes you are right, that’s why I said it’s not totally correct. Ben do not end with the person he bullied and don’t have a redemption as of now but he still embodies the closeted bully trope even if technically he does not bully Charlie in public.
@@Ray03595 you could very well give suggestions then! I did mention it was the only series I had seen.
In American Beauty, I had assumed Col Fitz killed Kevin Spacey’s character because he was afraid he might out him and possibly out of feeling hurt that Spacey told him that he had the “wrong idea.”
Ppp pop pop play play B p
Yeah. I also think Fitz still believe Lester is gay and the he only got rejected coz Fitz like his boys young, like Ricky. So that probably hurt him a little more.
The Glee one really infuriates. Kurt didn't deserve to be involved of a such terrible side plot.
And him outing the bully is not right it is a full on Hollywood bubble view of acceptance and no backlash which happens still.
I agree, but that stuff was the only part of Glee with any emotional depth at all (which was a bigger problem, I guess)
They didn't even address that he was SA by Karofsky during this storyline
@@NA86737 When did Kurt out his bully?
@@NA86737 he never outed karofsky though. if anything, the writers made it a point for kurt to repeatedly say he wont ever say a thing to anyone about the kiss or karofsky's sexuality. the entire side plot is shit and never should have been done in the first place, but kurt never outed anyone throughout the show. maybe you're thinking of finn outing santana?
I like the scene in "The Rage in Placid Lake" where Placid, the weirdo protagonist, is cornered by three bullies, and then tells one of the bullies that he knows his secret- he's gay but can't tell his mates for fear of them rejecting who he is, so that leaves him in a state of constant frustration and causes him to lash out at those weaker than him. The other two bullies are shocked, and the third bully admits that, yes, he is gay. The bullies say they understand and accept him, hug him, and then grab Placid and start to beat him up. Placid protests, saying that he was the one to make Bully #3 confront and embrace his sexuality, and Bully #3 says, "I don't let my sexuality define who I am" before uppercutting Placid in the stomach. Beating up Placid wasn't a defense mechanism due to repressed homosexuality, the bullies just didn't like Placid because he was a weirdo.
i love this more than anything rn and i NEED to watch this
Never let your sexuality get in the way of your bullying! LOL
I often find the closeted bully to really be an attempt to give the "villain" a redemption arc and the creators assume that we will like this bigot if they are gay or we'll excuse their behavior. Cheryl Blossom from Riverdale is an example of this. She barely changes even after coming out, still continuing to be a trash person.
People also insist that when people don't get along with someone it is somehow "sexual tension" which is the farthest thing from the truth. This has led to so many people thinking it's okay to get in a relationship that is toxic.
I also think these tropes don't leave room for a bully to actually become an ally that truly accepts queer people. We need more of these examples in media than we do a bully coming out as gay. Not to mention, the closeted person doesn't always have to be "gay" or "lesbian". What about bi/pan, trans, and ace/aros people? Much of the closeted bully seems to have this monosexual feeling of entrapment when in reality they could fall anywhere across the spectrum.
I thought this trope was originally an anti-bullying trope. It used to be about comedy through hypocrisy. If a bully is trying too hard to show what a big tough man he is, for a long time it was funny to see a punchline that he is secretly gay or something else. This also seems like a variation on the "mistaken for gay" punchline that was on a lot of sitcoms in the 1990s.
It is.
Perhaps Mac from Always Sunny does this trope somewhat well. He’s homophobic but doesn’t really antagonize gay people most of the time. He’s one of the protagonists so he’s gets to be a more well-developed character than others. And he eventually gets to come out, “find his pride” in one episode and become a more fulfilled person.
I mean internalized homophobia does exist but it as not as common or extreme as this trope suggests.
You can say this ab any trope
I'm in the middle about this concept because tbh in real life it's something that IS very real but also we both shouldn't use outing them as a comeback to their homophobia while also we shouldn't justify them.
Truth is other fellow queers should stay as far away from these closeted homophobes because the baggage, problems and violence they will bring to you is not the best energy to have around.
@Nutjob Tommy Reacts that makes so much sense
@Nutjob Tommy Reacts like what in common?
@stop Igbt Is this you announcing you are a closeted gay? Aw, sorry but I already got a boyfriend
@@octabodemes yikes are you schizophrenic because who are you talking to 😂
Can't believe Mickie Malkovich wasn't included as he touches all of this points and he happened long before Sex Education. Through the episodes so much happens between him and Ian, not only does he hurts but is also hurt by Ian, we see his relationship with his father, his struggles in his relationship that are not just about being closeted and even after he comes out we still see him struggle in other ways. In the end he comes out as a multi-dimentional character.
Honestly , I really liked the way this trope was used in Sex Education. I like the idea of Adam , a teenage boy who has repressed his bisexuality because of his upbringing , becoming a bully to Eric because he feels threatened by how openly Eric is able to express his sexuality and subsequently trying to become a better person and becoming more emotionally vulnerable. I think that characters or even people like Adam who have been ingrained with hatred can become better people with the willingness to do that and with external support. I've really liked to see Adam grow because unlike the trope where a person who is homophobic becomes completely open to their identity seemingly overnight , Adam works throughout season 2 to get comfortable with being bisexual. I think that Adam and Eric breaking up was inevitable. Eric has been out and proud since he was 13 , Adam on the other hand just came to terms with being bisexual and only comes out to his mother by the end of season 3. They were at different comfort levels from the beginning.
If anyone has reached this point , I would like to say that I hope that they don't try to put Adam and Eric back in a relationship in season 4 because it , in my opinion, would keep them both from growing further as characters. I hope they still remain friends and that Eric stops kissing other boys when he already has a boyfriend.
As a LBGT bullying survivor, women are often told "he bullies you because he likes you" (including me). That pisses me off, too. Glee is particularly toxic, because the character ended up dating the person who brutally assaulted them.
I'd also love you to cover more bullying tropes in the future as bullying is a social issue that needs more discussion.
When I saw the power of the dog, after 10min of movie I said “don’t tell me the man is mean because he’s a closeted gay, so cliché”. Yup.
I totally agree with you. Though tbh I also appreciated the twist ending more for this reason. I thought I was watching the soft and sensitive gay boy guide the closeted homophobic bully through a redemption arc, how predictable. What ends up happening instead was so much more satisfying. Lol
Yeah, well the ending kinda destroys this trope. The young gay boy murders his abuser.
@@theitalianalien8477 I don’t think the only trope of homophobic people are closeted gays. There are homophobic people that just hate anything that’s different from them.
Adam from sex education became very loveable and had the most character Development.
I feel like one decision Boys in the Band made that was INCREDIBLY well done (in both the original and the remake, by the way, please check out both) was to never reveal if Alan was straight or not. Both would make sense in the time period considering Alan's assault of Emory (an out and proud queer man) and his refusal to admit that he was in love with the college friend. If he was straight, of course he would be telling the truth, and would naturally be disgusted at any implication or suggestion of homosexuality given the general consensus and actual anti-gay laws at the time, but if he WAS on some level queer, I doubt he would have admitted it to anyone, let alone himself, due to the internalised homophobia he'd probably face. A very smart choice makes for an interesting ending and one that isn't common in most queer media now.
I didn't even read into it that Nate was closeted. (Sure Jules called him similar to his dad but I thought that was her just taunting him.)
But I'm seeing so many things about it that maybe I need to rewatch to analyse.
To be honest, as someone who is very queer, I kinda like this trope. First, it helps me see examples of people being able to change sometimes- like Adam and the like. Second, it’s really funny to see homophobes desperately down playing their homophobia when being told that it might be a sign they’re gay 😂 definitely problematic but also makes for some compelling characters and stories when done right
Agree, and is usually funny to me seeing gay characters trying too hard to come across as straight
"Can we talk about the giant elephant in the room?"
"Your sexuality?"
Ngl, Santana will always remain my favorite lesbian character on tv. I know she was mean but still, as a lesbian myself, I loved Santana playing the character she played.
Im always so confused when people say Nate from Euphoria is closeted. He loved JULES a trans woman, that still makes him straight...
If you pay attention in his episode in season 1 and all his trauma with his dad sex tape, you will see Nate have conflicts about his sexuality. This guy is bi, pretty clear.
@@gabriellacardosopaiva417 I think seeing his dad doing gross acts from a young age obviously gave him bad trauma and affected his sexuality, his own dad gave him sx abuse nightmares, that's doesn't make him bi or gay.
Exacty. It's funny how people claim that they see trans women as real women until a man is attracted to them. Suddenly, the trans woman doesn't count as a real woman to these people? It seems transphobic to say that a straight man must be gay, bi, or pan because he's attracted to a trans woman, because it implies that they still see trans women as men, or just not fully female. That's what I think is very tricky about people saying that Nate is "clearly in the closet" for being attracted Jules. She's a trans woman. You can't say you recognize trans women but then also say that men who are attracted to them are gay or bi (unless they guy is actually bisexual). Either you see trans women as real women or you don't.
@@gabriellacardosopaiva417 I don't buy it. I mean, maybe but for me it mostly seems like he has some se*ual trauma especially around male bodies because of his dad's tapes. He never seems interested in men but he seems awful lot uncomfortable with them. I think he internalized the mindset of his dad and his scenes in the young age, and now adopted a mindset of "dominate or be dominated at all cost". Which is why he is aggresive to people so often, uses everything he has to have power over them. It's pretty clear he's terrified of his dad/his dad dominating him, which is why he despises him. Would also explain why he's so obsessed with femininity - it's non threatening to him on the surface.
Tldr: more than him being closeted, I think it's him being uncomfortable with men due to trauma.
You are heterosexual if you only have sex with the opposite sex and trans people are not the opposite sex they are a different variation in sexual orientation and identity. Nate is not heterosexual.
I actually kinda like this trope, but only on paper, because most attempts at it lack nuance and make it seem like violent hate crimes are justified and it sucks. But I'd take more nuanced characters who lash out on others because of their own insecurities.
I think Billy Hargrove was a good example of someone lashing out due to his own abuse and insecurity though its not a closet gay bully trope. But it was quiet similar to this.
I feel like a character taking out there self hatred on others could be done well, but more often than not, it's just a shoe horned effort to redeem the character.
@stop Igbt ...k
Is this how you act to recieve attention on the internet? You should probably put down the phone if so.
@@chip672 who are you replying too..
@Ham Y there was a commenter that was basically saying some homophobic nonsense. There comment was deleted, so it probably looks ridiculous
A really interesting version of this trope, a version I'd argue that was done right, or at least well, is Ragh Barkrock from the D&D actual play series Fantasy High. Ragh is a bully from the start, but he bullies pretty indiscriminately, mainly the people he deems 'losers' - not the queer members of the party. He's popular and on the football team, and it's later revealed that he has a crush on his football teammate and fellow bully, as opposed to one of the people he's bullying.
Ragh is an interesting character, and a big part of his character arc, especially in season one, is realizing that he's gay, and moving on from his prior bullying tendencies. I think what makes him a good character is the fact that while his bullying technically stems, at least in part, from his insecurity regarding his sexuality, he doesn't seem to be actively homophobic, just sort of confused and angry.
I'm a very petty person , and I personally don't like to see anyone who bullied me for any kinds of reasons ending up find acceptance and happiness，so I personally do not like this trope that much but it exists for a reason. So… party I guess.
Well the bullies are the ones that are accepted and popular lol 🤣
I don't hate this trope (I don't hate any tropes) but this one does get a little eye-rolling after seeing it for the millionth time. This was an interesting Take. But is the answer really to just tell "happy" gay stories? Doesn't really seem like it addresses the issue. Surely there's a way to tell this kind of storytelling conflict with more nuance? Or are we asking to get rid of this storytelling conflict altogether?
I don't think the call for happy gay stories is about the removal of conflict. Just the mean-spirited, toxic conflicts and overdone tropes. I grew up seeing gay people in toxic relationship, being abused, sick, dying etc. with very little counterpoints. Those happier and diverse stories definitely serve a purpose too.
You know one thing I liked about Sebastian Smythe from Glee, before he was 'redeemed'? He's just the worst type of person and it's unrelated to him being closeted, he's open about his sexuality and about being an elitist, racist, classist, sexist jerk who enjoys bullying others and at no point do they try to use him being closeted to justify this behavior, he's an asshole because of how he's raised and who he is as a person. I actually preferred him as an antagonist, because sadly it's realistic there are plenty of upper-class/ popular LGBT+ folks who work against their lower-class LGBT+ counterparts: Milo Yiannopoulos, Dave Rubin, Caitlin Jenner, Alice Weidel, Arielle Scarcella, Blaire White, Andy Ngo hell it's nothing new look at Roy Cohn the guy who sold people out to McCarthy and Reagan. Cohn was gay and Jewish, and he sold out LGBT+ people and even Jewish people, his own religious group to McCarthy. Cohn was just the type of person who would've probably sold out anyone except maybe the people he loved, because he was the type of person who always wanted to be the closest to the top, that's a failing of being a Republican and being an asshole. The quilt really undersold how much of a bastard Cohn was.
Bro I WAS a closeted bully and I feel ashamed for things I said and did in high school. I wasn't even out to myself yet, had a lot of "weird experiences" I was too scared to unpack and find out I was "one of them."
I didn't bully anyone because I had a crush on them though. I feel like that really oversimplifies my experiences. I need others to prove to me that it was a choice, I think. I needed to see someone else get fixed or something before I could feel safe enough to figure my shit out. Growing out of that was a rough experience and at least I'm still alive to feel cringe about my old beliefs.
As someone who had internalized homophobia for most of my life I always related to this trope, not because I was a homophobe but because I never was. The closeted homophobe was like a cautionary tale to me. No matter how depressed, suicidal or self hating I was I NEVER took it out on the LGBTQ+ community. I was an ally who couldn't come to terms with what I was
Happy Pride Month! Also, it’s my birthday today so this is an opportunity to say that I love this channel and what an awesome Video Essay as always!
happy birthday
I live in India, particularly village. If I come out as a gay , my income and influence over people will be destroyed so I m sure I will choose to being in closet.
Yeah but that's different;your life and livelihood depends on being closeted and I'm assuming hopefully you're not toxic nor a bully in any way.
THIS TROPE GETS ME SO MAD IT LITERALLY HAS ME QUITTING ON SHOWS!!!! Like I'm sorry you expect me to care for this arsehole?! NO SIR!!!
Rahem was done so filthy on Sex Education. Eric should've chosen him
I'm so sick of this trope because yes it is true that some homophobic bullies are closeted but it's not as common as people think it is. Some people are simply homophobic
I think the issue is less about this type of story being told, and more about how *often* it is told and how it's romanticized.
I can totally see a very frightened LGBTQ+ kid being learnt homophobia from birth to the point that it hinders their path towards identification, or living in such a homophobic place that being a notorious homophobe actually protects them (as in David Karofsky's case, for example). I know it's happened to queer people and I think it's great there are some stories about it because everybody needs representation and internalised homophobia is real.
The issue is that the stories mostly focus on making the homophobe end up with their victim, and not really on self-acceptance and becoming a better person for the sake of it. It's all very superficial.
Another issue is how *often* it recurs in the media, to the point that the homophobe is almost always a closeted gay. To the point that my own mother is convinced that *all* homophobes are actually closeted gays. And it seriously diminishes her (and other people's) understanding of how deep homophobia runs, how it affects us, and what homophobes really want to do to us.
With less romance, less systematization, and more portrayals of actual homophobia (+ portrayals of homophobes who learn to be allies, because that's also what society needs, not that picture that if you soften up towards the queers then you'll necessarily be queer too), I think the trope would be mostly fine.
I probably wouldn't mind this trope so much if the bully at least got with someone other than the person they tormented. Like if this troupe existed but we got to focus on the victims perspective of trying to forgive their bully as they recognise them as becoming a better person, maybe also showing that you can forgive people for your own peace of mind but that doesn't mean you think what they did was okay or that you have to like them. THAT could actually be interesting and quiet cathartic.
But no, every time they end up falling in love and sometimes they die for it. 🏳️🌈Good gay fun🏳️🌈
i dont think its a bully someone you like type of thing. its a "i wish i could accept myself like you do so i will try to make you feel afraid and shameful too" type of thing imo
Wow, It is funny how now, that you mentioned it, I can see how common it has become. Tv & Movies can really be very weird in their depiction of reality.
This trope may be overused but it is very true. My conservative Muslim stepdad was a self-loathing homophobe and he molested me and made my life a living hell for fear that I would out him. Even though I am a gay man myself, I have never had sex with another man because of how dirty and gross I feel. I hate what patriarchy, toxic masculinity, and self-loathing do to queer men. Our world teaches us to hate ourselves. The pain builds up so much that we either begin to unleash out on others or ourselves. Glad that asshole is out of my life.
From my own experience I think, this trope is reflected in bisexual men. In my hookup-phase there were a lot of men that wanted to experiment with me but didn't want this bisexual side of them outed. They usually only have sex with girls, sometimes they have a girlfriend or are maybe even married. I think that has a lot to do with the fact that bisexual men are (in contrast to bisexual women) much less accepted. From my own experience I know that there are a lot of men out there, that have sam-sex attraction but don't act on it or don't out themselves because they are also attracted to women, so they just go with the socially easier option and this constant surpressed part of their sexuality may very well lead to violent behaviour.
This is the ‘they treat you like crap because they like you troupe’ on steroids.
The first character that came to my mind when I read the title was Montgomery from 13 reasons why.
4:07 "The Imitation Game" really?
Not a good example of a written story that shows closeted gays as tragic. Since its based on a real situation and not a made up story.
The thing about this trope is that it doesn't really succeed at explaining the reasons for homophobia, it just pushes the question one layer forward. If homophobes are *secretly* gay and are *repressing* their sexuality because it makes them hate themselves, why would their gay sexuality make them hate themselves and want to hide? Because society is homophobic, with closeted homophobes in it or not.
I would like to see the take do a video about other forms of bullying. Particularly when main characters abuse the working class and it's played for laughs. Like pushing past the hapless receptionist who is only trying to do her job or yelling at a member of waitstaff and it's supposed to be funny. It isn't funny it's classist down punching.
oooh yes this would be interesting
This reminds me a little of Free Guy
@@jackdavinci I really liked that movie.
Did anyone else have to close their eyes everytime clips from the bathroom scene of 13RW came on? I will never ever watch that scene again. To this day seeing images of it makes my stomach turn and I feel genuinely in pain when I see it. I just can't handle it.
I see why we need trigger warnings! That's why I can't watch "Django Unchained" or "Schindler's List!"
@@darlalathan6143 I watched Django Unchained once.... Never again. Its too violent for me. Feels like torture porn. Trigger warnings are super important for reasons like this.
The GOP is this trope made real.
Lindsey Graham, Mark Foley, Larry Craig, Madison Cawthorn, Roy Kohn
This is a major reason why the trope continues. There's an entire political party proving it's existence every year.
That's probably where the trope came from! It's called "You Are What You Hate," and covers every marginalized group. Strom Thurmond was a racist with a biracial daughter from an interracial affair with his maid in his youth. J.K. Rowling once wrote to another TERF that if she had been born a Millennial, she would be transitioning as a trans man. Most TERFs are "butch" lesbians or 2nd wave "political lesbian" (man-hating, possibly asexual) feminists from the '70s
I was the closeted homophobe back in middle school and I never targeted anyone specifically I was just an ass who didn't know how to cope
The funny thing about this trope is that it's very real and I've seen and heard stories like this many times in real life.
Riff in Spielberg’s West Side Story is exactly like that with Bernardo. Tony Kushner and Mike Faist really showed that well.
I have a disdain for this trope, the only time i enjoyed it was Santanna Lopez on Glee
Naya was just that girl!
As others have mentioned, it's a huge oversight to leave Shameless out of this conversation. The Ian/Mickey storyline humanizes the bully without trivializing the victim's experience, accumulates complexity over multiple seasons, and gives us an unflinching look at the brutality of violent homophobia. The couple experience many highs and lows in their relationship, and both men are written with lots of specificity and nuance. I know the researchers/writers of this channel can't possibly watch and comment on every show/film, but I have no idea how they missed such an interesting and obvious reference.
I couldn't help but notice that female closeted homophobes were rarely mentioned in the video. For example, Cheryl from Riverdale was making homophobic comments about Toni and surprise surprise, the two of them were dating for a very long time and poor Toni was stuck in a toxic relationship. Also, Alison from PLL made Emily feel so ashamed of being a lesbian and then they ended up getting married in the end (luckily they've gotten a divorce in PLL The Perfectionists).
I've definitely been bullied by a closeted homophobe, but that was only one. The other twenty were just horrible straight people.
i wish that more media showed just people having internalised homophobia, just.. because. like why does it always need to stem from some mega gay-related trauma. it shows that a lot of these are made by straight people cos it doesn't show how difficult it is to just FEEL different and excluded and straight people just don't get that. like i didn't have homophobia really around me but that doesn't mean it wasn't really difficult to come to terms with being gay.
I'm pretty much tired of all cliche tropes presented in the same pattern...
Bad boy good girl, closeted homophobe, ...I'm not even remembering which are the ones I got tired of ughhhhh
I see that I need to rewrite a couple of villains in my comic book scripts!
It can be true but it shouldn’t be the assumption. I ended up in a 13 year abusive relationship bc of conditioning from tropes like this. My bully became my lover straight out of high school. I thought the abuse was from his self hatred. Yes, he was the trope stereotype… but it wasn’t because of that for why he was abusive. He was just abusive. My dad was abusive to me so because of that I accepted this. I fantasized my relationship till it almost led to my death and I ultimately had report him to the police after being put in the hospital after the last beating I took. He went to prison for two years and I moved away bc I feared for my life.
This trope explains to me, today, the extremely weird and sometimes unacceptable fetish I see so many gay guys having on toxic "alpha" narcissists on IG and Twitter (findoms and so, disgusting).
*Looks around at the entire Christian Right*
...I'd say it's true to life.
I'm interested to see everyone's opinion on the trope.
Me too, I've been waiting on them to cover this toxic trope, and they finally have.
This is horrible
Thoughts on the trope? It's generally wishful thinking.
Even "Turning Red" hinted at this trope with Tyler being a secret fan of the boy band
DISAGREE with your analysis of jules and nate.
Nate cannot be called gay because of his attraction to Jules - Jules is a WOMAN. She's a girl, and he acknowledges her as such. Nate has shown no attraction to men ever, and to say that he has repressed homosexual feelings because of Jules is transphobic towards her - if he IS attracted to Jules, he's a man attracted to a woman. He's still straight, maybe with a distorted view of sexual identity but still straight, because Jules is a trans woman.
If you want to argue that Nate is gay, use the d pics on his phone, not jules. I know the euphoria community hates Jules but you cannot devalue her identity as a trans woman.
Yes to all lf this! I at first assumed that he is bi, because Maddie confronts him about that, because lf the dpics, but not because of his attraction for Jules. Wasn't therr also a scene in season 1 where he was watching other guys run a marathon? I thought it was generally implied that he had na interest in men, but I could have just misunderstood that because I'm generally new to understand and be considerate towards trans people...this type of stuff fliws straight over my head.
I don't watch the show but what's they're reason to hate a trans character that's on the receiving end of bullying?
@@nunyabiznes33 Jules in the show isn't on the recieving end of bullying at least not outside from the first time she is confronted about it at the party (like the video above), but she is the protagonists love interest, and because the show is narrated by the protagonist we sympathise with her point of view. Jules' initial behaviour is misleading because the protagonist is head over heels about Jules, while Jules really is still hung up on a guy and then also after getting intimate with the protagonist sleeps with another girl, and in the second season they're officially a couple, but then Jules cheats on the protagonist. She is disliked for her personality, not for her gender.
@@corneliahanimann2173 And by protagonist, do you mean Nate or some other guy?
@@nunyabiznes33 I mean Rue, the girl that has her issues wirh drug addiction. That drug addiction part is kinda important because Rue treats Jules like a replacement drug because she gets her euphoria from loving Jules now, and that is also a problem, because Jules realises that Rue only stays clean because of Jules and Jules hesitates to get serious with Rue because she knows that Rue has developed a codependent relationship with Jules.
There *are* closeted and formerly closeted people that genuinely started out as bullies and/or homophobes! However, it's a lot less common and a lot more complicated than in most Hollywood depictions.
In my experience yes this is true
The same people who made my life hell in school were the same ones chasing my cookie when we finished school
its definitely a thing ,cause they fill the need to over compensate for their true desires
we need to do away with it but i guess since they always get the fine toxic ones and then reward it with the piece of ass he wanted to smash from the start. makes me wonder why its still a thing in 2022
I really like the trope compared to anyone. I'm just irritated that it's treated as an excuse for someone ' behavior (fr, why would they date their victim ???)
@stop Igbt why are you telling me this ? Idgaf it has nothing to do with the video bigot
I love you guys.
Thank you for seeing us. We gotta do better. Also when we stop obsessing about others and focus on ourselves. That's clearly what drives others
major reminder: the Hayes Code has heavily caused this trope to exist, since by it's definition, "no non-straight could go unpunished" in media. We're only recently (the last 2-ish decades) getting the chance to have happy gays/non-straights in stories that get to make their way to the bigger budgets. (this is addressed in the essay)
I think it's a difficult trope to grasp. Monty was eventually made out to be a character we're supposed to sympathise with and love, but are we just supposed to ignore that he brutally tortured a boy? Is this what Euphoria is going to do with Nate?
Another problem with this trope is it perpetuates the idea that all homophobes are secretly closeted gays and obfuscates the reality that some people are just hateful bigots, who are nasty to others because they are different; there isn't always a deep down dark reasoning for hate.
This is used so much, I used to think I HAD to go through a self-hating phase, and I felt somehow not as qu//r for not going through it. Quite harmful.
Sex Education is such a gift to humanity tbh
this makes me appreciate heartstopper all the more