I got told to call the tower only once. The controller told me to do something, I did it, and then he asked why I did that and told me to call the tower once I was on the ground. I did. The controller apologized to me. He said he listed to the tape and he had misunderstood my position report so he asked me to do something that he didn't really want me to do. As I said, he apologized and thanked me for dealing with the situation he had created. It truly isn't ALWAYS bad when you have to call the tower.
I'm a corporate pilot and atc makes more mistakes typically than professional pilots since they don't have the responsibility of operating the aircraft 1st, protecting the souls on board 2nd and communication with the tower is 3rd. Nice to have them but in the end the captain of the aircraft has the most responsibility of them all and yes sometimes we're wrong but believe me I catch more atc mistakes than professional pilots. Such a big difference in responsibility between the two.
@@normanwilmoth7404 Just layman here. I remember seeing statistics that atc people are one of the highest suicide rates or all industries. Never heard that about pilots. So for me it seems that they must have some sense of responsibility.
I love how the pilot of Vistajet 868 never lost composure or acted unprofessionally towards the tower controller - he remained calm, complied with the ATC instructions and never once had a hint of any attitude about it. Awesome!
*in my career as ATC, I had hundreds of VFR departures picking up IFR airborne; in a lot of instances, this helped out both us and the pilots* *that woman talks way way too fast, I don't care how busy she is, primary rule is "CLEAR CONCISE TIMELY communications"*
Yeah that was just WAY too fast for a "danger - hold short" and then she follows with a question. if it wasnt for the subtitles id be unable to understand it. I dont even think the pilots Really *HEARD* her first part. especially when ur in the middle of things. she SHOULD have ask'd to Confirm after they only replied with "uh..22"
I am 56 years old and have noticed as time goes on that this chipmunk gibberish is becoming more common. I am ashamed to say, that on three different occasions over the years that I became so frustrated that I let the f bomb fly and ask if it was faster to say it clearly once or repeat it three to five times?....I was talked to a couple of times because of hurt feelings. My response was, peoples lives may depend on these transmissions and it should be taken more seriously....and that was the end of the conversation, no one had anything more to say.
@@louiszierlein5814 *Agreed Louis, when I would have new trainees, I would emphasize that if they didn't understand you after the first transmission, they should A) slow down, B) change the words they use into others that mean the same thing. No one cares if you can speed talk.*
Lets be clear that the pilot also lied his ass off afterwards though. All he responded with was '22'. But it's also *really* bad luck that both *runway* and *gate* number were 22.
Agree with Kelsey. That ATC should've also insisted they clearly confirmed a readback of hold short of 22R, a crucial instruction of a runway incursion point from the other pilots was an error on their part
That's WHY you read back the instructions. Talking fast, regional dialects, garbled transmissions, etc... If you read back the instructions then if there is a disagreement, then it becomes apparent.
“I have a number for you to call…” probably makes a pilot’s stomach lurch. Very tempted to say it to the two pilots sitting across from me right now, just to see their reaction (I’m watching this video from the C gates at GEG.)
@@johnathansaegal3156 That pilots want to get home too honestly really helped me. I don't like to fly, but I've gotten better with my anxiety and watching Kelsey's videos help.
@Cindy Tartt it's weird cause I have a fear of heights, but I feel totally at home when in a plane. So that's why I think I have a fear of falling, because I know there isn't anything I can do to accidentally fall out of a jet lol
He is so down to earth with using similes to situations I understand versus trying to picture things for which I have no context. Kelsey manages all the explanations plus be entertaining and humorous too🏆🏆🏆
I remember several years ago coming in to land at Dubai airport and we are within a couple of hundred feet and next thing the plane starts vibrating and the engines throttle right up and I’m thinking pants what the heck is wrong 😳😳😳 after we had climbed away from the runway the pilot came on the PA and he apologised for the vibration and explained that “some idiot air traffic controller cleared us to land with someone still on the runway” I could tell he was not very impressed with ATC 🤣🤣🤣
The hold short story of Delta 253 and situational awareness reminds me of United 1448 at Providence Road Island in 1999. They made a wrong turn in the fog and wound up on the active runway and were just barely missed by another plane taking off. When United 1448 radioed the tower saying someone just took off and they are on an active runway the controller didn't believe them. The controller ignored United and cleared another plane for take off. That other plane listening declined take off twice after the controller kept clearing him for take off. I would like to see you do a video on that event.
In the place I live there was a similar incident, in fact, it's known as the worst plane accident in modern history, two planes where involved + a wing of a third one and part of the error and mistakes were due to the fog
In 1977 in Prague, one ATC cleared a plane for landing and then - his shift was finished - failed to inform the ATC taking over his sector about the plane on final. The new ATC cleared another plane to take off from the same runway. The landing pilots noticed the other plane at the last moment (it was a dark winter night) and managed to lift just enough to "only" tear off his rudder; their own plane lost the landing gear, hit the ground hard, and the fuselage skidded off on the snow. The crew evacuated the passengers due to the fuel leaking everywhere and led the people away from the wreck. Then they waited 40 minutes to be rescued because no-one realised they were there; eventhough some people walked over to the airport building, the guards refused to believe them and let them in! There were no deaths and no injuries (at least no major injuries), so the communist government covered everything up. The incident/accident didn't even make the news.
@@hekkoCZ I know this! My parents heard about it only 10 years later when visiting Prague (and the town in which they were born, Cimelice) when the regime fell and they could reunite with their families. An incredible event with no injuries! Thanks for reminding me, appreciate it.
@@eatmypanart Are you aware that literally everyone knows about Tenerife? You describe it as if it's not common knowledge to anyone and everyone who's even remotely interested in aviation disaster history.
I mean, if you don't do stupid things you've nothing to fear from them. They're some of the most professional people around. Talk straight, don't lie, be professional and they're an ok bunch. Certainly better than other branches.
Back in the 90's I used to travel doing trade shows. At the time, free breakfast buffets were not in every major hotel. I would find the hotel with a free breakfast buffet closest to the airport. So I always ate near flight crews. It got to the point where I would bump in to the same people in different parts of the country, and started having conversations with them.
The world can be really small and have weird things happen. A handful of yrs ago we were leaving Orlando from a family vacation. We were at some place like McDonalds in a LONG breakfast line pretty early in morning. My dad struck up conversation in line not lengthy but general chitchat for just a bit with guy in front of him. Fast forward an entire day of driving, several restroom breaks and a lunch break and multiple states north/northwest of FL we stop at a fast food place for dinner. My dad takes some grand kids in to use bathroom and they stand in line to grab dinner for us all. There is a line but not terribly long my dad notices the guy in front of him looks vaguely familiar and after several minutes of noticing the other guy looked a few times as well my dad says hey you look sort of familiar… a few mins of chitchat no we are both traveling etc etc it dawns on both of them that they were in line together for breakfast earlier that morning and now again for dinner like an entire long day of driving away. My dad and kids come back to cars like you won’t believe what just happened. Like WHAT are the odds?!?
I really appreciate how you break down the "boring details" as you call it. I've listened to live ATC at my local airport, and find they talk so stinkin' fast that I can't make out what they are saying most of the time. Watching your vids is a great help for me in learning ATC lingo. Hopefully one day, I'll be able to do that without scratching my head and wondering what the heck they just said. Keep it up!
As a controller, a foreign registered Global Express, operating under a call sign, requesting to stay in the traffic pattern vfr would be a massive red flag for me to clarify. That’s exceptionally unusual.
Agreed, spanish ATC here. I have been working at LEJR TWR and currently at Seville ACC for more than 20 years. When a Z flight plan (departs as VFR and changes to IFR once airborne) it’s a priority request intentions. You may expect any rules change at any time.
I think this controller was new. KBFI has a lot of flight instructing traffic and it seems a classic case of expectation bias, combined with the inexperience of the controller
From what I've been able to find by googling, the crew requested to depart from 32L rather than the active 14R runway for performance reasons* and was told by ground this required a VFR departure. But somewhere along the way something went very wrong in communication resulting in ATC ending up thinking they wanted to do lap in the traffic pattern and land again before departing for Athens while the crew believed they were departing VFR as requested and expected to continue IFR to their destination. I haven't been able to find what exactly the full exchange with ground was, though a forum post included this snippet: BFI GND: ... you want to do a VFR pattern and then depart IFR VJ Dutch pilot: Affirm GND tx. difficult to read due to strong background n/voices in the TWR; pilot requests 'say that again' BFI GND:... once you do the lap and the land, you'll be departing south IFR, correct? VJ Dutch pilot: Affirm Evidently the crew didn't pick up on GND saying "lap and LAND", whether due to expectation bias (it presumably didn't even occur to them that ATC could possibly be thinking they'd want to do such a thing), non-standard phraseology, or due to difficulty reading them. * From a PPRuNe forum post: "I've just run it through APG using the current metar (2100z) and its obstacle limited off both runways, with 32L giving you 2000lbs more than 14R. So it's quite reasonable that to get to a "comfortable" fuel level they wanted 32"
@@xhstan Any person holding a pilot’s certificate can be called a pilot. If he called himself a Captain, that would likely be incorrect. He’s evidently a First Office. Copilot is an antiquated term not used in the aviation industry.
Yeah, but the default is not "you can enter the runway unless you explicitly heard 'hold short,'" the default is "you _can't_ enter the runway unless you explicitly heard that you're cleared to enter it."
Calling the tower reminded me of a time in flight training my instructor and I were come back to the airport north bound from kpuw to ksff and we were instructed to make a right base for 22R. We called to confirm what we heard. The controller corrected himself and then told us to call the tower upon parking. My instructor went inside and called as I finished the shut down check list. The controller wanted to just apologize for the mess up and thanked us for the correction.
That's wonderful! My son is definitely going to rap to this: he loves this channel and also good rappers (I believe these are non-mumble rappers. I know very little about this :) )
Deal with atc all the time and I constantly get annoyed with there quick chatter that's hard to understand. I'm slower and precise with my words then they reply back like a video on TV that's in fast forward. I want to tell them so many times please be clear, professional and pronunciate your words in a slower manner so everyone can hear you plain and clear. Most Atc in my opinion rush to much with there speech but that wouldn't be the case if the shoe was on the other foot and they were flying the aircraft instead of sitting in a lounge chair just talking with no risk to there personal life, aircraft or the people on board.
You know ever since the Tenerife and the catastrophic results ATC and the volume of planes inbound and taking off would be more of a priority and more attention to these details. Every time I see close calls I think of that accident. The scary thing is as we all know the possibility is still real today.
Some notes on the Seattle snafu: 1) The pilot had already received his IFR clearance on the ground. At the time of departure, his route and schedule were fully cleared by all echelons of ATC. 2) The jet could not meet the minimum climb requirements of the active runways 14 (due to terrain/obstruction clearance). Therefore the jet had to depart opposite direction, runways 32. 3) This against-traffic departure was approved by Ground, with the caveat that it needed to be VFR, and they could resume their IFR clearance airborne. 4) The ground controller said that they'd coordinate this with tower. 5) Obviously, the ground controller forgot. The IFR flightstrip that ground had prepared was never passed to tower. Tower had no idea that there was any IFR clearance for the jet, or why the heck it was taking off the wrong way. 6) I assume that the tower controller has seen weirder at a busy GA airport like that, based on the non-asking-for-clarification. 7) The lynchpin comes when the pilot says "departing to the north destination Athens", he did not say "we have IFR clearance". He still thinks tower has a flightstrip somewhere around, and that stating the destination will enable tower to locate the IFR flightstrip. 8) Tower says "not gonna give you your IFR clearance airborne". There again seems to be some terminology confusion here, because the pilot should have said "I don't need a new clearance, we already have IFR clearance, find our strip!"; clearly the pilot misunderstands "not gonna give you your IFR clearance" as "we won't let you depart VFR and then resume the previous clearance", as opposed to "we won't create a new clearance and routing from scratch" which is what tower meant. 9) "Aren't you able to negotiate?" further demonstrates the pilot's misunderstanding of USA terminology for IFR, he thinks he's talking about resuming the old/current/active plan, whereas tower thinks he's bitching about how controllers should bend over backwards to make new clearances airborne. The query about landing, and the response to it, further distracts both of them. It's clear to me that 1) the proximate cause of this fuss was the ground controller having one of the worst brainfarts of their life, and completely failing to give tower the active IFR strip, as well as brief tower about the unusual departure that went with the IFR strip. Ground deserves the most blame for this incident. 2) The deeper underlying issue, which caused the relatively-benign proximate cause to spiral out of control, was the british pilot's unfamiliarity with USA IFR terminology and/or slang. I'm not a pilot, and don't know what is an international standard vs USA standard, but there was clearly all kinds of miscommunication about how exactly IFR works between the pilot and tower. Divided by a common language indeed. Probably the pilot bears more blame than tower, but tower had plenty of opportunity to ask for clarification about the strange circumstances (tho again, I assume that such non-asking is a result of tower having seen weirder before). Probably the best that could come out of this is if international and USA phraseology about IFR clearances could be standardized. Or maybe the pilot really was just an idiot, but I'm inclined to think a structural gap exists here.
Might want to read the 7110.65 4-2-8. You can’t clear someone IFR, suspend IFR, then clear them again IFR. Also, the local and ground controllers are next to each other in the cab. When the ground control switches an aircraft to local, they hand them the FPS regardless of IFR or VFR. There’s almost a zero percent chance that something like that wouldn’t have been coordinated. I’ve had pilots take off VFR before and try to pick up IFR in the air going to a busy airport and there are times when we just can’t do it due to airport saturation. I think this pilot just didn’t want to wait and thought he could be slick and pickup in the air. He’s also extremely bad at clarifying what he actually wanted to do. Also, you are right about the Phraseology thing. I was always taught with foreign pilots to use only prescribed phraseology in accordance with the 7110.65. American pilots you can have conversations with if need be, but someone like Aeromexico, Emirates, Lufthansa, etc. you need to speak only proper phraseology unless absolutely necessary to have a “conversation”
I was once cleared across active runway....I seen the other plane rolling and stopped just as ground control went crazy...this was in my solo learning phase. That was a good lesson, I carefully look everytime.
Yep, read back all hold short instructions AND include your call sign. Pretty sure that's a requirement. This is on the controller because she didn't get the hold short read back but cleared another aircraft for takeoff.
This guy ROCKS! I subscribe to a lot of channels, but out of all of them, on a list of people I would like to sit down and have a beer and a conversation with.....he's definitely at the top of the page. I wish the best of all things to all who read this......
The Delta 300 incident. That controller was talking faster than the terms and conditions guy at the end of adverts. It's no surprise those pilots missed the hold short instruction. Controller takes a 50% claim in the fault here, the other 50% being the Delta 300 pilots. They should have caught that the other flight was cleared for take off on the runway they were about to cross.
Delta 300 wasn’t on the same frequency as the Delta flight that was clear for takeoff. If you listen closely, the takeoff instructions were a different voice. You are correct, though, that it’s a 50/50 blame. All hold short and runway crossing instructions are required to be read back-which wasn’t done here.
@@tomcorwine3091 Also such a crucial information like holding short of an active runway should not immediately be followed by a relatively unimportant question for the gate number. I could imagine if ATC did not immediately ask that question the pilot would have had to read back to hold short or if he did not understand it correctly the error would have been obvious.
Lately I have seen so much death, hopelessness and peoples lives getting ruined by the choices they had taken. Thank you for being you, hearing you say "coming up" is one thing that makes me know that for the next couple minutes I'll be away from all that. Thank you
Some controllers also get in a hurry and talk like they have a mouthful of marbles, which can make things very difficult to understand. When in doubt, ask for a repeat... and never be afraid to tell the tower to slow down their delivery.
I’m always amazed that pilots can maintain situational awareness, mainly because I can’t go to the supermarket without GPS. I have a good friend who’s now a commercial captain and, after many tries, we finally coordinated our schedules so he could fly my family home. Knowing my own lack of navigational skills, I actually asked him, “You know how to get there, right??” HNL-JFK
It's fairly easy to maintain situational awareness once you get comfortable flying. Unless it's in a simulator. At least for me. I don't have the necessary auditory and visual clues for situational awareness in simulators. I always tell instructors this before getting into a simulator, and they usually (not always) look at me like I'm stupid. Yeah, go ask doctors if you can maintain situational awareness without all the needed inputs. LOL
Same! I’m not stupid, but for some reason special awareness, unless I’m drawing it, is beyond me. My brother is a hobby pilot and I’ve looked at his maps. Then away because that much confusion sends my ADD off.
@@PetThePeeves I have TWO post-graduate degrees, became a VP at a billion dollar corporation, and I STILL can’t figure out where I am, whether in a plane or a car. It’s just something I was born lacking. But I have perfect musical pitch, and other people find that astounding. Everyone has his strengths and weaknesses.
I'm terrified of planes but I love to travel, your videos are helping me get over my fear and understand aviation safety to where I do not believe I will blow up in the sky or suddenly burst into flames!
@@thebigcnel oh it has. TWA 800…things can and do go wrong but it’s exceedingly rare and usually the result of negligence or pure accident. I’ve had a fear of flying most of my life and had to travel by plane a lot for work and the biggest freak outs I’ve had were over turbulence which isn’t even what takes planes down.
The major cause of the runway incursion was ATC’s lack of communication discipline. She raced through the clearance and never got a read back. Delta’s only fault was not asking her to repeat since they clearly didn’t understand the first part of her transmission, but other than that they complied with the clearance as they had previously been given.
Delta was definitely at fault for not giving a readback, though of course that doesn't make them _solely_ responsible for the incident. But I feel that was probably the biggest and most easily correctable factor in the web of causes. Readbacks help not just because they confirm your understanding to the controller, but also because they can also help make you better understand what you've just heard and more reliably execute it. Simple acts such as saying aloud what you think is happening or what you're going to do, or even just pointing at something you're supposed to be paying attention to, foreground gaps between your "system 1" or "fast" thinking processes' expectations of the situation and the actual situation. In other words, had the pilot handing the radio done a "readback" even just to himself, without the microphone keyed, the runway incursion might have been avoided as he might have realized from his own readback what he'd actually heard, rather than what the system 1/fast thinking part of his brain thought or assumed he'd heard. The same principle is the reasoning behind the pilot verbal cross-checks described by Kelsey and in some comments in this blog. (PF says, "Clear to cross runway 12L"; PM responds, "Clear to cross runway 12L.") I wonder how that went in the cockpit on that flight, if indeed it happened at all. This principle applies widely, by the way, not just in aviation. You can look up "rubber duck debugging" to see how computer programmers use the verbalisation technique to help resolve consistency errors between internal mental models of what the computer is doing and what the computer is actually doing.
Video 1 is the reason I love jfk Steve ATC , he would always refer to the private jets as the 1 percent. He would be professional with the crew of the private jets , do everything as required and professional , but would always warn the heavy’s especially, “give way to 1 percent and remain vigilant” he was a legend . Would love to see you react to some of his ATC funny interactions … he is a educator for ATC now
These people are experienced and it's really hard not to let it go over people's minds. Overconfidence just kicks in with time and it can be disastrous.
I know I'm not a member of the club (pilot) but the ATC order to hold sort is garbled at best, still the pilot should have asked for clarification and asked politely if ATC could drop the speed at witch they speak to under one thousand words per second. I think they both deserve a talking too.
Its actually much clearer in the headset in the real world. But you are correct, the FAA actually states in AIM 4-2-2 c states to speak in a normal conversational tone.
Kelsey is also right in saying she should have asked the pilot to repeat the instructions when he didn't especially if she knew she was using that runway for another flight taking off.
No sorry, incorrect. Once you have been flying a while you really tune into what is being said and it does not sound garbled. What Luke stated is correct. The pilot straight up lied, and there was no positive CRM going on in the flightdeck. What you hear downloaded from LIve ATC is far more distorted than reality. I have listened to my own transmissions on that website and have difficulty believing it is me talking.
My experience, good ATC person will immediately state to read back hold short instructions... and/or its on the ATIS. Also, I developed a habit that I always do now regardless if I got a clearance to cross a runway or not and time has passed as I approach the intersection or finally get to the intersection, I call ATC and confirm that I'm still clear to cross. To me, that's now just a knee jerk reaction. "Happy Tower, Cessna123, finally approaching/at M, just confirming, am I still clear to cross 28L, and hold short 28R before continue to parking?" Simple. Saves everyone grief. No deal for ATC (exceeding 3 or so deals per some rolling period they get fired, and no deviation for me (whatever a deviation gets you, and I'd rather not find out). Everyone keeps their job, me my flying privileges, and everyone no accident. I see in my mind coming to a runway about to cross and I'm already breaking or earlier approaching, finger on the mike calling up. I mean, what if they forgot? They're human. And ATC has done some goony stuff before. What if I thought I was clear, but wasn't? Death and destruction. And if anyone gets snippy of radio congestion or extra "work", they can go fly a kite ;)~ Flying isn't a spectator sport; it requires active listening and speaking.
JFK is a busy place, but the controller handling Delta 300 sounded like she'd had about 15 cups of coffee in the last hour. Yeah, pilot error, but her 600 words a minute broadcasts were not helping.
I guarantee she was written up for this error, and the pilot will not get deviated. This is why controllers will get snippy with pilots who get complacent with runway readbacks. Even if you read it back but drop your callsign it is ATC's fault if the pilot does anything wrong. I have had perfect readbacks where the pilot will just taxi straight onto the runway. Rarely with professional pilots but it still happens.
I'm a student pilot and made my obligatory training landings at a class D airport.... throughout my visit there- I screwed up a bit with the radio calls and the controller started to talk to me like I was a 3rd grader. I appreciated the clarity from him but left with my tail between my legs :)
I was flying a 172 out of SYR years ago, and heard/witnessed a runway incursion involving a USAir DC-9 and a company F-28. SYR has two runways 10/28 & (then) 14/32 (now 15/33). The DC-9 was instructed to “Taxi rwy 28 on Alpha, hold short of rwy 32” which they read back. I’m sitting on the opposite side of 28, finishing my run up, and look up to watch the DC-9 blunder right out into 32! Simultaneously, a company F-28 was cleared to position & hold on 32. At this point the ground controller went off (rightfully) “USAir ### you were NOT cleared to cross that runway! You were instructed to hold SHORT of 32 on Alpha!” One would think the DC-9 would’ve hustled across, and apologized. Instead they made a 180 in the middle of the runway, replying “ok, but we don’t see WHY.” The controller blew his stack at that- “you don’t see WHY?? When you finish your unauthorized 180, you’ll see a company F-28 off the left side in position and about to roll!!” Not knowing when to shut up, our hero in the DC-9 replied “well, they better not do it now, or there’ll be a hell of a mess...” Yes, they were given a number to call. Love to know what became of that crew.
With modern voice codecs and compression there is no reason why the radio audio quality has to be so shit. Other than the cost to modernize all the planes and towers with digital radios.
The recordings are trash because they're made from a single receiver operated by a HAM somewhere near the airport. The real ATC voice quality is generally much better.
@@Psi105 Have you heard the average voice codec used in two way radio? Analog AM generally sounds way better. The issue here wasn't audio quality, it was a combination of a very fast speaking controller and arguably inattentive pilots, plus lax radio procedures (not insisting on readback).
I remember hearing the full audio including ground clearance a little while ago. I believe they filed the IFR clearance on the ground, but requested a different runway due to ?obstruction at end of their given runway while on Clearance - clearance advised them to take off in the pattern then they would be cleared for the IFR. There was miscommunication between tower, ground and pilot leading to this situation! It's a shame the full audio is not in the liveatc archive anymore :/
I know the feeling, I was a passenger in a Piper Warrior with a 17 year old pilot who nearly taxied us straight into the path of a taking of Jumbo jet at Melbourne Int Airport. The tower was screaming at him to stop, he hit the brakes so hard we nearly had a prop strike. Within seconds of stopping this huge jet just went thundering past us.
ATC usualy speaks fast but that lady was like machine gun. And her biggest mistake was asking the gate right after the most important instruction. Human brain usualy focus on the last thing , and because it was a direct question he missed the first instruction.
I have never commented on your videos before, but just wanted to say you have great content. I work on the railways and no one knew that I had an interest in aviation. I spoke with with a colleague yesterday who also had an interest. He said that I need to watch Kelsey and Petter's channel. I said I already do. Keep up the good work. Take care, Jeff
Some of these pilots and controllers talk so fast and don't enunciate very well. It's not surprising that mistakes get made. If the radio has a bit of static, you might miss something if the person is talking fast. Seems like they should talk slowly and clearly at all times.
I really hate it when people try to act like the other person was 100% of the issue and they did nothing wrong, at least acknowledge you could have done something better too; props to the pilot for taking all responsibility, even though it wasn't all him
Thanks for the video! I’m a student pilot and constantly learning and improving my ATC communication skills 😅. Takes some getting used to but these kinds of videos drive home the value of making sure you’re on top of it and crystal clear about the instruction you have been given.
@@74gear It's unfortunate that you've used this particular thumbnail for this video, showing an aircraft crossing a runway and causing an aircraft on short final to commence a go-around. The actual photo/screenshot you've used for the thumbnail, does show an aircraft crossing a runway, but this particular incident features an aircraft that DID in fact have a clearance to cross this runway. In future, could I suggest that you don't use a picture of an aircraft that WAS crossing the runway with a valid clearance to do so, but then trying to use it as a thumbnail example of an aircraft crossing the runway without a clearance to do so.
VistaJet 868 DID say departure. He also asked if the controller would like him to hold 1500 for the downwind. Typically pilots will say they are doing patterns or doing touch and goes, etc. But this is a perfect example on miscommunication which is responsible for many crashes and most wars. Also after takeoff the first turn in the pattern is called "crosswind" then downwind, base, final, departure.
GREAT DETAIL GIVEN on what's going on. Gives you something fun to do in your down time that we non-pilots who still love the idea of flying can enjoy the insights and mayhem!
I also think tower shouldn’t be asking a non-relevant question, like “what’s your gate number” when they’re also issuing a critical hold short clearance. Secondly, tower should be able to see where the plane is parking without asking, for example phx ground can see your gate. Thirdly, at these busy class B airports they’re giving control instructions while you’re still slowing through 100 knots, and it’s high workload. They would eliminate expectation bias by just waiting 5 more seconds to give critical control instructions once the plane is slowed.
In JFK the tower controls ground traffic until the plane passes through runway 22R (which is closer to the terminal). They need to know which gate the plane is going to so they can put them on the correct taxiway before passing the plane over to gorund control.
Exactly. That's the key here. She should have split those two elements in two different messages. First the command (hold short), wait for the readback, and then ask about the gate number. Never in the same message. I hate to do it because it takes two much on the frequency on a very busy airport, but I give information about birds or anything, wait and then clear for TO/landing or viceversa.
Back in the day when TWA was still around, my sister and I were taking our first flight as unaccompanied minors from Seattle to St. Louis to visit family. We had just touched down when we took off again at a steep sideways angle. Turns out there was an unauthorized plane on the runway and we would have crashed into them if the pilot hadn't been so awesomely prepared to abort the landing. We had to spend 45 minutes circling around to get back in landing position, but we're all still here to remember the incident. Yay, pilots!
In defense of the pilot who erred in crossing the active runway - the controller was talking so fast I think it would be easy to miss such an important message. I could easily understand her question regarding the gate number because she seemed to deliver this question more slowly. "Hold short..." was the more critical message and I think she should have commanded this more slowly and deliberately.
Hi Kelsey ... Does ATC not realise that if they speak so fast, there are going to be errors ... ? More power to you guy for understanding these ATC controllers ... Some of these ATC people really need to slow down ... !
12:15 If you ask me, the entire fault is on the ATC. She fired out that instruction like a Barret Jackson auctioneer and asked the pilot a question in the same breath. Even playing it back multiple times, I still found it difficult to clearly pick up on the "hold short." He responded to her question about the gate number and didn't repeat the instruction about the hold short. This should have been a red flag for the ATC, as she should have been waiting for him to repeat that instruction back to her, and he didn't. That's the whole point of repeating it back, to ensure that they heard you correctly and that they are executing the instruction.
You should talk about it during a month and not a week. When you are a international freight pilot you go out on a trip from 2 to 10 days. But he actually has a lot of rest, probably half a month working and the other half at home. I don’t really know how Atlas work but it’s most of the time like this
From what I've read in another place, the aircraft needed to take off opposite to the active runway direction for performance reasons. This wasn't possible to do IFR for traffic reasons, so the crew had negotiated with the ground controller to depart VFR and pick up the IFR clearance in the air. Somehow ground didn't communicate this properly to the tower controller.
We call that a readback/hearback error and from the FAAs perspective the controller hold the same responsibility for causing that incident as the pilot. It's easy to do though. I dont work at a facility nearly as busy as JFK and I can only imagine how easy it is to think you heard something that you really didn't at somewhere that busy.
I've seen this constantly while doing service work at KSEA. I've even seen some planes that are being towed by mechanics almost run into taxing aircraft. If you're ever in the Seattle area again let me buy you a beer for all the great content you produce!
@@ParadigmUnkn0wn Saying it was his fault or IRRG on Coms might have saved his job However something is missing in the audio and it is rather obvious, otherwise this is not supposed to happed at all. Even though sadly it does.
I never worry about the call the tower phrase. They got one job in a lounge chair no risk to there life. If I catch a screw up from atc well then I take control since I'm the federally licensed pilot not them and I take control and do what I know Is right. I have my life, the aircraft and souls on board the responsibility that they're safe. Pilots and passengers risk not going home because of errors not atc. By federal law I'm granted the powers over atc to do what is necessary to secure all those responsibilities. Basically I will override atc guidance if it's not in my best interest safety wise. Like I said they go home safely at the end of the day a pilot has ten folds the responsibility on his shoulders like his life and passengers life for one and the aircraft which what I fly most can't even dream to afford.
@@normanwilmoth7404 Fortunatly for me, I’ve yet to be told to call the tower. One day before I retire however, I am dying to tell a rude controller, “let me know when you’re ready to copy my number down for a possible CONTROLLER deviation!”
@@colt10mmsecurity68 typically a call to tower is just a controller trying to cover his butt from upper seniority to place blame on the pilot from my experience. They make plenty of mistakes because they talk so fast without taking a breath and it's annoying. I have been rode a few times and made them repeat themselves multiple times when they speak to fast. If it continues then I basically tell them to slow down so all of us can understand one coherent sentence you're even making. I won't tell them copy and repeat back until it's spoken plain and clear. Burns there ass up but they work for us, not for them. They're simply guidance which does help and I respect but ultimately it's all on the pilot to bring the people and aircraft home safely! If there's a tower error then I'm going to override them if they're not correct and report to the tower who made the error. Tower reports can go both ways so be bold and stand your ground if you're in the right report them if they're wrong. That's the problem is the tower workers don't get called out enough but will quickly call you out to cover themselves and have this attitude that they don't make mistakes. They make way way more than a professional pilot but most pilots are to passive and let tower people slip when they won't let you slip if you make a mistake. One way road with those guys and gal's.
I worked in a traffic office the radio had contact with ops,ramp,catering,traffic and engineering the first day in the traffic office I missed a lot of the calls but after a short time I knew what was going on in all departments so I agree that experience makes you more aware of everything that is going on with your airline and the airport
In my aviation law class we were taught not to call the tower after a possible pilot deviation without first consulting an attorney. Then, if you choose to call the tower (you probably shouldn't), don't identify yourself by name or confirm that you were the PIC of the aircraft in question.
So True on the free breakfast, I used to work for AA, I was an Agent/Manager, I traveled on business Alot. AA would have you setup a profile of what you like when you Travel, my first ✔️ was under Free Breakfast, now that I don't work for the airlines any longer I search my hotels and only pick Free Breakfast 🥞
This channel is growing on me...Subscribed...Really liked how Stern that ATC woman was...She seems to really care what the heck can go Wrong and was not taking any Crap from the Pilot
So true about things slowing down as the comfort level and familiarity increases. Going through that now, finally starting to offload stuff to the left brain and it's such a relief.
Kelsey, was that you confirming last second go around instructions at O'Hare on July 1? Turkish seemed to be taking its merry old time getting off the damn runway.
I flew helicopters all my life and once when I violated an airspace with an old GPS and was on the wrong frequency after I landed I was told to call the tower. The controller was very pleasant and I didn’t argue I knew what had happened and he didn’t get me violated which he could have. I did learn a good lesson from it though.
We had a rule at my most recent company requiring both pilots to call out to each other "hold short runway xx" "cleared to cross runway xx" "lights on, clear left" / "clear right" "clear of runway xx" / lights off... Not as annoying as it may seem, as there have been some close calls, even in recent years.
Readbacks help not just because they confirm your understanding to the controller, but also because they can also help make you better understand what you've just heard and more reliably execute it. Simple acts such as saying aloud what you think is happening or what you're going to do, or even just pointing at something you're supposed to be paying attention to, foreground gaps between your "system 1" or "fast" thinking processes' expectations of the situation and the actual situation. In other words, had the pilot handing the radio done a "readback" even just to himself, without the microphone keyed, the runway incursion might have been avoided as he might have realized from his own readback what he'd actually heard, rather than what the system 1/fast thinking part of his brain thought or assumed he'd heard. The same principle is the reasoning behind the pilot verbal cross-checks described by Kelsey and in some comments in this blog. (PF says, "Clear to cross runway 12L"; PM responds, "Clear to cross runway 12L.") I wonder how that went in the cockpit on that flight, if indeed it happened at all. This principle applies widely, by the way, not just in aviation. You can look up "rubber duck debugging" to see how computer programmers use the verbalisation technique to help resolve consistency errors between internal mental models of what the computer is doing and what the computer is actually doing.
As a subtitler who sometimes works on stuff like "Aircrash Investigation" and the likes, getting explanations of the lingo like this is quite helpful. I have to translate it into language the regular viewer will understand.
That ATC with her call out to the delta was so fast at her read that it was hard to catch esp with the static on the call, but as you say both that ATC & the Pilot made errors.
There is no static on the real calls, ATC and planes are equipped with much better radio equipment. All ATC you get on the internet ist recorded by amateurs in their homes, it does not reflect the real quality of radio calls.
@@ronik24 no, but jfk would be a very busy place and both would be equally distracted as if the recording was this jumbled. In real time you only get one chance to catch what someone said. Not making excuses for them, but still good to keep in mind when watching recordings. It’s a lot easier to follow along when you can rewind and nothing is at stake.
As a small plane pilot training for what was then called a COMM/IFR, my CFI and I flew out of Honolulu Intl. which was a red star airport and made for some interesting radio comm. The ATCs in the tower put the pro in professional. One of my favorite commands from them was after being cleared to land, hearing my call numbers followed by "expedite approach," repeated back by me and after looking over my shoulder and seeing four 747s sequenced behind me meant one thing. No flaps and firewall it. I loved it. We aimed for just past the numbers (having trained on a naval base with arresting gear equipped runways it was second nature) and first taxiway off. To this day, I still love the no flap landing. And I kinda think the controllers liked having the puddle jumper getting down and getting off their runway as quickly as possible.
I got told to call the tower only once. The controller told me to do something, I did it, and then he asked why I did that and told me to call the tower once I was on the ground. I did. The controller apologized to me. He said he listed to the tape and he had misunderstood my position report so he asked me to do something that he didn't really want me to do. As I said, he apologized and thanked me for dealing with the situation he had created. It truly isn't ALWAYS bad when you have to call the tower.
true and they don't want to clog up the comm channel to apologize etc.
I'm a corporate pilot and atc makes more mistakes typically than professional pilots since they don't have the responsibility of operating the aircraft 1st, protecting the souls on board 2nd and communication with the tower is 3rd. Nice to have them but in the end the captain of the aircraft has the most responsibility of them all and yes sometimes we're wrong but believe me I catch more atc mistakes than professional pilots. Such a big difference in responsibility between the two.
@@normanwilmoth7404 Just layman here. I remember seeing statistics that atc people are one of the highest suicide rates or all industries. Never heard that about pilots. So for me it seems that they must have some sense of responsibility.
You shoulda told the controller to standby to copy a phone number for possible controller deviation
@@normanwilmoth7404 Yep to all you said. A pilot's mistake can get himself killed (and his pax). A controller's mistake can get him a reprimand.
I love how the pilot of Vistajet 868 never lost composure or acted unprofessionally towards the tower controller - he remained calm, complied with the ATC instructions and never once had a hint of any attitude about it. Awesome!
Agree. The more of these videos I watch, the more these British Pilots demonstrate superior professionalism and character.
Pilots are badass. I can't tell you how many times I have just been in awe in their demeanor no matter the situation. They are rock stars to me.
Superior professionalism 🇬🇧👌🇬🇧
I don’t know how I got to this channel and I surprisingly can’t stop watching.
@Cindy Tartt and hes a 747 pilot :D
Hi Nancy. Kelsey is addictive. In a good way :) When you can laugh and learn at the same time, it's can't be bad.
I'm literally in the same situation lol
bout to become a pilot from watching these
@@roderickcampbell2105 haha he is the reason I'm going to become a pilot someday
*in my career as ATC, I had hundreds of VFR departures picking up IFR airborne; in a lot of instances, this helped out both us and the pilots*
*that woman talks way way too fast, I don't care how busy she is, primary rule is "CLEAR CONCISE TIMELY communications"*
Yeah that was just WAY too fast for a "danger - hold short" and then she follows with a question. if it wasnt for the subtitles id be unable to understand it. I dont even think the pilots Really *HEARD* her first part. especially when ur in the middle of things. she SHOULD have ask'd to Confirm after they only replied with "uh..22"
I am 56 years old and have noticed as time goes on that this chipmunk gibberish is becoming more common. I am ashamed to say, that on three different occasions over the years that I became so frustrated that I let the f bomb fly and ask if it was faster to say it clearly once or repeat it three to five times?....I was talked to a couple of times because of hurt feelings. My response was, peoples lives may depend on these transmissions and it should be taken more seriously....and that was the end of the conversation, no one had anything more to say.
@@louiszierlein5814 *Agreed Louis, when I would have new trainees, I would emphasize that if they didn't understand you after the first transmission, they should A) slow down, B) change the words they use into others that mean the same thing. No one cares if you can speed talk.*
As a layperson let me just say ATC and ground are amazing because good lord it sounds like a nest of angry murder hornets over the radio sometimes.
Lets be clear that the pilot also lied his ass off afterwards though. All he responded with was '22'. But it's also *really* bad luck that both *runway* and *gate* number were 22.
Agree with Kelsey.
That ATC should've also insisted they clearly confirmed a readback of hold short of 22R, a crucial instruction of a runway incursion point from the other pilots was an error on their part
Yup - the controller should have also noted that he didn't repeat hold short..... all charts will say "read back all hold short instructions."
Honestly, she spoke so fast about hold short, I’m not surprised the pilots missed it.
that's a normal speed for experienced pilots and ATC to talk to
@Godzilla Hårddisksson I changed idea, ATC should talk more slowly lol
That's WHY you read back the instructions. Talking fast, regional dialects, garbled transmissions, etc... If you read back the instructions then if there is a disagreement, then it becomes apparent.
@@yosyp5905 one reason for me to never become a pilot😂
Im watching at home and unly understands half of most radiocoms i hear on youtube (like steveo or flightchops). Idk how those people do it, gg.
"Call the tower" = "Go to the principal's office"
“I have a number for you to call…” probably makes a pilot’s stomach lurch. Very tempted to say it to the two pilots sitting across from me right now, just to see their reaction (I’m watching this video from the C gates at GEG.)
"Go to the principal's office" = Dive out the window and walk home, lol.
It's funny - I don't like to fly, know nothing about aviation, but love Kelsey's videos because they're so darn interesting and I like his humor!
@@johnathansaegal3156 - Oh I know - I mean I have flown before, just an irrational fear, guess stemming from my fear of heights! Lol! ✈
@@johnathansaegal3156 That pilots want to get home too honestly really helped me. I don't like to fly, but I've gotten better with my anxiety and watching Kelsey's videos help.
@Cindy Tartt it's weird cause I have a fear of heights, but I feel totally at home when in a plane. So that's why I think I have a fear of falling, because I know there isn't anything I can do to accidentally fall out of a jet lol
Same here @Barbara Lynch - only, I've never flown in my life! [edit: so far, anyway!]
@@Tricia_K Maybe someday you will! 😊
As a non-pilot, I love your explanations, they really help me understand what's going on. I hope you get that fourth stripe soon, you deserve it!
He is so down to earth with using similes to situations I understand versus trying to picture things for which I have no context. Kelsey manages all the explanations plus be entertaining and humorous too🏆🏆🏆
I remember several years ago coming in to land at Dubai airport and we are within a couple of hundred feet and next thing the plane starts vibrating and the engines throttle right up and I’m thinking pants what the heck is wrong 😳😳😳 after we had climbed away from the runway the pilot came on the PA and he apologised for the vibration and explained that “some idiot air traffic controller cleared us to land with someone still on the runway” I could tell he was not very impressed with ATC 🤣🤣🤣
The hold short story of Delta 253 and situational awareness reminds me of United 1448 at Providence Road Island in 1999. They made a wrong turn in the fog and wound up on the active runway and were just barely missed by another plane taking off. When United 1448 radioed the tower saying someone just took off and they are on an active runway the controller didn't believe them. The controller ignored United and cleared another plane for take off. That other plane listening declined take off twice after the controller kept clearing him for take off. I would like to see you do a video on that event.
I think the flight channel did a recent video on this incident.
In the place I live there was a similar incident, in fact, it's known as the worst plane accident in modern history, two planes where involved + a wing of a third one and part of the error and mistakes were due to the fog
In 1977 in Prague, one ATC cleared a plane for landing and then - his shift was finished - failed to inform the ATC taking over his sector about the plane on final. The new ATC cleared another plane to take off from the same runway. The landing pilots noticed the other plane at the last moment (it was a dark winter night) and managed to lift just enough to "only" tear off his rudder; their own plane lost the landing gear, hit the ground hard, and the fuselage skidded off on the snow. The crew evacuated the passengers due to the fuel leaking everywhere and led the people away from the wreck. Then they waited 40 minutes to be rescued because no-one realised they were there; eventhough some people walked over to the airport building, the guards refused to believe them and let them in!
There were no deaths and no injuries (at least no major injuries), so the communist government covered everything up. The incident/accident didn't even make the news.
@@hekkoCZ I know this! My parents heard about it only 10 years later when visiting Prague (and the town in which they were born, Cimelice) when the regime fell and they could reunite with their families. An incredible event with no injuries! Thanks for reminding me, appreciate it.
@@eatmypanart Are you aware that literally everyone knows about Tenerife? You describe it as if it's not common knowledge to anyone and everyone who's even remotely interested in aviation disaster history.
A friend of mine once mentioned this phrase to me: "When the FAA invites you to a BBQ, make sure you are not the pig"
Same can be said about any government department.
I mean, if you don't do stupid things you've nothing to fear from them. They're some of the most professional people around. Talk straight, don't lie, be professional and they're an ok bunch. Certainly better than other branches.
@@Anonymous-pm7jf Same could be said about a BBQ
What airport is BBQ?
Yep. FAA, FMCSA, FRA, the military, etc.
Back in the 90's I used to travel doing trade shows. At the time, free breakfast buffets were not in every major hotel. I would find the hotel with a free breakfast buffet closest to the airport. So I always ate near flight crews. It got to the point where I would bump in to the same people in different parts of the country, and started having conversations with them.
Thats actually really cool. Its crazy how small the world can seem sometimes.
The world can be really small and have weird things happen. A handful of yrs ago we were leaving Orlando from a family vacation. We were at some place like McDonalds in a LONG breakfast line pretty early in morning. My dad struck up conversation in line not lengthy but general chitchat for just a bit with guy in front of him.
Fast forward an entire day of driving, several restroom breaks and a lunch break and multiple states north/northwest of FL we stop at a fast food place for dinner. My dad takes some grand kids in to use bathroom and they stand in line to grab dinner for us all. There is a line but not terribly long my dad notices the guy in front of him looks vaguely familiar and after several minutes of noticing the other guy looked a few times as well my dad says hey you look sort of familiar… a few mins of chitchat no we are both traveling etc etc it dawns on both of them that they were in line together for breakfast earlier that morning and now again for dinner like an entire long day of driving away. My dad and kids come back to cars like you won’t believe what just happened.
Like WHAT are the odds?!?
I could listen to this English pilot talk anytime, so clear,calm with beautiful enunciation. He could read my bedtime story any time.
I really appreciate how you break down the "boring details" as you call it. I've listened to live ATC at my local airport, and find they talk so stinkin' fast that I can't make out what they are saying most of the time. Watching your vids is a great help for me in learning ATC lingo. Hopefully one day, I'll be able to do that without scratching my head and wondering what the heck they just said. Keep it up!
As a controller, a foreign registered Global Express, operating under a call sign, requesting to stay in the traffic pattern vfr would be a massive red flag for me to clarify. That’s exceptionally unusual.
Agreed, spanish ATC here. I have been working at LEJR TWR and currently at Seville ACC for more than 20 years.
When a Z flight plan (departs as VFR and changes to IFR once airborne) it’s a priority request intentions. You may expect any rules change at any time.
I think this controller was new. KBFI has a lot of flight instructing traffic and it seems a classic case of expectation bias, combined with the inexperience of the controller
From what I've been able to find by googling, the crew requested to depart from 32L rather than the active 14R runway for performance reasons* and was told by ground this required a VFR departure. But somewhere along the way something went very wrong in communication resulting in ATC ending up thinking they wanted to do lap in the traffic pattern and land again before departing for Athens while the crew believed they were departing VFR as requested and expected to continue IFR to their destination. I haven't been able to find what exactly the full exchange with ground was, though a forum post included this snippet:
BFI GND: ... you want to do a VFR pattern and then depart IFR
VJ Dutch pilot: Affirm
GND tx. difficult to read due to strong background n/voices in the TWR; pilot requests 'say that again'
BFI GND:... once you do the lap and the land, you'll be departing south IFR, correct?
VJ Dutch pilot: Affirm
Evidently the crew didn't pick up on GND saying "lap and LAND", whether due to expectation bias (it presumably didn't even occur to them that ATC could possibly be thinking they'd want to do such a thing), non-standard phraseology, or due to difficulty reading them.
* From a PPRuNe forum post: "I've just run it through APG using the current metar (2100z) and its obstacle limited off both runways, with 32L giving you 2000lbs more than 14R. So it's quite reasonable that to get to a "comfortable" fuel level they wanted 32"
Comments like these are one of my favorite things about this channel; I learn from pros. Thank you!
IN SOVIET RUSSIA AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL CALL YOU!
thank you for explaining the "boring stuff" so well.
That's why I like this channel so much. He's interesting.
@@elizabethtrudgill3567 and funny!
@@elizabethtrudgill3567 but it doesn't make sense that he says he's a pilot when he has 3 lines on his uniform which means he is a Co pilot.
@@xhstan being a copilot still makes him a copilot (First Officer). I think you're confusing it with captain which he is not
@@xhstan
Any person holding a pilot’s certificate can be called a pilot. If he called himself a Captain, that would likely be incorrect. He’s evidently a First Office. Copilot is an antiquated term not used in the aviation industry.
Telling someone to hold short and actually enunciating the words 'hold short' are two different things.
totally agree
Yeah, but the default is not "you can enter the runway unless you explicitly heard 'hold short,'" the default is "you _can't_ enter the runway unless you explicitly heard that you're cleared to enter it."
@@Curt_Sampson Agree 100%. The default is always, _"Do nothing if not specifically _*_'CLEARED'_*_ to do it."_
Calling the tower reminded me of a time in flight training my instructor and I were come back to the airport north bound from kpuw to ksff and we were instructed to make a right base for 22R. We called to confirm what we heard. The controller corrected himself and then told us to call the tower upon parking.
My instructor went inside and called as I finished the shut down check list. The controller wanted to just apologize for the mess up and thanked us for the correction.
Said it before and will say it again. I appreciate this channel.
Sometimes ATCs be like:
I'm beginning to feel like a rap god, rap god
All my colleagues from the front to the back nod, back nod
That's wonderful! My son is definitely going to rap to this: he loves this channel and also good rappers (I believe these are non-mumble rappers. I know very little about this :) )
Deal with atc all the time and I constantly get annoyed with there quick chatter that's hard to understand. I'm slower and precise with my words then they reply back like a video on TV that's in fast forward. I want to tell them so many times please be clear, professional and pronunciate your words in a slower manner so everyone can hear you plain and clear. Most Atc in my opinion rush to much with there speech but that wouldn't be the case if the shoe was on the other foot and they were flying the aircraft instead of sitting in a lounge chair just talking with no risk to there personal life, aircraft or the people on board.
@James Hodson 😆
When he says coming up
It's so satisfying to hear
Thank you sir
You know ever since the Tenerife and the catastrophic results ATC and the volume of planes inbound and taking off would be more of a priority and more attention to these details. Every time I see close calls I think of that accident. The scary thing is as we all know the possibility is still real today.
Some notes on the Seattle snafu: 1) The pilot had already received his IFR clearance on the ground. At the time of departure, his route and schedule were fully cleared by all echelons of ATC. 2) The jet could not meet the minimum climb requirements of the active runways 14 (due to terrain/obstruction clearance). Therefore the jet had to depart opposite direction, runways 32. 3) This against-traffic departure was approved by Ground, with the caveat that it needed to be VFR, and they could resume their IFR clearance airborne. 4) The ground controller said that they'd coordinate this with tower. 5) Obviously, the ground controller forgot. The IFR flightstrip that ground had prepared was never passed to tower. Tower had no idea that there was any IFR clearance for the jet, or why the heck it was taking off the wrong way. 6) I assume that the tower controller has seen weirder at a busy GA airport like that, based on the non-asking-for-clarification. 7) The lynchpin comes when the pilot says "departing to the north destination Athens", he did not say "we have IFR clearance". He still thinks tower has a flightstrip somewhere around, and that stating the destination will enable tower to locate the IFR flightstrip. 8) Tower says "not gonna give you your IFR clearance airborne". There again seems to be some terminology confusion here, because the pilot should have said "I don't need a new clearance, we already have IFR clearance, find our strip!"; clearly the pilot misunderstands "not gonna give you your IFR clearance" as "we won't let you depart VFR and then resume the previous clearance", as opposed to "we won't create a new clearance and routing from scratch" which is what tower meant. 9) "Aren't you able to negotiate?" further demonstrates the pilot's misunderstanding of USA terminology for IFR, he thinks he's talking about resuming the old/current/active plan, whereas tower thinks he's bitching about how controllers should bend over backwards to make new clearances airborne. The query about landing, and the response to it, further distracts both of them.
It's clear to me that 1) the proximate cause of this fuss was the ground controller having one of the worst brainfarts of their life, and completely failing to give tower the active IFR strip, as well as brief tower about the unusual departure that went with the IFR strip. Ground deserves the most blame for this incident. 2) The deeper underlying issue, which caused the relatively-benign proximate cause to spiral out of control, was the british pilot's unfamiliarity with USA IFR terminology and/or slang. I'm not a pilot, and don't know what is an international standard vs USA standard, but there was clearly all kinds of miscommunication about how exactly IFR works between the pilot and tower. Divided by a common language indeed. Probably the pilot bears more blame than tower, but tower had plenty of opportunity to ask for clarification about the strange circumstances (tho again, I assume that such non-asking is a result of tower having seen weirder before).
Probably the best that could come out of this is if international and USA phraseology about IFR clearances could be standardized. Or maybe the pilot really was just an idiot, but I'm inclined to think a structural gap exists here.
Might want to read the 7110.65 4-2-8. You can’t clear someone IFR, suspend IFR, then clear them again IFR.
Also, the local and ground controllers are next to each other in the cab. When the ground control switches an aircraft to local, they hand them the FPS regardless of IFR or VFR. There’s almost a zero percent chance that something like that wouldn’t have been coordinated. I’ve had pilots take off VFR before and try to pick up IFR in the air going to a busy airport and there are times when we just can’t do it due to airport saturation. I think this pilot just didn’t want to wait and thought he could be slick and pickup in the air. He’s also extremely bad at clarifying what he actually wanted to do. Also, you are right about the Phraseology thing. I was always taught with foreign pilots to use only prescribed phraseology in accordance with the 7110.65. American pilots you can have conversations with if need be, but someone like Aeromexico, Emirates, Lufthansa, etc. you need to speak only proper phraseology unless absolutely necessary to have a “conversation”
I was once cleared across active runway....I seen the other plane rolling and stopped just as ground control went crazy...this was in my solo learning phase. That was a good lesson, I carefully look everytime.
Controllers are required to get a readback of all hold short instructions. We used to include "Readback all hold short instructions" on the ATIS.
Yep, read back all hold short instructions AND include your call sign. Pretty sure that's a requirement. This is on the controller because she didn't get the hold short read back but cleared another aircraft for takeoff.
For that matter, it's not exactly best practice to give the hold short instruction, then ask a question requiring a response. It can lead to this...
@@toddsmith8608 It's on both, just as he said...
We still have that in the ATIS for my local airport
@@nihlify Yep, in the pilot's defense if the instructions weren't written in the video I wouldn't have heard the "hold short." She said it very fast.
This guy ROCKS! I subscribe to a lot of channels, but out of all of them, on a list of people I would like to sit down and have a beer and a conversation with.....he's definitely at the top of the page. I wish the best of all things to all who read this......
The Delta 300 incident. That controller was talking faster than the terms and conditions guy at the end of adverts. It's no surprise those pilots missed the hold short instruction. Controller takes a 50% claim in the fault here, the other 50% being the Delta 300 pilots. They should have caught that the other flight was cleared for take off on the runway they were about to cross.
Delta 300 wasn’t on the same frequency as the Delta flight that was clear for takeoff. If you listen closely, the takeoff instructions were a different voice.
You are correct, though, that it’s a 50/50 blame. All hold short and runway crossing instructions are required to be read back-which wasn’t done here.
@@tomcorwine3091 Also such a crucial information like holding short of an active runway should not immediately be followed by a relatively unimportant question for the gate number. I could imagine if ATC did not immediately ask that question the pilot would have had to read back to hold short or if he did not understand it correctly the error would have been obvious.
@@trixn4285 Agreed.
Lately I have seen so much death, hopelessness and peoples lives getting ruined by the choices they had taken. Thank you for being you, hearing you say "coming up" is one thing that makes me know that for the next couple minutes I'll be away from all that. Thank you
Some controllers also get in a hurry and talk like they have a mouthful of marbles, which can make things very difficult to understand.
When in doubt, ask for a repeat... and never be afraid to tell the tower to slow down their delivery.
I’m always amazed that pilots can maintain situational awareness, mainly because I can’t go to the supermarket without GPS. I have a good friend who’s now a commercial captain and, after many tries, we finally coordinated our schedules so he could fly my family home. Knowing my own lack of navigational skills, I actually asked him, “You know how to get there, right??” HNL-JFK
It's fairly easy to maintain situational awareness once you get comfortable flying. Unless it's in a simulator. At least for me. I don't have the necessary auditory and visual clues for situational awareness in simulators. I always tell instructors this before getting into a simulator, and they usually (not always) look at me like I'm stupid. Yeah, go ask doctors if you can maintain situational awareness without all the needed inputs. LOL
Same! I’m not stupid, but for some reason special awareness, unless I’m drawing it, is beyond me. My brother is a hobby pilot and I’ve looked at his maps. Then away because that much confusion sends my ADD off.
@@PetThePeeves I have TWO post-graduate degrees, became a VP at a billion dollar corporation, and I STILL can’t figure out where I am, whether in a plane or a car. It’s just something I was born lacking. But I have perfect musical pitch, and other people find that astounding. Everyone has his strengths and weaknesses.
I'm terrified of planes but I love to travel, your videos are helping me get over my fear and understand aviation safety to where I do not believe I will blow up in the sky or suddenly burst into flames!
Yea…..that doesn’t really happen.
@@thebigcnel oh it has. TWA 800…things can and do go wrong but it’s exceedingly rare and usually the result of negligence or pure accident. I’ve had a fear of flying most of my life and had to travel by plane a lot for work and the biggest freak outs I’ve had were over turbulence which isn’t even what takes planes down.
planes are safer than cars
you should be afraid of cars
@@frowniebrown86 TWA 800 was a long time ago. I know almost everything about that flight. I fly for the airlines and it’s a highly studied accident.
@@thebigcnel ac unit
The major cause of the runway incursion was ATC’s lack of communication discipline. She raced through the clearance and never got a read back. Delta’s only fault was not asking her to repeat since they clearly didn’t understand the first part of her transmission, but other than that they complied with the clearance as they had previously been given.
Delta was definitely at fault for not giving a readback, though of course that doesn't make them _solely_ responsible for the incident. But I feel that was probably the biggest and most easily correctable factor in the web of causes.
Readbacks help not just because they confirm your understanding to the controller, but also because they can also help make you better understand what you've just heard and more reliably execute it. Simple acts such as saying aloud what you think is happening or what you're going to do, or even just pointing at something you're supposed to be paying attention to, foreground gaps between your "system 1" or "fast" thinking processes' expectations of the situation and the actual situation.
In other words, had the pilot handing the radio done a "readback" even just to himself, without the microphone keyed, the runway incursion might have been avoided as he might have realized from his own readback what he'd actually heard, rather than what the system 1/fast thinking part of his brain thought or assumed he'd heard.
The same principle is the reasoning behind the pilot verbal cross-checks described by Kelsey and in some comments in this blog. (PF says, "Clear to cross runway 12L"; PM responds, "Clear to cross runway 12L.") I wonder how that went in the cockpit on that flight, if indeed it happened at all.
This principle applies widely, by the way, not just in aviation. You can look up "rubber duck debugging" to see how computer programmers use the verbalisation technique to help resolve consistency errors between internal mental models of what the computer is doing and what the computer is actually doing.
Video 1 is the reason I love jfk Steve ATC , he would always refer to the private jets as the 1 percent. He would be professional with the crew of the private jets , do everything as required and professional , but would always warn the heavy’s especially, “give way to 1 percent and remain vigilant” he was a legend . Would love to see you react to some of his ATC funny interactions … he is a educator for ATC now
The combination of pilot skills and a great personality is becoming a necessity! 74 gear, thanks!
These people are experienced and it's really hard not to let it go over people's minds. Overconfidence just kicks in with time and it can be disastrous.
The controller told the pilots to hold short so fast that I couldn’t even understand what she said.
It sounded like it was sped up just for those words.
Amen
I know I'm not a member of the club (pilot) but the ATC order to hold sort is garbled at best, still the pilot should have asked for clarification and asked politely if ATC could drop the speed at witch they speak to under one thousand words per second. I think they both deserve a talking too.
true that. They do that as well, just not in this case.
Its actually much clearer in the headset in the real world. But you are correct, the FAA actually states in AIM 4-2-2 c states to speak in a normal conversational tone.
Kelsey is also right in saying she should have asked the pilot to repeat the instructions when he didn't especially if she knew she was using that runway for another flight taking off.
No sorry, incorrect. Once you have been flying a while you really tune into what is being said and it does not sound garbled. What Luke stated is correct. The pilot straight up lied, and there was no positive CRM going on in the flightdeck. What you hear downloaded from LIve ATC is far more distorted than reality. I have listened to my own transmissions on that website and have difficulty believing it is me talking.
As a former Center controller, I like that you clearly explain in non-technical terms what is going on.
Is it just me or is Air Traffic Control often not really articulating as well as they should be?
I think if the controller with the "hold of 22 right," statement had spoken slower it might have been heard and understood better by the pilots.
It should not have been followed with the question in one transmission.
Hold.
Holding.
What is your runway?
22.
I think part of the confusion came from both the runway and gate being 22.
The problem comes when the ATC commands and asks a question in the same message. That is a very basic don't
My experience, good ATC person will immediately state to read back hold short instructions... and/or its on the ATIS.
Also, I developed a habit that I always do now regardless if I got a clearance to cross a runway or not and time has passed as I approach the intersection or finally get to the intersection, I call ATC and confirm that I'm still clear to cross. To me, that's now just a knee jerk reaction.
"Happy Tower, Cessna123, finally approaching/at M, just confirming, am I still clear to cross 28L, and hold short 28R before continue to parking?"
Simple. Saves everyone grief.
No deal for ATC (exceeding 3 or so deals per some rolling period they get fired, and no deviation for me (whatever a deviation gets you, and I'd rather not find out).
Everyone keeps their job, me my flying privileges, and everyone no accident.
I see in my mind coming to a runway about to cross and I'm already breaking or earlier approaching, finger on the mike calling up.
I mean, what if they forgot? They're human. And ATC has done some goony stuff before.
What if I thought I was clear, but wasn't? Death and destruction.
And if anyone gets snippy of radio congestion or extra "work", they can go fly a kite ;)~
Flying isn't a spectator sport; it requires active listening and speaking.
Bad day at the office for that Air Traffic Controller.
Last time I was this early was when I flared... and subsequently tested the landing gear.
JFK is a busy place, but the controller handling Delta 300 sounded like she'd had about 15 cups of coffee in the last hour. Yeah, pilot error, but her 600 words a minute broadcasts were not helping.
Crack
I guarantee she was written up for this error, and the pilot will not get deviated. This is why controllers will get snippy with pilots who get complacent with runway readbacks. Even if you read it back but drop your callsign it is ATC's fault if the pilot does anything wrong. I have had perfect readbacks where the pilot will just taxi straight onto the runway. Rarely with professional pilots but it still happens.
I thought you were exaggerating until she spoke
What part of 'holshoarunwaytotoaj' did you not understand?!
@@amicloud_yt what part of 'holshoarunwaytoaj' DID you understand?
Edit: yes I know it was a joke I'm joking as well chill
I'm a student pilot and made my obligatory training landings at a class D airport.... throughout my visit there- I screwed up a bit with the radio calls and the controller started to talk to me like I was a 3rd grader. I appreciated the clarity from him but left with my tail between my legs :)
I was flying a 172 out of SYR years ago, and heard/witnessed a runway incursion involving a USAir DC-9 and a company F-28. SYR has two runways 10/28 & (then) 14/32 (now 15/33). The DC-9 was instructed to “Taxi rwy 28 on Alpha, hold short of rwy 32” which they read back. I’m sitting on the opposite side of 28, finishing my run up, and look up to watch the DC-9 blunder right out into 32! Simultaneously, a company F-28 was cleared to position & hold on 32. At this point the ground controller went off (rightfully) “USAir ### you were NOT cleared to cross that runway! You were instructed to hold SHORT of 32 on Alpha!” One would think the DC-9 would’ve hustled across, and apologized. Instead they made a 180 in the middle of the runway, replying “ok, but we don’t see WHY.” The controller blew his stack at that- “you don’t see WHY?? When you finish your unauthorized 180, you’ll see a company F-28 off the left side in position and about to roll!!” Not knowing when to shut up, our hero in the DC-9 replied “well, they better not do it now, or there’ll be a hell of a mess...” Yes, they were given a number to call. Love to know what became of that crew.
What an attitude! Yikes
holy crap
She was definitely at fault too. It was complete gibberish when she talked.
I agree, she rushed a critical part of the transmission.
Agree, I missed the hold part to audibly I only knew she said it from the text
With modern voice codecs and compression there is no reason why the radio audio quality has to be so shit. Other than the cost to modernize all the planes and towers with digital radios.
The recordings are trash because they're made from a single receiver operated by a HAM somewhere near the airport. The real ATC voice quality is generally much better.
@@Psi105 Have you heard the average voice codec used in two way radio? Analog AM generally sounds way better. The issue here wasn't audio quality, it was a combination of a very fast speaking controller and arguably inattentive pilots, plus lax radio procedures (not insisting on readback).
I remember hearing the full audio including ground clearance a little while ago. I believe they filed the IFR clearance on the ground, but requested a different runway due to ?obstruction at end of their given runway while on Clearance - clearance advised them to take off in the pattern then they would be cleared for the IFR. There was miscommunication between tower, ground and pilot leading to this situation! It's a shame the full audio is not in the liveatc archive anymore :/
I know the feeling, I was a passenger in a Piper Warrior with a 17 year old pilot who nearly taxied us straight into the path of a taking of Jumbo jet at Melbourne Int Airport. The tower was screaming at him to stop, he hit the brakes so hard we nearly had a prop strike. Within seconds of stopping this huge jet just went thundering past us.
They aren't even old enough to drive, what are kids doing flying?
@@srinitaaigaura You have to be 15 to fly solo in Aus.
@@mark703 Hmm so it's in one way easier to fly than drive... doesn't make logical sense.
@@mark703 Australia or Austria?
@@book-obsessedweirdo8677 Australia
ATC usualy speaks fast but that lady was like machine gun. And her biggest mistake was asking the gate right after the most important instruction. Human brain usualy focus on the last thing , and because it was a direct question he missed the first instruction.
I have never commented on your videos before, but just wanted to say you have great content.
I work on the railways and no one knew that I had an interest in aviation.
I spoke with with a colleague yesterday who also had an interest. He said that I need to watch Kelsey and Petter's channel. I said I already do.
Keep up the good work.
Take care, Jeff
Some of these pilots and controllers talk so fast and don't enunciate very well. It's not surprising that mistakes get made. If the radio has a bit of static, you might miss something if the person is talking fast. Seems like they should talk slowly and clearly at all times.
seems to be an antiquated system to me
Repeat backs are necessary to confirm messages are received properly.
Great channel, Kelsey. I've tried a few other aviation channels, keep coming back to yours.
Pacing and content always wins. 🤘
@@74gear You're welcome, K. 👍🤠
I really hate it when people try to act like the other person was 100% of the issue and they did nothing wrong, at least acknowledge you could have done something better too; props to the pilot for taking all responsibility, even though it wasn't all him
Thanks for the video! I’m a student pilot and constantly learning and improving my ATC communication skills 😅. Takes some getting used to but these kinds of videos drive home the value of making sure you’re on top of it and crystal clear about the instruction you have been given.
Glad you like it Haley. Glad it’s helpful!! 👍🏻 ✈️
@@74gear It's unfortunate that you've used this particular thumbnail for this video, showing an aircraft crossing a runway and causing an aircraft on short final to commence a go-around. The actual photo/screenshot you've used for the thumbnail, does show an aircraft crossing a runway, but this particular incident features an aircraft that DID in fact have a clearance to cross this runway. In future, could I suggest that you don't use a picture of an aircraft that WAS crossing the runway with a valid clearance to do so, but then trying to use it as a thumbnail example of an aircraft crossing the runway without a clearance to do so.
I got a "call the tower" they asked me to do a brake connection check. My heart sank to my stomach though.
What was the reason? What aircraft?
What's a brake connection check?
@@dannydaw59 I'm commenting so that if someone replies I'll get notifiedxd
@@JustinFergusZZata how good the braking is on an active runway.
@@mdb831 wait what? I've never heard of a brake connection check lol, care to explain
"holdshortarunway22rightwhat is your gate number"... she makes 2 different statements very fast, it's not surprising they didn't hear the first bit.
Exactly this. A controller should never issue another instruction after a hold short clearance. Wait for the read back!
VistaJet 868 DID say departure. He also asked if the controller would like him to hold 1500 for the downwind. Typically pilots will say they are doing patterns or doing touch and goes, etc. But this is a perfect example on miscommunication which is responsible for many crashes and most wars. Also after takeoff the first turn in the pattern is called "crosswind" then downwind, base, final, departure.
Glad people are discovering Kelsey though Leon, welcome aboard.
GREAT DETAIL GIVEN on what's going on. Gives you something fun to do in your down time that we non-pilots who still love the idea of flying can enjoy the insights and mayhem!
Ik what he means, I just thought it was funny when he said “VFR, where there’s no rules”
IFR, VFR and WTFR.
Imagine a student pilot hearing that and decides to fly thru every Class B from now on referencing that statement. lol.
There is one rule: "Look Out!"
The Small-Gives-Way-To-Big Rule!
I also think tower shouldn’t be asking a non-relevant question, like “what’s your gate number” when they’re also issuing a critical hold short clearance.
Secondly, tower should be able to see where the plane is parking without asking, for example phx ground can see your gate.
Thirdly, at these busy class B airports they’re giving control instructions while you’re still slowing through 100 knots, and it’s high workload. They would eliminate expectation bias by just waiting 5 more seconds to give critical control instructions once the plane is slowed.
In JFK the tower controls ground traffic until the plane passes through runway 22R (which is closer to the terminal). They need to know which gate the plane is going to so they can put them on the correct taxiway before passing the plane over to gorund control.
@@davidd1936 Especially true at ORD
Exactly. That's the key here. She should have split those two elements in two different messages. First the command (hold short), wait for the readback, and then ask about the gate number. Never in the same message.
I hate to do it because it takes two much on the frequency on a very busy airport, but I give information about birds or anything, wait and then clear for TO/landing or viceversa.
I may not know anything about planes and aviation. But I am enjoying how you explain everything.
Back in the day when TWA was still around, my sister and I were taking our first flight as unaccompanied minors from Seattle to St. Louis to visit family. We had just touched down when we took off again at a steep sideways angle. Turns out there was an unauthorized plane on the runway and we would have crashed into them if the pilot hadn't been so awesomely prepared to abort the landing. We had to spend 45 minutes circling around to get back in landing position, but we're all still here to remember the incident. Yay, pilots!
@Meister House To visit my aunt and uncle. Back then, it was no big deal for kids to fly unaccompanied.
Love you Kelsey!!!💝 Your explanations are so clear, I can understand everything. Watching your videos calms my fear of flying.
In defense of the pilot who erred in crossing the active runway - the controller was talking so fast I think it would be easy to miss such an important message. I could easily understand her question regarding the gate number because she seemed to deliver this question more slowly. "Hold short..." was the more critical message and I think she should have commanded this more slowly and deliberately.
Hello Kelsy, I like your way of saying " comin up" 👍😂
Kelsey*
Heeey 74 geeaaaar
It's always a good day when 74gear post's a video
Hi Kelsey ...
Does ATC not realise that if they speak so fast, there are going to be errors ... ? More power to you guy for understanding these ATC controllers ... Some of these ATC people really need to slow down ... !
12:15 If you ask me, the entire fault is on the ATC. She fired out that instruction like a Barret Jackson auctioneer and asked the pilot a question in the same breath. Even playing it back multiple times, I still found it difficult to clearly pick up on the "hold short." He responded to her question about the gate number and didn't repeat the instruction about the hold short. This should have been a red flag for the ATC, as she should have been waiting for him to repeat that instruction back to her, and he didn't. That's the whole point of repeating it back, to ensure that they heard you correctly and that they are executing the instruction.
To the pilot’s credit the controller was mumbling.
Totally off topic, but with all your flying how many times a week do you actually get to sleep at your own home?
🤣🤣😂
Forget that, does he even *have* one?
PS: 69 likes...... Nice
@@nightbird7208 lol I wondered the same
You should talk about it during a month and not a week. When you are a international freight pilot you go out on a trip from 2 to 10 days. But he actually has a lot of rest, probably half a month working and the other half at home. I don’t really know how Atlas work but it’s most of the time like this
Was wondering that too
The dispatcher was speaking exceedingly fast! No wonder they didn’t hear the hold short statement.
From what I've read in another place, the aircraft needed to take off opposite to the active runway direction for performance reasons. This wasn't possible to do IFR for traffic reasons, so the crew had negotiated with the ground controller to depart VFR and pick up the IFR clearance in the air. Somehow ground didn't communicate this properly to the tower controller.
We call that a readback/hearback error and from the FAAs perspective the controller hold the same responsibility for causing that incident as the pilot. It's easy to do though. I dont work at a facility nearly as busy as JFK and I can only imagine how easy it is to think you heard something that you really didn't at somewhere that busy.
I've seen this constantly while doing service work at KSEA. I've even seen some planes that are being towed by mechanics almost run into taxing aircraft. If you're ever in the Seattle area again let me buy you a beer for all the great content you produce!
“Call the tower” doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s bad.”
Me: “…Ahhhhh yeah, it does. 😝
99% of the time, yes. When they include "possible pilot deviation" it's 100% of the time.
@@ParadigmUnkn0wn Saying it was his fault or IRRG on Coms might have saved his job However something is missing in the audio and it is rather obvious, otherwise this is not supposed to happed at all. Even though sadly it does.
I never worry about the call the tower phrase. They got one job in a lounge chair no risk to there life. If I catch a screw up from atc well then I take control since I'm the federally licensed pilot not them and I take control and do what I know Is right. I have my life, the aircraft and souls on board the responsibility that they're safe. Pilots and passengers risk not going home because of errors not atc. By federal law I'm granted the powers over atc to do what is necessary to secure all those responsibilities. Basically I will override atc guidance if it's not in my best interest safety wise. Like I said they go home safely at the end of the day a pilot has ten folds the responsibility on his shoulders like his life and passengers life for one and the aircraft which what I fly most can't even dream to afford.
@@normanwilmoth7404 Fortunatly for me, I’ve yet to be told to call the tower. One day before I retire however, I am dying to tell a rude controller, “let me know when you’re ready to copy my number down for a possible CONTROLLER deviation!”
@@colt10mmsecurity68 typically a call to tower is just a controller trying to cover his butt from upper seniority to place blame on the pilot from my experience. They make plenty of mistakes because they talk so fast without taking a breath and it's annoying. I have been rode a few times and made them repeat themselves multiple times when they speak to fast. If it continues then I basically tell them to slow down so all of us can understand one coherent sentence you're even making. I won't tell them copy and repeat back until it's spoken plain and clear. Burns there ass up but they work for us, not for them. They're simply guidance which does help and I respect but ultimately it's all on the pilot to bring the people and aircraft home safely! If there's a tower error then I'm going to override them if they're not correct and report to the tower who made the error. Tower reports can go both ways so be bold and stand your ground if you're in the right report them if they're wrong. That's the problem is the tower workers don't get called out enough but will quickly call you out to cover themselves and have this attitude that they don't make mistakes. They make way way more than a professional pilot but most pilots are to passive and let tower people slip when they won't let you slip if you make a mistake. One way road with those guys and gal's.
I worked in a traffic office the radio had contact with ops,ramp,catering,traffic and engineering the first day in the traffic office I missed a lot of the calls but after a short time I knew what was going on in all departments so I agree that experience makes you more aware of everything that is going on with your airline and the airport
In my aviation law class we were taught not to call the tower after a possible pilot deviation without first consulting an attorney. Then, if you choose to call the tower (you probably shouldn't), don't identify yourself by name or confirm that you were the PIC of the aircraft in question.
Everything on the ATC side is recorded, so I can't see how calling the tower changes anything.
Well, the controller actually said “hoshd 22R”…may have sounded similar to “cross 22R” with the noise level inside the cockpit
I miss the 747-400 from back in the day. Great plane
How r u here
omg hi wth
744 lol
Yes, Boeing used to make great airplanes.
@@smosnm5309 it's called "the internet"
So True on the free breakfast, I used to work for AA, I was an Agent/Manager, I traveled on business Alot. AA would have you setup a profile of what you like when you Travel, my first ✔️ was under Free Breakfast, now that I don't work for the airlines any longer I search my hotels and only pick Free Breakfast 🥞
This channel is growing on me...Subscribed...Really liked how Stern that ATC woman was...She seems to really care what the heck can go Wrong and was not taking any Crap from the Pilot
One thing I miss about working at my old job in YHZ was listening to banter of ATC and the pilots on the ground frequency.
you still feel like the guy with 70k subs to me. Can't believe you've grown so much!
11:00 In Delta's defense, "Hold short" was a bit difficult to hear, and could have just been missed.
Clearance to cross the runway was even harder to hear, since it wasn't said, but they still managed to do that.
@@bsanaee you don't know what was said prior to the hold short audio though.
Yeah, when control said that, I imagined myself as Delta 258’s pilot for a second there, and I’m saying: “Repeat your last”
Would… that be accurate?
I get the sense that getting told to call the tower is like getting sent to the principal's office
So true about things slowing down as the comfort level and familiarity increases. Going through that now, finally starting to offload stuff to the left brain and it's such a relief.
Kelsey, you're 100% correct. At busy airports us controllers can get laid back...if you notice the rwy incursions tend to happen at busy airports
Lol the ATC was thinking “holy shit!!!!”
I applaud him for staying calm despite the chaotic situation.
Kelsey, was that you confirming last second go around instructions at O'Hare on July 1? Turkish seemed to be taking its merry old time getting off the damn runway.
I flew helicopters all my life and once when I violated an airspace with an old GPS and was on the wrong frequency after I landed I was told to call the tower. The controller was very pleasant and I didn’t argue I knew what had happened and he didn’t get me violated which he could have. I did learn a good lesson from it though.
We had a rule at my most recent company requiring both pilots to call out to each other
"hold short runway xx"
"cleared to cross runway xx"
"lights on, clear left" / "clear right"
"clear of runway xx" / lights off...
Not as annoying as it may seem, as there have been some close calls, even in recent years.
Readbacks help not just because they confirm your understanding to the controller, but also because they can also help make you better understand what you've just heard and more reliably execute it. Simple acts such as saying aloud what you think is happening or what you're going to do, or even just pointing at something you're supposed to be paying attention to, foreground gaps between your "system 1" or "fast" thinking processes' expectations of the situation and the actual situation.
In other words, had the pilot handing the radio done a "readback" even just to himself, without the microphone keyed, the runway incursion might have been avoided as he might have realized from his own readback what he'd actually heard, rather than what the system 1/fast thinking part of his brain thought or assumed he'd heard.
The same principle is the reasoning behind the pilot verbal cross-checks described by Kelsey and in some comments in this blog. (PF says, "Clear to cross runway 12L"; PM responds, "Clear to cross runway 12L.") I wonder how that went in the cockpit on that flight, if indeed it happened at all.
This principle applies widely, by the way, not just in aviation. You can look up "rubber duck debugging" to see how computer programmers use the verbalisation technique to help resolve consistency errors between internal mental models of what the computer is doing and what the computer is actually doing.
As a subtitler who sometimes works on stuff like "Aircrash Investigation" and the likes, getting explanations of the lingo like this is quite helpful. I have to translate it into language the regular viewer will understand.
In the Delta case, I bet that 22L and gate 22 having the same number created some mental interference for the pilots.
Indeed.
That ATC with her call out to the delta was so fast at her read that it was hard to catch esp with the static on the call, but as you say both that ATC & the Pilot made errors.
There is no static on the real calls, ATC and planes are equipped with much better radio equipment. All ATC you get on the internet ist recorded by amateurs in their homes, it does not reflect the real quality of radio calls.
@@ronik24 no, but jfk would be a very busy place and both would be equally distracted as if the recording was this jumbled. In real time you only get one chance to catch what someone said. Not making excuses for them, but still good to keep in mind when watching recordings. It’s a lot easier to follow along when you can rewind and nothing is at stake.
Your content is awesome! You do an amazing job breaking down all these situations and aviation in general. Love the chanel, Thanks for being awesome.
As a small plane pilot training for what was then called a COMM/IFR, my CFI and I flew out of Honolulu Intl. which was a red star airport and made for some interesting radio comm. The ATCs in the tower put the pro in professional. One of my favorite commands from them was after being cleared to land, hearing my call numbers followed by "expedite approach," repeated back by me and after looking over my shoulder and seeing four 747s sequenced behind me meant one thing. No flaps and firewall it. I loved it. We aimed for just past the numbers (having trained on a naval base with arresting gear equipped runways it was second nature) and first taxiway off. To this day, I still love the no flap landing. And I kinda think the controllers liked having the puddle jumper getting down and getting off their runway as quickly as possible.
Never heard that term: "The carpet dance" But love it.
*I love making these types of clips, JFK used to have lots of good ones*
Specifically Steve.
@@MrNikolidas I miss Kennedy Steve.
@
@@MrNikolidas you guys rock. Thank you for your service