Fact or Friction? TWO Things MOST People DON'T Know About Wear.
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- Опубліковано 21 лис 2024
- Friction and Wear are NOT related. They are actually independent of each other. You can reduce friction and increase wear. You can also reduce wear and increase friction, but you really want to reduce both fiction and wear!
Dr. Peter Lee and Lake Speed Jr explain everything in this interesting exploration of the world of Tribology, which is the study of friction, wear and lubrication.
To learn more about Southwest Research Institute, check out: / @southwestresearchinst...
To learn more about Tribology, check out: / @stlemedia
#oil #engine #friction #motoroil
![Behind the Scenes of Gapless Piston Rings And Ring Flutter [#TECHTALK]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OFtf7l0B3kM/mqdefault.jpg)
Finally someone is actually using state of the art science to analyze friction and oil instead of homemade friction and wear tests.
Absolutely!
project farm, I assume you are talking about is doing the best with what he has. He doesnt exactly have the money to buy this stuff lol.
Instead of standing on your soap box and crowing you should promote the retesting of Project Farm's results using "state of the art science" to see how far, if any, Project Farm's testing was off and how his conclusions compared to "real Science" which nobody has access to unless you are well heeled or know somebody who you are probably paying to do some testing anyway as part of your own research.
Looking forward for the High Zinc oil tests wear vs friction
Thanks!
The water ski analogy lit a light in my head, like an epiphany!
We are glad it helped!
Awesome job- keep bring us these type testing data/results. Many engine builders need lube/wear/friction analysis for flat tappets / cam lobes. Would love to see you tackle this area of an engine wear / failure.
Thanks! We might be able to do that.
@@TotalSealI’d love to see you guys test the Quaker state ultimate synthetic (has a gold sticker). The oil guy found it had the highest oil film strength out of all the oils he tested (AMS oil, etc etc). And that the zddp oils had very soft film strength. Would love to see how a high film strength compares to high zddp oil for wear protection on the walls.
The diversity of Stev-o is amazing.
Love the geek out moment around 12:12 on how cool a job it is. You can see from how passionate you two are! If I'd known about this field, I would've stuck with engineering in school...but at least I can learn some from you guys!
Thank you!
The use of oils on cutting tools can dramatically increase the life of the tooling. You have 2 pieces bearing against each other with the purpose of removing material- you'd think adding oil would decrease the effectiveness, right? Not necessarily so. In fact, if you use the right oil with the right cutting tool, you will dramatically increase tool life, in addition to a marked improvement in surface finish in the piece being cut.
My point being that friction and wear aren't always directly coupled.
Guys this was awesome! I used to do power cylinder development about 20 years ago at Nav - worked with the guys at Dana in Muskegon on oil consumption & ring coatings. brings back good memories. I would like to hear more about additives that help wear but do not increase friction as well as PVD coatings that help ring/bore wear interactions. building endurance race old BMW inline 6's with wide factory rings (1.75mm/2.0mm) and would like to free up some hp.
Thanks Jeff! The coating in this test was CrN on our AP steel rings. We tested another coating (not shown in the video) that did even better!
@totalseal there’s a company in Southern AZ that specializes in vacuum coating development that you should talk to. Look up GP Plasma - and contact Frank Papa.
The energy from these guys is awsome let alone the technology
Thanks!
this series needs a playlist, having a hard time finding all results
Thanks for the suggestion!
You guys are University level…and I fxxking LOVE IT.
I did Science at Uni and seeing the practical application in my hobby (fanatical about Diesel engines).
Can’t wait to rebuild my engine in my 4x4.. in the meantime I’ll keep learning as much as I can.
Toyotas under engineering has thrust me on this path.
Learning starts at Uni, continues through life.
The best part…anyone can educate themselves thanks to YT and guys as awesome as you guys that appreciate that to be industry leaders you need to invest in real science.
I also love reading independent reports from different additive makes.
Unfortunately, these reports are a bit outside the scope of non science educated…we need a YT channel that explains independent reports.
Thanks!
I agree with every comment I read. This is fantastic scientific information which equals a lot of horsepower, time, and money. Knowledge is Power, literally
Thanks!
The excitement is riveting! Im geeking out too!!!
Thanks! More in depth Tribology tech is yet to come…
Cant Wait for seeing the tests...
Thanks!
Can’t wait to see the SEM/(EDS) Scanning Electron Microscope info
Tribology is NOT the study of tribes folks. Listen up now!😊
Thanks!
I'll be in the market for a piston ring package soon. I'll seriously look into these thinner, coated Total Seal rings. 💪🏆
Thanks!
Will your company be offering these coatings on your rings? Specifically the set that would be gapless and slated for a diesel? I love this sort of knowledge transfer!
Yes, our AP steel rings come with this coating.
This is great info, however its very small part of the big picture. How does the ring wear and friction changes affect ring seal? Assuming the best results for wear and friction equate to power output is maybe misleading. Also, how close are the results of the testing to real world? I'm sure you have a pressure applied to the ring that is similar to a calculated pressure on a running engine at a given power. How does changing the pressure affect the behavior of the additives. Other thoughts, heat from the combustion process and fuel contaminates will all have affects on this test. Again, its great data to have, but much like a flow bench, the results could be miss leading and need to be backed up with power and wear data from an engine ran in its environment.
That’s why we take what we learn from the bench test and run it in engine tests to see if it correlates.
Great answer!
Oh we’re geeking out now!
Oh yeah!
SWRI is a really cool place. Wish I would have known about them when I was in college because I would have loved to have worked there. Happens to be down the road from a secondary place for my current job.
Nice Bruker 3D White Light Measurement system-Gives so much more information than a single trace stylus
Absolutely!
Tuned in for more
Thank you guys for the research efforts
Thanks! We have more on the way.
Thanks Lake. This video was very educational and exciting. I do have a question; does his test rig have the ability to heat the oil to engine operating temperatures? I think that is profound if you really want to see a lubricant's performance. Thanks for producing the video!
Yes it does
Awesome video. I should have known better LoL, thanks!
Very informative video
Glad you liked it
Have you tested coated rings on coated cylinders? Nikasil, SUMEbore?
Yes, we have extensive testing on both of those bore coatings in actual engines. We even. Have some SUMEbore coated liners for these bench tests.
So!!!! What is the story on the oil??? I have a running motor now and anything to help what I have now would be helpful. I know! You are going to tell me chrome rings suck. 10 years ago or so that was killer. Thanks for your time.
The break-in oil that reduced wear was the Driven GP-1 Break-In 30.
Exactly like during fifty-three X. Sometimes lower friction doesn't means better fifty-three X
While fascinating, what about parameters like temperature, varying ring loading to simulate the four cycles, fuel washing, etc., as I’m imagining as many modes of wear?
We did vary the temperature and the load. We showed those details in the first video with SwRI.
Fuel dilution, as you mentioned, is a harder variable to bring into this kind of testing, which is why we always follow this up with actual engine testing.
My 2021 Mustang GT uses 10 quarts of 5W30 oil. Would it hurt if i used 5W20 but increased frequency of oil changes?
Awesome video guys!!!! I love wear! 😅
Thanks Dan!
Is there any test specific to air cooled engines? (Harley Davidson, lawn care equipment). Two cycle would be very interesting also.
We are working on a 2 cycle test right now.
Of course the caveat to this testing is there is no pressure and combustion by products or heat and that can change everything!
That’s why don’t solely rely on bench tests like this. We always take what we learn in the lab and see if it repeats in the engine on the dyno.
I just wanted to add my 2 cents, I feel that the reason your wear went WAY down by changing the oil, because your experiment does not represent a real life situation, you are pumping the same contaminated oil full will wear particles on top of your surface being tested, while an engine will pump it back to the top after being filtered with an oil filter that removes particles down to 25-30 microns.
To be fair, for your experiments to have comparable results, your oil needs to go through a similar filtration first.
Unless I miss the part where you said that the oil was being filtered, then I apologize.
Have you done any testing with a wpc treated cylinder wall?
My neighbor tells me the hone grit for chromemolly rings is the roughest stone you can use in the hone. I'm just going to wait and see how this works out.
Don't do it! He's punking you. Cm needs 280-320 grit... straight chrome may need a rougher surface
This sounds awesome but how do one get to have such tech in his own engine/bulid?
We incorporate this technology into all of AP Steel ring sets, and we provide the correct guidance on honing to achieve the right surface finishes.
More tribology please! 😀
Alright!
What, if any, does hot vs cold temps have on wear.
Side note: why do car manufacturers not run an electric oil prelube prior to start up? Or, atleast have that option available via toggle switch?
Temperature does affect oil flow, which in turn affects wear.
Lake Speed Jr., David Vizard bought in to a company called Oil Extreme. He swore that the anti wear additive they use, calcium phosphonate, is the latest and greatest anti wear additive. What are your thoughts on this?
We’ve tested that product before in actual engines and have never seen positive results. Calcium based additives compete against the other additives in the oil so it can help some oils but hurt others. Without used oil analysis, you won’t know if it is helping or hurting.
Oil Extreme is way better than anything on the market.... If Your Oil needs it.
Brilliant on flat tappet camshafts, Rings and Bores.
Oil Extreme has fixed many, many CVT's around the World..... Just pour it.... The transmission will just start to work properly.
No need to by a new CVT.
@@TotalSeal My Engine Builder now Swears by Oil Extreme..... Really helps Ring Seal
How does cross hatch angle 30 - 45 degrees affect the outcome?
Great question! Cross hatch angle is all about oil transport up and down the cylinder - you need to have oil at the right place, at the right time and in the right amount.
Because this test is horizontal in a bath of oil, changing the cross hatch angle doesn’t matter. Changing the surface roughness does.
@Total Seal, Lake Speed jr.
have you guys ever tested the nano lube product called Turbo Maxx?
I saw that you were not a fan of David Vizard’s oil additive, and do not recommend people playing chemist.
I’m really impressed with it’s ability to reduce steel on steel wear though.
We've never tested TurboMaxx. If the steel on steel wear protection was measured on any device other than an engine, it is not a valid test for an engine lubricant. We are going to do a detailed video that explains why.
So, Who's Fuel Additive is the "BEST" to Use for a Gasoline Engine????
The ones that contain Poly Ether Amine (PEA) are good.
Try bonding a lubricant to the piston and bore.
Both wear and friction decrease by 50~90% or more
🙂#XcelPlus
I find it weird, that the manufacturer of my motorcycle recommends its own oil with ~170mg/kg Mo, but in the same sentence of the owner's manual they prohibit the usage of Moly additives, because it destroys certain coatings in the engine. What's the deal here? Are they willingly sacrificing the engine coating for lower friction over time, to meet their mpg targets?
There are different types of Molybdenum compounds, so they may be utilizing a specific compound that works synergistically with another additive in their oil.
Have you added the variable of oil temperature to the testing mix?
Yes, that is one of the variables we can control.
Just what oil brands did you experiment with ??? I use Amsoil Signature series oils..
We are not endorsing any brands of oil, so we will not reveal which brands were used in these tests. We will say the API SP 5W-30 is a full synthetic oil, and the Break-in oil is a conventional oil. Both are leading brands in their respective areas.
Hey speed i always wondered how much friction valve stem seals create and since you're the oil guy have you dealt with that or just piston rings
We’ve not dealt with valve stem seals.
@@TotalSeal In the case of the umbrella seals used on most OHV engines, none. For OHC an insignificant amount.
So what is the answer? What is the coating? What is the bore finish? What oil? No answers in this video.
The CrN coated ring worked the best, but we are working on a new coating that we will show the comparison for in the next video. The 170 grit Diamond with the 600 grit CBN hone did better than the straight 325 grit Diamond. Also, the break-in oil reduced break-in wear compared to the off-shelf oil.
Confusing .. not clear
It is counter intuitive.
I put a lot of money in a big block. Yes high volume oil pump. How much zince zddp do I need to add each oil change or not?
We don’t recommend using additives. Just use a high zinc oil.
Got a question..with the new SP rated oils....i read that timing chain ware was a issue....what did they do to improve timing chain ware in new oils over the last version...?
Great question! The new API SP oils feature a different dispersant additive to help prevent soot induced timing chain wear in direct injection engines.
@@TotalSeal Thanks....you guys are the best...
Do your rings have square edges? It seems a small 10 degree ramp would get the ring "up on the oil" quicker than a square edge.
No, the rings have a barrel profile on the face for the very reason you were thinking about.
Can someone please please please explain to me how less tention rings differ from normal worn-out rings ,I'm not being arogant but I really want to learn something , because I found all the new VW engines with lower tention rings suffer from oil burning
tension
A worn out ring has lost the face profile and texture. It really has very little to do with tension. A low tension ring with a harder face coating will last much longer than a conventional ring, which features a softer face coating.
@@TotalSeal so what is up with VW newer model cars like 2.0 t that's starts using oil with the standard Lo tention rings on about 50,000miles but if you put standard tention rings in the oil CONSUMPTION seems to go away , also I have a set of HASTINGS CHROME RINGS WHAT HONE FINISH SHOULD I GO FOR
AND THANK YOU FOR ACTUALLY TAKING THE TIME TO TALK TO ME
So that is a low tension oil ring, which is different from the tension of the top rings.
To your question, the factory oil ring tension is so low that it begins consuming oil when the tension drops further due to use.
We have “low” tension oil rings that are higher tension than the factory rings for this very reason.
In regards to the hone finish, check out our other videos. We get into great detail in the honing video’s and track side tech talks.
@@TotalSeal that really makes alot of sence thank you so much
One last thing do you have agents in SOUTH AFRICA FOR TOTAL SEAL AS I MIGHT WANT TO TRY YOU'RE RINGS IN AN TRACK APPLICATION
Why would the top of the cylinder bore have less wear kuz of lubrication? Does oil get to the top? Maybe it's the wrist pin pushing to the side more lower in the stroke.
The top of the cylinder has more wear than the middle of the cylinder because of the lower sliding speed and higher pressure at the top.
In the experiment , the parameters of oil pressure / tolerance of metal to metal / temperature of engine / Load of engine / dirt of filter , e.t.c ...........!!!!!!!!!!
And all the sudden we need every synthetic oil, new and used, tested on this machine.
That would be fun!
Now we are getting down to it. Hey Siri looking for a OE engine problem to solve, I've got a good one for you.
Thanks!
What kind of coating on the rings?
The coating is CrN, which is a PVD type coating.
@@TotalSeal 👍👍😁
Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 TRUMP
Wasn’t Andy Rae your brother in law. What happened to him?
Which ring coatings reduced wear ?
The PVD applied CrN coating reduced wear. Then we tried another coating not shown in the video that did even better!
14 minutes of video, and still no real information. Which oils? Which additives? What ring coatings? ???
There is more to come in this video series.
I thought ICP was not the best technology for used oil analysis (RDE is better) or in this case it works well enough and doesn't matter?
While RDE detects a wider range of particle sizes, ICP is still a reliable method, especially for a test like this.
@@TotalSeal Is it because this is a lab test where the particles are uniform in size and elemental composition?
@@MegaMajormax The elemental composition was a very narrow range, and the particle distribution was small. As such, either method was sufficient.
I search TotalSeal’s page and Cannot find the first video!
Here you go: ua-cam.com/video/1saWPRHdpwM/v-deo.html
Thanks!
That’s great information in that first video.
I got a question if someone can help me . What would the best oil and additive for use in Demolition Derby car engines? In the past i choose a 20/40 and Slick50. Thanks for any advice.
The only way to determine what is best for your application is using oil analysis (of the used oil) to guide the choice of viscosity and additive package.
@@TotalSeal well, it's pretty much ran to destruction, full loss of coolant, to the point the Paint's burnt off the cylinder heads, the pistons start melting or seizes up. Whats recommended for the Most extreme conditions? I'm a big fan of Slick50 but it's very expensive.
@@demolitionman9307 there is not a “best” oil. The application will always dictate the correct viscosity and chemistry needed. We would recommend checking out the Driven Racing Oil UA-cam channel for more tech videos related to oil.
@@TotalSeal thanks for that. Keep up the great Videos and wishing all the best in the future.
you can test a lot in a laboratory. but the reality is in the engine
Absolutely, which is why we verify everything we do in the lab on the engine dyno as well.
And all these tests do not actually duplicate the actual conditions in the running engine.
We know that, which is why we confirm (or deny) what we find in the lab with engine dyno testing.
@@TotalSeal I was talking to the general viewers who have not yet hit the often found engineering development wall of "It should work -->It HAS to work--> but It DOESN'T work" thing.
@@billshiff2060 Well said!
Lots of Theory on this video but no real information we can use
You can increase fluid/hydraulic friction while decreasing metal wear but you cannot increase metal friction while decreasing wear✅
Stay tuned...
Yes, you guys could probably tell us the real answer.
We will reveal all the key details in this video series.
Incomprehensible
We apologize if it got too technical.
Maybe it’s a compliment 😅
Content is great. Just can’t help my brain short circuiting with two people or more speaking at the same time.
The lab work is useful, but not a complete duplication of what happens in an engine. There you have loads from combustion pressure, heat and acid. What they're doing more closely resembles cam/lifter interaction. But cam/lifter only moves one direction. The ski analogy applies very well to plain bearings. They run on an oil film pulled into the bearing surface by motion. Which is why almost all of the bearing wear occurs at start up and shut down. This is not news.
What you learn in the lab can then be tested in an actual engine so see if it works.
That’s exactly why we also test these variables in real engines.
@@TotalSeal And you're doing it the right way. Lab testing is less expensive and lets you test more materials. The ones which show promise get tested in the more expensive real world conditions.
Without the chemically reactive high pressure combustion gases present, the in-lab oscillating ring/liner test is nearly totally irrelevant !!!
False presumption. There is strong correlation between this test and actual cylinder liner and ring friction and wear.
@@TotalSeal From ASTM G181............."This test method does not purport to simulate all aspects of a fired engine’s operating environment, but is intended to serve as a means for preliminary screening for assessing the frictional characteristics of candidate piston ring and liner material combinations in the presence of fluids that behave as use-conditioned engine oils. Therefore, it is beyond the scope of this test method to describe how one might establish correlations between the described test results and the frictional characteristics of rings and cylinder bore materials for specific engine designs or operating conditions.
This is the longest 14 minute video I've ever watched
Wow, either I must be stupid, because this really didn’t answer anything for me, or, this really didn’t answer anything.
OK enough of the chatter, we all know you're on to something good, so how about giving some specs and details that we can take away and use ?
There is more to come, but the CrN coated ring was the best performing ring in this test. The 170 grit diamond hone finished with a 600 grit CBN was the best hone, and the break-in oil did the best for wear.
@@TotalSeal Fantastic, thanks very much for the details. Interesting about the break-in oil though ? I thought that was usually to allow some wear for break-in before switching to an oil with a stronger film to minimize wear ? You're doing a great job here uncovering the stuff that really matters, keep up the great work.
I want all the answers now.... Haha
LOL
what
A quarter of an hour of talking about what you can do, without doing it, without any test shown, without any numbers, just holding a piece of metal up? 🤭😂
Hey guys, be makers, not talkers! 😉👍
Watch the first video and then come back and catch all the results. All of the final outcomes are in the video.
@@TotalSeal Ok, thank you!
I'll do so today afternoon! 😃👍
Where is the video? What is it called?
Agreed - total clickbait title. The title says "Two SIMPLE Engine Tricks Change Everything!", but the video doesn't say what the two "tricks" are or what they changed. And then in the comments they tell you to watch another video to find out - no thanks. Total Seal makes great rings - great videos, not so much 😒
Alkalirovani NAFTALIN je jedino resenje...20% u bilo kom ulju daje neverojatne rezultate...
This video is a mess: little info & a lot of yapping & disorder
STLE
!!!
More concerned about acting cool not easy to watch