Really enjoying the discussion in the comments! Some really good points being made. So much more detail I could have gone into but didn't want the video to go on too long. Will keep you all updated. As I said in the video, I'm no longer pro the idea of making the SPA a voluntary membership. We simply put the Covent Garden rules in place as a starting point and from there are having discussions about it. I don't turn people away from the pitch, ever. :)
StevenBridges Hey Steven. Gotta say I’m fan, but do not agree with the SPA idea one bit. Here’s why - Honestly, I read the guidelines and I don’t think the purpose is to keep the sound levels down (or crowd management). The strikes for going over time or for double queuing. I read this and it translates to there are too many performers and to little time (or spots) so let’s regulate who gets to perform (and how and where) So the get two people to vouch for you clause, now sounds like seeking permission - kinda like a cartel. Also, I didn’t hear any good reasons for saying ‘the authorities shouldn’t be involved...like why not?’ (I reiterate, SPA seems like it’s set-up to tackle just ‘anybody and everybody’ performing - it’s regulating who can perform, where they can perform and when they can perform. What if a non-busker just wants to do some street magic on the weekends and earn some money on the side?)
Totally valid points. The over running thing is purely set in place to make sure everyone stays within time which is fair for everyone. What we find is that often people will queue for hours to perform, but lots of performers over run throughout the day. And the person at the end of the queue sometimes loses their whole show (not allowed to perform after 9pm with an amp). So the over-running thing was put in place to stop that. BUT, saying all that. I am now pushing to eliminate mandatory membership to the SPA for reasons you and others have mentioned. The SPA should protect busking, but not limit the freedom of buskers. :)
wait i was about to click off of the video when you refered to busking as a job. um how is begging people for money on a street corner a job? the only difference is instead of washing a window your playing music...
@@umbreona4559 People pay for it. It's a service, Hence you are working, to provide a service, for remuneration. Its relatively informal, but that doesn't make it begging
This video wasn't just interesting, it was important. Definitely one of your best videos and I thank you for bringing this issue forward because this affects people's lives and how they earn a living. Although I do not know how to fix this issue, I thank you for making this video
Hey mate, honestly this seems like a perfectly reasonable idea - I think the main thing that would help quite a bit is to set up two things: One, a clear explanation of what benefits it has over the option of having the third party come in and have a legal license implemented by people who aren't 'in the know' about how busking works. Two, set up transparency of decision-making - make it clear what your requirements are to allow somebody to join, as well as the reasons you would refuse someone/kick them off. Make sure that there is accountability and transparency in decision-making now and in the future. Perhaps make sure that meetings and decisions are public or otherwise recorded so people can review the records of decisions about prospective members of the group as well as any possible policy changes in the future, especially to allow external input to exist (even if some has to be disregarded). Honestly, I've found that goes a huge way towards gaining trust of people in communities I've been in where I've been part of administrative teams - and it's always given me a good deal of security to see that an organization is open about their policies.
I always thought of street performing as kind of simple, don't get on peoples nerves and you're good, but after watching this I get the feeling it's a little more complicated than that lol. I hope you guys figure out how to sort all this out. THANK YOUUUUU
I think the SPA is the best solution. The alternative would be, as you said, licensing. If you keep the thing that says that performers who aren't members can perform on the weekends as long as they have two sponsors, and you don't make people pay or audition to join, I think the SPA should stay. The rules seem fairly straightforward and like things that people should keep in mind anyway.
i respect you being willing to talk about things like this. Its clear how much this matters to you and even though i have no idea how to remedy this how thing i hope for nothing but the best of luck that everything finds a way to work for everyone.
Having a self-governing SPA is not inherently bad. Perhaps simply signing up to join the SPA should be sufficient and less "cartel-ish". Sign up and agree to the covenants and you should be able to perform, even that very day without sponsors or auditions. After all, who says you are good enough to perform but the people who drop money in the hat? Break the rules (I think you said 2 strikes) and your membership is suspended for a period of time and then revoked (requiring being voted back in) if you are suspended "too often". Also, it seems that noise is the biggest complaint so maybe ask the Council to censure the specific performers who are repeatedly too loud and not condemn the entire group. Blocking traffic is also bad but probably could be managed similarly. You need the businesses to pull in the spectators and the businesses need you to keep the people around and occupied so they possibly then need to eat or drink at one of the establishments, so a symbiotic relationship is certainly in order.
Seems like your damned if you do damned if you don't. But I like how you're keeping an open mind and trying to work to please everyone takes a big person to stand up to that pressure so kudos Steven 👏
As somebody who's worked in security it boils my blood when I see guards grabbing people. I'd of lost my license for that, the whole point in needing a license is to drum into you not to man handle unless somebody's safety is at stake.
This is super interesting. I had always assumed that buskers must have some kind of union/group so that if the council tried to stop them at least they would all be on the same side against the power of the council. Maybe there are some things you need to iron out but, from an outsider, I think this is a great idea!
I think requiring a membership could come across as hypocritical and unfair. However just encouraging it may still work because those in the SPA could create a kind of checks and balance system. They could keep a look out for those who aren’t members by politely advising them if their performance could be seen as a nuisance. Plus just having the SPA rules around would probably raise more self awareness and mindfulness for buskers, who didn’t even realize something they were doing could be considered disruptive.
Yeah, I don't see where auditioning is necessary. The SPA could just say "These are the rules. Please make sure your performance adheres to them. If you're uncertain, we'd be happy to watch your performance and offer advice and suggestions on how to modify it if it doesn't comply." Then it's not auditioning, but just an opportunity for feedback.
The problem with your "own" rules is who is going to enforce them? And how? You can't tell a police officer "kick him out, he is not following our rules" because the made up rules aren't backed by a law/official regulation, so he can't do anything about it. And if you try to kick whoever breaks your rules by yourselves then you'll actually be no different from those that tried to kick you from other places when the law says you don't need their permission to perform in the first place...
Yeah you've pretty much highlighted the catch 22. We don't have the authority to enforce it. And if we enforce it anyway, how are we any better than people that have bullied me off the space.
Exactly. You summed up my thoughts in my own statement i just posted. Putting up new rules and a mandatory membership is fighting evil with another evil. It doesn't work and isn't fair.
The solution is simple: Create your SPA and run it the way you guys deem appropriate. However, do not require other performers to register with it. You have no say on what people can and can't do in a free space, short of breaking the law. However, if you have your SPA, you are responsible for all the people who register with it. Anyone who doesn't register with it is responsible for themselves. The only hurtle you would need to overcome is differentiating yourself from non-members in the eyes of the law. Also, a tangent: I don't agree with the busker's line of thinking about a privately owned public spaces. A privately owned space might grant public access, but that doesn't automatically constitute that all public laws apply in the same way. For example, I can give the public access to walk through my house in order to take a short cut across the neighborhood, but I would still have control over how the public behaves within my private premises.
Think you've nailed it with your solution! Very interesting points regarding the privately owned public space. I would say that your space isn't a public highway. It's your private property that you let people through on occasion. But I think that's a different thing (in my opinion - I know it's complicated)
Very interesting. I can see how busking life can be difficult at times (I just play guitar on the street sometimes). I let the ad run through again and I'm going to try and book your show when it comes out! Dr BEN.
I don’t know the laws in the UK, so I am going to not comment on legalities. I’ll just ask a question. IF anyone can use a public space in a reasonable way and they are a member of your group thing, how do you enforce the rules? It seems your group has no more authority than a private individual would to regulate.
I found this very interesting and well explained as I understood it. I think that buskers shouldn't have to audition but should sign up and get a kind of permit thing to allow the council to track down those who are getting complaints so others don't get affected and to make it more manageable without dictating what people are allowed to perform.
It's pretty simple: You can't fight one evil with another evil. Making it mandatory to become a member of anything before you can perform is taking away people's legal rights. Keeping peoples rights intact is a more serious and important cause than finding an easy solution to the problem. You can't just decide it's okay to cut people's rights because you think it helps you to quickly "solve" a problem. In reality, you're just being used by and instrumental to the council. I would hate to come to London and have someone come up to me asking for my SPA member card when there's not even a legal prerequisite to be a member in order to perform. Nahh, sorry but you have to find another solution, other wise you've just become the council's tool. Why not keep it simple ? When someone turns up their amp to loud, just have someone go to them and ask them to turn it down a bit. What you could do is make it mandatory for any performer there to play loudness guard for 30 minutes or so in their break or before/after their show. Problem solved.
Love this guy follow the rules or licence is next by the council.Dont be a problem,when preforming your act.Nothing with all due respect gets in the way of business,or progress.
General problem of the commons (non-owned/public spaces). I really appreciate how you're trying to come up with a community solution, rather than relying on the big hammer of the municipal government.
Sounds like a blacklist backed by the council might solve your problems - they ban troublesome buskers as they pop up specifically, leaving the rest of the innocent buskers alone
It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that there have been numerous times where me and fellow friends have been told by authorities we needed a license to perform music on the street so I'm not sure what to believe if I'm honest.
I think that it is a good idea but that anyone should be able to join and vote on the rules and that instead of being kicked out by the other members the council could rule on whether you get punished for your actions.
I'm only hearing your side of course, but this sounds like a really solid idea. I can see how it could be a cartel like thing, but the alternative sounds worse. I doubt if the government would be as nice.
That's a complicated issue. You could go half-way into the law, by getting a law behind you that every street performer must be a part of this organization to perform.
i would definitely prefer what you are offering, where i live (Gronignen in the Netherlands) we have to pay a 40€ per year licence where we are only allowed to play for 15 minutes at a time then we have to move somewhere between 50 to 100 metres away... oh and you need special permission to be amplified
1) While it might be a lot less formal, from watching your videos it seems like there is already an SPA of sorts in place. For example, you have a queuing system, right? What happens if someone wants to jump the queue? How could that apply to making sure other performers follow whatever rules you / the group overall want them to follow? 2) I can't imagine that the sound levels won't have to be very carefully codified (this level at this distance) because one person's acceptable will not be the same as another. 3) I do wish you luck, but from my (admittedly limited so far) experience, some buskers are not the best at realizing that compromises would be better for everyone, and so will rebel until laws are put in place and make it worse for everyone. 4) Is it possible to become a member of the SPA, or at least join the group, in advance? I would be interested in following the discussions because I'm going to approach some organizations where I am (NY) so would be interested to begin with, but I do also plan on getting to London at some point, so think it would be good for visitors to be able to join in advance. Good Luck!
StevenBridges Hey Steven. Gotta say I’m fan, but do not agree with the SPA idea one bit. Here’s why - Honestly, I read the guidelines and I don’t think the purpose is to keep the sound levels down (or crowd management). The strikes for going over time or for double queuing. I read this and it translates to there are too many performers and to little time (or spots) so let’s regulate who gets to perform (and how and where) So the get two people to vouch for you clause, now sounds like seeking permission - kinda like a cartel. Also, I didn’t hear any good reasons for saying ‘the authorities shouldn’t be involved...like why not?’ (I reiterate, SPA seems like it’s set-up to tackle just ‘anybody and everybody’ performing - it’s regulating who can perform, where they can perform and when they can perform. What if a non-busker just wants to do some street magic on the weekends and earn some money on the side?)
This SPA sounds like an amazing idea! One thing I have to say is: it needs a different name. I think LSGSPB is decent - Leicester Square Guild of Street Performers and Buskers. The only reason I suggest this is because it uses the word “Guild”, which is a word that I absolutely love...
It seems either the council will impose limits on people or your SPA will. At least with your system you have the control, which understandably might make some people uneasy. Complicated issue.
What you do is create your official group. Once this is done, and you have your guidelines completed, you make it official with an ID card as well as a placard or small sign to stick up next to your amp or equipment. This will tell people you are a part of this group that has guidelines to follow and you are willing to follow them to keep, among others, the local businesses happy. You then hold everyone to the guidelines VERY STRICTLY. This is all marketing at this point. Make the businesses see that the people in your group are the kinds of performers the businesses WANT to have. You hold people in the area, they take a better look around, maybe they venture into a few stores, and perhaps make a purchase. You have to force the businesses to see this, and you simply do that by talking to them. Just a quick, "hello." Become friends with the local business owners. Make sure they know who's in the group and who's not. Over time the businesses and police officers will learn that people in your group are well meaning, law abiding, cooperative persons, and a joy to have around. Other's will want your group's "seal of approval." It may not be nice, but if a person gets complaint after complaint you have two options: (1) get rid of them, or don't let them in the group in the first place. Or (2) the group gets together to help this person become a better performer, still doing what they enjoy, but doing it better or in a better location. That's my ideas. Hope it helps. P.S. - you can't please everyone. And it sounds like the businesses/council are going to license you one way or another.
Very interesting video. I stopped by Leicester Square a few weeks ago and saw the SPA sign near the entrance of the square where there used to be the schedule and wondered what was going on. Great to get an explanation here whilst also getting a deeper insight into the complex - but fascinating - legalities of street performing. Thanks, Steven! :D Also, good to see you after your show last Tuesday! ^__^
It seems the middle ground would be for the council to recognize the SPA as the governing body, delegating its authority for the street performers to self-regulate.
I think what you are trying to do is a really great idea. It does not seem that you would be governing public space because this kind of group would simply be an agreement to not cause problems. You are not making laws and enforcing them. You are working together to try and agree to standards that will continue to allow buskers to work. Keep doing what you are doing. I have always been a fan of how calm and rational you are when facing controversy. Good luck.
I don’t know if it’s an Italian way of saying, but we say that one’s freedom ends where another person’s freedom begins, which is another way of saying you’re free, but not completely free, and not free to harm/hurt/go against someone else’s freedom. I find very wrong that many buskers see their freedom as untouchable, and therefore do not want regulations on their job. I can’t understand it. I understand that regulations can be wrong or eccessive, but I cannot understand this total rejection of any form of regulation. So I would totally support your idea and totally agree with you, regulations on busking could benefit everybody if made by someone who knows how that job works! I’m Italian, I don’t really know how things work in England, but that’s how I see things 😁
I think there is a middle ground to be considered. Something along the lines of a 'Friends of Leicester Square' society. Rules should be replaced by an ethos; this helps to include people who would be considered more 'anti-establishment' that the average layman. The idea of sponsored membership by other members is still a good approval system, and members should actively display their membership to show they are sensitive to the issues concerning busking in that area. It also sounds like the council need to be educated about the few who do not share the same respect for acceptable performance, and a method of self reporting of issues would help to maintain good relationships witht he council and stave off any licensing agreements.
I think the SPA you comment about it's a really good idea, here in Mexico City there's nothing like that (that I'm aware of) and there's a loooooooooooooooot of places to perform here in the city. I've heard that in some of those places, performers have to pay actual criminals and crime leaders to be able to perform. Personally I usually perform at to of the city's most important landmarks and overall I have no problem with authorities, actually I'm friends with the polices around there. But yeah, I would really love that there's something as a SPA here :D
Just because there is no fence, private land is private is it not? I guess I could be wrong but I didn't think a fence was required to keep someone your land your own.
It's as you said, they are painting you with the same brush, not looking at you as individual buskers. That is what started this, sadly them having money makes them more "powerful". Can't the council say, well if you can't be more specific about who did the thing you have complains about then we can't help you? I'm probably missing some important points otherwise that could have been a solution that people would've already thought about.
It's a great idea. I would hate to see the council get into something like this. I think your best persuasive component is just telling buskers that this is a way to make sure that buskers can still do what they do. If the council gets into this, it could compromise many acts.
1. You are ALWAYS better off designing your own rules accepted by the council than following their pre-set rules. 2. The S.p.a. will of course not fit EVERYBODY as of the nature of busking, not all people are the same, BUT there is always room to adapt where possible. Here I'd say, a better tradeoff as purely restrictive regime. 3. The S.p.a. will not grip legally. It is a nice "asking your friends to calm down in the club" whereas if you leave it to the council, it's more like a "OK dude, we're leaving the club already!....sheesh..." since you're then legally enforced to oblige or perish (well busking-wise). It's a gentlemen's agreement. In any ways I wish you good luck and success (this should be doable bro!) Let us know what happens!
really interesting and important discussion steven!! awesome video! yeah i think restricting it too much is definitely a bad thing but if the SPA is a lovely place and people in it aren't restricting of street performers in the wrong kind of way and setting up a community is the only way to get around a license (which would be a lot more restricting) i think the SPA is probably the best thing to do?? it's complicated as you said, but yeah, v interesting!! :D I hope everything goes v well!!
I really get where you're coming from and I think the basic idea is a good one. I think having buskers self-regulate is far better than a law by the council, and has a better chance at avoiding censorship of acts. I also kind of get where the buskers were coming from, especially if they weren't from the local area and read the post you made when they weren't familiar with the particular situation. It'd be pretty easy to miss the one line of "the council are loosing patience" and get angry about the "you must be a member to perform" part. That kind of misunderstanding happens a lot online. I'm not a busker myself, and almost everything I know about busking is from your videos, but from what you've shown me of the culture there think a compulsory membership is going to be a tough sell to buskers. Also not a lawyer, but I think they may have an argument that what you're planning to do is illegal. The council has the legal authority to make rules about what is allowed in a public space. You don't. Even though what you're planning to do is less (or at worst equally) authoritarian than what the council were proposing, and a reasonable person with familiarity with the situation might think what you're doing is legitimate and preferable, the 1980s highways act probably wouldn't see it that way. If you're telling people who are currently not breaking any laws that they can't make reasonable use of a public space, that could be a problem. (not a lawyer, haven't read the Act, don't know whether it has provision for prosecuting civilians telling other civilans to piss off) Suggestions: *remove the mandatory membership in order to perform (it could be hard to get people to believe this is the case becuase they will remember that it was once compulsory and may harbour resentment) *if a member believes another busker (member or not) is too loud, politely suggest they reduce volume. If they are unfamiliar with the council situation explain/remind them that being too loud could result in busking in the area *remove the audition tape requirement, or be way more transparent about why it's there and what criteria people will be judged by (if you're being vouched for by two other people, wouldn't they be qualified to say that you're a good act?) *consider having the leaders of the organisation be elected by members *think about how this will work if it continues years into the future. What happens if the current leaders get bored/tired/too busy? Who will take over? *If this continues years into the future, how easy will it be for newcomers to busking to become a member? How can you prevent elitism and cliques? How does a person gain the respect of two existing members to back their membership if they're not allowed to perform until they have a membership? If you have auditions, do you really need member backing? How can you make sure the auditions process doesn't shut out beginners? Final main suggestions: *Try to position yourselves as the (elected) representatives of the local busking community. Avoid enforcing rules. If you can't get noise level down by suggestion and voluntary change, and the coucil loose patience: *try to get the council to agree that your scheme looks legit, and the reason it didn't work is because you can't legally enforce it. You care about noise level and reducing community friction. Buskers are the experts on busking and any local laws about it should be made with the involvement of the busking community. Try to be involved with any consultations the council try to run. *Argue for rules that only restrict noise level (maybe to a specific number of decibels), and nothing else about the performance. *When it's time for local elections, try to meet with prospective candidates from different parties (and any independents) and see who would agree with you that buskers should be free to perform as long as their noise level is reasonable and they are within the Highways Act. Distribute information about candidates attitudes to busking, and encourage buskers to engage in local politics in line with whatever their beliefs and priorities might be. *Laws can be changed. If the council makes a law that restricts busking, that's not the end of the story. It might be possible to get that law overturned if you can build enough political pressure against it.
I just watched your video, and found it very interesting. To introduce myself, I am a singer, and I am 74-years old. So you could say I've "been around." I'd like to add my two cents to the conversation, if I may. First, when busking was in its infancy, it was so new that there were little to no restrictions regarding performing ANYWHERE. But now ( in part due to the total destruction of the global economy through this Covid-19 madness, in my opinion), there is so much competition, that some sort of regulation eventually HAS to be enacted, in my opinion. Although I am singer, I am not particular as what kinds of performing should be allowed, but I am quite annoyed by having to listen to performers who are SO AWFUL AND AMATEURISH, that simply listening to them is akin to be broiled over a slow flame... they are simply so difficult to listen to that they are totally incapable of playing anywhere BUT on the street, for free. I know this may sound a bit harsh, but this is the reality of performing as a professional, and whenever people are paying you money, I consider that a large part of being considered "a pro." This, of course, does not apply to the homeless, in which giving them money amounts to simple charity. As I live in New York City, our subway system (your "underground") known as the MARTA, has created a more visible example of this by instigating an audition system in order to play here, although it DOES NOT apply to performing above ground (that is up to any area in which a busker performs-but the most profitable places remain the subway). In any case, I believe that today, with the myriad problems we are encountering worldwide, this topic MUST be addressed in some sort of cohesive, intelligent way, lest our the entire field be filled to the brim with performers who, by anyone's standards, are simply not fit to perform publicly. I call this phenomenon "Noise Pollution, " and I think that any honest street performer knows EXACTLY what I'm talking about. There must be a standard to which everyone must adhere to, and that includes street performers, and although I fully understand that many of our freedoms are being reduced, alas, I believe that something like you propose had to happen, eventually. That said, I would be more than happy to audition for your organization, anytime, any place. I wish you all the best, and Merry Christmas!!!
An interesting conundrum. I don't really think it'd be possible for you to bar people from performing, since your authority is sort of arbitrary, but the association is definitely worth keeping. I'd suggest a positive incentive to keep the rules, as opposed to a negative one; instead of punishing those who break the guidelines, you could reward those who do (with exposure maybe, I don't really know what buskers would find enticing) and try and police it yourselves as far as possible - maybe when a busker is being antisocial, a member could be dispatched to encourage the offender to observe the association's rules so that everyone benefits. Keep it loose and friendly though, it sounds like your community wouldn't appreciate an organisation that's too authoritarian in its nature. Thank you Steven, that video has given me some excellent food for thought. Good luck!
I think you need a set of rules that will be followed in order to save the livelihood of the group. However, the irony is that in trying to avoid implementing licences, you implemented licenses. Lol.
I'm considering busking in Leicester square playing a recorder. How long do you think is fair to perform on a pitch and how much can a musician get in tips roughly for performing in an hour for example?
This is quite an issue that you're trying to sort out, Steven! Good on you for tackling it, too. I think if you're going to require people to be members of your group in order to perform, that is very similar to required licensing by the council. Either way, a person has to meet certain guidelines before they can perform in a public space, which may make them feel like their personal freedoms are being infringed upon. I can see how that may upset some people. I also get why you'd rather have buskers set the guidelines than the city council, as your rules are likely to be more understanding of buskers' needs. It's a difficult needle to thread. Another way to approach this issue is to look at it from the local business owners' perspective. They pay money to rent their spaces (or less likely, own their spaces) and work there in the square, even though they're also citizens. In contrast, the buskers feel they have a right to work there and pay nothing for that space. Ok, maybe that seems fair to the buskers, but should the buskers not at least show some common decency and respect to the business owners who are paying to have their businesses there? The business owners have a right to complain if your work is driving away their customers. Most businesses must also own licenses to operate their businesses in the first place, so I think the way to "sell" the idea of membership into your group is that if you want to work in Leicester Square, this is really the bare minimum requirement of doing business there. Be civil. Be courteous. Don't allow your work to impair other people's work. Act like the professional you're claiming to be as a busker. I've seen your posts where people criticize buskers as basically being panhandlers looking for a handout. I think maybe the lack of professional courtesy is where some of those complaints originate, along with the expectation of being able to work without paying any dues like other business people must. I've never been to Leicester Square, so I do not know, but is it possible some buskers act like beggars instead of business people? Do they fail to extend courtesy to their fellow business people in the area and keep the noise levels down? Do they dress appropriately to not scare off customers (i.e. not look like beggars)? Do they give way so people can come and go as they please through the square to shop without being obstructed? These are points you can raise with your fellow buskers to help them understand why these complaints shouldn't be ignored just because they want their "personal freedom" to work as they please. In any society, certain concessions are made so the whole can get along. Ask them why they want to perform in Leicester Square in the first place, rather than in a field on the city's edge or maybe some city park with no businesses around it. Could it be because the established business owners there draw people to the square in the first place who have money to pay the buskers for their performances? I would think so. If that's the case, why bite the hand that feeds you? Why anger the business owners who have paid for their licenses, their property, their employees, and for marketing to get people to frequent the square? Their hard work contributes greatly to your much smaller business succeeding in that location. If you put it in this way, the other buskers might agree that membership is a useful way of showing your willingness to cooperate with the businesses there, and it's a way of showing respect to them for their contributions to the work you're doing. I think your busker's membership program is a great idea, Steven, and I wish you the best of luck and future success with your endeavor! :)
Really interesting thoughts Jamie! Thanks for sharing :) I think some buskers would resent even dressing well because to them it's still their personal choice. Where as I am more of the view that 'not dressing super scruffy directly benefits my show'. Most buskers I know do respect the businesses. We're talking about the minority here that don't respect the businesses. I would say though, people go to Covent Garden (for example) because it's an iconic location, has restaurants and nice shops, and street performers. The street performers are part of Covent's lure.
Ah, good to know! I'm an outsider looking in (clearly). I don't know the area over there at all. What are the rules (if any) to performing in Covent Garden? Maybe that would help you develop some for Leicester Square. I hope you find a way! :) Busking isn't really allowed in public spaces in most of Texas; usually a business owner has to grant someone permission to perform on their personal property instead. I lived in Austin for a while, and public performing was allowed there, but I can't remember anyone getting paid to perform. People just did it for the experience / practice back then. I know some musicians busk in Austin these days, but I don't know if any other performers get paid to perform publicly there. I've never seen public performances on the streets here in Dallas. I think the police would arrest them for creating a public disturbance (if they didn't get city permission first). : /
Wouldn't the simplest solution be to talk to the council about having the S.P.A. as the official representatives for the Square? Instead of introducing licensing legislation, create a law that installs the S.P.A. as the governing body... made up of the street performers who perform there. The idea being that no one would require a license to perform, but would be required to go through the S.P.A. to schedule their time slots and shows. They would also be held accountable to the S.P.A. guidelines for performing in the area and breaking them would leave them with a council fine.
It seems to be that with the issues that have happened with the council, buskers are now in a spot where they will be dictated to or have to be licensed regardless, and that the current issue is who is in charge of the rules, the council or the buskers. I think that's what the angry responses on the facebook post maybe didn't get, things have already changed and this SPA is buskers at least setting the guidelines themselves. It's a compromise, sure, but it seems that if a busker isn't part of the SPA, they're then subject to the council rules and therefore cant be as protected and will continue to face grief from security and police officers. You've shown in previous videos the daily sign up sheet for performance time slots at your busking location. Is that just a courtesy thing or are all performers for that area required to sign in for a performance time? If that was the accepted way things run there or even mandatory, maybe by signing in for a performance you're agreeing to these rules? The rules the SPA are suggesting seem more than rational, so maybe the problem is more a fight against the man? It seems complicated enough to figure out from a buskers POV, let alone anyone else. All in all is so important to be having the conversation and trying to solve the problems you're facing rather than just letting things happen themselves.
Idk if it's privately owned but used as a public space to walk through, then they should still have the right to kick them off of the property. It's like how if a person has a bonfire with open invite byob type vibe on their land, they can kick you out if they want even though it's "somewhat public"
How about not have the requirements to audition and be recommended by two people. What if someone wants to start out and doesn’t know two people already in the group? Makes it impossible. People should join, follow the rules, they don’t follow the rules they get kicked out which means they can’t perform. That sounds a good option to me
Hmm... "You own private property that you allow people on, we can do whatever we want here" "Government wants to make laws on the things we do, government is the problem"
I think your idea of SPA is good. The thing is you can only aware people of the rules and laws of busking created by the government. I think the best thing to do is to make that committee. I know some people will be angry but the thing is in that committee everybody will follow the guidelines and laws such as noise control, effective use of public spaces etc. This will make things easier for street performers. For the people who won't be the part of the commitee, if found guilty won't be getting any help from you commitee anf then there will be not much hassle for the commitee members. This will save them too. So just register that commitee and best of luck. Thaaaannkkkk Yooooouuuu!
While I think a performers’ association is a good idea in some aspects, and is probably the right way to do things in the end, it is a valid concern that the regulation of performances by an interested body would risk there being abuse of that power, and the devolution of that power to local government is a way to minimise that risk. It may be worth considering the audition process a more open system, and that people should be allowed to perform in the space as a part of or an option for their audition, to keep the busking scene open and allow people to benefit from the space. Dedicated audition times should be written in to sign up sheets, only to be filled in the absence of anyone seeking to audition on the day, this would make sure there isn’t a total lockout from new blood. The sponsorship is also a good idea from the frame of mind of keeping people, to the rules, but it also closes the area off if you don’t know the regular busking scene, and could lead to the “cartel”attitude, so an alternative entry method could be considered, where their personal stake would be increased temporarily until members are willing to vouch for them once they know they are willing to follow the rules. Also, I know this isn’t a super prevalent issue, but what happens if someone refuses to join, and continues to perform. How would you deal with that? Disrupting their shows seems very cartel-y, but it’s also difficult to judge another way of keeping things fair, as they could crank their amp louder than the spa member who was scheduled to perform, and irritate businesses and kill the crowds. This is the issue I can’t solve that I do think is a fair criticism.
How about instead of only allowing people within the SPA to perform, you allow everyone to perform provided they sign a document saying that they’ll agree to the set rules? That way you avoid the elitist membership argument, but still have rules to hold people to if need be. From the sound of it, people are arguing against the SPA, not against the rules themselves, and if you ensure that it’s clear on whatever document they sign that it’s to avoid licensing, then maybe that would work 😊
Yeah apparently 'unreasonable' is an actual term the council etc use. Unreasonable would be something that's causing a nuisance or stopping the businesses from operating. But it's impossible to define a specific volume because even a DB reading has major problems.
Have you considered forming an activist group rather than this SPA thing? It would be a volunteer based busking association that regularly meets to discuss ways to improve public relations between businesses and buskers. Members would be expected to make an effort to educate problem buskers on the issues that you all are facing. For example, if someone has their music too loud, members would be expected to politely approach them and inform them why they should keep the volume down. The group could use donations to print educational flyers and pamphlets that members can hand out to new buskers detailing the common things that cause businesses to complain to the authorities. You wouldn't have any real authority, but you should be able to make a noticeable impact on problematic buskers in the area. This could also help to build a sense of trust and community with the local businesses. If you can find a way to improve relations enough, the businesses may be inclined to take the extra step to be more specific in their complaints about disruptive buskers.
amazing video :) I would not be for any of the solutions, but these are the solutions. Either licensed or SPA. SPA seems better version of it. :) Thumbs up :)
I think it's a really good idea, but not sure if it would really work... Based on just how many times you said "you're allowed to make reasonable use of a public space" in this video, I'm guessing anyone who isn't a member could use that if you said they needed a membership to perform on certain days.... But if somehow you could get performers to sign something saying that they will follow the rules you have set up, that gives you ground to tell them to go if they are being too loud or doing anything that'd get complaints (and from your explanation, I take it that it is part of the law that you should not be a nuisance, so they can't use the "reasonable use of a public space" arguement)
Perhaps becoming a member should just be a simpler process, as requiring an audition video is like saying you all have to like their performance, when membership is really about making sure people follow the rules, which may be part of the intent of auditions, but I imagine as a performer it instead feels like you have to prove your worth.
Hmm. Maybe collaborate with a licensed and reputable lawyer if you haven't, and bring it up with the council directly, so that they can regulate your rules? Basically, it will give them the "authority" over you obeying the laws that they want, to the point of arresting people of multiple offenses if severe enough, and still allow you as the busking community, to watch each other's back and follow the guidelines, without the risk/fear of a cartel. The point comes down to that you shouldn't ignore complaints and criticism from people who don't like this, but you can't make everyone happy. I manage people every day, and something I learned is that people will complain, even when the situation is best. People want life without consequence, and the truth is that it's impossible. Every choice has a number of different consequences, good, bad, and in the middle, and all we can do is find the balance that decreases the risk of bad consequences as much as possible. I can play provocative music at work in my closed office when it's just me, and I'd love to play it louder, but the louder I play it, the more risk I have for someone to hear it outside the room, which increases the chance of someone being offended, which can lead to other management getting involved, which can make me fired. Instead of all that, I respectfully play it quietly, and pause it when someone walks in, or skip the songs altogether. Anyway, that was a bit of a tangent, but the point I was getting at, is that I'm compromising my wants with the needs of others, because otherwise I will be working without either. If it comes down to those people who don't want to compromise their wants, then unfortunately they're going to learn that life exists beyond themselves. If that makes them sad or upset, then they may just be selfish people who only think of themselves. Again, don't ignore those people, but know the difference between when people are trying to help everyone, or just themselves, and when the changes they suggest hurt more than help. Also, as a principle, ignore people who don't put in any input other than, "I DON'T LIKE THIS", because they are helping nothing, and will complain, no matter what the decision is. Hope this helps!
You need to form a Union to protect your livelihoods and reputations and to secure your future. You bring a lot of enjoyment to a wide variety of people. I've stopped quite a few times whenever I've been in Covent Garden to watch the performers and given as much money as I can but whenever passing through Leicester Square, I don't ever stay to watch the performances. If you were there I would because you're really good at what you do. Your card tricks leave me speechless. By the way, have you seen that Scottish thief lately? Has he stolen anymore clothes from shops? He tried justifying his act of theft by putting the blame onto the poor worker who made a mistake. Typical.
Honestly I am really not keen on the whole ‚you have to be a part‘-thing. To not refuse anyone‘s rights, I‘d suggest that this SPA will get known for what it is (by the authorities and others) so that you will never (or if, as a whole) get turned down, because everyone knows you are not the problem! PS: I‘m not a native speaker so if something‘s unclear, please ask!
You really have to be careful about making it too sticky to join your little group. Recommended by 2 current members and audition as well?. Someone might get the idea that your group is trying to limit potential performance competition. Seems like in theory it is a good way to help other performers have guidelines that need to be followed to keep city officials and business owners happy. One final comment, I believe it will be very difficult to enforce having to join or preventing a newcomer from doing the same thing that other buskers have done in the past without answering to a cartel. JMO Hope you get it sorted out.
Really enjoying the discussion in the comments! Some really good points being made. So much more detail I could have gone into but didn't want the video to go on too long. Will keep you all updated. As I said in the video, I'm no longer pro the idea of making the SPA a voluntary membership. We simply put the Covent Garden rules in place as a starting point and from there are having discussions about it. I don't turn people away from the pitch, ever. :)
StevenBridges Hey Steven. Gotta say I’m fan, but do not agree with the SPA idea one bit. Here’s why - Honestly, I read the guidelines and I don’t think the purpose is to keep the sound levels down (or crowd management).
The strikes for going over time or for double queuing.
I read this and it translates to there are too many performers and to little time (or spots) so let’s regulate who gets to perform (and how and where)
So the get two people to vouch for you clause, now sounds like seeking permission - kinda like a cartel.
Also, I didn’t hear any good reasons for saying ‘the authorities shouldn’t be involved...like why not?’
(I reiterate, SPA seems like it’s set-up to tackle just ‘anybody and everybody’ performing - it’s regulating who can perform, where they can perform and when they can perform. What if a non-busker just wants to do some street magic on the weekends and earn some money on the side?)
Totally valid points. The over running thing is purely set in place to make sure everyone stays within time which is fair for everyone. What we find is that often people will queue for hours to perform, but lots of performers over run throughout the day. And the person at the end of the queue sometimes loses their whole show (not allowed to perform after 9pm with an amp). So the over-running thing was put in place to stop that.
BUT, saying all that. I am now pushing to eliminate mandatory membership to the SPA for reasons you and others have mentioned. The SPA should protect busking, but not limit the freedom of buskers. :)
wait i was about to click off of the video when you refered to busking as a job. um how is begging people for money on a street corner a job? the only difference is instead of washing a window your playing music...
@@umbreona4559 People pay for it. It's a service, Hence you are working, to provide a service, for remuneration. Its relatively informal, but that doesn't make it begging
This video wasn't just interesting, it was important. Definitely one of your best videos and I thank you for bringing this issue forward because this affects people's lives and how they earn a living. Although I do not know how to fix this issue, I thank you for making this video
Hey mate, honestly this seems like a perfectly reasonable idea - I think the main thing that would help quite a bit is to set up two things:
One, a clear explanation of what benefits it has over the option of having the third party come in and have a legal license implemented by people who aren't 'in the know' about how busking works.
Two, set up transparency of decision-making - make it clear what your requirements are to allow somebody to join, as well as the reasons you would refuse someone/kick them off. Make sure that there is accountability and transparency in decision-making now and in the future. Perhaps make sure that meetings and decisions are public or otherwise recorded so people can review the records of decisions about prospective members of the group as well as any possible policy changes in the future, especially to allow external input to exist (even if some has to be disregarded).
Honestly, I've found that goes a huge way towards gaining trust of people in communities I've been in where I've been part of administrative teams - and it's always given me a good deal of security to see that an organization is open about their policies.
I always thought of street performing as kind of simple, don't get on peoples nerves and you're good, but after watching this I get the feeling it's a little more complicated than that lol. I hope you guys figure out how to sort all this out. THANK YOUUUUU
Yeah, as an individual it may be straightforward, but when another street performer is getting on people's nerves it can complicate rapidly.
I think the SPA is the best solution. The alternative would be, as you said, licensing. If you keep the thing that says that performers who aren't members can perform on the weekends as long as they have two sponsors, and you don't make people pay or audition to join, I think the SPA should stay. The rules seem fairly straightforward and like things that people should keep in mind anyway.
i respect you being willing to talk about things like this. Its clear how much this matters to you and even though i have no idea how to remedy this how thing i hope for nothing but the best of luck that everything finds a way to work for everyone.
I think allowing anyone to join the SPA as opposed to having 2 members back you makes sense. Good video
Having a self-governing SPA is not inherently bad. Perhaps simply signing up to join the SPA should be sufficient and less "cartel-ish". Sign up and agree to the covenants and you should be able to perform, even that very day without sponsors or auditions. After all, who says you are good enough to perform but the people who drop money in the hat? Break the rules (I think you said 2 strikes) and your membership is suspended for a period of time and then revoked (requiring being voted back in) if you are suspended "too often".
Also, it seems that noise is the biggest complaint so maybe ask the Council to censure the specific performers who are repeatedly too loud and not condemn the entire group. Blocking traffic is also bad but probably could be managed similarly.
You need the businesses to pull in the spectators and the businesses need you to keep the people around and occupied so they possibly then need to eat or drink at one of the establishments, so a symbiotic relationship is certainly in order.
Seems like your damned if you do damned if you don't. But I like how you're keeping an open mind and trying to work to please everyone takes a big person to stand up to that pressure so kudos Steven 👏
As somebody who's worked in security it boils my blood when I see guards grabbing people. I'd of lost my license for that, the whole point in needing a license is to drum into you not to man handle unless somebody's safety is at stake.
YES! Thank you! Such a shame when some security guards are doing the wrong thing and it's tarnishing the reputation of every security guard.
This is super interesting. I had always assumed that buskers must have some kind of union/group so that if the council tried to stop them at least they would all be on the same side against the power of the council. Maybe there are some things you need to iron out but, from an outsider, I think this is a great idea!
I think requiring a membership could come across as hypocritical and unfair. However just encouraging it may still work because those in the SPA could create a kind of checks and balance system. They could keep a look out for those who aren’t members by politely advising them if their performance could be seen as a nuisance. Plus just having the SPA rules around would probably raise more self awareness and mindfulness for buskers, who didn’t even realize something they were doing could be considered disruptive.
Yeah, I don't see where auditioning is necessary. The SPA could just say "These are the rules. Please make sure your performance adheres to them. If you're uncertain, we'd be happy to watch your performance and offer advice and suggestions on how to modify it if it doesn't comply." Then it's not auditioning, but just an opportunity for feedback.
The problem with your "own" rules is who is going to enforce them? And how? You can't tell a police officer "kick him out, he is not following our rules" because the made up rules aren't backed by a law/official regulation, so he can't do anything about it. And if you try to kick whoever breaks your rules by yourselves then you'll actually be no different from those that tried to kick you from other places when the law says you don't need their permission to perform in the first place...
Yeah you've pretty much highlighted the catch 22. We don't have the authority to enforce it. And if we enforce it anyway, how are we any better than people that have bullied me off the space.
Exactly. You summed up my thoughts in my own statement i just posted. Putting up new rules and a mandatory membership is fighting evil with another evil. It doesn't work and isn't fair.
this was so interesting and well-told. love hearing about london, and the life of buskers, and the perspective of buskers. great job, steven!
The solution is simple:
Create your SPA and run it the way you guys deem appropriate. However, do not require other performers to register with it. You have no say on what people can and can't do in a free space, short of breaking the law.
However, if you have your SPA, you are responsible for all the people who register with it. Anyone who doesn't register with it is responsible for themselves.
The only hurtle you would need to overcome is differentiating yourself from non-members in the eyes of the law.
Also, a tangent: I don't agree with the busker's line of thinking about a privately owned public spaces. A privately owned space might grant public access, but that doesn't automatically constitute that all public laws apply in the same way. For example, I can give the public access to walk through my house in order to take a short cut across the neighborhood, but I would still have control over how the public behaves within my private premises.
Think you've nailed it with your solution!
Very interesting points regarding the privately owned public space.
I would say that your space isn't a public highway. It's your private property that you let people through on occasion. But I think that's a different thing (in my opinion - I know it's complicated)
Steven - discovered your channel just recently and loving it. Kudos for the efforts you are making in honing your craft.
Very interesting. I can see how busking life can be difficult at times (I just play guitar on the street sometimes). I let the ad run through again and I'm going to try and book your show when it comes out!
Dr BEN.
Super interesting dude. Can't wait for the next videos
I don’t know the laws in the UK, so I am going to not comment on legalities. I’ll just ask a question. IF anyone can use a public space in a reasonable way and they are a member of your group thing, how do you enforce the rules? It seems your group has no more authority than a private individual would to regulate.
I found this very interesting and well explained as I understood it. I think that buskers shouldn't have to audition but should sign up and get a kind of permit thing to allow the council to track down those who are getting complaints so others don't get affected and to make it more manageable without dictating what people are allowed to perform.
It's pretty simple: You can't fight one evil with another evil. Making it mandatory to become a member of anything before you can perform is taking away people's legal rights. Keeping peoples rights intact is a more serious and important cause than finding an easy solution to the problem. You can't just decide it's okay to cut people's rights because you think it helps you to quickly "solve" a problem. In reality, you're just being used by and instrumental to the council. I would hate to come to London and have someone come up to me asking for my SPA member card when there's not even a legal prerequisite to be a member in order to perform. Nahh, sorry but you have to find another solution, other wise you've just become the council's tool. Why not keep it simple ? When someone turns up their amp to loud, just have someone go to them and ask them to turn it down a bit. What you could do is make it mandatory for any performer there to play loudness guard for 30 minutes or so in their break or before/after their show. Problem solved.
Great mate
That's the way to go, to keep the volume down and respect
Thank you! You are putting your neck out for the public good in the muddy waters. So much we have to do for creative performance.
Love this guy follow the rules or licence is next by the council.Dont be a problem,when preforming your act.Nothing with all due respect gets in the way of business,or progress.
General problem of the commons (non-owned/public spaces). I really appreciate how you're trying to come up with a community solution, rather than relying on the big hammer of the municipal government.
Sounds like a blacklist backed by the council might solve your problems - they ban troublesome buskers as they pop up specifically, leaving the rest of the innocent buskers alone
I remember when you guys where kicked off the streets of London!! Sad times... sad times...
It's not that I don't believe you, it's just that there have been numerous times where me and fellow friends have been told by authorities we needed a license to perform music on the street so I'm not sure what to believe if I'm honest.
Hope everything goes well regarding the issues with Busking and the Laws Steven! Waiting to see Part 2 😊😊.
Thanks Kabir will keep ya updated
Very informative Steven, nice one!
I think that it is a good idea but that anyone should be able to join and vote on the rules and that instead of being kicked out by the other members the council could rule on whether you get punished for your actions.
Very important video to help us understand all that, had no idea about many of those things!
I'm only hearing your side of course, but this sounds like a really solid idea. I can see how it could be a cartel like thing, but the alternative sounds worse. I doubt if the government would be as nice.
Yeah such a tricky one isn’t it. Doesn’t seem like there’s a good solution that won’t have some major drawbacks
That's a complicated issue. You could go half-way into the law, by getting a law behind you that every street performer must be a part of this organization to perform.
On the membership thing, it does seem sketchy, BUT if it's gonna keep everyone free and happy, it should be implemented.
i would definitely prefer what you are offering, where i live (Gronignen in the Netherlands) we have to pay a 40€ per year licence where we are only allowed to play for 15 minutes at a time then we have to move somewhere between 50 to 100 metres away... oh and you need special permission to be amplified
HE'S BACK
1) While it might be a lot less formal, from watching your videos it seems like there is already an SPA of sorts in place. For example, you have a queuing system, right? What happens if someone wants to jump the queue? How could that apply to making sure other performers follow whatever rules you / the group overall want them to follow?
2) I can't imagine that the sound levels won't have to be very carefully codified (this level at this distance) because one person's acceptable will not be the same as another.
3) I do wish you luck, but from my (admittedly limited so far) experience, some buskers are not the best at realizing that compromises would be better for everyone, and so will rebel until laws are put in place and make it worse for everyone.
4) Is it possible to become a member of the SPA, or at least join the group, in advance? I would be interested in following the discussions because I'm going to approach some organizations where I am (NY) so would be interested to begin with, but I do also plan on getting to London at some point, so think it would be good for visitors to be able to join in advance.
Good Luck!
StevenBridges Hey Steven. Gotta say I’m fan, but do not agree with the SPA idea one bit. Here’s why - Honestly, I read the guidelines and I don’t think the purpose is to keep the sound levels down (or crowd management).
The strikes for going over time or for double queuing.
I read this and it translates to there are too many performers and to little time (or spots) so let’s regulate who gets to perform (and how and where)
So the get two people to vouch for you clause, now sounds like seeking permission - kinda like a cartel.
Also, I didn’t hear any good reasons for saying ‘the authorities shouldn’t be involved...like why not?’
(I reiterate, SPA seems like it’s set-up to tackle just ‘anybody and everybody’ performing - it’s regulating who can perform, where they can perform and when they can perform. What if a non-busker just wants to do some street magic on the weekends and earn some money on the side?)
I have no real interest in busking (either as a performer or spectator) and yet I find these videos fascinating.
Thanks! Really glad you like them :)
Awesome video! I can't wait to start busking too :D
This SPA sounds like an amazing idea! One thing I have to say is: it needs a different name. I think LSGSPB is decent - Leicester Square Guild of Street Performers and Buskers. The only reason I suggest this is because it uses the word “Guild”, which is a word that I absolutely love...
Surprisingly well explained
Love the street magic you do!!! Pls do more in the future!!! Like much more!!! Thank you!!
Yeah planning on shooting a bunch of street magic :)
It seems either the council will impose limits on people or your SPA will. At least with your system you have the control, which understandably might make some people uneasy. Complicated issue.
What you do is create your official group. Once this is done, and you have your guidelines completed, you make it official with an ID card as well as a placard or small sign to stick up next to your amp or equipment. This will tell people you are a part of this group that has guidelines to follow and you are willing to follow them to keep, among others, the local businesses happy.
You then hold everyone to the guidelines VERY STRICTLY. This is all marketing at this point. Make the businesses see that the people in your group are the kinds of performers the businesses WANT to have. You hold people in the area, they take a better look around, maybe they venture into a few stores, and perhaps make a purchase. You have to force the businesses to see this, and you simply do that by talking to them. Just a quick, "hello." Become friends with the local business owners. Make sure they know who's in the group and who's not.
Over time the businesses and police officers will learn that people in your group are well meaning, law abiding, cooperative persons, and a joy to have around. Other's will want your group's "seal of approval." It may not be nice, but if a person gets complaint after complaint you have two options: (1) get rid of them, or don't let them in the group in the first place. Or (2) the group gets together to help this person become a better performer, still doing what they enjoy, but doing it better or in a better location.
That's my ideas. Hope it helps.
P.S. - you can't please everyone. And it sounds like the businesses/council are going to license you one way or another.
Great video ! THANK YOUUUU
Very interesting video. I stopped by Leicester Square a few weeks ago and saw the SPA sign near the entrance of the square where there used to be the schedule and wondered what was going on. Great to get an explanation here whilst also getting a deeper insight into the complex - but fascinating - legalities of street performing. Thanks, Steven! :D
Also, good to see you after your show last Tuesday! ^__^
It seems the middle ground would be for the council to recognize the SPA as the governing body, delegating its authority for the street performers to self-regulate.
I think what you are trying to do is a really great idea. It does not seem that you would be governing public space because this kind of group would simply be an agreement to not cause problems. You are not making laws and enforcing them. You are working together to try and agree to standards that will continue to allow buskers to work. Keep doing what you are doing. I have always been a fan of how calm and rational you are when facing controversy. Good luck.
Love these videos.
The idea of an SPA sounds to me like it would do the role of council licencing, but done properly looking out for performer's best interests.
I don’t know if it’s an Italian way of saying, but we say that one’s freedom ends where another person’s freedom begins, which is another way of saying you’re free, but not completely free, and not free to harm/hurt/go against someone else’s freedom. I find very wrong that many buskers see their freedom as untouchable, and therefore do not want regulations on their job. I can’t understand it. I understand that regulations can be wrong or eccessive, but I cannot understand this total rejection of any form of regulation. So I would totally support your idea and totally agree with you, regulations on busking could benefit everybody if made by someone who knows how that job works! I’m Italian, I don’t really know how things work in England, but that’s how I see things 😁
I think there is a middle ground to be considered. Something along the lines of a 'Friends of Leicester Square' society. Rules should be replaced by an ethos; this helps to include people who would be considered more 'anti-establishment' that the average layman. The idea of sponsored membership by other members is still a good approval system, and members should actively display their membership to show they are sensitive to the issues concerning busking in that area. It also sounds like the council need to be educated about the few who do not share the same respect for acceptable performance, and a method of self reporting of issues would help to maintain good relationships witht he council and stave off any licensing agreements.
I think the SPA you comment about it's a really good idea, here in Mexico City there's nothing like that (that I'm aware of) and there's a loooooooooooooooot of places to perform here in the city. I've heard that in some of those places, performers have to pay actual criminals and crime leaders to be able to perform. Personally I usually perform at to of the city's most important landmarks and overall I have no problem with authorities, actually I'm friends with the polices around there. But yeah, I would really love that there's something as a SPA here :D
What is the criteria for joining the SPA? Surely this would have a big effect on the 'must be a member' rule.
Just because there is no fence, private land is private is it not? I guess I could be wrong but I didn't think a fence was required to keep someone your land your own.
You filmed street magic with Y! I'm satisfied
Yeah we're going to do more vids in the future :)
You got yourself a bit of a sticky wicket
It's as you said, they are painting you with the same brush, not looking at you as individual buskers. That is what started this, sadly them having money makes them more "powerful".
Can't the council say, well if you can't be more specific about who did the thing you have complains about then we can't help you?
I'm probably missing some important points otherwise that could have been a solution that people would've already thought about.
I don't understand why someone is allowed to control and own public space, I find it so unfair.
It's a great idea. I would hate to see the council get into something like this. I think your best persuasive component is just telling buskers that this is a way to make sure that buskers can still do what they do. If the council gets into this, it could compromise many acts.
luv ya as always bruh!!!!!!!!
Thank youuuuuuuuu
1. You are ALWAYS better off designing your own rules accepted by the council than following their pre-set rules.
2. The S.p.a. will of course not fit EVERYBODY as of the nature of busking, not all people are the same, BUT there is always room to adapt where possible. Here I'd say, a better tradeoff as purely restrictive regime.
3. The S.p.a. will not grip legally. It is a nice "asking your friends to calm down in the club" whereas if you leave it to the council, it's more like a "OK dude, we're leaving the club already!....sheesh..." since you're then legally enforced to oblige or perish (well busking-wise). It's a gentlemen's agreement.
In any ways I wish you good luck and success (this should be doable bro!) Let us know what happens!
really interesting and important discussion steven!! awesome video! yeah i think restricting it too much is definitely a bad thing but if the SPA is a lovely place and people in it aren't restricting of street performers in the wrong kind of way and setting up a community is the only way to get around a license (which would be a lot more restricting) i think the SPA is probably the best thing to do?? it's complicated as you said, but yeah, v interesting!! :D I hope everything goes v well!!
I really get where you're coming from and I think the basic idea is a good one. I think having buskers self-regulate is far better than a law by the council, and has a better chance at avoiding censorship of acts.
I also kind of get where the buskers were coming from, especially if they weren't from the local area and read the post you made when they weren't familiar with the particular situation. It'd be pretty easy to miss the one line of "the council are loosing patience" and get angry about the "you must be a member to perform" part. That kind of misunderstanding happens a lot online.
I'm not a busker myself, and almost everything I know about busking is from your videos, but from what you've shown me of the culture there think a compulsory membership is going to be a tough sell to buskers. Also not a lawyer, but I think they may have an argument that what you're planning to do is illegal. The council has the legal authority to make rules about what is allowed in a public space. You don't. Even though what you're planning to do is less (or at worst equally) authoritarian than what the council were proposing, and a reasonable person with familiarity with the situation might think what you're doing is legitimate and preferable, the 1980s highways act probably wouldn't see it that way. If you're telling people who are currently not breaking any laws that they can't make reasonable use of a public space, that could be a problem. (not a lawyer, haven't read the Act, don't know whether it has provision for prosecuting civilians telling other civilans to piss off)
Suggestions:
*remove the mandatory membership in order to perform (it could be hard to get people to believe this is the case becuase they will remember that it was once compulsory and may harbour resentment)
*if a member believes another busker (member or not) is too loud, politely suggest they reduce volume. If they are unfamiliar with the council situation explain/remind them that being too loud could result in busking in the area
*remove the audition tape requirement, or be way more transparent about why it's there and what criteria people will be judged by (if you're being vouched for by two other people, wouldn't they be qualified to say that you're a good act?)
*consider having the leaders of the organisation be elected by members
*think about how this will work if it continues years into the future. What happens if the current leaders get bored/tired/too busy? Who will take over?
*If this continues years into the future, how easy will it be for newcomers to busking to become a member? How can you prevent elitism and cliques? How does a person gain the respect of two existing members to back their membership if they're not allowed to perform until they have a membership? If you have auditions, do you really need member backing? How can you make sure the auditions process doesn't shut out beginners?
Final main suggestions:
*Try to position yourselves as the (elected) representatives of the local busking community. Avoid enforcing rules.
If you can't get noise level down by suggestion and voluntary change, and the coucil loose patience:
*try to get the council to agree that your scheme looks legit, and the reason it didn't work is because you can't legally enforce it. You care about noise level and reducing community friction. Buskers are the experts on busking and any local laws about it should be made with the involvement of the busking community. Try to be involved with any consultations the council try to run.
*Argue for rules that only restrict noise level (maybe to a specific number of decibels), and nothing else about the performance.
*When it's time for local elections, try to meet with prospective candidates from different parties (and any independents) and see who would agree with you that buskers should be free to perform as long as their noise level is reasonable and they are within the Highways Act. Distribute information about candidates attitudes to busking, and encourage buskers to engage in local politics in line with whatever their beliefs and priorities might be.
*Laws can be changed. If the council makes a law that restricts busking, that's not the end of the story. It might be possible to get that law overturned if you can build enough political pressure against it.
I just watched your video, and found it very interesting. To introduce myself, I am a singer, and I am 74-years old. So you could say I've "been around." I'd like to add my two cents to the conversation, if I may.
First, when busking was in its infancy, it was so new that there were little to no restrictions regarding performing ANYWHERE. But now ( in part due to the total destruction of the global economy through this Covid-19 madness, in my opinion), there is so much competition, that some sort of regulation eventually HAS to be enacted, in my opinion. Although I am singer, I am not particular as what kinds of performing should be allowed, but I am quite annoyed by having to listen to performers who are SO AWFUL AND AMATEURISH, that simply listening to them is akin to be broiled over a slow flame... they are simply so difficult to listen to that they are totally incapable of playing anywhere BUT on the street, for free. I know this may sound a bit harsh, but this is the reality of performing as a professional, and whenever people are paying you money, I consider that a large part of being considered "a pro." This, of course, does not apply to the homeless, in which giving them money amounts to simple charity.
As I live in New York City, our subway system (your "underground") known as the MARTA, has created a more visible example of this by instigating an audition system in order to play here, although it DOES NOT apply to performing above ground (that is up to any area in which a busker performs-but the most profitable places remain the subway). In any case, I believe that today, with the myriad problems we are encountering worldwide, this topic MUST be addressed in some sort of cohesive, intelligent way, lest our the entire field be filled to the brim with performers who, by anyone's standards, are simply not fit to perform publicly. I call this phenomenon "Noise Pollution, " and I think that any honest street performer knows EXACTLY what I'm talking about. There must be a standard to which everyone must adhere to, and that includes street performers, and although I fully understand that many of our freedoms are being reduced, alas, I believe that something like you propose had to happen, eventually. That said, I would be more than happy to audition for your organization, anytime, any place. I wish you all the best, and Merry Christmas!!!
i wanna learn a good catalogue of songs just so i can play for people to be happy
An interesting conundrum. I don't really think it'd be possible for you to bar people from performing, since your authority is sort of arbitrary, but the association is definitely worth keeping. I'd suggest a positive incentive to keep the rules, as opposed to a negative one; instead of punishing those who break the guidelines, you could reward those who do (with exposure maybe, I don't really know what buskers would find enticing) and try and police it yourselves as far as possible - maybe when a busker is being antisocial, a member could be dispatched to encourage the offender to observe the association's rules so that everyone benefits. Keep it loose and friendly though, it sounds like your community wouldn't appreciate an organisation that's too authoritarian in its nature.
Thank you Steven, that video has given me some excellent food for thought. Good luck!
'Conundrum' is an under-used word.
Thanks for your comment! Good to read your thoughts :)
I think you need a set of rules that will be followed in order to save the livelihood of the group. However, the irony is that in trying to avoid implementing licences, you implemented licenses. Lol.
I'm considering busking in Leicester square playing a recorder. How long do you think is fair to perform on a pitch and how much can a musician get in tips roughly for performing in an hour for example?
This is quite an issue that you're trying to sort out, Steven! Good on you for tackling it, too.
I think if you're going to require people to be members of your group in order to perform, that is very similar to required licensing by the council. Either way, a person has to meet certain guidelines before they can perform in a public space, which may make them feel like their personal freedoms are being infringed upon. I can see how that may upset some people. I also get why you'd rather have buskers set the guidelines than the city council, as your rules are likely to be more understanding of buskers' needs. It's a difficult needle to thread.
Another way to approach this issue is to look at it from the local business owners' perspective. They pay money to rent their spaces (or less likely, own their spaces) and work there in the square, even though they're also citizens. In contrast, the buskers feel they have a right to work there and pay nothing for that space. Ok, maybe that seems fair to the buskers, but should the buskers not at least show some common decency and respect to the business owners who are paying to have their businesses there? The business owners have a right to complain if your work is driving away their customers.
Most businesses must also own licenses to operate their businesses in the first place, so I think the way to "sell" the idea of membership into your group is that if you want to work in Leicester Square, this is really the bare minimum requirement of doing business there. Be civil. Be courteous. Don't allow your work to impair other people's work. Act like the professional you're claiming to be as a busker.
I've seen your posts where people criticize buskers as basically being panhandlers looking for a handout. I think maybe the lack of professional courtesy is where some of those complaints originate, along with the expectation of being able to work without paying any dues like other business people must. I've never been to Leicester Square, so I do not know, but is it possible some buskers act like beggars instead of business people? Do they fail to extend courtesy to their fellow business people in the area and keep the noise levels down? Do they dress appropriately to not scare off customers (i.e. not look like beggars)? Do they give way so people can come and go as they please through the square to shop without being obstructed?
These are points you can raise with your fellow buskers to help them understand why these complaints shouldn't be ignored just because they want their "personal freedom" to work as they please. In any society, certain concessions are made so the whole can get along. Ask them why they want to perform in Leicester Square in the first place, rather than in a field on the city's edge or maybe some city park with no businesses around it. Could it be because the established business owners there draw people to the square in the first place who have money to pay the buskers for their performances? I would think so. If that's the case, why bite the hand that feeds you? Why anger the business owners who have paid for their licenses, their property, their employees, and for marketing to get people to frequent the square? Their hard work contributes greatly to your much smaller business succeeding in that location.
If you put it in this way, the other buskers might agree that membership is a useful way of showing your willingness to cooperate with the businesses there, and it's a way of showing respect to them for their contributions to the work you're doing.
I think your busker's membership program is a great idea, Steven, and I wish you the best of luck and future success with your endeavor! :)
Really interesting thoughts Jamie! Thanks for sharing :)
I think some buskers would resent even dressing well because to them it's still their personal choice. Where as I am more of the view that 'not dressing super scruffy directly benefits my show'.
Most buskers I know do respect the businesses. We're talking about the minority here that don't respect the businesses.
I would say though, people go to Covent Garden (for example) because it's an iconic location, has restaurants and nice shops, and street performers. The street performers are part of Covent's lure.
Ah, good to know! I'm an outsider looking in (clearly). I don't know the area over there at all. What are the rules (if any) to performing in Covent Garden? Maybe that would help you develop some for Leicester Square. I hope you find a way! :)
Busking isn't really allowed in public spaces in most of Texas; usually a business owner has to grant someone permission to perform on their personal property instead. I lived in Austin for a while, and public performing was allowed there, but I can't remember anyone getting paid to perform. People just did it for the experience / practice back then. I know some musicians busk in Austin these days, but I don't know if any other performers get paid to perform publicly there. I've never seen public performances on the streets here in Dallas. I think the police would arrest them for creating a public disturbance (if they didn't get city permission first). : /
Love u Steven!!!!
Thank youuuuuuuuu!
Wouldn't the simplest solution be to talk to the council about having the S.P.A. as the official representatives for the Square?
Instead of introducing licensing legislation, create a law that installs the S.P.A. as the governing body... made up of the street performers who perform there.
The idea being that no one would require a license to perform, but would be required to go through the S.P.A. to schedule their time slots and shows. They would also be held accountable to the S.P.A. guidelines for performing in the area and breaking them would leave them with a council fine.
It seems to be that with the issues that have happened with the council, buskers are now in a spot where they will be dictated to or have to be licensed regardless, and that the current issue is who is in charge of the rules, the council or the buskers. I think that's what the angry responses on the facebook post maybe didn't get, things have already changed and this SPA is buskers at least setting the guidelines themselves. It's a compromise, sure, but it seems that if a busker isn't part of the SPA, they're then subject to the council rules and therefore cant be as protected and will continue to face grief from security and police officers. You've shown in previous videos the daily sign up sheet for performance time slots at your busking location. Is that just a courtesy thing or are all performers for that area required to sign in for a performance time? If that was the accepted way things run there or even mandatory, maybe by signing in for a performance you're agreeing to these rules? The rules the SPA are suggesting seem more than rational, so maybe the problem is more a fight against the man? It seems complicated enough to figure out from a buskers POV, let alone anyone else. All in all is so important to be having the conversation and trying to solve the problems you're facing rather than just letting things happen themselves.
Idk if it's privately owned but used as a public space to walk through, then they should still have the right to kick them off of the property. It's like how if a person has a bonfire with open invite byob type vibe on their land, they can kick you out if they want even though it's "somewhat public"
Oh, is that Jasmine at 0:53 ? Is she a singer?
How about not have the requirements to audition and be recommended by two people. What if someone wants to start out and doesn’t know two people already in the group? Makes it impossible. People should join, follow the rules, they don’t follow the rules they get kicked out which means they can’t perform. That sounds a good option to me
Hmm...
"You own private property that you allow people on, we can do whatever we want here"
"Government wants to make laws on the things we do, government is the problem"
Totally okay with the government making laws. Laws are essential for society to function. Not trying to do anything against the law. :)
Lol when u say No Thankyou lol
I think your idea of SPA is good. The thing is you can only aware people of the rules and laws of busking created by the government. I think the best thing to do is to make that committee. I know some people will be angry but the thing is in that committee everybody will follow the guidelines and laws such as noise control, effective use of public spaces etc. This will make things easier for street performers. For the people who won't be the part of the commitee, if found guilty won't be getting any help from you commitee anf then there will be not much hassle for the commitee members. This will save them too. So just register that commitee and best of luck. Thaaaannkkkk Yooooouuuu!
What do you think about busking on some of the many bridges in london?
So sad that the streets are governed by laws like that
While I think a performers’ association is a good idea in some aspects, and is probably the right way to do things in the end, it is a valid concern that the regulation of performances by an interested body would risk there being abuse of that power, and the devolution of that power to local government is a way to minimise that risk. It may be worth considering the audition process a more open system, and that people should be allowed to perform in the space as a part of or an option for their audition, to keep the busking scene open and allow people to benefit from the space. Dedicated audition times should be written in to sign up sheets, only to be filled in the absence of anyone seeking to audition on the day, this would make sure there isn’t a total lockout from new blood. The sponsorship is also a good idea from the frame of mind of keeping people, to the rules, but it also closes the area off if you don’t know the regular busking scene, and could lead to the “cartel”attitude, so an alternative entry method could be considered, where their personal stake would be increased temporarily until members are willing to vouch for them once they know they are willing to follow the rules.
Also, I know this isn’t a super prevalent issue, but what happens if someone refuses to join, and continues to perform. How would you deal with that? Disrupting their shows seems very cartel-y, but it’s also difficult to judge another way of keeping things fair, as they could crank their amp louder than the spa member who was scheduled to perform, and irritate businesses and kill the crowds. This is the issue I can’t solve that I do think is a fair criticism.
How about instead of only allowing people within the SPA to perform, you allow everyone to perform provided they sign a document saying that they’ll agree to the set rules? That way you avoid the elitist membership argument, but still have rules to hold people to if need be. From the sound of it, people are arguing against the SPA, not against the rules themselves, and if you ensure that it’s clear on whatever document they sign that it’s to avoid licensing, then maybe that would work 😊
"[...] and to ensure you [sic] amplifier, microphone, and music are not to exceed an unreasonable level"... so they can be *at* an unreasonable level?
Yeah apparently 'unreasonable' is an actual term the council etc use. Unreasonable would be something that's causing a nuisance or stopping the businesses from operating. But it's impossible to define a specific volume because even a DB reading has major problems.
Have you considered forming an activist group rather than this SPA thing? It would be a volunteer based busking association that regularly meets to discuss ways to improve public relations between businesses and buskers. Members would be expected to make an effort to educate problem buskers on the issues that you all are facing. For example, if someone has their music too loud, members would be expected to politely approach them and inform them why they should keep the volume down. The group could use donations to print educational flyers and pamphlets that members can hand out to new buskers detailing the common things that cause businesses to complain to the authorities. You wouldn't have any real authority, but you should be able to make a noticeable impact on problematic buskers in the area. This could also help to build a sense of trust and community with the local businesses. If you can find a way to improve relations enough, the businesses may be inclined to take the extra step to be more specific in their complaints about disruptive buskers.
Yo Steven! Hope it all works out well. Btw, did you go to that Ben earl lecture in the end?
Yes and it was bloody brilliant!
amazing video :) I would not be for any of the solutions, but these are the solutions. Either licensed or SPA. SPA seems better version of it. :) Thumbs up :)
I think it's a really good idea, but not sure if it would really work... Based on just how many times you said "you're allowed to make reasonable use of a public space" in this video, I'm guessing anyone who isn't a member could use that if you said they needed a membership to perform on certain days.... But if somehow you could get performers to sign something saying that they will follow the rules you have set up, that gives you ground to tell them to go if they are being too loud or doing anything that'd get complaints (and from your explanation, I take it that it is part of the law that you should not be a nuisance, so they can't use the "reasonable use of a public space" arguement)
Perhaps becoming a member should just be a simpler process, as requiring an audition video is like saying you all have to like their performance, when membership is really about making sure people follow the rules, which may be part of the intent of auditions, but I imagine as a performer it instead feels like you have to prove your worth.
Yeah I totally agree!
Hmm. Maybe collaborate with a licensed and reputable lawyer if you haven't, and bring it up with the council directly, so that they can regulate your rules? Basically, it will give them the "authority" over you obeying the laws that they want, to the point of arresting people of multiple offenses if severe enough, and still allow you as the busking community, to watch each other's back and follow the guidelines, without the risk/fear of a cartel. The point comes down to that you shouldn't ignore complaints and criticism from people who don't like this, but you can't make everyone happy. I manage people every day, and something I learned is that people will complain, even when the situation is best. People want life without consequence, and the truth is that it's impossible. Every choice has a number of different consequences, good, bad, and in the middle, and all we can do is find the balance that decreases the risk of bad consequences as much as possible. I can play provocative music at work in my closed office when it's just me, and I'd love to play it louder, but the louder I play it, the more risk I have for someone to hear it outside the room, which increases the chance of someone being offended, which can lead to other management getting involved, which can make me fired. Instead of all that, I respectfully play it quietly, and pause it when someone walks in, or skip the songs altogether. Anyway, that was a bit of a tangent, but the point I was getting at, is that I'm compromising my wants with the needs of others, because otherwise I will be working without either. If it comes down to those people who don't want to compromise their wants, then unfortunately they're going to learn that life exists beyond themselves. If that makes them sad or upset, then they may just be selfish people who only think of themselves. Again, don't ignore those people, but know the difference between when people are trying to help everyone, or just themselves, and when the changes they suggest hurt more than help. Also, as a principle, ignore people who don't put in any input other than, "I DON'T LIKE THIS", because they are helping nothing, and will complain, no matter what the decision is. Hope this helps!
steven bridges when are u doing a live show
If they ever put that license in buskers everywhere will be causing havoc lol
You need to form a Union to protect your livelihoods and reputations and to secure your future. You bring a lot of enjoyment to a wide variety of people. I've stopped quite a few times whenever I've been in Covent Garden to watch the performers and given as much money as I can but whenever passing through Leicester Square, I don't ever stay to watch the performances. If you were there I would because you're really good at what you do. Your card tricks leave me speechless. By the way, have you seen that Scottish thief lately? Has he stolen anymore clothes from shops? He tried justifying his act of theft by putting the blame onto the poor worker who made a mistake. Typical.
Honestly I am really not keen on the whole ‚you have to be a part‘-thing. To not refuse anyone‘s rights, I‘d suggest that this SPA will get known for what it is (by the authorities and others) so that you will never (or if, as a whole) get turned down, because everyone knows you are not the problem!
PS: I‘m not a native speaker so if something‘s unclear, please ask!
Need licences everywhere in Australia. Most cities are reasonable. Brisbane is a beurocratic hell hole
Maybe people would be more positive if there was some democratic system in place? Like, let members vote on rules and administrators or something?
Oh yeah I think that's essential. If we are going to have rules they need to be agreed on by buskers
You really have to be careful about making it too sticky to join your little group. Recommended by 2 current members and audition as well?. Someone might get the idea that your group is trying to limit potential performance competition. Seems like in theory it is a good way to help other performers have guidelines that need to be followed to keep city officials and business owners happy. One final comment, I believe it will be very difficult to enforce having to join or preventing a newcomer from doing the same thing that other buskers have done in the past without answering to a cartel. JMO
Hope you get it sorted out.
Yeah and part of me thinks some people want to use this to limit potential performance competition - which is totally not what I want.
I get it. All the best in your effort.