As someone who grew up with the adventure games on PS3 I remember reallyyyy wanting to play heroes back in the day, I finally got to play it on dolphin in 2021, and whew.. was I disappointed 😭😭
I just played through heroes and enjoyed way more than I thought I would and I realised I don’t give this game enough credit. Granted I was using a few mods but they barely changed anything
man even after learning to play the "Right Way" it's just not fun. it just boils down to spamming attack buttons while occasionally switching characters
but i like sonic heroes :( Edit: ok um a couple things i noticed in the video i might come of as mean but i just wanted to point things out The game DOES teach you how to use the combat system in the first/second level "Let's leave the flying enemies to Tails. He'll bring them down using Thunder Shoot." "When jumping, press the B Button in power formation to use Fire Dunk. I turn Sonic and Tails into fireballs to shoot at enemies" "Pressing the B Button during a jump while in speed formation allows you to attack enemies on the ground with Blue Tornado" Also skiping the tutorial and saying the game sucks cause it doesnt teach you anything is really really dumb. It's different, that doesnt make it bad, You wouldnt jump into sonic gens and say it sucks cause you've only played sa2. And when you litterally SKIP the thing telling you how to play and say "games bad cause it doesnt teach you" and your only reasoning for skiping it is cause you didnt notice one of the TWO different options on the MAIN SCREEN isnt the games fault.
@@kirbystar9194 your still missing the point. Who realistically is gonna go into the tutorial when playing the game? And again my main issue still stands. The game funnels you into playing ONE SPECIFIC WAY to have fun. That is bad game design
@@shaulov10 WHY ARENT YOU *STARTING* WITH THE TUTORIAL?? also the game DOES have its different styles of play. One fun thing is if you do the little mini tornado thing knuckles does when pressing B in the air with sonic and tails, you can break the blocks in the first and second level without using the punches and not slowing you down so you can keep a flow. Skiping platforming sections with tails, jumping to another far away section with the rocket accel theres more to the game than just swap here swap there.
Yeah can't lie Frontiers pinball mini game is less insufferable then heros, even if we've all been pissed off by that pinball mini game in Chaos Island, Knight was one damn of a way to end the Island with a bang.@@shaulov10
If I had to play a game "the right way" to have a fun time, then that actively hurts the game in multiple ways. I want to be able to boot up Bloons Tower Defense and spam a bunch of dart monkeys then I should be able to do that and still have fun. Sure, maybe it's not the best thing to do, but at least I'm having fun. Here? No...
@@Arcs358At this rate I enjoyed Shadow the Hedgehog because at least the levels are all different, and the story is more like an Adventure Sonic then this cartoon thing.
I hated the fact that tails didn't even get to friggin touch the ground with his feet and let you freeroam with him solo, it was bothering! thank goodness for mods though 🙌
When you view and play heroes like the adventure games of course you're not gonna have a fun time. Heroes style is an in-between hybrid of those games. And whats so complicated about the combat, its pretty easy to grasp. If my dumbass 8yr can understand, Im sure anyone else can.
and what do you mean by not playing the game the right way, do you not use the other characters or do you just try and complete the level with only sonic?
The combat ain’t difficult. My issue is that in order to try and have fun. You are funnled down playing one way to do so. That’s stupid. If people don’t want to engage in combat that should be a viable option. And if you want people to engage in the combat. Maybe idk, make the game fun to play to encourage me to actually do so
Sonic Heroes was the first game I ever played and it's my favorite game of all time (could be nostalgia) , and yes it's janky as fuck and it's basically a middle finger to new players, so here's some tips I always give to new players: 1- The level up order should be like this [Get Sonic to lvl2 -> Tails lvl2 -> Sonic and Tails to lvl 3 then finally Knuckles] The reason why you want to hold off leveling up Knux for as long as possible is because most enemies can be taken out with no problem as Sonic or Tails so leveling him up is useless especially in the early game, you can do that by killing all the early enemies with Knux which will make them drop the power cores of the other 2 characters. 2- Try to avoid the jank as much as possible, for example, instead of getting directly on the pinball table, just use your flying character to fly as close as possible to the exit when you have the chance. 3- Tails is too slow, what you can do to avoid this problem is to basically use the rocket accel as Sonic and after taking off change to Tails then keep moving (or start flying to fly longer distances) yes it's most likely not intentional but I could argue that breaking the game is more fun than having to live by it's rules. 4- There is no saving for the last section of Mystic Mansion (fuck those pumpkin ghosts) but I noticed that if you hold the jump button after the homing attack the other characters won't attack the ghosts. 5- Fuck Team Chaotix and the tutorial section there's no saving them. 6- You can always play any team you like without playing the other teams, it's not like you'll be missing much.
@@RedditorGogeta again, no disrespect to you, I feel like this whole comment proves my point. You have to do so much to just play the game in one specific way so that the game is fun. And I feel like I can’t forgive the game for that. Maybe if more play styles were viable I would be kinder to the game
@@shaulov10Bro don't forget that the story and writing and character treatment in heroes was a bunch of bullsh!t the levels themes and songs are not all memorable except for This Machine and Team Chaotic. Secret Rings has only screwed the gameplay.
About that part about the game having to be fun on a first playthrough. That made me think of DMC 5. DMC 5 is arguably the most accessible and easiest game in the series, and you can basically go through the whole game by just button mashing and not interacting with it's deeper mechanics. But it's still a very enjoyable experience on the first playthrough. And when you delve into the more complex mechanics, like jump cancelling and style switching, it becomes a hundred times more fun than it alreay is. Wish i could say the same for Sonic Heroes.
I love Heroes, but I only play the game with tons of mods that improve a lot of things. I do this with all sonic games. To play any sonic game without mods is just asking for a worse experience. I love frontiers but I will NEVER play it vanilla. Mods only!
Sonic Heroes is such a janky, arduous chore of a game to finish because of janky collision, super repetitive game design, and the worst special stages EVER. I played it recently and it was so exhausting But everytime I look at the game, it fills me with nostalgia and sweet memories of my childhood cos this game was what made me a Sonic fan and i have so many good memories of playing it with my friends and my brother, so I think even though this game is like a 5/10 I have so many fond memories that its one of my favourites LMAOO
As someone who wants to be a game designer when im older, I agree with your points. A game should be fun to play for everyone to play, not just be played the right way. I hate when people say that because to me they are sweats that have no life. Im a defender when it comes to games like sonic and the secret rings and I can admit when a game is flawed but when your defending a game make sure you don't say "its beacuse you didnt play the right way" thats like saying nuh uh in court that argument will be invailed. I've never played Sonic heroes before but if the issue is me not playing the right way and looking up a tutorial then im out. Also I think thet should've done a tutorial for any team you start with and then for the rest would have no tutorial and if you need it there would be a secrion in the menu that allows you to re play it. Fire video as always
I forced myself to end this game and I swear it was one of the worst game experiences I had in my life It barley holds togheter, 80% of my deaths were because of the game's fault, not mine Speed characters slip all over the place, power characters it's just mash one button prying to not fall from the stage and flying characters are boring, just used to pass through some rings and that's all Even the bosses doesn't work, you have to find a way to cheese every fight to make them tolerable
Honestly, I always thought Sonic Heroes was overrated. Many UA-camrs such as premydaremy, Splash Dash/LS Mark, and Matthasnocuts glaze this game to kingdom come, but I played it a while back and I just couldn't see the hype. It's a decent game, just not an amazing one like others have claimed imo
ive been playing sonic heroes on gc and i really want to love it cus the game sounds so cool in concept but the controls, level design, and jank really ruins it 😭
I mentioned that. But realistically who is going to the tutorial? Like if I was a newcomer I would just jump into the game. They could have put the tutorial for the first story you play but they didn’t
I mentioned that. But realistically who is going to the tutorial? Like if I was a newcomer I would just jump into the game. They could have put the tutorial for the first story you play but they didn’t
Heroes has one of the best level designs of all sonic games, what r you smoking? I can agree that it can be frustrating with some glitches even tho you don't experience them much if you learn the game. Guess other complains is just skill issue you can have fun with it without deeply learning the game cuz it's pretty straight forward.
Heroes level design peaked at the first level. After that it just noes dives in quality. Do not get me started on mystic mansion. Also saying skill issue isn’t an argument the game is hella easy. People love to say how this game is so “complex” when it really just boils down to spamming attack until sonic is level 3 so you can just kill everything. The game is boarding, broken and unintuitive
A remaster or remake of the game could show the full potential and vision the creators probably had in their time crunch. Just like Sonic 06, Sonic and the Secret Rings, and Sonic Forces, and how they got fan-made remakes, remasters, or mods, something like those would be great to see. This game definitely has flaws, but Sonic Team was cooking something. They had a vision.
@@barneythedino4301 idk man. I used to think this but like if they did do a remake this game would basically need an overhaul. Whole systems would have to be changed to support multiple play styles so that the main issue of playing the “right way” isn’t there. There needs to be multiple viable play styles
Heroes isn't even my fav game, it's got a lot of flaws, but sorry...Skill Issue. I've been a Sonic fan since the 90's, and Heroes came out when I was in 6th grade. I immediately got the hang of the game and beat Team Dark's story first. There was no "whiplash" for me. I just adjusted my play style for that specific game. There may not be a "correct" way to play, but you can still play if you actually pay attention.
You completely missed the point. The fact alone that you are funneled down one play style in order to have fun is bad game design. If the game allowed for different play styles I would be more forgiving. It has nothing to do with a “skill issue” the game ain’t that hard, it’s hella basic. People love to over exaggerate how “complex” this game is when in reality you just spam attack with different characters until you level up sonic to just over power everything.
It was I. I started this game from the tutorial mode since it was my first 3D console game..... These days I occasionally turn this game on and collect A ranks to have some fun, but I do agree that platformers shouldn't be designed in this way. I'm used to Sonic Heroes' slippery control so I don't have much problem playing it, but I still ask to myself why it is made like this😅
4:22 yes it does, the game naturally will show you what characters to use to get rid of certain enemies for example in both ocean palace and power plant there are section that have those hovering green robots in sections that you are obviously supposed to use tails, so naturally you will use thundershoot to stun them to the ground and then use sonic or knuckles to destroy them Then later when your fully leveled up with tails you find that out that you can just use thundershoot to destroy those green robots. Also in seaside hill, there’s a section that has a bunch of enemies in front of two rocks that ur supposed to break with knuckles, you have to destroy the enemies to break the rocks and there’s that red bar that automatically switches you to power type so naturally you will use knuckles to get rid of the enemies, which teaches you that knuckles is the overall best for combat Also there are those hint question marks that you can use if you are stuck Or you can just naturally figure it yourself, it’s not hard at all This is literally just a skill issue
I feel like all the mechanics together represent the characters well, but would be difficult (not impossible though) to impliment into one game revolving around the three of them at once. Looking at Team Sonic, a game with enemies that have health, thus requiring combat, is definitely something Knuckles would fit in, whereas a puzzle game sounds like something for Tails. But we're shoving that into a game called *Sonic* Heroes, of which would get slowed down by these kinds of aspects being tossed in without enough thought (another example of how more developement time would've done Heroes a tremendous favor). In a game titled after the fasting thing alive, slowness is something you'd want to avoid at all costs. Now that's not to disregard the other teams and how, on their own, they could make interesting gameplay segments, levels, etc. but if we wanted a team-composition-focused game named after the embodiment of acceleration itself, it would all have to blend into a much smoother experience. It's even to where Sonic is so uncontrollably fast to try to make up for lost time that his speed starts to slow down the experience again from the jank of the controls
I had a blast with this game. The levels were great and while the controls are janky, what is sonic without jank? Learning the game didnt require much thought. Wanna spin an enemy into the air? Use sonic. Wanna ground a flying enemy? Use tails. Wanna rip through enemies like butter? Use knuckles. I found the combat and level up system satisfying personally. Obviously the game doesn’t handle very well, and the player shouldn’t have to compensate for that. The fact that all 4 campaigns have the same levels in the same order sucks. Overall though, playing sonic heroes, despite its buginess, was a blast.
I'm a firm believer that anyone who actually likes this game had it when they were growing up. That's the only why they learnt how to play "the right way". Via countless playthroughs because it was one of the few games thy had when they were younger. And naturally, they grew to love it. But they seem to forget that not everyone has nostalgia for this game nor the experience that comes with said nostalgia. I said on a Gamescage video about Sonic experiences in different generations, that a lot of discourse in in this fanbase comes from the fact that Sonic has been going for decades, so many different views of what Sonic "should be" or the best Sonic has come about. And the reason for a lot of this is different times of nostalgia. I closed of with this: "I think a lot of discourse in this fanbase wouldn't be if we looked beyond their points, beyond the reasoning behind the arguments. If we looked at their nostalgia. Because _even then_ if we were to imagine ourselves as a kid with a game you despise, you could understand why they loved the game." Basically, a lot of takes in this fanbase, and a lot of others come from being blinded by nostalgia. And when people don't realize it, it becomes hard to accept other opinions. This is most likely what happened with the people saying "your just not playing it the "right way" ". Oblivious to the way they actually learnt the "right way". Via years of experience. Of course newcomers are going to struggle to like it as you do.
It’s kinda ironic since sonic fans are so agains nostalgia bait but when it comes to a game they like they turn tables, which I’m not gonna blame them for. I have nostalgia for secret ring’s despite the game being absolute booty to play. But I’m always able to look past my biases, even with SA2. I love that game but I can understand why nowadays it may not have aged well
@@playbossthebest936 Obviously its not going to be the exact same for everyone. Some people, like you sir over here, are just built different. Some people are made for this game, others aren't. Also, kinda ironic how you say, since it not being that straightforward is many people's problem with this game 💀
One thing you didn't mention is that characters say things to indicate who would be best for each type of situation. Things like "Sonic, get rid of that shield". I admit it may be unintuitive, but only because it's more complex than most Sonic games. I would say a game being complex and unintuitive isn't necessarily a bad thing (like Monster Hunter), but I guess in the context of the Sonic series, it would be kind of shocking. I personally like the complexity of the combat system. I liked discovering that a level 3 Sonic has wind properties on his homing attack and that it works with the auto-homing when playing as Knuckles too. I liked discovering that Thunder Shoot at level 3 could take out rows of standard enemies. I liked figuring out that Blue Tornado can act as a jump extender and give a height increase. But I can understand that it's only really good for people who like to dig into mechanics and see the details of it all. You had some fair points. Not exactly well designed for newcomers. But I still don't think it's bad that you have to understand a game's mechanics well to enjoy it well. It's just a different kind of game.
@@MarkerMurker again I think the main issue is that the game funnels you down playing one way in order to have fun. If other play styles were viable I wouldn’t be as tough on the game
hello there Shaulov10, boy oh boy, you made a video about sonic heroes, while the game is certainly very flawed, but man do i have so many ideas in regards to how the game could've been better, and i certainly want to share those ideas with any one with those kind of perspectives like yours to help paint a clairer picture on how the game's issues could've been avoided first the campaign structure , and here i think some thing NEED to be said in regards to playing four teams which , it CAN BE handled in a different way that is far more tolerable and makes it good enough to complete the game, in which each team still has its own campaign but WITH ONLY CERTAIN levels, not all of them, which from my perspective go like this Team Sonic : Seaside Hill, Ocean Palace, Grand Metropolis, Power Plant, Casino Park, Bingo Highway, Rail Canyon, Bullet Station, Frog Forest, Lost Jungle, Hang Castle, Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, and Final Fortress Team Dark : Seaside Hill, Ocean Palace, Casino Park, Bingo Highway, Hang Castle, Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, and Final Fortress Team Chaotix : Grand Metropolis, Power Plant, Rail Canyon, Bullet Station, Frog Forest, Lost Jungle, Egg Fleet, and Final Fortress other than that, i think that team rose should be some sort of a side story that is optional to play, meaning that you'll have only 3 teams with the entire game being played for over a little bit more than twice rather than four times to unlock the final boss, an other thing i want to point out has to do with none other than the level design i don't know how you'll feel about that, but while i'm fine with sonic heroes stages being the way they are, i understand though that for a lot of people, this is one of those things that do not sit well with them, especially in regards to how flat the level design is, that no matter how good or engaging each level flow is , that level that feel like flat space with a certain amount of level geometry, repetitive sections of each level, along with a very restrictive amount of alternate paths , just take away from the experience for a lot of people how ever a certain fan game i stumbled upon named Sonic World DX, which did a FANTASTIC job making many characters feel like their unique style of game while being fast paced, has what i believe to be one of, if not the best versions of seaside hill i've ever seen , you may be surprised if i told you this, but aside from the fact that this fan game has the team based mechanic , that seaside hill i'm talking about has SOOOOOO much going on , from alternate paths, open spaces, taking advantage of different character types, it's so good that i found myself spending a lot of time playing this fan made version of the stage that i'm till founding out about many ways how to go across the level, which far surprass any stage from sonic heroes, which show what heroes could've truly been , had it more development time rather than what they did to lizuka who lost over 22 pounds working on the game and nearly lost his life, which is some thing he never deserved to go through, so , what if sonic heroes can have that much quality in level design, while here is my ideas for Ocean Palace, Power Plant, Bingo Highway, Bullet Station, and Lost Jungle, those levels should follow some thing along the lines of a well balanced approach of speed, platforming, and exploration, where there is quite a number of paths to take in , with a lot but good amount of open space and engaging level geometry to go through, allowing for far more creativity of going through those levels, those levels would be the biggest challenge to deal with, specially Bullet station which would require the biggest over haul of them all, but i don't think it can not be pulled off for Seaside Hill, Grand Metropolis, Casino Park, Rail Canyon, Frog Forest, Hang Castle, Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, and Final Fortress, those stages should follow some thing along the lines of a speed, and platforming balanced approach, exploration on the other hand would be far little present, regulated mostly for secret areas, while those stages would be a different challenge of their own, but i think they are easier to deal with, Hang Castle, Mystic Mansion, and Final Fortress, would require a lot of over haul though and those are my ideas, what are your thoughts about it , don't forget to talk about it in a reply though
I used to think Heroes was a good introduction to the Series because of the characters you play and meet but yeah. I can see on first playthroughs how the controls and combat could frustrate those people
I feel like sonic heroes is my guilty pleasure. Like yes, it is very VERY buggy and I always have to switch to the flight character to not fly off a cliff. But I feel like because I’ve mentally adjusted to the games… “quirks” if you will, I have fun with it(plus nostalgia) But you’re not wrong. The game is bad on a “functionalility” level, but I love it to death😭✋. (Good video btw)
@@Ehhhhhh- I get it. But again what bugs me about it is that, like you mentioned. You have to basically learn how to avoid breaking the game to have fun. I think that goes even harder against my whole point of funneling you down one playstyle. Now you have to play the game one specific way to have fun AND avoid the jank.
Well I’m comparing it by how accessible it is. Elden ring, a game that is notoriously difficult, is still more beginner friendly because of how well designed it it’s. And it’s embarrassing that heroes is less accessible
Even if heroes is tecnically bad designed, i rlly enjoy the game. I love the rock paper scissors ideia and the level design, but i have to admit heroes is not for everyone, and if you need to learn the game the "right way", to like it. It means its design incorrectly, and i definetly see your point and respect it. And even if you play the tutorial the game its still bad at explaining wtf you need to do😭, its like riders the game doesnt explains how it works. But i still think forces its worse, because even if you play forces in the right way, its not fun lol. Edit: just saying i am not the best guy at critcize games, i just enjoy what i think its fun, but i can notice when the game is flawed, even if you say that at the start of th game sonic, tails and knuckles kinda teachs you how you supposed to play. Lets say that its still not that obvious, imo most people would just ignore it, sure people will pay attention when the tutorial litterally stops you. But the game still could tach you in a very intuitve way, like sa2 city escape, or the first level in mario bros, this are gteat examples in stages that have great design and teaches you while you are playing the stage in a very intuitive way. Other thing, not saying the oevel design is bad, i acctually think its pretty decent, rewarding you for doing the good path way, and punishing you for doing something wrong (even if it punishes you a little to hard) but the way it introduces you the mecanichs its not that good.
Haven't even watched the video yet, but I already agree with you: after the "new game" feeling wore off, I noticed everything is annoying and unbearably dumb
Honestly, as much as I like Sonic Riders, I do understand why people wouldn’t like it, because it shares similar issues that this game does. It’s better once you get good at it, but it’s unlikely that same person won’t pick it back up after their first go.
But again, I feel like you still have different presumptions when going to a racer to a platformer. You kinda expect to have to learn the mechanics of the game like a fighter. But most platformers don’t work like that
I will give heroes one credit i like that i cant do in any other game. Team darks team blast can stop time wgich means anything in the level. So during the power plant rising lava section i used the team bladt top stop the rising lava fir a bit to get my barings or run ahead of the lava to gain some distance when it got too close
I have thought this game was shit my whole life and I am happy to finally see others think so. Every single UA-camr I know that likes this game does because of nostalgia.
1:24 Obviously Sonic is literally the speed type, obviously he does this to show that he is the fastest, for platforms he uses the vol type that flies so much and is slower than Sonic
Skill issue tbh Naahhh but for real now. From someone who wasn’t the biggest fan of heroes as a kid, and now appreciates the game a lot, I do understand where you’re coming from. I think you make valid points, but they just don’t affect me, cause the game is really fun to me. I had a similar thing happen with Treasure hunting levels in SA2. They were a bit confusing for me as a Kid, and I was easily frustrated too. But now I love those levels, tryna get the emerald shard as fast as I can. Heroes isn’t designed all too well mechanically, and it’s hard for newcomers. Yeah most Sonic games have those aspects that are hard to get into for casuals. But I do agree Heroes is worse in that regard. But I never hated the game. And I just learned to enjoy it Switching between the members and thinking about the best possible way to tackle the games obstacles and challenges is really fun to do. It could be polished up, and sometimes the game has some big glitches that can frustrate players, but I still love the game regardless. Not my favorite Sonic game, nor on the top 3 or anything, but I do appreciate the game a lot. And I find it to be really fun. But I do understand where people are coming from when they talk about the games’ flaws, cause they are real. They just don’t affect me, you know? Heck, I don’t even mind playing Team Chaotix. They’re definitely the worse campaign but I can still tolerate that campaign well. And I don’t personally feel that the game is repetitive. I understand the other complaints about the game, but I never felt the game was repetitive, not even as a kid. Each campaign is kinda short so playing 4 times with different level design doesn’t feel repetitive or boring to me tbh. But I do have to agree that Casino Park and Bingo Highway are by far the worst levels in the game. I can tolerate them now, but they left me permanent scars as a kid, I can’t lie 🥲
Heroes was fun from what I played, I think there’s alot of good aspects about it, and I think the combat would be fine if I didn’t know from a tutorial cuz you kinda just do what other sonic games do, and I like the werehog too I noticed that! Plus Sonic games have alot of types of games, so a puzzle game isn’t out of the blue
@@shaulov10 it falls flat on Its face on fun. I can beat the first werehog level in like 8 minutes and while then I’m having a good time, pacing is more important than how long a level is, and eggman land is a great example of that with how much stuff your thrown at and it takes an hour. Frontiers also isn’t the best tbh, it doesn’t have as much moves as the werehog and there isn’t as much cool skips you can use with them, which is one of my fav parts about it the werehog because not only for fighting enemies but using those moves to traverse through levels alot quicker, and one of Sonic’s best aspects from games like the classics is learning and improving on stuff like the time and the general gameplay
@@shaulov10to the person who said "you're not playing it the right way" as a kid I would be speed unless I felt like I needed to switch for combat or obstacle" if I played heroes now I would be "speed and switch to who has the highest level up at the moment and hope it's flight" both I'm experiencing the same level of "enjoyment" to the game
Heroes is definitely one of the most uninviting games for a first playthrough (unless you've basically 'looked it up' per se, as you mention). I can't compare it to much other than Lost World in that regard, which is of course even more extremely rock bottom than Heroes is in quality. In both scenarios I'd argue it's near opposite to Forces, which is very easy for a newcomer to play, but has so little depth that it dries out all the fun or whatever other incentive to spend time with. It isn't hard to play "right" at all, it's just boring.
Yap yap yap, anyway sonic heroes is an amazing sonic game with such good level design, alternate pathways, unique gimmicks, fun and responsive rail mechanics and 12 playable characters into groups of four, the controls are solid and the physics are more forgiving and heroes has some of the best levels in the entire series, heroes is an A to S tier sonic game I recommend for everyone to play it, its a near masterpiece (unlike SA2)
@@shaulov10its not a take, its an objective fact and by the way, every complaint you had about this game is exactly what SA2 has but far worse, SA1 and heroes are amazing, better then SA2
@@SAMURAIPACK456 that’s is just untrue. Sure the knuckles stages aren’t good but atleast you don’t have to play the same game 4 times to get the final story. And the speed stages are really good. Heroes is a broken mess and is probably one of, if not the worst designed sonic game technically, and gameplay wise
Definitely disagree with basically the majority here, as a sonic heroes lover. I don't think you're entirely wrong, so I'm gonna give my take. For the whole tutorial, I feel like it can be either the game's fault or the player's fault, in this case it's both. I think it's unfair to blame it on the game while it does have an actual tutorial, and it's not really starting from Amy's story. The charming dialogue of the characters mentions it, and there are those question markers to help. Not listening or reaching out is solely on the player's fault. Then again, it's not often those tutorials really show up or somewhat hard to spot, so that's where I say it's the game's fault. Nonetheless, heroes has great level design, so I lean towards the player's fault. Also, the "right way" is more like the "expert/experienced way." I do think you can be stupid and go through these levels just fine. The game does a good job progressing the difficulty with the except of some levels (that I personally don't take issue). I know you take issue that heroes is unfriendly to newcomers, but I'd personally say this BEEN an issue with sonic games. Countless times I've seen people, especially casuals, just not understand how sonic works. This isn't just heroes, but mostly with the ambitious titles like CD, adventure games, and storybook games just to name a few. The points said in the video can honestly be directed the same to those games. "The camera, the controls, the stupid nature of it, sonic games were never good." I will go as far to say this why casuals will think like ign does because they just don't get sonic games. You gotta know to know, you know. So just know sonic heroes its not really different from other games besides the mechanics. Now I'd argue, a GOOD player SHOULD adapt to the game's mechanics which I believe the heroes level design reflects this and is rewarded greatly. Heroes is a much harder game than most sonic games, and I believe the harder, the better. This is why I believe heroes is a much fun game than most sonic games especially with how rewarding for skillful play. Speaking of fun, I personally don't like how you objectify "fun" (or at least that's how it sounded to me from the video). Fun is subjective, and that's why opinions exist even though opinions can be wrong just like this video 🥴. Half jokingly aside, good video. 👍
The level design in frontiers is incromhensible. And i like both games but ill admit frontiers when compared to any triple A game in 2022 is embsrrasing. Where sonic heroes compared to other games in its era is alright
The thing is. Frontiers level design looks unnatural but it flows so well together making it really fun to play. Heroes is heroes. Even comparing heroes to games of the time. It still pales in comparison. Frontiers at the very least is fun to play despite the issues it has and it may not compare to many AAA Games but atleast it’s a good game
Honestly people who hate Sonic Heroes just want to turn their brain off and blast through, no thought required. Personally, I don't want to turn my brain off, I want to be engaged. And that's why sonic Heroes has my favorite gameplay of any game out there. Also "not made for newcomers"? It literally has different difficulties including an easy mode that it describes as being for people who are new to action games. The way people criticize this game makes no sense I swear... Also actual good games such as say, Doom Eternal do in fact have what the developers call the "fun zone" where even in an interview they said "well people would say, oh just let the player play the way they want to play, but really... No game is like that. Our games fun zone is when you're switching weapons constantly and managing resources and thinking about your next move snd if they don't play like that... We kill em." Intelligent developers understand a lot of games have this fun zone and good games actively push the player into their fun zone because there's a specific way they want the players to engage with the game because they as devopers know how the game is best enjoyed. The whole "I shouldn't have to learn how the game works and just have fun anyway crowd clearly don't realize that's how every game or sport works: if yiu play uncharted and never take cover yiu won't get far. If you play Mario kart and never drift you won't get far. If you play Rayman 3 and never strafe yiu won't get far. If you play Tetris and put place he pieces wherever you will not have fun. Every game is like that. Some games are less rigid yes, but that's the exception and not the rule. Good game design pushes the player into their systems and punishes them if they don't engage with them.
You completely missed the point. There are sonic games that are engaging but are still fun. Sonic adventure 2, sonic unleashed, generations. All engage with the player but still provide a fun experience and it won’t force you to play one specific way. HEROES is not fun off rip. Is unintuitive, janky, and poorly designed and the only way for you to try and have fun is to learn a combat system and learn to avoid the jank which that in of itself is bad game design, and if you play any other way you are punished. Let other gameplay styles be viable
Also using the Mario kart or fighting game example is stupid. You expect different things going into different games. Platformer should not funnel you down one specific way of play to have fun. That works for Mario kart and fighting games cause the whole fun of the game is getting good. Not for a casual platformer.
@@shaulov10 multiple styles are viable though if you understand the design. You can play the clear intended way or get a bit experimental and do crazy ships and shortcuts. I understand the frustration in it's overly rigid design but much like a puzzle game, some games are just quite abrasive and put up a lot of resistance to not performing well. It's all preference. I'll give you jank but I've just finished my 6th save file and I appreciate the game more with each playthrough since once you do understand it, playing well becomes extremely satisfying because the power fantasy that is earned is far more rewarding than one that's just given to the player.
If Sonic Heroes has 1 hater, I'm there If Sonic Heroes has a million haters, I'm there Sonic Heroes is a nightmare come to life which must be destroyed Fuck this game
I'll be more than happy to see heroes find a way in to be sealed in the great seal from P3 Reload it self, but I think Boom ice and lyrics deserve this more.
I think heroes is funny. The level design is cool and the way it works is simple for the most part. But, everytime i play it some BS happens, then i just can't play it anymore because of it. It really shows that the game was rushed. I still think its a mid game tho, not a bad one, but not good either
@@shaulov10yeah, i always use flight to land on rails because im scared of missing it, and I love final rush mind you. But yeah, the thing about this game is that its a good game...when it works. But it doesn't work consistently, you can adapt to its jankyness but its clear that its struggling to run properly. If they remaster this game i can see them ironing some things out to make this game more polished, so who knows. But in the state that its in today, nah, its too broken to be good
Yeah I can see your perspective how this game is badly designed I think the hit system was bad I don’t think everyone even uses it at all but the stage gimmick and physics just makes it bad not only slippery physics that makes a game experience worse than any to be honest. I think having hint guides to tell u what to do is a huge mistake and it’s like making u think oh it’s just an easy mode or whatever it is but it’s clearly not.
One does not get away with insulting my son. Just don't let it happen again, or else I'll have to compliment a certain game. A game that's out of this world... Out of this Lost World some say.
Kid let me school you first off you probably was in diapers when this game came out. This came out in in 2003 it was a big sonic game and new mechanics from the adventure games. But I garentee you when they remake the is game you gonna be eating crow trust
@@pcarlylegaming jackass I played this game when it came out. And I still hated it, so did my cousin, my brother, my uncle, no one like the game back when It came out. And if you really did play it when it came out you know that this game was panned on release.If they ever remake this game there gonna have to basically change how it works. Go back to the retirement home and take your meds your going crazy
Don’t let Splash Dash find your home address…
Tell him imma run the fade
Or premydaremy
wait does splash dash like heroes?
Sega takes sonics motto of “gotta go fast” too seriously
Sega he means run fast not develop the games fast
SEASIDE HILL >>>>>>>>>>> GREEN HILL
(It has nothing to do with the video, but it's never wrong to throw out facts.)
honestly, true
You're goddam right
As someone who grew up with the adventure games on PS3 I remember reallyyyy wanting to play heroes back in the day, I finally got to play it on dolphin in 2021, and whew.. was I disappointed 😭😭
I just played through heroes and enjoyed way more than I thought I would and I realised I don’t give this game enough credit. Granted I was using a few mods but they barely changed anything
man even after learning to play the "Right Way" it's just not fun. it just boils down to spamming attack buttons while occasionally switching characters
@@shaulov10 no it doesn't
@@AccelerateHedge don’t make me call Gdub
@@shaulov10i don’t mind that :p
but i like sonic heroes :(
Edit: ok um a couple things i noticed in the video i might come of as mean but i just wanted to point things out
The game DOES teach you how to use the combat system in the first/second level
"Let's leave the flying enemies to Tails. He'll bring them down using Thunder Shoot."
"When jumping, press the B Button in power formation to use Fire Dunk. I turn Sonic and Tails into fireballs to shoot at enemies"
"Pressing the B Button during a jump while in speed formation allows you to attack enemies on the ground with Blue Tornado"
Also skiping the tutorial and saying the game sucks cause it doesnt teach you anything is really really dumb.
It's different, that doesnt make it bad, You wouldnt jump into sonic gens and say it sucks cause you've only played sa2.
And when you litterally SKIP the thing telling you how to play and say "games bad cause it doesnt teach you" and your only reasoning for skiping it is cause you didnt notice one of the TWO different options on the MAIN SCREEN isnt the games fault.
well... womp womp
Exactly bro, you get it😭🙏
@@kirbystar9194 your still missing the point. Who realistically is gonna go into the tutorial when playing the game? And again my main issue still stands. The game funnels you into playing ONE SPECIFIC WAY to have fun. That is bad game design
@@shaulov10 Amy's story _STARTS_ with the Tutorial.
@@shaulov10 WHY ARENT YOU *STARTING* WITH THE TUTORIAL??
also the game DOES have its different styles of play.
One fun thing is if you do the little mini tornado thing knuckles does when pressing B in the air with sonic and tails, you can break the blocks in the first and second level without using the punches and not slowing you down so you can keep a flow.
Skiping platforming sections with tails, jumping to another far away section with the rocket accel theres more to the game than just swap here swap there.
You know it’s bad when you start praising the pinball machine from Sonic Frontiers 💀
Bro at least I can sort of predict where the ball is gonna go
Yeah can't lie Frontiers pinball mini game is less insufferable then heros, even if we've all been pissed off by that pinball mini game in Chaos Island, Knight was one damn of a way to end the Island with a bang.@@shaulov10
Exactly
Nah man sonic frontiers is srsly honestly the most flawed sonic game even more than sonic boom and sonic 06. @@shaulov10
@@shaulov10 I hate that pinball I prefer casino park over it
If I had to play a game "the right way" to have a fun time, then that actively hurts the game in multiple ways. I want to be able to boot up Bloons Tower Defense and spam a bunch of dart monkeys then I should be able to do that and still have fun. Sure, maybe it's not the best thing to do, but at least I'm having fun. Here? No...
Nah I played Heroes completely wrong as a teen and still had fun.
Bro exactly. After ocean palace you gotta just play the”right way” or it’s not a good experience
@@shaulov10 Tf you mean Grand Metropolis is peak
@@akdreamer6497and final fortress
The stuff I love in this game is the music(of course) and Neo metal sonic. Him taking over eggman’s army sounds cool
bro mentioned everything EXCEPT the gameplay
Yeah, the gameplay is not good
Also in order to play the last story,you need to beat the game 4 TIMES!!!
@@Arcs358At this rate I enjoyed Shadow the Hedgehog because at least the levels are all different, and the story is more like an Adventure Sonic then this cartoon thing.
@@TeriosOrphues oh and bullet station will be in sonic x shadow generations
I hated the fact that tails didn't even get to friggin touch the ground with his feet and let you freeroam with him solo, it was bothering!
thank goodness for mods though 🙌
bro i hate that tails just stops moving in place when you run out of stamina
@@shaulov10 real! like let the poor boy be independent on his own without his team dragging him down :(
When you view and play heroes like the adventure games of course you're not gonna have a fun time. Heroes style is an in-between hybrid of those games. And whats so complicated about the combat, its pretty easy to grasp. If my dumbass 8yr can understand, Im sure anyone else can.
and what do you mean by not playing the game the right way, do you not use the other characters or do you just try and complete the level with only sonic?
The combat ain’t difficult. My issue is that in order to try and have fun. You are funnled down playing one way to do so. That’s stupid. If people don’t want to engage in combat that should be a viable option. And if you want people to engage in the combat. Maybe idk, make the game fun to play to encourage me to actually do so
@@shaulov10there are many viable options, like skipping sections or optimizing your team blast usage. Combat is less mandatory than you think
Sonic Heroes was the first game I ever played and it's my favorite game of all time (could be nostalgia) , and yes it's janky as fuck and it's basically a middle finger to new players, so here's some tips I always give to new players:
1- The level up order should be like this [Get Sonic to lvl2 -> Tails lvl2 -> Sonic and Tails to lvl 3 then finally Knuckles] The reason why you want to hold off leveling up Knux for as long as possible is because most enemies can be taken out with no problem as Sonic or Tails so leveling him up is useless especially in the early game, you can do that by killing all the early enemies with Knux which will make them drop the power cores of the other 2 characters.
2- Try to avoid the jank as much as possible, for example, instead of getting directly on the pinball table, just use your flying character to fly as close as possible to the exit when you have the chance.
3- Tails is too slow, what you can do to avoid this problem is to basically use the rocket accel as Sonic and after taking off change to Tails then keep moving (or start flying to fly longer distances) yes it's most likely not intentional but I could argue that breaking the game is more fun than having to live by it's rules.
4- There is no saving for the last section of Mystic Mansion (fuck those pumpkin ghosts) but I noticed that if you hold the jump button after the homing attack the other characters won't attack the ghosts.
5- Fuck Team Chaotix and the tutorial section there's no saving them.
6- You can always play any team you like without playing the other teams, it's not like you'll be missing much.
@@RedditorGogeta again, no disrespect to you, I feel like this whole comment proves my point. You have to do so much to just play the game in one specific way so that the game is fun. And I feel like I can’t forgive the game for that. Maybe if more play styles were viable I would be kinder to the game
@@shaulov10 Yeah I can see where you're coming from my man
Basically, i love everything about this game except playing it
And i even like playing secret rings
Both games are the same. Everything about them is amazing EXCEPT the actual gameplay
@@shaulov10Bro don't forget that the story and writing and character treatment in heroes was a bunch of bullsh!t the levels themes and songs are not all memorable except for This Machine and Team Chaotic. Secret Rings has only screwed the gameplay.
@@TeriosOrphuesI think you got heroes and secret rings mixed up 💀
About that part about the game having to be fun on a first playthrough. That made me think of DMC 5.
DMC 5 is arguably the most accessible and easiest game in the series, and you can basically go through the whole game by just button mashing and not interacting with it's deeper mechanics. But it's still a very enjoyable experience on the first playthrough.
And when you delve into the more complex mechanics, like jump cancelling and style switching, it becomes a hundred times more fun than it alreay is.
Wish i could say the same for Sonic Heroes.
I love Heroes, but I only play the game with tons of mods that improve a lot of things. I do this with all sonic games. To play any sonic game without mods is just asking for a worse experience. I love frontiers but I will NEVER play it vanilla. Mods only!
Sonic Heroes is such a janky, arduous chore of a game to finish because of janky collision, super repetitive game design, and the worst special stages EVER. I played it recently and it was so exhausting
But everytime I look at the game, it fills me with nostalgia and sweet memories of my childhood cos this game was what made me a Sonic fan and i have so many good memories of playing it with my friends and my brother, so I think even though this game is like a 5/10 I have so many fond memories that its one of my favourites LMAOO
Nostalgia is a dangerous thing man
As someone who wants to be a game designer when im older, I agree with your points. A game should be fun to play for everyone to play, not just be played the right way. I hate when people say that because to me they are sweats that have no life. Im a defender when it comes to games like sonic and the secret rings and I can admit when a game is flawed but when your defending a game make sure you don't say "its beacuse you didnt play the right way" thats like saying nuh uh in court that argument will be invailed. I've never played Sonic heroes before but if the issue is me not playing the right way and looking up a tutorial then im out. Also I think thet should've done a tutorial for any team you start with and then for the rest would have no tutorial and if you need it there would be a secrion in the menu that allows you to re play it. Fire video as always
Heroes is catastrophic.
I forced myself to end this game and I swear it was one of the worst game experiences I had in my life
It barley holds togheter, 80% of my deaths were because of the game's fault, not mine
Speed characters slip all over the place, power characters it's just mash one button prying to not fall from the stage and flying characters are boring, just used to pass through some rings and that's all
Even the bosses doesn't work, you have to find a way to cheese every fight to make them tolerable
It’s not a good game. We hate heroes
Honestly, I always thought Sonic Heroes was overrated. Many UA-camrs such as premydaremy, Splash Dash/LS Mark, and Matthasnocuts glaze this game to kingdom come, but I played it a while back and I just couldn't see the hype. It's a decent game, just not an amazing one like others have claimed imo
I think it has to do with the fact that they might have grown up with it. But even I grew up with it and still didn’t like it
Matthasnocuts? What? He hates heroes to death
7:32 I actually wasn't prepared for the difficulty spike in Metropolis.
I mean idk it’s like the last traditional zone so I expected it to be tough
This game rules and i didn't even play it the "right way" for the first several playthroughs
It fun and well design
nuh uh
@@shaulov10 oooooh this is my first sonic game ever I and I loved the level design
@@Toysonicandfriends2That explains it
I like Sonic Heroes
@@StickmanGuides I would have never guessed
This is the only time i ever get to say "nu uh" and its actually right
@@gamigem wrong*
ive been playing sonic heroes on gc and i really want to love it cus the game sounds so cool in concept but the controls, level design, and jank really ruins it 😭
also the chaotix story is so boring
Like bro everything bout this game is cool EXCEPT the game itself 😭
@@shaulov10 i keep trying to play the levels like "maybe today i will have some fun" and im always wrong
Even tho i don't like heroes, i just have to mention that there is a tutorial button in the menu for any heroes team so its not just amy's team
I mentioned that. But realistically who is going to the tutorial? Like if I was a newcomer I would just jump into the game. They could have put the tutorial for the first story you play but they didn’t
I mentioned that. But realistically who is going to the tutorial? Like if I was a newcomer I would just jump into the game. They could have put the tutorial for the first story you play but they didn’t
@@shaulov10 you are right but, where did you mention that??? am i stupid of something???
@@kostaunboxinghe did at 4:47
Oh, ok
CHILL ON MY GOAT HEROES 😭
I prefer heroes stages I loved
Grand metropolis
Casino park
Rail canyon
Heroes has one of the best level designs of all sonic games, what r you smoking? I can agree that it can be frustrating with some glitches even tho you don't experience them much if you learn the game. Guess other complains is just skill issue you can have fun with it without deeply learning the game cuz it's pretty straight forward.
Heroes level design peaked at the first level. After that it just noes dives in quality. Do not get me started on mystic mansion. Also saying skill issue isn’t an argument the game is hella easy. People love to say how this game is so “complex” when it really just boils down to spamming attack until sonic is level 3 so you can just kill everything. The game is boarding, broken and unintuitive
A remaster or remake of the game could show the full potential and vision the creators probably had in their time crunch. Just like Sonic 06, Sonic and the Secret Rings, and Sonic Forces, and how they got fan-made remakes, remasters, or mods, something like those would be great to see. This game definitely has flaws, but Sonic Team was cooking something. They had a vision.
@@barneythedino4301 idk man. I used to think this but like if they did do a remake this game would basically need an overhaul. Whole systems would have to be changed to support multiple play styles so that the main issue of playing the “right way” isn’t there. There needs to be multiple viable play styles
This video is literally the: " Hey Guys... QUIT HAVINNNNNNNNNNG FUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!"
Heroes? Fun? Not possible
@@shaulov10Bruh, there's a little varying characteristic known as TASTE
Heroes isn't even my fav game, it's got a lot of flaws, but sorry...Skill Issue.
I've been a Sonic fan since the 90's, and Heroes came out when I was in 6th grade. I immediately got the hang of the game and beat Team Dark's story first. There was no "whiplash" for me.
I just adjusted my play style for that specific game. There may not be a "correct" way to play, but you can still play if you actually pay attention.
You completely missed the point. The fact alone that you are funneled down one play style in order to have fun is bad game design. If the game allowed for different play styles I would be more forgiving. It has nothing to do with a “skill issue” the game ain’t that hard, it’s hella basic. People love to over exaggerate how “complex” this game is when in reality you just spam attack with different characters until you level up sonic to just over power everything.
Sonic heroes was my entrance to the series and even I can admit its issues
It was I. I started this game from the tutorial mode since it was my first 3D console game..... These days I occasionally turn this game on and collect A ranks to have some fun, but I do agree that platformers shouldn't be designed in this way. I'm used to Sonic Heroes' slippery control so I don't have much problem playing it, but I still ask to myself why it is made like this😅
4:22 yes it does, the game naturally will show you what characters to use to get rid of certain enemies for example in both ocean palace and power plant there are section that have those hovering green robots in sections that you are obviously supposed to use tails, so naturally you will use thundershoot to stun them to the ground and then use sonic or knuckles to destroy them
Then later when your fully leveled up with tails you find that out that you can just use thundershoot to destroy those green robots.
Also in seaside hill, there’s a section that has a bunch of enemies in front of two rocks that ur supposed to break with knuckles, you have to destroy the enemies to break the rocks and there’s that red bar that automatically switches you to power type so naturally you will use knuckles to get rid of the enemies, which teaches you that knuckles is the overall best for combat
Also there are those hint question marks that you can use if you are stuck
Or you can just naturally figure it yourself, it’s not hard at all
This is literally just a skill issue
This is why this Sonic game NEEDS a potential remake for the next generation of ALL game consoles.
I can see why people don’t enjoy heroes but I personally think it’s fun and there are some of my favorite Sonic levels are in this game
This video has been long time coming🔥🔥🔥💯💯🗣🗣
I let the Demons out 😈
I feel like all the mechanics together represent the characters well, but would be difficult (not impossible though) to impliment into one game revolving around the three of them at once. Looking at Team Sonic, a game with enemies that have health, thus requiring combat, is definitely something Knuckles would fit in, whereas a puzzle game sounds like something for Tails. But we're shoving that into a game called *Sonic* Heroes, of which would get slowed down by these kinds of aspects being tossed in without enough thought (another example of how more developement time would've done Heroes a tremendous favor). In a game titled after the fasting thing alive, slowness is something you'd want to avoid at all costs. Now that's not to disregard the other teams and how, on their own, they could make interesting gameplay segments, levels, etc. but if we wanted a team-composition-focused game named after the embodiment of acceleration itself, it would all have to blend into a much smoother experience. It's even to where Sonic is so uncontrollably fast to try to make up for lost time that his speed starts to slow down the experience again from the jank of the controls
I had a blast with this game. The levels were great and while the controls are janky, what is sonic without jank? Learning the game didnt require much thought. Wanna spin an enemy into the air? Use sonic. Wanna ground a flying enemy? Use tails. Wanna rip through enemies like butter? Use knuckles. I found the combat and level up system satisfying personally. Obviously the game doesn’t handle very well, and the player shouldn’t have to compensate for that. The fact that all 4 campaigns have the same levels in the same order sucks. Overall though, playing sonic heroes, despite its buginess, was a blast.
I'm a firm believer that anyone who actually likes this game had it when they were growing up. That's the only why they learnt how to play "the right way". Via countless playthroughs because it was one of the few games thy had when they were younger. And naturally, they grew to love it.
But they seem to forget that not everyone has nostalgia for this game nor the experience that comes with said nostalgia.
I said on a Gamescage video about Sonic experiences in different generations, that a lot of discourse in in this fanbase comes from the fact that Sonic has been going for decades, so many different views of what Sonic "should be" or the best Sonic has come about. And the reason for a lot of this is different times of nostalgia. I closed of with this:
"I think a lot of discourse in this fanbase wouldn't be if we looked beyond their points, beyond the reasoning behind the arguments. If we looked at their nostalgia. Because _even then_ if we were to imagine ourselves as a kid with a game you despise, you could understand why they loved the game."
Basically, a lot of takes in this fanbase, and a lot of others come from being blinded by nostalgia. And when people don't realize it, it becomes hard to accept other opinions. This is most likely what happened with the people saying "your just not playing it the "right way" ". Oblivious to the way they actually learnt the "right way". Via years of experience. Of course newcomers are going to struggle to like it as you do.
It’s kinda ironic since sonic fans are so agains nostalgia bait but when it comes to a game they like they turn tables, which I’m not gonna blame them for. I have nostalgia for secret ring’s despite the game being absolute booty to play. But I’m always able to look past my biases, even with SA2. I love that game but I can understand why nowadays it may not have aged well
I played it for the first time in 2020 and loved it to bits. It's not as straightforward as you think
@@playbossthebest936 Obviously its not going to be the exact same for everyone. Some people, like you sir over here, are just built different. Some people are made for this game, others aren't.
Also, kinda ironic how you say, since it not being that straightforward is many people's problem with this game 💀
One thing you didn't mention is that characters say things to indicate who would be best for each type of situation. Things like "Sonic, get rid of that shield". I admit it may be unintuitive, but only because it's more complex than most Sonic games. I would say a game being complex and unintuitive isn't necessarily a bad thing (like Monster Hunter), but I guess in the context of the Sonic series, it would be kind of shocking.
I personally like the complexity of the combat system. I liked discovering that a level 3 Sonic has wind properties on his homing attack and that it works with the auto-homing when playing as Knuckles too. I liked discovering that Thunder Shoot at level 3 could take out rows of standard enemies. I liked figuring out that Blue Tornado can act as a jump extender and give a height increase. But I can understand that it's only really good for people who like to dig into mechanics and see the details of it all.
You had some fair points. Not exactly well designed for newcomers. But I still don't think it's bad that you have to understand a game's mechanics well to enjoy it well. It's just a different kind of game.
@@MarkerMurker again I think the main issue is that the game funnels you down playing one way in order to have fun. If other play styles were viable I wouldn’t be as tough on the game
hello there Shaulov10, boy oh boy, you made a video about sonic heroes, while the game is certainly very flawed, but man do i have so many ideas in regards to how the game could've been better, and i certainly want to share those ideas with any one with those kind of perspectives like yours to help paint a clairer picture on how the game's issues could've been avoided
first the campaign structure , and here i think some thing NEED to be said in regards to playing four teams which , it CAN BE handled in a different way that is far more tolerable and makes it good enough to complete the game, in which each team still has its own campaign but WITH ONLY CERTAIN levels, not all of them, which from my perspective go like this
Team Sonic : Seaside Hill, Ocean Palace, Grand Metropolis, Power Plant, Casino Park, Bingo Highway, Rail Canyon, Bullet Station, Frog Forest, Lost Jungle, Hang Castle, Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, and Final Fortress
Team Dark : Seaside Hill, Ocean Palace, Casino Park, Bingo Highway, Hang Castle, Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, and Final Fortress
Team Chaotix : Grand Metropolis, Power Plant, Rail Canyon, Bullet Station, Frog Forest, Lost Jungle, Egg Fleet, and Final Fortress
other than that, i think that team rose should be some sort of a side story that is optional to play, meaning that you'll have only 3 teams with the entire game being played for over a little bit more than twice rather than four times to unlock the final boss, an other thing i want to point out has to do with none other than the level design
i don't know how you'll feel about that, but while i'm fine with sonic heroes stages being the way they are, i understand though that for a lot of people, this is one of those things that do not sit well with them, especially in regards to how flat the level design is, that no matter how good or engaging each level flow is , that level that feel like flat space with a certain amount of level geometry, repetitive sections of each level, along with a very restrictive amount of alternate paths , just take away from the experience for a lot of people
how ever
a certain fan game i stumbled upon named Sonic World DX, which did a FANTASTIC job making many characters feel like their unique style of game while being fast paced, has what i believe to be one of, if not the best versions of seaside hill i've ever seen , you may be surprised if i told you this, but aside from the fact that this fan game has the team based mechanic , that seaside hill i'm talking about has SOOOOOO much going on , from alternate paths, open spaces, taking advantage of different character types, it's so good that i found myself spending a lot of time playing this fan made version of the stage that i'm till founding out about many ways how to go across the level, which far surprass any stage from sonic heroes, which show what heroes could've truly been , had it more development time rather than what they did to lizuka who lost over 22 pounds working on the game and nearly lost his life, which is some thing he never deserved to go through, so , what if sonic heroes can have that much quality in level design, while here is my ideas
for Ocean Palace, Power Plant, Bingo Highway, Bullet Station, and Lost Jungle, those levels should follow some thing along the lines of a well balanced approach of speed, platforming, and exploration, where there is quite a number of paths to take in , with a lot but good amount of open space and engaging level geometry to go through, allowing for far more creativity of going through those levels, those levels would be the biggest challenge to deal with, specially Bullet station which would require the biggest over haul of them all, but i don't think it can not be pulled off
for Seaside Hill, Grand Metropolis, Casino Park, Rail Canyon, Frog Forest, Hang Castle, Mystic Mansion, Egg Fleet, and Final Fortress, those stages should follow some thing along the lines of a speed, and platforming balanced approach, exploration on the other hand would be far little present, regulated mostly for secret areas, while those stages would be a different challenge of their own, but i think they are easier to deal with, Hang Castle, Mystic Mansion, and Final Fortress, would require a lot of over haul though
and those are my ideas, what are your thoughts about it , don't forget to talk about it in a reply though
And the fact this game came out after SA2 ☠️
This man knows how it is
We can agree on this a Sonic Community....Bullet Station's OST goes hard though
I used to think Heroes was a good introduction to the Series because of the characters you play and meet but yeah. I can see on first playthroughs how the controls and combat could frustrate those people
I feel like sonic heroes is my guilty pleasure. Like yes, it is very VERY buggy and I always have to switch to the flight character to not fly off a cliff.
But I feel like because I’ve mentally adjusted to the games… “quirks” if you will, I have fun with it(plus nostalgia)
But you’re not wrong. The game is bad on a “functionalility” level, but I love it to death😭✋. (Good video btw)
@@Ehhhhhh- I get it. But again what bugs me about it is that, like you mentioned. You have to basically learn how to avoid breaking the game to have fun. I think that goes even harder against my whole point of funneling you down one playstyle. Now you have to play the game one specific way to have fun AND avoid the jank.
Ok Shaulov man. Like I agree this game mid asf but like comparing it to Elden Ring is insane work
Well I’m comparing it by how accessible it is. Elden ring, a game that is notoriously difficult, is still more beginner friendly because of how well designed it it’s. And it’s embarrassing that heroes is less accessible
@@shaulov10 fair...fair
This the Game is Fine but you’re got to admit only one person made the game later into development Sooo The Issues are not That Surprising
that's why i usually cut the game some slack
@@shaulov10 Ok
I'll always love Sonic Heroes no matter what
Even if heroes is tecnically bad designed, i rlly enjoy the game.
I love the rock paper scissors ideia and the level design, but i have to admit heroes is not for everyone, and if you need to learn the game the "right way", to like it. It means its design incorrectly, and i definetly see your point and respect it.
And even if you play the tutorial the game its still bad at explaining wtf you need to do😭, its like riders the game doesnt explains how it works.
But i still think forces its worse, because even if you play forces in the right way, its not fun lol.
Edit: just saying i am not the best guy at critcize games, i just enjoy what i think its fun, but i can notice when the game is flawed, even if you say that at the start of th game sonic, tails and knuckles kinda teachs you how you supposed to play. Lets say that its still not that obvious, imo most people would just ignore it, sure people will pay attention when the tutorial litterally stops you. But the game still could tach you in a very intuitve way, like sa2 city escape, or the first level in mario bros, this are gteat examples in stages that have great design and teaches you while you are playing the stage in a very intuitive way. Other thing, not saying the oevel design is bad, i acctually think its pretty decent, rewarding you for doing the good path way, and punishing you for doing something wrong (even if it punishes you a little to hard) but the way it introduces you the mecanichs its not that good.
I figured out how to figth diferent enemys by myself is not that hard to guess tbh
Haven't even watched the video yet, but I already agree with you: after the "new game" feeling wore off, I noticed everything is annoying and unbearably dumb
Honestly, as much as I like Sonic Riders, I do understand why people wouldn’t like it, because it shares similar issues that this game does. It’s better once you get good at it, but it’s unlikely that same person won’t pick it back up after their first go.
But again, I feel like you still have different presumptions when going to a racer to a platformer. You kinda expect to have to learn the mechanics of the game like a fighter. But most platformers don’t work like that
@@shaulov10
Yeah but compare Riders to Mario Kart or Sega All Stars Racing. People tend to prefer those games for their overall simplicity.
I will give heroes one credit i like that i cant do in any other game. Team darks team blast can stop time wgich means anything in the level. So during the power plant rising lava section i used the team bladt top stop the rising lava fir a bit to get my barings or run ahead of the lava to gain some distance when it got too close
I have thought this game was shit my whole life and I am happy to finally see others think so. Every single UA-camr I know that likes this game does because of nostalgia.
Premydaremy is gonna get very angry at this
Hope he does
1:24 Obviously Sonic is literally the speed type, obviously he does this to show that he is the fastest, for platforms he uses the vol type that flies so much and is slower than Sonic
4:55 or just go into the menu and select the tutorial option
Skill issue tbh
Naahhh but for real now. From someone who wasn’t the biggest fan of heroes as a kid, and now appreciates the game a lot, I do understand where you’re coming from. I think you make valid points, but they just don’t affect me, cause the game is really fun to me.
I had a similar thing happen with Treasure hunting levels in SA2. They were a bit confusing for me as a Kid, and I was easily frustrated too. But now I love those levels, tryna get the emerald shard as fast as I can.
Heroes isn’t designed all too well mechanically, and it’s hard for newcomers. Yeah most Sonic games have those aspects that are hard to get into for casuals. But I do agree Heroes is worse in that regard. But I never hated the game. And I just learned to enjoy it
Switching between the members and thinking about the best possible way to tackle the games obstacles and challenges is really fun to do. It could be polished up, and sometimes the game has some big glitches that can frustrate players, but I still love the game regardless. Not my favorite Sonic game, nor on the top 3 or anything, but I do appreciate the game a lot. And I find it to be really fun. But I do understand where people are coming from when they talk about the games’ flaws, cause they are real. They just don’t affect me, you know?
Heck, I don’t even mind playing Team Chaotix. They’re definitely the worse campaign but I can still tolerate that campaign well. And I don’t personally feel that the game is repetitive. I understand the other complaints about the game, but I never felt the game was repetitive, not even as a kid. Each campaign is kinda short so playing 4 times with different level design doesn’t feel repetitive or boring to me tbh.
But I do have to agree that Casino Park and Bingo Highway are by far the worst levels in the game. I can tolerate them now, but they left me permanent scars as a kid, I can’t lie 🥲
Heroes was fun from what I played, I think there’s alot of good aspects about it, and I think the combat would be fine if I didn’t know from a tutorial cuz you kinda just do what other sonic games do, and I like the werehog too I noticed that! Plus Sonic games have alot of types of games, so a puzzle game isn’t out of the blue
Man idk every time besides frontiers. Sonic tries to do combat, it just falls flat on its face, heroes just ends up being the worst iteration
@@shaulov10 it falls flat on Its face on fun. I can beat the first werehog level in like 8 minutes and while then I’m having a good time, pacing is more important than how long a level is, and eggman land is a great example of that with how much stuff your thrown at and it takes an hour. Frontiers also isn’t the best tbh, it doesn’t have as much moves as the werehog and there isn’t as much cool skips you can use with them, which is one of my fav parts about it the werehog because not only for fighting enemies but using those moves to traverse through levels alot quicker, and one of Sonic’s best aspects from games like the classics is learning and improving on stuff like the time and the general gameplay
Enemies having health is one of the major reasons.
THAT ASWELL!
@@shaulov10to the person who said "you're not playing it the right way" as a kid I would be speed unless I felt like I needed to switch for combat or obstacle" if I played heroes now I would be "speed and switch to who has the highest level up at the moment and hope it's flight" both I'm experiencing the same level of "enjoyment" to the game
But you know who does work?
I wonder who?
Heroes is definitely one of the most uninviting games for a first playthrough (unless you've basically 'looked it up' per se, as you mention). I can't compare it to much other than Lost World in that regard, which is of course even more extremely rock bottom than Heroes is in quality. In both scenarios I'd argue it's near opposite to Forces, which is very easy for a newcomer to play, but has so little depth that it dries out all the fun or whatever other incentive to spend time with. It isn't hard to play "right" at all, it's just boring.
True. And again. My biggest point is that you shouldn’t have to be forced to play the right way to have fun. Make other gameplay styles viable
@@shaulov10team rose?
If you're playing Heroes, I'd suggest checking out Sonic 06! It's great for you.
Yap yap yap, anyway sonic heroes is an amazing sonic game with such good level design, alternate pathways, unique gimmicks, fun and responsive rail mechanics and 12 playable characters into groups of four, the controls are solid and the physics are more forgiving and heroes has some of the best levels in the entire series, heroes is an A to S tier sonic game I recommend for everyone to play it, its a near masterpiece (unlike SA2)
@@SAMURAIPACK456 bro snorted a line of coke infused with fentanyl before typing this atrocious take
@@shaulov10its not a take, its an objective fact and by the way, every complaint you had about this game is exactly what SA2 has but far worse, SA1 and heroes are amazing, better then SA2
@@SAMURAIPACK456 that’s is just untrue. Sure the knuckles stages aren’t good but atleast you don’t have to play the same game 4 times to get the final story. And the speed stages are really good. Heroes is a broken mess and is probably one of, if not the worst designed sonic game technically, and gameplay wise
Definitely disagree with basically the majority here, as a sonic heroes lover. I don't think you're entirely wrong, so I'm gonna give my take. For the whole tutorial, I feel like it can be either the game's fault or the player's fault, in this case it's both. I think it's unfair to blame it on the game while it does have an actual tutorial, and it's not really starting from Amy's story. The charming dialogue of the characters mentions it, and there are those question markers to help. Not listening or reaching out is solely on the player's fault. Then again, it's not often those tutorials really show up or somewhat hard to spot, so that's where I say it's the game's fault. Nonetheless, heroes has great level design, so I lean towards the player's fault.
Also, the "right way" is more like the "expert/experienced way." I do think you can be stupid and go through these levels just fine. The game does a good job progressing the difficulty with the except of some levels (that I personally don't take issue). I know you take issue that heroes is unfriendly to newcomers, but I'd personally say this BEEN an issue with sonic games. Countless times I've seen people, especially casuals, just not understand how sonic works. This isn't just heroes, but mostly with the ambitious titles like CD, adventure games, and storybook games just to name a few. The points said in the video can honestly be directed the same to those games. "The camera, the controls, the stupid nature of it, sonic games were never good." I will go as far to say this why casuals will think like ign does because they just don't get sonic games. You gotta know to know, you know. So just know sonic heroes its not really different from other games besides the mechanics.
Now I'd argue, a GOOD player SHOULD adapt to the game's mechanics which I believe the heroes level design reflects this and is rewarded greatly. Heroes is a much harder game than most sonic games, and I believe the harder, the better. This is why I believe heroes is a much fun game than most sonic games especially with how rewarding for skillful play.
Speaking of fun, I personally don't like how you objectify "fun" (or at least that's how it sounded to me from the video). Fun is subjective, and that's why opinions exist even though opinions can be wrong just like this video 🥴. Half jokingly aside, good video. 👍
I just like it because of the voicelines. There good to use In sprite animation
The level design in frontiers is incromhensible. And i like both games but ill admit frontiers when compared to any triple A game in 2022 is embsrrasing. Where sonic heroes compared to other games in its era is alright
The thing is. Frontiers level design looks unnatural but it flows so well together making it really fun to play. Heroes is heroes. Even comparing heroes to games of the time. It still pales in comparison. Frontiers at the very least is fun to play despite the issues it has and it may not compare to many AAA Games but atleast it’s a good game
Honestly people who hate Sonic Heroes just want to turn their brain off and blast through, no thought required. Personally, I don't want to turn my brain off, I want to be engaged. And that's why sonic Heroes has my favorite gameplay of any game out there. Also "not made for newcomers"? It literally has different difficulties including an easy mode that it describes as being for people who are new to action games. The way people criticize this game makes no sense I swear... Also actual good games such as say, Doom Eternal do in fact have what the developers call the "fun zone" where even in an interview they said "well people would say, oh just let the player play the way they want to play, but really... No game is like that. Our games fun zone is when you're switching weapons constantly and managing resources and thinking about your next move snd if they don't play like that... We kill em." Intelligent developers understand a lot of games have this fun zone and good games actively push the player into their fun zone because there's a specific way they want the players to engage with the game because they as devopers know how the game is best enjoyed. The whole "I shouldn't have to learn how the game works and just have fun anyway crowd clearly don't realize that's how every game or sport works: if yiu play uncharted and never take cover yiu won't get far. If you play Mario kart and never drift you won't get far. If you play Rayman 3 and never strafe yiu won't get far. If you play Tetris and put place he pieces wherever you will not have fun. Every game is like that. Some games are less rigid yes, but that's the exception and not the rule. Good game design pushes the player into their systems and punishes them if they don't engage with them.
You completely missed the point. There are sonic games that are engaging but are still fun. Sonic adventure 2, sonic unleashed, generations. All engage with the player but still provide a fun experience and it won’t force you to play one specific way. HEROES is not fun off rip. Is unintuitive, janky, and poorly designed and the only way for you to try and have fun is to learn a combat system and learn to avoid the jank which that in of itself is bad game design, and if you play any other way you are punished. Let other gameplay styles be viable
Also using the Mario kart or fighting game example is stupid. You expect different things going into different games. Platformer should not funnel you down one specific way of play to have fun. That works for Mario kart and fighting games cause the whole fun of the game is getting good. Not for a casual platformer.
@@shaulov10 multiple styles are viable though if you understand the design. You can play the clear intended way or get a bit experimental and do crazy ships and shortcuts. I understand the frustration in it's overly rigid design but much like a puzzle game, some games are just quite abrasive and put up a lot of resistance to not performing well. It's all preference. I'll give you jank but I've just finished my 6th save file and I appreciate the game more with each playthrough since once you do understand it, playing well becomes extremely satisfying because the power fantasy that is earned is far more rewarding than one that's just given to the player.
this game need a remake for the 40th anneverseary
2:50 CRASHOUT MODE IS IN ACTIVATION AND I SEE RED WHEN IM ANGRY AND THE DEMONS ARE COMING INSIDE OF ME👿👿👿👿
Thank goodness they're doing a Heroes remake over at SEGA HQ, am I right? 😏 ...
( Please don't age poorly lol )
@@fudge_r lets see …
Brother you talking about literally the best sonic game ever exist
Insane take
*worst
The best sonic game is unleashed, but ill gladly change my mind for heroes just to piss shaulov10 off
Sonic 3 and Knuckles still exist bro
Sonic heroes is not bad, but it obviously ain't the best sonic game, I think generations or mania takes it.
I cry 😔
2:13 nah take that back at least is not 10 mins of not fun its a least 5 mins of the stage that feels like the game is controlling it and not me
If Sonic Heroes has 1 hater, I'm there
If Sonic Heroes has a million haters, I'm there
Sonic Heroes is a nightmare come to life which must be destroyed
Fuck this game
Truest statement ever made
I'll be more than happy to see heroes find a way in to be sealed in the great seal from P3 Reload it self, but I think Boom ice and lyrics deserve this more.
Trash Gen z take
@kevin_kevinson Aw, I'm sorry. Would you like some bread with that whine
@@kevin_kevinson okay 👍
I think heroes is funny. The level design is cool and the way it works is simple for the most part. But, everytime i play it some BS happens, then i just can't play it anymore because of it. It really shows that the game was rushed. I still think its a mid game tho, not a bad one, but not good either
Fun fact. If you just hold foward in the beginning of final fortress you’ll die before you even get to the first grind rail
@@shaulov10yeah, i always use flight to land on rails because im scared of missing it, and I love final rush mind you. But yeah, the thing about this game is that its a good game...when it works. But it doesn't work consistently, you can adapt to its jankyness but its clear that its struggling to run properly. If they remaster this game i can see them ironing some things out to make this game more polished, so who knows. But in the state that its in today, nah, its too broken to be good
Prem on the deathwatch 💀💀
💀💀💀
Finally someone saids it, I swear if you put a "Sonic Heroes fan" to play the entire game instead of Sonic story, they would hate it
Yo were right if we liked sonic heroes we really didn’t enjoy this
Suffer
Finally, a reason fo hate on Heroes.
nah i always had fun playing heroes
9:31 you sounded like Chaomix
Nah you got me dead 💀💀💀
@@shaulov10 Well... listen and you'll see 🤣
Is it really that bad? But i do agree that the pinball for sonic frontiers is better
(Even if i dont have those games)
Bro… it might actually be my least favorite sonic game now
11:21 fin.
You just mad this game is getting a remake aren't ya? Hey...kaybe the remake will convince you if they polish it in the remake
I’m actually hopeful for a remake. Maybe they can fix this god forbidden game
I agree man
Yeah I can see your perspective how this game is badly designed I think the hit system was bad I don’t think everyone even uses it at all but the stage gimmick and physics just makes it bad not only slippery physics that makes a game experience worse than any to be honest. I think having hint guides to tell u what to do is a huge mistake and it’s like making u think oh it’s just an easy mode or whatever it is but it’s clearly not.
The game is just a disasterclass in game design
@@shaulov10 agreed. I only played a few minutes of it before I stopped playing and could never go back to it ever again due to how bad it is.
Sonic Heroes controls like shit. I feel thats my main reason isn't fun.
Definitely a major reason
I think it works lol
Sonic Heroes PEAK GAME 😁 imo
Man speeder… you do you man
@@shaulov10 lol I respect your opinions as well from the video 😁
Of the 1998-2006 3d games this is my least favourite
It’s tied for me with 06
4:03 womp womp +didnt asked+skiil issue+l+ratio+sonic heroes+yb better
I like the game and it is fun, your wrong!!!! I win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My fault I guess I’m wrong 😔
listen i love heroes as the next guy but this i agree with him and the a probably a grown ass man that cant take an opinion
9:32 chaomix?
YOU ARE THE SECOND PERSON TO SAY THIS 💀💀
just say u what sonic adventure 3 lil bro
Common Shartlove10 L take.
@@TheNosquick YOU HAVEN’T COMMENTED IN MONTHS AND THIS IS WHAT YOU SAY?!?
One does not get away with insulting my son. Just don't let it happen again, or else I'll have to compliment a certain game. A game that's out of this world... Out of this Lost World some say.
Kid let me school you first off you probably was in diapers when this game came out. This came out in in 2003 it was a big sonic game and new mechanics from the adventure games. But I garentee you when they remake the is game you gonna be eating crow trust
@@pcarlylegaming jackass I played this game when it came out. And I still hated it, so did my cousin, my brother, my uncle, no one like the game back when It came out. And if you really did play it when it came out you know that this game was panned on release.If they ever remake this game there gonna have to basically change how it works. Go back to the retirement home and take your meds your going crazy
@@shaulov10 Nah your whole family hating the game is crazy like is not that bad......