Can you spot the difference between these submachine guns? With firearms expert Jonathan Ferguson
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- Опубліковано 16 лис 2021
- This week Jonathan looks at the curious story of the Vigneron submachine and why these two weapons are more than meets the eye.
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I hope Jonathan is doing ok after his review on Vangaurd guns on Gamespot
Just about holding it together thanks :D
@@jonathanferguson1211 I hope that as historian you will never have to play Singleplayer of CoD: Vanguard
@@jonathanferguson1211 its ok, that monster already leave
@@jonathanferguson1211 whats the black rifle over you're left shoulder?. keep up the good work
@@whitewidowgaming4887 Beretta ARX-160.
Jonathan giggling when he says "butt" is my favorite content
This channel is a hidden gem. Jonathan is such an affable bloke and he imparts his knowledge so well. Not to mention his sense of humour and taste in rock bands.
His style is distinctive.
Never noticed rock band thing,intrigued now
@@marcraygun6290 Yeah, same. What bands is he into?
@@mikeycraig8970 Ghost, for one
You need to multitasking during his videos. You get to play "what is this gun" at the same time as playing "what is this shirt," and if it's a video shot from home, you also get to play "how many Sci fi references can you see on the shelf behind him?"
They are both handled by a legend.
You are far too kind.
I can’t tell if the real legend just comment on this or just a legend pretending to be both are good tho
@@Nukaboy-fb5kn Ask me something only I would know. Wait, that won't work. It is me anyway :)
I still have a picture of my dad as a soldier in the Belgian Army in 1967, holding a Vigneron. I used to have the original manual, but that got misplaced somewhere during the last 30 years.
As a born US citizen, it's so awesome to hear all these intricacies articulated in UK English. It's so soothing!
Belgium: We need to replace the sten
Imperia: Makes another sten
Stën. 😁
4:28 somewhere garand thumb is smiling
4:30, he wanted to say “tip to butt” like garand thumb I think lol.
Haha, I absolutely did.
I love it when he held the Sturmgewehr close and said. "Everything is gonna be ok." Every gunsmith I've watched said the same thing to it ROFL
I'm a simple man. I see Jonathan, I click like.
Even on another channel!
Even on another continent!!
EVEN...
thank god jonathan is alive after the vanguard incident
Our boy looks like he's recovered from his reaction video to COD Vanguard.
The “Leger” in ABL, by the way, is the Dutch word for army (pronounced, roughly, “leeecherr” where ch is as in “loch”) rather than the French word for light. And for an English speaker, the word “Belgische” is extremely challenging to pronounce - for much the same reason that “Scheveningen” was allegedly used by the Dutch resistance as a shibboleth to root out German infiltrators.
Ah, thank you. I think I did a slightly better job explaining the ABL mark in a previous video funnily enough.
Great comment. Thank you for that.
Handige manier om de g klank uit te leggen
@@miskapiska2188 Bedankt! Het is niet makkelijk voor een Engelstalig, maar Nederlands is zo'n leuke taal dat het de moeite waard is.
Oh, you whacky Belgians and your love of Shibboleths! "Shield and Friend!"
Mp40 and grease gun had a baby
It's great to see the collections being showcased in this format!
Its pleasant to hear you talk without the constant music in the background.
Very interesting submachineguns that i did not know beforehand. They have indeed a very grease-gun and MP40 vibe.
I have seen you with Ian before; good to see you sharing arms history mate.
I’m assuming your other hand would be gripping right on the magazine well, much like an MP-40. It doesn’t look like you’d have much room to grip things behind the magazine or by the barrel. Not to mention gripping the barrel looks like a good way to burn your hand.
My grandpa used one in the army , said it was only good for shooting around corners 😂
Jonathan is a the guy you really like and respect that gives you so much helpful info without knowing you
Whether you want it or not :D
A lot of informations here! Great work from Mr.Ferguson. Thanks!
Thank you!
A guy I knew was captured in 1940 along with his unit. They were regulars. So stayed in the army. In 1946 he was potrolling in berlin with a fellow ex prisoner. His friend tripped while checking the ruins and shot himself in the head with his sten gun. Total waist of a life. Those things were dangerous.
They may have been made to replace the STEN but they did not replace them all. I recall seeing a Belgique soldier on guard at an army camp (in Belgium) in '83 or '84 and he was armed with a STEN gun (may have been a MkII?).
Things like that happen. I saw US Sailors on guard in the 1980s still carrying revolvers. Guards usually get the old crap!
Ya'll Take Care and be safe, John
@@JohnDoe-pv2iu The U.S. military were still issuing revolvers, albeit ones produced in the late ‘50s thru the mid ‘70s, even as late as the ‘90s, it was seeing U.S. personnel heading up to the Kuwaiti border during the first Gulf War carrying M3 Grease Guns that really surprised me.
Sten was indeed used wel into eighties , but I reserve units , no first line.
Jonathon, were you serious about needing an early series magazine for the Japanese Type 100 submachine gun? I live in Japan and am pretty certain there's one of those amongst the effects of my FiL's late mother. It belonged to her long-dead husband, who served in the Japanese military during WW2. It's in storage elsewhere but I can probably locate it again given a bit of time and effort.
Send it in! I'm certain it will be much appreciated.
Jonathan needing out? Let me get some popcorn, and my day will be complete.
Jonathan, I love your videos. They are my background audio while studying. I hope you are enjoying making these videos as much as I enjoy listening them
Johnathan thank you for all the videos you make and to all the employees at the royal armorers museum thank you to all the work you do hard working employees like all of you will always be needed.
You guys massively upgraded the production on these videos. Keep it up. Love this series. 👍
Good video , love seeing all the items weve got in the collection very cool
To Jonathan, just wanted to say every week I look forward to a new video since you started this series. The weapons and history are always fascinating and you do a stupendous job showcasing the content and explaining everything. You have a lot of obvious experience and knowledge yet deliver it in such a relaxing laid back way.
Anyway congrats on the UA-cam play button and keep up the good work! Looking forward to seeing more videos in the future :)
I'd love to see more of these comparisons of small details between variants. It's very hard finding these being done in good quality and properly researched. More please!
It's such a joy to hear Johnathan talk about something he clearly enjoys
Congratulations for the silver play button, carry on
Johnathan is the man. This video is giving off a real good "forgotten weapons" vibe. These sub guns are simple but actually rather interesting.
For some reason I got really hooked on this video. While my interest in firearms has been purely related to gaming, this for some reason really spoke to me. The way you (Mr. Ferguson) talk about the gun and the amount of info you have to talk about, it really got me hooked. You are such a good teacher and you seem like a really good guy. Thanks for all the lessons about firearms, and thank you for giving us the time!
I'm so glad the ThemTube recommendation algorithm worked properly for once by suggesting this channel to me. It's a great compliment to my diet of C&RSenal and Forgotten Weapons. I appreciate the work in bringing us these videos Johnathan.
I’m almost certain Jonathan quite frankly has one of the best jobs in the world.
Only came across this channel because of the Gamespot bit. Have very little experience with firearms, but the history of it all intrigues me. Thank you Jon. If I ever find myself in the UK, I'll be visiting.
Excellent presentation as always. Seige of Jadotville is a film that recounts the assassination of Patrice Lumumba and the ensuing conflict between Katangian rebels and Irish UN peacekeepers. I’ll have to re watch it to look for this weapon. Plenty of period weapons in the film including Enfields, FAL’s, Brens etc.
The vigneron m2 is present in the movie but i've only spotted 1 for a few seconds
I love when a person has this level of detailed knowledge about anything. Humans are cool.
Would to love to see the Enfield collection you have in your keeping.Met a Yank who was a friend of the founder in the nighties and was refused permission because I was not a bonifide academic .
glad to see more information on these guns, they are not very common on youtube.
Found you on Gamespot and followed you here, subscribed to both, excellent channels.
Belgian Colonial railways also used them for train crew protection I think. I saw some photos years ago.
The grape grower SMG, curious name
Jonathan, can you please do a video on the croation sokac. Very little info is available. Bunch of kits came into the usa and no one is even sure what magazine it uses. They shipped with vigeron mags which are too thick (so maybe mp40 mags would work). Yugoslavia have lots of surplus german guns made sense. But they also had madsens and those do fit, but I never tried them function wise.
Thx for the video. All the best in the new year! That being said, the camera angle could be much better, especially when you say spot the difference and all we can see is the bottom of the guns.
Thank you for your cultivated English. For the weapons you are a real showman, a great one. Would you have Mauser C96 in the collection to make a presentation?
It’s great to see that I not only have a new series to watch on YT but that Jonathan has regained his sanity from those abominations of Vanguard. Good to know the service STG did its job perfectly.
Awesome Video!
Had my graduation at royal armouries yesterday wish i’d had time to look around properly
"from the muzzle to the butt is probably the best way to go" wink
Jonathan going for the same lame jokes as garand thumb is a nice hidden gem
I was always pretty indifferent about owning a gun of any kind, mostly just put off by the price tag, but between Jon and Ian, they made me want to own an obscure or interesting piece. Sadly, being interesting also means being even more expensive. :C
Not always!
Some of the more common surplus items can be interesting in their own right
Get out there and buy something that strikes your fancy 🙂
You have what I think is the best job in the world 👍
4:25 Flannel Daddy's ears perked up for a sec
ABL = Armee Belge / Belgisch Leger (Leger being Dutch for army. Not pronounced léger (French), but rather "lehger" with a hard g.
I normally do a little better on my pronunciations, simply by using Google Translate and repeating it back a few times. I failed to do it this time though :)
@@jonathanferguson1211 Mr Ferguson, thank you for replying. But please know that I respect your knowledge tremendously and I didn’t want to come over like a “know it all”. As soon as the whole covid- thing is over and Brexit will allow me, I’ll come visit your fabulous museum. Please keep on making videos, also for Gamespot, they are my favourite on youtube.
From a firearms instructor, thank you sir.
(Also a question: are all the firearms in the collection operational or have they been demilitarized? Thank you.)
@@Smintjes Oh not at all! I welcome feedback. Especially pronunciation. We Anglophone types are notorious for failing to engage with languages :)
Jonathan, I've read your article from some time ago about Martini Henry rifle modified into a grenade launcher. You mentioned you'd found it laying around in a storage or something. Odd they'd had a grenade launcher during WW1. Any chance you'll make a video on that piece?
I would have already, but it's on public display. It was in a storage room off the main firearms store - not lost or anything, just no-one had looked at it in about a decade. Fascinating thing.
@@madisntit6547 That's right. Ahead of its time in concept, possibly not in execution..
Grenade launchers are not that much of an odd thing for WW1.
A large number of SMLE type rifles were modified for the purpose.
They are made distinctive not only by the grenade launching 'cup' at the business end, but also the wire wrapped around part of the forestock in order to hold it together due to the greater pressures exerted when launching a grenade.
Pretty sure that 'Forgotten Weapons' did a video on one at some point.
So not surprising that there was a Martini Henry version of the same thing, as that would potentially free up a current service rifle for its intended purpose.
It would be interesting to know if the MH was a trial to see if/how it would work, if it was intended to reconfigure a large number so that SMLEs would not have to be, or something else.
My dad used to use these in his time in the Belgian Army. Used together with the FN FAL.
"Upgraded the Sten."
Hersey, I say. The Mk2 was flawless in every way, and I will not hear slander against it.
Would be awesome if you made a video about the portuguese fbp smg (m/948)
I shot the Vigneron and had one for a few weeks in company with my FAL . At 25 m using the weapon while standing and with three shots short bursts , the first bullet on the human silhouette hits in the lower belly , the second in the navel region, and the third would hit in the middle torso .
The redundancy of the fire selector is quite surprising to me, never heard of a gun made like that.
When I did my military service ( 1986/87) as a truck driver, the vigneron was my service weapon, you’re more likely to hit something if you take it apart and trow the pieces…. A perfect weapon for a stormtrooper, at 3feet, impossible to hit the broad side of a barn….
There was a small batch of M2s that came into the US as parts kits a number of years ago. I bought one because it was stupidly cheap at the time ($50), and it's been sitting in my closet gathering dust ever since, because I haven't found the time or energy to build a receiver tube for it. Odd little things. Strongly reminiscent of the Type Universal and at a distance it vaguely resembles the Portuguese FBP. Guns from that era really have the most interesting design language.
These things look like like a perfect base for a Star Wars blaster design. Maybe it's the finned barrel or the way the action hangs back so far over the grip.
The armouries should so do a parallel series about medieval and ancient weapons in videogames. I'd binge that 😎👍
Excellent
It looks like a cross between an MP-40 and the M3 "Greae gun". The mid-section and magazine are very MP-40-ish, the rear and especially the wire stock are very reminiscent of the Grease gun, but the barrel is clearly it's own thing, although the cooling fins remind me of the very early Thompson guns (which you mention just as I was writing this). And then it even has a slight bit of MAS-38 thrown it with the stock sloping at an angle instead of being in-line with the barrel. Quite a cool little smg design.
Glad that Vanguard didn't gave him heart attack
Your a lucky bloke cobber, damn fine job you do from an old weapons curator.
Great video about the Vigneron, first I have seen on You Tube.
AB Armée Belge
BL Belgisch Leger
Those weapons are so rare that even in belgian barracks you are more likely to find a captured AK than a Vigneron. And I've visited quite a few barracks !
Come for Jonathon, stay for Jonathon
I remember something about the lower receiver being held in place by the endcap, wich had no locking catch, so if the endcap would work itself somewhat lose, the lower receiver could come off, and there would be nothing holding the cocked bolt back, so you could end up with a runaway machine gun...
Jonathan goes tip to butt. He's a Garand Thumb fan.
Is it just me, or the magazine axis on the one that's closer to us is slightly off the axis of the pistol grip? Or is this an effect of putting an MP-40 magazine, does it hold so loose there that it can even visibly go off-axis?
Uh oh, American Jonathan (ian) is putting some pressure on OG Jonathan. This is more intense than the Cold War
Surely you meant the MkV Sten before Gucci sterling?
I suspect one of the few movies this SMG has appeared in (authentically) is the Siege of Jadotville, a depiction of a Congo Crisis encounter between Katangans and their Belgian-supplied mercenary allies against the Irish Army in UNOC service. Interestingly, one of the prominent characters on the rebel side of the 60s Congo Crises was also Irish: "Mad" Mike Hoare.
"muzzle to butt" or as the man Garand Thumb says: "Tip to Butt"
Did RA get a new camera?
Yup!
Thank you for bringing up the crimes of Belgium in the Congo. Not enough people know just how horrible Belgium treated the people of the Congo. The Belgium military would remove the hands of workers who failed to harvest enough rubber. It’s a horrible bit of history, but it’s important that we reflect on it and never forget the horrors of colonialism.
I would also add that Belgium was directly involved in events around the killing of Lumumba (who was the Prime Minister, not President).
It was Belgian mercenaries employed by the Katangese (under Tshombe), who were working closely with Belgium, who executed him after the coup and a Belgian officer led the disposal of his corpse.
I know this channel is not about history beyond the firearms, but the comment in it that Belgium had withdrawn and some of these were left behind is quite wrong as Belgium was still heavily involved in their former colony after independence and with the specific events referenced.
Jonathan, why is it the FN FAL barrel gas piston looks a bit like the ak 5 barrel gas piston
Nice. Maybe you can change the camera angle to overview so the audience can see how the gun looks like
A good 60's era secret agent movie sub gun.
used one during my national service in 1980, a very good weapon , for such a simple design , you had to grip it by putting your hand over the magazine and gun itself , on full auto the magazine would tend to fall out, also after cleaning you could put the barrel back on the gun with the front sight facing down , that made you look rather silly!
I remember taking one home with me over the weekend to show to my friends , imagine that today !!!!
It reminds me of the MAS submachinegun
I’m getting grease gun design from this weapon (with an extended barrel naturally) … Perhaps just my eyes 😅
Herstal? Isn't there some FN connection there too? Or was that just from the city where Fabrique National was seated?
Why are there no price lists and order forms?
I agree that it's a bit surprising to see barrels that long on a 9mm submachine gun. While it probably doesn't diminish their utility much, it also doesn't add much. Considering that the 9mm cartridge was designed and optimized for use in a pistol, there's a point of diminishing returns with barrel length. There are gains in velocity all the way out to an 18" barrel but after 10" they are minimal. I wonder what the logic was in making the barrel that long?
As a rookie with the technicalities of firearms I have two questions:
Was/is there a form versus functionality argument? IOW do some changes simply make a weapon look different but have the same innards?
In IT software design there is a 'Good Enough' standard.. the software is 'good enough' for the customer to use / pay for it. Do firearms have a similar standard? So the weapon obeys the basic criteria but the design in tinkered with after it's been put into service.
A cool angle would be top down of guns if you are doing comparing.
Would make it easier for Jon also, maybe not so for the video editors..:'D
Used in Congo by mercenaries. seen videos of it from the documentary Africa Addio. amazing documentary
The front sight protector on the M2 is not "Just clipped on" . I have an M2 but I also have an M1. My M1 was upgraded to M2 standard but I had the idea to convert it back to M1 standard. I thought removing the protector would be easy.... bend back the lugs and it will slip off.
Not so, with the lugs going into the compensator bent clear, and the protector ready to be slipped off I found it was held by three spot welds, One on either side and one below. I did eventually get the protector off, but in doing so almost destroyed it. As the spot welds broke, lumps where pulled out of the barrel and the protector had lumps left behind still welded to the barrel.
I have since decided to straughten and repair the protector and to refit it it. With just the lugs bent back into the selector it wobbled all over the place and I had to remake the spot welds before it was firm.
I would have though mentioning the compensator (similar to Thompson Coutts) compensator would have been worth more of a mention when comparing to the Thompson barrel?
Are the guns in the royal armouries live or deactivated?
Now Jonathan, i need to know the answer to a very important question...where do you get your jackets from?
I wonder if he would do the weapons in Mafia III? 🤷🏽♂️💯 it'd be pretty neat
Gives some serious pp91 vibes.