These are still making my Wednesdays so much better! The Vickers-Berthier was in the running to replace my favourite of all LMGs, the Chauchat, in France but they went with the MAC 24/29 instead!
My father preferred the Lewis to the Bren ! Then again he fired ten thousand rounds from a Lewis ! Non in anger! Only time he used Bren was to finish off escaping German on the side of the mountain at Monty Casino March 1944 ! Had to take command of Bren as Bren gunner did not want to see said German! My farther had put down at 300yrds with Thompson ! Needed to stop guy getting back with intel of situation further down the hill / mountain ! Monty Casino hell hole !!only three ?
@@peteroneill5426 I admit it looks cool. The GBI Crime Lab in Augusta, Georgia used to have one on display. I'm not sure of the entire backstory but I think it was brought home by a Veteran many years ago, and never registered.
Indian army is extremely interesting. They actually adopted white powder before mainland Britain. Ishapore actually was more automated compared to British factories, which resulted in better guns being produced than British made ones.
Basic rule in the British Empire following the 2nd Boer War, where Canadians were sufficiently irritated with the lack of British-made weapons to arm their loyal contingents to insist on arming themselves and damn Parliament on the matter, is that so long as an Imperial military unit uses a British-adopted ammunition, they really can make or use what they want. Australia and India, for example, declined to use the No.4 rifle as they had arsenals making plenty of SMLE rifles. Now, any time a Indian unit spent a lot of time far from home with mostly British troops, like in North Africa, then it was often easier to get British-made guns to replace lost equipment, so Indians would end up with a lot of Brens and No.4 rifles after a couple of years. But the opposite went for British troops fighting with Indians far from Britain, with many Brits ending up with Berthiers when their Brens broke or SMLEs when their No.4s were lost because Indian suppliers were closer.
I didn't matter who made or designed arms that the Indian arm used. What matted was is that the Indian army were the only army that could take the war to the Germans and the Italians and be successful. Without the Indian army the UK had no military force that could combat the Japanese, Germany, Italians alliance..
@@michaelmayo3127 surprisingly GDP of British India was Bigger than Japan,Italy and France so Geographically, economically and militarily India was Very important
Thanks Jonathan, that is an interesting specimen. PS - I really enjoyed looking over the Royal Armouries historic artillery collection at Fort Nelson near Portsmouth yesterday. For anyone who is really interested in large guns, it is well worth a visit. I was pleased to see many famous classic guns there, not least a French 75mm field gun, but also many really old cannons and parts of Iraqi superguns .
DerekP, i agree with you, i went in October 2019. Good place to have a look round. My mind sticks to the heavy armour plate, full of different ap shell damage.
I recall seeing a comparison video between the American BAR and the British Bren. And, the comparison was done by an American. The result? The Bren won HANDS down. When I was in High School Army Cadets at Riverdale Collegiate in Toronto, we went to a military range at Winona, near St. Catherines. I had the rare opportunity to fire the Bren. Beautiful firearm.
Fifty Point Range? I was there decades ago with the 48th. Miserable heavy grey overcast day, morphing into fog. Couldn't see the butts about half way through the day. Senior NCO's and Officers have a conflab. Everyone back to the 700m firing mound. One of the Sergeants starts firing, high so the rounds will clear the butts and go out into the lake. He was firing tracers as a demonstration for us.
What did get adopted was the Vickers Gas Operated (aka Vickers K) which was a VB as an aircraft gun. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_K_machine_gun. The SAS used them for many years post-WW2 as their vehicle gun
The British have rarely been concerned about a gun's origin. Just its performance. The one time politicians insisted the Army bought British they got the SA80. So that went well.
I would love to see you do more Collabs with Irange TV, TFB, MAC, and firearms solutions. You do amazing work showing people that firearms aren't exactly what they seem.
Jonathan, tell Rouyl Armories that you need a a wireless microphone to make audio better. Bur now your audio is better so I am kinda late so you apparently have one. Audio is better than before, 324% better. Greetings from Finland!
I am new to this channel, came across this video by accident... What an interesting and informative video, brilliant. I used the old Bren way back in the day and although I vaguely recall hearing about the Vickers Berthier until now I've never actually seen one.. Having read some of the comments by regular subscribers and viewers I've now subscribed to the channel and am busy looking through your back catalogue... Thank you..
Very interesting, thanks. Vickers had some commercial sales of the VB, .303 examples to Portugal and I think also to one of the Baltic States. If memory serves some were sold to Latin America and used in the Chaco War. I suspect all these export guns strongly resembled the early version submitted to the British trials, but I am not certain of that.
Would be interesting to examine the records for opinions of the Indian Army on the gun. It must have been used in some very adverse conditions, Burma, North Africa? Another fascinating peek into the world of firearms development.
Another very informative video on a very important historic firearm. Always look forward to these videos coming out. Also, thank god they fixed the intro/outro volume.
Some gun designs may actually be better then the ones that are eventually adopted. But militaries will adopt something that’s almost as good, because it’s easier, or cheaper to manufacture, or fewer over all parts.
It rather depends on your definition of 'better'. As an example, you need 10,000 light machine guns. You prefer model A because it's lighter and more accurate. However you can only afford 6,000. Model B, which you can afford 10,000 of, is heavier, and a little less accurate. I would argue that in that case model B could be better, because it actually fulfills your requirement.
The British Indian Army was veey keen to replace the Lewis Gun. Many of its trouble spots, ie. the North-West Frontier, were arid and dusty and the Lewis Gun had reliability issues.
deep impact had better vfx, but the movie was soooo boring..armageddon was too, but it had likeable characters, in DI you wanted everyone to die already lol
Always great Mr. Ferguson! Would love to see any larger peices the Royal Armories have, cannon and such, although that would require an on site production.
Having used both weapons, I an convinced that the Bren (later LMG) is by far and away the better, more reliable, easier to take apart and clean, but perhaps almost TOO accurate.
@@michaelwong4303 obviously, as any machine-gunner will tell you, it depends entirely upon what your require, but twitching about all over the place isn't overly accurately, it gives your position away, and with the recoil of a Bren, not particularly efficient. You really must try it for yourself.
Jonathan you mentioned convergent design at one point. Isn't background / ethos also a factor? For example RJ Mitchell and Sidney Camm responded to the same RAF requirement but came up with the Spitfire - as Mitchell's pedigree was in performance aircraft - and the Hurricane as Camm had worked for Jack Sopwith so his background was in designing fighter aircraft.
Was there a reason inferred behind the accuracy difference? Rifling, barrel manufacture, etc? The rounds had to be of the same quality/manufacture for comparison...
Thank you for covering this Vickers Berthier Light machine gun history, only recall reading about it in John Master's , Bugles and Tiger, during the fighting on the iblanke .Was it used in the fighting at Sidi Barrani or Keren ?
The LS 26/is also said to have been very accurate. I wonder how it would fare against the bren in that sense. (Reliability and ease of maintenance would likely be quite a bit better for bren tho)
That's not an accident. The Vickers-Berthier was competing in the French LMG trials. The French then declared none of submitted designs would be adopted and made their own LMG taking bits and pieces they liked from the other designs. That's the origin story of the FM 24/29.
The Swedish army is about to replace the AK5C but has yet to decide on a replacement. With that in mind, could we get a video on the AK5 family, its origin, why they changed it into the original AK5 pattern from the FNC and why they modified it into the AK5 B, C and D variant, and how it has performed in service.
Actually if you analyse what he says in detail, what he says is it's foolish to compare the two as they were made for radically different tactics and purposes.
Interesting that it has long bipod legs, similar to those on the Chauchat. They look too long. IIRC the Madsen had bipod legs of a similar length. Seems to have been a thing with some earlyish LMG.
It is Never a coincidence when 2 Hollyweird movies come out about the same thing . The Hollyweird studios are famous for their corporate espionage that they commit against each other . It is a well known fact here in the states .
Great informative video…..but, it’s so dark in the foreground you can’t see any detail on the gun. Also if you were to wear lighter colours it would help when you hold it in front of your chest, at times you could barely make out the shape of the weapon against your dark shirt and jacket .
Jonathan, was it possible to make a mountable belt feed mechanism for Bren and DP-28(original one, RP-46 is different gun in many regards and as far as I know there is no way to convert it back to using pans in the field) akin to how it was done in DShK?
This MG is better, it did better performance then bren, but we know for ''war'' quicker, cheaper producing they dont always aquire the best, they aquire something which can be made fast and is quite balanced, not speaking about ''Sten'' at all... :]
Would that lack of accuracy be a disadvantage in combat ? I think you'll all know where I'm going, but the accuracy of the Bren has been criticized as being too accurate for supressive fire.
And that claim has been debunked time and time again, but it keeps coming back. I'd suggest the video "Four Annoying Gun Myths" from Forgotten Weapons and Bloke on the Range on that topic.
What's the monstrocity on the background? Did Vickers compromise its interwar tank MG development by not only throwing a lot of money on crazy watercooling, but also on a LMG with gigantic barrel?
Shooting from the hip was to be discouraged.......Unless of course the shooter was awarded the VC as seems to have happened more than once with the Bren.
Whats a pound between friends? About 10 pound at end of a days march. Ive carried and used a Bren. Same with L2A2, TBH a shite LMG. But I got the L2A2 more often if I could. That extra weight adds up at end of a day or a 3, 5, 7 or 14 day excercises
That one pound may suck on the march. But it is a small price to pay compared to having your machinegun break when there are Nazis about. The LMG versions of the FAL were simply bad ideas. They kind of ran into the same problems as the M1918A2 BAR did. They are too close to a rifle to be a good LMG, but too bulky to be a good rifle. Canada and Australia would have been much better served with 7.62mm Brens instead. Occasionally the Brits do get something right.
I'm curious about the odd barrel on the gun in the back. Is that a heavier barrel to try and increase cooling? It looks like it has a large enough circumference that it could be a variant that used a Lewis gun style shroud for forced cooling as well. I can't seem to find any information about it online sadly, or any pictures for that matter
As far as I am aware Monsieur Berthier had nothing to do with the Vickers company. He designed a series of LMGs from 1910 culminating in the Modele 1922. After the French rejected it, Vickers bought the rights to the Modele 1922 and developed it into the Vickers-Berthier.
I don't understand why gas light machine guns such as Bren that are highly accurate have not been adapted as bullpup's? Would they be too hard to convert.
Interesting that grouping was an issue in the trials. Having shot the bren gun [as the LMG in the late 70s] it was VERY accurate. But in some respects that's a double edged sword, there's no point putting three rounds into the same body. You would have thought a wider beaten zone on full auto, within reason, would actually have been a winner. Especially if the single round/double tap accuracy was - as mentioned - very similar.
@@jonprince3237 I am not sure. I read about something described as a Land-Pattern Vickers G.O, as opposed to an Air Pattern Vickers G.O, being used in efforts to secure (seawards) access to Antwerp. Both of those weapons were developments of the VB, but as Jonathan indicates, Vickers went through more than one model in a fairly short time. The article I read ( a few years ago) did not have any pictures, which are often the only way you can tell the difference between two different things and two different names for the same thing. One thing I did see pictures of, looked like a VB in something the size of .5" Vickers being demonstrated by a man in a business suit! I have no idea if that was anything more than a marketing mockup: I have never, ever seen any written reference to anything that could have been the gun in that photograph. Having once worked for Lucas Industries, it strikes me as possible that a company the size of Vickers might have built things that even people in the company didn't know existed.
@@matthewspencer5086in that case, yes, the "land pattern" was the Vickers G.O. No.2 which was an adaption of the No.1 air service version by adding a bipod, pistol grip and shoulder stock for use as a ground based LMG, but retaining the same drum magazine and absurd rate of fire as the No.1 gun. It was used by some Commando units of D-Day and Walcheren to replace the Vickers MMGs of Support Troops. Apparently there's only 1 complete original example of the No.2 gun in existence, which I think is in the Liberation museum Zeeland. Having seen the VB and GO guns disassembled together, they are indeed clearly and strikingly similar, though I don't know to what extent parts were actually interchangeable
@@jonprince3237 Thank you. It's nice to know what people were talking about! I had in my mind the idea that it was some sort of "answer" to the MG42. I have found the photograph of the "big VB" and there is now a caption speculating that it's chambered in 13.2mm Hotchkiss, which is even heftier than 0.5" Vickers: www.quarryhs.co.uk/Vickers.html You have to scroll down past the 0.5" and 1" Vickers stuff and it's on the right. I might speculate that (on that mounting) it was intended to poke holes in surfaced U-boats. I can't see it being a useful AA gun with that mount and that magazine. Anyway, it would be nice to see Jonathan develop the muscles necessary to hold _that_ out to the camera!
I've heard that the Bren gun was used by some British sharpshooters (not sure if that's the right term) in WW2 because of its high accuracy. I can't find any sources for this however and wondered if that can be true? Love your videos!
I think at that point sharpshooter and sniper were still different things in the British army so it might have been a case of machinegunners that scored as sharpshooters in their training rifle qualifications
Always wondered why the Indian army chose the vickers berthier over the bren, was it price, different Set of officers coming to a different conclusion ,easier to manufacture in india ,or the vickers company giving "incentives " to the right people ? Lol
I belive it was impatience. The Indian army felt they needed it now before the home army had finished the tests and picked one of the two front runners.
It would be much better if you sat behind the table with the item under discussion in front of you and in direct view of the camera allowing us to see more of it rather than white-gloved hands.
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 no, there was a vickers section weapon introduce sometime between the interwar years. and it was a light design than the lewis gun. I think in was covered by Firepower Magazine during the 1990's
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 i think this was it, but for some reason I was under the impression it was a vickers www.historicalfirearms.info/post/111317574457/beardmore-farquhar-light-machine-gun
@@paulbatterbury1886 The article you linked to does state 'none of the British service arms adopted the weapon later adopting the Bren instead' so sorry, no coconut.
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 Yes i know, but for a short while it was considered and trailed. The book I read was more than 20 years ago. and I think I somehow mix this with the Vickers K series. Personally I loved using the Bren, one of my favourite weapons.
Instead of suggesting which British MG is better, I'd suggest simply throw a SMG-shaped hand grenade called Sten and capture a German MG42. That'll solve your WWII MG problem.
Would like to hear your thoughts on the Czech ZB 26 LMG.
That’s what they came together for the Bren !
Thank you
My dad didn’t like the only time he use !??
It's literally the Original Been Gun.
These are still making my Wednesdays so much better! The Vickers-Berthier was in the running to replace my favourite of all LMGs, the Chauchat, in France but they went with the MAC 24/29 instead!
Well, to some extent the MAC 24/29 is more or less an unlicensed copy of the bits of the Vickers-Berthier they liked... :)
No offense but they needed to replace your favorite LMG...
My father preferred the Lewis to the Bren ! Then again he fired ten thousand rounds from a Lewis ! Non in anger! Only time he used Bren was to finish off escaping German on the side of the mountain at Monty Casino March 1944 ! Had to take command of Bren as Bren gunner did not want to see said German! My farther had put down at 300yrds with Thompson ! Needed to stop guy getting back with intel of situation further down the hill / mountain ! Monty Casino hell hole !!only three ?
@@JohnDoe-pv2iu Yeah, it's my favourite, by no means the best.
@@peteroneill5426 I admit it looks cool. The GBI Crime Lab in Augusta, Georgia used to have one on display. I'm not sure of the entire backstory but I think it was brought home by a Veteran many years ago, and never registered.
love learning about these old guns
I had no idea the Indian armed forces took a different LMG than us other commonwealth countries...the more you know!
Indian army is extremely interesting. They actually adopted white powder before mainland Britain. Ishapore actually was more automated compared to British factories, which resulted in better guns being produced than British made ones.
Basic rule in the British Empire following the 2nd Boer War, where Canadians were sufficiently irritated with the lack of British-made weapons to arm their loyal contingents to insist on arming themselves and damn Parliament on the matter, is that so long as an Imperial military unit uses a British-adopted ammunition, they really can make or use what they want. Australia and India, for example, declined to use the No.4 rifle as they had arsenals making plenty of SMLE rifles. Now, any time a Indian unit spent a lot of time far from home with mostly British troops, like in North Africa, then it was often easier to get British-made guns to replace lost equipment, so Indians would end up with a lot of Brens and No.4 rifles after a couple of years. But the opposite went for British troops fighting with Indians far from Britain, with many Brits ending up with Berthiers when their Brens broke or SMLEs when their No.4s were lost because Indian suppliers were closer.
I didn't matter who made or designed arms that the Indian arm used. What matted was is that the Indian army were the only army that could take the war to the Germans and the Italians and be successful. Without the Indian army the UK had no military force that could combat the Japanese, Germany, Italians alliance..
@@michaelmayo3127 surprisingly GDP of British India was Bigger than Japan,Italy and France
so Geographically, economically and militarily India was Very important
@@Kreatorisbackyt India was the cash cow tobe milked be the UK's elite until it could no more.
Jonathan YOU are better than the bren gun
Edit: That, is a terrible compliment. But you deserve all the compliments
I wonder, are collegues now calling Jonathan 'The Last Action Hero' or something like that? :D
The Lewis was cool WW1
@@entertrashmans2519 hay the only time my father fired a Bren was at point 202 !! Monti Casino! Ten K rounds through Lewis
@@entertrashmans2519 after that only had a No 4 T for a while
@@entertrashmans2519 one of he got to inspect only two land rifling !?, it #4T for reason!
Your videos never get old, keep it up chap
Ishapore made this (Mk 3A and Mk 3B variants) until 1942, after which they shifted to Bren.
Thanks Jonathan, that is an interesting specimen.
PS - I really enjoyed looking over the Royal Armouries historic artillery collection at Fort Nelson near Portsmouth yesterday. For anyone who is really interested in large guns, it is well worth a visit. I was pleased to see many famous classic guns there, not least a French 75mm field gun, but also many really old cannons and parts of Iraqi superguns .
DerekP, i agree with you, i went in October 2019. Good place to have a look round. My mind sticks to the heavy armour plate, full of different ap shell damage.
@@blueband8114 I also liked that exhibit.
Not been in a good few years but well worth a visit if you like big guns that go BOOM.
So many Victoria Cross citations start with “He picked up a Bren Gun”, it’s like a WW2 cheat code
Charles Upham made it work.
Bren Gun OP, pliz nurf!
I sometimes feel like this comment is made by a bot. I mean, can you at least change it a bit if you post someone elses comment for likes?:(
I carried one during my service in Malaya. Lovely gun.
Hi Lindy
I recall seeing a comparison video between the American BAR and the British Bren. And, the comparison was done by an American. The result? The Bren won HANDS down. When I was in High School Army Cadets at Riverdale Collegiate in Toronto, we went to a military range at Winona, near St. Catherines. I had the rare opportunity to fire the Bren. Beautiful firearm.
Fifty Point Range?
I was there decades ago with the 48th. Miserable heavy grey overcast day, morphing into fog.
Couldn't see the butts about half way through the day.
Senior NCO's and Officers have a conflab.
Everyone back to the 700m firing mound.
One of the Sergeants starts firing, high so the rounds will clear the butts and go out into the lake.
He was firing tracers as a demonstration for us.
Hi Jonathan, how about the BESA MG and the story behind how we adopted a 7.92 Mauser round whilst retaining 303......
I hope these videos never stop
What did get adopted was the Vickers Gas Operated (aka Vickers K) which was a VB as an aircraft gun. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_K_machine_gun. The SAS used them for many years post-WW2 as their vehicle gun
"We need british gun for whole commonwealth."
Some random czech Chad: "Hold my slivovice".
Ist up CZ 24
Czad
The British have rarely been concerned about a gun's origin. Just its performance.
The one time politicians insisted the Army bought British they got the SA80. So that went well.
I would love to see you do more Collabs with Irange TV, TFB, MAC, and firearms solutions. You do amazing work showing people that firearms aren't exactly what they seem.
Jonathan, tell Rouyl Armories that you need a a wireless microphone to make audio better.
Bur now your audio is better so I am kinda late so you apparently have one.
Audio is better than before,
324% better. Greetings from Finland!
Does anyone remember the scene in lock, stock and 3 smoking barrels where the woman unloads the magazine of a bren gun?
Before that the man who brings the bren gun fires it and everyone shouts at him he says, “ its me bren gun!” 😂
Sweet movie!
That empty .303 brass hitting the carpet in slow motion...
I am new to this channel, came across this video by accident... What an interesting and informative video, brilliant. I used the old Bren way back in the day and although I vaguely recall hearing about the Vickers Berthier until now I've never actually seen one.. Having read some of the comments by regular subscribers and viewers I've now subscribed to the channel and am busy looking through your back catalogue... Thank you..
I like the Bren Gin in 303, very well made easy to use very controllable under Automatic fire.
Very interesting, thanks. Vickers had some commercial sales of the VB, .303 examples to Portugal and I think also to one of the Baltic States. If memory serves some were sold to Latin America and used in the Chaco War. I suspect all these export guns strongly resembled the early version submitted to the British trials, but I am not certain of that.
Would be interesting to examine the records for opinions of the Indian Army on the gun. It must have been used in some very adverse conditions, Burma, North Africa? Another fascinating peek into the world of firearms development.
Another very informative video on a very important historic firearm. Always look forward to these videos coming out.
Also, thank god they fixed the intro/outro volume.
Some gun designs may actually be better then the ones that are eventually adopted. But militaries will adopt something that’s almost as good, because it’s easier, or cheaper to manufacture, or fewer over all parts.
It rather depends on your definition of 'better'. As an example, you need 10,000 light machine guns. You prefer model A because it's lighter and more accurate. However you can only afford 6,000. Model B, which you can afford 10,000 of, is heavier, and a little less accurate. I would argue that in that case model B could be better, because it actually fulfills your requirement.
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 Yup, spot on example. 👍
@@charlesoppland7778 Thanks :-)
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 Which goes with the old infantry saying of :Your gun was made by the lowest bidder".
The British Indian Army was veey keen to replace the Lewis Gun.
Many of its trouble spots, ie. the North-West Frontier, were arid and dusty and the Lewis Gun had reliability issues.
Gotta respect him shouting out Jesus over at forgotten weapons. Yous should deff colab
Ahh so the Bren gun was Armageddon and this was Deep Impact.
deep impact had better vfx, but the movie was soooo boring..armageddon was too, but it had likeable characters, in DI you wanted everyone to die already lol
You and Ian need to make a video together, my favourite gun nerds needing about. Do a gun podcast! Yeah, that'd be nice
Would love to see a video on your top 10 guns of all time (or in your collection) I could watch you chat about guns all day
Always great Mr. Ferguson! Would love to see any larger peices the Royal Armories have, cannon and such, although that would require an on site production.
Something like the Tank Museum does?
Having used both weapons, I an convinced that the Bren (later LMG) is by far and away the better, more reliable, easier to take apart and clean, but perhaps almost TOO accurate.
Yes it would have been if it sprayed about when fired
I had a discussion with someone else about accuracy of an automatic gun: why not just slightly move the gun around then you can cover a bigger area?
@@michaelwong4303 we did!
@@dafyddmanton2981 so being "accurate" is not a problem then.....
@@michaelwong4303 obviously, as any machine-gunner will tell you, it depends entirely upon what your require, but twitching about all over the place isn't overly accurately, it gives your position away, and with the recoil of a Bren, not particularly efficient. You really must try it for yourself.
Left unsaid is the answer to the question, "Why was the V-B so much less accurate than the Bren?"
It love to see the rather interesting Vickers-K made famous by the Long Range Desert Patrol.
So we've heard what was worse than the Bren, but aside from compact portability was there anything else noted as preferable about the Vickers?
How is that gun so old it looks flawless... and very capable...!...
It was one of the trials weapons, so after the trial it probably spent a fair while gathering dust in the corner of some armoury somewhere.
Jonathan you mentioned convergent design at one point. Isn't background / ethos also a factor? For example RJ Mitchell and Sidney Camm responded to the same RAF requirement but came up with the Spitfire - as Mitchell's pedigree was in performance aircraft - and the Hurricane as Camm had worked for Jack Sopwith so his background was in designing fighter aircraft.
Oh hype! Cheers
@ Jonathan, Try waring lighter clothing when demoing close to your body. It will increase contrast.
Was there a reason inferred behind the accuracy difference? Rifling, barrel manufacture, etc? The rounds had to be of the same quality/manufacture for comparison...
Would love to see a video/series of videos on the US adoption of the AR15/M16/M4 rifles.
"What's a pound between friends?"
Hahaha
glad I wasn't the only one to have a snort-laugh at that
I, too, suffer from a sick, childish humour.
1:04 "this is in fact, a gun" - Jonathan
Phew ! I am glad we made the right choice then !!
Thank you for covering this Vickers Berthier Light machine gun history, only recall reading about it in John Master's , Bugles and Tiger, during the fighting on the iblanke .Was it used in the fighting at Sidi Barrani or Keren ?
Yes to both.
The LS 26/is also said to have been very accurate. I wonder how it would fare against the bren in that sense. (Reliability and ease of maintenance would likely be quite a bit better for bren tho)
The forestock looks very similar to that of the French FM 24/29 LMG of WWII.
That's not an accident. The Vickers-Berthier was competing in the French LMG trials. The French then declared none of submitted designs would be adopted and made their own LMG taking bits and pieces they liked from the other designs. That's the origin story of the FM 24/29.
The Swedish army is about to replace the AK5C but has yet to decide on a replacement. With that in mind, could we get a video on the AK5 family, its origin, why they changed it into the original AK5 pattern from the FNC and why they modified it into the AK5 B, C and D variant, and how it has performed in service.
I wonder which was more time consuming, complicated and expensive to produce - BREN or the Vickers-Berthier?
My understanding is the Bren was more time consuming and expensive to produce than then later makes of Vickers-Berthier.
@@StrangelyBrownNo1 That isn't saying much. Later models of the Bren were also less time consuming and expensive than the Mk.I.
No one ask lindybeige he'll just start ripping on the "spandau"
Actually if you analyse what he says in detail, what he says is it's foolish to compare the two as they were made for radically different tactics and purposes.
@@gordonlawrence1448 I know it was just a joke
Where the Danish "MADSEN" light machingun test too the British trails in the 30s?
We will load it from the top, because putting ammunition between the shooter's eye and the target is always going to enhance accuracy!
One pound may not seem like much in 2021, but one pound in 1929, adjusted for inflation, was more than 50 pounds.
Interesting that it has long bipod legs, similar to those on the Chauchat. They look too long. IIRC the Madsen had bipod legs of a similar length. Seems to have been a thing with some earlyish LMG.
It is Never a coincidence when 2 Hollyweird movies come out about the same thing . The Hollyweird studios are famous for their corporate espionage that they commit against each other . It is a well known fact here in the states .
Great informative video…..but, it’s so dark in the foreground you can’t see any detail on the gun. Also if you were to wear lighter colours it would help when you hold it in front of your chest, at times you could barely make out the shape of the weapon against your dark shirt and jacket .
For your information it looks that way only on your screen (or anyones whos screen is low contrast or at least the contrast setting too low)
Jonathan, was it possible to make a mountable belt feed mechanism for Bren and DP-28(original one, RP-46 is different gun in many regards and as far as I know there is no way to convert it back to using pans in the field) akin to how it was done in DShK?
No. There is an Armourers Bench video on a Belt Fed Bren which explains the issues that came around when they tried.
This MG is better, it did better performance then bren, but we know for ''war'' quicker, cheaper producing they dont always aquire the best, they aquire something which can be made fast and is quite balanced, not speaking about ''Sten'' at all... :]
I actually prefer the AUG over that gun but it's always fun to use in Battlefield V game and COD WW2 game as well but in the modern COD's the AUG
Would that lack of accuracy be a disadvantage in combat ? I think you'll all know where I'm going, but the accuracy of the Bren has been criticized as being too accurate for supressive fire.
And that claim has been debunked time and time again, but it keeps coming back. I'd suggest the video "Four Annoying Gun Myths" from Forgotten Weapons and Bloke on the Range on that topic.
It's not like it's wildly throwing bullets feet away after every shot so no, it's not a disadvantage.
Very interesting indeed, but did it have a quick-change barrel (as the BrEn did)?
Interesting video.
What's the monstrocity on the background? Did Vickers compromise its interwar tank MG development by not only throwing a lot of money on crazy watercooling, but also on a LMG with gigantic barrel?
What is the similar LMG in the background???
No way, a gun I've never seen before. Looks a bit cooler than the BREN.
Quick change barrels?
Shooting from the hip was to be discouraged.......Unless of course the shooter was awarded the VC as seems to have happened more than once with the Bren.
Or you are politician. Or is that from the lip?
@@foamer443 Sadly in that instance it encourages them.
Whats a pound between friends? About 10 pound at end of a days march. Ive carried and used a Bren. Same with L2A2, TBH a shite LMG. But I got the L2A2 more often if I could. That extra weight adds up at end of a day or a 3, 5, 7 or 14 day excercises
That one pound may suck on the march. But it is a small price to pay compared to having your machinegun break when there are Nazis about.
The LMG versions of the FAL were simply bad ideas. They kind of ran into the same problems as the M1918A2 BAR did. They are too close to a rifle to be a good LMG, but too bulky to be a good rifle.
Canada and Australia would have been much better served with 7.62mm Brens instead. Occasionally the Brits do get something right.
Do you have a Madsen?
I'm curious about the odd barrel on the gun in the back. Is that a heavier barrel to try and increase cooling? It looks like it has a large enough circumference that it could be a variant that used a Lewis gun style shroud for forced cooling as well. I can't seem to find any information about it online sadly, or any pictures for that matter
Question: Was the Berthier whose company was presumably absorbed into Vickers, or maybe worked with them, related to the Napoleonic Marshal Berthier?
As far as I am aware Monsieur Berthier had nothing to do with the Vickers company. He designed a series of LMGs from 1910 culminating in the Modele 1922.
After the French rejected it, Vickers bought the rights to the Modele 1922 and developed it into the Vickers-Berthier.
The cowboys didn't stand a chance when the Indians adopted these.
I don't understand why gas light machine guns such as Bren that are highly accurate have not been adapted as bullpup's? Would they be too hard to convert.
You need some foreground lighting my dude.
Interesting that grouping was an issue in the trials.
Having shot the bren gun [as the LMG in the late 70s] it was VERY accurate.
But in some respects that's a double edged sword, there's no point putting three rounds into the same body.
You would have thought a wider beaten zone on full auto, within reason, would actually have been a winner.
Especially if the single round/double tap accuracy was - as mentioned - very similar.
at the time of watching this video it has 303 likes, i would press the like but i don't want to disturb that number
Does the museum have one of the K versions? Mounted in a pair on a Jeep perhaps?
The Vickers Collection and Machine Gun association just uploaded an in-depth video on a the K and the twin mount.
@@StrangelyBrownNo1 Sweet! I'll go give that a look
What do you think about the Stgw 90 and its different adaptions?
What is that lapel pin Jonathan is wearing?
Does the Indian version differ materially from that adopted by the Royal Marines and used in the Low Countries in 1944?
Not aware of the Royal Marines adopting the VB or it being used in Europe. Are you thinking of the Vickers G.O. No.2 used by some Commando units?
@@jonprince3237 I am not sure. I read about something described as a Land-Pattern Vickers G.O, as opposed to an Air Pattern Vickers G.O, being used in efforts to secure (seawards) access to Antwerp. Both of those weapons were developments of the VB, but as Jonathan indicates, Vickers went through more than one model in a fairly short time. The article I read ( a few years ago) did not have any pictures, which are often the only way you can tell the difference between two different things and two different names for the same thing. One thing I did see pictures of, looked like a VB in something the size of .5" Vickers being demonstrated by a man in a business suit! I have no idea if that was anything more than a marketing mockup: I have never, ever seen any written reference to anything that could have been the gun in that photograph. Having once worked for Lucas Industries, it strikes me as possible that a company the size of Vickers might have built things that even people in the company didn't know existed.
@@matthewspencer5086in that case, yes, the "land pattern" was the Vickers G.O. No.2 which was an adaption of the No.1 air service version by adding a bipod, pistol grip and shoulder stock for use as a ground based LMG, but retaining the same drum magazine and absurd rate of fire as the No.1 gun. It was used by some Commando units of D-Day and Walcheren to replace the Vickers MMGs of Support Troops. Apparently there's only 1 complete original example of the No.2 gun in existence, which I think is in the Liberation museum Zeeland. Having seen the VB and GO guns disassembled together, they are indeed clearly and strikingly similar, though I don't know to what extent parts were actually interchangeable
@@jonprince3237 Thank you. It's nice to know what people were talking about! I had in my mind the idea that it was some sort of "answer" to the MG42. I have found the photograph of the "big VB" and there is now a caption speculating that it's chambered in 13.2mm Hotchkiss, which is even heftier than 0.5" Vickers:
www.quarryhs.co.uk/Vickers.html
You have to scroll down past the 0.5" and 1" Vickers stuff and it's on the right. I might speculate that (on that mounting) it was intended to poke holes in surfaced U-boats. I can't see it being a useful AA gun with that mount and that magazine. Anyway, it would be nice to see Jonathan develop the muscles necessary to hold _that_ out to the camera!
Cool
I've heard that the Bren gun was used by some British sharpshooters (not sure if that's the right term) in WW2 because of its high accuracy. I can't find any sources for this however and wondered if that can be true? Love your videos!
No.
I think at that point sharpshooter and sniper were still different things in the British army so it might have been a case of machinegunners that scored as sharpshooters in their training rifle qualifications
The BREN is only accurate compared to other LMG's not compared to a rifle. No one would choose a BREN over a rifle if they wanted accuracy.
Do you have a Vickers K??
Always wondered why the Indian army chose the vickers berthier over the bren, was it price, different Set of officers coming to a different conclusion ,easier to manufacture in india ,or the vickers company giving "incentives " to the right people ? Lol
I belive it was impatience. The Indian army felt they needed it now before the home army had finished the tests and picked one of the two front runners.
It's really very attractive.
Show the rear site Jonathan!,
Can you do a best bits of various guns and what parts from different ones you would choose if you could make your own?
What's the other Bren gun behind you on the table?
It's not a Bren gun. I think it's another Vickers-Berthier.
You don't hear much about the Hotchkiss Machine Gun. I don't even know if anyone has an original these days.
Where's the bayonet lug?
There once was a machine gun from Vickers...
By firing the bren
It would be much better if you sat behind the table with the item under discussion in front of you and in direct view of the camera allowing us to see more of it rather than white-gloved hands.
Give me that Bren gun
i thought the Bern replace a Vickers Section weapon.
No the Bren replaced the Lewis gun. Vickers Maxims were never a section weapon.
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 no, there was a vickers section weapon introduce sometime between the interwar years. and it was a light design than the lewis gun. I think in was covered by Firepower Magazine during the 1990's
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 i think this was it, but for some reason I was under the impression it was a vickers www.historicalfirearms.info/post/111317574457/beardmore-farquhar-light-machine-gun
@@paulbatterbury1886 The article you linked to does state 'none of the British service arms adopted the weapon later adopting the Bren instead' so sorry, no coconut.
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 Yes i know, but for a short while it was considered and trailed. The book I read was more than 20 years ago. and I think I somehow mix this with the Vickers K series. Personally I loved using the Bren, one of my favourite weapons.
It looks like a madsen
Instead of suggesting which British MG is better, I'd suggest simply throw a SMG-shaped hand grenade called Sten and capture a German MG42. That'll solve your WWII MG problem.
Is that “not” Bren gun or “naught” Bren gun?
What's a pound between friends?
Twenty shillings old chap.
What's with the barrel shroud on the one behind you, Jonathan? It almost looks like a suppressor.
@Yulis Even a bad suppressor is better than no suppressor, killing muzzle flash is a big plus.
Should a machine gun be that Accurate,5 rounds hitting the same point,or 5 rounds hitting 5 points.
I would love to come to see the exhibitions, but it is a museum too far. I hope the YT algos do something with this comment.
I dunno man, maybe Type 96 was better than either of them. Could attach scope and a bayonet and all that.
That has no handguard though, and the bayonet is kind of a silly Japanese thing of requiring a blade on everything