I've been a professional Sound Engineer for 30 years and an audiophile for 10. This is the first guy (including Paul Mcgowan and Steve Guttenberg) who makes absolute sense. Great unbiased opinions.
Hi Andrew...Yes..I am a NOOB. I was once heavy into audio components many years ago (Late 70's). So Much has changed. I am a professional photographer in NY. I have been using smaller Bluetooth speakers when shooting clients, in my studio. I was looking to upgrade my studio's audio system so have been watching your channel for a couple months. Learning. I really appreciate the ground level, "dont need to spend a mortgage" approach. I opted to purchase a Marantz receiver and a couple Polk Audio RtiA1 bookshelf speakers and stands...Whooaaa! I was blown away streaming from Spotify.! I can see how this can be addicting. Bottom line is I appreciate the genuine, clear insight. Yes, Ive had to google a couple of your acronyms but part of the learning process. Thank you for what you do and clarifying the market.
Good to hear that your first comment was pointing out that the room is #1. That's true by a far margin. The logic that if the source doesn't carry the info it becomes the weak link doesn't stand up in practical application. The question isn't can it provide the content, but how well it does so versus competitive devices at higher and lower price points. When looked at this way, differences in sources make up a relatively low percentage impact vs room and speakers. So its room first, speakers second, and the rest of the signal chain a good ways behind, bringing up the rear.
This is one of my favorite videos! I listen to this often as I have grown back into the 2-channel world. Thank you Andrew! I used this advice in December 2020 to make my first purchases in a very long time, and it was excellent guidance! Thank you again!!
In essence you are affirming the old guideline of 70% of the budget on speakers and 30% on other components (source, DAC, Amp, cables). Great going on reminding everyone that the room will greatly affect (for better or worse) the sound that the system is reproducing. Lastly, the actual quality of the recording is critical, and I don't mean the bitrate. Thanks Andrew.
As a musician and producer, the most important part in my opinion and through my experiences is neither the speaker nor the source but how well the music is recorded and mixed, most modern music is mixed extremely loud and the sound waves are compressed and brick walled, the best sound you’ll ever hear is older alums that were properly recorded and mixed, back that up with a good pair of loudspeakers that sound good and can accurately reproduce the sound and have good stereo imaging, and you’ve got great sound, obviously source matters, but pretty much any uncompressed format should sound good, I prefer vinyl however I do think it sounds better, for me it’s just basic practice to setup my stereo to fit the room, that to me should be as important to most audiophiles as aligning your cartridge, but after you buy your $100,000 system and set it up perfectly if you play bad mixed music it just won’t sound good
Much of my music doesn't come on vinyl. I don't want to be limited by the source:) plus if someone is so kind as to record the vinyl to digital, I get the best of both worlds ( - the teeny sound you get from the needle on the record itself)
Maybe the mainstream music nowadays is loud but you can find a LOT of good modern music very well recorded and produced. An example can be Hand Cannot Erase from Steven Wilson
Quickly to jump into the fray, I'm speaker first as I discovered last year when I was given a nice pair of ADS L810 speakers. They are a very nice set of 3 way bookshelves, well, a tad too big for being a true book shelf speaker, but nevertheless, they, when new, were roughly $700/pair in 1979-80, so not exactly chump change back then and were, at the time considered very good to extremely good for speakers at that price point and are still relevant to this day. They used twin 8" woofers, with an angled baffle between them in a sealed box with a 2" soft dome midrange, and a 3/4" soft dome ferrofluid filled tweeter in a 3 way configuration and when I wad given them, I had a mid 90's BPC (black plastic crap) era Sherwood receiver that pumped out 60W per channel and going from some early 70's Sansui speakers to those was like going from night to day, I heard things that I never did before and noted, for the first time the depth of the soundstage in that the percussion and other bass notes jumped out from in front of the speakers, other parts of the mix stayed at the speaker, the rest behind the speaker being one of them but with that Sherwood, they did sound polite, but I also got a much tighter and more articulate bass response. Room had not changed (still hasn't) but I was getting MORE of what my middling gear was giving me. Add in a NAD 7240PE, I got a much more livelier sounding speaker as the receiver was a huge step up from the Sherwood. So in this instance, speakers are where you should not skimp as you hear more of what you HAVE, plain and simple. You can always upgrade the heart of the system and your source (especially if analog), for digital sources, your DAC now becomes the important part of the chain. Some cheap digital players have terrible DAC's and you may, or may not be able to bypass and use an optical or digital output to a separate DAC. I'm in agreement that there are often way too many DAC's in modern setups (unless you ditch A/V receivers all together and go with a much simpler 2 channel setup) then keep it all analog to the last step just before output to the speakers is best, or keep it all digital to the last step just before output to the speakers will yield much cleaner audio all around. So for that, speakers (besides cartridges and phono stages and to a lesser degree, the table as better tables will handle resonances better than cheaper ones - in general), the speakers can, just by themselves make a HUGE difference in how your system sounds in a positive way (or not if you chose wrong). So that's my take on this.
I think a good active speaker makes so much sense, each driver having it’s own amp has huge benefits with electronic crossovers and time and frequency correction.
I bought my classic Gale GS401's in the early 90's for $200 the pair in mint condition (they were $700 new in 1976), re-surrounded them in 1995, and 45 years later, they still deliver 95% of the quality of most of the best speakers today. And their looks are still to die for. We both did the right thing on day one.
Ya know what makes your channel and discussion approach better than most of the audiophile channels on UA-cam? You don't make anyone feel inadequate.... I watch a fair few and they're all about the £500 a metre USB cables or disparaging a £100 DAC or headphone amp because it's not as good as a £500 which the next day they'll say is also crap because of this new alphabet-soup named DAC that's £4000. You really come at this from the music side... You convey the sentiment that it's ok to love what you have and be satisfied with it which in this world of always being compared and comparing yourself (which some of us find hard to make peace with sometimes) it takes that pressure away.
Speakers make a "difference." Sources make an "improvement." I've tried all kinds of different speakers from JBLs to Harbeths in order to improve sound quality to no avail. However, the Mytek Brooklyn DAC and Tidal made a huge improvement in my sound system this year. If the source is bad, the sound will be bad no matter how good your speakers are.
I find the law of diminishing returns hits hard and fast with sources. I'd also put a lot of money on the assertion that the majority of bleeding edge audiophiles couldn't reliably A/B or ABX test sources when you control for EQ and SPL. I find a well-made $200 DAC with the appropriate I/O will sound more or less as good as a DAC 10X the price. I will admit I can tell the difference between 320kbps vs. higher bitrates but definitely not always.
But also understand speakers can be reveiling or not letting you know if the source is cleaned, detailed, undistorted or not and this is why speakers are more important.Dont have a good dac or recording no problem get a less reveiling speaker and so on.
Its all about creating synergy ! My go to has always been a great front end to my ear opion Pre-amp D.A.C , I just video reviewed the IOTAVX STACK and for a budget front end that matched synergy with all my speakers which is crazy !!
Speakers hands down make the most impact on any setup. Defying that is silly to the point of stupidity. We tested tons of dacs over the years they all sound pretty much the same. We did a blind test (I was subjected to it myself too) with 4 different dacs. I had no idea what dac was on what slot on the switch they used. I wasn’t even told what brands, models ectra. It’s was a wrote in paper down in short what dac A b c or d . And why you choose that dac.. So we all had our choices on the piece of paper which sounded. In our opinion the best, want to feel like a audio fool? They revealed the dacs, they were all the same all 4 of them . Now I know apologists will make all kinds of ridiculous excuses that it’s a flawed test. I call it a eye opener, I never spend tons of money of my cd needs really. It’s complete nonsense hearing differences between a chip that already boasts specs way beyond human hearing needs. Speakers are way more important and have a tremendous impact in a setup .
Michel Linschoten - Your assessment is based on digital sources where there’s less differences between one digital source to the next. Before digital came along, all we had was analog. With analog sources it’s a different story. Linn proved that the source was more important than the speakers back when analog was all we had. One turntable compared to another will make the same speakers sound radically different. That’s before adding in variables like tonearms, phono preamps and cartridges. Turntable, cassette and reel to reel all will make the same speakers sound different. Cassette played on a Fisher Price toy cassette player will make those same speakers sound awful. So, for those of us who still use analog sources, yes - the source quality is as if not more important than the speakers
I really agree with a lot of what was said here. In fact I'm upgrading my 20 year old (decidely mid-fi) system as follows. Now I loved the system when I got it. Simple 3 piece - CD player/Integrated amplifier/Speakers and it all matched perfectly. But my amplifier has deteriorated and my sound quality with it. The CD player is still pristine and of course there's nothing wrong with the speakers. And I really wasn't set up for digital, I'd been plugging in my ipod and later my phone and now my computer through an aux input. Also my theatre was a separate system completely but I've now decided to bring it all together and go with 2 channel for movies too. Putting it all together I have just bought a Marantz NR 1200 - partly based on your review but also after deep consideration of my needs. Its an integrated amp, its a network player, I can hook it up to the lan or use bluetooth and it has ARC so it will work with the TV. And while my CD player was an award winner in the 90s I have no doubt the Marantz will have a newer, better DAC. The plan is now to connect the CD player through its digital coax to the Marantz and bypass the old DAC entirely. I'm thrilled the Marantz will accept my turntable and I'm slightly bummed it doesn't have a tape out/monitor loop because I'm used to employing a graphic equalizer for room correction and I can't do that anymore. But we'll see how it goes. I'll be setting it up next weekend.
Just subscribed... Of all the YT channels treating audio/video stuff and arguments, your is the best by far. Your way of thinking and speaking is flawless: no hype for high end non sense products, always the right indications for novice (this video is PERFECT in any single word) and, in the meantime, a lot of open mind suggestions for navigate audio enthusiasts. Sincerely impressed. Ciao from Italy and sorry for my not so good English. By the way, your English is so intelligible that this is the only channel I can watch without subtitles...
Truly appreciate your take on the topic , I agree a great sounding set of speakers will last years if taken care of and sound great to the owner no matter what new source comes in ,most of us don't sit with a chair in the middle of the room between speakers 6-8 ft from the wall , that in itself doesn't mean we don't appreciate nuances in our music , a good DAC or transport shouldn't have to cost more than your speakers to sound great .
@@Harald_Reindl The room is why the speaker is the most important. Most people can't change out their rooms so that's just the fixed (apart from doing treatment) context for the system. The speaker is the part that directly interacts with the room, which makes that the most important step. I also think it's more important than the source since if we're looking at good gear (and there's little reason to look at bad gear) there are larger variations between good speakers than with good sources.
@@Evil_Peter every room can be treated in one or the other form and with an endless decay it don't matter at all which speakers you use! the source is in doubt nearly equal important than speakers - at least if you have neighbours and/pr want to hear muisc in your older age which means you need a good working dynamic loudness with a good rom-eq but that's all worthless unless you optimize your room as much as you can, plants are good diffusors, acutsic pictuires are absorbers which a woman-acceptance-factor and so on - been the and got from 900 ms decay to 300 ms for most frequencies and 450 ms for the biggest room-mode now with 43 the first time i hear music as it's meant to be - headphones don't work really because you miss the delayed and lower tone from the right speaker on the left ear and vice versa (besides they are uncomfotable) 75% of all my investments (avr, subwoofer, speaker, 65" TV) at the and where room optimization which wasn't even planned at all - and the room is even more beautiful than it was before
@@Harald_Reindl As I said, there is little point in talking about bad stuff and if your room is terrible then yes, anything will sound bad in it. As long as you have a room worth building a good system in, then I think you should start with the speakers as I prefer to work myself one way through the chain, which will inevitably be backwards given the room. Limitations like neighbors can affect things but only for some people so I wouldn't put that into a general rule for building a system. It's just on a list of unfortunate compromises. As for dynamic loudness I really don't like that and I find that it messes up the sound something fierce. Auto EQ can be good but with a good room you probably only need to use it for the low end, as that's the trickiest to get right.
Agree 1) room 2) speakers 3) source...... maybe something else ones ears and mind and the reason why I say this is some days I can’t get into my music and things don’t sound good to me.
There are some brilliant active speakers out there, the likes of: ATC, PMC, DYNAUDIO, FOCAL, GENELEC, ADAM, YAMAHA and others. These loudspeakers are not just used in the realm of professional audio. Some of them contain dac's for Bluetooth, USB, optical and coaxial connections so the source can be connected directly to them without the need for a separate amplifier and dac, which makes for a much more compact audio system.
I'm definitely team speakers. I have had several sources over the years - turntables, laserdisc, cassette players, DVD, Blu-ray, etc. but my speakers have outlast them all. I bought a set of B&W series 600 over 20 years ago and are still rocking. This said, if I could upgrade, I would go for the B&W Formation Duo as this is a speaker/component system that is aiming at the future of audio - at least for the next 10 years.
Catching up on your old videos. I am building a new HiFi system after having been without since the 90’s. My thinking is similar to yours & feel happy you reinforced my 1st purchase decision, Speakers. I bought 2nd hand, the last speakers I will likely ever own at my advanced age, the Klipsch Cornwall 3. Tube amp in the way. Bought an external DAC, because as you said, technology changes so fast, why buy a CD player (as an example) w/built in DAC that will be obsolete in 12-24 months. I vote buy your dream speakers, buy a $99 Schiit DAC & replace that in the future… Thanks for your guidance Sir!
I'll be doing a similar video soon comparing a Walmart CD Player $30 vs my Sony NS999ES CD Player $1200. Then comparing $40 speakers vs $140 speakers. Which will make a more noticeable improvement to sound quality? Thanks for the video. I love these topics and just being realistic.
I'm definitely in the speaker side. I have a pair of Bang and Olufsen Beovox CX100 that i got for cheap (even with refoamed mid/bass units) and they play really nice! i run them with a Denon AVR-1911 reciever wich is far from the best amplifier you could get for that setup. But i still think they sound as amazing as possible with my speaker placement and ears!
Thank you for this video and this discussion. After thirty years away I’m going to put a system back together. My only surviving equipment from my wasted youth is my Teac RTR and my Thorens and Pioneer turntables. I still have my vinyl collection. I’m sort of lost now and grateful for this channel. It’s not like the old days where I could go to a stereo store and listen to loudspeakers anymore. Please don’t throw rocks at me but, as a very young man, I was the envy of my friends because my music room was set up with a double set of Bose 901 Series IV’s. I read that everyone hates Bose loudspeakers now and probably with good reason. At my age and having finished a career punctuated by gunfire, much of my listening comes directly through my digital hearing aids from my iPhone. I am a musician still and love music. I’m looking forward to any wisdom I can gain from this channel now after stumbling across it and subscribing. Thanks to all Bob
I have heard arguments for either side of this topic. The problem with this discussion is the premise that the solution is one or the other. Its not always that simple. To illustrate what I mean I arrived at the above conclusion when I last upgraded my system. My previous system was a compromise - I had a pair of great sounding speakers and a mediocre integrated amp. When I went to upgrade I went with "get the best speakers you can afford and work back to the source". I listened to various stand mount speakers through whatever amp the dealer had on the stand. That got me listening to some really fine amplifiers. I finally chose a speaker that I liked, one that did rock, blues, Celtic/folk really well so I asked if I could try them at home. I was shocked at how flat they sounded on my amplifier so I asked if I could bring my speakers in to listen to them with one of the amplifiers I auditioned previously. I was absolutely stunned at what I heard from my existing speakers (B&W CM5 S2). Talk about being blown away!!! In addition to a tight well controlled bass the mid to upper ranges had more detail and depth. I suddenly heard a sound stage that I hadn't heard before. Then I asked if I could hear them with a pair of entry level B&W sub woofers. I had discovered the system components that I had been looking for. To summarize, if you just attack the source and the speakers without having a quality amplifier you'll never hear what you have. Balance is the key! PS. In case you are interested, the previous amp was a Rotel ra-1572 and the new one is a Simaudio Moon 340i. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that an integrated that costs 2.5 - 3.0 times as much makes a huge difference!!!
Speakers, by far, are the most important part of your audio train. They are the physical medium that directly interacts with your ears. The electronics hardly matter at all in today's audiophile world. I can hook up a boom-box to drive a good pair of speakers and they can still sound decent. Most likely, MUCH better than the boom-box speakers. Hook up your high-end electronics to drive a pair of boom-box speakers, chances are it's still going to sound like boom-box speakers.
Yet, there is a feel in good audio, like cristalline punch at low volume, and if the speaker needs to be good, it can't show that low volume punchy clarity and separation if there isn't decent amplification behind to bring that to the speakers.
Very well done, I especially liked the part where you talked about the future, as in streaming taking over even CDs and someone who spent thousands on a CD player would regret it now or in the near future.
Great video Andrew! The Speaker technology today is truly amazing ; I recently listened to a pair of Magnepan LRS’s ($800can) driven by the entry level Hegel H90($2000can) ...totally blown away by how good these are ! The Hegel does everything too( built in Dac ,headphone jack and streamer )
I truly enjoy your videos and have them playing in the background as I work from home. Great content and explanation while taking a different more mellow approach to the typical high energy fast paced home media UA-cam videos. Excellent work!
My number one rule is to think of the room/speaker interface as one. Some investigation and understanding of acoustics is necessary. Do the speakers need to be placed at least three feet from the back wall to prevent bass overload, or are they designed to be placed closer to the wall. Is there going to be a large reflective TV screen between the speakers that will cause first order reflections? If so consider bipolar speakers. If the back wall to your listening position is very close consider some sort of acoustic panels.
I like what you said at beginning, if people understood room acoustics first as common knowledge , I think a lot less money would be spent on equipment, it’s as important as A1 with steak
Shoot... after watching this video I'm stuck going forward now ..... Wanted to upgrade my old pioneer elite vsx-82 that powers my elac uni-fi uf5 to a big upgrade, was looking at getting yamaha a6a and an 7ch amp that does 180W all chenel driven or even going the separates way.... this video was in 2019 and you spoke about wifi and self powered speakers. Now ,should I just go buy on what I was planning to get or just get speakers that have self amplification?? 🤔
I subscribe to the theory of walking up the path of sound from your ears to the electrical signal generating it... room / speakers / amp / pre / source. Also I find that the weakest link of the chain limits the overall sound. Example: you can have the most resolving dac but if you have un resolving loudspeakers you just loose the benefits of the dac. Very interesting video!!! Keep up the great work!!
The biggest impact is room. But, for digital sources, second biggest is almost a equal split between DAC implenetation & speakers. A cheap transport and integrated amp (as long as it has the headroom and clean watts) should be fine. A 1000 dollar amp and a 50,000 dollar amp is going to make very little of a difference (Completely diminished returns)...
Prior to see all you video I have to say that for me the source is more important, and when I said the souse I am assuming that the mastering of the recording has a lot of impact and is included in the source. I have a budget system and I it took my attention how big in the sound quality difference with the same amplifier and speakers when you play different sources.
Speakers are where it's at-- Buy used! I have 6 sets of ( main) speakers, 4 of them high end-- all of them used for a fraction of the original price. I bought a pair of $4,000. Castle Winchesters (8K today) in absolute immaculate condition for $400. A pair of JBL studio monitors again in mint condition for $100. There are a number of fantastic deals I have had to turn down... nowhere to put them and a wife running out of patience.
I consider the question itself debatable. There is a massive difference in the spectrum of sources versus speakers. The speaker is exclusively a transducer that converts electrical energy into air pressure variation. A source can be digital to analogue conversion, analogue signal manipulation, digital processing or a transducer, in the case of a turntable, converting mechanical movements into an electrical signal. Transducer design and implementation is much more complex than electronics, and analogue electronics more complex than digital.
I have my own views and personal preferences regarding Hi Fi and being an audiophile in the modern age. Firstly I agree that the room is the most important and biggest factor to get right. It’s the one thing that will massively affect how your gear sounds. Much more than anything else. Next sources. Personally I think that in today’s age a DAC is a DAC. I’ve compared various DACs back to back, side by side in the same system and level matched. There is zero difference between them. Turntables, to a degree are important. However I don’t believe it is necessary to spend a lot of money on one to get a real hi fi experience from vinyl. Avoid the cheapest and nastiest ones, but even the most budget of decks from the likes of Pro-Ject as an example are absolutely brilliant with the sound they can produce. Speakers are probably the one part of the electronic chain which will make the biggest difference to what you hear. Saying that the differences between price points are not as big as what the hit to your wallet is. I honestly think that a 1000 dollars pair of speakers set up as well as possible should be all that anyone will ever need, to listen to recorded media in the home. Streaming and the future of hi fi. Well one of the things I love about hi fi in it’s traditional form is it’s lack of software. No operating system to be constantly updated, no bugs, no manufacturers forced life spans due to obsoletion with unsupported software etc... Sometimes I really like putting on a CD, no need for internet, no need to wait on anything booting up, or updating, no scrolling on a screen. Just press play and that’s it. The same with vinyl, it’s a connection to your music collection without the interference of the electronic web connected world. One of my biggest gripes with streaming from a phone is the music interruption for a text, or a social media notification. Going off on a light tangent here, but... My digital music library user interface has been spoiled by Apple with OS Catalina. It’s worse IMO not better and it’s full of bugs. My old iPod touch has been made incompatible with it. I don’t want to use a streaming service when I own a massive music library. Yes I like making my own playlists from my own digital library, but I wish there weren’t always changes to user interfaces for changes sake, with OS updates. The vision of the future with a smart display and a pair of speakers, with a wireless turntable (all of which is here already as you said) is exactly what I will make damn sure I avoid for as long as possible. Software and internet driven hi fi, with an analogue source being converted to digital and then back to analogue, for what? To save on a couple of wires and a pre amp? An amplifier driving a pair of speakers with a turntable, a dedicated CD Player (they are by far the nicest user interface to play CDs), a Blu-ray & SACD Player and my network streamer for my personal music library are all I will ever need. My Pioneer N50 network player/DAC is as far as I will go with getting up to date with the modern age of music playback. As I said earlier, Apple have made that experience more fiddly and harder for me to enjoy to some extent. Good old fashioned hi fi disconnected from the World Wide Web with no software is where it’s staying for me. As the bugs gradually get ironed out of Catalina and Apple Music, I may never update my iMac or latest iPod Touch again. If it works leave it alone. Yes I still use an iPod in 2019.
Funny... I was just talking to someone today while trailing in the woods and we got on the subject. My opinion is the same for computers. Speakers first (Monitors for computers) as they change or should change the least once you've found a sound signature that you like. Then setting up the placement of said speakers and then room treatment till those said speakers sound their best. Then changing your source to fit as you'll actually hear the change where other variables may come into play if you do it in reverse and you may keep chasing a sound that ultimately too many variables exist.
(ignoring the recording itself, room and listening position) I got advice from a salesman years ago when I was comparing cerwin vega (AT series) in a store compared to more typical budget hifi speakers. For a cd based system he said forget the standard 'garbage in garbage out' and work backwards: try different speakers and select the ones you 'like the overall presentation of', get a competent amp that will drive them as loud as you need and then just get a modest CD player and you will be 95% the way there. I think the lesson there was that its barely worth fussing over cd (digital) source when the speakers are what you really need to get right as differences between them can be very significant.
Great video. A lot to think about. In the coming future described, phone + wireless speakers : 1 ° Will my brand new (wired) speakers be compatible with this paradigm ? 2° What will become a company such as Yamaha ? Selling cellphones and speakers ? 3° When can we expect to have a fully 5.1.2 (or more) wireless ? Given that even KEF LSX speakers are still not really wireless. What will send the signal, the TV ?
Just here to learn and your an absolute pleasure to listen to even if you ramble. I'm just a guy who has what he has cause he wandered into it. After 10 years I finally got around to calibrating my 7.2.1 theatre system because I finally had the time to make some time. I was blown away by how good it sounded, when my original thinking was that, in order to make this sound better I need to throw more money at it ....lol. Then it opened eyes ( or ears ) , to what else is possible ? So here I am willing to listen and learn !!
I really think everything is important but you are right the speakers are the key. I'm a big advocate for powered speakers for an entry level system. The fun after i chose my speakers was to optimize. a dac, ifi ipower, good interconnects, good power cables. I loved it so much that i kept it till this day. It's only today with a more conftable situation that i'm contemplating making a better system because there is always something better :(
Finding the speakers too bright? Because online reviewers keep recommending these super bright speakers which frankly if you listen to them, it's grating. But we can't listen test speakers anymore.
I’m down to a tv, turntable, AVR and speakers. I use to have a rack full of stuff. Back in the day every connection on the back of my AVR was full. These days my Marantz has almost all the ports not in use just and they are a waste of space. At some point I would expect the AVR to be really dumbed down to just EARC and maybe an aux input that can toggle to a phono setup, which is how a lot of powered speaker setups are moving to these days. So yeah I think your thoughts on the future of audio is right in the money!
I am not into streaming or separate dacs...although I do have a dac in my JVC 5 dish cd player...I have fluance RT-85 TT and a pioneer SX-780 and a Kenwood KA-5500 ...into B&W Dm6 speakers...to me all things in the line are important .Speakers are the most important as they are what you hear in the end..
In my opinion your system will always sound like your speakers. Components will change the sound to one degree or another but you are always listening to them through your speakers.
"before you put money in harms way" - that should be in every financial advisors vocabulary. Honestly, this format is great and would be great content to repurpose as a podcast (yea I said the dreaded 'P' word).
Isn’t it all relative? My room (attick) is far from ideal (according to ‘standards’) and it will never be. It did not stop me from investing in equipment and enjoying listening to music. Should I have said ‘the room will never be ideal’ and therefore I settle for cheap speakers, receiver etc.? No way. What I have now sounds far better than what I had and I am very happy with it. Thats all that counts for me.
i would have say loudspeaker all the way maybe 3 or 4 years ago, now the most bliss i have found are in sources but for you to really appreciate that loudspeakers must sound right and that's not easy to know if you're starting out in hi-fi hobby it will take you time and knowlegde to see sources differences rather than loudspeakers. By the way good thoughts its not easy to explain something so subjective.
I agree with you that speakers are more important in the spirit of audiophile. I'm a classical trained musician but I have an eclectic taste, I have been in a rock band, play Jazz etc. I believe when it comes to music system component, it really is generation dependent. I have a pair of Spendor, driven by Plinius 8200 integrated, with Esoteric A50 CD/SACD player(use it as DAC as well) for work I have no choice but to buy a bluetooth speaker, the stuff kids are listening to today(I'm 42), let's say in the pop culture, most of the recordings are produced with a highly compressed, super clear digital sound. Bluetooth speakers around $500 sound pretty good with those type of music! You take away Classical, Jazz and some World music which I think these are the genres where sound engineers really take on the challenge of perfecting the art of micing, the angles of the microphones, and distance. All these hard works can be heard on some rock and pop albums as well, but the digitised sound today kind of loses the characteristic aspect, for example a particular guitar sound can be now standardised, with computer software the same guitar sound EQ and compressed the same way can be easily transplanted to another recording. We hear people talk about the legends, just a first few seconds, you can tell it's played by Jimi Page or Keith Richard, because these artists organically came up with that sound, so in comparison to the pop culture now it really is a tricky one. One thing for sure, a pair of good speakers will deepen one's musical experience, I have gone a full circle of upgrading and changing components over the years, music is still the most important thing, I agree about saving up for something made by the hi fi specialists(even if it's just entry level), also each company tune their sound based on a certain belief, a lot of auditioning is definitely recommended, some brands sound better on certain music, so it does boil down to taste. Really enjoy your reviews, it will be great if you could talk about what music you listen to when you talk about a certain component, it doesn't matter if it's a personal preference. Like I found your channel because I was thinking about auditioning JBL L100, if you talk about music, with a particular track or album, then it makes your description more imaginable.
For digital, Speakers. For Analog, about equal. For Vinyl theres a lot of issues and disappointment that can occur if the source isnt up to snuff. Mainly thinking of cartridges here, a low end stylus can distort a lot which may be a big turn off for some, and it wont be solved with any amount of speaker expenditure. It also causes more wear on the records themselves so getting a great performing cart and stylus is top priority for me as a Vinyl fan and its what I recommend beginners focus on too, safer in the long run. The Media itself also matters more in vinyl, as there are a lot of terrible pressings vs the better ones and getting one versus the other can be pretty night and day independent of system, and again a gentle playback device will make those expensive pressings wear less and play cleaner.
@@ranbymonkeys2384 A lot of it depends on the mastering, you cant make an equal comparison like this. There are CDs that sound worse than vinyl too, not just subjectively either, but statistically, with worse dynamics, etc.
@@ranbymonkeys2384 Did I say you said it was equal? No, so chill out dude, damn, you must be the defensive of the family. And I guess you just have a collection full of bad vinyl then.
@@ranbymonkeys2384 It sounds like the only one pissed here is you. If none of your records sound better than all digital then Im sorry, you either have badly mastered records or possibly your Grado cart is too muffled because a lot of them are.
Everything in the chain matters, a weak link anywhere will affect your your sound quality. Transports certainly matter also, I found the Cambridge CXC to sound better than an Audiolab CDT6000 and older TOTL JVC. It's not just 1's and 0's despite being digital, lots out there to read up on this topic. Do your research and get the best you can afford. Not all products with good reviews have the best sound, best to try as much as you can with your own ears if you want exceedingly good sound.
I totally agree with you about the room being an important part of the system. I was thinking about upgrading speakers, and after adding some foam acoustic panels I changed my mind. I thought I had pretty good acoustics in my room already, then I added some rather inexpensive foam tiles from Amazon. That turned out to be the system upgrade for me! Thanks for another great video Andrew.
Yup and you can also DIY absorber panels quite easily in various ways from stuff like insulation batts and some frames out of wood or aluminium, and cover that in fabric. The ideal is probably something like 4 inches thick, or 2 inches thick with a 2 inch air gap, which can look intrusive in a room.
I agree that there are many variables in listening to your music. I believe that we grow into what we determine as quality sound. Growing up we used to listen to music from drive-n-movie theater loudspeakers, and we thought that was cool until we heard better quality speakers. The listening platform is going to continue to change, as you pointed out. My theory is to build a system that helps you get your grove on.
My question is based on your opinion about the room being the most important thing to get right, how does one begin to treat a room for a system that either is yet constructed? And in an existing room, how does one determine between absorption, diffusion, traps, etc., especially if you're not and audio engineer? I honestly feel like my room is the most intimidating part this hobby, as I've heard it said that until you treat the room, you really haven't heard your system.
Synergistic Research is an excellent source of of passive devices for treating rooms. You can consult with them to determine what you might need. And I think all their dealers offer money-back satisfaction guarantees so you can experiment to see what works and what doesn't. An acquaintance who owns a high-end system ordered a number of the HFTs to hear what they would do in his small living room. We were both amazed how these little gizmos made the speakers disappear and his room sound like the soundstage was double in size!
Today: Digital = no difference Electronics = (almost) no difference Conversion to sound pressure = huge difference If you don’t agree you either are an esoteric or you really should do your physics homework. Period.
As with every comments section there are always those who chime in with some of the most unlikely scenarios and base their ideas and suggestions around situations that may exist but are rare at best. For most people, most of the time the two most important things in their system will be speakers and source material. Period. Speakers are the ultimate arbiter of your sound. The vast majority of people in this country (not true all over the world, I understand) live within a couple or three hours of a dealer with the most common and affordable gear they could get a great demo from. Most everyone else can buy from a reputable online retailer that will refund your money if you're not happy with your purchase. So there's no reason to pretend anyone has to buy blind and live with the result for the rest of their lives. Anyway, find your sound and anything you add along the way will only serve to enhance it. But buy some speaker you were told should be great but doesn't suit you and you will never find a source, DAC or amplifier to magically turn them into your preferred speakers. Source material is the other big elephant in the room. If you pump water into your twelve hundred horsepower supercar's gas tank how do you think it's going to perform? Exactly. Your average Toyota Corolla will then outrun it. You have to feed your system with the best source material/recording you can get if you want the best performance from it. As far as the room goes. Well, let's be honest. Most people do not have the space or budget to dedicate an entire room to audio. The stereo is part of a family area or other shared space. I'm not married and have no one around to gripe about room treatments but I'm not going to waste space on corner traps or sully the walls with diffusers and such. I have an area rug, both cloth and leather furniture and smaller speakers that are easier to place in a more advantageous position. I prefer larger speakers and perhaps one day will move to a space where larger speakers would work better but for now I am happy. SO, a good video might be to advise people on how to make the most of their spaces when compromise of one form or another is necessary.
I second this about necessary compromises. My stuff is in a family room where any but the most basic form of treatments like rugs or curtains are off the table.
Hello New to the channel. Discovered it as was researching various pieces of equipment. In my experience speakers are most important. I bought my first set of speakers 20,years ago and they are still going strong. I am only now getting around to upgrade them. Anytime I change the components it’s like they get new life. The technology may change sources over time but speakers are relatively stable by comparison.
I'm new to this so perhaps I don't understand but don't all the sources go the amplifier (in my case an A/V amplifier by Denon) and then the amplifier wires go to the speakers. Isn't the amplifier critical? If you an OPPO Blu-ray player but it's going to the amplifier, then the sound that goes to the speakers will be impacted by the amplifier as well. Perhaps the types of connections between the blu-ray player and the amplifier are critical as well (e.g. HDMI vs optical or coxial)?
Your system is only as good as its weakest link. If you have excellent speakers & a crappy amplifier. Your speakers will accurately reproduce the crappy sound fed to them. If you have an excellent amplifier & crappy speakers. Your speakers will not be able to recreate the excellent sound sent to them and will sound as crappy as they are.
Speaker cables colour the source as do power cables. I will and can confirm that a cd sounds inherently better than a streaming source. Timing is everything when reading the ones and zeros. A good cd transport that feeds a good dac will sound better than a dac that streams. The older SONY CD players still fetch a premium on the net. Built like tanks, premium parts, wonderful as a stand alone CD player with the dac chips inside and super just as a transport. There are lots of factors that help make your speakers shine. You are correct with how your room is. Also speaker positioning is so important. You could have a 30k system and if it’s not set up right it will sound truly awful. Over the years I have got to understand how and what effects the sound. What works in the chain from the plug socket to the speaker. The way of thinking over the past few years is to extract every inch of sound out of the source and to my mind and listening, it sounds truly horrendous. It’s very much in your face and doesn’t sound as it was intended. Call it what you will, digital glare, open, resolving, whatever. You can keep it. Tubes in my dac and amplifier. Now that’s another story....
I’m building a system from scratch. I’m damn near sixty and just caught the audio bug. So I’m learning quickly that speakers are important but where the sound comes from really matters. Just found quite by accident a pioneer reel to reel and it sounds great. Was sourcing from marantz 2270 and picked up concept 7.5 and a concept 11.0. In my opinion they perform for me better. With the same speakers I’ve been using. A pair of klipsch heresy paired with audio nirvana fifteen inch full range. Soon to put in line a Mitsubishi DA-A10 to see what it does. Hopefully improve sound..we’ll see
Thanks a lot for the video Andrew. Was about to rush into a decision, but with what you said, I think I will need to mull over the future of hifi and what’s truly important before committing to a decision. Subscribed too by the way.
Good video! I’m going to go in a slightly different direction, but it’s relevant because you spent a lot of time talking about it in this video. I’m going to come down in favor of Team Separates. And here’s why: It’s not that you can’t get great sound out of systems like you’re describing. I think you can. But I think the nature of the hobby for some of us is... “fiddling” for lack of a better term. For instance, the phono preamp in my receiver seems perfectly adequate. But I long to hear what another preamp might do to the sound. So, ultimately, I’d be better off with a phono preamp that I don’t have to circumvent some time in the future. Your point is well taken that an integrated amplifier with preamp outs give you some options as to how you prioritize upgrading. But I suspect if the owner gets really into it, s/he will probably end up with a separate preamp. That’s what I don’t like about active speakers. It takes too much of the choice away for me AND it saddles me with a component that I’ll eventually dispose of in some fashion. Certain customers will be fine living with an all-in-one solution, but if you really get into the HOBBY aspect, I think separates in as many separate boxes as you can afford are the best way too go... for now anyways.
I hear you Andrew and what you say is all true but how do you know this, by experience and owning a lot of speakers and sources. But isn't that half the fun finding out for your self what works and what doesn't. I know nothing about this hobby but all hobbies are the same. Most of the enjoyment comes from the journey. I enjoy watching you videos and learning, keep it up mate
These are great points, and one thing to always keep in mind is the difference between stats and the human ear. The move to digital sources was massive, because the human ear can't distinguish between super high-end digital sources and moderately priced digital sources. If one source can produce a s/n ratio of 110 and another of 130, what diff? Your ears simply cannot detect any difference. So this move to digital sources has very effectively unified the quality of sound generation. It mattered a LOT more when everyone had turntables and tape decks. Today, I'd say speaker selection is clearly more important, and with today's technology, just easier to avoid going wrong. As an example, you can buy a pair of Polk Audio Signature Elite ES60 speakers for under $900 during their sales, and these are fantastic performers. The move from analog to digital sources was a very, very fast leap forward, while speaker technology is slower to advance...but it is clearly advancing.
You need to have a GOOD source. But once you get into 44.1 territory, nothing above that makes a discernible difference to me. Even Spotify Premium sounds pretty dang good. Put the money into the thing that reproduces the media - a good amp and speaker/headphone always comes first for me.
Speakers for AV are like lenses in photography... they will usually outlive the electronics (Sources/Transports/DACs/Amplifiers or Cameras) and still work great, even with newer electronic devices! I would put my money 65:25:10 in speakers:electronics:everything else (cables, room treatment etc.). Love your channel ❤️
Interesting question about did we choose the wrong speakers. Perhaps but i think it's part of the journey. We started out in our teens with minimal spending power and without the sophistication that develops for what pleases us. Spending power increases and we acquire the speakers that are in line with the sound we are looking for.
Spend the most money on a great air purifier because the sound waves travel through space interacting with air. The cleaner the air, the better the sound in your ear. This will be the next best thing for audiophiles who want to get that extra 0.0000004 percent out of their system.
The quality of music recording matters a bit. After that, the speakers/room. When if the music is in lower quality or not great recording, I prefer to hear it on better speakers.
More than a bit, the recording quality is HUGE. If you start with a turd, the most expensive amps and speakers in the world will still make it sound like a turd.
Absolutely agree. Example of a poor recording is "love ain't no stranger" by Whitesnake. I love the song, but until I got my system, I never knew how flat the recording sounded. It doesn't really have much soundstage even off Tidal 24 bit. The highs don't have much detail either. Other recordings have a lot of depth in my system, and drum skins and symbols have that pop even at 16 bit.
In my experience I agree speakers over source. Especially if you'll mostly be streaming. Many phones have decents DACs now too and will only get better. The quad DAC in LG V20, V30, V40, V50, G7 ThinQ beats many $100 - $250 DACs on the market. Plug the phone into a decent amp and some good speakers, can be pretty impressive
@@mercurialmagictrees Its totally not an issue unless you are into listening to things with nice audio equipment.... BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE CHANNEL IS ABOUT! Just kidding with the insane person tone, its actually not a big deal at all.
You make the case for systems of the future going from phone to hifi player/amp/receiver to speakers but if you are connecting to your hifi system via your phone's bluetooth connection (vs a hifi player that can connect to internet directly) then isn't that going to downgrade the audio performance?
I've been in this hobby a long time it's always been a given that the source we'll have a more significant role in fidelity of your stereo system For instance if you buy a higher res CD or record your stereo will sound better your speaker cannot create music that's the source's job. Are higher end source reproduced by a lesser speaker will get the most out of the speaker but a high end speaker playing Lo-Fi music will still be Lo-Fi.
The source (analog or digital), then the room configuration, the speakers, preamp/dac, amps, cables.,power supply...in that order. But, foremost is the passion for music reproduction.
This is the best piece of advice I ever encountered in my 35 years as an audiophile! It should be added to the 'audio Bible' and be required reading for anyone who wants to know what this hobby is all about.
@@EddyTeetree Sorry to disapoint you but I am serious as I can be. But if you are of another opinion, that's ok too. We are different people with different tastes and experiences, so our opinions might diverge also.
I think you nailed it earlier in the video. I’m paraphrasing but I think you mean the entire signal chain matters. Bad source and good speakers will sound bad. Good source and bad speakers will sound bad. When we start getting into DACs I think we’re splitting hairs at that point.
dennem why not a proper amp and then climb the speaker ladder to scale.... if you have a great amp, most speakers will sound great. I shudder at the thought of someone spending 2 grand on speakers and then powering them with a $200 receiver. If the question is “where is it best to invest when starting out?” Then why not start with the heartbeat of a system. Think about how good $500 speakers are now a days and how bad most $500 amplifiers perform...
Rick Bradshaw I think $500 stereo amps are pretty good today, but they won’t drive any speaker, so proper matching is needed. A $500 amp with $1500 speakers will sound better than a $1500 amp with $500 speakers, so that’s why I put speakers above amplification.
@@audiofun999 well, maybe... pick a $1500 speaker and try matching it with a $500 amplifier. It's not that easy, especially, if you don't know what you're doing... Like A Dynaudio Evoke 10 at 84 db sensitivity and a 6 ohm impedance.... Unless you go with a pro amp, you're not going to be able to power them properly with an off the shelf integrated at the $500 price point. I would dare to argue that a more modest speaker is designed for more modest amplification.
My "traditional" hierarchy (analogue source and class AB amp) would be that the source is most important, followed by the amp, followed by the speakers. These days (digital source and class D amp) I would amend that order to the DAC being most important, followed by the speaker, followed by the amp, as I've heard £10 Chinese class D amps off eBay which wipe the floor with old AB amps from Technics, Sony etc. The reason I deem speakers to be relatively unimportant, specifically at the entry level, is that good electronics can make truly dreadful speakers sound really good
This. The better my speakers, the bigger the difference between well mastered albums and bad ones. I'm starting to dislike someone of my lifelong favorites because they no longer sound good to me.
I consider the DAC to be more important than the digital medium, as while the digital source might change the sound a bit, the DAC is the device that makes it into music. It seems the differences between individual DACs can be wildly different both in quality and sound coloration. A great DAC will make your speakers sound their best, a poor one will be revealed by those same speakers. I believe that it is better to have a DAC that is the best part of your system as everything else in it will sound the best according to their limits.
Yes, I concur. The 'old' days of HiFi it used to be the case of split any proposed budget equally for each component plus about 10% for cables and interconnects. These days I advise people that the biggest investment that they can make is time, reading and listening to as much as they can before buying and then go to the shows just to have a look. They will then know if they want to get involved in the hobby or not or do they just want a bit of background music. I then tell people (when asked) to spend the most on the amp and speakers and then add to this, simply because digital is so ubiquitous and that sources are changing s much. I've even discouraged some younger adults from getting into vinyl and led them to high quality streaming first. Maybe I'm wrong but digital streaming and DACS are getting so good that I feel that this is the place to start when it comes to sources thus if your speakers and amplifier will last you 'ages' if invested in wisely and will still be there as sources advance and change.
Paul Leonard I think speakers sub $1000 have improved greatly in the past five years as well. I’d say spend the most on amplification, budget dac and then mid tier speakers...
Thank You for this channel. Very informative, balanced, and transparent. Your command of the English language is a thing of scholars. Your knowledge of stereo hardware is awesome. Recovering audiophile LOL love it! Again...Thank You. Cheers! V/r,
I am in the speaker and source are equal camp. I think people should start with speaker first, listen to variety at several different price points and choose the one that suits to your tastes and interacts well with your listening room. Then play around with the electronics that will feed them. Synergy is the most important element of all, for me. All too often, I hear a great pair of highly resolving speakers faithfully reproducing the shortcomings of the electronics within the signal chain, or room. It leaves me wondering, if the person went down a notch or two on the speaker side and invested a little more in their turntable, media player, or treatments, if the result would be a fuller more engaging sound. I also have observed that you can get a lot out of speakers these days. Numerous times I have heard a $650.00 pair of speakers being fed by a $2000 integrated and went WOW! Not that I would recommend this approach, but still it gives one pause. If such a set up provides the musical truth you are looking for, why not?
I realize this video is a year old, but I'm hoping to get some advice andrew. I just got into vinyl, bought this pro ject RPM1 player a couple of weeks ago and i love it. I want to get a new phono stage at some point, currently using the built in on my marantz sr6012. What would you recommend for below $500. I find i really love the sound of vinyl, but would like some more detail and clarity if possible. I just want to get whatever i can out of my LPs but I'm unsure what to actually get.
Funny about the DAC, I recently revived my love of hifi by buying a wireless DAC for $100 from danish brand Argon, with a ESS Sabre chip. My 20 year old AV reciever now sounds better than anything I heard back then when I got it. Literally. Which also means - who knew my poor 15 year old B&W 685 could sound that good?
I've been a professional Sound Engineer for 30 years and an audiophile for 10. This is the first guy (including Paul Mcgowan and Steve Guttenberg) who makes absolute sense. Great unbiased opinions.
OMG, thank you so much Keith. Appreciate that, truly.
Hi Andrew...Yes..I am a NOOB. I was once heavy into audio components many years ago (Late 70's). So Much has changed. I am a professional photographer in NY. I have been using smaller Bluetooth speakers when shooting clients, in my studio. I was looking to upgrade my studio's audio system so have been watching your channel for a couple months. Learning. I really appreciate the ground level, "dont need to spend a mortgage" approach. I opted to purchase a Marantz receiver and a couple Polk Audio RtiA1 bookshelf speakers and stands...Whooaaa! I was blown away streaming from Spotify.! I can see how this can be addicting. Bottom line is I appreciate the genuine, clear insight. Yes, Ive had to google a couple of your acronyms but part of the learning process. Thank you for what you do and clarifying the market.
Rich I really appreciate your comment. Thank you. Stay safe and be well!
Rich Ackerbauer don’t forget that you can set Spotify (if a premium member) to “Very High” quality for 320kbps streaming!
@@andrewrobinsonreviews I do stream from my desktop. I dont think from desktop, I can change stream quality. only from my phone app?
Good to hear that your first comment was pointing out that the room is #1. That's true by a far margin. The logic that if the source doesn't carry the info it becomes the weak link doesn't stand up in practical application. The question isn't can it provide the content, but how well it does so versus competitive devices at higher and lower price points. When looked at this way, differences in sources make up a relatively low percentage impact vs room and speakers. So its room first, speakers second, and the rest of the signal chain a good ways behind, bringing up the rear.
This is one of my favorite videos! I listen to this often as I have grown back into the 2-channel world. Thank you Andrew! I used this advice in December 2020 to make my first purchases in a very long time, and it was excellent guidance! Thank you again!!
In essence you are affirming the old guideline of 70% of the budget on speakers and 30% on other components (source, DAC, Amp, cables). Great going on reminding everyone that the room will greatly affect (for better or worse) the sound that the system is reproducing. Lastly, the actual quality of the recording is critical, and I don't mean the bitrate. Thanks Andrew.
As a musician and producer, the most important part in my opinion and through my experiences is neither the speaker nor the source but how well the music is recorded and mixed, most modern music is mixed extremely loud and the sound waves are compressed and brick walled, the best sound you’ll ever hear is older alums that were properly recorded and mixed, back that up with a good pair of loudspeakers that sound good and can accurately reproduce the sound and have good stereo imaging, and you’ve got great sound, obviously source matters, but pretty much any uncompressed format should sound good, I prefer vinyl however I do think it sounds better, for me it’s just basic practice to setup my stereo to fit the room, that to me should be as important to most audiophiles as aligning your cartridge, but after you buy your $100,000 system and set it up perfectly if you play bad mixed music it just won’t sound good
B I N G O....crappy recording/mixing = crappy sound no matter how much your system costs
So yea tldr the source
Much of my music doesn't come on vinyl. I don't want to be limited by the source:) plus if someone is so kind as to record the vinyl to digital, I get the best of both worlds ( - the teeny sound you get from the needle on the record itself)
Maybe the mainstream music nowadays is loud but you can find a LOT of good modern music very well recorded and produced. An example can be Hand Cannot Erase from Steven Wilson
Quickly to jump into the fray, I'm speaker first as I discovered last year when I was given a nice pair of ADS L810 speakers. They are a very nice set of 3 way bookshelves, well, a tad too big for being a true book shelf speaker, but nevertheless, they, when new, were roughly $700/pair in 1979-80, so not exactly chump change back then and were, at the time considered very good to extremely good for speakers at that price point and are still relevant to this day. They used twin 8" woofers, with an angled baffle between them in a sealed box with a 2" soft dome midrange, and a 3/4" soft dome ferrofluid filled tweeter in a 3 way configuration and when I wad given them, I had a mid 90's BPC (black plastic crap) era Sherwood receiver that pumped out 60W per channel and going from some early 70's Sansui speakers to those was like going from night to day, I heard things that I never did before and noted, for the first time the depth of the soundstage in that the percussion and other bass notes jumped out from in front of the speakers, other parts of the mix stayed at the speaker, the rest behind the speaker being one of them but with that Sherwood, they did sound polite, but I also got a much tighter and more articulate bass response. Room had not changed (still hasn't) but I was getting MORE of what my middling gear was giving me. Add in a NAD 7240PE, I got a much more livelier sounding speaker as the receiver was a huge step up from the Sherwood.
So in this instance, speakers are where you should not skimp as you hear more of what you HAVE, plain and simple. You can always upgrade the heart of the system and your source (especially if analog), for digital sources, your DAC now becomes the important part of the chain. Some cheap digital players have terrible DAC's and you may, or may not be able to bypass and use an optical or digital output to a separate DAC. I'm in agreement that there are often way too many DAC's in modern setups (unless you ditch A/V receivers all together and go with a much simpler 2 channel setup) then keep it all analog to the last step just before output to the speakers is best, or keep it all digital to the last step just before output to the speakers will yield much cleaner audio all around.
So for that, speakers (besides cartridges and phono stages and to a lesser degree, the table as better tables will handle resonances better than cheaper ones - in general), the speakers can, just by themselves make a HUGE difference in how your system sounds in a positive way (or not if you chose wrong).
So that's my take on this.
I think a good active speaker makes so much sense, each driver having it’s own amp has huge benefits with electronic crossovers and time and frequency correction.
I bought my 1989 B&W 801's in 1999 for $2200. These speakers were amazing 30 years ago, 20 years ago.... and are still amazing TODAY!
Absolutely agree. Buying new speakers is fun but there are some great used bargains out there.
I bought my classic Gale GS401's in the early 90's for $200 the pair in mint condition (they were $700 new in 1976), re-surrounded them in 1995, and 45 years later, they still deliver 95% of the quality of most of the best speakers today. And their looks are still to die for. We both did the right thing on day one.
I built my first from stuff I bought for pennies at the goodwill. Everything I bought later made a noticeable difference.
Ya know what makes your channel and discussion approach better than most of the audiophile channels on UA-cam? You don't make anyone feel inadequate.... I watch a fair few and they're all about the £500 a metre USB cables or disparaging a £100 DAC or headphone amp because it's not as good as a £500 which the next day they'll say is also crap because of this new alphabet-soup named DAC that's £4000.
You really come at this from the music side... You convey the sentiment that it's ok to love what you have and be satisfied with it which in this world of always being compared and comparing yourself (which some of us find hard to make peace with sometimes) it takes that pressure away.
Speakers make a "difference." Sources make an "improvement." I've tried all kinds of different speakers from JBLs to Harbeths in order to improve sound quality to no avail. However, the Mytek Brooklyn DAC and Tidal made a huge improvement in my sound system this year. If the source is bad, the sound will be bad no matter how good your speakers are.
I find the law of diminishing returns hits hard and fast with sources. I'd also put a lot of money on the assertion that the majority of bleeding edge audiophiles couldn't reliably A/B or ABX test sources when you control for EQ and SPL. I find a well-made $200 DAC with the appropriate I/O will sound more or less as good as a DAC 10X the price. I will admit I can tell the difference between 320kbps vs. higher bitrates but definitely not always.
But also understand speakers can be reveiling or not letting you know if the source is cleaned, detailed, undistorted or not and this is why speakers are more important.Dont have a good dac or recording no problem get a less reveiling speaker and so on.
Its all about creating synergy ! My go to has always been a great front end to my ear opion Pre-amp D.A.C , I just video reviewed the IOTAVX STACK and for a budget front end that matched synergy with all my speakers which is crazy !!
Speakers hands down make the most impact on any setup. Defying that is silly to the point of stupidity.
We tested tons of dacs over the years they all sound pretty much the same. We did a blind test (I was subjected to it myself too) with 4 different dacs. I had no idea what dac was on what slot on the switch they used. I wasn’t even told what brands, models ectra. It’s was a wrote in paper down in short what dac A b c or d . And why you choose that dac..
So we all had our choices on the piece of paper which sounded. In our opinion the best, want to feel like a audio fool? They revealed the dacs, they were all the same all 4 of them .
Now I know apologists will make all kinds of ridiculous excuses that it’s a flawed test. I call it a eye opener, I never spend tons of money of my cd needs really.
It’s complete nonsense hearing differences between a chip that already boasts specs way beyond human hearing needs.
Speakers are way more important and have a tremendous impact in a setup .
Michel Linschoten - Your assessment is based on digital sources where there’s less differences between one digital source to the next. Before digital came along, all we had was analog. With analog sources it’s a different story. Linn proved that the source was more important than the speakers back when analog was all we had. One turntable compared to another will make the same speakers sound radically different. That’s before adding in variables like tonearms, phono preamps and cartridges. Turntable, cassette and reel to reel all will make the same speakers sound different. Cassette played on a Fisher Price toy cassette player will make those same speakers sound awful. So, for those of us who still use analog sources, yes - the source quality is as if not more important than the speakers
I really agree with a lot of what was said here. In fact I'm upgrading my 20 year old (decidely mid-fi) system as follows. Now I loved the system when I got it. Simple 3 piece - CD player/Integrated amplifier/Speakers and it all matched perfectly. But my amplifier has deteriorated and my sound quality with it. The CD player is still pristine and of course there's nothing wrong with the speakers. And I really wasn't set up for digital, I'd been plugging in my ipod and later my phone and now my computer through an aux input. Also my theatre was a separate system completely but I've now decided to bring it all together and go with 2 channel for movies too. Putting it all together I have just bought a Marantz NR 1200 - partly based on your review but also after deep consideration of my needs. Its an integrated amp, its a network player, I can hook it up to the lan or use bluetooth and it has ARC so it will work with the TV. And while my CD player was an award winner in the 90s I have no doubt the Marantz will have a newer, better DAC. The plan is now to connect the CD player through its digital coax to the Marantz and bypass the old DAC entirely. I'm thrilled the Marantz will accept my turntable and I'm slightly bummed it doesn't have a tape out/monitor loop because I'm used to employing a graphic equalizer for room correction and I can't do that anymore. But we'll see how it goes. I'll be setting it up next weekend.
Just subscribed... Of all the YT channels treating audio/video stuff and arguments, your is the best by far.
Your way of thinking and speaking is flawless: no hype for high end non sense products, always the right indications for novice (this video is PERFECT in any single word) and, in the meantime, a lot of open mind suggestions for navigate audio enthusiasts.
Sincerely impressed.
Ciao from Italy and sorry for my not so good English. By the way, your English is so intelligible that this is the only channel I can watch without subtitles...
Truly appreciate your take on the topic , I agree a great sounding set of speakers will last years if taken care of and sound great to the owner no matter what new source comes in ,most of us don't sit with a chair in the middle of the room between speakers 6-8 ft from the wall , that in itself doesn't mean we don't appreciate nuances in our music , a good DAC or transport shouldn't have to cost more than your speakers to sound great .
You are most certainly correct on the importance of the room!
Speakers are always, always , always the mosxt important component. This has always been true, and will always be true.
no - the most important component is the room and the best speaker can do nothing when the source is bad
@@Harald_Reindl The room is why the speaker is the most important. Most people can't change out their rooms so that's just the fixed (apart from doing treatment) context for the system. The speaker is the part that directly interacts with the room, which makes that the most important step. I also think it's more important than the source since if we're looking at good gear (and there's little reason to look at bad gear) there are larger variations between good speakers than with good sources.
@@Evil_Peter every room can be treated in one or the other form and with an endless decay it don't matter at all which speakers you use! the source is in doubt nearly equal important than speakers - at least if you have neighbours and/pr want to hear muisc in your older age which means you need a good working dynamic loudness with a good rom-eq
but that's all worthless unless you optimize your room as much as you can, plants are good diffusors, acutsic pictuires are absorbers which a woman-acceptance-factor and so on - been the and got from 900 ms decay to 300 ms for most frequencies and 450 ms for the biggest room-mode
now with 43 the first time i hear music as it's meant to be - headphones don't work really because you miss the delayed and lower tone from the right speaker on the left ear and vice versa (besides they are uncomfotable)
75% of all my investments (avr, subwoofer, speaker, 65" TV) at the and where room optimization which wasn't even planned at all - and the room is even more beautiful than it was before
@@Harald_Reindl As I said, there is little point in talking about bad stuff and if your room is terrible then yes, anything will sound bad in it. As long as you have a room worth building a good system in, then I think you should start with the speakers as I prefer to work myself one way through the chain, which will inevitably be backwards given the room.
Limitations like neighbors can affect things but only for some people so I wouldn't put that into a general rule for building a system. It's just on a list of unfortunate compromises.
As for dynamic loudness I really don't like that and I find that it messes up the sound something fierce. Auto EQ can be good but with a good room you probably only need to use it for the low end, as that's the trickiest to get right.
Agree 1) room 2) speakers 3) source...... maybe something else ones ears and mind and the reason why I say this is some days I can’t get into my music and things don’t sound good to me.
There are some brilliant active speakers out there, the likes of: ATC, PMC, DYNAUDIO, FOCAL, GENELEC, ADAM, YAMAHA and others. These loudspeakers are not just used in the realm of professional audio. Some of them contain dac's for Bluetooth, USB, optical and coaxial connections so the source can be connected directly to them without the need for a separate amplifier and dac, which makes for a much more compact audio system.
I'm definitely team speakers. I have had several sources over the years - turntables, laserdisc, cassette players, DVD, Blu-ray, etc. but my speakers have outlast them all. I bought a set of B&W series 600 over 20 years ago and are still rocking. This said, if I could upgrade, I would go for the B&W Formation Duo as this is a speaker/component system that is aiming at the future of audio - at least for the next 10 years.
Source versus speakers- it's a debate that trudges on through time. Great job!
Catching up on your old videos. I am building a new HiFi system after having been without since the 90’s. My thinking is similar to yours & feel happy you reinforced my 1st purchase decision, Speakers. I bought 2nd hand, the last speakers I will likely ever own at my advanced age, the Klipsch Cornwall 3. Tube amp in the way. Bought an external DAC, because as you said, technology changes so fast, why buy a CD player (as an example) w/built in DAC that will be obsolete in 12-24 months. I vote buy your dream speakers, buy a $99 Schiit DAC & replace that in the future… Thanks for your guidance Sir!
I'll be doing a similar video soon comparing a Walmart CD Player $30 vs my Sony NS999ES CD Player $1200. Then comparing $40 speakers vs $140 speakers. Which will make a more noticeable improvement to sound quality? Thanks for the video. I love these topics and just being realistic.
Thank you!
I'm definitely in the speaker side. I have a pair of Bang and Olufsen Beovox CX100 that i got for cheap (even with refoamed mid/bass units) and they play really nice! i run them with a Denon AVR-1911 reciever wich is far from the best amplifier you could get for that setup. But i still think they sound as amazing as possible with my speaker placement and ears!
Thank you for this video and this discussion. After thirty years away I’m going to put a system back together. My only surviving equipment from my wasted youth is my Teac RTR and my Thorens and Pioneer turntables. I still have my vinyl collection. I’m sort of lost now and grateful for this channel. It’s not like the old days where I could go to a stereo store and listen to loudspeakers anymore. Please don’t throw rocks at me but, as a very young man, I was the envy of my friends because my music room was set up with a double set of Bose 901 Series IV’s. I read that everyone hates Bose loudspeakers now and probably with good reason. At my age and having finished a career punctuated by gunfire, much of my listening comes directly through my digital hearing aids from my iPhone. I am a musician still and love music. I’m looking forward to any wisdom I can gain from this channel now after stumbling across it and subscribing.
Thanks to all
Bob
I have heard arguments for either side of this topic. The problem with this discussion is the premise that the solution is one or the other. Its not always that simple. To illustrate what I mean I arrived at the above conclusion when I last upgraded my system.
My previous system was a compromise - I had a pair of great sounding speakers and a mediocre integrated amp. When I went to upgrade I went with "get the best speakers you can afford and work back to the source". I listened to various stand mount speakers through whatever amp the dealer had on the stand. That got me listening to some really fine amplifiers. I finally chose a speaker that I liked, one that did rock, blues, Celtic/folk really well so I asked if I could try them at home.
I was shocked at how flat they sounded on my amplifier so I asked if I could bring my speakers in to listen to them with one of the amplifiers I auditioned previously. I was absolutely stunned at what I heard from my existing speakers (B&W CM5 S2).
Talk about being blown away!!! In addition to a tight well controlled bass the mid to upper ranges had more detail and depth. I suddenly heard a sound stage that I hadn't heard before. Then I asked if I could hear them with a pair of entry level B&W sub woofers. I had discovered the system components that I had been looking for.
To summarize, if you just attack the source and the speakers without having a quality amplifier you'll never hear what you have. Balance is the key!
PS. In case you are interested, the previous amp was a Rotel ra-1572 and the new one is a Simaudio Moon 340i. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that an integrated that costs 2.5 - 3.0 times as much makes a huge difference!!!
Speakers, by far, are the most important part of your audio train. They are the physical medium that directly interacts with your ears. The electronics hardly matter at all in today's audiophile world.
I can hook up a boom-box to drive a good pair of speakers and they can still sound decent. Most likely, MUCH better than the boom-box speakers. Hook up your high-end electronics to drive a pair of boom-box speakers, chances are it's still going to sound like boom-box speakers.
Yet, there is a feel in good audio, like cristalline punch at low volume, and if the speaker needs to be good, it can't show that low volume punchy clarity and separation if there isn't decent amplification behind to bring that to the speakers.
Room dimensions and proximity to objects being #1 Is a wise point. Thanks for mentioning that. I look forward to that video.
Very well done, I especially liked the part where you talked about the future, as in streaming taking over even CDs and someone who spent thousands on a CD player would regret it now or in the near future.
Great video Andrew! The Speaker technology today is truly amazing ; I recently listened to a pair of Magnepan LRS’s ($800can) driven by the entry level Hegel H90($2000can) ...totally blown away by how good these are ! The Hegel does everything too( built in Dac ,headphone jack and streamer )
I truly enjoy your videos and have them playing in the background as I work from home. Great content and explanation while taking a different more mellow approach to the typical high energy fast paced home media UA-cam videos. Excellent work!
Awesome, thank you!
same here
My number one rule is to think of the room/speaker interface as one. Some investigation and understanding of acoustics is necessary. Do the speakers need to be placed at least three feet from the back wall to prevent bass overload, or are they designed to be placed closer to the wall. Is there going to be a large reflective TV screen between the speakers that will cause first order reflections? If so consider bipolar speakers. If the back wall to your listening position is very close consider some sort of acoustic panels.
I like what you said at beginning, if people understood room acoustics first as common knowledge , I think a lot less money would be spent on equipment, it’s as important as A1 with steak
Shoot... after watching this video I'm stuck going forward now ..... Wanted to upgrade my old pioneer elite vsx-82 that powers my elac uni-fi uf5 to a big upgrade, was looking at getting yamaha a6a and an 7ch amp that does 180W all chenel driven or even going the separates way.... this video was in 2019 and you spoke about wifi and self powered speakers. Now ,should I just go buy on what I was planning to get or just get speakers that have self amplification?? 🤔
I subscribe to the theory of walking up the path of sound from your ears to the electrical signal generating it... room / speakers / amp / pre / source. Also I find that the weakest link of the chain limits the overall sound. Example: you can have the most resolving dac but if you have un resolving loudspeakers you just loose the benefits of the dac.
Very interesting video!!!
Keep up the great work!!
The biggest impact is room. But, for digital sources, second biggest is almost a equal split between DAC implenetation & speakers. A cheap transport and integrated amp (as long as it has the headroom and clean watts) should be fine. A 1000 dollar amp and a 50,000 dollar amp is going to make very little of a difference (Completely diminished returns)...
Prior to see all you video I have to say that for me the source is more important, and when I said the souse I am assuming that the mastering of the recording has a lot of impact and is included in the source. I have a budget system and I it took my attention how big in the sound quality difference with the same amplifier and speakers when you play different sources.
Obviously the recording and mastering varies. You only need to watch UA-cam to have that starkly demonstrated.
Speakers are where it's at-- Buy used! I have 6 sets of ( main) speakers, 4 of them high end-- all of them used for a fraction of the original price. I bought a pair of $4,000. Castle Winchesters (8K today) in absolute immaculate condition for $400. A pair of JBL studio monitors again in mint condition for $100. There are a number of fantastic deals I have had to turn down... nowhere to put them and a wife running out of patience.
How do you get such deals?
@@mehtasid They find you!
I consider the question itself debatable. There is a massive difference in the spectrum of sources versus speakers. The speaker is exclusively a transducer that converts electrical energy into air pressure variation. A source can be digital to analogue conversion, analogue signal manipulation, digital processing or a transducer, in the case of a turntable, converting mechanical movements into an electrical signal. Transducer design and implementation is much more complex than electronics, and analogue electronics more complex than digital.
I have my own views and personal preferences regarding Hi Fi and being an audiophile in the modern age.
Firstly I agree that the room is the most important and biggest factor to get right. It’s the one thing that will massively affect how your gear sounds. Much more than anything else.
Next sources. Personally I think that in today’s age a DAC is a DAC. I’ve compared various DACs back to back, side by side in the same system and level matched. There is zero difference between them.
Turntables, to a degree are important. However I don’t believe it is necessary to spend a lot of money on one to get a real hi fi experience from vinyl. Avoid the cheapest and nastiest ones, but even the most budget of decks from the likes of Pro-Ject as an example are absolutely brilliant with the sound they can produce.
Speakers are probably the one part of the electronic chain which will make the biggest difference to what you hear. Saying that the differences between price points are not as big as what the hit to your wallet is. I honestly think that a 1000 dollars pair of speakers set up as well as possible should be all that anyone will ever need, to listen to recorded media in the home.
Streaming and the future of hi fi. Well one of the things I love about hi fi in it’s traditional form is it’s lack of software. No operating system to be constantly updated, no bugs, no manufacturers forced life spans due to obsoletion with unsupported software etc...
Sometimes I really like putting on a CD, no need for internet, no need to wait on anything booting up, or updating, no scrolling on a screen. Just press play and that’s it. The same with vinyl, it’s a connection to your music collection without the interference of the electronic web connected world.
One of my biggest gripes with streaming from a phone is the music interruption for a text, or a social media notification. Going off on a light tangent here, but... My digital music library user interface has been spoiled by Apple with OS Catalina. It’s worse IMO not better and it’s full of bugs. My old iPod touch has been made incompatible with it. I don’t want to use a streaming service when I own a massive music library. Yes I like making my own playlists from my own digital library, but I wish there weren’t always changes to user interfaces for changes sake, with OS updates.
The vision of the future with a smart display and a pair of speakers, with a wireless turntable (all of which is here already as you said) is exactly what I will make damn sure I avoid for as long as possible. Software and internet driven hi fi, with an analogue source being converted to digital and then back to analogue, for what? To save on a couple of wires and a pre amp?
An amplifier driving a pair of speakers with a turntable, a dedicated CD Player (they are by far the nicest user interface to play CDs), a Blu-ray & SACD Player and my network streamer for my personal music library are all I will ever need.
My Pioneer N50 network player/DAC is as far as I will go with getting up to date with the modern age of music playback. As I said earlier, Apple have made that experience more fiddly and harder for me to enjoy to some extent.
Good old fashioned hi fi disconnected from the World Wide Web with no software is where it’s staying for me. As the bugs gradually get ironed out of Catalina and Apple Music, I may never update my iMac or latest iPod Touch again. If it works leave it alone.
Yes I still use an iPod in 2019.
Thanks for taking the time and answering my question from the last video!
Thank you for commenting.
Funny... I was just talking to someone today while trailing in the woods and we got on the subject. My opinion is the same for computers. Speakers first (Monitors for computers) as they change or should change the least once you've found a sound signature that you like. Then setting up the placement of said speakers and then room treatment till those said speakers sound their best. Then changing your source to fit as you'll actually hear the change where other variables may come into play if you do it in reverse and you may keep chasing a sound that ultimately too many variables exist.
(ignoring the recording itself, room and listening position) I got advice from a salesman years ago when I was comparing cerwin vega (AT series) in a store compared to more typical budget hifi speakers. For a cd based system he said forget the standard 'garbage in garbage out' and work backwards: try different speakers and select the ones you 'like the overall presentation of', get a competent amp that will drive them as loud as you need and then just get a modest CD player and you will be 95% the way there. I think the lesson there was that its barely worth fussing over cd (digital) source when the speakers are what you really need to get right as differences between them can be very significant.
Great topic! Great perspective. I appreciate that you have a point of view but are diplomatic. Here's to you good sir!
Thank you!!!
Great video. A lot to think about.
In the coming future described, phone + wireless speakers :
1 ° Will my brand new (wired) speakers be compatible with this paradigm ?
2° What will become a company such as Yamaha ? Selling cellphones and speakers ?
3° When can we expect to have a fully 5.1.2 (or more) wireless ? Given that even KEF LSX speakers are still not really wireless. What will send the signal, the TV ?
Just here to learn and your an absolute pleasure to listen to even if you ramble. I'm just a guy who has what he has cause he wandered into it. After 10 years I finally got around to calibrating my 7.2.1 theatre system because I finally had the time to make some time. I was blown away by how good it sounded, when my original thinking was that, in order to make this sound better I need to throw more money at it ....lol. Then it opened eyes ( or ears ) , to what else is possible ? So here I am willing to listen and learn !!
I really think everything is important but you are right the speakers are the key. I'm a big advocate for powered speakers for an entry level system. The fun after i chose my speakers was to optimize. a dac, ifi ipower, good interconnects, good power cables. I loved it so much that i kept it till this day.
It's only today with a more conftable situation that i'm contemplating making a better system because there is always something better :(
Finding the speakers too bright? Because online reviewers keep recommending these super bright speakers which frankly if you listen to them, it's grating. But we can't listen test speakers anymore.
I’m down to a tv, turntable, AVR and speakers. I use to have a rack full of stuff. Back in the day every connection on the back of my AVR was full. These days my Marantz has almost all the ports not in use just and they are a waste of space. At some point I would expect the AVR to be really dumbed down to just EARC and maybe an aux input that can toggle to a phono setup, which is how a lot of powered speaker setups are moving to these days. So yeah I think your thoughts on the future of audio is right in the money!
What about room acoustics?
I am not into streaming or separate dacs...although I do have a dac in my JVC 5 dish cd player...I have fluance RT-85 TT and a pioneer SX-780 and a Kenwood KA-5500 ...into B&W Dm6 speakers...to me all things in the line are important .Speakers are the most important as they are what you hear in the end..
In my opinion your system will always sound like your speakers. Components will change the sound to one degree or another but you are always listening to them through your speakers.
"before you put money in harms way" - that should be in every financial advisors vocabulary. Honestly, this format is great and would be great content to repurpose as a podcast (yea I said the dreaded 'P' word).
Every TV (digital) has a DAC inside. Not just sometimes. Anyway, I would love a transport vs DAC video.
Isn’t it all relative? My room (attick) is far from ideal (according to ‘standards’) and it will never be. It did not stop me from investing in equipment and enjoying listening to music. Should I have said ‘the room will never be ideal’ and therefore I settle for cheap speakers, receiver etc.? No way. What I have now sounds far better than what I had and I am very happy with it. Thats all that counts for me.
i would have say loudspeaker all the way maybe 3 or 4 years ago, now the most bliss i have found are in sources but for you to really appreciate that loudspeakers must sound right and that's not easy to know if you're starting out in hi-fi hobby it will take you time and knowlegde to see sources differences rather than loudspeakers. By the way good thoughts its not easy to explain something so subjective.
I agree with you that speakers are more important in the spirit of audiophile. I'm a classical trained musician but I have an eclectic taste, I have been in a rock band, play Jazz etc. I believe when it comes to music system component, it really is generation dependent. I have a pair of Spendor, driven by Plinius 8200 integrated, with Esoteric A50 CD/SACD player(use it as DAC as well) for work I have no choice but to buy a bluetooth speaker, the stuff kids are listening to today(I'm 42), let's say in the pop culture, most of the recordings are produced with a highly compressed, super clear digital sound. Bluetooth speakers around $500 sound pretty good with those type of music! You take away Classical, Jazz and some World music which I think these are the genres where sound engineers really take on the challenge of perfecting the art of micing, the angles of the microphones, and distance. All these hard works can be heard on some rock and pop albums as well, but the digitised sound today kind of loses the characteristic aspect, for example a particular guitar sound can be now standardised, with computer software the same guitar sound EQ and compressed the same way can be easily transplanted to another recording. We hear people talk about the legends, just a first few seconds, you can tell it's played by Jimi Page or Keith Richard, because these artists organically came up with that sound, so in comparison to the pop culture now it really is a tricky one. One thing for sure, a pair of good speakers will deepen one's musical experience, I have gone a full circle of upgrading and changing components over the years, music is still the most important thing, I agree about saving up for something made by the hi fi specialists(even if it's just entry level), also each company tune their sound based on a certain belief, a lot of auditioning is definitely recommended, some brands sound better on certain music, so it does boil down to taste. Really enjoy your reviews, it will be great if you could talk about what music you listen to when you talk about a certain component, it doesn't matter if it's a personal preference. Like I found your channel because I was thinking about auditioning JBL L100, if you talk about music, with a particular track or album, then it makes your description more imaginable.
For digital, Speakers. For Analog, about equal.
For Vinyl theres a lot of issues and disappointment that can occur if the source isnt up to snuff. Mainly thinking of cartridges here, a low end stylus can distort a lot which may be a big turn off for some, and it wont be solved with any amount of speaker expenditure. It also causes more wear on the records themselves so getting a great performing cart and stylus is top priority for me as a Vinyl fan and its what I recommend beginners focus on too, safer in the long run. The Media itself also matters more in vinyl, as there are a lot of terrible pressings vs the better ones and getting one versus the other can be pretty night and day independent of system, and again a gentle playback device will make those expensive pressings wear less and play cleaner.
@@ranbymonkeys2384 A lot of it depends on the mastering, you cant make an equal comparison like this. There are CDs that sound worse than vinyl too, not just subjectively either, but statistically, with worse dynamics, etc.
@@ranbymonkeys2384 Did I say you said it was equal? No, so chill out dude, damn, you must be the defensive of the family.
And I guess you just have a collection full of bad vinyl then.
@@ranbymonkeys2384 It sounds like the only one pissed here is you.
If none of your records sound better than all digital then Im sorry, you either have badly mastered records or possibly your Grado cart is too muffled because a lot of them are.
@@ranbymonkeys2384 The irony is stunning.
Everything in the chain matters, a weak link anywhere will affect your your sound quality. Transports certainly matter also, I found the Cambridge CXC to sound better than an Audiolab CDT6000 and older TOTL JVC. It's not just 1's and 0's despite being digital, lots out there to read up on this topic. Do your research and get the best you can afford. Not all products with good reviews have the best sound, best to try as much as you can with your own ears if you want exceedingly good sound.
I totally agree with you about the room being an important part of the system. I was thinking about upgrading speakers, and after adding some foam acoustic panels I changed my mind. I thought I had pretty good acoustics in my room already, then I added some rather inexpensive foam tiles from Amazon. That turned out to be the system upgrade for me! Thanks for another great video Andrew.
Yup and you can also DIY absorber panels quite easily in various ways from stuff like insulation batts and some frames out of wood or aluminium, and cover that in fabric. The ideal is probably something like 4 inches thick, or 2 inches thick with a 2 inch air gap, which can look intrusive in a room.
@@cr0ft-2k Thanks much for the reply!
I agree that there are many variables in listening to your music. I believe that we grow into what we determine as quality sound. Growing up we used to listen to music from drive-n-movie theater loudspeakers, and we thought that was cool until we heard better quality speakers. The listening platform is going to continue to change, as you pointed out. My theory is to build a system that helps you get your grove on.
My question is based on your opinion about the room being the most important thing to get right, how does one begin to treat a room for a system that either is yet constructed? And in an existing room, how does one determine between absorption, diffusion, traps, etc., especially if you're not and audio engineer? I honestly feel like my room is the most intimidating part this hobby, as I've heard it said that until you treat the room, you really haven't heard your system.
isaacsykes3 Subscribe to the Acoustic Fields channel here and hit their website.
Synergistic Research is an excellent source of of passive devices for treating rooms. You can consult with them to determine what you might need. And I think all their dealers offer money-back satisfaction guarantees so you can experiment to see what works and what doesn't. An acquaintance who owns a high-end system ordered a number of the HFTs to hear what they would do in his small living room. We were both amazed how these little gizmos made the speakers disappear and his room sound like the soundstage was double in size!
@@LorenzoNW Thank you.
Today:
Digital = no difference
Electronics = (almost) no difference
Conversion to sound pressure = huge difference
If you don’t agree you either are an esoteric or you really should do your physics homework. Period.
Ok, I’m an esoteric then
As with every comments section there are always those who chime in with some of the most unlikely scenarios and base their ideas and suggestions around situations that may exist but are rare at best. For most people, most of the time the two most important things in their system will be speakers and source material. Period. Speakers are the ultimate arbiter of your sound. The vast majority of people in this country (not true all over the world, I understand) live within a couple or three hours of a dealer with the most common and affordable gear they could get a great demo from. Most everyone else can buy from a reputable online retailer that will refund your money if you're not happy with your purchase. So there's no reason to pretend anyone has to buy blind and live with the result for the rest of their lives. Anyway, find your sound and anything you add along the way will only serve to enhance it. But buy some speaker you were told should be great but doesn't suit you and you will never find a source, DAC or amplifier to magically turn them into your preferred speakers. Source material is the other big elephant in the room. If you pump water into your twelve hundred horsepower supercar's gas tank how do you think it's going to perform? Exactly. Your average Toyota Corolla will then outrun it. You have to feed your system with the best source material/recording you can get if you want the best performance from it. As far as the room goes. Well, let's be honest. Most people do not have the space or budget to dedicate an entire room to audio. The stereo is part of a family area or other shared space. I'm not married and have no one around to gripe about room treatments but I'm not going to waste space on corner traps or sully the walls with diffusers and such. I have an area rug, both cloth and leather furniture and smaller speakers that are easier to place in a more advantageous position. I prefer larger speakers and perhaps one day will move to a space where larger speakers would work better but for now I am happy. SO, a good video might be to advise people on how to make the most of their spaces when compromise of one form or another is necessary.
I second this about necessary compromises. My stuff is in a family room where any but the most basic form of treatments like rugs or curtains are off the table.
Hello
New to the channel. Discovered it as was researching various pieces of equipment. In my experience speakers are most important. I bought my first set of speakers 20,years ago and they are still going strong. I am only now getting around to upgrade them. Anytime I change the components it’s like they get new life. The technology may change sources over time but speakers are relatively stable by comparison.
I'm new to this so perhaps I don't understand but don't all the sources go the amplifier (in my case an A/V amplifier by Denon) and then the amplifier wires go to the speakers. Isn't the amplifier critical? If you an OPPO Blu-ray player but it's going to the amplifier, then the sound that goes to the speakers will be impacted by the amplifier as well. Perhaps the types of connections between the blu-ray player and the amplifier are critical as well (e.g. HDMI vs optical or coxial)?
Your system is only as good as its weakest link. If you have excellent speakers & a crappy amplifier. Your speakers will accurately reproduce the crappy sound fed to them. If you have an excellent amplifier & crappy speakers. Your speakers will not be able to recreate the excellent sound sent to them and will sound as crappy as they are.
what a sensible outlook . excellent advice
Appreciate you watching!
Speaker cables colour the source as do power cables. I will and can confirm that a cd sounds inherently better than a streaming source. Timing is everything when reading the ones and zeros. A good cd transport that feeds a good dac will sound better than a dac that streams. The older SONY CD players still fetch a premium on the net. Built like tanks, premium parts, wonderful as a stand alone CD player with the dac chips inside and super just as a transport.
There are lots of factors that help make your speakers shine. You are correct with how your room is. Also speaker positioning is so important.
You could have a 30k system and if it’s not set up right it will sound truly awful. Over the years I have got to understand how and what effects the sound. What works in the chain from the plug socket to the speaker.
The way of thinking over the past few years is to extract every inch of sound out of the source and to my mind and listening, it sounds truly horrendous. It’s very much in your face and doesn’t sound as it was intended. Call it what you will, digital glare, open, resolving, whatever. You can keep it.
Tubes in my dac and amplifier. Now that’s another story....
I’m building a system from scratch. I’m damn near sixty and just caught the audio bug.
So I’m learning quickly that speakers are important but where the sound comes from really matters. Just found quite by accident a pioneer reel to reel and it sounds great.
Was sourcing from marantz 2270 and picked up concept 7.5 and a concept 11.0. In my opinion they perform for me better. With the same speakers I’ve been using. A pair of klipsch heresy paired with audio nirvana fifteen inch full range. Soon to put in line a Mitsubishi DA-A10 to see what it does. Hopefully improve sound..we’ll see
Thanks a lot for the video Andrew. Was about to rush into a decision, but with what you said, I think I will need to mull over the future of hifi and what’s truly important before committing to a decision. Subscribed too by the way.
Good video! I’m going to go in a slightly different direction, but it’s relevant because you spent a lot of time talking about it in this video. I’m going to come down in favor of Team Separates. And here’s why: It’s not that you can’t get great sound out of systems like you’re describing. I think you can. But I think the nature of the hobby for some of us is... “fiddling” for lack of a better term. For instance, the phono preamp in my receiver seems perfectly adequate. But I long to hear what another preamp might do to the sound. So, ultimately, I’d be better off with a phono preamp that I don’t have to circumvent some time in the future. Your point is well taken that an integrated amplifier with preamp outs give you some options as to how you prioritize upgrading. But I suspect if the owner gets really into it, s/he will probably end up with a separate preamp. That’s what I don’t like about active speakers. It takes too much of the choice away for me AND it saddles me with a component that I’ll eventually dispose of in some fashion. Certain customers will be fine living with an all-in-one solution, but if you really get into the HOBBY aspect, I think separates in as many separate boxes as you can afford are the best way too go... for now anyways.
I hear you Andrew and what you say is all true but how do you know this, by experience and owning a lot of speakers and sources. But isn't that half the fun finding out for your self what works and what doesn't. I know nothing about this hobby but all hobbies are the same. Most of the enjoyment comes from the journey. I enjoy watching you videos and learning, keep it up mate
These are great points, and one thing to always keep in mind is the difference between stats and the human ear. The move to digital sources was massive, because the human ear can't distinguish between super high-end digital sources and moderately priced digital sources. If one source can produce a s/n ratio of 110 and another of 130, what diff? Your ears simply cannot detect any difference. So this move to digital sources has very effectively unified the quality of sound generation. It mattered a LOT more when everyone had turntables and tape decks.
Today, I'd say speaker selection is clearly more important, and with today's technology, just easier to avoid going wrong. As an example, you can buy a pair of Polk Audio Signature Elite ES60 speakers for under $900 during their sales, and these are fantastic performers. The move from analog to digital sources was a very, very fast leap forward, while speaker technology is slower to advance...but it is clearly advancing.
You need to have a GOOD source. But once you get into 44.1 territory, nothing above that makes a discernible difference to me. Even Spotify Premium sounds pretty dang good. Put the money into the thing that reproduces the media - a good amp and speaker/headphone always comes first for me.
Forgive my noobness but what is 44.1?
@@UA-camAIbot 44.1 kHz, the sampling frequency of CDs, and I imagine with 16 encoding bits
Speakers for AV are like lenses in photography... they will usually outlive the electronics (Sources/Transports/DACs/Amplifiers or Cameras) and still work great, even with newer electronic devices!
I would put my money 65:25:10 in speakers:electronics:everything else (cables, room treatment etc.).
Love your channel ❤️
Interesting question about did we choose the wrong speakers. Perhaps but i think it's part of the journey. We started out in our teens with minimal spending power and without the sophistication that develops for what pleases us. Spending power increases and we acquire the speakers that are in line with the sound we are looking for.
Spend the most money on a great air purifier because the sound waves travel through space interacting with air. The cleaner the air, the better the sound in your ear. This will be the next best thing for audiophiles who want to get that extra 0.0000004 percent out of their system.
I want what your smoking?
LOL 😂
The quality of music recording matters a bit.
After that, the speakers/room. When if the music is in lower quality or not great recording, I prefer to hear it on better speakers.
More than a bit, the recording quality is HUGE. If you start with a turd, the most expensive amps and speakers in the world will still make it sound like a turd.
Absolutely agree. Example of a poor recording is "love ain't no stranger" by Whitesnake. I love the song, but until I got my system, I never knew how flat the recording sounded. It doesn't really have much soundstage even off Tidal 24 bit. The highs don't have much detail either. Other recordings have a lot of depth in my system, and drum skins and symbols have that pop even at 16 bit.
In my experience I agree speakers over source. Especially if you'll mostly be streaming. Many phones have decents DACs now too and will only get better. The quad DAC in LG V20, V30, V40, V50, G7 ThinQ beats many $100 - $250 DACs on the market. Plug the phone into a decent amp and some good speakers, can be pretty impressive
I wish your vocals were centered in the stereo image. Its cool if you want to sit on my right shoulder but my laptop is in front of me.
Hah funny response. I'm on my phone so I'm basically listening in mono.
@@mercurialmagictrees Its totally not an issue unless you are into listening to things with nice audio equipment.... BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE CHANNEL IS ABOUT!
Just kidding with the insane person tone, its actually not a big deal at all.
1 coaxial way vs 2 way vs 3 way vs 4 way speakers. The more the better for high frequency or clarity?
You make the case for systems of the future going from phone to hifi player/amp/receiver to speakers but if you are connecting to your hifi system via your phone's bluetooth connection (vs a hifi player that can connect to internet directly) then isn't that going to downgrade the audio performance?
If the room is most important...do you have videos on figuring out the room?
I've been in this hobby a long time it's always been a given that the source we'll have a more significant role in fidelity of your stereo system
For instance if you buy a higher res CD or record your stereo will sound better your speaker cannot create music that's the source's job. Are higher end source reproduced by a lesser speaker will get the most out of the speaker but a high end speaker playing Lo-Fi music will still be Lo-Fi.
The source (analog or digital), then the room configuration, the speakers, preamp/dac, amps, cables.,power supply...in that order. But, foremost is the passion for music reproduction.
This is the best piece of advice I ever encountered in my 35 years as an audiophile! It should be added to the 'audio Bible' and be required reading for anyone who wants to know what this hobby is all about.
Love the sarcasm baby👍 It is sarcasm right. Yeah has to be....👀
@@EddyTeetree Sorry to disapoint you but I am serious as I can be. But if you are of another opinion, that's ok too. We are different people with different tastes and experiences, so our opinions might diverge also.
I think you nailed it earlier in the video. I’m paraphrasing but I think you mean the entire signal chain matters. Bad source and good speakers will sound bad. Good source and bad speakers will sound bad. When we start getting into DACs I think we’re splitting hairs at that point.
#1 Proper speaker placement in the room
#2 Speakers
#3 Proper amp that can drive the speakers
#4 DAC / Vinyl rig
dennem why not a proper amp and then climb the speaker ladder to scale.... if you have a great amp, most speakers will sound great. I shudder at the thought of someone spending 2 grand on speakers and then powering them with a $200 receiver. If the question is “where is it best to invest when starting out?” Then why not start with the heartbeat of a system. Think about how good $500 speakers are now a days and how bad most $500 amplifiers perform...
My $299 Crown kicks ass so...
Rick Bradshaw I think $500 stereo amps are pretty good today, but they won’t drive any speaker, so proper matching is needed. A $500 amp with $1500 speakers will sound better than a $1500 amp with $500 speakers, so that’s why I put speakers above amplification.
dennem that’s true
@@audiofun999 well, maybe... pick a $1500 speaker and try matching it with a $500 amplifier. It's not that easy, especially, if you don't know what you're doing... Like A Dynaudio Evoke 10 at 84 db sensitivity and a 6 ohm impedance.... Unless you go with a pro amp, you're not going to be able to power them properly with an off the shelf integrated at the $500 price point. I would dare to argue that a more modest speaker is designed for more modest amplification.
My "traditional" hierarchy (analogue source and class AB amp) would be that the source is most important, followed by the amp, followed by the speakers. These days (digital source and class D amp) I would amend that order to the DAC being most important, followed by the speaker, followed by the amp, as I've heard £10 Chinese class D amps off eBay which wipe the floor with old AB amps from Technics, Sony etc. The reason I deem speakers to be relatively unimportant, specifically at the entry level, is that good electronics can make truly dreadful speakers sound really good
I couldn't find the speakers that I liked so I built them
It is always the source, the music.
Kraftwerk plays different than Stravinsky.
This. The better my speakers, the bigger the difference between well mastered albums and bad ones. I'm starting to dislike someone of my lifelong favorites because they no longer sound good to me.
I consider the DAC to be more important than the digital medium, as while the digital source might change the sound a bit, the DAC is the device that makes it into music. It seems the differences between individual DACs can be wildly different both in quality and sound coloration. A great DAC will make your speakers sound their best, a poor one will be revealed by those same speakers. I believe that it is better to have a DAC that is the best part of your system as everything else in it will sound the best according to their limits.
Yes, I concur. The 'old' days of HiFi it used to be the case of split any proposed budget equally for each component plus about 10% for cables and interconnects. These days I advise people that the biggest investment that they can make is time, reading and listening to as much as they can before buying and then go to the shows just to have a look. They will then know if they want to get involved in the hobby or not or do they just want a bit of background music. I then tell people (when asked) to spend the most on the amp and speakers and then add to this, simply because digital is so ubiquitous and that sources are changing s much. I've even discouraged some younger adults from getting into vinyl and led them to high quality streaming first.
Maybe I'm wrong but digital streaming and DACS are getting so good that I feel that this is the place to start when it comes to sources thus if your speakers and amplifier will last you 'ages' if invested in wisely and will still be there as sources advance and change.
Paul Leonard I think speakers sub $1000 have improved greatly in the past five years as well. I’d say spend the most on amplification, budget dac and then mid tier speakers...
Thank You for this channel. Very informative, balanced, and transparent. Your command of the English language is a thing of scholars. Your knowledge of stereo hardware is awesome. Recovering audiophile LOL love it! Again...Thank You. Cheers! V/r,
I am in the speaker and source are equal camp. I think people should start with speaker first, listen to variety at several different price points and choose the one that suits to your tastes and interacts well with your listening room. Then play around with the electronics that will feed them. Synergy is the most important element of all, for me. All too often, I hear a great pair of highly resolving speakers faithfully reproducing the shortcomings of the electronics within the signal chain, or room. It leaves me wondering, if the person went down a notch or two on the speaker side and invested a little more in their turntable, media player, or treatments, if the result would be a fuller more engaging sound. I also have observed that you can get a lot out of speakers these days. Numerous times I have heard a $650.00 pair of speakers being fed by a $2000 integrated and went WOW! Not that I would recommend this approach, but still it gives one pause. If such a set up provides the musical truth you are looking for, why not?
Nice job! One of your best videos. Very well spoken.
I realize this video is a year old, but I'm hoping to get some advice andrew. I just got into vinyl, bought this pro ject RPM1 player a couple of weeks ago and i love it. I want to get a new phono stage at some point, currently using the built in on my marantz sr6012. What would you recommend for below $500. I find i really love the sound of vinyl, but would like some more detail and clarity if possible. I just want to get whatever i can out of my LPs but I'm unsure what to actually get.
Funny about the DAC, I recently revived my love of hifi by buying a wireless DAC for $100 from danish brand Argon, with a ESS Sabre chip. My 20 year old AV reciever now sounds better than anything I heard back then when I got it. Literally. Which also means - who knew my poor 15 year old B&W 685 could sound that good?
Hey Andrew, great Series, a Episode about Room acoustics would be realy nice
Greetings from Austria
What do you mean on this channel?