HIGH END AUDIO vs BUDGET GEAR! The Law of Diminishing Returns in Hi-Fi
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- HIGH END AUDIO vs BUDGET GEAR! The Law of Diminishing Returns in Hi-Fi
A viewer wrote in and asked at what price points do I think the law of diminishing returns takes hold when discussing audiophile and home theater components? I do my best to break this question down by category, as well as share THREE BIG FACTORS that contribute to you experiencing diminishing returns in your own system.
Loudspeakers are a great example. I've encountered numerous $500 bookshelf speakers that are as good if not better than $1500-2500 speakers. Of course, the opposite is always true but that fact is that there are a lot of brands that punch well above their price bracket leaving you to spend 1000s more for a real noticeable improvement. So you have to ask yourself, how much is going from 90% as good to 100%? How much is that last 10% worth to you?
The 3 Biggest Factors that contribute to the law of diminishing returns of your own audio system.
1. Personal taste
2. Your listening space
3. Age
Remember the only person that has to like the sound of your system is YOU.
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Andrew you hit it right on the head at the end. I am 80 years old and love my vinyl on my old technics table. No use to upgrade as my hearing aids can't tell the difference. I am happy with what I have and as you say I only have to please myself. LOL
You hit the nail. Some young folks should listen to your advice "Please your self"
I'm 64 y/o. I've been an audiophile since the '70s. I don't want to think of the money I've spent over the years chasing hi-fi sound (mostly tube stuff). Now with a super inexpensive and efficient Crown XLS 1502/ Emotiva PT-100/ Polk RTi /SVS 2.1 system (in a treated room), I get FANTASTIC sound reproduction. Are my ears as good as when younger? No. Is the sound still fantastic? Yes! This is truly the golden age of hi-fi. I would have done backflips to get this level of sound quality, at these prices, years ago. I can't get over how good solid-state has gotten in the last twenty years.
i was expecting Polk LSi line, but yeah.
How dare you have a common sense audiophile discussion! Love the transport comment! Go Andrew!
You obviously never heard vintage stuff. You talk rubbish
“Audiophile discussion...” not when a receiver is spoken to.
Whilst upgrading a DAC gives more of an improvement I've heard transports compared to different cd players/cheaper transports and there is an improvement. However most failed to beat Spotify by much and tidal masters completely outclassed anything CD related. The CD player is gathering dust.
@@NominalTopic I have to agree on that one. Using a receiver instead of a dedicated stereo amp for music is a big mistake. Even my 30 year old Sony amp outclassed any receiver I've tried. The difference between using a 400 pound pioneer AV receiver and a 400 pound musical fidelity 15 year old amp is night and day and there is less difference between that and the 30 year old Sony amp than the receiver and the Sony! Musicality is not good on AV. Lose out almost everywhere especially detail. Bass is over boosted too in order to sound good with films.
@@spinachhandsjklolsmh9053 small brain = hears differences in transports. xD xD xD
Also in wires. You spend your money on placebo effects, audiophile manufacturers globally love you.
As you said. "If it sounds good to you, that's all that should matter". Never buy to impress.
Could you please do a video on the "Law of my diminishing wallet"?
LOL'ing. Already severely diminished. But my lottery winnings and check from that guy somewhere in Africa should be here any day now. He promised. I know that he wouldn't lie. Would he?
The irony of audiophiles-
Music being recorded with mediocre equipment being listened to on ridiculously expensive equipment.
Add that to the fact that reproduction is always an approximation. So one gets 50% of live sound for 1000, and 52% of live sound for 100,000 :) A fool and his money will be parted.
Yep, like that Michael Fremer moron who thinks $30k cables (yes, not a typo!) will make a difference
@@quantumdecoherence1289 well, I think he knows it doesn't make a difference ;)
@@quantumdecoherence1289 30 K on cables? Imagine how much these people would spend on a personal trainer or dietician in an attempt to add a few years to their lives - so they could listen to more music using expensive cables.....
@@quantumdecoherence1289 the thing is Michael Fremmer will show you they do make a difference. Now is it worth it to me to spend that. No, but the dude has money and that's what he likes. I don't have a problem with that.
The system I had built between 1974-1980 would cost me about $12,000 today. I didn’t have all of the responsibility I have today, which means I can’t afford to spend that on a system. Today I have about $2000 in my system and it gives me pretty good sound. I listen to music not the equipment.
The first CD players were really expensive. and in the 70's and early 80's you might have had a reel to reel tape
Agree, it's the music that is the most important.
45 years ago, or thereabouts, I bought my first real hifi system. Quad 33/303, Michelle Focus 1 with SME3009 and a pair of Kef Concerto's. Over the next 25 years various components were changed and "upgraded". Not really sure if they were truly upgraded or I just bought into the latest blurb at the time. Now I am 66 years old, living abroad where good hifi is hard to come by, small room sizes and one ear that only works at about 10% efficiency have made me seriously change my listening habits. I now have a custom built laptop computer with a good DAC and a pair of Audioengine 2+ speakers. A big change for me, but what I have discovered is that I really enjoy the sound of this meager set-up. It certainly is not the best in terms of hifi systems but it is enjoyable enough that I listen every day and I am listening to Bach, Diana Krall, John Coltrane, The Beatles, Creedance Clearwater, Fleetwood Mac, Simon & Garfunkel, Emmylou Harris, Willie Nelson and a whole lot more. What I discovered was something I wish I had learned many years ago was this, ignore the cost, ignore other peoples opinions, ignore fashion, just find something YOU enjoy and enjoy it.
Hi-fi is such a scammy industry. Most of the features claimed by manufacturers to be what makes their products the best are pure gimmicks, and have either zero or negative impact on the sound quality. Cables are a prime example. James Randi has had an open challenge for many years in which anyone who can reliably tell the difference, in a properly blinded test, between ANY exotic high end cables and a cheap pair of monsters will get one million dollars, plus the bragging rights. The “golden ears” editors of “highly respected” magazine Stereophile were supposed to take him up on the challenge, but withdrew. None of the other folks recommending others to fork out thousands of dollars for worthless, but well marketed, cable products have done it either. The fact they don’t even want to attempt should tell you something about their level of confidence that there is really a difference in sound, not just perception (which really does change according to our beliefs, much like we see things in the shadows when the mood is right).
My advice is simple. Modern components of decent quality are, with a big exception for speakers, performing almost perfectly. If you buy a hifi magazine and ignore the mumbo jumbo, but do look at the measurements, you’ll quickly notice that even the cheapest amp introduces far less distortion, coloring, phase issues and so on than the best speakers regardless of price point. So sensible folk who want to get a good stereo and then enjoy it for many years, as opposed to those who want to make stereo into a hobby, switch gear constantly, and discuss it all with other followers of this religion, should set a budget, find the speakers you love the most within that budget (which won’t necessarily be the most expensive within that budget), and get a cheap, op-amp based amplifier to run it. Buy the speakers used, as long as you can see and hear them in person - or, consider building them yourself. Unlike the electronics, which is basically flawless, ALL speakers are imperfect and color the sound in their particular way, whether they cost twenty bucks or a million bucks. Some are obviously bad, many are different but saying which is better comes down to taste, so trust your instincts and don’t care too much about what a reviewer thought about them, even though reviews can be a starting point to figure out what to give a listen to.
Being an electrical engineering tech. I will tell you the only thing that matters is the material of the wire. The gauge if the wire and the length of the wire. If you buy copper 12 gauge and don't have a super long stretch of wire you are set. Buy the cheapest wire with this specification.
I used to own a $15,000 DAC from Ch@$d, now I own a $hit DAC that cost $99. The $15,000 DAC sounded 0.5 X better than the $99 DAC. High-end audio is very, very overrated.
The funny thing is, people who buy this expinsive stuff, often forget the most important thing. THE ROOM!
Cables is the Biggest scam But speakers and amps makes a difference for most part
True, "cable-sound" is HiFi voodoo, but i still learned the hard way that the QUALITY of the cable (more specific, the cinch connectors!) matters.
I had for MONTHS problems with my first "better" HiFi system, only about 600€ on speakers and 1200€ on Integrated Amp and CD Player.
The interconnection between CD Player and Amp always worked with "regular" 10€ cables from the HiFi dealer bought with the system.
But anything else i connected on the Stereo Amp - had issues with the connection all the time - until i found out these Amazon Basics cables EASILY SUX! I had to push every few days the outer ring of the connector together a bit so the outer ring makes proper contact with the Amps analog inputs!
I easily got the cheapest cables from "known" brands.... problem solved.
Another issue might be that your system is only as strong as its weakest link (to an extent obviously). I always get a kick out of the reviews on Stereophile that say stuff like this 1K amp didn't have the same depth that my 12K Audio Research amp had through these 50K Wilson Audio speakers. Well maybe that is true but most of us would never consider spending 50K on speakers even if we had the money to spend.
25 years ago, I spent 2 hours in a private showroom comparing 12 speakers, ranging from 150$ to 11,000$. Somewhere in the middle the 800$ speaker sounded ok. The 11K JBL tower was excellent. The 150$ Mordount-Short was the best rocker; and the 350$ Castle was the best for Classical and Jazz. All of these other speakers, that represented the hi-fi range of their day, were duds. It is similarly rare to find a good restaurant to eat in Paris, the great restaurant capital of the world.
Paris is the worst place in France to find good restaurants at reasonable prices ( and I'm French).
@@Jeff-ub4lr I had success with 1 out of the 6 restaurants that I tried in one week in Paris. We would end up with a baguette and cantale back in the apartment to make up for dinner.
@@gokhanersan8561 Next time, get lost in the french country and you will have very nice surprises with the food. As a typical French, for me Paris is not France....
@@Jeff-ub4lr Will do. The crepe + Coke Zero that I had on the Paris street was a fantastic experience, though. The city was so awesome even tough steak tasted tender:)
Andrew, great video. I wanted to add/touch on a point you didn't bring up. There's a point on the curve of diminishing returns where people will find the best "value" to them, but then also be faced with potential buyers remorse (what if i went a little higher, or different product). I consider myself a very "value" based audio hobbyist. And i wanted to mention a few other options/considerations. 1....the used market. Used gear (in great shape) shifts the entire curve upwards, as now you are obtaining gear above the point of diminishing returns but for the same cost! Can only afford an all-in $5,000 system? Great, get a $10,000 system for the same price...used. or 2 .... If you're not into used gear, then get "new gear" marked down. Every year Denon / Marantz and everyone else releases the refresh of their receivers. x6300, x6400, x6500. When they come out they're all $1,000 - $1,500. Wait for the new model that has right now at most 3 upgraded features you may never use, and get last years model for HALF PRICE. We're at the stage where new formats aren't coming out every year, Atmos and DTS:X will be the dominant format for the next 5-10 years (and most folks don't have the space to even fully utilize those!). Get last years model brand new for half the price. Or last years Pre-pro for half price and use the savings on the amp! Speakers don't refresh as often, but they do, so get something to hold you over for now, and if you got your eye on something for a while that you've always wanted, wait for a new model to come and get the old one NEW but discounted (or used). My Klipsch RF7s were closeout half price, brand new, no tax, free shipping when the RF7ii was announced. $,6000 Cornwalls? the Cornwall 4 was just released, if you want heritage go snag up some Cornwall 3s for closeout, or B-stock. Things like this dramatically shift the entire diminishing returns curve upwards, or you can stay where you are on the curve, and use all the savings on room treatments or other areas of your setup. I've learned there's no point buying the brand new of anything. Next eyar will always have a brand new. As you say, you can get 90% of the way there before having to spend a ton more on the curve. With these tips, you can shift the curve and get 95% of the way there for the same price, or keep the 90% and use the savings elsewhere. TVs drop even more! Last years top of the line 75" TV goes from $7,500 to $3,500. And you only gain maybe 2-3%. a 65" can go from $2,500 to $1,500.
I want to add something... when it comes to USED/2nd hand....
I would probably see 2nd hand electronics a bad idea, especially modern AVRs.
But when it comes to speakers (more or less the heart of the system...) buying new was at least in my case always a bad decision, also if we would talk about predecessor models of the actual ones.
My first better HiFi System was a CA Azur 650A integrated amp and 650C CD Player, in total about 1100-1200€ only for Amp/CD Player. But the goal was already to have this setup "forever" so i didnt go the "low end" way of 340/350 A/C.
Adding to this, i picked "only" the KEF IQ50, 630€ with discount at these days since the IQ70/90 were at 1200€-1700€/pair.
1) thank god i didnt invest 1k more for IQ90s directly. Ofc the IQ50 were a bit "weak" in 2.0 for cinema usage, but soon i got a fair priced showroom Klipsch RW-12D sub noone else in this shop was somehow interested in. The prices fall very heavy the first years and as the Qxxx lineup, the sucessor of the IQx0 series was introduced.
2) Only about 2 years after the release of the IQ series, i got IQ 90s 2nd hand for 400€ (the PAIR!, remember, 2 years before they costed new 1600/pair at least). Ofc a very cheap deal, most were in the 600-1000€ range. they were sold because of not fitting WAF in the small bedroom (where these big boys anyways dont belong to...)
3) in coming years i collected multiple IQ3s, IQ30s, even a fair priced IQ7 SE pair (for the sake of comparing it to my IQ 90s and as "backup" if the IQ90 ever break or for spare parts. All of the speakers costed about 80€(IQ3 pair), 100-150 (IQ30 with stands) up to i think i paid anything around 300 for the IQ 7 SE pair.
In fact all my used speakers (2x IQ3, 4x IQ30, 2x IQ7 SE, 2x IQ90...) costed only a bit more than the new IQ 50 (which are "garbage" with 13,5cm drivers compared to the 16cm driver versions of IQ30, 70 and 90!).
But considering you could make with this used speakers 9.0 (2 IQ30s as Center) or with an additional center speaker 11.0 with POTENT IQ90 Fronts....... vs for the same price new only a 2.0 stereo System with "poor" IQ50s...
For me it is totally clear, i will never ever buy new speakers again and better get 1 or 2 classes better and by 2 or even 3 generations behind. At least when it comes to passive speakers.
But the time you buy/look for them is also very depending what you pay for.
Most of my KEF IQ speakers are from the time as they were affordable and at its "cheapest" price point. Nowadays people want 50-120% more than i paid these days in about 2011-2014.
Pretty happy about that, and i can equip my "little" home cinema/living room in the future with KEF IQs only (except subs where i use dual RW-12D Klipsch) in 13.2 as soon AVRs with 11.2/13.2 are affordable.
Great video and dare I say it, a lot more truthful than most other audiophile channels.
Not trying to expose anything (or anyone) just trying to be real with you guys.
What i like about the video is the message that in a way protects consumers or give them sound advice on how they spend their precious dollars and still appreciate the hobby of listening to music or watching videos. It serves as a check on what sound investment is all about and convincing oneself that good audio system doesn't mean 5 figures.
You get it. Thank you for your comment!
At last - an audiophile talking absolute common sense (something - in my opinion, anyway - sadly lacking in the audio equation for many years)
You can save people a lot of grief by disclosing the speakers you heard for 500.00 that were total garbage. :)
Regarding speakers..I heard a pair of Klipsch RP-8000f speaker the other day for about 1200 bucks a pair retail. I was taken aback by how great they sounded (and I've heard speakers costing far more than that that hardly sounded better (well, to my ears). I need to upgrade my speakers and will likely buy those. The local shop offered them to me at a significant reduction, making the decision much easier.
Wow, this is by far the best "audiophile" content I've yet seen on UA-cam. So refreshing to see someone with a reasonable and rational perspective on this stuff!
Personal taste can't be understated. Regarding DAC's...I recently sold a much more expensive DAC and went with something that (on paper) seems like it should be a lesser unit. The thing is, I like a warm analog sound and the DAC that I sold was all detail, no warmth, and very sterile to my ears. Some people love that, but I don't. So, the cheaper converter is my keeper.
A $6000 system isn't definitely going to sound 4x better than a $1500 system. And a $10,000 system isn't going to sound 2x better than a $5000 system. They WILL sound better, but the increase in perceived (and sometimes measured) sound quality will not be proportional to the increased expense or provide better value for money. That's a rule for everything in life.
Correct, the KEF motto back in the 70s used to be: "If you can't hear the difference, don't pay the difference." Class A amps are very fickle, because in theory they can put pure (zero frequency) DC current into the speaker coils, and burn them out. Not to mention the circuit balance and the zero crossover distortion challenge. Big dollars to correct those challenges.
You should do a video on " does a $1000 bottle of wine really taste better than a $20 bottle? Do a blindfolded taste test. It would ravage the wine industry
Let's see - if you know wine, I'd take the blindfold taste. For $1,000 you could get about any bottle of Red Burgandy with a few years on it. You could also get a 1st or 2d growth Bordeaux with ten years of age from a good vintage. I've only had uber-wines three or four times. A 1961 Chateu La Tour tastes like bottle sunshine (or it did in the 80s). Now, you'd want to do this in wine tasting mode - it really isn't nonsense. That said, is a $1000 bottle worth the money? Not unless you've got it to spend. But to try a really great wine once or twice in your life is worth dollars. (Realistically I'd put a top end closer to $150.) My every day wine - $8-10 or less. Real world does interfere.
Get outta here with facts, nobody wants to hear facts. (Pats himself on the back while sipping a 15K wine)
@@Ebergerud were did you sip that sunshine wine?
A pal of mine - figure about 1980 - had helped close down a small San Francisco firm after the founder's retirement. He ended up with the company cellar. Quite a haul. Wonderful wines - mostly French - and stuff like 30 year old Cognac and old single malts. So for a year or so we were both booze punching well above our financial reality. So we went splits on the La Tour - it wasn't that beastly expensive then. We drank it accompanied only by bread. And had one of the firm's Lynch Bages (considered one of the better 5th growths at the time) to use as a control. The LaTour was amazing - easily the best red I've ever had. I'd be glad for a rematch, but my taste buds aren't what they were and the price point today isn't remotely feasible. A good Lynch Bages will go $350 now. The good old days.
@@Ebergerud indeed Eric, spot on. There is a reason, an objective reason, why, through my own empirical experience, a stranger living x miles away from you, whom you never met, I.e. moi, came to the exact same conclusion. Expensive wine is objectively better. 99% of the time. And yes, I’d say it tops out at 150-200 euros. Do more expensive wines taste even better? I don’t know, perhaps I don’t have the palate for it, but it does start to seem a bit suspicious, to me at least. That said, unlike you, I’ve never tasted really, really expensive wines. I think for daily consuming, the best is around the 15 -30 euro mark, with a number of gems to be found in the 8 - 15 euro price point as well.
u can buy the most expensive gear and it still wont sound good if u dont have the right room treatment setting etc... just love what u have and enjoy it with no worries of what others think.
Outstanding video and I agree 100%
Can totally agree.....I'm an older listener, a senior actually, and I bought a B&W home theatre system around 2002 which I paid around 2700 bucks back then. Well to make a long story short I have pissed away money on "later" technology at the behest of a brother who is retired from the industry. He told me how much technology has improved. So I have bought Pioneer, ELAC, Klipsch, chasing this improvement which just hasn't panned out. I also bought a used pair of B&W 685 S2 used on E
bay. They sounded kind of small compared to my DM600 series from 2002. I had a hard time with them until I put them in my bedroom with Emotiva PT-100 pre-amp and bas-x150 amp.This is all entry level stuff from these manufacturers. In my bedroom this system just came alive and blew me away. I can't imagine anything that's going to top it by much. I watch all these glowing reviews from all these reviewers and it's easy to get sucked in to thinking that one product is going to fix your system and fix you. I'm pretty much done with it as I don't think I'm going to get much better by throwing money at it.
You likely will never get anywhere meaningful by simply "throwing money" at any issue. Thanks for watching!
Best system ive ever heard.... Home built horn speakers, tune audio inspired design, costing 2 thousand pounds... The amps running the bass drivers where 2 mono class d amplifiers costing £100 each, pure sound tube amp for the mid tractrix horn etc,it was very life like, could almost get up and touch the singer, trip over the drum kit on your way to changing the record, it wasn't money that achieved this sound, it was knowledge and graft
A couple of really good points made here. Thank you for another great video.
I'm one of those older audiophiles. Was deeply involved when I was young, left it behind when other priorities (marriage, children, professional development) became more important. And just recently returned. At 64, my hearing is not what it once was - especially in the higher frequencies. There are times I can swear that I feel extreme highs, but I can't always hear them. So the ceiling at which I hit the law of diminishing returns is probably lower than someone younger. The budget bookshelf speakers of today (in my case, Yamaha NS-6490) serve just fine - never would have even given these a look when I was younger. I'll eventually upgrade, but will likely limit myself to either $500 floor speakers or simply adding a sub-woofer. And you're correct - as someone who was an extreme audiophile back in the 70's, today's lower cost/performance is astounding to me.
Hey Floyd, many older guys with the same hearing issues gravitate to Klipsch tower speakers. Check out your local craigslist and you'll find some now and then. $500 could nab you an older pair of Klipsch Chorus, KG's, Fortes, KLF's, etc... You may be pleasantly surprised with how you can hear exponential horns and large woofers. No subs necessary, bi-amp terminals on most models (or an easy thing to add later).
For $100 on facebook market place I got a 12 year old setup in immaculate condition. It included 250 watt Yamaha NS-777 tower speakers, 500 watt Yamaha amp and two 270 watt Yamaha subwoofers. My friend couldn't believe how little the difference was (to him at least), comparing my system and the $60,000 800 series B&W/Classe system he inherited from his father.
I feel that many times you really have to critically listen with varied material to hear the differences properly. Otherwise you end up relying on an old auditory memory, which may not be that great if you never really critically listen in the first place.
😂 ya I believe it. You’re paying 90% in marketing costs with those high end brands.
I'm glad you addressed the last point. I'm 42 years old. I've played music in bands, recorded and mixed my own music, and listened to music daily for over 25 years. I recently realized I can't hear much over 13.5 kHz. Some of it is probably chronic sinus issues. But a lot of it is just hearing loss. For that reason, I like fairly bright speakers. I also don't need a ton of low end because it just masks the high end for me. Realizing this has helped informed my purchases. If someone describes a speaker as "warm" or "dark," chances are that I won't love it. All that said, I'd like to think I'm not enjoying music any less.
Ha Ha dont like bright speakers ? High frequencies are the first frequencies to go with hearing lost.
For me pushing the limit is 3,000 usd for a set of speakers, after that speakers will not sound any better, just the finish of the speaker will be better, but not the sound quaity!
I had the B&W 803 D3. I compared them to a new set of Boston Acoustics M350 and Tektons double impact and the sound quality was pretty much the same, just the finish and aesthetics of the B&W was better.
Another speaker that I consider giant killers are the Elacs, Magnepans and the old Boston Acoustics Lynnfield series VR series speakers.
There is a $350,000 amplifier using the 833-A triode in single ended. It is not that difficult to build the same kind of amplifier for less than $2000 in parts. Designing it yourself gives complete freedom of what kind of circuits you like and what kind of components you like. Triode circuits are very simple to build and very pure sounding.
@Andrew Robinson I am a musician with live audio gear, amplifiers, instruments, synths and (most connected to you) recording gear. I am a member of a studio which has both digital and analog based recording - meaning I have access to an 8 track reel to reel, a whole range of mic preamps, compressors, high end DA converters, close field monitors and room monitors. Obviously by design, a studio is a place meant for listening. Interestingly I am finding that the price of high end consumer grade audio and professional grade recording/listening equipment are similar. In fact, I would say in many cases, professional grade recording gear, even really good vintage stuff, can be less expensive. I find it a little ironic that the "out" gear may be more money than the "in" gear was and I would love to see a segment on the parallels between these two worlds.
What are the differences? Could you find something audiophile grade from Sweetwater or on Reverb that’s meant more for professional use and compare it with audiophile grade stuff? Headphones are a common parallel. Most musicians use over ear headphones in the studio that were probably 200$ new. If we rock in ear monitors, we usually spend 200 to 1500 on those, for ultra custom stuff, maybe up to 5,000. Westone or Shure are good brand references for in ear. Monitors are another. Almost every studio has these Yamaha monitors (HS8s or CLA10s) and they are used extensively. Genelic (8050B) seem to be common. A good studio will also have hifi loudspeakers as well. Mic preamps (that essentially do the work of a preamp and are then sent to a Digital or Analog source) would also be interesting. I fundamentally understand the differences between close field studio monitors and loudspeakers that are meant to fill a room but would like to hear your thoughts.
Lastly, live audio. Here is where it really gets ironic for me. A lot of audiophiles talk about replicating live sound, a live room, a live concert. The reality is that most medium venues at best operate with Midas preamps, usually an X32-Mix digital mixer. QSC is a popular PA brand. Most medium sized live shows are being broadcast through QSC K12 powered speakers or JBL PRX815s and some type of powered subwoofer. At best the band is using an in ear system that decreases monitor feed so headroom is increased and the bleed is through any instrument that’s acoustically heard or amplified outside of the main PA. So how good would QSC K12s be if used outside of live duty?
Sorry for the long one but as a lifelong musician who is NOT an audiophile but does appreciate high end audio when heard and who has been in studios where groups like The Doors, Prince and Zeppelin have tracked, I want to understand the differences between these worlds. Thanks!
As a music lover and a musician, I cannot agree more. At the end of the day, it's just music. It's not like your 500$ gold plated cable will add extra notes or correct poor recording and mastering.
BOOM! thank you for weighing in!
Superb analysis except for me I think the law kicks in seriously around $10 thousand for a complete 2 channel system, cables and power conditioner included. I spent $15 thousand only because I am a bit of a gear addict. Under $10 grand the sound and build quality improvement curve is noticeably steeper than over $10 grand.
This is why I am subscribed to this channel. Common sense take on diminishing returns especially concerning DACs and transports. My personal bias is I tend not to believe the huge sonic differences reported for digital equipment without some data. Either measurements with results that show differences that would be audible, or carefully level matched blind listening tests. Brent Butterworth did this years ago with DACs and the consensus was the sonic and difference between the DACs was so minor, that the panel members wondered why anybody would spend the extra money for it.
56 years old...cant hear the difference....and you wouldn't believe how much money it has saved me.....LOLOL....8D...8P
This is the best video I've ever seen on this subject because your answer is direct and detailed, this is why I subscribed your channel, thank you!
Appreciate that!
Your numbers, or level of the beginning of diminished return are exactly, and I mean exactly the numbers that I've experienced. Which is why with my budget I can't see spending over $500 on used, $700 new on speakers, around $300 on a DAC, and i use a Goodwill CD player (which was a top of the line Yamaha in 2000) for a transport. I use vintage power amps so I get thousands of dollars worth of quality for $350 on down. I hav a lot of equipment, but I can put different combos together that I may have $1000 all in, that easily competes with a $5000 (or well more) system. Thanks for covering this topic, and doing it from such an experienced perspective.
Your last point is particularly good. I'm pushing 70, which sucks - my old ears roll off at around 10Khz now. But on the plus side, my old scratched up vinyl records sound a lot quieter than they used to :)
🤣👍
I really like that Andrew didn't shy away from just offering price ranges/points. Thank you! I think this is one of my favorite HiFi discussions and one of my favorite HiFi videos of the last year.
The art world and it's dealers are one of the worst about not publishing prices. Most of the time it's a kind of snobby "Price On Request" thing. There are some jewelry and stone dealers who will just post the price for a one million dollar diamond with no baloney attached while many "art" dealers won't post the price on a $1000 painting, print or drawing. Really annoying, condescending, self indulgent and pretentious. What are they afraid of?
Excellent video, I think its on point in most arguments, but as an electrical engineer I feel like I have to chip in on the DAC discussion. A DAC chipset is only as good as the implementation. Board layout, layer stackup, copper weight, routing, component selection, trace widths, thermals etc makes a huge difference, not only power supply and chassi. An expensive high end 32Bit DAC might very well perform way worse than a 16bit cheap DAC if a digital signal is routed close to a sensitive analog signal, or if for example the ground layer is improperly designed. The chipset sets the upper limit of DAC performance, implementation will set the lower bound. You can find a lot of poorly routed boards out there.
Fully agree
Totally agree with you. The other biggest difference are the speakers on that different brands tend to have their own tone signature and also their design e.g. electrostatics, traditional dipole, vented, sealed, horn tweeters, ribbon, etc... Sometimes just changing speakers and or a sub feels like a whole system upgrade.
It’s always the issue, where that point of diminishing returns kicks in. Some of us might not get to that point due to financial considerations, but if you’re consistently buying new equipment and are having a really hard time telling which one you prefer, you’ve probably reached it for yourself. Sometimes it’s different flavors as opposed to better/worse.
I've been sampling various bookshelf speakers to get a feel for what my next floorstander should be. I found that my 20 year old DefTechs still held up nicely - but the more modern bookshelfs were slightly better at treble/midrange. I did some rotations of Klipsch RP600m, KEF LS 50s, and ELAC Andantes (all purchased open box/scratch&Dent/etc). I found I liked having the different 'flavors' of sound to listen to. I also still am not sure what I will do for a new floor stander . . .
Cost of my system when the gear was new probably about $2500. I purchased everything used over the years for about $500. Been very happy with this system, I believe its gotten me 80%+ of what I expect. Thanks Andrew, this video helps me confirm my thoughts on the diminishing returns of audios cost to performance.
thank you for watching!
I have been using the original Quad 11L bookshelf speakers for around 20 years connected to a Cambridge CXA61. The speakers cost £330 or around $400 US. I recently replaced them with the KEF LS50. The LS50 lasted a few weeks and I have gone back to the 20 year old Quads. It left me thinking that either the KEF’s are over rated or I have some really special old speakers.
Diminishing returns = the S-curve.
Old ears but experienced brains (references) works fine for me.
The ear/brain combo is hard to define in numbers.
Maybe perception (memory) fill in the blanks or connect the dots. (frequencies)
"Let's face it, in 2020 we live in an era where everything is awesome all the time."
- Andrew Robinson, February 10th, 2020.
Sigh.
Can you give examples of these $500 systems sounding as good as $4,000 systems? Two systems with the same exact DAC chip can still sound vastly different, power delivery, noise isolation, capacitor quality make huge difference. Diminishing return is extremely subjective in this regard. I just got my dream system, Sonus Faber Olympica 3 speakers powered by McIntosh MC452, to my ears it sounds multiple times better than a $500 or even $5,000.
Here is an awesome combo for entry level hifi: Yamaha AS301 integrated amp, KEF Q150's, Sunfire Dynamic Sub 8
I disagree greatly with the though that just because the DAC chips are the same, they will be somewhat the same for sound. There is a HUGE amount of variance that can happen in the analog section. Yes the chip may convert to analog, but that actually has to then go to an analog stage so you can listen to it. That can be greatly more important than the chip itself. A legacy DAC chip that is though to be inferior, but having an excellent analog stage, will most likely outperform by a good margin, a higher end DAC that has a lesser analog section.
I mean I get your point but a nice set of dynaudio speakers or b&w 800s from around the year 2000 that cost $5,000 still cannot be replicated for 500 bucks even though I completely agree your money goes a lot further today at those lower price points. Cheap speakers back then were absolutely atrocious
Well said! I buy used a/v and at this point in time, by sticking to hdmi 1.3, am shopping avr's with actual decent amps! first time ever that my "300$ disposable for avr unit" is better spent in the used market. my amp for pc cost 150$, a marantz sr8001 lol
It is like a 8-8.50 woman versus a 10. I will take the 8 with a better attitude and low maintenance
Great Post
Rule of Pareto states that you need 20% effort for 80% of outcome. This applies to a lot of things and I guess it's also fitting here.
´´2020 an era where everything is kind of awesome´´ that didn´t age well XD 1:03
I about died on hearing that line. Lol!!
Im 69 going on 70 and loving all technologys
I agree with you back in the day gear was more expensive today with technology changing we have amazing sounding digital amps for I just picked up a Behringer NX 3000 for 200 bucks I can't believe how it sounds detail and power at 440 a side I have an ab power Amplifier from 15 years ago and I can tell you it doesn't measure up but I am not worried because I got my money worth out of it as for other gear the same applies today we have fantastic budget gear and alot of choice.
90% of audio enthusiasts forgets room treatment all together... most of the rest quickly realise room treatment usually happens inversely proportional to WAF values.
Totally right...
Largely agree, but not about digital transports. I would have agreed back in the day, until I heard the difference between different digital sources feeding the same DAC. It might be explained by jitter, or something else, but it was clearly audible. Buy the best transport you can afford is my advice.
That was a beautiful topic Andrew.
And here is another one... How about discussing the performance of Stereo AMPs vs AVRs in "stereo mode"?
Any differences or no difference at all?
It seems that nobody wants to address that subject. Is it somewhat a myth just because of the industry's No-Go mark?
Would love to hear your thoughts.
I will TOTALLY address this, as I too think it's time we talk about the elephant in the room. Great question!
@@andrewrobinsonreviews please address this issue. I've compared Denon receivers to several other and Denon does the job better, then I got money to buy a few amps and WOW, even the cheap ones bested the Denon. I'm now using a Carver amp. Once I learned about separate amps, I don't even think about using a receiver by itself.
Can you please explain to people that an amp is necessary, or if not then why? I really look forward to this topic. Thank you Andrew
I'll address it right here @Boorock ... a 2-channel amp is going to be superior than than same priced AVR for stereo audio. The build budget has to be spread more thinly on the AVR - there's effectively 5/7/+ amps and radio and streaming and bluetooth and wifi and Dolby/DTS licensing etc,etc. The build budget of a 2-channel amp can be more focussed on power / circuit build, isolation etc.
the difference is day and night. AVRs are design to play movies and to do 10+ other things, the stereo mode is just an extra feature. Stereo integrated amps are design only for music, nothing else.
Like your straight shooter approach. And this video was really a prime example of your substance over style perspective. So I have a question about turntables. Between all the specialization on cartridges, tonearms, motors, etc., etc. (you know this better than the rest of us) what’s a decent price to pay for an audiophile turntable before the law of diminishing returns kicks in? And thanks for sharing your thoughts 👍
Great answers all around especially with the DAC portion of the video. I find it hilarious when old men with thick white hairs sticking out of their ear canals are worrying about whether their speaker cables are high enough off the ground for optimal audio performance.
As a long term budget hifi buyer I have found a lot of bang-for-the-buck from Marantz electronics paired with Dynaudio speakers.
You can use this video as a "Sweet Spot" reference. From there you can make videos about a budget HiFi system, mid HiFi system and a higher-end HiFi system of that sweet spot of yours. That would be very helpful to us who don't have enough time or the money to try all these different parts, before we make a conclusion.
Smart. Honest. Unpretentious. Thanks.
I would also add a fourth element of how you mix and match your equipment. A cheaper system that pairs well might sound better than just say an expensive system that is poorly put together. A first hand example would be that i listened to an expensive pair of planar magnetic headphones on an expensive tube amp and it sounded like trash, not because the products are trash, but because they don't match to where a cheaper pair of neodymium headphones sounded like butter on the same tube amp. Pairings are as or more important than the $$$ spent
Buyer beware? theres a still A lot of crap out there !
When it comes to an AV receiver, is it better to buy say a high end model from 2017, or would a brand new 2021 mid range model perform better? Let's use Denon for example, used x3300(2017) or brand new 970h(2021)?
What he is saying here ..In my opinion...applies to any mass produced product. Once you get past "average or mid range"..the cost goes up exponentially for small improvements
Yes. This is especially true with good soundbars. Sonos is not good.
It’s funny that £500-750 per component is the sweet spot for me and has been for a number of years. I settled in this zone after hearing some £5-10k systems that didn’t sound any different to mine. One actually sounded worse and it was around £25k worth of Naim and Kef gear on a hifi shop.
I am a big fan of minimalist living. Own as little as possible. I chose an amplifier from Cambridge audio that had a decent DAC and had two optical inputs for a Chromecast audio and a tv. I eliminated the need for an external DAC or a streamer that is visible and requires it’s own shelf in a rack.
I like to look at music as my hobby rather than hifi😎
Lex....keep in mind, you heard those other more expensive setups in different rooms than you listen to your system in. And for what it is worth Naim and KEF tend to be on the thin, brighter sounding end of the spectrum. (both over priced in my opinion) To use them together isnt a good match. System synergy is very important
You could have all the best gear you can buy/afford, but one thing I don't see get discussed a lot is room acoustics. A pair of Focal Utopia's powered by McIntosh separate amps, could sound like crap in a room that is full of reflective surfaces, that is not properly treated.
Yes, in that case you’re “listening” to the room, not the speakers. My room is not the greatest, so I know my speakers would sound better in a different room.
BEST VIDEO TO DATE!!!! Great job.... Anyone and everyone considering stepping into the Audiophile or Videophile world, TAKE NOTE..... TRUTH
was out of stereo for 20 yrs, Im 70 and hear hear down to 10 and up to 11000 hz. but I know that is not a flat line graph under 50hz. I bought a Yamaha streaming amp and some Cabasse columns and am a very happy bunny but my room is to small that slightly muddy's the sound. need almost twice the size to let the speakers breath. 2600 euros, to spend more for me is just bragging rights.
One thing you don't mention Andrew is build quality ... which is often compromised in budget product. Plastics to thin metals to aluminium plates / knobs ... Fixed to clips to increasingly more solid binding posts ... better quality / longer life capacitors ... Fixed cheap batteries - built-in obsolescense.
Also a good $500 bookshelf speaker simply isn't going to achieve the same 'fullness' of a larger cabinet 3-way floor-stander.
I agree with the 'diminishing returns' aspect but disagree with much as overly simpilified.
I agree with you, but I do think AR focused specifically on sound quality as a way to answer the question succinctly. Yes, for the extra money you spend you can get a lot more than just sound quality. I have a McIntosh amp and paid a lot for it, but not because I really think it sounds a lot better than the used Adcom amp I got for less than 1/20th the price. I wanted the most durable, repairable solid state amp I could get and I assumed it would sound good. There are more reasons than just sound quality to spend money. But I think Andrew R does a great job of boiling his opinion down to a nice digestible presentation here without getting bogged down in the details that aren't central to the really common question which almost always goes, "How much do you have to spend before you get to the point where you can't HEAR the difference anymore?"
Thanks for reminding us all that sound quality alone is not the compete picture in audio equipment. I'm a big advocate of build quality.
@@AndyBHome We're largely on the same page. I don't want to get to a point though, where manufacturers say there's no point in going the last 30% because the populus thinks they are getting more than their 70% product.
@@ShellstaTube I agree. Diminishing returns isn't something I want to limit the offerings or people's aspirations. I'm a big fan of "perfection" in theory and I personally am willing to pay a lot more for certain things because something about them is better than the rest, or possibly even "perfect." But I still try to be honest with myself and others in that I admit that most of the value of certain things comes at less than half of the price in certain cases. There are plenty of analogies, but usually it boils down to what's important to you and me about something. For me, HiFi is only half about sound quality (very roughly). I stopped trying to justify the cost of things I like in terms of objective value as long as I can afford to pay for it with cash. To me, if I'm going to get $1,200 if enjoyment out of something, that's all of the return I need. The nice thing about stereo stuff is that most of it lasts a long long time and at least for me, none of it costs even a tenth the cost of my other unavoidable expenses like the car, house, taxes and insurance.
@@AndyBHome and hence this concept 'law' doesn't particularly exist in audio. You've just argued against it imo.
There's too many variables & it's all subjective. Build quality, warranty, potential resale value and so on are all very valuable reasons for differences in the cost of products.
There's simply no linear upgrade path in terms of price vs sound vs quality etc.
Cheers. 🎶🎶🎶
@@AndyBHome Yup - all this stuff's a 'nice to have' - we've got to take care the 'essentials' first.
the other great hi-end 'cheat' people don't think about is getting a very good dac and a great pair of headphones. with high quality sources, that will give you sound quality that would cost $5-10k in a speaker/amp setup for under a thousand bucks.
Hey Andrew another great episode. i have noticed that there are some great deals on speakers now, great bang for buck. ie. ELAC, PSB, Aperion. I totally agree with you that there is some great stuff out there for not that much money. Using my 1991 Esoteric CD-Z500 player as transport, and a 350 dollar Cambridge Audio up-sampling DAC I am getting some great sound. Little price tag for a great DAC.
AR makes a good point about scale economies. Speaker A may be more expensive because of overhead of a small company rather than a mega-company that can spread overhead costs across hundreds of thousands of units. (Someone should tell CNET's audio author that it's not necessarily true that the more expensive kit always sounds better--without exception.)
Thanks for noticing that.
I think the size of the company probably has more impact on the cost of it's products in HiFi then any other factor. Technically it's probably mostly about how many hours of labor have to go into a piece, but that's often directly related to how many of something a company builds.
I've been wanting to say this for a long time: what do you get when you spend more money in HiFi? Beyond a few hundred dollars (200-900 depending on the piece?) it's mostly rarity and the degree to which it's hand made. Speakers may also be a matter of size, but within a given size, it's the same.
So ... Do we just pay the cheapest or do we support the company who charges a bit more but seeks to retain a 'quality' that the big company has dismissed as 'uneconomic'?
@@ShellstaTube I support the quality whenever possible. No question. But I'm really happy that people on really tight budgets can get such good stuff at such low prices these days. I wish Topping amps, Audio Technica turntables and Elac Debut speakers (or heck, Dayton Audio) were a reality when I was scraping money together for a system on lawn mowing money.
@@AndyBHome I hear ya Andy - Topping yes, Elac yes - less than enamoured to some of the depths the AT plunge. We definitely can get a lot better stuff for our buck these days ... and I respect everyone's position / means ... but we can't kid ourselves it's as good as some mid market stuff (including life / build quality). I'm happy if manufacturers can get 70% there for their $300-$1000 lines ... so long as they keep producing and pushing toward 100% at >$1000. If it's simply a 'race to the bottom' on $$, that can't be at the cost of seeking 'perfection' (which in itself is different for everyone).
Thanks for the video. I would suggest you including some examples of those items that you’ve found to meet the biggest bang for your buck!
A close friend is moving out of the country and sold me his 2 year old Samsung 4K TV at a substantial discount. It replaced my 2009 Samsung UN55B8000 and boy is there a lot of image improvement.
Sadly my old Onkyo TX-NR807 receiver did not handle 4K signal. From watching several of your reviews I decided to buy a Sony STR-DN1080 during Black Friday for $499, which is less than my Onkyo. I have been very pleased.
My next question after listening to your reviews of Jamo and Klipsch speakers, is will these new line of speakers, which can be purchased between $600-$$1,000, will sound noticeably better than my 20+ years old NHT speakers? Taking advantage of Amazon’s free returns until January 31, I have ordered a pair of RP-8000F speakers. I hope I’m not disappointed.
EDIT: I love the Klipschs! Thanks.
Binge watching your videos now. Good stuff! Just wanna point out that two DAC units with the same DAC chip can sound VERY different, depending on the other components in the unit.
@@jeeefthegreat7555 Well, only if you have good ears and good speakers/headphones, and you play high quality media.
I am 81. In the 60's, i purchased a three way system and built self designed speaker boxes to hold them. They still work well but I can't use them. I took the speakers and crossovers out of the boxes and am storing them. Is there a market for them?
I think one of the ways to hear a difference is by choice of music. if you love pop music that is highly compressed it might even sound better on a lower end system. If you don‘t know what to listen for it will maybe all sound the same. For me many many years ago the first distinction that I learned to appreciate was a proper soundstage. I used to not understand what people were talking about because I could not hear it in any of the systems I had heard. Once I heard a better system with good stage and instrument separation I could never go back. I don‘t have to spend a fortune to get that. But you might be able to hear a difference once somebody points it out to you. It‘s like the tiny scratch on your car you never saw. Once you have seen it it‘s the first thing you see.
What's your best $500 speaker or speakers? Could you put together a killer 2 channel build recommendation at different price points. Say a $1000 setup, $1,500, $2,000, etc...? What in you opinion are the best value components in 2020?
Working on such a video.
$500 used Klipsch towers off of Craigslist.
$2000 KEF LS50 Meta + Sunfire SDS12 (Pinnacle)
Yamaha AS301 w/ WXC50 preamp. ~ $750
Your last point is the biggest elephant in the room for audiophiles. Well said Sir!
Yeah, but……most of the differences I perceive at age 67 between my budget AKG K371 headphone and my Focal Elex doesn’t happen at the extremes of the frequency range but instead at the performance in the mid range. What is that I hear? I ask myself. “Tonal balance”? “Authenticity “? “Transparency”? I hear the difference but can’t find the audio reviewer’s words nor specs that can allow me to make an informed buying decision. It’s okay. We are in a hobby, not an operating room. But, truly speaking, I have EXPECTED to tap out on my personal law of diminishing returns at lower price points than I’m now spending. For me, it’s fun.
DACs are not the same, because 90% of the job is to build a very good analog output, the chip is not even 1% of the quality.
In blind testing high end / expensive dacs can’t be distinguished from budget dacs. This is just a fact. Do your own research by all means.
Luiz...let them know buddy. People who say DACs are the same because they use the same chip just have know idea what goes into it.
@@ST-pn5nu Here is a fact for you.... When you do a blind DAC test, try doing it with high end, revealing audio components. Then you will hear the difference. Night and day my friend. Speaking from MUCH experience...... Enjoy the music.
That’s fine but the actual evidence contradicts what you are saying.
@@ST-pn5nu I dont know what else to say except you are incorrect. Do extensive testing with real high end dacs vs whatever consumer grade Dacs you like and you will see. By the way, not all Dacs use chips
The easiest solution technology wise for speakers, is just to by yesterdays best. Almost all the speakers in my home setup are from 1990. It took a while to collect them but the cost was low and performance is amazing!
I wish people would pursue this- i'm looking at a pair of Vandersteen 2ce's mint and he's asking 350. Today's price- $2850. A great way to get a ton of bang for your buck. And unlike DACs and digital gear, speakers and amp tech hasn't advanced in any meaningful way in decades. (Class D amps excepted.)
Audiophiles listen to music, musicians create music. Why do some athletes enjoy participating in a sport, but do not enjoy watching the same sport. On another note for those musicians who do enjoy listening to to music not their own, a musician's ear might be more in tune to the law of diminished returns associated with audiophile level equipment where large amounts of money translate into barely any discernible improvement in quality. Many audiophiles really want to be identified with the best most valuable equipment but are not necessarily able to tell the difference. The might also be more interested in what is being said with the music rather than the purity or quality of sound.
@Judge & Jury Beat me to it. An accountant friend of a friend I used to know spent mega bucks on a Hifi. He proudly showed it off to me using a Test record of sounds. I then asked what other music he had in his collection. That was it, he had just one vinyl test record.
The most important is, do you have the ears to hear and appreciate it? Then it doesn’t matter how cheap or expensive the set up 👍🏽😊
If I could give young people one piece of advice, protect your hearing at all costs. I’m 65 years old and I have lost a significant portion of my hearing and I have tinnitus (guns, loud rock ‘n’ roll, loud cars) but that doesn’t stop me from enjoying my stereo in my music.
I second this warning.
I'm 36, I have tinnitus too, and my hearing isn't so great (not sure why, only been to one bigger concert). It's definitely a concern, but not too much I can do about it at this point other than taking precautions (I try not to play music too loud).
I saw Aerosmith 2X circa 1977 & 1979..... had to be loudest concert I have ever been to.
Fast Forward to today, and you cannot afford any of it! Glad I got what I got a few years ago!
My old Sansui AU-7900 (which I grabbed at a flea market for $55) was very pleased to hear all this :)
I bought a 200 w class B stereo amp brand new from Jaycar (Australia) and it was like $300 and sounds better than my $900 100 w NAD. Better bass mainly (maybe cos it's double the power). At a third the cost and double the power it's worth $300. It's called Digitech and is 0.1% THD @ 200 w. The NAD is less distortion (0.03%) but only rated at 80w. But it's supposed to put out a bit more. So that's the objective difference but still the Digitech sounds more "natural" at the top with no noticeable "charachtoristics". The NAD sounds a bit "zingy" or "wirey" in the treble to me. And I feel that NADs sound a bit more "transistory" than most transistor anps (to me). It sounds nice and clear but still it's a bit "wirey". I had a NAD reciever back in the '80's and it had the same "charactoristic". The Digitech is more natural even though it's (objectively) not as good.
I liked that the thumbnail showed the cherry version of the Paradigm Monitor Series 7 speakers. I have the Monitor 11's v7 in cherry finish :)
I believe they call this trickle down technology. In the mountain bike world where only the $5000 bike once had disk brakes now all the entry level bikes have disk brakes.
Jaycar (Australia) make some 10" woofer drivers that are the best I heard ever! The drivers are like $50 each ($65 Aust) and I would be reluctant to swap them with any other driver, regardless of price (they are that good). No, I'm NOT a Jaycar add. In case you want the cleanest, neatest, most concise bass sound, get some (if you make speakers). The only woofers that have a really separate kick drum sound with the bass guitar. Some speakers make a blur between the two, not these babies. And that kick drum sound never fails to amaze me every time I turn around. They are: RESPONSE (Jaycar's own brand) 10" home woofers. CW2198. Look up "Jaycar" and get some. I never heard anything like these. Sounds like a real kick drum cos it's so so separate to the amazing deep bass guitar sound. I run them in sealed (old sub boxes that I reshaped and reenforced) sealed. They sound the best sealed I reckon and I will always use exactly the same enclosure "design" (copy these) if I make any more speakers (and I intend to). It seems to go down like 40 hz and every bass note seems the same (except for pitch). No sign of any "one note bass", just clean and pure bass notes with that awesome kick drum. House never sounded better. I use then as normal woofers (not subs) and have just one 5.6mh inductor on them (that's it). And I would not dare do anything else with the woofer crossover (except just resist it a bit) to match the rest of the speaker. If you make speakers try them (sealed) cos the woofers are cheap and you don't know what you are missing out on.
The first time I picked up a copy of Stereophile I was convinced that there had been an error in the printing process, and that the MSRP given for things like CD Players HAD to be missing a decimal point : who the hell was going to pay 25,000 USD for a disc spinner ? Obviously, that's no longer a 'must have' component for most audiophiles but seems to have been replaced by some very expensive DACs and file-based transports (flagship music servers are right up there with those expensive CDPs of yesteryear).
The BIG difference, IMO, is that the only cheap alternatives were some truly dodgy components out of Asia - some of which have disappeared completely and others have improved to the point where they get similar levels of coverage to the big names from the 90s. I completely disagree with your opinion re how similar two DACs will be given the same chip(s) - implementation CAN make a real difference, as we've seen with many SABRE-based DACs - but the availability of relatively cheap silicon has definitely made a difference for those of us who dont want to spend 1500USD+ on the latest-must-have-DAC (granted, I've only owned one FPGA-based DAC). The most startling example of that cheap silicon, IMO, has to be the single board computer (SBC) revolution and IMO that has real implications for people who are trying to build affordable network renderers without having to reinvent some (previously) expensive wheels. It never ends - the cognoscenti went from Roon endpoints to audiophile-grade ethernet cables and network switches in the blink of an eye, but is that really so different to people spending tens of thousands on cartridges and phono stages ?
All of that is a long-winded way of saying that audiophiles will agree that there IS a point of diminishing returns, and then ignore it completely when it comes to their own purchasing decisions. Thanks for the video.
I'm sticking with my used $2500 AMP and old Pre-Amp. Looking at what speakers are great currently.
I so absolutely love this one! ❤️
Also, the simple and straightforward manner in which you put across the relative weightage of respective components. I have been telling my friends for years that you need to budget for speakers, amplifiers/receivers and transports in that order of priority (6.5 : 3 : 0.5).
Andrew you are doing an excellent job (with Christy's help, of course 😁) of not only reviewing AV gear that deserves a review, but also making it so interesting and enjoyable (not to forget the genuineness and that lovely voice & articulation of yours)! Thank you 👍
The most ironic part of music is this: the acoustic nerve RECEIVES the signal, BUT the FRONTAL lobe of the brain PERCEIVES it. Yes this is the difference.
I paid $750 for a Denon AVR-2500 Receiver in the early nineties. Just bought one of the tiny Fosi Audio amps for $70 and can tell no difference when playing CD’s on my $750 Adcom GDC-750 player. Sure if I had a $100 CD player from today, it’d be the same case. Just amazing what is available today.
No its nooot !!! This guy talks bullllshit if you paid 750 for a denon in the 90s its today compareable to amps at least in the same price range !! Bro you wanna say you,re denon is same like a amp for 100.- in 2022 ??????????
I'm running all Parasound pre-amps, power amps, that I would call the middle range, as far as price points. And what I like most with the A21 is its Class A output up to 8-10w. Its just superb and I didn't have to spend into the 10s of 1000s to get there. And if I do crank it up for a movie, those power amps aren't going fall short of the task, so a benefit compared to an under powered AVR. To be fair, some AVRs do have enough power to do the trick.
At some points i regret. Some Cheap Loudspeakers have no differences by hearing them to a class of Higher Price Loudspeakers. But i think it’s only in a Segment of how loud or Human different by hearing the music.
In Speaking or loud laughing , room level like we say in Germany theirs by most no different. It comes than to different how loud by how many air with and without Audio are transport to the hearing Person.👍🏻
Shit speakers in a great room always sound better that expensive speakers in a shit room. ;)
AGE: My hearing is shot from 40 years of abuse. While I can't mix with any accuracy anymore, music playback sounds pretty much the same to me as it did when I was young. Can't take the loud SPL anymore and while I know there are holes in my auditory response, the experience is just as enjoyable. It's kind of like life-- It's not about the adrenaline rush of riding a constant roller coaster. (JBL) But, realizing the subtleties and richness I missed when I was young. (classical music on my Castle Winchester's) I still kayak and climb the odd mountain... and crank out the volume for short periods on my JBL 4315 legacy studio monitors.
Whoa...playing the age card? LOL! There are so many factors that can be attributed to hearing: tonal perception, experience with music, experience with instruments beyond simply applying a "better when young" or black and white copout to why people say "I can't hear the difference". Even when this is true, What differences may one be interested in perceiving? The difference between 16k and 20k? Or the difference in tone represented between two different sets of speakers when listening to the cymbals and high hat in Elvin Jones' kit when he's playing on Nancy with a Smiling Face behind John Coltrane on the Ballads album? My ears are definitely suffering from years of playing and teaching music, but I can notice those differences far better now than when I was younger. If simply by the fact that I know (and care) what to listen for. But I do agree with of what you've said here overall, so thank you for your insightfulness.
Dac's most important point is how it is designed a good design will do the job.
This. If a manufacturer purely relies on the DAC chip itself to do all the work then he might be right with his statement. But most high end DACs and streamers heavily modify the reference design to get more accurate clocks and more stable reference voltage and use multiple Chips per channel etc. And these things matter a lot in fact. You barley see a high end digital source just putting the DAC chip as it is and using the manufacturers reference circuit. This is something most mid tier streamer (amps) do. You can't simply say "oh this 700 $ streaming amp uses the same AKM 4497eq that is also found in Linn's Katalyst Design. It's probably already very close in sound." That's like saying "oh this B&W 606 uses the "same" continuum woofer found on the 805. It's probably almost as good."