Daring recon won't affect the 1-3 missing. That's a rule about unmodified rolls. Daring recon only affects the -1 modifier to the hit roll from indirect. Two separate things.
@@wurstsalatplays523 Unfortunately, yes. GW generally isn't overly concerned with making FW units worse. And their quest to make indirect barely playable will have several casualties along the way.
I understand that vehicle players are happy with the changes but my pure infantry is now getting tabled turn 3. So it's not really a benefit of any way. Plus I'm 99 percent sure that Scout Sentinels wouldt ignore new penalty. Artillery went down because it got worse
Just want to thank you for being a positive contributor today in a sea of reactive doom and gloom to these changes. It's all good and fine to be annoyed or frustrated by stuff but that sort of content takes a toll so I knew when I saw this video it would be comfortable, informative, and positive. So for that I say thank you!
I can't stand channels like Warhammerman because that's all they do is make clickbait, clickbait titles with clickbait title cards always some variation of "GAMES WORKSHOP KILLS" or "NO MORE, THIS IS THE END" that kind of crap that makes it seem like the sky is falling or the world is ending like dude stop trying to make daily content because it's all clickbait trash, just make one good video per week maybe two but I don't see how you can even do daily or every other day for Warhammer videos on UA-cam.
Thanks! I really appreciate you saying that. I aim to keep the hobby positive, that's why we are here afterall, right? Not to say we can't be critical at times, but most of the time we SHOULD be having fun 😁
Would be interesting to get the scout sentinel thing cleared up. And the Preator Target Coordinates ability as well. "While this model is being affected by an Order, each time it makes an attack with its Praetor launcher, it does not suffer the penalty to the Hit roll for attacking a unit that is not visible to it."
The way I’m reading it that “1-3 never hits” is worded the same way that Overwatch is and therefore no bonuses or abilities can make it work. They’ve effectively patched indirect fire out of the game because this means nearly every faction’s ID weapons are hitting on 5’s
@@siobhanmercer9424 5? If they have BS3+ (or 4+ and heavy) they will be hitting on 4+ as usual, it's just that it can never be better than that. Manticore still hits on 4+ with rerolls against units of 5 or more, and now we don't need to give it an order since that wouldn't make it hit better. It got worse, yeah, but still usable.
Daring Recon would still allow for the re-roll of 1s. Daring Recon re-rolls results of a 1 therefore if a 1 is rolled on an attack it is re-rolled making it a new result.
I think the change will ultimately be beneficial once people realize what we can do. All of our dedicated transports have the squadron keyword, and scions can deep strike and attack objectives with full rerolls. I think adding to the Rapid Fire might be better than going from 3+ to 2+. Welcome to the age of mechanized guard.
scions could deepstrike and get full rerolls on objectives since the start ? Also Preator ability is now basicly non existent since it gets overrules by the 1-3 automiss ^^
@@wurstsalatplays523I think he meant now you can fish for both lethals/sust1 with Scions. I tested it out the other day on some Death Guard and it was brutal. They punch way above their points cost and are sort of psuedo indirect with their deep strike getting to places and angles your opponent doesn't want.
Okay, realistically, how many people are running Praetors? I've seen 1 in person in my 10 years. And it's still more valuable than the Trojan is currently. We definitely have more pros than cons on this update and many of the cons are affecting few collectors.
Combined arms forces -- interestingly you still can KIND OF use lasguns to mass attack creatures -- just with Chimera's -- and using transport spam can give you the flexibility and survivability to deliver your guard to actually inflict those lethal hits -- while using the heavy weapons while they are inside the chimera to inflict lethal hits on vehicles.
Pile 3 HWT Lascannons into a Stormlord (Firing Deck 24) now fire 13 Lascannons into vehicles, transport them out and fire 9 Lascannons into Infantry next turn
@@lucuswilliams4598 theoy yes, in practise youre not movin anywhere since thge board is too dense and you now have 700pts+ (includin lord solars order youll NNED) inside a vehicle wich doesnt profit from your detachment rule, cant contest caps, and is mediocre at killin tanks if you can even get LOS (pretty easy to hide from one single source of AT firepower) you get all the drawbacks of a superheavy .. without its benefit.. which is the heavy meain gun.. all for a 30% price increase for those HWT
So, GW is basically forcing us to make truly combined regiments - we can't go either full Artillery, Tanks or Infantry, we must include at least some tanks and infantry to be more flexible against enemy rosters. Or we can do 18 sentinels...
RE: Scout sentinels, as i read it, they dont ignore the 1s-3s missing. The -1 to hit is a penalty to the roll. The "all 1s, 2s and 3s fail" is not a penalty to the roll but a limitation on the roll. This is for sure how GW will FAQ it when they eventually do
I think you're right on the Daring Recon. The term penalty is never defined in the Core Rules, so if it doesn't apply to the Hit Roll on 1-3 always fails, then it wouldn't apply to the -1 to Hit either. The ability should probably be redefined so it falls under the Ignore Modifiers rules.
(Daring Recon) The Penalty to the Hit roll is the -1 to hit. While the auto-miss on 1-3 is a penalty, it is a static rule and does not apply to the roll itself.
daring recon says you only ignore the penalty to the hit roll. automatically missing on a 1-3 is not a penalty to the hit roll. pretty obvious it only ignores the -1 to hit for indirect fire.
At 18:08 you answer one of your earlier questions via what you display on screen. If you read the Page 10 - The Battle Round section where it talks about 'out-of-phase' rules, it says: "When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase." This means that our detachment rule will not trigger on overwatch or other times when reactionary shooting happens in any of your opponents phases. Not sure if that's different from how it is now, but it certainly means our detachment rule doesn't happen "all the time" now.
Like so many other people said, thank you for being a positive voice in all of this. Also, what do you guys think of using the Kurov’s Aquila on a 20 man DKoK block with a Marshal and running it to the middle. With the new aura of +1CP to all strats that could really mess with peoples gameplan.
Would they do a re-release of the core book? I’m relatively new to the game (played some in 3rd edition and came back a year ago) and it seems nuts to have all these little tweaks to the rules in this document or that document. It’s great when updates roll into the 40K app but the official core rules document should get updated too.
@@CadianSergeantSteel I agree. Basilisks no longer need Take Aim. Buff them with Scout Sentinels and Hellhounds which you'll be taking anyway. FOBs with orders will still be nuts with Sustained Hits and don't sleep on Heavy Weapon Squads w/ Mortars. Just saturation fire anything with 9d6 shots per turn. Or as I said previously, drop the artillery park and TRIPLE DORN BA-BEEE!
The ignoring the no hitting on 1-3s with Daring Recon feels like a malicious RAW interpretation. Theyre very obviously trying to hamstring artillery because it isnt fun or interactive for the opponet. Especially when its coming from durable platforms. I see how you came to that conclusion but it reads to me as something thats very cleary trying to intentionally interpret it against the spirit of the rule
I agree. I feel that RAW it does negate it but it isn't intended to do that. And thats the issue with intent, without it being in the FAQ we don't officially know either 😒 I like clarity
is it malicous ? i mean if it werent that way 2 unit abilites would basicly been gutted by this. Preators ability is now completly invalidated i guess then.
I disagree, artillery requires Daring Recon now without a doubt and so artillery may be cheaper, but it REQUIRES another tax unit to avoid being hamstrung. If your opponent has good target priority and destroys your Scout Sentinel then your artillery is vastly less effective. Take 1 Sentinel, it may get blown off the table no problem. Take 3 in a unit and it may survive a while longer but that is an expensive artillery combo.
Great video CSS, love your stuff. IMO until they clarify how Daring Recon is meant to work, indirect fire with Artillery is dead for now, still not worth running 140pts of Basilisks. Side note, you mentioned you could give Artillery +1 to hit if your enemy applied a -1, however, it's irrelevant, the new rule states 'unmodified hits of 1-3' which means it doesn't matter what your + is, you're still auto failing on >3. At least, that's how I understand it.
people always complain that reinforcements and indirect fire were never fun to play against but I find alpha strike armies not fun to play against I don't see gw nurfing them
That and he's probably one of the best reinforcement targets in Pariah Nexus. He just does actions and racks up points all day. If he dies just spend the 2cp and bring him back in an empty area to keep scoring points.
@@ghost9pm407 I would argue that a scion command squad being warlord would be the best to bring back turn 5 in the enemy deployment zone, instant secret mission! But that means no lord Solar so it has it's drawbacks.
@@karlnygren Oh yeah that's a great use also. I haven't had too much trouble scoring Primary but it's nice to have the option for the Secret Mission in your back pocket. I'm also running 6 squads of Scions so I've been leaving the Lord Solar at home. I find that the two Tank Commanders I use give me some extra punch and also sufficient order support for my Vanilla Russes, who would probably fine without them anyway because of their built-in re-rolls.
@@ghost9pm407 yeah, with LR battletanks take aim isn't really necessary (until degraded) but +3" move is great. I've been thinking of having those in a "pure" scion army as well since they have the same rule 😁 My tank orders primarily go to my Dorn, making a good tank great.
On the sentinel thing, I don't know how the 1-3 limit couldn't be a penalty, and also if it still applies, then the other part of the rule essentially does nothing as it would generally be allowing artillery to hit on 3s. Interested to see where they go with that one. If the hit roll limiter does still apply then daring recon needs a full re-write, maybe re-rolls to hit instead or something.
Honestly I have a really bitter taste in my mouth. I have two Combat Patrol boxes and a Dorn, and it feels like the only thing that's worth a damn now is the Dorn. Infantry is free VP to the enemy, so I don't want to bring that. FOBs I can't buff into reliability anymore. Sentinels... okay, I can group those and have a worthwhile use for my ONE Reinforcements strat. But it's really a bad feeling to feel like al this time and money I've spent building and painting half my collection is now wasted.
That hasn't been my experience. My infantry gets work done. They tie up my opponent and score me major points. Sometimes they pop out with Meltas and just waste the enemy. Sentinels are AMAZING. FOBs are okay and can work well in mass. Tanks are also good but not OP. I usually smash all tank lists with a combined arms guard list. That's just my experience though. Sorry to hear about yours.
Hard disagree, 20 Krieg with a marshal are hard to kill and deal decent damage, my rough riders do work, gaunts ghost's are amazing for scoring. Guard was in an alright place before but now i think we are gone winning bigly.
Infantry are your area denial units. They will die, and they will tend to do little damage before they do, BUT you can use them to screen and stand on circles, so your heavy hitters don't need to sit on hotspots and also don't have to worry about surprise flanks.
@@IronCow8 Krieg with a marshall.. arent hard to kill if you look at other armies tanky infantry units. Kriegsmen get killed by everythin which has dmg 2. They are still fragile.
Another question, does things that remove BS and hit modifiers negate the 1 to 3 always fail rule? Like mortarian and dark reapers exarch? As that is modifying the hit?
Modifiers are explained better in the Rules Commentary document. Any change to a number is a modifier, including making it 0 rather than doing plus or minus. So for the always miss, I am.unsure though.
I still think the Sentinel indirect fails on 1-3. They changed the rules for a reason, the sentinel ability was written way before this update right? Indirect hit rolls "always" fail on an "unmodified" 1-3. It doesn't seem like a penalty to me. The sentinel ability makes it a modified hit roll. I could be wrong, I'm a new player but I feel like the rule change just came out, so the sentinel ability only applies to smokescreen or -1 to hit rolls like Vanguard Spearhead.
I've reconsidered my previous understanding of the Indirect Fire changes. Reading through the Indirect Fire rule the automatic miss on a roll of a 1, 2, or 3 is explained in the penalties paragraph. When you look at the Daring Recon ability of the Scout Sentinel it removes the penalty for the Indirect Fire weapon ability. If it removed the benefit of Cover and the -1 to hit previously there is nothing saying the auto miss wouldn't get included in the "penalty." Somebody red team this for me.
As I see it, the Scout Sentinels' Daring Recon ability should still wipe the -1 to hit and the Hellhounds' Flush Them Out ability should still wipe benefit of cover. The intent as I can see is Indirect Fire weapons get a coin flip and that's the best you can hope for. No more mailing love letters across the board. Just put those orders, stratagems, and +1 to hits somewhere else.
@@chazzledazzle89 Because in spite of those "modifiers" orders and daring recon, artillery shooting indirectly will always miss on a 1-3 no matter what.
doesnt change much for me. didn't had any artillery units before and used the sentinel for reroll 1 to hit alone. but yeah for indirect it does less than before. only helpfull vs stealth units now
IMO, Born Soldiers should work on infantry or vehicles depending on the strength of the weapon firing, not the kind of model firing. The heavy stubbers on a Rogal Dorn shouldn’t be better at killing tanks than infantry.
Str 6 and below, non-monster and non-vehicle. Str 7 and higher, monsters and vehicles. Only super disappointing result of that I can think of quickly is no Autocannon Lethals against Terminators.
this born soldier change clearly buffs my towed artillerys so its not that bad to be honest, as they hit on 5+ and can hit on 4+ with an order. but for a basilisk a 30-50% point decrease should have happened as they are nearly useless now as they could hit on 2+ with modifiers so they basicly went from 83% hit chanse to 66% which is dogshit. But bombast field gun is not affected by negative changes so I dunno why the point decrease, but its a wellcome change for sure. as death strike is not considered indirect now I have a reason to put 3 of em in a 2k point game
The way i interpret the new IDF rule is that the scout sentinel will allow our Basilisk and Manticore to hit on 3s with heavy. It specifies an unmodified hit roll. Heavy is a modification, therefore allowing it to negate that secondary penalty.
Wholeheartedly disagree that the reinforcements nerf will make the game as a whole better. I think it removes a thematic aspect of the game and in the case of tyranids unending swarm, it completely destroys an entire detachment. Guard can survive without it, but it’s still less thematic. There are better ways to fix it. It’s a heavy handed change that GW made to fit the pariah nexus mission pack in my opinion. You know, Instead of designing your mission pack around the game, have the company drunk write some rules and change the game to fit the mission pack.
It's over for pure infantry players Good thing I have a backup 2000pts of armor Reinforcements being changed is not good, they should've made it where you just can't bring them from the enemy's deployment zone
Daring Recon doesn't stop the new indirect ruling. This is very widely stated by every competitive channel and will likely be the exact same stance of every TO
So many of the changes seem arbitrary and primarily because the models are used successfully. Ages ago Epic40k had statlines that were produced by a formula. So 5cm of movement was worth 5 points, shooting at 5+ at 50cm range was worth 20 points, 5 points for each pip on the die and 5 points for each 25 cm of range. So the base statlines made sense, then they focused on balancing the special rules. Making Netepic nowadays one of the most balanced systems. Also, curiously enough, Armageddon as well.
Aye. A penalty to the roll would change the roll or the target number (which while effectively what it does isn't quite that), in a similar way that torrent isn't a bonus to the hit roll, it's just a rule that effects (well in that case replaces) the hit roll
Oh lovely they reclassified all the crisis suits as vehicles too. This actually kinda feels like a buff to the militarum against tau because all squadron units just got lethal hits forever
@@parko246 well hold up there. 20 bodies is still 20 bodies and they have lethal hits against anything that isn't vehicles or monsters forever now. I say swap the meltas for grenade launchers and enjoy the extra blast shots that you can roll 6s on. forget about taking anti-tank on the infantry if because if you really need it you can just grenade stratagem and get as much dakka as possible for infantry. helps with the green tide spam too.
The Always Miss for indirect is not going to be classified a penalty. I think you are trying to stretch too much for Daring Recon; its wishful thinking on your part. Prepare yourself for disappointment. I say this as a guard player. The change they needed to make and failed to: Scout Sentinels needed to have Daring Recon simply provide Rerolls to Hit when firing Indirect Fire weapons when the target is not visible. Another way to look at the Punisher is to put Multimeltas in the sponsons and a lascannon in the hull to go vehicle hunting, and the punisher cannon for infantry. See, Lethal Hits and Devastating Wounds is a nonbo. Seen from a certain light, this is not a nerf at all. It does suck that you aren't getting Lethal on the heavy bolters and stubber, but it kind of helps the punisher a bit.
Not a huge fan of the pivot rule for round bases. No penalty for pivoting. Looking at Dark eldar raiders and such can deploy length ways on the line, pivot for free and gain 2 inches.
Daring recon should remove the 1 to 3 penalty, although I think intended vs written will change this. GW hates indirect (almost as much as they hate aircraft)
@@CadianSergeantSteel no matter how sad I am that I lost what I loved, I’m happy my friends who have Custodes and Nids are super happy. It all evens out in the end. Hopefully we get a codex soon so I can get what I want.
This uodate to the game makes me feel like my thoughts may have been confirmed: This edition isnt for us, this edition is for gw to completely relearn 40k. 11th is gonna be for us (the playerbase).
I feel these changes are ill-thought. Baneblade etc, no lethals. Tank commander, not a born soldier apparently, no lethals. Anti-tank hvy weap infantry, no lethals vs tanks. Anti-infantry tanks, no lethals vs infantry. Reinforcements was a crutch, kicked away, could have easily been made simply setup in deployment area only, or a version of sites of power in mid table, control the obj, can set up. Ratling snipers and Ogryn, no lethals. Chimeras filled with navy breachers with free Creed grenade strat could be fun.
My Poor Mecharius Vulchan no lethal hits for you ): , Now however a Malacador defender with lethal hits on over watch now that could be cool. Any overwatch in general benefiting. I feel like I might have to balance my army with squadron units more because if i can't lethal hit my way though vehicles and monsters I might have a hard time. Also the hazardous change scares me unless I mis understood wherever the mortal wounds will spill over. The indirect fire changes would have me believe you could play your artillery more mobile now and risk getting into direct los for the weapons. You could use scout sentinels just so you cancel the -1 to hit so you'd mostly be hitting on a 4+ if your mobile then if you stay stationary later the heavy would just cancel out any accuracy nerfs/stealth related nerfs. & still give you those rerolls of 1's. You could move around with the benefit of still having lethal hits and maybe play some backline objective or some long distance direct line of sight. I'd be less inclined to play the backline solar buff artillery blob. Especially with not needing the extra cp for reinforcements.
The mortal wounds from hazardous are per model and do not spill over, they work like devastating wounds do now. So with a little luck a Kriegsman can survive his plasma blowing up (three 5+ if the Marshal is watching). And I also think the game will be a little different with moving artillery. Heavy bolter and hunter killers will be fired more now, especially since they get lethal as well.
I hadn't even got around to thinking about deep striking or units arriving from reserves with lethal hits. Oh that sounds so scary against the right target. I guess with it being called the Combined arms detachment its further to design for the future.
Like... 15 or 16 of the old kits fully painted. I have 9 of the new ones, but my painting isn't finished yet. Soon though. I am doing Autocannons and Mortars first. Heavy Bolters will probably be next.
Hence why i stopped collecting 40K a year ago. They change it so many times its impossible to get an army and stay competitive. It's all designed to get you to buy what they want you to buy. They balance on money spreadsheets, what is selling and what isn't and how much people are willing to buy it for. Such a shame but not getting into a game when they do that.
We have one more character with Regiment actually, the scion command squad. I'm thinking of having them as my warlord (if I don't bring Solar), have them killed and then use reinforcement to deep strike the warlord into the enemy deployment zone as a last turn Secret Mission win 😁
Creed can't do her ability on Reinforcements because for Creed the target unit has to be on the table and within 12", and with Reinforcements they are no longer on the table to be within range of Creed.
I think the reinforcements change was needed with the change to Creed's reduce strategem cost by 1 ability. Creed would be able to hand out 1 cp reinforcements all game (
@@CadianSergeantSteel I think I heard in the GW video that titanic units can move through terrain now asl long as they finish outside the terrain. Will check after work today
You couldn't use the minus one cp on reinforcements since they are destroyed and removed from the battlefield, that makes them too far away for the ability
I'm not that experienced (only been playing for 6 months all spent with guard) but this ruins guard! Our infantry is useless unless it's in 20 man blobs and our artillery is terrible. I have had to fall down on reinforcements, born soldiers and artillery just to draw a game. I know people are going to say "skill issue" but I have been tabled by dark eldar too many times to deal with this! Game workshop are making guard unplayable!
Cant say i play against dark eldar often but i think “tarpitting” in the midfield with infantry and hammering with tanks works fairly well against most enemies. Sad to lose the reenforcments but you might do well to bring a few more waves of troops and cut the arty for more tank fire like rogal dorns😊
Do GW pay you - seriously reinforcement only once per game. Infantry are longer any threat and will just be mowed down. Artillery is being nerved out of the game. Infantry and arty nerved- gutting two of our three pillars. Seriously you are right off the mark. Scout sentent ability will be nerved as all arty is soon to be nerved out of the game, like fliers.
![[UA] NAVI vs MOUZ | BO5 | IEM Rio 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CMBYk0cbGoA/mqdefault.jpg)
Leman Russ Punisher, the canonically infantry shredding Russ, does not get lethal hits to infantry, but does to vehicles.
To it's credit, it does get Devastating Wounds still which does help 🤔
And the Baneblade doesn't get lethal hits on vehicles but the multi-laser on my Chimera does...
Meh, you are going to wound Infantry on a 2 or 3, anyways. I guess I'm not too worried about it. Before you were probably moving with it anyways.
@@danwilde4712 so true
Videogame logic in 40k
Shoot a vehicle enough and you'll make it explode
Daring recon won't affect the 1-3 missing. That's a rule about unmodified rolls.
Daring recon only affects the -1 modifier to the hit roll from indirect.
Two separate things.
which would mean Preators ability is now null and void.
@@wurstsalatplays523 Unfortunately, yes. GW generally isn't overly concerned with making FW units worse. And their quest to make indirect barely playable will have several casualties along the way.
I understand that vehicle players are happy with the changes but my pure infantry is now getting tabled turn 3. So it's not really a benefit of any way.
Plus I'm 99 percent sure that Scout Sentinels wouldt ignore new penalty. Artillery went down because it got worse
Just want to thank you for being a positive contributor today in a sea of reactive doom and gloom to these changes. It's all good and fine to be annoyed or frustrated by stuff but that sort of content takes a toll so I knew when I saw this video it would be comfortable, informative, and positive. So for that I say thank you!
I can't stand channels like Warhammerman because that's all they do is make clickbait, clickbait titles with clickbait title cards always some variation of "GAMES WORKSHOP KILLS" or "NO MORE, THIS IS THE END" that kind of crap that makes it seem like the sky is falling or the world is ending like dude stop trying to make daily content because it's all clickbait trash, just make one good video per week maybe two but I don't see how you can even do daily or every other day for Warhammer videos on UA-cam.
Thanks! I really appreciate you saying that. I aim to keep the hobby positive, that's why we are here afterall, right? Not to say we can't be critical at times, but most of the time we SHOULD be having fun 😁
I think the only two people who do daily content well are Auspex Tactics and Valrak.
Would be interesting to get the scout sentinel thing cleared up. And the Preator Target Coordinates ability as well.
"While this model is being affected by an Order, each time it makes an attack with its Praetor launcher, it does not suffer the penalty to the Hit roll for attacking a unit that is not visible to it."
Yep, definitely the same problem there. Thanks for pointing the Praetor out too.
The way I’m reading it that “1-3 never hits” is worded the same way that Overwatch is and therefore no bonuses or abilities can make it work. They’ve effectively patched indirect fire out of the game because this means nearly every faction’s ID weapons are hitting on 5’s
@@siobhanmercer9424 5? If they have BS3+ (or 4+ and heavy) they will be hitting on 4+ as usual, it's just that it can never be better than that. Manticore still hits on 4+ with rerolls against units of 5 or more, and now we don't need to give it an order since that wouldn't make it hit better. It got worse, yeah, but still usable.
@@karlnygrenbenefits of cover from indirect fire.
@@Desminith343 yeah, that's not changed. I'm going to try my new hellhound next game, that might take care of that
Daring Recon would still allow for the re-roll of 1s. Daring Recon re-rolls results of a 1 therefore if a 1 is rolled on an attack it is re-rolled making it a new result.
Agreed.
Daring recon should just negate the -1 to hit with rerolls of 1s. You still can't hit better than a 4
@@Thunder-pain already handled in replies.
I think the change will ultimately be beneficial once people realize what we can do.
All of our dedicated transports have the squadron keyword, and scions can deep strike and attack objectives with full rerolls. I think adding to the Rapid Fire might be better than going from 3+ to 2+.
Welcome to the age of mechanized guard.
scions could deepstrike and get full rerolls on objectives since the start ? Also Preator ability is now basicly non existent since it gets overrules by the 1-3 automiss ^^
@@wurstsalatplays523I think he meant now you can fish for both lethals/sust1 with Scions. I tested it out the other day on some Death Guard and it was brutal. They punch way above their points cost and are sort of psuedo indirect with their deep strike getting to places and angles your opponent doesn't want.
Okay, realistically, how many people are running Praetors? I've seen 1 in person in my 10 years. And it's still more valuable than the Trojan is currently. We definitely have more pros than cons on this update and many of the cons are affecting few collectors.
Combined arms forces -- interestingly you still can KIND OF use lasguns to mass attack creatures -- just with Chimera's -- and using transport spam can give you the flexibility and survivability to deliver your guard to actually inflict those lethal hits -- while using the heavy weapons while they are inside the chimera to inflict lethal hits on vehicles.
chimera only has 2 firing decks.. might aswell dont bother to put anythin inside ^^
Pile 3 HWT Lascannons into a Stormlord (Firing Deck 24) now fire 13 Lascannons into vehicles, transport them out and fire 9 Lascannons into Infantry next turn
@@lucuswilliams4598 theoy yes, in practise youre not movin anywhere since thge board is too dense and you now have 700pts+ (includin lord solars order youll NNED) inside a vehicle wich doesnt profit from your detachment rule, cant contest caps, and is mediocre at killin tanks if you can even get LOS (pretty easy to hide from one single source of AT firepower) you get all the drawbacks of a superheavy .. without its benefit.. which is the heavy meain gun.. all for a 30% price increase for those HWT
@@wurstsalatplays523 ...so you're saying theres a chance!
So, GW is basically forcing us to make truly combined regiments - we can't go either full Artillery, Tanks or Infantry, we must include at least some tanks and infantry to be more flexible against enemy rosters.
Or we can do 18 sentinels...
I don't think so. I don't think our Detachment rule makes or breaks anything.
RE: Scout sentinels, as i read it, they dont ignore the 1s-3s missing. The -1 to hit is a penalty to the roll. The "all 1s, 2s and 3s fail" is not a penalty to the roll but a limitation on the roll. This is for sure how GW will FAQ it when they eventually do
I want you to be right about daring recon. But I think it only ignores the -1 to hit.
I think you're right on the Daring Recon. The term penalty is never defined in the Core Rules, so if it doesn't apply to the Hit Roll on 1-3 always fails, then it wouldn't apply to the -1 to Hit either. The ability should probably be redefined so it falls under the Ignore Modifiers rules.
I think he's wrong on daring recon. I think the 1-3 isn't a modifier and wouldn't be ignored
Nah I'm all for guard have best arty 🖕😅🖕. It's a joke I just thought it was funny😅
the new indirect rule is worded just like how overwatch works. and with OW, you also don't get any modifiers unless explicitly stated. same here now
(Daring Recon) The Penalty to the Hit roll is the -1 to hit. While the auto-miss on 1-3 is a penalty, it is a static rule and does not apply to the roll itself.
I do agree, I think that is surely the intent. They should make it more clear.
daring recon says you only ignore the penalty to the hit roll. automatically missing on a 1-3 is not a penalty to the hit roll. pretty obvious it only ignores the -1 to hit for indirect fire.
At 18:08 you answer one of your earlier questions via what you display on screen. If you read the Page 10 - The Battle Round section where it talks about 'out-of-phase' rules, it says: "When using out-of-phase rules to perform an action as if it were one of your phases, you cannot use any other rules that are normally triggered in that phase." This means that our detachment rule will not trigger on overwatch or other times when reactionary shooting happens in any of your opponents phases. Not sure if that's different from how it is now, but it certainly means our detachment rule doesn't happen "all the time" now.
It doesn't specify a phase in the new detachment rule. Instead the triggering element appears to be doing a ranged attack.
@@CadianSergeantSteel Ahh yup! You're right. I forgot you had gone over that as well! :D
2 Psykers in a Chimera.....let's roll!
That'll definitely shoot like crazy
Like so many other people said, thank you for being a positive voice in all of this.
Also, what do you guys think of using the Kurov’s Aquila on a 20 man DKoK block with a Marshal and running it to the middle. With the new aura of +1CP to all strats that could really mess with peoples gameplan.
Would they do a re-release of the core book? I’m relatively new to the game (played some in 3rd edition and came back a year ago) and it seems nuts to have all these little tweaks to the rules in this document or that document. It’s great when updates roll into the 40K app but the official core rules document should get updated too.
Agreed
Don't waste your money in gw books
Here we go lads. RIP artillery, but Triple Dorn is gonna shine.
12d6 Tank Shock is king.
I don't know... artillery might not be so bad off. I think FOB may have a better place now and Basilisks will definitely still be relevant
The earthshaker carriage DOES have REGIMENT keyword so it has lethal hits against infantry.
@@CadianSergeantSteel I agree. Basilisks no longer need Take Aim. Buff them with Scout Sentinels and Hellhounds which you'll be taking anyway. FOBs with orders will still be nuts with Sustained Hits and don't sleep on Heavy Weapon Squads w/ Mortars. Just saturation fire anything with 9d6 shots per turn. Or as I said previously, drop the artillery park and TRIPLE DORN BA-BEEE!
@@fungoidshaman3120 oh fuck yeah!!!! 💥💥💥
The ignoring the no hitting on 1-3s with Daring Recon feels like a malicious RAW interpretation. Theyre very obviously trying to hamstring artillery because it isnt fun or interactive for the opponet. Especially when its coming from durable platforms. I see how you came to that conclusion but it reads to me as something thats very cleary trying to intentionally interpret it against the spirit of the rule
I agree but the Daring Recon to reroll 1s still applies
I agree. I feel that RAW it does negate it but it isn't intended to do that. And thats the issue with intent, without it being in the FAQ we don't officially know either 😒 I like clarity
@@clintestes5889 oh absolutely it does. I don't think that's in any doubt
is it malicous ? i mean if it werent that way 2 unit abilites would basicly been gutted by this. Preators ability is now completly invalidated i guess then.
I disagree, artillery requires Daring Recon now without a doubt and so artillery may be cheaper, but it REQUIRES another tax unit to avoid being hamstrung. If your opponent has good target priority and destroys your Scout Sentinel then your artillery is vastly less effective.
Take 1 Sentinel, it may get blown off the table no problem. Take 3 in a unit and it may survive a while longer but that is an expensive artillery combo.
Great video CSS, love your stuff.
IMO until they clarify how Daring Recon is meant to work, indirect fire with Artillery is dead for now, still not worth running 140pts of Basilisks.
Side note, you mentioned you could give Artillery +1 to hit if your enemy applied a -1, however, it's irrelevant, the new rule states 'unmodified hits of 1-3' which means it doesn't matter what your + is, you're still auto failing on >3. At least, that's how I understand it.
people always complain that reinforcements and indirect fire were never fun to play against but I find alpha strike armies not fun to play against I don't see gw nurfing them
Just wanted to add that Sly Marbo is regiment, he gets lethals
Oh snap... how did I forget that?! I even did a video on it 🤣
That and he's probably one of the best reinforcement targets in Pariah Nexus. He just does actions and racks up points all day. If he dies just spend the 2cp and bring him back in an empty area to keep scoring points.
@@ghost9pm407 I would argue that a scion command squad being warlord would be the best to bring back turn 5 in the enemy deployment zone, instant secret mission! But that means no lord Solar so it has it's drawbacks.
@@karlnygren Oh yeah that's a great use also. I haven't had too much trouble scoring Primary but it's nice to have the option for the Secret Mission in your back pocket.
I'm also running 6 squads of Scions so I've been leaving the Lord Solar at home. I find that the two Tank Commanders I use give me some extra punch and also sufficient order support for my Vanilla Russes, who would probably fine without them anyway because of their built-in re-rolls.
@@ghost9pm407 yeah, with LR battletanks take aim isn't really necessary (until degraded) but +3" move is great. I've been thinking of having those in a "pure" scion army as well since they have the same rule 😁
My tank orders primarily go to my Dorn, making a good tank great.
On the sentinel thing, I don't know how the 1-3 limit couldn't be a penalty, and also if it still applies, then the other part of the rule essentially does nothing as it would generally be allowing artillery to hit on 3s. Interested to see where they go with that one. If the hit roll limiter does still apply then daring recon needs a full re-write, maybe re-rolls to hit instead or something.
Honestly I have a really bitter taste in my mouth. I have two Combat Patrol boxes and a Dorn, and it feels like the only thing that's worth a damn now is the Dorn. Infantry is free VP to the enemy, so I don't want to bring that. FOBs I can't buff into reliability anymore. Sentinels... okay, I can group those and have a worthwhile use for my ONE Reinforcements strat. But it's really a bad feeling to feel like al this time and money I've spent building and painting half my collection is now wasted.
Look guard sucks right now but it won’t always be like this, in the future there will be another balance change and guard will get a codex
That hasn't been my experience. My infantry gets work done. They tie up my opponent and score me major points. Sometimes they pop out with Meltas and just waste the enemy.
Sentinels are AMAZING.
FOBs are okay and can work well in mass.
Tanks are also good but not OP. I usually smash all tank lists with a combined arms guard list.
That's just my experience though. Sorry to hear about yours.
Hard disagree, 20 Krieg with a marshal are hard to kill and deal decent damage, my rough riders do work, gaunts ghost's are amazing for scoring. Guard was in an alright place before but now i think we are gone winning bigly.
Infantry are your area denial units. They will die, and they will tend to do little damage before they do, BUT you can use them to screen and stand on circles, so your heavy hitters don't need to sit on hotspots and also don't have to worry about surprise flanks.
@@IronCow8 Krieg with a marshall.. arent hard to kill if you look at other armies tanky infantry units. Kriegsmen get killed by everythin which has dmg 2. They are still fragile.
Another question, does things that remove BS and hit modifiers negate the 1 to 3 always fail rule? Like mortarian and dark reapers exarch? As that is modifying the hit?
Modifiers are explained better in the Rules Commentary document. Any change to a number is a modifier, including making it 0 rather than doing plus or minus. So for the always miss, I am.unsure though.
I still think the Sentinel indirect fails on 1-3. They changed the rules for a reason, the sentinel ability was written way before this update right? Indirect hit rolls "always" fail on an "unmodified" 1-3. It doesn't seem like a penalty to me. The sentinel ability makes it a modified hit roll. I could be wrong, I'm a new player but I feel like the rule change just came out, so the sentinel ability only applies to smokescreen or -1 to hit rolls like Vanguard Spearhead.
I've reconsidered my previous understanding of the Indirect Fire changes. Reading through the Indirect Fire rule the automatic miss on a roll of a 1, 2, or 3 is explained in the penalties paragraph. When you look at the Daring Recon ability of the Scout Sentinel it removes the penalty for the Indirect Fire weapon ability. If it removed the benefit of Cover and the -1 to hit previously there is nothing saying the auto miss wouldn't get included in the "penalty." Somebody red team this for me.
heres the thing: the cover got FAQed and does not get affected by it
As I see it, the Scout Sentinels' Daring Recon ability should still wipe the -1 to hit and the Hellhounds' Flush Them Out ability should still wipe benefit of cover. The intent as I can see is Indirect Fire weapons get a coin flip and that's the best you can hope for.
No more mailing love letters across the board. Just put those orders, stratagems, and +1 to hits somewhere else.
"Unmodified" hit rolls of 1-3 always fail. Am I missing something here? What is a modified hit roll?
Unmodified means what is shown on the die, modified is after modifiers like heavy. So unmodified means 1-3 always misses in this case
@karlnygren that's what I thought. Maybe I'm dense, I'm just not seeing the issue here. With orders and sentinel recon how does this change matter?
@@chazzledazzle89 Because in spite of those "modifiers" orders and daring recon, artillery shooting indirectly will always miss on a 1-3 no matter what.
Gonna need an FAQ on that Sentinel spotting. Because, the scout sentinel should go down in points if half the abilities it has are now useless
doesnt change much for me. didn't had any artillery units before and used the sentinel for reroll 1 to hit alone. but yeah for indirect it does less than before. only helpfull vs stealth units now
IMO, Born Soldiers should work on infantry or vehicles depending on the strength of the weapon firing, not the kind of model firing. The heavy stubbers on a Rogal Dorn shouldn’t be better at killing tanks than infantry.
Str 6 and below, non-monster and non-vehicle. Str 7 and higher, monsters and vehicles.
Only super disappointing result of that I can think of quickly is no Autocannon Lethals against Terminators.
I think they will call it a restriction to avoid confusion...
this born soldier change clearly buffs my towed artillerys so its not that bad to be honest, as they hit on 5+ and can hit on 4+ with an order. but for a basilisk a 30-50% point decrease should have happened as they are nearly useless now as they could hit on 2+ with modifiers so they basicly went from 83% hit chanse to 66% which is dogshit. But bombast field gun is not affected by negative changes so I dunno why the point decrease, but its a wellcome change for sure. as death strike is not considered indirect now I have a reason to put 3 of em in a 2k point game
The way i interpret the new IDF rule is that the scout sentinel will allow our Basilisk and Manticore to hit on 3s with heavy. It specifies an unmodified hit roll. Heavy is a modification, therefore allowing it to negate that secondary penalty.
Unmodified means what is showing on the die before any modifiers, thus 1-3 always misses even if our modifier (heavy) would have helped us.
@@karlnygren ah, so this is where a clarification from GW would be helpful lol
Wholeheartedly disagree that the reinforcements nerf will make the game as a whole better. I think it removes a thematic aspect of the game and in the case of tyranids unending swarm, it completely destroys an entire detachment. Guard can survive without it, but it’s still less thematic. There are better ways to fix it. It’s a heavy handed change that GW made to fit the pariah nexus mission pack in my opinion. You know, Instead of designing your mission pack around the game, have the company drunk write some rules and change the game to fit the mission pack.
It's over for pure infantry players
Good thing I have a backup 2000pts of armor
Reinforcements being changed is not good, they should've made it where you just can't bring them from the enemy's deployment zone
Daring Recon doesn't stop the new indirect ruling. This is very widely stated by every competitive channel and will likely be the exact same stance of every TO
So many of the changes seem arbitrary and primarily because the models are used successfully. Ages ago Epic40k had statlines that were produced by a formula. So 5cm of movement was worth 5 points, shooting at 5+ at 50cm range was worth 20 points, 5 points for each pip on the die and 5 points for each 25 cm of range. So the base statlines made sense, then they focused on balancing the special rules. Making Netepic nowadays one of the most balanced systems. Also, curiously enough, Armageddon as well.
Fun fact, Sly Marbo has the regiment keyword
Yeah, did the video and then totally forgot 😅
No daring recon does not work anymore, you still get re roll of 1’s. Let’s not twist words or meanings. We all know what GW meant.
Aye. A penalty to the roll would change the roll or the target number (which while effectively what it does isn't quite that), in a similar way that torrent isn't a bonus to the hit roll, it's just a rule that effects (well in that case replaces) the hit roll
Them making the.lethal hits thing complicated is so dumb. Not to mention how many of the Taus units are vehicles?
Oh lovely they reclassified all the crisis suits as vehicles too. This actually kinda feels like a buff to the militarum against tau because all squadron units just got lethal hits forever
For sure dude. But guard battle line is now just a waste of time. Thematically it's just woeful as well.
@@parko246 well hold up there. 20 bodies is still 20 bodies and they have lethal hits against anything that isn't vehicles or monsters forever now. I say swap the meltas for grenade launchers and enjoy the extra blast shots that you can roll 6s on. forget about taking anti-tank on the infantry if because if you really need it you can just grenade stratagem and get as much dakka as possible for infantry. helps with the green tide spam too.
The Always Miss for indirect is not going to be classified a penalty. I think you are trying to stretch too much for Daring Recon; its wishful thinking on your part. Prepare yourself for disappointment. I say this as a guard player. The change they needed to make and failed to: Scout Sentinels needed to have Daring Recon simply provide Rerolls to Hit when firing Indirect Fire weapons when the target is not visible.
Another way to look at the Punisher is to put Multimeltas in the sponsons and a lascannon in the hull to go vehicle hunting, and the punisher cannon for infantry. See, Lethal Hits and Devastating Wounds is a nonbo. Seen from a certain light, this is not a nerf at all. It does suck that you aren't getting Lethal on the heavy bolters and stubber, but it kind of helps the punisher a bit.
Not a huge fan of the pivot rule for round bases. No penalty for pivoting. Looking at Dark eldar raiders and such can deploy length ways on the line, pivot for free and gain 2 inches.
Daring recon should remove the 1 to 3 penalty, although I think intended vs written will change this. GW hates indirect (almost as much as they hate aircraft)
I’m not going to lie this update made me very sad. I’m an infantry guard commander at heart and I feel like I lost the throw in the next wave ability.
Yeah, but with the changes to the Paroah Nexus missions, Battleline appear to be absolutely key. I think they are still going to shine.
@@CadianSergeantSteel no matter how sad I am that I lost what I loved, I’m happy my friends who have Custodes and Nids are super happy. It all evens out in the end. Hopefully we get a codex soon so I can get what I want.
@@CadianSergeantSteel battleline will also give your opponents free VP especially sqhishy guard units.
This uodate to the game makes me feel like my thoughts may have been confirmed:
This edition isnt for us, this edition is for gw to completely relearn 40k. 11th is gonna be for us (the playerbase).
I feel these changes are ill-thought.
Baneblade etc, no lethals.
Tank commander, not a born soldier apparently, no lethals.
Anti-tank hvy weap infantry, no lethals vs tanks.
Anti-infantry tanks, no lethals vs infantry.
Reinforcements was a crutch, kicked away, could have easily been made simply setup in deployment area only, or a version of sites of power in mid table, control the obj, can set up.
Ratling snipers and Ogryn, no lethals.
Chimeras filled with navy breachers with free Creed grenade strat could be fun.
* preator lost its ability completly in practice
Breachers aren't Regiment 😢
My Poor Mecharius Vulchan no lethal hits for you ): , Now however a Malacador defender with lethal hits on over watch now that could be cool. Any overwatch in general benefiting.
I feel like I might have to balance my army with squadron units more because if i can't lethal hit my way though vehicles and monsters I might have a hard time. Also the hazardous change scares me unless I mis understood wherever the mortal wounds will spill over.
The indirect fire changes would have me believe you could play your artillery more mobile now and risk getting into direct los for the weapons. You could use scout sentinels just so you cancel the -1 to hit so you'd mostly be hitting on a 4+ if your mobile then if you stay stationary later the heavy would just cancel out any accuracy nerfs/stealth related nerfs. & still give you those rerolls of 1's. You could move around with the benefit of still having lethal hits and maybe play some backline objective or some long distance direct line of sight. I'd be less inclined to play the backline solar buff artillery blob. Especially with not needing the extra cp for reinforcements.
That's the kind of thinking of a general. I like it! 🫡
The mortal wounds from hazardous are per model and do not spill over, they work like devastating wounds do now. So with a little luck a Kriegsman can survive his plasma blowing up (three 5+ if the Marshal is watching).
And I also think the game will be a little different with moving artillery. Heavy bolter and hunter killers will be fired more now, especially since they get lethal as well.
u only get lethals with your defender vs vehiles.. with heavy bolters^^
@@karlnygren Thanks for that clarification on the hazardous.
I hadn't even got around to thinking about deep striking or units arriving from reserves with lethal hits. Oh that sounds so scary against the right target.
I guess with it being called the Combined arms detachment its further to design for the future.
Great video. Thank you!
Do you own heavy weapons teams? I've never seen them
Like... 15 or 16 of the old kits fully painted. I have 9 of the new ones, but my painting isn't finished yet. Soon though. I am doing Autocannons and Mortars first. Heavy Bolters will probably be next.
@@CadianSergeantSteel Nice, I've been stalking instagram for them. I started with missiles first. Just no tripod.
Great video! Thank you for keeping a fellow guard player updated.
My pleasure! For Cadia! For the Emperor!
Hence why i stopped collecting 40K a year ago. They change it so many times its impossible to get an army and stay competitive. It's all designed to get you to buy what they want you to buy. They balance on money spreadsheets, what is selling and what isn't and how much people are willing to buy it for. Such a shame but not getting into a game when they do that.
The no lethals on baneblades lacks commonsense
It's a bummer but... oh well. They shoot well anyhow into vehicles and monsters even without lethals. Maybe it will all come out in the wash.
Its a bit funny that you use sly as example of a loone character when hes the only character with regiment keyword 😊
Of I'm going to fuck up, I'm going to do so gloriously 🤣
We have one more character with Regiment actually, the scion command squad. I'm thinking of having them as my warlord (if I don't bring Solar), have them killed and then use reinforcement to deep strike the warlord into the enemy deployment zone as a last turn Secret Mission win 😁
Reinforcements with cp then again with creed in a single turn gone really hurts
Creed can't do her ability on Reinforcements because for Creed the target unit has to be on the table and within 12", and with Reinforcements they are no longer on the table to be within range of Creed.
@@CadianSergeantSteel ahhh I, I always thought it was a strategem that went off as the unit is destroyed so technically it's still on the battlefield
Daring recon is intended to remove the penalties of indirect fire. Hit on 2+ with the right combos.
I think the reinforcements change was needed with the change to Creed's reduce strategem cost by 1 ability. Creed would be able to hand out 1 cp reinforcements all game (
On the last part about the Baneblade, which change allows that?
@@CadianSergeantSteel I think I heard in the GW video that titanic units can move through terrain now asl long as they finish outside the terrain. Will check after work today
@@CadianSergeantSteel I think I was mistaken so sorry! I will edit my comment
You couldn't use the minus one cp on reinforcements since they are destroyed and removed from the battlefield, that makes them too far away for the ability
@karlnygren agreed
It's not a penalty any more than overwatch hitting only on 6's
Indirect fire weapons out, Sentinel spam incoming!
It's tank time. *nods sagely*
This doesn't help new people just starting to play before this happened lol
Interesting outro
I'm not that experienced (only been playing for 6 months all spent with guard) but this ruins guard! Our infantry is useless unless it's in 20 man blobs and our artillery is terrible. I have had to fall down on reinforcements, born soldiers and artillery just to draw a game. I know people are going to say "skill issue" but I have been tabled by dark eldar too many times to deal with this! Game workshop are making guard unplayable!
That has not been my experience, to be honest. I have found guard very playable and competent at winning both casual and competitive games.
@@CadianSergeantSteel 1000 point games aren't as balanced as 2000 point games, maybe you play more of those?
Cant say i play against dark eldar often but i think “tarpitting” in the midfield with infantry and hammering with tanks works fairly well against most enemies. Sad to lose the reenforcments but you might do well to bring a few more waves of troops and cut the arty for more tank fire like rogal dorns😊
Do GW pay you - seriously reinforcement only once per game. Infantry are longer any threat and will just be mowed down. Artillery is being nerved out of the game. Infantry and arty nerved- gutting two of our three pillars. Seriously you are right off the mark. Scout sentent ability will be nerved as all arty is soon to be nerved out of the game, like fliers.
Do you need a hug? Sounds like you need a hug.
@@CadianSergeantSteel😂