My m97 (3.8 x51) in my 997 had bore scoring. Sent it to Flat 6 Innovations for a rebuild with Nikasil liners and enlarged to 4.3 litres. Got it back a few weeks ago and it’s absolutely stunning. >450bhp and 400ftlb, it now pulls like a train from 3000 rpm and is stupidly fast. Love it!
@@harryberry474 unfortunately, it could be one of those “if you have to ask, then you probably can’t afford it” situations. In the end, the car has cost me more than if I had just bought a similar GT3 (back in 2016) instead. I have a 991.2 GT3 and wanted my 997 to be more of a daily driver, so I spec’d a much torquier motor and whilst it has cost me the earth, it is a very unique, special and reliable daily now. They only build ~12 of these motors per year, but their 4.0 version is much more popular and I think runs around $30k.
I'd like to finally see a solution that can be done reasonably. It's completely silly in the US prices to do this repair correctly are $10K-20K+. It doesn't seem that in Europe that it's quite this bad. These are amazing cars with amazing engines. We need to find real, affordable solutions. Thank you.
Yeah in the PCA video they said that the cost is $15k-$20k for just the rebuild. Factoring in all the other labor and parts, it would basically be the cost of a higher mileage 987.1 Cayman S just to rebuild an engine. Even a "cheap" rebuild is like $10k. It's insane.
I owned a base 2.7 which doesn't seem to suffer this problem. However, if you own a 3.4, remember that bore scoring is still not that common. Don't let it detract from the experience of owning the wonderful cars.
@fcpeuro - Guys, this is NOT a rear-engined 911, it's a mid-engine Cayman. The engine is turned around with the transmission towards the rear of the car for goodness sakes. You're looking at Bank#2, cylinder#6, NOT Cylinder#1. And, this explains why the engine is suffering because Bank 2 of the M9X engines is where Bore Scoring usually occurs more times than not. The M97 S-model engines on the Boxster and Cayman suffer horribly from the problem.
Great video. To be clear, it is my understanding that the lokasil is not a coating like nikasil. The lokasil is not worn away to bare aluminum here. The scoring is due to loss of the coating on the piston skirt and subsequent galling. I would love to see you do a rebuild video as your videos are among the best in the business.
good video and explanation, but this is not a (only) cayman issue. i change oil every 6 months and a sample to Blackstone Labs. One suggestion is when you start the car, drive it, don't let it warm up. Agree short start/stops don't help. My 2007 Cayman S has 117K, so far so good. thx for the video.
I've has a 2007 987.1 S since new. Just hit 80k. I'm convinced this issue has gone down the ims-like pit of internet despair. Does it happen with more frequency than SOME other engines? probably. Is "every M97 a ticking time-bomb"? lol hell...what engine isn't in some way. One thing I have gathered though. You absolutely cannot abuse these engines like you can a smallblock chevy or most Toyota engines etc. If you want to bounce off the rev limiter daily, or track it, hope you have the funds. I enjoy the hell out of this car and have for many years. I'll continue to do so. I've never replaced shift cables, engines, air oil seperators or anything out of the ordinary. Aside from regular maintenace, I've done 1 window regulator under warranty. Thats it. One interesting fact, this problem is nearly unheard of on S model tiptronics. Why do you think that is?
It's fuel quality I am betting , plus a little bit of how it is taken care of. Bad fuel gums up the injectors, screws up spray patterns and the fuel does not atomize fully or properly. Fuel in the combustion chamber (liquid fuel) washed down the cylinder wall and removed the thin coating of oil and allows it to wear faster. Gravity does some of it too. Notice the wear is on the top of the wall in this video. Run quality fuels, clean/replace or service injectors and change your oil frequently (not insanely but then again not every 10K )... best of luck to all...especially the afflicted ..it's a very expensive repair and in most cases more than the value of the car on some of the 987.1's
That's similar to me, 2006 boxster s 120k miles, tipomatic, and so far so good , replaced the wear and tear but no major problems! Don't race, tracks, just cruise around topdown in paradise! Aloha from Hawaii MK, another Mat!
💯 of the way to prevent this is to buy a BMW US Spec M3. Solid S52 engine that’s a blast to drive and ultra reliable. Purchased mine for $8k. Imagine spending $60k for a 911 and then a few years down the line $35k for an engine rebuild. Thats crazy!!
Your calling that cylinder 1? The left rear cylinder on a Cayman? Based on all the illustrations and videos I've seen that would be bank 2 cylinder 6. I think you were thinking about 911 cylinder layout where the left rear is cylinder 1. On M96 & M97 engines #6 is the one that scoring generally shows up first.
I think I'd want to scope every cylinder to see what I was dealing with. If all other cylinders look good, there would be be a much more reasonable cost to just repair the one. Plus, a guy might want to NOT DRIVE THE CAR anymore until the one cylinder was repaired.
It would be very foolish to do only one cylinder as the other five are on borrowed time and it is a big job. I wrenched for 47 years at a dealership level and we would not do that and if done it definitely would be on the customer with no warranty.
A good machine shop can sleeve anything if you have the money. They can even cut universal sleeves to fit the application. I guess it comes down to what you're willing to spend
Yes, there a video series by PCA done about four months ago that goes over this pretty well. Non-S Caymans and Boxsters as well as S Boxsters up to 2006 have cast pistons and aren’t susceptible to bore scoring.
I was wondering that also, wonder if they are confusing with the 911 layout. 1-2-3 is on the right bank which is on the right side of the car in the case of a Cayman. Were they actually scoping 6 which is the more common cylinder to fail first?
Oh ya the problem is the owners driving their cars on "short trips"....lol. If you are not going to immediately get on the hwy and drive it for 100 kms then why are you buying a Porsche. The excuses Porsche fans make for Porsches is hilarious. I was really considering a Cayman S or 997 but now...hard pass. Thinking Lexus LC 500. Usually the worst cylinder is is 6. If number one is that bad I cannot imagine how 6 looks.
no, its 987 S engines from 2005-2008...dude said "Porsche Engines are fragile plain and simple" dont be a dumbass amd co sign the bullshit@@mecheng1977
I have a POS Honda Civic that’s rusted out and has 225k. Engine runs and screams like a champ w those little 125HP. Bought for $3k years ago. Porsche 911 is $60k and $35k for a rebuild. Hard pass!!
My m97 (3.8 x51) in my 997 had bore scoring.
Sent it to Flat 6 Innovations for a rebuild with Nikasil liners and enlarged to 4.3 litres.
Got it back a few weeks ago and it’s absolutely stunning.
>450bhp and 400ftlb, it now pulls like a train from 3000 rpm and is stupidly fast. Love it!
How much did that run you?
How much did it cost?
@@harryberry474 unfortunately, it could be one of those “if you have to ask, then you probably can’t afford it” situations.
In the end, the car has cost me more than if I had just bought a similar GT3 (back in 2016) instead.
I have a 991.2 GT3 and wanted my 997 to be more of a daily driver, so I spec’d a much torquier motor and whilst it has cost me the earth, it is a very unique, special and reliable daily now.
They only build ~12 of these motors per year, but their 4.0 version is much more popular and I think runs around $30k.
So how much was your 4.3L rebuild?@@I999-g2s
I'm guessing $30k, but it sounds like it was worth it.
I'd like to finally see a solution that can be done reasonably. It's completely silly in the US prices to do this repair correctly are $10K-20K+. It doesn't seem that in Europe that it's quite this bad. These are amazing cars with amazing engines. We need to find real, affordable solutions. Thank you.
I hope porsche will do something to help us when they finally decide to make it a “classic”. I just hope my car makes it to that point.
Yeah in the PCA video they said that the cost is $15k-$20k for just the rebuild. Factoring in all the other labor and parts, it would basically be the cost of a higher mileage 987.1 Cayman S just to rebuild an engine. Even a "cheap" rebuild is like $10k. It's insane.
Still 10k+ in the UK. Unless you can pull the engine yourself, maybe £6k then.
@@spyder_man
Yikes! There must be a better way for us all. Otherwise these amazing cars are just going to disappear. That would be a complete shame.
I owned a base 2.7 which doesn't seem to suffer this problem. However, if you own a 3.4, remember that bore scoring is still not that common. Don't let it detract from the experience of owning the wonderful cars.
@fcpeuro - Guys, this is NOT a rear-engined 911, it's a mid-engine Cayman. The engine is turned around with the transmission towards the rear of the car for goodness sakes. You're looking at Bank#2, cylinder#6, NOT Cylinder#1. And, this explains why the engine is suffering because Bank 2 of the M9X engines is where Bore Scoring usually occurs more times than not. The M97 S-model engines on the Boxster and Cayman suffer horribly from the problem.
We want a sequel! ;-)
Great video. To be clear, it is my understanding that the lokasil is not a coating like nikasil. The lokasil is not worn away to bare aluminum here. The scoring is due to loss of the coating on the piston skirt and subsequent galling. I would love to see you do a rebuild video as your videos are among the best in the business.
good video and explanation, but this is not a (only) cayman issue. i change oil every 6 months and a sample to Blackstone Labs. One suggestion is when you start the car, drive it, don't let it warm up. Agree short start/stops don't help. My 2007 Cayman S has 117K, so far so good. thx for the video.
I've has a 2007 987.1 S since new. Just hit 80k. I'm convinced this issue has gone down the ims-like pit of internet despair. Does it happen with more frequency than SOME other engines? probably. Is "every M97 a ticking time-bomb"? lol hell...what engine isn't in some way. One thing I have gathered though. You absolutely cannot abuse these engines like you can a smallblock chevy or most Toyota engines etc. If you want to bounce off the rev limiter daily, or track it, hope you have the funds. I enjoy the hell out of this car and have for many years. I'll continue to do so. I've never replaced shift cables, engines, air oil seperators or anything out of the ordinary. Aside from regular maintenace, I've done 1 window regulator under warranty. Thats it. One interesting fact, this problem is nearly unheard of on S model tiptronics. Why do you think that is?
It's fuel quality I am betting , plus a little bit of how it is taken care of. Bad fuel gums up the injectors, screws up spray patterns and the fuel does not atomize fully or properly. Fuel in the combustion chamber (liquid fuel) washed down the cylinder wall and removed the thin coating of oil and allows it to wear faster. Gravity does some of it too. Notice the wear is on the top of the wall in this video. Run quality fuels, clean/replace or service injectors and change your oil frequently (not insanely but then again not every 10K )... best of luck to all...especially the afflicted ..it's a very expensive repair and in most cases more than the value of the car on some of the 987.1's
That's similar to me, 2006 boxster s 120k miles, tipomatic, and so far so good , replaced the wear and tear but no major problems! Don't race, tracks, just cruise around topdown in paradise! Aloha from Hawaii MK, another Mat!
Sorry for your loss…😢
Least expensive way to detect bore score (and other issues) is to do regular oil sample analysis.
The bore scoring starts at the bottom. The first place to look is the oil pan side. Big money to sleeve. 14k or more....
I just got a 2006 Cayman S, OMGeeee I hope mine doesn't do this !!!! Thanks -m
💯 of the way to prevent this is to buy a BMW US Spec M3. Solid S52 engine that’s a blast to drive and ultra reliable. Purchased mine for $8k. Imagine spending $60k for a 911 and then a few years down the line $35k for an engine rebuild. Thats crazy!!
👀
Your calling that cylinder 1? The left rear cylinder on a Cayman? Based on all the illustrations and videos I've seen that would be bank 2 cylinder 6. I think you were thinking about 911 cylinder layout where the left rear is cylinder 1. On M96 & M97 engines #6 is the one that scoring generally shows up first.
So what are next steps you would recommend to the owner? Just curious.
You guys should do a video about cylinder scoring on Mercedes 278 engines with silitec cylinder lining
I think I'd want to scope every cylinder to see what I was dealing with. If all other cylinders look good, there would be be a much more reasonable cost to just repair the one. Plus, a guy might want to NOT DRIVE THE CAR anymore until the one cylinder was repaired.
It would be very foolish to do only one cylinder as the other five are on borrowed time and it is a big job. I wrenched for 47 years at a dealership level and we would not do that and if done it definitely would be on the customer with no warranty.
Exactly what Nickpappas4133 said. You wouldn’t do all that work just to replace one cylinder and piston. It’s difficult decision time for the owner.
Can you post a link to that borescope, like stated in the video? Thanks!
Probably the Cal-Van 84. ua-cam.com/video/4lMYXF12G3E/v-deo.html
It is listed on their website (FCP Euro): Cal-Van Tools WiFi Borescope CV84
Thanks
Same issues for the 997.1 S versions. Locasil + too much bore = heat issues = oil consumption = new block or liners = €€€
Been there. Crappy design.
Moment of silence for the owner...and the current owners whose cars are depreciating like crazy.
What can be/should be done to save this engine.??
Time for Hartech or LN treatment on that cylinder.
Just got a (very cheap) Cayman S with a blown motor that was caused almost certainly because of this
I'll bet Mike Hidalgo has another pair of socks just like the ones he's wearing at home!
So is the block need replacement or does it have individual cylinders like the older air cooled engines?
A good machine shop can sleeve anything if you have the money. They can even cut universal sleeves to fit the application. I guess it comes down to what you're willing to spend
Come on porsche! We expect better for their money!
Fix it!!
They seem to say that bore scoring doesn't affect the non-S Boxster/Caymans. Is that true?
Yes, there a video series by PCA done about four months ago that goes over this pretty well. Non-S Caymans and Boxsters as well as S Boxsters up to 2006 have cast pistons and aren’t susceptible to bore scoring.
@@K1dPhresh1 Thanks for directing me to those videos!
@@w210amgmercedes2 no problem! They’re very informative.
2005 & 2006 3.2L motors don't exhibit this problem
this is incorrect info of why scoring happens, it's by default bad material chosen by Porsche for their engine manufacturing.
Was that cylinder 1 or 4?
I was wondering that also, wonder if they are confusing with the 911 layout. 1-2-3 is on the right bank which is on the right side of the car in the case of a Cayman. Were they actually scoping 6 which is the more common cylinder to fail first?
@@arthurmchan I think so... 😉
Once you see those marks on the bore, its basically totaled lol
This should have been a 5 min vid.
Oh ya the problem is the owners driving their cars on "short trips"....lol. If you are not going to immediately get on the hwy and drive it for 100 kms then why are you buying a Porsche. The excuses Porsche fans make for Porsches is hilarious. I was really considering a Cayman S or 997 but now...hard pass. Thinking Lexus LC 500. Usually the worst cylinder is is 6. If number one is that bad I cannot imagine how 6 looks.
😅
Porsche engines are fragile plain and simple, they all have major mechanical issues which requires rebuilding
literally not true lol
Regarding their boxster engines yes
no, its 987 S engines from 2005-2008...dude said "Porsche Engines are fragile plain and simple" dont be a dumbass amd co sign the bullshit@@mecheng1977
I have a POS Honda Civic that’s rusted out and has 225k. Engine runs and screams like a champ w those little 125HP. Bought for $3k years ago. Porsche 911 is $60k and $35k for a rebuild. Hard pass!!