What bore scoring is & why it can happen to 1999-08 Porsche 911s, Boxsters, & Caymans | 1 of 4
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- Опубліковано 29 бер 2023
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You may have heard of cylinder bore scoring as it relates to the Porsche 911, Boxster, or Cayman built for the 1997-2008 model years, but chances are you don't know the full story. In this first of four videos about bore scoring, Charles Navarro of LN Engineering and Tribologist Lake Speed, Jr. of Total Seal Piston Rings explain what bore scoring is and why it happens. Plus, find out why the 3.4-, 3.6-, and 3.8-liter M96/M967 engines in the 1999-2008 911 Carrera/4/S/4S, 2006-2008 Cayman S, 2007-2008 Boxster S are more susceptible to bore scoring than the 2.5-, 3.2-, and 2.7-liter engines in the 1997-2008 Boxster, 2000-2006 Boxster S, and 2007-2008 Cayman.
Other videos in this series:
Part 2: Block and cylinder surface geometries, and the contributing factors to bore scoring: • Block & bore surface g...
Part 3: How to prevent or slow the progression of bore scoring in your Porsche: • How to prevent or slow...
Part 4: How to fix bore scoring in your Porsche: • How to fix bore scorin...
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Great topic, Vu! Sometimes I get lost in all the jargon and engine model numbers. I appreciate how you kept the conversation at a level that I understand. Someone made a great choice when they hired you!!
A wealth of useful information every Porsche 996/997 owner or prospectus one should watch.
Really informative and done in a very understandable way. Another 4 star session by PCA and the experts.
What a fantastic introduction to this topic! Knowledge is power!
Outstanding episode. Great information and understandable. Thank you PCA for all you do for the Porsche community.
It is out pleasure! Thank you for kind words. Means a lot to us.
Wow, really love the in depth information. Good work guys explaining everything in a condensed way 🤩
Glad you liked it!
Great video, clears up so much of the confusing information out there.
As a sidenote, never been more glad I got the base 2.7 Cayman than an S!
Me too......And it was just dumb luck that I found a 2.7 and got it. Black/black with a manual, that was good enough for me!
Watching this series for the future 997 i will own, thank you for such an informative video guys!
Thank you so much for explaining this very serious engine problem so that even I can understand. You guys are the BEST !!!!!
Our pleasure!
Great episode. I've heard the term and even had it explained to me before, but I never understood it until now. Looking forward to parts 2-4. "PCA University" is the best education out there. "Professors" Speed and Navarro are so good at this kind of content. And Vu does an excellent job asking all the questions that we want to know. Great job PCA!!
Scary great episode! So much important information.
You guys really need to consider having Lake, Charles, and Nathan conduct onstage sessions at Werks Reunion.
Great and very informative video looking forward to the next episodes.
Great video, I love the wealth of knowledge that is shared within the PCA community.
I've got a '05 Boxster S...I am so relieved!! Cast pistons! 🙏Thanks for this great video!
Right on
I love the content. Now i understand why my 500hp Vette is my daily and my 997.1 is the garage queen. My first 911 was a 74. Came apart after 30k miles. I have been burned so many times i must be a masochist.
This greatly helped me in targeting which Porsche to buy.
Glad you found it useful!
Great video, please keep more coming like this!
Gotta love Lake, Good info always.
Thanks for sharing. Great episode Vu
Glad you enjoyed it.
Super enlightening, well done.
Glad it was helpful!
Very informative, thanks for explaining!
Glad it was helpful!
I thought bore scoring happened even in 3.6 06 boxter until I watched this vid. Now I am a little less scared, such an informative video. Thank you guys
'06 Boxster S is 3.2L with the Iron plating mentioned in this video! A small win for the 3.2!
My 1989 Carrera 3.2 actually had alusil cylinders from the factory. With I tore it down it looked pretty good well into 6 digit mileage. The skirts on the factory cast pistons started to get a little worn, but it looked like it was honed with a few very minor scratches. The cylinders all looked like new.
The Alusil cylinders used on your aircooled 911 were made using a difference process and the pistons had an iron clad coating which would appear to be much more durable. FWIW, we've never seen one of those score.
very informative on the origins of the bore score issue. Interested in the repair process/costs to repair the issue and determine if it should be done sooner vs. later. (Big fan of Driven Oil and fuel stabilizer)
Thanks! You'll want to pay attention to videos #3 and #4 (Saturday and Sunday) for the info about prevention, slowing down bore scoring if your car has it, and, finally, fixing it when fixing becomes necessary.
Crazy how common bore scoring is on these model years and yet people still think they won't get burned. The amount of C2S's and M96's in general I've seen with bore scoring is unreal. Be careful..
It’s being overshadowed by the IMS bearing issue. At least with the IMS issue, you can fix it before it fails.
This seems much worse in my opinion…
Only 1-3% of all cars made were affected…. If you are buying a high mile 911 chances are it’s better than one with 10k miles
I've watched this series a couple of times and now I'm wondering a few things. 1. Does it matter if it's Alusil or Lokasil if the bore surface that the piston sees is the same? 2. Was the bore scoring problem with the '97-'08 cars listed really more of a problem with the piston skirt coating process? 3. What did Porsche do differently with the materials in the 987.2 and 997.2 generations? 4. What are they using today in the 992 and 718?
Excellent video! Can you do a video on properly checking oil level on 993? Oil gauge vs dipstick, how much to add to top off etc. Would be very helpful!
We'll put it on the list.
Thank you. I just learned from this that my 2010 2.9 base Cayman is basically a Toyota Camry🤣
Hi guys, I have just come across your channel and must say I have found it so informative. I am looking (tomorrow) at a January 2006 Porsche Boxster S. Based on what you know is this the one with the better “Cast Pistons” which didn’t have the bore score issue? And would this have the larger single row IMS which had less issues then the earlier single row? I use to own a 1997 Boxster base model and never had any issue and truth be told, didn’t know about the issue back then either. Now I am ready for a 987 S, any guidance would be really appreciated as some of the horror stories about some models can be daunting. Thank you.
Great info! I don't own anything with these particular engines (yet), but it's great info nonetheless. Thanks!
Thank you for this. I bought my 99 996 3 years ago. Did not get the engine checked over. So of course a tad concerned. Mayhaps start doing the engine oil analysis.
Yes, oil analysis is the best place to start. Damon has used Speediagnostix on his Cayman with good results, and you will see his oil analysis in future videos...
Great video ,, from 2009 to present does the base cayman have many issues ?.
Very informative!
Glad it was helpful!
I'm so glad I got the 3.2 s
Is the newer 997.2 (DFI 9A1 engine) less prone to bore scoring ?
Would ceramic coating the pistons help prevent even starting bore scoring?
Bore scoring is happening in the 9A1 engine as well
good stuff!
Glad you liked it!
Does the ims bearing prevent bore scoring?
does the base 3.4 996 also have cast pistons or forged?
How do you know if your oil is up to temp? I have a 07 Cayman S without oil temperature monitor.
I've had a thought on why bore-scoring happens that is very likely wrong, but it does explain some things. What if the scoring is caused by a failing dual mass flywheel? The vibrations would be worse the closer to the flywheel, so that explains number 6 being a problem first. (Other reasons can contribute.) Also, the vibration damping properties, like a harmonic balancer, are mostly required at low rpms. At high rpms, the flywheel sort of self-straightens and the damping properties arn't needed nearly so much, if at all. That may be why driving like Aunt Martha is worse for the engine as far as bore-scoring is concerned. Also, using a solid mass lightened flywheel for the track would not need damping as the engine is primarily driven at high rpms not to mention the low mileage accumulated compared to a street car. Might not be a valid reason, but as nobody seems to know for sure, I suppose it could have merit. I wonder on bore-scored repaired engines if the flywheel was found to be bad....
6:44 something I have said all along. Exactly what happens when you have conrods at sharp angles to the vertical or in this case for boxer engines, the horizontal plane.
Can you do a bit about how to read an oil sample. Maybe do 3 of your cars and tell us how to read them. Thanks 🙏
Good suggestion. We might not yet have a video on this, but we do have very detailed information on used oil analysis and how to read the results (and what to look for) on the LN Engineering website here: lnengineering.com/products/speediagnostix-used-oil-analysis.html
Would a hypereutectic piston be a better choice for a rebuild?
About 20 minutes long and no one mentions how common this problem is? That's key. Will it happen to some degree on every M96 and M97 engine, or only a small percentage?
maybe I missed it but there was a statement that you'd share how to potentially prevent it and all I heard was "keep it lubed". Well, apparently this happens to models with adequate oil levels so what else is there one can do?
modells from 2009 and after,with 2.9 litters have no problems with bore scoring?
Thanks for all that information!
Basically it is a design flaw and poor choice of materials...
I have a 74 2.7 with nikasil cylinders (the mag case has it's issues, but they are fixable...) when I rebuilt it @ 150k miles, due to worn exhaust valve guides, the cylinders and pistons were perfect! There was still cross-hatching on all the cylinder bores!
I hear the 3.0 and 3.2's last 300K (due to BETTER design).
This is WORSE design.
The Porsche engineers/bean counters f'ed-up this engine.
And it costs more to rebuild that the car is worth...
I have a 2006 Boxster S with a 3.2 engine. I'm not burning oil but I do have a lifter like noise. Should I have the engine scoped just to check or is there another explanation for the lifter like noise? It has worried me for some time.
Doing used oil analysis would be less invasive and cheaper. Depending on the results, you might then consider scoping the cylinders or consider replacing the lifters. You might also consider changing to a 5w40 if you are using a 0w40 oil at the next oil change.
It always surprises me that no one mentions the Elefant in the room according to the main reason why bore scoring arises , and that’s because a lot of people don’t do a proper warm up on their engines .
I have a year 2000 model 996 C2 with about 70 K miles under his belt and the cylinders are like brand new on the inside due to a proper warm up , also a sign of mistreatment of an engine is when It‘s oily around the cylinder heads , all due the lack of a proper warm up !!!
Pls share what is a proper warmup? For me it's starting then letting it idle for a minute then running it in a slow pace. Until it reaches normal temp level based on the gauge.
Question: Is a M96/3 X51 engine in a 2004 40th anniversary is prone to the same possible problem of bore scoring?
Yes. Models with the X51 option use the same crankcase with Lokasil cylinder bores, so it is indeed susceptible to cylinder bore scoring.
Hartech closed deck rebuild to the rescue 👌🏾
Hi, There was a mention of it briefly, but I just want to confirm that the 2.7L was much less prone to bore scoring than the 3.4L due to the pistons are not forged... Is that correct? If so the 2.7L from 2006 would be the one to buy if you were concerned about the ims bearing failure and the bore scoring??? Cheers
You are correct. Cast pistons is just one reason. Their iron coating is also different and more durable than the 3.4. A 2005 Boxster most likely has the small single row IMS bearing, which is the worst out of all of them. But it can be replaced with a better one relatively easily compared to the later big bearings (which are the best OE bearings). So a 2005 Boxster is your best bet to avoid bore scoring and IMS bearing issues as long as you replace the bearing. You’ll want to do a visual check of which bearing the car has, Porsche used a mix of IMS bearings in 2005-2006. By 2006, most bearings were the large single row.
That's a great video but I'm slightly confused about the Lokasil issue. The layer of Lokasil inside the bore looks to be about 5mm thick. There's obviously no way the scoring is wearing right through that and into the pure aluminium liner, therefore the piston should still be running on the silicon in the liner, so why is the Lokasil liner actually failing whereas Alusil doesn't seem to? Because if you don't wear right through the Lokasil layer, which you clearly don't, there's no apparent reason for the Lokasil to behave any differently to Alusil!
Or would this particular engine design actually have scored an Alusil block?
Can anyone explain this?
Under a microscope, the difference between an Alusil and a Lokasil bore is negligible. Both are finished the same way using the same process. The only difference is that with Alusil, the whole block is cast with the same high silicon aluminum and with Lokasil, the silicon particles are located in the cylinder bores.
So building my 87 3.2. Cast pistons and Nikasils coating is best option??
We wouldn't suggest using this video to inform an air-cooled build, because it really is honing in an the many issues that combine to cause bore scoring in the M97/M97 engine. Carrera 3.2s did come from the factory with Nikasil-plated bores, and we have not heard of any downsides from upgrading to forged pistons in a Carrera 3.2. This is something you'll want to discuss with your engine builder.
What if you flip the pistons around on the passenger side?
My engine eventually blew. Still dont know the extent yet. Have it sitting on jack stands for last couple years...
How many parts per million of silicone in an oil analysis would be considered elevated? My aluminum and iron counts have actually gone down a little over 5 years of oil analysis, but my silicone has ticked up slightly in my most recent one.
Since you have trend data going several years, what you want to look for is an increase. If silicon particle counts go into double digits and continue to increase, then I would start digging in deeper. I will add that if you have had anything resealed like a sump plate with RTV, that will cause an increase in silicon content as the silicon leeches into the oil during that period after the component was resealed.
Cool.. then my lower priced 986 Boxster S, doesn’t have any bore scoring! 😂👍
Does anyone know if you purchase a Porsche through CPO and discover bore score after purchase if they will cover the engine overhaul?
I doubt it. The dealership would find a way to get out of it.
Yes. If the car is under a CPO warranty, bore scoring should be covered. You would just want to make sure to keep up with service and preferably have that work done at the purchasing Porsche dealership so that there are no questions or doubts.
What's an acceptable PPM for Aluminium/Iron on a 3.4?
Aluminum and silicon should be low single digit values and iron single high digit for a 3-5k service interval.
@@lnengineeringllc thank you
I have a 2007 3.4 Boxster S. Should I be worried?
The engine in your car is more susceptible to bore scoring than some of the other smaller-engined cars. We will be covering topics in new videos through Saturday that address things to avoid and things you can do to avoid bore scoring for as long as possible (if bore scoring happens at 250,000 miles, for example, it could be attributed to a tired engine at that point)
Why did Porsche go from Nikasil to Lokasil ? Sounds like it was more cost effective to change? One last question, what is being used in the current model (2022 &2023) Porsches?
I swear I heard it had something to do with environmental regulations and the chemicals used in the process. Could very well have been money though.
@@K1dPhresh1 Thanks for responding! Do you know if Lokasil is used in the new Porsche's?
@@1scooterpilot1 that I don’t know. I imagine they’ve learned from the M96/M97 engines and dropped Lokasil from 2009 on, but not sure what they’re using now.
@@K1dPhresh1 thanks
Production output and cost savings. They still used Nikasil on mezger engines during those era, much better engine.
Do 987.2 Base 2.9 liter engines suffer from bore scoring? Do they have cast or forged pistons?
To date, we've never seen a base 987.2 car with cylinder bore scoring.
cast pistons, the s versions 3.4 do have forged one's
Good info! That's why I waited until 2010 to get a Porsche 997.2.
DFI 👎
Bore score and 7 years ago.... ok that was my fun for the day
LOL
Base boxster 2.5 or 2.7 is the way forward
10:36 got that backwards, cast expands more, forged does not
Pretty sure the 928 was the first one to use alusil.
You don't mention the Cayenne that suffer this as well.
This video series is not focusing on Cayenne, Macan, Panamera models that can and do suffer from bore scoring (to a much, much lesser extent), but the same principles can be applied, because these three model lines all use alusil blocks with aluminum-silicon cylinders.
So a 2005 Boxster S should be OK?
2005 Boxster S should be okay. The 3.2-liter engines had cast pistons that don't expand and contract with temperature as much, and better cylinder plating.
So what you’re saying is I need to offload my 996 before it gets expensive. Got it.
Nope, just wanted folks to be informed.
@@PorscheClubofAmerica I'm kidding. I've owned my 996 for 6 years and it's been amazing. I plan on owning it for many more years.
Can a liqui-moly treatment help prevent scoring?
guess I will have to stick with Need For Speed: Porsche Unleashed for my turn of the millennium Porsche experience
How can well known name like "Porsche" keep this design for years?
Also, it looks inevitable to have the issue with this design, but are there some cars from the model years but never have this issue developed?
And this is why 997.2 & 987.2 values are bonkers.
It would be good if the two hosts didn't interrupt the technician.
Is that Lake, the Motor Oil Geek?
Indeed!
Sooty tailpipes, is that not a result of direct injection engine. I have no idea why, but that is what I have read and not on forums.
The 97-08 Boxster, Cayman, and 911 did not have direct injection. They have port injection. When one tailpipe is significantly sootier than the other, that's usually a tell that an engine has cylinder bore scoring. Later engines with direct injection will certainly have sooty tail pipes in normal operation, but when one is more so, that is of greater concern.
@@lnengineeringllc Yes, I noted that. But I was surprised that both the left and right exhausts on my 991.1 GTS were slightly sooted. I could understand that if we had an engine out front, but with the engine being where it is, I was surprised to see that. So I did some digging on the net, plus my car had no miles on it and it does not burn ny oil (it new).
How is this not a class action lawsuit? Poor design.
How about Cayenne? There's alot of Cayenne out there
Cayenne, Macan, and Panamera models with Alusil engine blocks can also suffer from cylinder bore scoring, but this occurs far less often than what we see with the M96 and M97 engines. Early V6 models with the VW VR6 engine with the cast iron engine block do not suffer from cylinder bore scoring.
I've had scored bores on non-Porsche engines. Mostly 2-strokes, if we're honest, where it's just something they do to themselves over time (or via catastrophic failure, whichever comes first). Easy fix, just disassemble the motor and hand the block or cylinders to the friendly local machine shop man. Did it for my old Kawasaki last year, and hopefully will find time to do it for my old Husqvarna this year. Guys with old V8s take a pretty similar approach, just with a lot more iron to hoist around. Some of the guys with newer bike engines have nikasil bores, which are a bit more annoying to repair, but requires an ungodly engine failure to get damaged.
For some reason, despite having pretty simple engines, when something happens to the engine of a Porsche or a light airplane, it's a million dollars to resolve. That's really annoying to me. For a GT3 engine that's taking S2000s to school on specific output, I can kind of get that the engine has some exotic business going on and things can get expensive. But an M96 or M97? These things have no reason to be anything but cheap and normal. They're not really high revving, they're not boosted, and they're not terribly light. Nikasil would be proper if you insist on perfect engineering, iron bore liners would be proper if you're actually interested in the long-term well-being of the customer. How much of a non-issue would this be if we could just bore it out and throw in a set of 1st-over Wossners?
Suit in the oil. I would expect this to ruin the timing chain guides before anything. . .
If he says dump it down one more time…..
May I ask a leading question, so you find your Porsche has bore scoring. Is this poor manufacture, is it under warranty or is this another case of tough s**t!
Unfortunately, if it's out of warranty, you are unlikely going to get Porsche to cover the cost of repairs.
Bore score is the new IMS. I have a 3.6L 02 911. it has scoring on cyl 4 and I have driven it for 6000 miles since it was found. Luckily so far no oil consumption at all or any noises
Sorry to hear your engine has a bit of scoring. You'll want to watch video #2 and #3 (today and Saturday) to learn things that contribute to bore scoring (what not to do) and things you can do to slow the progression.
@@PorscheClubofAmerica I will be watching. Currently I have upped my oil changes to every 3000 miles form 5000 and add Ceratec at every second oil change
Phew. Seems like I dodged a bullet
If you can’t afford a new engine after 100k km’s you can’t afford a Porsche 😂😂😂
So true 20k rebuilds or 10k used engines...ill pass
I very much disagree
Every single one of these engines is Scored just depends how bad
It is and how hard the car is driven
Just know that when you buy
Why are porsches so popular? Now I'm waiting for my 987 to explode. What a crap design an iron sleeve would cure everything
It’s not if, it’s when bore scoring will happen.
My 2004 986 Boxster is still going strong. If I was worrying I would have been worrying for a long time.
@@davidmatthews3093 not the exact same motor.
No porsche or a new porsche
Sadly soon all combustion cars including classics will be banned from public streets in entire EU and Scandinavia :-(
In Germany the Green Peoples Party gave order to shorten fuel supply from 2025
on by reducing all conventional fuel stations to only one state operated central gas station per city or county. Now they want to slow down all the gas station pumps from 20 litre per minute to 2 litre per minute...From 2027 on in the EU certain car spare parts will be banned too....as exhaust systems, turbo chargers and even some engine and gearbox oils...California and New York will do the same from 2027 on.... So no investments should be done in oil burning cars any longer....They even created a new kind of crime here, called emissions and smoke crime.!!!! (BABBVEN)
It's just an inherently poor design. The Honda prelude h22a is notorious for burning oil.
Lesson - avoid owning a Porsche!
Hardly. Just buy smart and maintain your vehicles.
Sounds like it’s a good reason to avoid these cars. Too bad I really liked them and was just about to get one. Guess I’ll stick with Mercedes. ✌️
What coating in the cylinder in the 997.2 or 991.1 DFI engines?
There is no coating on the cylinder walls. The block is cast with Alusil which is a hypereutectic aluminum alloy.
@@lnengineeringllc So no threat of bore scoring with 997.2?
@@dkosawa It's still a possibility, but much less. The same precautions we recommend on the M96/M97 engines should be taken with the later models with the MA1/9A1 engine.
@@lnengineeringllc why makes it be less of a risk for the bore scoring in 991.1 engines?
@@michaeldougherty9477 The 991.1 has an Alusil engine block whereas the 97-08 Boxster, Cayman, and 911 had an engine block cast with the Lokasil process.