If you like this video, you might also like this one I made exploring when exploitation is ok in film and television told through the lens of true crime and the Netflix Jeffery Dahmer show: ua-cam.com/video/RmiEtfeGc9o/v-deo.html Or this one looking at the messy behind-the-scenes of Steven Spielberg's forgotten Jurassic Park spin-off, We're Back: A Dinosaur Story: ua-cam.com/video/RKOhw8NZpXg/v-deo.html Or here is the In Defence of playlist if that's what you're into: ua-cam.com/play/PLqStSJhv1GeS_4n1Fw7I-mbgo1s_QDtFF.html
I miss my Beatrice Horseman :( most my family couldn't and still cant understand her. It makes me so awfully sad that people can't see someone suffering in their own skin. A product of the things life and their own minds have done to them. I've watched this so many times over the years. Thank you
Beatrice is the phrase “that explains it but it doesn’t excuse it” personified as a person. But I do love her as a character, she was written amazingly well
I actually SOBBED when Bojack took her to the home and told her nice things showing compassion instead of unleashing his anger and resentment. It took me so off guard.
as someone that did this so many times , it's so difficult to do . being compassionate to the person that hurt you in a way that permanently alters your life is so goddamn hard to do .
My family isn't as bad, but there's some degree of the same sort of idea that the pain travels down the generations. I understood the anger he felt towards her and how ready he was to give it to her. But then seeing her vulnerable, he couldn't do it. I've felt this, and I imagine if the moment came, I'd probably go soft and do the same thing. No matter how much a parent will hurt you, your mind still knows they're your parent and craves love and affection from them.
I work as part of food service in a retired living facility, and many residents have dementia. This condition can cause people to become mean or stubborn (people who started nice but literal brain decomposition causes them to not be themselves). And they can be mean to the nurses, but the nurses stay calm and do what they can to make them comfy and at home. Massive respect to them. Bojack handled representing dementia extremely well.
And when he told that she is eating an ice cream, she looked shocked and says, "it's sooo..... Delicious" cuz she never had an ice cream for her entire life!
@@caterinagiustolakecomo3378 therefore she gets more hate, because yeah, she outlived her husband and we don’t focus modes on how terrible butterscotch was a husband and a father. Point is not made
At least Sugarman did try to make everything work for Beatrice. She just said “ you were born broken” and called it a day. She reminds me if Mallory Archer but one that genuinely can’t show appreciation for her son
Thinking about this. But also - I don’t hate Beatrice. I think Bojack learns that he can’t hate her either, forgiving and seeing her as fallible was crucial in him learning how to do the same for himself. I pity Beatrice, I celebrate her strength, I mourn for the damage she caused. But I can’t hate her anymore. In fact, I think one of Bojacks most radical themes is asking - what if there are no villains??
You can overcome a shitty childhood and be better... but there's a line between a bad childhood and horrible trauma that breaks you forever, without professional help, she was lost for good.
Fer Castillo TRUE. Most people don’t understand that physical, mental, and sexual child abuse stays with you forever. Beatrice learned toxic lessons so early, it changed the way she looked at the world permanently.
There are two kinds of people: the ones who despise their parents so much that they become the most contrary person of what the parents were and the ones who become like them without notice
This is how I feel a lot about my grandparents and their generation. I think particularly if my grandma had access to the mental health treatment I have these days how different her life could have been, we had similar mental health patterns and I could see a lot of myself in her, but she never got help, help wasn't even an option for women then, and she suffered greatly (as then did my mum, unfortunately.)
just don't fall into the seducing trap of overcompensating negative stuff in other toxic ways. it's easy to think we are/we'll be doing much better than our parents when in reality most of the time we are just as shitty as them, but in other toxic behaviors, we're not even aware of. i mean, bojack horseman is the prime example of an amazing show that explores this issue in great depths.
Patrick Knowlton I don’t LOVE her, but I don’t hate her. When she cried over that baby doll and looked so scared and alone in that old folks home, it just made me unable to hate her.
Characters like hers make shows great, she is similar to Joffrey in GoT, obviously Beatrice is a much better developed character than Joffrey but they serve a similar purpose.
I wish we could have seen Henrietta. I wanted to see how Hollyhock as a horse would look similar to a human, like what they did with Charlotte's family. I loved how they managed to blend the physical similarities between two vastly different species.
Along this same thinking, maybe he wasn't lying about his mother having Henrietta's hair color as well! So Butterscotch got them with the same line, but at least he wasn't lying to either of them 😂
What I found funny/interesting/sad about Beatrice’s story is how they subverted one of the biggest love story tropes. She probably would be happy if she married Corbin, the arranged marriage, while she suffered by following her heart. That’s what’s interesting
I'm not sure, if she married Corbyn and the marriage soured, she would always be dreaming of Butterscotch and how she could have "run away out west" etc etc.
@Instrumentality1000 I like to think they would have built each other up. Corbin had already shown some rebellious desires against his father. Beatrice would have encouraged that and they could have broken away from their controlling fathers and built the life they wanted. Corbin would have been the mental stimulation Beatrice needed, and Beatrice would have been the push and encouragement Corbin needed.
@@Damnsaburna Gonna disagree with you there. Most cultures that have arranged marriages hold very harsh societal punishments for divorce. People who marry for money are often willing to put up with a lot more if they think it means they can retain access to that money, if they aren't the ones manipulating their partner. Not to say EVERY case like that goes bad. Basically what I'm saying is just because a marriage doesn't end in divorce doesn't automatically mean it was successful.
WolfenOwlCelestial arranged marriages and forced marriages are two different things. Some of the most happiest marriages are arranged. Both the bride and the groom are allowed to say no
Almost all of the pain in the whole show can be traced to the lobotomy. If that wasnt done, i think the whole family tree have had a much better life, dare i say a good, healthy long life. But people were actually being lobotomized at that time. And the whole situcation that a son killed in war leading the mother being depressed leading to a lobotamy must have happened in real life. Maybe bojak's ficitional generational trauma is many real people generational trauma as well.
@@lordgrimm2905 Yup, you can show Todd’s rant to anyone who defends Beatrice and Bojack’s actions as adults due to their childhoods. Childhood trauma dosen’t make you a terrible person you make you a terrible person
Yes she took a womans child despite Henrietta wanting to keep the kid and regretting it later, she also poisoned Holly later, I dont think it was her choice to force the decision.
@@lunarsprinkle6580 she had dementia, she wasn’t mentally sane when drugging hollyhock. And although forcing Henrietta was not great, it was the best decision. Chances are, Henrietta would of wanted the dad in its life, exposing her to the toxic family.
@@foreverinthefantasyworld1867 Yeah but she also forced her body ideals onto her its not her fault but she's not a totally great person, I know she's trying to help and she cant help it I wished we saw more of her she ended on a sad note.
@@lunarsprinkle6580 It definitely was not her choice not to let Henrietta hold her baby. Of course, she was reenacting her own childhood trauma, so one can understand it, but that doesn't make it right.
The part that broke me was the look on Beatrice's face as she tried to describe ice cream after Bojack asked her if she could taste it. She had to lie. Beatrice was never allowed ice cream.
Saaaame. Almost no parent damages their child on purpose, yet nearly every parent passes on some of their own dysfunction to their offspring. One of the hardest things to come to terms with is that your parents fucked you up because THEIR parents fucked them up... and so on.
I was infuriated when Beatrice refused to let Henrietta hold her baby. However I think she had her reason. She didn’t want Henrietta to have sympathy for the baby, and eventually changed her mind about putting her up for adoption. She experienced first hand how a baby could alter a person’s course of life. She didn’t want Henrietta to experience that. That’s why she didn’t risk her holding the baby, not even for a second.
She was also reenacting her childhood trauma: the scene is juxtaposed by her father (my vote for most contemptible character on the show) burning her doll and implying that she'll end up lobotomized like Honey if she doesn't control her emotions.
@@TrappChapel I wouldn't say it is *the* reason, but I would say the events are linked, and I think the juxtaposition within the episode clearly demonstrates the writers want us to think that Joseph's demand that Beatrice suppress her compassion and maternal feeling is a contributing factor - and don't forget "Promise me you'll never love anyone as much as I loved Crackerjack." :'( But all that said, the OP's statement that Beatrice is trying to prevent Henrietta from falling into the same awful life she did is certainly true, and explicitly stated within the episode. A further link: Beatrice's refusal to have an abortion is tied to the burning doll. The first we see that horrible image in "Time's Arrow" is when Butterscotch intimates she should terminate the pregnancy.
Beatrice seems like the embodiment of when you fully realize your parents are people. They could be broken, have hurt you, and you may not forgive them, but they are people that worked with what they had regardless.
2 years late, but yeah. beatrice helped me understand that my own mom's neglect and disregard of me resulted from being abused herself, by a man who groomed her and would later SA me. she never thought she'd be able to pursue her dreams or even be her own person. she didn't have the tools to know how wrong and misdirected her treatment of me was, and i don't forgive her for putting me through that, but i understand how hard it was for her. this show is honestly a masterpiece. i've never had so much of my life put into perspective and laid out, deconstructed, then put back together before my eyes.
What a shitty reasoning to not love someone to love someone that’s the strongest thing you can do when you love someone you are weak and vulnerable around them it takes strength to put up with those emotions and be ok and understand that is the cost of living someone
@@stelk5355 you’re literally the opposite of selfish. I’m not having kids because I know I’d be a terrible mother. People don’t seem to understand that.
I think Beatrice also had another issue. How her mother reacted by demanding the family get Crackerjack's baby blanket, I think he was her mother's favorite. That along with Honey having nobody she could talk to sent her into a spiral that lead to Beatrice becoming the horse/woman we all know in the show. While it's possible that Honey's reaction was just a mother grieving, I see it it more as possibly favorite child. I mean, a mother would've supported her daughter during such a traumatic time in the history of the world, let her have ice cream in secret. But that's just my interpretation.
Agree. I think Honey may not have been the best. Something that also sticks out to me are Honey and Joseph's dark hair, while both of the kids are blonde.
The feeling of losing a brother is not compared to one of losing a son, I know a little about grief because when my grandma died my mom was the one to tell me so, she said it like it wasn't such a big deal, she thought I wasn't close enough to her, but she could only see my face turning to one of sorrow and pure sadness, I cried for years about her death because she was one of the little people in my father's side of the family that cared for me.when you are in grief you dont think of anyone else's pain, I wanted my father to die because he didn't even tell me in person, even though he was probably heart broken because he lost his mother
I think Honey wasn't a bad parent or favored her son. She lost her son and losing a child can make you forget or be too sad to recognize your other child. I think if her father let her grieve or be emotional things could have been different. I get why things ended that way. Family trauma goes on till one changes the outcome or simply dies.
She is presented as both villain and victim, a cautionary tale. The cycle of abuse is a terrible thing, and, though it can _never_ excuse her perpetuation of it, she died as she lived- fully and truly alone. It's a tragedy that she never knew how to get better, or how to really ask for help. I'm not in a place where I'm able to watch this show in entirety for myself due to all that happens in it, but I'm glad there's folks like you examining the story so I can see it in all its nuances somehow.
That’s why my husband and I frequently talk about “breaking the cycle” before we have kids. That includes me getting lots of therapy and making sure I’ve come to terms with all of my demons before we have children so that we can raise them to be better then Both of us, and make sure we don’t ever put our biases or issues on them.
my mom's abuse rubbed on me and i shamefully abused my sisters for a good while . i can never take back the damage i did to them , and i regret it every day . it's why i refuse to ever have kids because i'm scared that even with the help i've received , i'll fall into that cycle of abuse again .
This video is important if only because people are so quick to justify Bojack's abuses on account of his childhood, but don't give a second thought to hating Beatrice.
Although I haven't finished the show, I find myself oddly more sympathetic to Beatrice (and also Diane, but she's not the subject of the video) than to Bojack. I think part of it is that I don't know all their motivations or what we're not seeing. In terms of Beatrice, I don't think she was a loving a mother, but I also think we're getting the highlights reel of bad behavior as remembered by someone who hates her. She can be very nasty, but I also got the feeling that some of it wasn't purely selfish. I mean... it was always about Bojack more than her and getting Bojack to be successful (albeit not effectively). On the other hand... I can't forgive Bojack for sabotaging Todd's rock opera or for almost sleeping with Penny. Those actions had the deliberate intention of hurting others for Bojack's benefit. But I might be misremembering something.
I think the reason people are more prone to defend bojack (other than him being the main character) is because bojack tries to be a good person, he wants to be a good person but sucks at it. Beatrice has no good intentions and actively relishes in making other people miserable. For me, I think both characters come off as sympathetic, but neither is justified in how they act
you feel bad for the kid, but not the adult. kids don’t have choices in whatever happens in their lives, but adults can choose how they act/ react to circumstances.
I think everyone deserves empathy. Just because an adult has choices, it doesn’t mean they are equipped. I have family who have been traumatized their whole life and pass down generational trauma as I’m sure most families do. No one had access to mental health support, no one had access to therapy or had the privilege to focus on their mental health. I’m the first in my family to seek help and therapy. So even though I’m the kid in the family, there is a lot my family still learns from me. Everyone deserves empathy because that gives them the opportunity to grow. That being said, you can open the door but can’t force people to walk through it. But empathy is foundational in healing
The concept of having choices depends if that person ever learned that they “have” a choice in how you react. That choosing to react differently than how you saw people reacting you’re how life and that to choose to react differently can bring positive change, is also something you first you need to learn/come to realise. It reminds me of a book I read about fleeing North Korean. The author clarified that most people fled bc of hunger and not bc they didn’t have human rights. It’s not that they didn’t want human rights or they felt it wasn’t that important. It’s that the North Koreans don’t have a concept of what human rights are. So saying a person can choose implies that this person knows that there are different options to choose from.
@@gilli494 you know I almost thought your point was...Well.. stupid in the beginning But when you mentioned this Southern Korean problem I understood what you meant by learning to have a choice Although it seems everyone has access to all kinds of knowledge some people are just closed and fixed to their own environment and teachings that they don't bother searching for other ways cause they can't even see that there are actually other ways
@@heyustabbedme empathy is fine. But excuses aren't, dear. What kind of trauma excuses these behaviors, if i may ask? Generational trauma is thrown around so often especially with first world kids. What? Your parents were mean to you and expected a lot from you and hit you as a child? Okay? So? I live in a poor country with zero mental health care, we struggle daily, and I was raped when I was younger. I'm not making excuses for my behavior. Every action we make is a choice. Don't make excuses for your actions because you were tRaUmAtIiiizzzed
It reminds me if an old saying from my mom that learned growing up in her town in Mexico. It's translation reads "The mistakes and burdens of one generation will carry on and it takes 4 generations to pay off those mistakes" In a nutshell the mistakes made by Beatrice's parents and now a burden for Beatrice (and Crackerjack if he lived) to pay off with her life and the mistakes are now a burden to her. And later down the line it becomes Bojacks (and his half sister) to pay off that mistakes with his life as well. And this cycle of suffering continues until the 4th gen, if Bojack had kids, pays it off.
“I can’t believe you came back... you look just like him” damn that foreshadowing, she was talking to Hollyhock about how much she looks like Butterscotch
I understood that she was referring to her late husband and recognized Hollyhock as his baby, but the line doesn't make much sense to me, as Hollyhock looks _nothing_ like Butterscotch!
@@WobblesandBean I think she talks about how Hollihock looks like Bojack (because the line juste before is Hollyhock saying "Who ? Me ? Or Bojack ?" And Beatrice say "Yeah... you look just like him") ? I like the way she said it, it's one of the only moment where she seems calm when talking about Bojack
@@alyssapinon9670 The baby doll is the same as her baby doll as a child, so I don't think she sees Hollyhock as the baby doll, she acknowledges that Hollyhock is Henrietta's baby
In her young adult years she was up to date on social issues and still had that sass that reminds me of her mother. I love her character then, she had the chance to overcome her trauma and her inability to overcome that ultimately is the saddest part of the show for me.
When Bojack is describing a nostalgic scene to her in the nursing home he says you're eating ice cream, and she hesitates before saying it's delicious. She wasn't allowed to eat ice cream back then. She's giving him that moment because HE won't know she did something for him.
yes ! i remember this ! when he was trying to help her picture the summer home he asks if she tastes the icecream - shes never had it before yet she said it tastes delicious still !!
It took me a while to get it, but I knew the pause was important. She grew up with people insulting and/or "fixing" her weight, and at one point even tried doing that for hollyhock. She's carried this even into her adult life and final years. She wanted to show bojack in the final and only way she could that she cared, and he was helpful before she finally... got carried away. I may hate her character, but she is interesting. The writers really did amazing with the show.
Beatrice is a deeply hurt and truly complex character. At a young age she was told that she didn’t matter, her feelings didn’t matter. Her childhood was basically taken away from her, she was forced to grow up. When she was young you can see that she always floated around her mother, she loved her mom. when honey was lobotomized Beatrice watched her be taken away from her. She grew cruel to not let anyone hurt her. When butterscotch came into the picture it seemed like she could have a chance at a childhood, as seen in her teenageish actions when she first met him. She was always fed lies, which she did to bojack as well. Bojack only wanted a mother, but Beatrice who couldn’t change her ways because all she ever could have been was cruel. Just couldn’t be there.
She only grew cruel when she made a life-changing mistake. She was smart, educated, independent-thinking, and a decent person by 21. She knows this and couldnt let go of it. Kind of like Bojack, she spends her whole regretting this one thing. Stories like these scare me because it shows that no matter how intelligent you are, the only person who will ultimately ruin you is yourself. Edit: oops Beatrice was 21 when she met bj's father
@@angela.luntian Bring real life into this, my grandfather was like this. Smart, talented, rich, a wealthy wife, and 2 gifted children. But he fucked it all up with his ego and hatred of being looked down on. Now, all that wealth and talent is gone and all that's left is a sad egotistical man who can't live up to his mistakes.
Beatrice was traumatized by her mother favoring Crackerjack, it's obvious she grew up with the feeling that she was not good enough for her mother to stay sane for.
@@moremoucheits not that strange to think. Bea’s mom never let Bea do fun “boy” stuff (like eating ice cream) and had always been shown to love crackerjack way more. When bea’s mom tells her never to love anyone as much as she loved crackerjack, it tells you that she obviously didn’t love bea nearly as much. It would make sense that bea would internalize this as “my mother’s love for me isn’t enough for her to stay sane”.
@@MysticTech bea’s mum not letting her do boy stuff was a product of the patriarchy she can hardly be blamed for being brainwashed like that from the get go and her father always forced way more harmful patriarchal ideals onto beatrice than her mother ever did. Also i dont think you have ever lost a child is you can judge bea’s mum for losing her mind upon losing her son, it was never a case of not loving beatrice it was just a case of loving crackerjack so much as she would with any of her children and i think her reaction would have been the same if she had lost beatrice instead of crackerjack.
Despite how much I despised Beatrice, despite how much she reminded me of my toxic grandmother. Despite all of the horrible shit, I still felt something for her. I still watched her episodes and cried for her. Despite that I still don’t like her, I did FEEL bad for her. And that’s an insanely incredible from a writer’s perspective.
Beatrice thinks the people who hurt her were right, bojack sees that the people who hurt him were wrong - but continues to let what they did make decisions for him, diane can see that the people who hurt her were wrong and tries to make her own decisions in spite of it
Its like the echos of abuse growing fainter by generation. Bojacks parents were awful, he turned out bad but redeemable. The faint traces of his grandparents behavior are in him because the pain was passed down by his mother.
@@hellozukohere3070 But he does admit it was wrong, accepts his jail sentence, and worries about relapsing. He is far from perfect, but he is more empathetic than his parents and grandparents.
_"Love does things to a person. Terrible things. Beatrice? Promise me you'll never love anyone as much as I loved Crackerjack."_ *"I promise. I won't."*
@@quitthischannellol4368 I don't think you can say they're happy it's more that she deserves it and I agree yes she had a horrible childhood but she could have changed
I think Beatrice's dad is a good example of actual abusive parents who aren't as severe and cruel as Beatrice was, but at the same time, ruined their children the same way. One moment they hurt you and they break you and the next they're kind and gentle and loving, and it convinces you that the abuse was okay or that it wasn't really abusive, and you constantly invalidate yourself for feeling like it was a bad childhood.
one of the things that really got me thinking about the show for a long time, is that beatrice doesn't really resent her father like bojack does, she hated him when he was being abusive, but as time went on, its almost like she forgot. When she is older, she talks about her father with respect, like he was a good guy who "really knew what a marriage was" even though he got her mother lobotomised and despised that his daughter preferred being a inteligent woman who would probably go on with his business over being the perfect wife
Worse part is, your parent actually loves you but they are broke too. So you feel torn between hating them and loving them for the good they did for you. That's the way it is with my mom. I hate her, but love her too
He was severely abusive towards his wife (way more than any other character was at all tbh), enough to have her lobotomised… that naturally would have a knock on effect even if his abuse towards Beatrice wasn’t AS bad
As someone who grew up with a resentful, abusive mother so much like Beatrice, I cannot overstate how much her portrayal in this show helped me to recover from my own trauma and prevent the cycle from continuing. I started watching the year before this season aired when I was fresh out of high school. Id literally run away from home to get away from my mother who made me feel worthless and constantly pushed me to make up for the things shed missed out on by having me at 17. There are literally EXACT lines that come out of bea’s mouth that were things my mother had said to me, like how id ruined her, that her unhappy marriage was my fault, that I HAD to do something great to make up for what shed lost by having me, and that my only worth came from the way I preformed my talents and fake happiness to others. She openly talked in front if me from a VERY young age about how she regretted not aborting or abandoning me. She even went as far as to literally poison me when I got pregnant in high school to prevent me from “making the same mistake she did”, without seemingly any concern for what I wanted from my life or the way that action would profoundly fuck me up for the rest of my adult life. So essentially I got a full year of seeing bea at her worst, completely out of context, and the way it hurt Bo Jack and caused him to hurt others. I empathized with him and vented all my frustrations with my own mother onto bea. I hated her. And it was not only cathartic but also helped me explain to others what id gone thru, since up to that point all the fictional mother’s id really seen were either perfect loving childrearing machines or evil stepmoms who hated you bc they’re EEEEEVIL. It was really rare to see a biological mother portrayed as an abuser, to the point people would actually completely disbelieve me when I told them my father was loving and my mother was the one I was scared of, tell me I should be greatful she brought me into the world at all, which was the exact same sentiment she would use against me any time I tried to express that I was sad or scared or suffering… that I had no right to want anything better bc the act of just bringing me into the world was already more kindness than I deserved or should expect. Bea gave me something to point to and say “THAT. Thats what my mother was like and thats what my home life was like as a child. This is what it did to me.” And then this season came out and bea came back with a whole new lesson for me. After watching this, bea still reminded me of my mother. She was still abusive, and she still hurt bojack in awful ways he’d prob never recover from… but I UNDERSTOOD her now. I understood how much pain there was under her indifference. I understood how she became an abuser after being so profoundly traumatized and abused herself… and she still reminded me of my mom. It made me more curious about what traumas might have been in her life before I was born, and it turns out they were pretty awful too. I found out my mom was given up temporarily while my grandmother suffered with postpartum depression, but that the relative she was given to fled with her and refused to give her back to her loving family, that she was profoundly abused and neglected by her adopted mother who almost definitely had her own issues i wasnt lucky enough to find out about. I learned that my mom had run off with my dad when they were still in high school in a lot of the same way I had run from her to escape her own abuse. I found out I was the first girl in 5 generations to be raised exclusively by my biological parents growing up, bc girls always cause postpartum depression in my family to an extreme that it causes loss of the ability to care for yourself, much less a new baby, and that it was bc my dad had put his foot down while my mother’s adopted family wanted to take me as a newborn. None of it makes what my mother did to me OK, and none of it takes back the trauma I had to endure. None of it unfucks me up. And even with this new understanding I will never be close eith my mother the way most girls are. But I understand so much more now, I’ve grown so much as a person, overcome so much of my trauma, and tho I don’t yet and may not ever have children, my understanding of my generational trauma led me to make some rules in my life to stop the cycle; I made it clear to everyone i was ever with after this point that i didnt believe in shotgun marriages and was deadset on not having children that weren’t planned and wanted. When I married I made sure my husband knew that having kids would be something physically and emotionally harder on me than the average person, that I may get very depressed and need him to be the voice of reason during the process, and that I fully intend to raise any kids we have without teasing or corporal punishment bc it hurts their ability to trust you. I also reconnected with my family despite still not being on great terms with my mom in order to keep an eye on my siblings and make sure she doesn’t do the same things to them she did to me, and to try to get her out of an abusive relationship bc even if I kind of hate her, no one deserves that. To be honest, without this show im not sure I would have had that realization. Im not sure I would have avoided making the same mistakes as my mother. Im not sure I wouldn’t have turned into the exact thing I hated so much. That means so much more than I can express.
Something that I love about the show is that they never actually justifies Beatrice’s actions. I don’t think the writers actually wanted to forgive her.
they only offer explanation for her (and everyone’s) behavior, but they never excuse them. even the titular character is never truly forgiven. the ones he hurt the most can no longer forgive.
@@Vincent-yx7tg Speak for yourself. I have forgiven my mother, who is very much like Beatrice. That doesn't mean I accept her treatment to me and my family, nor that I will let her continue doing it. But I have forgiven, I don't resent her for it because I know she went through a lot herself. I cannot throw stones at someone who is still suffering for things that happened in her past. I can only work on my, and I have worked hard at understanding where she comes from, and fixing the damage she didn't know (or knew, I don't care) she did. My mother is in denial, so in her eyes, not only did she not di anything wrong, but obviously does not regret it. That's her problem, not mine. She never got the help she needed to fix hers. I can't impose my resentment on her. She has enough of it herself. We just can't hold other people to our standards. We can only hold ourselves to our own standards.
@@melistiltskin7889 To be honest it is very easy to not care about a random person, but when its family your own moter it is hard. My mom has similar trsits but she's far better then Beatrice thank God but she never had the emotional capacity to understand nor help to get through my emotions. And im still so mad at her for thinking she did everything she could? She didn't even try... My point is that what made you let go of your mother? Because i can't, maybe its the fact that im only 14 but i always try to change people for the better. Actually i started a week ago to not start drama with others just let it go, but its hard when it comes to family
@@Vincent-yx7tg Of course she wouldn’t regret it because to her she was doing what was best for her son. When you grow up abused, you usually don’t realize that it’s abuse until someone else points it out to you. Beatrice never had anyone tell her that she was abused, that her parents were wrong, and that she was continuing the cycle in her own way. Therefore she would never regret mistreating Bojack cuz to her she wasn’t abusing him but making him stronger just like her parents did for her.
Butterscotch is a close second but Joseph Sugarman is the worst imo, he started all the shit with Beatrice by forcefully lobotomising his wife and was sociopathically abusive to his daughter...
TOMO he didn’t start anything, he just exercised exactly what he was taught in a similar vain to Beatrice. Just because he didn’t get an entire dedicated backstory doesn’t mean he just decided to become the way he was
TBH, what is there to defend about Butterscotch? Like, I'd get if it was a regular list of unliked characters just for the sake of it, but since it's a lead-in to a "in defense of" essay, I totally get why the bastard wasn't on it.
Todd is probably one of the best characters on the show, his main flaws are laziness and agreeableness, and neither of those are particularly destructive. His happy ending is one of the best.
Among all the terrible, abusive cartoon moms, I'm glad that the writers gave more depth and insight into Beatrice to show how she became both the woman and mother we know her in the show.
The way Bojack was pushed by his mother reminds me of my childhood. I remember this one time where I forgot there was a history test coming in middle school. The class started with the teacher just saying "Get your pencils ready for the test!" I was so nervous I felt like I was going to vomit. But I breathed deeply inbetween each question and filled it out to the best of my ability. A few days afterward I got the results of my test and it was an A-. This was a short answer and multiple choice test so the chances of me getting that score with being an idiot is astronomical. I KNEW what I put down. A girl in the class had even came up to me after finding out my grade and said: "If you teach me about history, I'll be your friend." For a kid that didn't have many friends, that meant a lot to me. I can't remember if I taught her what I knew but... I remember running home the moment that class was over. I got home and I showed the test to my mother. I explained that I didn't even study and that was the score I got. I was so proud of my ability to be able to just... KNOW something of significance. Know what she said to me? "If you actually studied, you'd get an A+." I can't even describe how that deflated me. Despite the years of verbal abuse, physical abuse and neglect.... I just wanted my mother to see something I did and be proud of me. And she couldn't even do that. 4 years in the field of biology and getting my degree, I became a microbiologist. I felt good. Really GOOD. But when I shared that with her, she told me: "When are you getting your doctorate? If you have a PHD, that's just perfect then." I know there are ways she tried to want me to succeed but holy shit. She didn't show up for my wedding, my college graduation or call me on birthdays because she would say frequently for the last eight of them: "I'm sorry. I had a bad day." On your own sons birthday? Constantly? So now. She's in the hospital. Sick and dying from COVID-19. After years of neglect and abuse, years of me sending her money in order for her to make ends meet, and wanting her approval... I WISH I could feel like Bojack did in that moment. To hold her hand, get close and say "FUCK YOU MOM!" But all I feel is... sadness. And a need for her to somehow become younger so we can start over. Fuck. I need a drink.
@@RamzalTimble First of all my condolences for the loss of your mother. It is pretty clear that despite her abuse of you you genuinely wanted to be able to have a second chance with her. Shoot I don’t know what to say next. I’m no good at this whole talking to others thing.🥲 I guess I wanted to say that you have accomplished some pretty awesome stuff. From making it in such a complex field of science to finding love to by student standards ACING a history test(seriously buddy you knew the required knowledge that’s what school is supposed to be about). I’m still pretty young by most standards (but we all know the shitty being known as fate doesn’t discriminate) and what I and my sister went through wasn’t abuse but it was still pretty damaging so I know how how you feel. Well this got long. But these are pretty heavy topics so I guess that’s why. ANYWHO have a good day or afternoon if that’s the appropriate word for your time zone!
@@RamzalTimble hope life will go more smoothly for you from now on. Hopefully you do have a few good memories with your mother and that can help you move on from her death. It's going to take years. It's going to be hard. But you will eventually realize that you don't regret anything anymore. Hope your new job is to your liking! Take care!
The message of Beatrice is so, so important. You don't have to forgive your abuser--but understanding them, especially in circumstances like Beatrice--is vital to your empathy, your growth, and your healing. To be sad about what they could have been, and understand that maybe with the right tools it wouldn't be this way and it fucking sucks you didn't get to have them in that state, but hate who they were and understand you weren't at fault for it. That really, society as a whole was the problem all along and you got taken along for the ride, and maybe they did too, but you don't have to let that be your entire life.
I love how they portrayed Beatrice's youth, especially because lobotomies were very common for women experiencing depression or...well, almost anything at all. It was a very loose practice, with one advocate performing lobotomies in client's homes, into the 60s. It's really not a stretch that this happened to Beatrice's mother or that she would be afraid of it happening to her. Ironically, because of her dementia, it kind of did anyway.
I'd hate having her as a mother, but she's a good character; honestly, I could empathize with her and felt really sorry for her sometimes. The script writers did an excellent job.
@@captainhowlerwilson508 you can admit to your faults when you are in a better place Beatrice was never in that place to admit and ask for forgiveness for what she has done. If Beatrice got a divorce and went through therapy she could have been a better mother and person/ horse in general.
I've watched and rewatched Bojack Horseman countless times and I've never fully understood Beatrice until now. You perfectly explained why she is the way she is: "When Beatrice's mom said never to love anyone, Beatrice accepted because she had seen the damage being attached to people can bring." Amazing video.
The first time I cried while watching the show was actually a pretty strange moment. It's the one where Secretariat is reading Bojack's letter on TV, and then his parents come in, fighting so much that he can't hear. Bojack's parents really stole his childhood from him.
Yes! And the way it wasn’t even made to be the monumental disappointment it would’ve been for most people. The abuse in his life was so consistent, it wasn’t even a memory worth being dwelled on over any other disappointment in his life. It was the first time I felt devastated watching the show. So well done.
You've probably heard this since then but the creators intended for bojack to have ina way been in a way been listening too closely as he had taken the advice in the wosrt way where he could never learn from his past becuase he thought there was nothing there for him.
all i can think of is how he's more comedic relief than a serious character but like...i dont agree at all asfhisah he's a serious character 100% who happens to be a bit goofy
Ò ‸ Ó I love Todd bc it's so crazy how that even though he really isn't anybody special, just some young guy who was at bojack's party and never left, he somehow managed to pull everybody together and gave pretty much all of the main characters a lot of support. Like he took care of PC's baby, was bojack's best friend, even peanut butter's best friend, and Diane's friend. Although Todd wasn't rly anybody for the longest time, I always found him relatable and how he comes up with crazy conclusions that somehow works based on irrelevant facts. Also he had an amazing character development. Although everybody had a big character development except for bojack I think Todd had the biggest one and I love how it improved over seasons more than right away
as someone with an extremely difficult relationship with my mom i cried like a baby when bojack took her to the home and told her all those lovely things. it was just so real that even though this person has caused you so much hurt you don’t want them to be alone. sobbing hysterically
Bojack turned into his dad, but we sympathise with Bojack as we know his backstory. Unfortunately Butterscotch more than likely had a traumatic childhood too and so the cycle continued.
Not always true. It all has to do with mindset and taking accountability. You are responsible for being honest with yourself and making yourself grow. It can hurt, and you can feel like giving up sometimes. My dad was a heroin addict and my mother pimped me out as a young teen. I’m nothing like them, because I don’t have to be. I’m independent from them mentally, it broke me separating myself from them, but it’s my only chance. It’s been a lonely ride, but I understand myself, and that’s all I need to keep pushing. The only people who end up the same are people who refuse to look at themselves, say they’re a bad person, and work day after day for years to change.
I wouldn’t call it rare, theres a lot of abusers who have a reason to Abuse. Here’s an example ; Doug From Dark deception - Dougs mother was blinded by Rage and Sadness, And I wouldn’t blame her. Dougs father left his mother when he was very Young and didn’t Feel any regret and didn’t get guilt dripped sense he was a MAN. and Unfortunately for Doug, he got the most of his genes from his father.
@@xmilfmommyx7056 that's a horrible reason. "I hate you because you have your fathers genes" No shit, really? Where else was he gonna get em, the boogeyman?
She reminds me of my own mother, which made her scenes with Bojack incredibly hard to watch. My mom did love and care for us kids, but it was obvious her past and life experiences shaped her, and I witnessed it first hand after she got back together with my father. She was happy without him and her life fell apart when he came around again and they had another kid (my younger sister), and I’m grateful my mom has never openly expressed to my sister that she was the reason my mom stuck with my dad and she was the reason her life was slipping through her fingers. It took me a long time to love my sister after realizing she didn’t ask to be brought into the world and didn’t mean to affect our mothers happiness. When I started growing up and realized I had to become a third parent in the house for my sister, I look back now and see that I had acted a lot like Beatrice to my sister. And I know that’s affected her, but the only thing I can do now is break the cycle and be the positive person in my sisters life that I never had and that my mother never had.
I must admit that she is well written. She reminds me so much of my grandfather whose mother went literally insane after the loss of her husband in WW2 was followed by the death of her youngest son (the only one who looked like his dad) at age 2 due to a lung infection. My grandfather and his older brother moved in with their aunt who constantly belittled them and his brother let his anger out on him and quickly began causing trouble which made the aunt even more abusive. My grandfather worked at the age of 11 after school so he didn't have to go home and never really had someone who could trust and so always wanted to fix everything on his own. The only time he let his guard down was my grandmother who was headstrong and didn't rely on him, but she really wanted a child and pressured him into at least having one. He gave in and had a son with her and according to my dad, grandpa was very distancing and let him know that he didn't want him if it wasn't for grandma. The only lesson he taught my dad was to never put your trust and happiness into someone else's hands he even yelled and my grandmother when she comforted dad when he cried in preschool. My grandfather never had someone who was there for him and had to do all himself and thinks it's a good message to teach instead of breaking the circle and being there for my dad. My grandfather saw through his mother what happens when your happiness relies on others. Right now he and dad are on bad terms and we only visit him because of grandma and her dementia because grandpa has trouble being a caretaker I recently asked my dad if he sees grandpa as a good father and he just said "No, but don't tell him because he thinks he is". Ugh
Yeah, but once you grow up you have the responsibility to be a good person and to not be abusive to others. Your intent doesn‘t matter. What matters is that you listen to people, that you take feedback into account and that you take on the reaponsibility to better yourself. If you can‘t do that, you don‘t deserve forgiveness or redemption. There‘s a bunch of people out there who‘ve lived through terrible childhoods and they work their a*ses off to be a good person, breaking the cycle and to be better than the people that hurt them. If you can‘t do that, if your ego is too inflated to adapt and change and if your pride blinds you to what you‘re doing to your loved ones and how it affects them then you don‘t deserve any redemption or any forgiveness. Abuse victims don‘t have to forgive their abusers and if their abusers can‘t learn then it is 100% justified for you to cut them out of your life. I‘m so tired of people using explanations of how abusers were abused too to shift the conversations away from the present and back to the past. I know you‘re not trying to take away responsibility from the abusers with your comment but the implication is still the same. So many people do better than Beatrice. Far better. Her past is never an excuse for her actions as an adult.
I feel sympathy for Beatrice. She didn't deserve what she had to go through. I can never forgive her for what she subjected BoJack to, though. There is no valid excuse in the world for child abuse, let alone of that magnitude. He didn't deserve to go through that either. Great video.
I also think it’s really interesting how sexism and the role of women plays into Beatrice’s story. If her dad hadn’t been the prime example of toxic masculinity, if he had been able to deal with emotions (his own, those of his wife, and Beatrice’s) she wouldn’t have become so cold. Had she not grown up in such a cold and sexist environment, she wouldn’t have felt intrigued by Butterscotch. Had she had proper sex education (which I’m sure she didn’t have, since she was expected to marry well, do as her husband say and have kids), she wouldn’t have got pregnant. And most importantly, hadn’t there been the stigma against women with unplanned children, or single mothers, or divorced women, she wouldn’t have had to stay married to Butterscotch and become even more miserable and abusive. Of course this doesn’t really excuse her behaviour, her trauma also doesn’t excuse it, but her trauma and the absolutely unjust and sexist environment she was raised in definitely explain her abusive nature (and why she would raise a sexist and emotionally incapable son like Bojack).
her not showing emotions is basicaly result of todays "dont cry or else ill give you a reason", parents basicaly manipulate theyr kids into thinking emotions are bad so then in later life the kid grows up emocionaly 'broken'. her father fucked up everything he could and she just went with what she learned is a proper parenting. it doesnt exuse her actions but she was lost from begining, not even psychiatrist would help in her adult hood
@@weebshit6728 well but also, her father was completely emotionally stunted. Beatrice never learnt how to accept and deal with her emotions. I think a psychiatrist totally could’ve helped her, cause I’m a huge proponent of therapy, due to my own experience with it.
She's a good example of what can happen when limiting rights and taking away options in order to fulfill the expectations of what women are supposed to act/be.
You can add Corbin Creamerman to this comparison. Corbin is the nicest man in Beatrice's life, and he's also the *least manly*. He shows honesty, modesty and emotional openness. This is why she's initially totally disinterested in him, but then realises that he might actually be a decent person.
I really, REALLY hate to say it, but this video helped me to forgive my abusive father, because he was abused worse than I was. And damnit I still can't stand the idea that it was okay, just that I hate him less than I used to.
Yeah, I had a meltdown one day last year, crying in my car, I felt afraid and alone. It dawned on me both of my parents had felt that way too at one point or another, but they turned to drugs and alcohol to quell the fear and self hatred. It made feel bad for them. I'm lucky to have had great therapists, and friends and some family who thankfully guided me to a different path. Much love to you. And I hope you heal ♡
Yeah, it's hard to forgive someone you still hate. Grown-ups (mostly religious people) have always told me "you need to forgive people and let go of your hate in order to have peace" and this one specific line that my teacher said back then that always stuck with me "You can't just say you forgave someone and then say "but I don't wanna see your face ever again'" She said it in Tagalog so idk what's the best translation (just in case, she said the exact words "bawal mo naman sabihin na pinagbigyan mo na yung tao tapos sasabihin mo "oh pero ayaw ko na makita pagmumukha mo'") I think it's definitely possible to forgive someone and still hate them. But GOD it's definitely hard and that's an understatement
Beatrice's backstory was hard to watch, her actions towards her son aren't forgivable, but can be explained. She was raised in a toxic environment, which led to her being toxic.
@@Tmcclernon she carried Hollyhock for nine months, how more attached can you be? Many people who give up babies for adoption hold their children. Its extremely difficult but because that's what's best for their children, they give the children up
She never really had any, being bullied in her younger years. She probably didn't try to get those connections later in life so she wouldn't become vulnerable.
@@Awesomekittyness still she knew people in her supper club enough where she would invite them into her house and perform for them that means she had to talk with them and be somewhat friendly maybe she wasn't close with any of them but it's not like she had no social skills or life outside her marriage
Kimmy Seon that’s not the problem. beatrice didn’t have friends cause she didn’t allow herself to be vulnerable. having friends was becoming attached with love and her mother told her never to do that. so she didn’t. that’s why she had supper club but didn’t allow herself to become besties with them. You can have a social life but not have any people as close friends
When Beatrice is taking away Hollyhock from Henrietta and Henrietta begs to hold her Beatrice says “No, you’ll just get attached” or something along those lines. She truly thought taking away Hollyhock ASAP would make it easier. Beatrice’s childhood and Bojack dropping her off in the nursing homes are the only parts in this show that made me sob and I mean SOB MY HEART OUT, they hurt so badly
IcyElle I think it’s hard to hate Butterscotch because we don’t get to see his story the way we see Beatrice’s. We don’t know what made him that way, and we especially don’t know what living with an abusive partner did to his mental health.
Beatrice really helped me to understand dementia, which really helped me when my grandfather got it, I don't think I can forgive her for the things she done but I understand why she was the way she was, she was a victim too
Her character perfectly demonstrates what it's like to loath a person for the way they hurt you while also understanding and even empathizing with the past traumas that'd evolved them into that person to begin with.
I like this video a lot because it does not ignore the abuse and cruelty Beatrice put Bojack through. It doesn't try to rationalize or justify it, It is just an explanation of why Beatrice is the way she is. Her storyline and past is so disturbing and fascinating.
This video made me understand that one can be traumatized by their parents but still love them with their whole heart in the way Bea did with hers. Heartbreaking, all the way through.
I actually love Beatrice as a character. As someone who had a pretty rough childhood, seeing Beatrice’s backstory really helped me process my trauma and understand why my parents were how they were and now I’m closer with them than ever. The writers did an incredible job with her story arch.
For me it was opposite, I understood that I won't let this person enter my life anymore. She was adult, she must clean her mess by herself, for example reflex on her behaviour sometimes. Instead she almost destroyed my psyche to feel a little better. For some reason I managed to reflect on my behaviour once I grew up, why she didn't? But of course, not only bojack. Mostly therapy, but it intersected. Bojack brought me relieve understanding how much world hate such people like she is.
Beatrice reminds me of the old phrase "Just because someone lives a life of darkness, doesn't mean they chose to turn off the light themselves". Beatrice is a great example of someone who just wants to be happy. She's cruel and evil, yes, but not for a lack of effort. As states, she's a product of her past.
Beatrice reminds me a lot of my mother. She was as emotionally abusive like Beatrice (as you can expect from her rough childhood and generational trauma). Because she had a hard life, she went to smoking and gambling. Staying in a rough relationships because she felt like that was the only thing she had going for her. And while she tries to do reverse psychology (try to say rude things in order to motivate them to do better) so that her kids won’t go through what she went through, it inevitably pushes them to go through trauma albeit a different way than she did. Now my mom is alone and in the nursing home because of covid and how hard she is to take care of. It’s just depressing in the grand scheme of things. I still love her and I saw her trying to change her habits before she got sick. Now she’s completely changed and I wanna he with her through this new journey in her life, especially because she’s never really had a consistently “happy” part of her life. Me relating her to my mom does not excuse Beatrice’s behavior and how she traumatized him. Just like how Bojack’s trauma doesn’t justify his behavior. It’s just sad that she couldn’t’ve turned a new leaf and instead wallow in the abusive cycle because that’s all she knew. I think Bojack effectively avoided the continuation of generational trauma due to the fact he didn’t have kids. However, look at the state of the kids he had surrounded himself with. At least he’s truly trying to do good now. I wondered if therapy would’ve hep Beatrice or sent her spiraling even harder after what happened in her childhood?
Not having kids isn't stopping the abusive cycle, just merely avoiding it. If you truly want to break the cycle it would be by taking active steps to show proper love and appreciation to your own children
I haven’t watched BoJack so I was in for quite the shock when hearing Eda the Owl Lady’s VA coming from a bad horse parent. Anyways, Beatrice reminds me of my one grandmother who was treated pretty bad by her parents, causing her to take it out on my dad and my brother verbally further down the line. She really tries to be a good grandmother but she is held back by her past trauma. She is so much more open and loving than she was years ago. I wish for the day that children get to grow up happy and free from trauma.
Same here, as a TOH fan coming back to Bojack feels really strange, but this show is amazing so its worth it. I wish you and your grandmother the best, I’m happy to hear that shes become more open :)
It's so strange that I know it's Eda but I forgot she was Eda the moment I watched this episode or many eoisoes before that. I normally don't forget these things especially because the voice is so recognizable. Like when I can remember Sarah Lynn's name I just remembered Mabel and looked up who voiced her and look up who else she voiced 🤣 Probably because her voice fits wonderfully for a character like Beatrice way more than Eda, (I know it's a controversial take but) her voice just has that vibe where you can't imagine any other voice for Beatrice
Beatrice became one of my absolute favorite character studies. Voiced by Wendie Malick she was hilariously cruel and the very real abusive Mother so many people, including me, had as a kid. She was selfish and unhappy and never took responsibility for her horribleness. Her life wasn't easy though, and you can see an alternative version of Beatrice that turned out very differently. She never tried though, and her character served as an excellent backdrop to illustrate how much more Go back has been trying. This Fucking show, man!
Also in season 4 episode 11 when bojack opens his fridge in a memory of a conversation between him and his mother to get alcohol, his fridge is full of sugar and lemons, showing how what Beatrice was brought up with internalized and she forced bojack to internalize some of the same things.
Schafrillas couldn't figure out why the HollyHock pill thing happened so suddenly but you are absolutely right; the signs were all there and it was in character for her to act that way. Also that whole thing with Henrietta feels infinitely more tragic now because of your point about how Beatrice was actually trying to save her from the pain. Great analysis video; I'm going to check out your other ones!
I’d also like to add to her defence that even the fact that she wasn’t angry at her father shows a greater damage than bojack! Bojack got to express his negative feelings towards his parents but Biatrice suppressed them so deep down that she couldn’t even admit she was hurt by those things and kept on admiring what her dad did in his marriage!
I think Beatrice and Bojack are a great example of generational trauma (trauma that happens to one member in the family and it gets passed on from generation to generation) that started because of Bojack's grandparents when their son died.
This! I know a lot of people have made the point that in that moment she does actually realise where she is. Her hesitancy to tell Bojack that the ice cream is "delicious" is her deciding to lie to him so he feels like he made her feel better, a small act of kindness and the last we see of her suppressing her emotions, but this time for Bojack's benefit.
Instrumentality1000 i don’t know though, bojack does that a lot where he “seems to learn” such as having a girlfriend, trying to reach out to his daughter, saving Todd from a cult... and then goes back to his self defeating ways. He constantly relapses and then punishes himself and others for it which is absolutely not healthy and showing that he does not actually break a cycle when he does one nice thing for his mother. It’s just another example of him trying that he will likely beat himself up for later one
i love beatrice as a character, hate her as a person. her traumatic experience as a child explains her actions as a parent, but in no way does it excuse them
I was thinking about how there are people who had abusive parents and shitty childhoods but don't grow into assholes. I'm thinking what Beatrice lacked was the ability or willingness to change. She new she was a shitty parent, but instead of being better she just shrugged it off as some badness that runs in the family.
Beatrice did not apologize to Bojack for how she treated him. She showed remorse for creating a child cursed by her and Butterscotch's blood. It's part of her continuing abuse towards Bojack. She STILL didn't take responsibility for anything.
She got that from her father, and Bojack got it from her. All three of them are deeply destructive people who are unable to admit when they’re the problem. I’d say the main difference is that due to the societies they lived in, Beatrice never really had control over her life, and any times when she did, she made the wrong choice. Sleeping with Butterscotch was the first time we see her make a real, meaningful choice for herself and it was absolutely the wrong one
This show is truly amazing. The way they portrayed Generational Trauma and its consequences.... I am speechless. Perfect summary of Beatrice Horseman. She was as much of a victim as BoJack was.
She's a great examples of how her past doesn't make her actions any less cruel, but it tries to give you a sense of empathy and help you question why she did those things.
I never hated Beatrice. She reminded me of my grandma, who had alzheimer's. I watched the season finale of this show the day before she died, and Beatrice's (second) "death" scene really struck me hard. I ended up being able to speak at my grandma's funeral a few weeks later, probably, due to this show.
Her character is actually the reason that I love the show so much, you hate her for all of the shitty things she says and does to Bojack, but at the same time, you get to see how she was brought up and how her upbringing causes her to be such a terrible parent herself. She is scared by the things she witnessed as a child such as her brother dying, her mom becoming basically braindead, and her father being over controlling. All of this combines to create her parenting style towards Bojack. It's the only way she knows how to parent. It also shows that even though Bojack never meets his grandparents, they are still a huge part of his life through how his mother raised him, and maybe, if she hadn't raised him the way she did, he would have never become an actor, or an alcoholic, or such a terrible person (horse).
14:37 After watching Bojack multiple times, binge watching hours of video essays, and reading *endless* discussions, never have I once ever encountered this take on Joseph Sugarman. It's honestly really refreshing, and I actually agree! Without a doubt he was an asshole who did...everything he did, but I never once realized the good that came from (or would've came from) some of his suggestions. They needed to burn her things. She should've married Corbin Creamerman (this was for business reasons, but it's heavily implied he would've been a kind and loving partner for Beatrice). He gave Butterscotch a job with great benefits. Wow!
Beatrice Horseman was a truly tragic and complicated character for sure. Yes she was awful, but that's just part of why her character arc was so tragic. Like so many of the characters in Bojack Horseman. I've said before that BH is one of the only shows I've watched in a long long time that felt like I was actually watching real people. And it was an internet cartoon about a talking horse.
I feel like Joseph Sugarman never completed the quote, so here it is completed in my mind. "Times arrow neither stands still nor reverses, it always marches forward, however it is up to the archer where it will land"
If you like this video, you might also like this one I made exploring when exploitation is ok in film and television told through the lens of true crime and the Netflix Jeffery Dahmer show:
ua-cam.com/video/RmiEtfeGc9o/v-deo.html
Or this one looking at the messy behind-the-scenes of Steven Spielberg's forgotten Jurassic Park spin-off, We're Back: A Dinosaur Story:
ua-cam.com/video/RKOhw8NZpXg/v-deo.html
Or here is the In Defence of playlist if that's what you're into:
ua-cam.com/play/PLqStSJhv1GeS_4n1Fw7I-mbgo1s_QDtFF.html
I miss my Beatrice Horseman :( most my family couldn't and still cant understand her. It makes me so awfully sad that people can't see someone suffering in their own skin. A product of the things life and their own minds have done to them. I've watched this so many times over the years. Thank you
Beatrice is the phrase “that explains it but it doesn’t excuse it” personified as a person. But I do love her as a character, she was written amazingly well
Bojack fits that exact same description as well.
“Cool motive, still murder”
A lot of times when she insults Bojack she’s saying how she feels about herself
The show ended up being brilliant on the level of Shakespeare.
I think that phrase could be used to sum up the show as a whole.
I actually SOBBED when Bojack took her to the home and told her nice things showing compassion instead of unleashing his anger and resentment. It took me so off guard.
as someone that did this so many times , it's so difficult to do . being compassionate to the person that hurt you in a way that permanently alters your life is so goddamn hard to do .
My family isn't as bad, but there's some degree of the same sort of idea that the pain travels down the generations. I understood the anger he felt towards her and how ready he was to give it to her. But then seeing her vulnerable, he couldn't do it. I've felt this, and I imagine if the moment came, I'd probably go soft and do the same thing. No matter how much a parent will hurt you, your mind still knows they're your parent and craves love and affection from them.
I work as part of food service in a retired living facility, and many residents have dementia. This condition can cause people to become mean or stubborn (people who started nice but literal brain decomposition causes them to not be themselves). And they can be mean to the nurses, but the nurses stay calm and do what they can to make them comfy and at home. Massive respect to them. Bojack handled representing dementia extremely well.
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And when he told that she is eating an ice cream, she looked shocked and says, "it's sooo..... Delicious" cuz she never had an ice cream for her entire life!
The fact that Bojack’s mother gets more hate than her father is crazy.
I don't think that she does. It's just that she's still alive when the series starts and we get to see more of her
@@caterinagiustolakecomo3378 therefore she gets more hate, because yeah, she outlived her husband and we don’t focus modes on how terrible butterscotch was a husband and a father. Point is not made
@@Trj113No, point was absolutely made. Because you are discarding and downplaying it's value, does not remove the point being made.
Explain was was inherently worde about Mr. Sugarman than Beatrice in parenting?
At least Sugarman did try to make everything work for Beatrice.
She just said “ you were born broken” and called it a day.
She reminds me if Mallory Archer but one that genuinely can’t show appreciation for her son
A good villain is a character everyone hates, a great one is a character that you can still hate, but understand
Damn shawty, 1.3k likes and no reply?
@@old_channel160 That's how you know you made a agreeable take
@@nickrustyson8124
True that
Literally everyone in the show (besides holly hock because she is the best)
Thinking about this. But also - I don’t hate Beatrice. I think Bojack learns that he can’t hate her either, forgiving and seeing her as fallible was crucial in him learning how to do the same for himself. I pity Beatrice, I celebrate her strength, I mourn for the damage she caused. But I can’t hate her anymore. In fact, I think one of Bojacks most radical themes is asking - what if there are no villains??
You can overcome a shitty childhood and be better... but there's a line between a bad childhood and horrible trauma that breaks you forever, without professional help, she was lost for good.
Fer Castillo TRUE. Most people don’t understand that physical, mental, and sexual child abuse stays with you forever. Beatrice learned toxic lessons so early, it changed the way she looked at the world permanently.
There are two kinds of people: the ones who despise their parents so much that they become the most contrary person of what the parents were and the ones who become like them without notice
EXACTLY. SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK.
@@aj7952 this.
This is how I feel a lot about my grandparents and their generation. I think particularly if my grandma had access to the mental health treatment I have these days how different her life could have been, we had similar mental health patterns and I could see a lot of myself in her, but she never got help, help wasn't even an option for women then, and she suffered greatly (as then did my mum, unfortunately.)
Beatrice helps me sympathize with my own mother and also motivates me to be nothing like her.
But butterscotch is worse to me but he I think gets off the hook bc that era
Well said
just don't fall into the seducing trap of overcompensating negative stuff in other toxic ways. it's easy to think we are/we'll be doing much better than our parents when in reality most of the time we are just as shitty as them, but in other toxic behaviors, we're not even aware of. i mean, bojack horseman is the prime example of an amazing show that explores this issue in great depths.
Hate her as a person, but love her as a character
Patrick Knowlton I don’t LOVE her, but I don’t hate her. When she cried over that baby doll and looked so scared and alone in that old folks home, it just made me unable to hate her.
Same, she is an amazing character and she does have reasons for being terrible, but that doesnt excuse her actions it just explains them
Characters like hers make shows great, she is similar to Joffrey in GoT, obviously Beatrice is a much better developed character than Joffrey but they serve a similar purpose.
It's called writing a good villain, makes you sympathise with him/her but also dislike him
As a horse
Butterscotch wasn't lying about his mother having a diamond at least because Hollyhock has one too.
With all of the lines Butterscotch gave I think Hollyhock may actually look like his mother but he never knew or got to see for himself.
Oh shit, you're right
Yeah, I don't think he lied but I do think it's shitty that he used it to wrap Beatrice around her finger
I wish we could have seen Henrietta. I wanted to see how Hollyhock as a horse would look similar to a human, like what they did with Charlotte's family. I loved how they managed to blend the physical similarities between two vastly different species.
Along this same thinking, maybe he wasn't lying about his mother having Henrietta's hair color as well! So Butterscotch got them with the same line, but at least he wasn't lying to either of them 😂
Imagine thinking Beatrice is the worst character when Butterscotch exists
Um I’m pretty sure there was a rapist hippo but okay
I present you: Joseph Sugarman
Well i'd argue Joseph is even worse than Butterscotch, but i think i hate Beatrice more cuz she has more screen time, i get to hate her more
Beatrice was more cruel than Butterscotch IMO
He gave his child alcohol so he wouldnt tell that he was having an affair
What I found funny/interesting/sad about Beatrice’s story is how they subverted one of the biggest love story tropes. She probably would be happy if she married Corbin, the arranged marriage, while she suffered by following her heart. That’s what’s interesting
I'm not sure, if she married Corbyn and the marriage soured, she would always be dreaming of Butterscotch and how she could have "run away out west" etc etc.
@Instrumentality1000 I like to think they would have built each other up. Corbin had already shown some rebellious desires against his father. Beatrice would have encouraged that and they could have broken away from their controlling fathers and built the life they wanted. Corbin would have been the mental stimulation Beatrice needed, and Beatrice would have been the push and encouragement Corbin needed.
Most marriages that don’t end in divorce are the arranged ones or the ones people married for money.
@@Damnsaburna Gonna disagree with you there. Most cultures that have arranged marriages hold very harsh societal punishments for divorce. People who marry for money are often willing to put up with a lot more if they think it means they can retain access to that money, if they aren't the ones manipulating their partner.
Not to say EVERY case like that goes bad. Basically what I'm saying is just because a marriage doesn't end in divorce doesn't automatically mean it was successful.
WolfenOwlCelestial arranged marriages and forced marriages are two different things. Some of the most happiest marriages are arranged. Both the bride and the groom are allowed to say no
She hates Bojack because she loves him and she doesn't like that feeling
wow this is so clever and deep you explained it so well
Jennetteish - what
Yeah, because her mother basically told her to not love anyone as much as she did with her own son.. She didn't want to be broken like her mother
she only "needs" bojack for things.
She promised her mother
Her mother was an amazingly positive person. Imagine the Beatrice that would’ve been formed if the women in the family had healing :/
Honey was such a sweet character honestly
Almost all of the pain in the whole show can be traced to the lobotomy. If that wasnt done, i think the whole family tree have had a much better life, dare i say a good, healthy long life.
But people were actually being lobotomized at that time. And the whole situcation that a son killed in war leading the mother being depressed leading to a lobotamy must have happened in real life. Maybe bojak's ficitional generational trauma is many real people generational trauma as well.
@@Really124that is a super interesting idea.
sometimes i wish the show was just about Beatrice’s life
bro wqhat are you talking abt what abt the dads
I felt bad for the little girl who was abandoned and abused by everyone in her life, not the sour cruel woman she became
But it was a result of her never receiving love as a child and having a loveless marriage
@@A11L9E thats no excuse thou, tod already said it pretty well so i fell i dont have to writte it
@@lordgrimm2905 Yup, you can show Todd’s rant to anyone who defends Beatrice and Bojack’s actions as adults due to their childhoods. Childhood trauma dosen’t make you a terrible person you make you a terrible person
@@badzi4200 she was taught to never love anyone
A litle girl abandoned and abused will eventually became like Beatrice
Her helping Henrietta gave hollyhock the chance at happiness bojack never had. Probably the nicest thing she ever did.
Yes she took a womans child despite Henrietta wanting to keep the kid and regretting it later, she also poisoned Holly later, I dont think it was her choice to force the decision.
@@lunarsprinkle6580 she had dementia, she wasn’t mentally sane when drugging hollyhock.
And although forcing Henrietta was not great, it was the best decision. Chances are, Henrietta would of wanted the dad in its life, exposing her to the toxic family.
That scene makes me cry. Even monsters can have their flash of helpfulness
@@foreverinthefantasyworld1867 Yeah but she also forced her body ideals onto her its not her fault but she's not a totally great person, I know she's trying to help and she cant help it I wished we saw more of her she ended on a sad note.
@@lunarsprinkle6580 It definitely was not her choice not to let Henrietta hold her baby. Of course, she was reenacting her own childhood trauma, so one can understand it, but that doesn't make it right.
“Don’t you cry, don’t you ever cry. You wanted this!”
She’s talking to herself
I bawled my eyes out when Bojack was telling his mum they were at the lake house. That entire episode is one of my favourites of the whole show.
The part that broke me was the look on Beatrice's face as she tried to describe ice cream after Bojack asked her if she could taste it. She had to lie. Beatrice was never allowed ice cream.
@@Acciaccatura85 "It's so.....delicious.."
It took me watching it a second time before I caught that and it broke me too.
My favourite moment of the show. Bittersweet, touching just so well done. It would be the best episode, were it not for Halfway Down
I also bawled my eyes out at the funeral - there's unfortunately too much parallel between my relationship with my ill parents
Saaaame. Almost no parent damages their child on purpose, yet nearly every parent passes on some of their own dysfunction to their offspring. One of the hardest things to come to terms with is that your parents fucked you up because THEIR parents fucked them up... and so on.
I was infuriated when Beatrice refused to let Henrietta hold her baby. However I think she had her reason. She didn’t want Henrietta to have sympathy for the baby, and eventually changed her mind about putting her up for adoption. She experienced first hand how a baby could alter a person’s course of life. She didn’t want Henrietta to experience that. That’s why she didn’t risk her holding the baby, not even for a second.
She was also reenacting her childhood trauma: the scene is juxtaposed by her father (my vote for most contemptible character on the show) burning her doll and implying that she'll end up lobotomized like Honey if she doesn't control her emotions.
@@andrewkohler3707 that's not the reason
@@andrewkohler3707 but good example
@@TrappChapel I wouldn't say it is *the* reason, but I would say the events are linked, and I think the juxtaposition within the episode clearly demonstrates the writers want us to think that Joseph's demand that Beatrice suppress her compassion and maternal feeling is a contributing factor - and don't forget "Promise me you'll never love anyone as much as I loved Crackerjack." :'( But all that said, the OP's statement that Beatrice is trying to prevent Henrietta from falling into the same awful life she did is certainly true, and explicitly stated within the episode.
A further link: Beatrice's refusal to have an abortion is tied to the burning doll. The first we see that horrible image in "Time's Arrow" is when Butterscotch intimates she should terminate the pregnancy.
She was doing what she thought was an act of kindness
Beatrice seems like the embodiment of when you fully realize your parents are people. They could be broken, have hurt you, and you may not forgive them, but they are people that worked with what they had regardless.
2 years late, but yeah. beatrice helped me understand that my own mom's neglect and disregard of me resulted from being abused herself, by a man who groomed her and would later SA me. she never thought she'd be able to pursue her dreams or even be her own person. she didn't have the tools to know how wrong and misdirected her treatment of me was, and i don't forgive her for putting me through that, but i understand how hard it was for her. this show is honestly a masterpiece. i've never had so much of my life put into perspective and laid out, deconstructed, then put back together before my eyes.
"I hate you because if I didn't, I'd love you...but love is weakness and I'll never be weak again."
This quote reminds me of Beatrice a lot. 💛
What’s this quote from?
@@ArianaAlexis Supernatural, Rowena said it about her son. 👌👌
@@SleepyKwee I remember bursting into tears when she said that!! Rowena’s actress is amazing.
That doesn't seem like a good mindset to have
What a shitty reasoning to not love someone to love someone that’s the strongest thing you can do when you love someone you are weak and vulnerable around them it takes strength to put up with those emotions and be ok and understand that is the cost of living someone
Abuse is such a vicious cycle. It sucks that it's hard to uproot.
That's why I never had kids. I couldn't bear the thought of turning into my mother, and inflicting onto a child what she did onto me.
@@WobblesandBean same, its so reassuring someone else thinks like me. I'm called selfish and mean so thank u :)
@@stelk5355 yh i agree, glad someone feels the same way
@@stelk5355 you’re literally the opposite of selfish. I’m not having kids because I know I’d be a terrible mother. People don’t seem to understand that.
@@stelk5355Usually that comes from people who have kids so they don't end up in a nursing home later
I think Beatrice also had another issue.
How her mother reacted by demanding the family get Crackerjack's baby blanket, I think he was her mother's favorite. That along with Honey having nobody she could talk to sent her into a spiral that lead to Beatrice becoming the horse/woman we all know in the show.
While it's possible that Honey's reaction was just a mother grieving, I see it it more as possibly favorite child. I mean, a mother would've supported her daughter during such a traumatic time in the history of the world, let her have ice cream in secret.
But that's just my interpretation.
Agree. I think Honey may not have been the best. Something that also sticks out to me are Honey and Joseph's dark hair, while both of the kids are blonde.
I think the reason why she couldn’t have ice cream was because her mother had her on a diet. I don’t think it was about the rations
The feeling of losing a brother is not compared to one of losing a son, I know a little about grief because when my grandma died my mom was the one to tell me so, she said it like it wasn't such a big deal, she thought I wasn't close enough to her, but she could only see my face turning to one of sorrow and pure sadness, I cried for years about her death because she was one of the little people in my father's side of the family that cared for me.when you are in grief you dont think of anyone else's pain, I wanted my father to die because he didn't even tell me in person, even though he was probably heart broken because he lost his mother
I think Honey wasn't a bad parent or favored her son. She lost her son and losing a child can make you forget or be too sad to recognize your other child. I think if her father let her grieve or be emotional things could have been different. I get why things ended that way. Family trauma goes on till one changes the outcome or simply dies.
@@angelinamartinez4104 I’m not saying she was a bad mother at all. I just get the feeling Crackerjack was her favorite.
She is presented as both villain and victim, a cautionary tale. The cycle of abuse is a terrible thing, and, though it can _never_ excuse her perpetuation of it, she died as she lived- fully and truly alone. It's a tragedy that she never knew how to get better, or how to really ask for help. I'm not in a place where I'm able to watch this show in entirety for myself due to all that happens in it, but I'm glad there's folks like you examining the story so I can see it in all its nuances somehow.
Love your profile picture, and yeah. These video essays are great if you don't want to be fully immersed in that.. Sadness
Oh same
just wanted 2 say i genuinely love how you word things.
That’s why my husband and I frequently talk about “breaking the cycle” before we have kids. That includes me getting lots of therapy and making sure I’ve come to terms with all of my demons before we have children so that we can raise them to be better then Both of us, and make sure we don’t ever put our biases or issues on them.
my mom's abuse rubbed on me and i shamefully abused my sisters for a good while . i can never take back the damage i did to them , and i regret it every day . it's why i refuse to ever have kids because i'm scared that even with the help i've received , i'll fall into that cycle of abuse again .
This video is important if only because people are so quick to justify Bojack's abuses on account of his childhood, but don't give a second thought to hating Beatrice.
Yep! Just goes to show how abuse is a vicious cycle.
Exactly I feel like this often happens when both men and women are portrayed as complicated or "morally ambiguous"
Although I haven't finished the show, I find myself oddly more sympathetic to Beatrice (and also Diane, but she's not the subject of the video) than to Bojack. I think part of it is that I don't know all their motivations or what we're not seeing.
In terms of Beatrice, I don't think she was a loving a mother, but I also think we're getting the highlights reel of bad behavior as remembered by someone who hates her. She can be very nasty, but I also got the feeling that some of it wasn't purely selfish. I mean... it was always about Bojack more than her and getting Bojack to be successful (albeit not effectively). On the other hand... I can't forgive Bojack for sabotaging Todd's rock opera or for almost sleeping with Penny. Those actions had the deliberate intention of hurting others for Bojack's benefit.
But I might be misremembering something.
I think the reason people are more prone to defend bojack (other than him being the main character) is because bojack tries to be a good person, he wants to be a good person but sucks at it. Beatrice has no good intentions and actively relishes in making other people miserable. For me, I think both characters come off as sympathetic, but neither is justified in how they act
@@daliguj221 To me Bojack wasn't trying to be good until end, he just wanted to be told he was good.
you feel bad for the kid, but not the adult. kids don’t have choices in whatever happens in their lives, but adults can choose how they act/ react to circumstances.
It's true, but it depends on the era or time you're living too. What we consider toxic wasn't toxic in the 70s...
I think everyone deserves empathy. Just because an adult has choices, it doesn’t mean they are equipped. I have family who have been traumatized their whole life and pass down generational trauma as I’m sure most families do. No one had access to mental health support, no one had access to therapy or had the privilege to focus on their mental health. I’m the first in my family to seek help and therapy. So even though I’m the kid in the family, there is a lot my family still learns from me. Everyone deserves empathy because that gives them the opportunity to grow. That being said, you can open the door but can’t force people to walk through it. But empathy is foundational in healing
The concept of having choices depends if that person ever learned that they “have” a choice in how you react. That choosing to react differently than how you saw people reacting you’re how life and that to choose to react differently can bring positive change, is also something you first you need to learn/come to realise. It reminds me of a book I read about fleeing North Korean. The author clarified that most people fled bc of hunger and not bc they didn’t have human rights. It’s not that they didn’t want human rights or they felt it wasn’t that important. It’s that the North Koreans don’t have a concept of what human rights are. So saying a person can choose implies that this person knows that there are different options to choose from.
@@gilli494 you know I almost thought your point was...Well.. stupid in the beginning
But when you mentioned this Southern Korean problem I understood what you meant by learning to have a choice
Although it seems everyone has access to all kinds of knowledge some people are just closed and fixed to their own environment and teachings that they don't bother searching for other ways cause they can't even see that there are actually other ways
@@heyustabbedme empathy is fine. But excuses aren't, dear. What kind of trauma excuses these behaviors, if i may ask? Generational trauma is thrown around so often especially with first world kids. What? Your parents were mean to you and expected a lot from you and hit you as a child? Okay? So? I live in a poor country with zero mental health care, we struggle daily, and I was raped when I was younger. I'm not making excuses for my behavior. Every action we make is a choice. Don't make excuses for your actions because you were tRaUmAtIiiizzzed
This video gave me the realization that Beatrice's insecurities about her weight got passed on to BoJack in some way
It reminds me if an old saying from my mom that learned growing up in her town in Mexico. It's translation reads "The mistakes and burdens of one generation will carry on and it takes 4 generations to pay off those mistakes"
In a nutshell the mistakes made by Beatrice's parents and now a burden for Beatrice (and Crackerjack if he lived) to pay off with her life and the mistakes are now a burden to her. And later down the line it becomes Bojacks (and his half sister) to pay off that mistakes with his life as well. And this cycle of suffering continues until the 4th gen, if Bojack had kids, pays it off.
And she was this close to killing Hollyhock because of it. T_T
She also did it to hollyhock...
@@cookiegal7340 damn this is weirdly true. you gotta wise mom.
@@cookiegal7340 I think the technical term is generational trauma.
“I can’t believe you came back... you look just like him” damn that foreshadowing, she was talking to Hollyhock about how much she looks like Butterscotch
I understood that she was referring to her late husband and recognized Hollyhock as his baby, but the line doesn't make much sense to me, as Hollyhock looks _nothing_ like Butterscotch!
@@WobblesandBean I think she talks about how Hollihock looks like Bojack (because the line juste before is Hollyhock saying "Who ? Me ? Or Bojack ?" And Beatrice say "Yeah... you look just like him") ? I like the way she said it, it's one of the only moment where she seems calm when talking about Bojack
I thought she meant Crackerjack.
if she thinks the baby doll is henrietta's baby, does she just think Hollyhock is a friendly stranger who visits her in the nursing home?
@@alyssapinon9670 The baby doll is the same as her baby doll as a child, so I don't think she sees Hollyhock as the baby doll, she acknowledges that Hollyhock is Henrietta's baby
In her young adult years she was up to date on social issues and still had that sass that reminds me of her mother. I love her character then, she had the chance to overcome her trauma and her inability to overcome that ultimately is the saddest part of the show for me.
So true!
When Bojack is describing a nostalgic scene to her in the nursing home he says you're eating ice cream, and she hesitates before saying it's delicious. She wasn't allowed to eat ice cream back then. She's giving him that moment because HE won't know she did something for him.
What?
yes ! i remember this ! when he was trying to help her picture the summer home he asks if she tastes the icecream - shes never had it before yet she said it tastes delicious still !!
@@wulftheghost he asked if she could taste ice cream, not knowing that she’s never had ice cream
Oh my god I totally overlooked this. That hurts my soul a little more..
It took me a while to get it, but I knew the pause was important. She grew up with people insulting and/or "fixing" her weight, and at one point even tried doing that for hollyhock. She's carried this even into her adult life and final years. She wanted to show bojack in the final and only way she could that she cared, and he was helpful before she finally... got carried away. I may hate her character, but she is interesting. The writers really did amazing with the show.
Beatrice is a deeply hurt and truly complex character. At a young age she was told that she didn’t matter, her feelings didn’t matter. Her childhood was basically taken away from her, she was forced to grow up. When she was young you can see that she always floated around her mother, she loved her mom. when honey was lobotomized Beatrice watched her be taken away from her. She grew cruel to not let anyone hurt her. When butterscotch came into the picture it seemed like she could have a chance at a childhood, as seen in her teenageish actions when she first met him. She was always fed lies, which she did to bojack as well. Bojack only wanted a mother, but Beatrice who couldn’t change her ways because all she ever could have been was cruel. Just couldn’t be there.
She only grew cruel when she made a life-changing mistake. She was smart, educated, independent-thinking, and a decent person by 21. She knows this and couldnt let go of it. Kind of like Bojack, she spends her whole regretting this one thing.
Stories like these scare me because it shows that no matter how intelligent you are, the only person who will ultimately ruin you is yourself.
Edit: oops Beatrice was 21 when she met bj's father
@@angela.luntian Bring real life into this, my grandfather was like this. Smart, talented, rich, a wealthy wife, and 2 gifted children. But he fucked it all up with his ego and hatred of being looked down on. Now, all that wealth and talent is gone and all that's left is a sad egotistical man who can't live up to his mistakes.
Angela Kartolína Luntian actually 24-25, she was born in 1938 and met Butterscotch in 1963
Ok, your name is CURSED
Beatrice was traumatized by her mother favoring Crackerjack, it's obvious she grew up with the feeling that she was not good enough for her mother to stay sane for.
i think you totally misjudged lol
@@moremoucheits not that strange to think. Bea’s mom never let Bea do fun “boy” stuff (like eating ice cream) and had always been shown to love crackerjack way more. When bea’s mom tells her never to love anyone as much as she loved crackerjack, it tells you that she obviously didn’t love bea nearly as much. It would make sense that bea would internalize this as “my mother’s love for me isn’t enough for her to stay sane”.
but thats just one interpretation of it. art can be interpreted in many ways
Saw someone said she didn't love her daughter enough to heal
@@MysticTech bea’s mum not letting her do boy stuff was a product of the patriarchy she can hardly be blamed for being brainwashed like that from the get go and her father always forced way more harmful patriarchal ideals onto beatrice than her mother ever did. Also i dont think you have ever lost a child is you can judge bea’s mum for losing her mind upon losing her son, it was never a case of not loving beatrice it was just a case of loving crackerjack so much as she would with any of her children and i think her reaction would have been the same if she had lost beatrice instead of crackerjack.
A comment I once saw said something along the lines: This show doesn’t make you empathize with monster, but sympathize with the people they were
i think todd said it best, “you can’t keep doing this, you can’t keep doing shitty things and then feel bad about yourself like that makes it ok”
Sometimes it’s our shield. Playing the victim keeps the wall up. Cause acting like you’re hurting is easier than being strong
@@samhill5006 while i can understand that, that makes nothing ok and in the long run quite frankly makes things worse
Add on to the rest of that lovely quote "you NEED to be better!"
and THAT was when I saw so much more to Todd.
I think Jesse Pinkman said it better, tbr.
“HE CAN’T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH THISSSS”
@@abigfishinabarrenswamp I think Mr Todd would definitely channel Jesse Pinkman and call Bojack a bitch too, if he had the opportunity and courage. 😅
Despite how much I despised Beatrice, despite how much she reminded me of my toxic grandmother. Despite all of the horrible shit, I still felt something for her. I still watched her episodes and cried for her. Despite that I still don’t like her, I did FEEL bad for her. And that’s an insanely incredible from a writer’s perspective.
I hated Bojack's dad more than Beatrice.
It's a shame we didn't see why he was like the way he is
@@HagelBiscut maybe if he didn't die in that duel. Also who dies in a duel?
@@neallukenbill8467 Men, men die duels
I think I hated Bojack the most because he consistently got better and made the same mistakes and ruined his own life over and over
*Beatrice's dad ftfy (but I agree, Bojack's dad wasn't any better)
Beatrice thinks the people who hurt her were right, bojack sees that the people who hurt him were wrong - but continues to let what they did make decisions for him, diane can see that the people who hurt her were wrong and tries to make her own decisions in spite of it
Its like the echos of abuse growing fainter by generation. Bojacks parents were awful, he turned out bad but redeemable. The faint traces of his grandparents behavior are in him because the pain was passed down by his mother.
And Princess Carolyn is just awesome
This is such a great comment
@@RustandRedemption what bojack did to sarah lynn doesn't seem that redeemable
@@hellozukohere3070 But he does admit it was wrong, accepts his jail sentence, and worries about relapsing. He is far from perfect, but he is more empathetic than his parents and grandparents.
_"Love does things to a person. Terrible things. Beatrice? Promise me you'll never love anyone as much as I loved Crackerjack."_
*"I promise. I won't."*
"It's comforting that her character dies alone in a nursing home."
Jesus Christ.
I thought so too lol
I hate Beatrice too but wow that’s too much- it’s like your happy that someone died alone.
It’s karma
@@quitthischannellol4368 I don't think you can say they're happy it's more that she deserves it and I agree yes she had a horrible childhood but she could have changed
But she died in the ICU and Bojack was there
I think Beatrice's dad is a good example of actual abusive parents who aren't as severe and cruel as Beatrice was, but at the same time, ruined their children the same way. One moment they hurt you and they break you and the next they're kind and gentle and loving, and it convinces you that the abuse was okay or that it wasn't really abusive, and you constantly invalidate yourself for feeling like it was a bad childhood.
one of the things that really got me thinking about the show for a long time, is that beatrice doesn't really resent her father like bojack does, she hated him when he was being abusive, but as time went on, its almost like she forgot. When she is older, she talks about her father with respect, like he was a good guy who "really knew what a marriage was" even though he got her mother lobotomised and despised that his daughter preferred being a inteligent woman who would probably go on with his business over being the perfect wife
Worse part is, your parent actually loves you but they are broke too. So you feel torn between hating them and loving them for the good they did for you. That's the way it is with my mom. I hate her, but love her too
Exactly!
Exactly
He was severely abusive towards his wife (way more than any other character was at all tbh), enough to have her lobotomised… that naturally would have a knock on effect even if his abuse towards Beatrice wasn’t AS bad
As someone who grew up with a resentful, abusive mother so much like Beatrice, I cannot overstate how much her portrayal in this show helped me to recover from my own trauma and prevent the cycle from continuing.
I started watching the year before this season aired when I was fresh out of high school. Id literally run away from home to get away from my mother who made me feel worthless and constantly pushed me to make up for the things shed missed out on by having me at 17. There are literally EXACT lines that come out of bea’s mouth that were things my mother had said to me, like how id ruined her, that her unhappy marriage was my fault, that I HAD to do something great to make up for what shed lost by having me, and that my only worth came from the way I preformed my talents and fake happiness to others. She openly talked in front if me from a VERY young age about how she regretted not aborting or abandoning me. She even went as far as to literally poison me when I got pregnant in high school to prevent me from “making the same mistake she did”, without seemingly any concern for what I wanted from my life or the way that action would profoundly fuck me up for the rest of my adult life.
So essentially I got a full year of seeing bea at her worst, completely out of context, and the way it hurt Bo Jack and caused him to hurt others. I empathized with him and vented all my frustrations with my own mother onto bea. I hated her. And it was not only cathartic but also helped me explain to others what id gone thru, since up to that point all the fictional mother’s id really seen were either perfect loving childrearing machines or evil stepmoms who hated you bc they’re EEEEEVIL. It was really rare to see a biological mother portrayed as an abuser, to the point people would actually completely disbelieve me when I told them my father was loving and my mother was the one I was scared of, tell me I should be greatful she brought me into the world at all, which was the exact same sentiment she would use against me any time I tried to express that I was sad or scared or suffering… that I had no right to want anything better bc the act of just bringing me into the world was already more kindness than I deserved or should expect. Bea gave me something to point to and say “THAT. Thats what my mother was like and thats what my home life was like as a child. This is what it did to me.”
And then this season came out and bea came back with a whole new lesson for me. After watching this, bea still reminded me of my mother. She was still abusive, and she still hurt bojack in awful ways he’d prob never recover from… but I UNDERSTOOD her now. I understood how much pain there was under her indifference. I understood how she became an abuser after being so profoundly traumatized and abused herself… and she still reminded me of my mom. It made me more curious about what traumas might have been in her life before I was born, and it turns out they were pretty awful too. I found out my mom was given up temporarily while my grandmother suffered with postpartum depression, but that the relative she was given to fled with her and refused to give her back to her loving family, that she was profoundly abused and neglected by her adopted mother who almost definitely had her own issues i wasnt lucky enough to find out about. I learned that my mom had run off with my dad when they were still in high school in a lot of the same way I had run from her to escape her own abuse. I found out I was the first girl in 5 generations to be raised exclusively by my biological parents growing up, bc girls always cause postpartum depression in my family to an extreme that it causes loss of the ability to care for yourself, much less a new baby, and that it was bc my dad had put his foot down while my mother’s adopted family wanted to take me as a newborn.
None of it makes what my mother did to me OK, and none of it takes back the trauma I had to endure. None of it unfucks me up. And even with this new understanding I will never be close eith my mother the way most girls are. But I understand so much more now, I’ve grown so much as a person, overcome so much of my trauma, and tho I don’t yet and may not ever have children, my understanding of my generational trauma led me to make some rules in my life to stop the cycle; I made it clear to everyone i was ever with after this point that i didnt believe in shotgun marriages and was deadset on not having children that weren’t planned and wanted. When I married I made sure my husband knew that having kids would be something physically and emotionally harder on me than the average person, that I may get very depressed and need him to be the voice of reason during the process, and that I fully intend to raise any kids we have without teasing or corporal punishment bc it hurts their ability to trust you. I also reconnected with my family despite still not being on great terms with my mom in order to keep an eye on my siblings and make sure she doesn’t do the same things to them she did to me, and to try to get her out of an abusive relationship bc even if I kind of hate her, no one deserves that.
To be honest, without this show im not sure I would have had that realization. Im not sure I would have avoided making the same mistakes as my mother. Im not sure I wouldn’t have turned into the exact thing I hated so much. That means so much more than I can express.
Something that I love about the show is that they never actually justifies Beatrice’s actions. I don’t think the writers actually wanted to forgive her.
they only offer explanation for her (and everyone’s) behavior, but they never excuse them. even the titular character is never truly forgiven. the ones he hurt the most can no longer forgive.
If she was a real life person who would forgive her? Yes she was a victim of circumstances. But she never regretted it, only actknowlage it.
@@Vincent-yx7tg Speak for yourself. I have forgiven my mother, who is very much like Beatrice. That doesn't mean I accept her treatment to me and my family, nor that I will let her continue doing it. But I have forgiven, I don't resent her for it because I know she went through a lot herself. I cannot throw stones at someone who is still suffering for things that happened in her past. I can only work on my, and I have worked hard at understanding where she comes from, and fixing the damage she didn't know (or knew, I don't care) she did. My mother is in denial, so in her eyes, not only did she not di anything wrong, but obviously does not regret it. That's her problem, not mine. She never got the help she needed to fix hers. I can't impose my resentment on her. She has enough of it herself. We just can't hold other people to our standards. We can only hold ourselves to our own standards.
@@melistiltskin7889 To be honest it is very easy to not care about a random person, but when its family your own moter it is hard. My mom has similar trsits but she's far better then Beatrice thank God but she never had the emotional capacity to understand nor help to get through my emotions. And im still so mad at her for thinking she did everything she could? She didn't even try... My point is that what made you let go of your mother? Because i can't, maybe its the fact that im only 14 but i always try to change people for the better. Actually i started a week ago to not start drama with others just let it go, but its hard when it comes to family
@@Vincent-yx7tg Of course she wouldn’t regret it because to her she was doing what was best for her son. When you grow up abused, you usually don’t realize that it’s abuse until someone else points it out to you. Beatrice never had anyone tell her that she was abused, that her parents were wrong, and that she was continuing the cycle in her own way. Therefore she would never regret mistreating Bojack cuz to her she wasn’t abusing him but making him stronger just like her parents did for her.
Why wasn’t butterscotch horseman on the poll? He’s definitely my most hated character
I wanted to put him on the list but I didn't feel there was enough information in the show to support or explain his motivations.
Yep. I didn't like him.
Butterscotch is a close second but Joseph Sugarman is the worst imo, he started all the shit with Beatrice by forcefully lobotomising his wife and was sociopathically abusive to his daughter...
TOMO he didn’t start anything, he just exercised exactly what he was taught in a similar vain to Beatrice. Just because he didn’t get an entire dedicated backstory doesn’t mean he just decided to become the way he was
TBH, what is there to defend about Butterscotch? Like, I'd get if it was a regular list of unliked characters just for the sake of it, but since it's a lead-in to a "in defense of" essay, I totally get why the bastard wasn't on it.
0:43 why on earth have 47 people voted on Todd?
He's such a sweetheart, i love him so much
Right? He's adorable :(
some people hate him and its 😔
I have to admit, I’m not sure. I get not liking Todd, but hating him seems…. Odd.
also how he got more votes than BOJACK
Todd is probably one of the best characters on the show, his main flaws are laziness and agreeableness, and neither of those are particularly destructive. His happy ending is one of the best.
Among all the terrible, abusive cartoon moms, I'm glad that the writers gave more depth and insight into Beatrice to show how she became both the woman and mother we know her in the show.
The way Bojack was pushed by his mother reminds me of my childhood. I remember this one time where I forgot there was a history test coming in middle school. The class started with the teacher just saying "Get your pencils ready for the test!" I was so nervous I felt like I was going to vomit. But I breathed deeply inbetween each question and filled it out to the best of my ability. A few days afterward I got the results of my test and it was an A-. This was a short answer and multiple choice test so the chances of me getting that score with being an idiot is astronomical. I KNEW what I put down.
A girl in the class had even came up to me after finding out my grade and said:
"If you teach me about history, I'll be your friend."
For a kid that didn't have many friends, that meant a lot to me. I can't remember if I taught her what I knew but... I remember running home the moment that class was over. I got home and I showed the test to my mother. I explained that I didn't even study and that was the score I got. I was so proud of my ability to be able to just... KNOW something of significance.
Know what she said to me?
"If you actually studied, you'd get an A+."
I can't even describe how that deflated me. Despite the years of verbal abuse, physical abuse and neglect.... I just wanted my mother to see something I did and be proud of me. And she couldn't even do that. 4 years in the field of biology and getting my degree, I became a microbiologist. I felt good. Really GOOD. But when I shared that with her, she told me:
"When are you getting your doctorate? If you have a PHD, that's just perfect then."
I know there are ways she tried to want me to succeed but holy shit. She didn't show up for my wedding, my college graduation or call me on birthdays because she would say frequently for the last eight of them:
"I'm sorry. I had a bad day."
On your own sons birthday? Constantly?
So now. She's in the hospital. Sick and dying from COVID-19. After years of neglect and abuse, years of me sending her money in order for her to make ends meet, and wanting her approval... I WISH I could feel like Bojack did in that moment. To hold her hand, get close and say "FUCK YOU MOM!" But all I feel is... sadness. And a need for her to somehow become younger so we can start over.
Fuck.
I need a drink.
Hi I know it’s been a while since you posted this but how have you been doing?
@@speckthebunbun4533 My mother died from covid, I’m on anti depressants and moved onto a new job. It’s been rocky but I’m trying to get better.
@@RamzalTimble First of all my condolences for the loss of your mother. It is pretty clear that despite her abuse of you you genuinely wanted to be able to have a second chance with her. Shoot I don’t know what to say next. I’m no good at this whole talking to others thing.🥲 I guess I wanted to say that you have accomplished some pretty awesome stuff. From making it in such a complex field of science to finding love to by student standards ACING a history test(seriously buddy you knew the required knowledge that’s what school is supposed to be about). I’m still pretty young by most standards (but we all know the shitty being known as fate doesn’t discriminate) and what I and my sister went through wasn’t abuse but it was still pretty damaging so I know how how you feel. Well this got long. But these are pretty heavy topics so I guess that’s why. ANYWHO have a good day or afternoon if that’s the appropriate word for your time zone!
@@RamzalTimble hope life will go more smoothly for you from now on.
Hopefully you do have a few good memories with your mother and that can help you move on from her death.
It's going to take years. It's going to be hard. But you will eventually realize that you don't regret anything anymore.
Hope your new job is to your liking! Take care!
I'm proud of you
The message of Beatrice is so, so important. You don't have to forgive your abuser--but understanding them, especially in circumstances like Beatrice--is vital to your empathy, your growth, and your healing. To be sad about what they could have been, and understand that maybe with the right tools it wouldn't be this way and it fucking sucks you didn't get to have them in that state, but hate who they were and understand you weren't at fault for it. That really, society as a whole was the problem all along and you got taken along for the ride, and maybe they did too, but you don't have to let that be your entire life.
I love how they portrayed Beatrice's youth, especially because lobotomies were very common for women experiencing depression or...well, almost anything at all. It was a very loose practice, with one advocate performing lobotomies in client's homes, into the 60s. It's really not a stretch that this happened to Beatrice's mother or that she would be afraid of it happening to her. Ironically, because of her dementia, it kind of did anyway.
So fucking terryfing, that fact almost convince about feminism
@@Rokiotop900 almost? lobotomies arent enough for you to believe in femenism?
@@ElizabethStripes-nk8ww Nope
@Melon Sauce They have right now equal rights
@@Rokiotop900
Nah
I'd hate having her as a mother, but she's a good character; honestly, I could empathize with her and felt really sorry for her sometimes. The script writers did an excellent job.
I think she deserves no empathy whatsoever for all the pain she has caused. The only way to be better is to admit what you have done.
@@captainhowlerwilson508 you can admit to your faults when you are in a better place Beatrice was never in that place to admit and ask for forgiveness for what she has done. If Beatrice got a divorce and went through therapy she could have been a better mother and person/ horse in general.
I've watched and rewatched Bojack Horseman countless times and I've never fully understood Beatrice until now. You perfectly explained why she is the way she is: "When Beatrice's mom said never to love anyone, Beatrice accepted because she had seen the damage being attached to people can bring." Amazing video.
The first time I cried while watching the show was actually a pretty strange moment. It's the one where Secretariat is reading Bojack's letter on TV, and then his parents come in, fighting so much that he can't hear. Bojack's parents really stole his childhood from him.
Yes! And the way it wasn’t even made to be the monumental disappointment it would’ve been for most people. The abuse in his life was so consistent, it wasn’t even a memory worth being dwelled on over any other disappointment in his life. It was the first time I felt devastated watching the show. So well done.
You've probably heard this since then but the creators intended for bojack to have ina way been in a way been listening too closely as he had taken the advice in the wosrt way where he could never learn from his past becuase he thought there was nothing there for him.
I love how that scene was do ambiguous.
Did he hear it? Did he not over the shouting?
I never hated Beatrice as much as I hated Bojacks Dad. That’s a fact.
They're both horrible, the only difference is that Beatrice got more screen time that is both good and bad
Bojacks Dad and Beatrice's dad as well
I hate bojacks dad more. He got his son drunk so he could keep his mouth shut about the affair that HE had!! It’s fucking sick
@Hatersoftloup2arepathetic Yoloswag meaning i hate bojack s dad more than Beatrice. Now that I understand where’s she’s coming from.
Same
This character is so tragic and I honestly love her for that. The complexity she displays makes her the most interesting character in the show
Why did Todd get any votes on the character poll. He's one of the most wholesome charterers ever
Ikr he's second like tf
maybe they didn't like how he was irresponsible in the earlier seasons? that's all i can think of but i love him a lot
all i can think of is how he's more comedic relief than a serious character but like...i dont agree at all asfhisah he's a serious character 100% who happens to be a bit goofy
Ò ‸ Ó I love Todd bc it's so crazy how that even though he really isn't anybody special, just some young guy who was at bojack's party and never left, he somehow managed to pull everybody together and gave pretty much all of the main characters a lot of support. Like he took care of PC's baby, was bojack's best friend, even peanut butter's best friend, and Diane's friend. Although Todd wasn't rly anybody for the longest time, I always found him relatable and how he comes up with crazy conclusions that somehow works based on irrelevant facts. Also he had an amazing character development. Although everybody had a big character development except for bojack I think Todd had the biggest one and I love how it improved over seasons more than right away
Exactly
as someone with an extremely difficult relationship with my mom i cried like a baby when bojack took her to the home and told her all those lovely things. it was just so real that even though this person has caused you so much hurt you don’t want them to be alone. sobbing hysterically
Bojack turned into his dad, but we sympathise with Bojack as we know his backstory. Unfortunately Butterscotch more than likely had a traumatic childhood too and so the cycle continued.
butterfly effect
Yup why I decided not to have kids it ends with me
Not always true. It all has to do with mindset and taking accountability. You are responsible for being honest with yourself and making yourself grow. It can hurt, and you can feel like giving up sometimes.
My dad was a heroin addict and my mother pimped me out as a young teen. I’m nothing like them, because I don’t have to be.
I’m independent from them mentally, it broke me separating myself from them, but it’s my only chance.
It’s been a lonely ride, but I understand myself, and that’s all I need to keep pushing.
The only people who end up the same are people who refuse to look at themselves, say they’re a bad person, and work day after day for years to change.
It feels easier to give up and be a victim
@@virginiaarthur5 Similar feelings
But I have become quite good with kids so depending on the love I find, I might have a child.
I liked Beatrice...she's the personification of generational trauma and how we unknowingly live our life in the lense of trauma
depicting trauma and how it affects people is so complicated but bojack horseman does a beautiful job at it
This whole thing reminds me of a quote I heard once. "Children wait a lifetime for an 'im sorry' and parents wait a lifetime for a 'thank you'
it's rare that abusers abuse on purpose. she's still abusive.
yeah, like the backstory doesn't redeem her at all. You can see where she came from, but I still hate her. She's still very abusive
Wouldn’t say rare, it’s just not black and white. There are so many different reasons behind everything
That makes it worse, then.
I wouldn’t call it rare, theres a lot of abusers who have a reason to Abuse.
Here’s an example ;
Doug From Dark deception - Dougs mother was blinded by Rage and Sadness, And I wouldn’t blame her. Dougs father left his mother when he was very Young and didn’t Feel any regret and didn’t get guilt dripped sense he was a MAN. and Unfortunately for Doug, he got the most of his genes from his father.
@@xmilfmommyx7056 that's a horrible reason. "I hate you because you have your fathers genes"
No shit, really? Where else was he gonna get em, the boogeyman?
She reminds me of my own mother, which made her scenes with Bojack incredibly hard to watch. My mom did love and care for us kids, but it was obvious her past and life experiences shaped her, and I witnessed it first hand after she got back together with my father. She was happy without him and her life fell apart when he came around again and they had another kid (my younger sister), and I’m grateful my mom has never openly expressed to my sister that she was the reason my mom stuck with my dad and she was the reason her life was slipping through her fingers. It took me a long time to love my sister after realizing she didn’t ask to be brought into the world and didn’t mean to affect our mothers happiness. When I started growing up and realized I had to become a third parent in the house for my sister, I look back now and see that I had acted a lot like Beatrice to my sister. And I know that’s affected her, but the only thing I can do now is break the cycle and be the positive person in my sisters life that I never had and that my mother never had.
❤
I must admit that she is well written. She reminds me so much of my grandfather whose mother went literally insane after the loss of her husband in WW2 was followed by the death of her youngest son (the only one who looked like his dad) at age 2 due to a lung infection. My grandfather and his older brother moved in with their aunt who constantly belittled them and his brother let his anger out on him and quickly began causing trouble which made the aunt even more abusive. My grandfather worked at the age of 11 after school so he didn't have to go home and never really had someone who could trust and so always wanted to fix everything on his own. The only time he let his guard down was my grandmother who was headstrong and didn't rely on him, but she really wanted a child and pressured him into at least having one. He gave in and had a son with her and according to my dad, grandpa was very distancing and let him know that he didn't want him if it wasn't for grandma. The only lesson he taught my dad was to never put your trust and happiness into someone else's hands he even yelled and my grandmother when she comforted dad when he cried in preschool. My grandfather never had someone who was there for him and had to do all himself and thinks it's a good message to teach instead of breaking the circle and being there for my dad. My grandfather saw through his mother what happens when your happiness relies on others.
Right now he and dad are on bad terms and we only visit him because of grandma and her dementia because grandpa has trouble being a caretaker
I recently asked my dad if he sees grandpa as a good father and he just said "No, but don't tell him because he thinks he is". Ugh
Thank you for sharing this ❤️
Yep thank you
Wow. Thanks for sharing this
" Everyone is a product of their past and we are all just people just trying to live through despite of that pain"
Yeah, but once you grow up you have the responsibility to be a good person and to not be abusive to others. Your intent doesn‘t matter. What matters is that you listen to people, that you take feedback into account and that you take on the reaponsibility to better yourself. If you can‘t do that, you don‘t deserve forgiveness or redemption. There‘s a bunch of people out there who‘ve lived through terrible childhoods and they work their a*ses off to be a good person, breaking the cycle and to be better than the people that hurt them. If you can‘t do that, if your ego is too inflated to adapt and change and if your pride blinds you to what you‘re doing to your loved ones and how it affects them then you don‘t deserve any redemption or any forgiveness. Abuse victims don‘t have to forgive their abusers and if their abusers can‘t learn then it is 100% justified for you to cut them out of your life. I‘m so tired of people using explanations of how abusers were abused too to shift the conversations away from the present and back to the past. I know you‘re not trying to take away responsibility from the abusers with your comment but the implication is still the same. So many people do better than Beatrice. Far better. Her past is never an excuse for her actions as an adult.
@@takke9830 finally someone said it
she's a terrible parent but she's an amazing character. she's definitely one of my favorites BJH characters
I feel sympathy for Beatrice. She didn't deserve what she had to go through. I can never forgive her for what she subjected BoJack to, though. There is no valid excuse in the world for child abuse, let alone of that magnitude. He didn't deserve to go through that either.
Great video.
I also think it’s really interesting how sexism and the role of women plays into Beatrice’s story. If her dad hadn’t been the prime example of toxic masculinity, if he had been able to deal with emotions (his own, those of his wife, and Beatrice’s) she wouldn’t have become so cold. Had she not grown up in such a cold and sexist environment, she wouldn’t have felt intrigued by Butterscotch. Had she had proper sex education (which I’m sure she didn’t have, since she was expected to marry well, do as her husband say and have kids), she wouldn’t have got pregnant. And most importantly, hadn’t there been the stigma against women with unplanned children, or single mothers, or divorced women, she wouldn’t have had to stay married to Butterscotch and become even more miserable and abusive.
Of course this doesn’t really excuse her behaviour, her trauma also doesn’t excuse it, but her trauma and the absolutely unjust and sexist environment she was raised in definitely explain her abusive nature (and why she would raise a sexist and emotionally incapable son like Bojack).
her not showing emotions is basicaly result of todays "dont cry or else ill give you a reason", parents basicaly manipulate theyr kids into thinking emotions are bad so then in later life the kid grows up emocionaly 'broken'. her father fucked up everything he could and she just went with what she learned is a proper parenting. it doesnt exuse her actions but she was lost from begining, not even psychiatrist would help in her adult hood
@@weebshit6728 well but also, her father was completely emotionally stunted. Beatrice never learnt how to accept and deal with her emotions. I think a psychiatrist totally could’ve helped her, cause I’m a huge proponent of therapy, due to my own experience with it.
Abuse can never be excused, but it can be explained.
She's a good example of what can happen when limiting rights and taking away options in order to fulfill the expectations of what women are supposed to act/be.
You can add Corbin Creamerman to this comparison. Corbin is the nicest man in Beatrice's life, and he's also the *least manly*. He shows honesty, modesty and emotional openness. This is why she's initially totally disinterested in him, but then realises that he might actually be a decent person.
I really, REALLY hate to say it, but this video helped me to forgive my abusive father, because he was abused worse than I was. And damnit I still can't stand the idea that it was okay, just that I hate him less than I used to.
Yeah, I had a meltdown one day last year, crying in my car, I felt afraid and alone. It dawned on me both of my parents had felt that way too at one point or another, but they turned to drugs and alcohol to quell the fear and self hatred. It made feel bad for them. I'm lucky to have had great therapists, and friends and some family who thankfully guided me to a different path. Much love to you. And I hope you heal ♡
Yeah, it's hard to forgive someone you still hate.
Grown-ups (mostly religious people) have always told me "you need to forgive people and let go of your hate in order to have peace"
and this one specific line that my teacher said back then that always stuck with me
"You can't just say you forgave someone and then say "but I don't wanna see your face ever again'"
She said it in Tagalog so idk what's the best translation (just in case, she said the exact words "bawal mo naman sabihin na pinagbigyan mo na yung tao tapos sasabihin mo "oh pero ayaw ko na makita pagmumukha mo'")
I think it's definitely possible to forgive someone and still hate them. But GOD it's definitely hard and that's an understatement
This is incredibly profound... Damn
Beatrice's backstory was hard to watch, her actions towards her son aren't forgivable, but can be explained. She was raised in a toxic environment, which led to her being toxic.
Letting henrieta not holding the child they olso didnt "bond" so the pain of losing her baby is less painfull. Atleast that is how i see it
Judging by Henrietta's shriek after her baby was taken away, it didn't work. She was trying to help but it didn't change the fact it hurt
@@sleevelovecraft9513 and if she did let her hold hollyhock she’d have gotten attached. There was no good solution to this problem.
@@Tmcclernon she carried Hollyhock for nine months, how more attached can you be?
Many people who give up babies for adoption hold their children. Its extremely difficult but because that's what's best for their children, they give the children up
This show is so good, the way it portrays generational trauma is so accurate
I can't believe how much Bojack's eulogy foreshadows his near-dearh experience. It's chilling.
Omg
The thing I find intriguing is how Beatrice doesn't seem to have any friends. Like, at all.
She never really had any, being bullied in her younger years. She probably didn't try to get those connections later in life so she wouldn't become vulnerable.
She had her supper club though?
Kimmy Seon supper clubs do not equal a close friend you can confide in. Its just supper club. A social event that happens.
@@Awesomekittyness still she knew people in her supper club enough where she would invite them into her house and perform for them that means she had to talk with them and be somewhat friendly maybe she wasn't close with any of them but it's not like she had no social skills or life outside her marriage
Kimmy Seon that’s not the problem. beatrice didn’t have friends cause she didn’t allow herself to be vulnerable. having friends was becoming attached with love and her mother told her never to do that. so she didn’t. that’s why she had supper club but didn’t allow herself to become besties with them. You can have a social life but not have any people as close friends
When Beatrice is taking away Hollyhock from Henrietta and Henrietta begs to hold her Beatrice says “No, you’ll just get attached” or something along those lines. She truly thought taking away Hollyhock ASAP would make it easier. Beatrice’s childhood and Bojack dropping her off in the nursing homes are the only parts in this show that made me sob and I mean SOB MY HEART OUT, they hurt so badly
Ultimately I felt Bojacks dad was so horrible and the most vile
IcyElle I think it’s hard to hate Butterscotch because we don’t get to see his story the way we see Beatrice’s. We don’t know what made him that way, and we especially don’t know what living with an abusive partner did to his mental health.
@Instrumentality1000 Vance Waggoner is def worse imo
When he tells Bojack his mother (or a woman) weeping is just for attention or to annoy him. 🙄🙄
Do you take the horn like a gentleman or the canal like some kind of democrat?
NO YOU TAKE THE HORN LIKE GOD INTENDED
@@hanscapon222 dude what
Beatrice really helped me to understand dementia, which really helped me when my grandfather got it, I don't think I can forgive her for the things she done but I understand why she was the way she was, she was a victim too
Her character perfectly demonstrates what it's like to loath a person for the way they hurt you while also understanding and even empathizing with the past traumas that'd evolved them into that person to begin with.
I like this video a lot because it does not ignore the abuse and cruelty Beatrice put Bojack through. It doesn't try to rationalize or justify it, It is just an explanation of why Beatrice is the way she is. Her storyline and past is so disturbing and fascinating.
This video made me understand that one can be traumatized by their parents but still love them with their whole heart in the way Bea did with hers.
Heartbreaking, all the way through.
"You were born broken. Your Bojack horseman, theres no cure for that"
just one big ooof
I actually love Beatrice as a character.
As someone who had a pretty rough childhood, seeing Beatrice’s backstory really helped me process my trauma and understand why my parents were how they were and now I’m closer with them than ever.
The writers did an incredible job with her story arch.
Same
love is a strong word dontcha think
For me it was opposite, I understood that I won't let this person enter my life anymore. She was adult, she must clean her mess by herself, for example reflex on her behaviour sometimes. Instead she almost destroyed my psyche to feel a little better. For some reason I managed to reflect on my behaviour once I grew up, why she didn't? But of course, not only bojack. Mostly therapy, but it intersected. Bojack brought me relieve understanding how much world hate such people like she is.
Beatrice reminds me of the old phrase "Just because someone lives a life of darkness, doesn't mean they chose to turn off the light themselves". Beatrice is a great example of someone who just wants to be happy. She's cruel and evil, yes, but not for a lack of effort. As states, she's a product of her past.
Beatrice reminds me a lot of my mother. She was as emotionally abusive like Beatrice (as you can expect from her rough childhood and generational trauma). Because she had a hard life, she went to smoking and gambling. Staying in a rough relationships because she felt like that was the only thing she had going for her. And while she tries to do reverse psychology (try to say rude things in order to motivate them to do better) so that her kids won’t go through what she went through, it inevitably pushes them to go through trauma albeit a different way than she did. Now my mom is alone and in the nursing home because of covid and how hard she is to take care of. It’s just depressing in the grand scheme of things. I still love her and I saw her trying to change her habits before she got sick. Now she’s completely changed and I wanna he with her through this new journey in her life, especially because she’s never really had a consistently “happy” part of her life.
Me relating her to my mom does not excuse Beatrice’s behavior and how she traumatized him. Just like how Bojack’s trauma doesn’t justify his behavior. It’s just sad that she couldn’t’ve turned a new leaf and instead wallow in the abusive cycle because that’s all she knew. I think Bojack effectively avoided the continuation of generational trauma due to the fact he didn’t have kids. However, look at the state of the kids he had surrounded himself with. At least he’s truly trying to do good now. I wondered if therapy would’ve hep Beatrice or sent her spiraling even harder after what happened in her childhood?
My mom was a battered child because of my grandma, because her dad was an abusive alcoholic.
Not having kids isn't stopping the abusive cycle, just merely avoiding it. If you truly want to break the cycle it would be by taking active steps to show proper love and appreciation to your own children
I haven’t watched BoJack so I was in for quite the shock when hearing Eda the Owl Lady’s VA coming from a bad horse parent. Anyways, Beatrice reminds me of my one grandmother who was treated pretty bad by her parents, causing her to take it out on my dad and my brother verbally further down the line. She really tries to be a good grandmother but she is held back by her past trauma. She is so much more open and loving than she was years ago. I wish for the day that children get to grow up happy and free from trauma.
Same here, as a TOH fan coming back to Bojack feels really strange, but this show is amazing so its worth it.
I wish you and your grandmother the best, I’m happy to hear that shes become more open :)
It's so strange that I know it's Eda but I forgot she was Eda the moment I watched this episode or many eoisoes before that.
I normally don't forget these things especially because the voice is so recognizable.
Like when I can remember Sarah Lynn's name I just remembered Mabel and looked up who voiced her and look up who else she voiced 🤣
Probably because her voice fits wonderfully for a character like Beatrice way more than Eda, (I know it's a controversial take but) her voice just has that vibe where you can't imagine any other voice for Beatrice
Despite the characters being different, We must protect Wendie Malick at all costs!
Beatrice became one of my absolute favorite character studies. Voiced by Wendie Malick she was hilariously cruel and the very real abusive Mother so many people, including me, had as a kid. She was selfish and unhappy and never took responsibility for her horribleness. Her life wasn't easy though, and you can see an alternative version of Beatrice that turned out very differently. She never tried though, and her character served as an excellent backdrop to illustrate how much more Go back has been trying. This Fucking show, man!
Also in season 4 episode 11 when bojack opens his fridge in a memory of a conversation between him and his mother to get alcohol, his fridge is full of sugar and lemons, showing how what Beatrice was brought up with internalized and she forced bojack to internalize some of the same things.
Schafrillas couldn't figure out why the HollyHock pill thing happened so suddenly but you are absolutely right; the signs were all there and it was in character for her to act that way. Also that whole thing with Henrietta feels infinitely more tragic now because of your point about how Beatrice was actually trying to save her from the pain. Great analysis video; I'm going to check out your other ones!
Beatrice got naturally drawn to Buttersctoch cos he reminded her of her own cold father.
I’d also like to add to her defence that even the fact that she wasn’t angry at her father shows a greater damage than bojack! Bojack got to express his negative feelings towards his parents but Biatrice suppressed them so deep down that she couldn’t even admit she was hurt by those things and kept on admiring what her dad did in his marriage!
I think Beatrice and Bojack are a great example of generational trauma (trauma that happens to one member in the family and it gets passed on from generation to generation) that started because of Bojack's grandparents when their son died.
When he leaves her in the nursing home, he messes up some kind of Ice Cream thing, andBeatrice remembers where she was. That made me sad.
This! I know a lot of people have made the point that in that moment she does actually realise where she is. Her hesitancy to tell Bojack that the ice cream is "delicious" is her deciding to lie to him so he feels like he made her feel better, a small act of kindness and the last we see of her suppressing her emotions, but this time for Bojack's benefit.
River Darling Art & ASMR aw
River Darling Art & ASMR Yes, especially because she never was allowed to have icecream, she probably never knew what it tasted like
@Instrumentality1000 I do! And I think she actually recognised him making the change in this instance.
Instrumentality1000 i don’t know though, bojack does that a lot where he “seems to learn” such as having a girlfriend, trying to reach out to his daughter, saving Todd from a cult... and then goes back to his self defeating ways. He constantly relapses and then punishes himself and others for it which is absolutely not healthy and showing that he does not actually break a cycle when he does one nice thing for his mother. It’s just another example of him trying that he will likely beat himself up for later one
i love beatrice as a character, hate her as a person. her traumatic experience as a child explains her actions as a parent, but in no way does it excuse them
Excellent character building all around
I was thinking about how there are people who had abusive parents and shitty childhoods but don't grow into assholes. I'm thinking what Beatrice lacked was the ability or willingness to change. She new she was a shitty parent, but instead of being better she just shrugged it off as some badness that runs in the family.
Exactly right no excuse
Beatrice did not apologize to Bojack for how she treated him. She showed remorse for creating a child cursed by her and Butterscotch's blood. It's part of her continuing abuse towards Bojack. She STILL didn't take responsibility for anything.
She got that from her father, and Bojack got it from her. All three of them are deeply destructive people who are unable to admit when they’re the problem.
I’d say the main difference is that due to the societies they lived in, Beatrice never really had control over her life, and any times when she did, she made the wrong choice. Sleeping with Butterscotch was the first time we see her make a real, meaningful choice for herself and it was absolutely the wrong one
this show does an amazing job showing generational trauma. it’s incredible
This show is truly amazing. The way they portrayed Generational Trauma and its consequences.... I am speechless. Perfect summary of Beatrice Horseman. She was as much of a victim as BoJack was.
She's a great examples of how her past doesn't make her actions any less cruel, but it tries to give you a sense of empathy and help you question why she did those things.
I never hated Beatrice. She reminded me of my grandma, who had alzheimer's. I watched the season finale of this show the day before she died, and Beatrice's (second) "death" scene really struck me hard. I ended up being able to speak at my grandma's funeral a few weeks later, probably, due to this show.
Her character is actually the reason that I love the show so much, you hate her for all of the shitty things she says and does to Bojack, but at the same time, you get to see how she was brought up and how her upbringing causes her to be such a terrible parent herself. She is scared by the things she witnessed as a child such as her brother dying, her mom becoming basically braindead, and her father being over controlling. All of this combines to create her parenting style towards Bojack. It's the only way she knows how to parent. It also shows that even though Bojack never meets his grandparents, they are still a huge part of his life through how his mother raised him, and maybe, if she hadn't raised him the way she did, he would have never become an actor, or an alcoholic, or such a terrible person (horse).
14:37 After watching Bojack multiple times, binge watching hours of video essays, and reading *endless* discussions, never have I once ever encountered this take on Joseph Sugarman. It's honestly really refreshing, and I actually agree! Without a doubt he was an asshole who did...everything he did, but I never once realized the good that came from (or would've came from) some of his suggestions. They needed to burn her things. She should've married Corbin Creamerman (this was for business reasons, but it's heavily implied he would've been a kind and loving partner for Beatrice). He gave Butterscotch a job with great benefits. Wow!
Beatrice Horseman was a truly tragic and complicated character for sure. Yes she was awful, but that's just part of why her character arc was so tragic. Like so many of the characters in Bojack Horseman. I've said before that BH is one of the only shows I've watched in a long long time that felt like I was actually watching real people. And it was an internet cartoon about a talking horse.
10:20 theres so many studies that show that holding your baby right after they’re born makes you feel so much more attached and connected to the child
I feel like Joseph Sugarman never completed the quote, so here it is completed in my mind.
"Times arrow neither stands still nor reverses, it always marches forward, however it is up to the archer where it will land"