"GW can get away with anything" sums it up perfectly. You can see some discontent with the rise of OPR but just look how people came running back to them for The Old World as if they wouldn't can that again in an instant.
they could but it wouldn't change any thing. Dude, they killed my game back in 2014, i kept playing 8th edition for 10 years. If they were stupid enough to can Old world the fans wouldsimply hijack the the game as we did with fantasy battles and do our own thing. As it is, most of us are just trying to get those old modelswe either missed out on or value more as they were our childhood. the Rule set needs fixing up but isn't terrible. To be honest, it is nice to have a supported game system to some degree, but make no mistake, we don't trust them for a minute.
I suspect that there's a lot of those customers who didn't come back... they just picked up the old models they loved that they couldn't get any more. I don't know for sure that people are really looking to play that game any more.
There is also this fallacy that people think "Well if I get a GW army I can come to any store in the world and play it" while smaller games might not get played or the company might close. A lot of smaller games die. But GW might just delete your whole army or game system, and they quite regularly do it so the risk isn't actually any smaller.
Don't be a fan: be a customer. Being a fan enables them to get away with treating you like crap. (TBF, it sounds like you're stopping being a fan, and just being a customer, even if you don't change the labels, but I'm sure you get my point)
Finally, someone calling out all the GW terrible choices! This is just the latest in a long line of garbage. I'd love to see your take on Trench Crusade by the way.
I was a beasts player who was exicted to take my army into the new edition, then had my heart broken when I learned my bovine boys were no longer going to be supported despite being a HUGE part of the world(s) they exist in.
I know! It's the one decision I don't understand, and while I enjoy Old World if anyone told me "Just go play Old World" I'd be so mad. It's two completely different game systems
I advise you to watch the video "why do people love to hate primaris marines" by Arbiter Ian. Goes into all frustrations you are feeling, but also from the strange expectation the fans expect from a company.
A minor counterpoint. Tabletop War games aren't like video games where you're forced to install the latest patch. You can play a previous version with previous rules if you can get an opponent to agree to it. But of course the key part is getting someone to agree to older rules. There's a mentality among players of all stripes that we must all agree to play the latest rules.
I agree with that, and plan on making a video specifically about it. But at least locally the vast majority of people move on to the next edition of a game
Heresy players over here patiently waiting 2 years for a melee kit... I stopped giving GW money directly and it was justified by their terrible business practices and lack of support for a game they ostensibly say is "the third most popular." They can't keep product in stock for most ranges - and just want you to chase FoMo. No thanks GW.
the previous version of 40k was great, now everything is stuffed into this pattern, I want my rules on the units instead of this formation logic, I've been through a lot of editions it's no fun anymore how they have to reinvent the same thing all the time
Rather strange 40k is not on the list, when arguably it's in the worst possible state game and quality wise. I went from a 40k main, to an AoS main, to a MESBG main. And I adore MESBG! I wanna play the other games but I can hardly find the reason to do so - none of them feel like "strategy" games anymore.
All valid points, but especially for the AoS ones, for your KT frustrations i can only symphatize with some. compendium was used by GW as a jump in point for you to get into the bespoke teams, so if after 3 years of an edition and you still not have a bespoke KT I think that game is not for you (Although yes I have to admit it's stupid that some of them 40k faction still haven't got a bespoke KT). and in my city I can comfortably find at least 2 games per week for KT, so although putting a timer on models is never good, I can tolerate it (to a degree) more than most people out there.
@Wargamerofalltrades i know being an esl isn’t an excuse, but i know should’ve worded it differently. I guess it’s more like “if you really like the game you would’ve found a bespoke team that resonates with your play style”? (Of course if you’re looking for your faction representation in KT that’s a different thing altogether and i agree that they did a bad job on that)
That makes a lot more sense thanks, and I still have my fingers crossed for Custodes representation, but I'm probably stuck playing the older edition for now
mantic deadzone,kings of war. modiphious fallout wasteland warfare. and the new ks trench crusade. I have plenty to keep me going without gw take a look you might like some of em
I might be getting old, but I have seen this as something of a trend in most entertainment industries; The production quality of the product goes up, but in the pursuit of profits (or through simply not caring), the experience quality plummets. Ever since WHFB got axed in favour of AoS (which at the time, outright mocked the fanbase with some of the rules, btw) my loyalty to GW has been wavering at best. It sucks, but apparently that is how it is.
I remember when they went "We're still working on the rules. Here are the basics. Also no points yet, just treat wounds as points. Yes, goblins and chaos warriors cost the same. No, we don't care."
@Drubnubjagr Rules like that were fun. A great rule for battlefleet gothic was "If the model's unpainted, it's fresh out the shipyard so the crew has the lowest leadership they can roll."
As long as people only play GW games and don't buy in into other games they won't see it as a problem. They need to protect the company due the amount of money they spent on their products.
I LOVED the explanation GW gave to the AoS/40k sunsetting: "it ain't like we can give rules to ALL models we make" . They are not even trying... But seriously, thank you for having a "King's new clothes" moments . Whenever I watch any warhammer-related channel, they all just brush it away as "silly GW antics" or sum, but at least now SOMEONE admitted how rotten all of this is ..
This used to be more common but GW got it's shit together about the internet and is hugely flexing their muscles with free preview boxes etc. for content creators. It made them all fall in line 'cause they're too small to afford not to and it costs them almost nothing.
@senti5468 and that's really sad. I wondered what was the price for someone's loyalty in money, but I thought we were all better than being complacent in... army toys?
For the lotr range, lots of it is metal. And I did not see the sales figures, but I would not be surprised if it was less then a handfull of models sold per year. I understand that range got axed as much as it did.
Beasts of chaos have always been my favorite faction in fantasy and AOS. It’s the faction I’ve always wanted to collect. Now I have to use alternatives like frostgrave minis since the majority are not in stock
start with understanding how many people you need in your group in order to enjoy your game? In my case its perfectly fine if I have 3 or 4 opponents in total for most of my games. I have someone I play Saga with, someone I play Lasalle 2 with, someone I play Fallout Wasteland Warfare with etc. You are not and should not be the hostage of a company based on "the option to find lots of people who play that game". that is a bad take. first of all you don't usually want to play with random people. but with people who you know and enjoy the game with. even if that person is just... one. free time is a commodity we don't really have as adults. count yourself lucky if you play once per week and try to make that game a memorable and fun game instead of chasing the popular game and the fact that is played by the majority. most good games are niche games and hard to find opponents for. but try to find one other person who enjoys Silver Bayonet and craft together a good scenario you will play once per month. and you will be happier for it.
Hate GW at this point, but I keep my armies because as you said you can always get a 40k no matter where you go. I’ll only keep the bare minimum, the rest of my focus goes to OPR, Battletech, and all the other great games that aren’t so disrespectful.
Sad Gervasio make me sad. :( Oh, also, you forget to tell about the fact that, after the vespidXscion starter gw made a new one with space marine vs death guard featuring ALL NEW FREAKING MODEL. LoL
@@Wargamerofalltrades some places (like Europe) never got the Heroes line, so they are essentially a new thing here
2 місяці тому
Well, if some miniatures game has stable rules and a stable range and stable gameplay, it's *not* in a sustainable good place - quite the opposite, such a game is unsustainable and dying, because it doesn't really sell new boxes; and it simply has to either change or be discontinued. A game system is sustainable long-term if and only if it will sustain new sales of new kits to the same long-term audience.
Trench Crusade as an entity is a bit iffy to me, I don't have the greatest love for how the models look but the lore is pretty good. I'm gonna wait and see how the kickstarter goes and then join the bandwagon if in person models look better.
@@Wargamerofalltrades it's model-agonistic, so far as I understand. They're just happy you're playing the game; so long as your opponents recognize the model, use whatever brings you joy That said, the Ordinance Witch is my favorite model. She's a funny lady, and I like her enthusiasm!
Gw is gw they are only getting worse with time. Either you want to deal with GW being GW or you do like many of us have done and simply walk away. Vote with your hobby dollar. I still have armies (40k orks, aos goblins and of course demons) on my shelf but not a GW bit or kit to be found. They are sourced from other places, looted from other kits or just 3d printed. We still play OPR grimdark future. But for us, 40k was always the beer and pretzel game. So not having official gw stuff doesn't change our enjoyment of the hobby. Besides this way we can get the grimdark back. Ignoring GW's 40k sanitation of grimdark.
sadly GW has gone away from pleasing fans to just making the fomo dopermine hits and it sucks. Change will occur but very slowly and only if their profits fall will they change. the endless march of weekly releases, every year new edition. just something to try and suck more money out of unsuspecting people who just want to start a new hobby.
@@Wargamerofalltrades from all the rumours its already started lots of stuff no longer selling out and the limit edition stuff that they have at huge inflated costs have not be selling. From the sounds of it the covid high they had is now gone and they have less and less people paying into the hobby
Ah, I thought you were meaning GW as an entity deserves to be supported. Still I do think the legacy armies deserve support, mainly due to the amount of hobby time people have put into the armies in most cases.
"GW can get away with anything" sums it up perfectly. You can see some discontent with the rise of OPR but just look how people came running back to them for The Old World as if they wouldn't can that again in an instant.
they could but it wouldn't change any thing. Dude, they killed my game back in 2014, i kept playing 8th edition for 10 years. If they were stupid enough to can Old world the fans wouldsimply hijack the the game as we did with fantasy battles and do our own thing. As it is, most of us are just trying to get those old modelswe either missed out on or value more as they were our childhood. the Rule set needs fixing up but isn't terrible.
To be honest, it is nice to have a supported game system to some degree, but make no mistake, we don't trust them for a minute.
I suspect that there's a lot of those customers who didn't come back... they just picked up the old models they loved that they couldn't get any more. I don't know for sure that people are really looking to play that game any more.
OPR is not a good substitute: it's too simple, too shallow, and too abstract to give the depth or "vibes" that Old World and Fantasy give.
There is also this fallacy that people think "Well if I get a GW army I can come to any store in the world and play it" while smaller games might not get played or the company might close. A lot of smaller games die. But GW might just delete your whole army or game system, and they quite regularly do it so the risk isn't actually any smaller.
Yeah, A lot of people in my Bolt Action Club have said the main reason they played 40k for so long was because it was a universal game of sorts
Don't be a fan: be a customer. Being a fan enables them to get away with treating you like crap. (TBF, it sounds like you're stopping being a fan, and just being a customer, even if you don't change the labels, but I'm sure you get my point)
I do! But I appreciate the comment, it's nice having a variety of opinions for me to look at
Finally, someone calling out all the GW terrible choices! This is just the latest in a long line of garbage. I'd love to see your take on Trench Crusade by the way.
Trench Crusade is a shade of grey for me, I will try it once the Kickstarter is all done
I was a beasts player who was exicted to take my army into the new edition, then had my heart broken when I learned my bovine boys were no longer going to be supported despite being a HUGE part of the world(s) they exist in.
I know! It's the one decision I don't understand, and while I enjoy Old World if anyone told me "Just go play Old World" I'd be so mad. It's two completely different game systems
Had that happen to my entire game system…give it a decade and they’ll probably give it all back to you but very downsized
I advise you to watch the video "why do people love to hate primaris marines" by Arbiter Ian. Goes into all frustrations you are feeling, but also from the strange expectation the fans expect from a company.
A minor counterpoint. Tabletop War games aren't like video games where you're forced to install the latest patch. You can play a previous version with previous rules if you can get an opponent to agree to it.
But of course the key part is getting someone to agree to older rules. There's a mentality among players of all stripes that we must all agree to play the latest rules.
I agree with that, and plan on making a video specifically about it. But at least locally the vast majority of people move on to the next edition of a game
Heresy players over here patiently waiting 2 years for a melee kit...
I stopped giving GW money directly and it was justified by their terrible business practices and lack of support for a game they ostensibly say is "the third most popular." They can't keep product in stock for most ranges - and just want you to chase FoMo. No thanks GW.
Yep! Heresy has been so mishandled by them
3D print or go to recasters. I say this as someone who played GW since the 90s. At this point it's just self defense.
the previous version of 40k was great, now everything is stuffed into this pattern, I want my rules on the units instead of this formation logic, I've been through a lot of editions it's no fun anymore how they have to reinvent the same thing all the time
40K tenth edition is what started my path of realizing GW isn't the best with the rules they make
these coupled with the ludicrous price hike, is what turned me onto 3d printing.
I agree, the price hikes at least have some reason behind them (I've read the shareholder reports out of curiosity) but it still hurts
Where'd you read about MESBG making you settlement eras? I hadn't seen that anywhere.
In the most recent Articles on Warcom
Rather strange 40k is not on the list, when arguably it's in the worst possible state game and quality wise.
I went from a 40k main, to an AoS main, to a MESBG main.
And I adore MESBG! I wanna play the other games but I can hardly find the reason to do so - none of them feel like "strategy" games anymore.
I agree it's in a rough spot currently but I don't play it or keep up with it enough to share my feelings without more research.
All valid points, but especially for the AoS ones, for your KT frustrations i can only symphatize with some. compendium was used by GW as a jump in point for you to get into the bespoke teams, so if after 3 years of an edition and you still not have a bespoke KT I think that game is not for you (Although yes I have to admit it's stupid that some of them 40k faction still haven't got a bespoke KT). and in my city I can comfortably find at least 2 games per week for KT, so although putting a timer on models is never good, I can tolerate it (to a degree) more than most people out there.
The if you don't have a beskope kill team this isn't for you is a very weird way to rationalize a bad decision that's hurts the customer
@Wargamerofalltrades i know being an esl isn’t an excuse, but i know should’ve worded it differently. I guess it’s more like “if you really like the game you would’ve found a bespoke team that resonates with your play style”? (Of course if you’re looking for your faction representation in KT that’s a different thing altogether and i agree that they did a bad job on that)
That makes a lot more sense thanks, and I still have my fingers crossed for Custodes representation, but I'm probably stuck playing the older edition for now
mantic deadzone,kings of war. modiphious fallout wasteland warfare. and the new ks trench crusade. I have plenty to keep me going without gw take a look you might like some of em
My channel is going to be focused on smaller games for a bit, I'm sure these all will be covered!
I might be getting old, but I have seen this as something of a trend in most entertainment industries; The production quality of the product goes up, but in the pursuit of profits (or through simply not caring), the experience quality plummets.
Ever since WHFB got axed in favour of AoS (which at the time, outright mocked the fanbase with some of the rules, btw) my loyalty to GW has been wavering at best.
It sucks, but apparently that is how it is.
I get it, I just recently came into the hobby so I didn't have that experience, guess not much has changed
I remember when they went "We're still working on the rules. Here are the basics. Also no points yet, just treat wounds as points. Yes, goblins and chaos warriors cost the same. No, we don't care."
@@Lorgar64
I remember a rule for imperial great cannon (I think it was) that got a reroll if the player twirled an imaginated moustache
@Drubnubjagr Rules like that were fun. A great rule for battlefleet gothic was "If the model's unpainted, it's fresh out the shipyard so the crew has the lowest leadership they can roll."
As long as people only play GW games and don't buy in into other games they won't see it as a problem. They need to protect the company due the amount of money they spent on their products.
I LOVED the explanation GW gave to the AoS/40k sunsetting: "it ain't like we can give rules to ALL models we make" .
They are not even trying...
But seriously, thank you for having a "King's new clothes" moments . Whenever I watch any warhammer-related channel, they all just brush it away as "silly GW antics" or sum, but at least now SOMEONE admitted how rotten all of this is ..
This used to be more common but GW got it's shit together about the internet and is hugely flexing their muscles with free preview boxes etc. for content creators. It made them all fall in line 'cause they're too small to afford not to and it costs them almost nothing.
@senti5468 and that's really sad. I wondered what was the price for someone's loyalty in money, but I thought we were all better than being complacent in... army toys?
Im rn hosting a Old World crusade via discord and TTS, im having to make new rules for pretty much everything and it sucks.
Hey GW could you not destroy good things just by being yourself.
For the lotr range, lots of it is metal. And I did not see the sales figures, but I would not be surprised if it was less then a handfull of models sold per year. I understand that range got axed as much as it did.
I kind of understand, but the models they chose to axe weren't all metal either, and it did delete entire factions as well
Beasts of chaos have always been my favorite faction in fantasy and AOS. It’s the faction I’ve always wanted to collect. Now I have to use alternatives like frostgrave minis since the majority are not in stock
start with understanding how many people you need in your group in order to enjoy your game? In my case its perfectly fine if I have 3 or 4 opponents in total for most of my games. I have someone I play Saga with, someone I play Lasalle 2 with, someone I play Fallout Wasteland Warfare with etc. You are not and should not be the hostage of a company based on "the option to find lots of people who play that game". that is a bad take. first of all you don't usually want to play with random people. but with people who you know and enjoy the game with. even if that person is just... one. free time is a commodity we don't really have as adults. count yourself lucky if you play once per week and try to make that game a memorable and fun game instead of chasing the popular game and the fact that is played by the majority. most good games are niche games and hard to find opponents for. but try to find one other person who enjoys Silver Bayonet and craft together a good scenario you will play once per month. and you will be happier for it.
This is very much how I wargame right now! I just hear the logic of it's the only game I can find that people play so often
Hate GW at this point, but I keep my armies because as you said you can always get a 40k no matter where you go. I’ll only keep the bare minimum, the rest of my focus goes to OPR, Battletech, and all the other great games that aren’t so disrespectful.
Sad Gervasio make me sad.
:(
Oh, also, you forget to tell about the fact that, after the vespidXscion starter gw made a new one with space marine vs death guard featuring ALL NEW FREAKING MODEL.
LoL
I thought it was a reprint of the heros line?
@@Wargamerofalltrades some places (like Europe) never got the Heroes line, so they are essentially a new thing here
Well, if some miniatures game has stable rules and a stable range and stable gameplay, it's *not* in a sustainable good place - quite the opposite, such a game is unsustainable and dying, because it doesn't really sell new boxes; and it simply has to either change or be discontinued. A game system is sustainable long-term if and only if it will sustain new sales of new kits to the same long-term audience.
That discounts a lot of successful historical or miniature agnostic wargame companies, but I do agree that is GW's MO
Have you heard of Quars War?
I have, and plan to play it
You should jump ship and join the trench crusade bandwagon with the rest of us. The Kickstarter is up and running strong.
Trench Crusade as an entity is a bit iffy to me, I don't have the greatest love for how the models look but the lore is pretty good. I'm gonna wait and see how the kickstarter goes and then join the bandwagon if in person models look better.
@@Wargamerofalltrades it's model-agonistic, so far as I understand. They're just happy you're playing the game; so long as your opponents recognize the model, use whatever brings you joy
That said, the Ordinance Witch is my favorite model. She's a funny lady, and I like her enthusiasm!
GW sucks. Just walk away.
The battered wife syndrome people have with this company makes no sense to normal people.
Gw is gw they are only getting worse with time. Either you want to deal with GW being GW or you do like many of us have done and simply walk away. Vote with your hobby dollar.
I still have armies (40k orks, aos goblins and of course demons) on my shelf but not a GW bit or kit to be found. They are sourced from other places, looted from other kits or just 3d printed.
We still play OPR grimdark future. But for us, 40k was always the beer and pretzel game. So not having official gw stuff doesn't change our enjoyment of the hobby. Besides this way we can get the grimdark back. Ignoring GW's 40k sanitation of grimdark.
Look at it like this and it'll make more sense:
GW is a model company that has a game attached to it. GW is not a game company that sells models.
sadly GW has gone away from pleasing fans to just making the fomo dopermine hits and it sucks. Change will occur but very slowly and only if their profits fall will they change.
the endless march of weekly releases, every year new edition. just something to try and suck more money out of unsuspecting people who just want to start a new hobby.
I am hoping that change starts sooner rather then later, another few years of this and they could crash pretty hard
@@Wargamerofalltrades from all the rumours its already started lots of stuff no longer selling out and the limit edition stuff that they have at huge inflated costs have not be selling.
From the sounds of it the covid high they had is now gone and they have less and less people paying into the hobby
They *deserve* to be supported? It doesn't have to make sense to you.
I am curious, in your opinion why do they deserve to be supported?
@@Wargamerofalltrades I don't think all the legacy armies do deserve to be supported from a rules perspective. It was your quote.
Ah, I thought you were meaning GW as an entity deserves to be supported. Still I do think the legacy armies deserve support, mainly due to the amount of hobby time people have put into the armies in most cases.