The Problems With Sony Cine Cameras - Please fix
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- a special thanks to Limitless Studios for letting us film
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Please. help us with captioning & translate this video! - Фільми й анімація
I'd love to see open gate and a profile with more dynamic range - whether that be with a slower sensor readout, new picture profile, or higher (sensor) bit depth RAW - whichever they need!
Yeah it’s limited by the ADC bit depth right now. Basically all cameras are running a 12-bit ADC in video mode. There’s very minor differentiation, it’s honestly mostly down to noise reduction, highlight recovery, and codec implementation. We’ve got 12 good stops to work with, a bit extra with some clever processing. It’s time to bump that number for sure.
These are all extremely valid points. But with the FX6 specifically, the pros far outweigh the cons IMHO especially when compared to what competitors are currently offering in that price range. No camera will ever be perfect, as there's the right tool for every job. For me, the FX6 checks a lot of boxes, despite some annoying quirks. Sony has truly come a long way since the FS7 days, and I'm excited to see what they're capable of if they continue to listen to their users.
agreed, its a great bang for buck camera that does a lot right. i just wish it did a little more, as a lot of the changes we are requesting are just firmware.
FX6 is so close to become a perfect camera. Just need to be a bit more flexible on codec, such as 10bit long gop 4k, and audio in port to the body, even if its a 3.5mm.
Shutter angle is actually coming in the upcoming firmware update for the FX3.
yes got anoucned few days after we put out the video haha. but weird we have to wait till September
I always wondered when i edit from fx3 pushing the colors and dynamic range, i wasnt getting it to push as well as a raw footage from the r5c but as you said the raw capabilities makes the footage more malleable to change. Im still new to this and this is a great learning experience for me. Ty
you are very welcome!
I agree with most of what you say, but having gone over fully to Sony after a few years with mainly BM cameras, there are a few things with Sony that drive me crazy: a) you can't use your zebras and waveform to measure your Log image while you shoot with a LUT - you can only do this with an external monitor. For me it's much more important to know how I am really exposing the footage and the LUT is just there to make it look pretty and see more clearly. Sony's approach to exposure, with EI etc just involves a load of unnecessary guesswork and fancy footwork like exposing skin tones 2 stops over and then working out where you might clip, setting your zebras there, etc. BM cameras just show you how the Log image is really exposing on a big screen even though the LUT is on and also has False Colour across their range of cinema cameras. You can also easily toggle your False Colour and LUT on and off with an assigned button, which is not so simple or just unavailable in the Sony line-up. b) The camera set-up overall is ridiculously overcomplicated - I actually have had to take online courses on the Sony line to get the settings I need and I still make mistakes. I notice even experienced Sony operators occasionally get a setting wrong - for example someone recently ruined a few shots on an Fx6 because they had accidentally turned the shutter off! (why is this even an option??). c) Not enough ND is one thing, but no-one mentions the jump from 0 to 0.6 ND when you turn it on. This is annoying because a lot of the time I film outdoors (in the UK, with overcast weather etc) and I just need 1 stop or less of ND, but can't get it, so I have to juggle my settings - add to that the difficulty in knowing your real exposure with a LUT when filming in Log and it's a pain in the arse. I know this is a limitation of internal variable ND but I would love the ND to graduate up from 0 - unless someone can tell me I don't know how to use the camera properly, which is definitely a possibility... Overall these cameras have great dynamic range, really decent colours and excellent autofocus, but I feel Sony need to wipe the slate clean and simplify their approach to camera settings and exposure - they'll never do it, but here's hoping!
great analysis honeslty, its interesting to hear prespestives from other parts of the world, I ended up getting magentictic filter rings and I just hot swap a 1,2,3 stop ND between lenses when needed.
@@TheFilmGuyOfficial Do you have a link to those filter rings? or just their full name? It's ok, I found them online - nice tip!
@@retlwiz there are many options, but I use the freewell ones
I agree with everything EXCEPT the size. I love more compact cameras specially as teams get smaller and smaller and more capable. Obviously if we’re on a bigger set, we most likely have budget for larger (capable) cameras. But yes I agree that if size is required to give us more features that we need than that’s a no brainer!
For sure Man, they certainly have their place but I think the fact we don’t have a 2.8, 24 70 with Is for Sony is a joke.
It’s not about getting rid of the smaller ones is about giving people options .
@cammackey I completely agree with you about size. It’s considerably easier to grab my little Fuji XE-4(when paired w/OSS lens actually shoots more stabilized handheld video than my A7IV)for a quick trip requiring air travel. But my A7IV is obviously FF and far more capable w/AF & low light and I’m super glad it’s still somewhat portable
I agree with you about the body size, but I think Sony can afford to bring out Cine E mount lenses that are bigger but are faster, be parfocal and also have a linear focus ring. Personally, I love my FX30, I’m not an actual cine videographer, but I love how I can rig it out for different needs. If it were bigger, that would be an issue.
I agree, I do like something inbetween like an Alexa and FX6 size for the type of work I do but I feel that options are the name of the game. I don't think anyone wants fewer small cameras / lenses, just the option for one or two slightly larger ones with more features as well.
Thank you. We own Arri, Panasonic, Canon and BMD in our shop, but I've always admired the Sony cams from afar. However I couldn't help but feel that something wasn't quite right with them, but wrote it off as simply being naive. Your informative video made me aware of many things that will keep me away - for now. Another big one you may have missed is the E-mount itself, which seems to have been born in their consumer line and has never had the durability to support large lenses. And as far as I know, they don't offer any alternate lens mounts on their higher-end cameras. And don't get me started on their lack of an EVF on the FX6. In any case, most of the problems you mentioned are easily fixed. I hope Sony listens.
This is probably why the Venice comes with a native PL mounts with a Hidden E emount inside.
One of the things I cut out of the video was talking about how I think they should replace the e mount!
Anyways, thanks for your comment. Would love to know what you learned/ found most interesting from what we had to say. !
The FX9 has a locking e-mount that's super solid. The Burano will have this as well.
Great summary! Maybe some control over noise reduction in camera?
thanks, the FX6 / 9 let you do it.
Although I agree with most of your observations, the basic premise, though based on the marketing ploy of the sony, i.e. Cine camera... is, well, wrong... first of all, when you look at your criticism of the fx line, a lot wouldn't matter in cinema work... they do have a cinema camera - Venice. These fx cameras are some kind of in betweeen sort nesting among broadcast eng and cinema and as such, actually do a decent job (though lacking some features of one and some of the other).
I certainly agree I think most of them do still lineup with the Venice cameras. The new one still has the same level of ND and doesn’t come with false colour.
It also doesn’t do full frame Opengate !
I agree, they lack the basic features which are colors and ergonomics. Sony thinks cameras should be gadgets and that's why they persistently have the worst image and ergonomics, they don't understand what's the most important in a camera.
Hey Apprecate you comment, not sure i feel as strongly as you do but its all preference.
The colors on the new sensors are incredible, not sure what you’re on about lol
I agree that we need to push Sony to include more cinema features! At least the one's that can be done in software. Even the iPhone 15pro (with BM CameraApp) has Shutter angle, false colours and Bluetooth timecode support. 🤯 You forgot Noise reduction control that I would like to see as well (but RAW would bypass). Anyway, good video!
absolutely
I think you got them all.Spot on.!!
I like this. There's critique and plausible fixes given for the issues. It's made in good faith.
Apprecate you saying so, we tried to be realistic and no pick on them.
Thanks! That’s certainly our goal, we do actually like these cameras - I don’t personally own them like Taylor does but I recommend them above most to people looking to buy.
I agree with most of what you said, BUT I've yet to see a Sony camera with "great rolling shutter performance" and I've owned and used the A7S3, A7IV and FX30. None of these three had good, or even decent rolling shutter performances, at least compared to stacked sensor cameras I also own and used like the XH2S and R3.
You could also add the lack of a CF Express type B slot compared to other brands (Fuji, Canon, Nikon, BM, RED all use CF Express Type B now). Instead of having to buy a more expensive, slower and more prone to overheating PROPRIETARY CF Express Type A card.
ProRes is also THE industry standard codec they seem to want to ignore. Add all that to the lack of 6K, usable DCI 4K, abysmal IBIS, weird menu, and everything you just said. Hoping they'll listen.
That said, if you already own a fairly recent Sony camera, it's still an amazing piece of gear, still gets the job done amazingly. But if you're in the market for a good, versatile, no proprietary BS camera, in 2024, I would personally recommend other brands 98% of the time.
All good points, but interesting to hear that about rolling shutter, I’ve found the fx6 and cameras with that sensor have class leading rolling shutter performance. According to CineD the a7siii with the same sensor and readout speed as the fx3 and fx6 beat the XH2S’ 9.7ms with a readout of 8.7ms.
Spot on!
glad you agree.
Sony please add some kind of mic input on fx6 when top handle is removed.
It’s very sad they didn’t do this, but I feel like we will get it in mk2
Not all heroes wear capes! Thanks!
Nice video, and good points. Personally, I love the shutter angle feature on the Panasonic line. Saved me a ton of frustration. I have been looking at the getting the FX6 although I don't work in film or production at all - just like it. Watching the video, I can't help wonder if Sony would have as much success if they called it 'the corporate production line' instead of the cine line. Look at your 'Superman' T-shirt for intsance, would you have bought a T-shirt with 'State Farm Insurance' or 'Burton's Biscuits' on the front?
agreed, cine had become a marketing term, if they called it a production camera it would have been fine.
"These are not cinema cameras!"
Gareth Edwards: "Hold my beer..."
it was impressive but they also havd 70 million to make up for its limitations.
Indeed, people have shot cinema on iPhones! We live in an amazing time, but it’s always good to keep one eye on the future and imagine the possibilities imo!
@@TheFilmGuyOfficial No doubt! I like how everyone talks about it but thinks they can get the same results with consumer cinema lenses and a SmallRig tripod!
@@ShaneVanLitz Like Apples iP15 release video - sure shot on iPhone but with half a million dollars of support systems!
@@onocoffee Yes! It's made me want to shoot a short on a phone just for fun!
I'd like easier options to auto shoot in sLog3 on the FX3/30 - an option to lock in the base iso, frame rate, shutter angle and the camera just adjusts the aperture - of course built in NDs this would be fantastic! Need built in NDs in the bottom of the line!
Nice!
Good job just heard we're getting a update on the fx6
Yes I had to look at the update sadly it’s disappointing it’s just an update so it works with the Sony phone app and 1.5 X anamorphic de squeeze!
They're gonna try to sell us the solution with a new product. @@TheFilmGuyOfficial
You mentioned everything! Now we need SONY to hear us all.
share the video and tag them!
All great points. wish Sony would try harder and not do the minimum because they are the top seller.
Agreed!
Great points across the board. As a Sony shooter since 2013, I can fully attest to everything mentioned. Great videos and keep ‘‘em coming, instant subscribe.
Thank you very much and we are glad to have you!
love this channel. There is so much horse hockey pushed out by Camera influencers that just want a paycheck so there is lots of misinformation out there.
Ha ha, I can’t say I have heard the term horse hockey before but that’s brilliant!
And thank you we do try to be honest and give real opinions as best we can. It can be to our detriment sometimes as brands. Don’t like to work with us again if we give them too negative feedback but at the end of the day we would hate for someone to buy a product to recommend , and then they find out that we didn’t tell them about something or weren’t honest about something and they waste their money.
I’d add one that applies to most if not all of the cameras “punching up,” and that is the sensor architecture. The ALEV sensor has been around forever, yet almost everyone else is still using basic 12-bit ADCs, limiting dynamic range and highlight/shadow quality.
Higher bit depth readout is pretty high on the list for what I’d like to see for next gen video cameras. I do wonder if we’ll get it or if the industry will start jumping to new tech like organic sensors instead.
@@ShaneVanLitz depressing take: they’re asleep at the wheel and will try to convince everyone that we need 8K. When you can no joke pick up an Alexa Classic for $4K, there’s low motivation to buy something new any time soon.
@@ForestCinema I don’t think it’s the priority. Many people actually believe Sony really have the 15+ stops of dynamic range they claim. It’s such a pity that resolution has become so important, I still feel that 6k is perfect.
As the Sirui Anamorphic has become very popular with Sony cameras, I Hope Sony would develop a new Open gate firmware update for A7s3, fx3, and fx30
We hope that as well! But if Alfieri is correct about the creator movie, we only got it because Hollywood asked for specific features which means it’s unlikely we will get any more
New Sony Burano camera does not provide open gate because, as they say, it's not possible along IBIS, so I wouldn't expect that.
@@malz they could just disable IBIS while using opnegate
also Panasonic can do opengate with ibis
1.3x and 2x used to be the most popular options for anamorphic lenses. Quite a few people where rather sceptical when P+S Technik announced their first anamorphic Zoom with 1.5x squeeze.
Since the creator was captured externally to Atomos Ninjas for ProRes Raw, I would assume, they just used the Desqueeze the Ninjas provided.
a lot of these are probably easily integrated however i guess it's what seperates 'pro' features. the one issue i have is the actual monitoring layout. please, please, all i want is an update where the image is clean with info around the picture.
for sure, but some of these things are issues on their pro cameras, I just think they shouldn't put them in the cine line if they aren't pro.
Good points
thank you!
Re: Audio top handle. I wish they had a version on a remote cable without the handle, or better on-body 4 channel options. I'd even accept a pair of 3.5 on the FX3.
That’s an interesting one, but yeah I agree! Would be nice to have a bit more options in this department
I didn't know y it's very hard for sony to make it own 5.5inch or 7 inch controller monitors
nor did we!
You can't call it a cinema camera an then put an annoying warning that removes the battery remaining indicator when you use external V-Lock or Gold mounts for it. Pretty sure they did just that to annoy everyone not using their brand batteries. I want to be able to power camera, monitor and FF motor with a single V-Lock without being annoyed by it. I know V-Locks have remaining juice indicator but this move from Sony is clearly not for a Cinema Camera that should be able to display voltage!
That’s a good point
*I love my FX30 and I know it's an entry level Cinema Camera but I'm not lookin for the same as those who shoot on FX6 or FX9 I just love the fact that it's more Video focused but I think also they could make improvements on high end Models but not so much on entry level Camera as if you want that you should buy the higher specs*
For sure, but the thing to keep in mind is a lot of the things we are asking for a purely firmware or it came down to making Camera slightly bigger so it has better heat dispersal.
We also don’t feel like calling them cinema cameras at all is appropriate given these limitations . They are corporate documentary production, cameras.
Yeah I Notice that about Sony Cameras when it comes to Firmware updates how they usually dismiss it & just make a more exspensive camera with said stuff YOU wanted but now have to pay more lmao @@TheFilmGuyOfficial
I just commented on a video about this, they announced and update coming to the fx cameras. But the fx3/fx30 aren’t getting false color. What’s the freaking point.
The Sony buerano doesn’t even have false colour haha! We certainly aren’t getting it! For fx6-30
@@TheFilmGuyOfficial You 100% have a point lol.
Buy a monitor with false color, problem solved.
@@kerwinbrackbill we shouldn’t have to do that though, that’s the problem!
Great points regarding the Sony FX series. Thank you. Regarding Sony displays: Sony has very limited in-house display innovation. Unless something has changed, Sony was obtaining LCD glass from Samsung and OLED glass from LG. Sony's LCD viewfinders aren't very good. Nor are their on-camera touchscreens (compared with other brands).
That’s an interesting point! I still don’t think that stops them from starting to make their own monitors with touchscreens.
If it’s colour, accurate, I would much rather use a Sony touchscreen monitor on my camera than a small HD .
I agree with everything except the ND. Yes, I wish they were stronger, but I'd rather have the stepless eND of the FX than more stops but in steps like most cameras. I can always put more ND in front if need be, but it's hard to mimic the stepless ND if you need/want it. It's so nice to be able to change ND mid shot.
would be cool, but so far the technoligy for that isn't around is it?
Obviously it’s hard to say exactly how something like this might be implemented, but when I was saying it I imagined keeping the eND with a solid in addition to stack with the eND for the extra stops.
I always called all these devices "production cameras" not "cinema camera". I use this term only for TRUE cinecams like Varicam, Arri, Venice and so on.. I wish more people would adopt that.
That’s a very good term! To be honest honest, we struggle to Call, the Venice a cinema Camera! The main reason he gets used in Hollywood is because of the lowlight that’s about it.
I generally have been calling them corporate, documentary cameras. Production works as well.
I just want a updated camcorder
Great video! I agree, sony need more power!
Yes they do
Preaching the good word!! Hope Sony listens. Unfortunately, they probably won't until they get some actual competition from the other brands.
Sadly, I think you are correct!
Looks like they just yesterday announced a firmware update that will add shutter angle and false color for the FX3, FX30, and FX6. Of course that update won't be available for months... but interesting timing on that announcement
The term cinema camera is used too much by camera manufacturers now.
Most cameras with the title are just video cameras. It's a cinema camera if it is dual operator like a Venice. Or it's a broadcast camera like the FX9 and FS7 (because they have specific broadcast formats) most other new "cinema cameras" are just video cameras.
agreed, I think we need to push back on these companies if they are using these terms.
need that canon video next
Next will be Canon or Blackmagic!
Totally agree. Panasonic S5IIX got more "cinema" features than FX6 ....
If you haven’t already, I encourage you to go watch our the problem with Panasonic cameras video!
I have heard that there will be a firmware update for the FX3 in September 2024 which should give us shutter angle and more anamorphic desqueeze options.
Yes, so we are getting shutter angle which is great and 1.5x
I know Sony, how about let us set custom white balance when using our memory modes???
Ooh that’s a good one! I can understand the desire to lock them into a certain place, but surely all that needs to be is a toggle in the settings menu.
Sony codecs work great in 90% of scenarios until they don’t. Whenever I shoot for chroma keying I regret not having oversampled Raw.
agreed
Cinema Jesus?
Very informative!
il let shane know you think he looks like that haha.
Wasn’t The Creator shot using an FX3? If it’s good enough for Greg Frasier…I think it’s good enough for anyone.
I don’t think you watched the full video because we talk about the creator!
but also, any Camera will be fine when you have an $80 million budget !
They are great cameras that could be even better. They did also rig the FX3 out with a load of tech to supercharge it, which a lot of people forget to mention.
I think the RAW option will be available in the next Sony bodies ever since Nikon successfully beat RED in court. I think all camera manufacturers will offer in body RAW just their version of it like what zcam, black magic, and Nikon are doing.
Brilliant
Glad you enjoyed
I wish Sony would give me the option to turn off distortion compensation when using wide-angle lenses. It would be so easy! But no, Sony wants to chose for you, you don't have a say in that matter (at least for the Sony lenses that I have). And don't get too excited when you notice that ARW files aren't distortion compensated. Sony's Imaging Edge app will add the compensation, wether you like it or not.
I am waiting for open gate + global shutter IDK why
ehh, global shutter usually means less Dynamic range, so im so keen on that myself
Even film has a rolling shutter, but faster is nice!
Give us better power options that are made by Sony. As someone that works for a service center that repairs Sony cameras we get a lot of cameras in that have been blown up by subpar power supplies.
i think these companies already know and aware about this "almost cinema camera" conundrum, and i think the reason they're (still) doing this is because they want a sizable feature gap between their top level cinema camera lines and the entry level ones that caters to a wider audience (starter filmmakers, indie, entry level corporate, high end youtube production). this is so they don't cannibalize the sales of a more expensive product, which are already narrowly niched.
the issue is, some of these features are missing from the Sony BURANO, and if you put the fx3 next to the venice image they look very simular. it just shows their top end cameras are very overpriced.
You nailed it. Open gate please. Raw would be nice. More firmware updates. Microphone jack come on I shouldn't have to say that one.
Despite too many bodies in my opinion too many releases too quickly when they probably could have come out with features earlier in less bodies. And all the short Cummings listed above and in the video. I love E Mount lenses. For my work and for my joy outweighing the pros and cons of other camera ecosystems . Sony still wins out. But others are catching up and when I think of buying a new camera. I do debate in my head. Of course I've invested heavily in Sony. So it's easier said than done but still. Being into cameras you're always going to look over the fence to see if the grass is greener but I think Sony is in a position where adding a few more features and giving better long-term support would make it so any consideration for another would be short-lived .
All very good points here!
I think in general, it’s very easy for them to think they are in a undefeatable position . But all that would take would be for a third party to make a kick arse sensor and sell it to everyone else for them to start losing some position in the Market.
Like the video. Don't agree with the size comment though. I don't want my camera to be super huge. I like the size of the FX6 and the FX3 is even better. And the RED Raptor packs a lot of power in it's small size, and Sony has WAAAAY more resources to do it better than them, so I don't see why they don't.
The FX6 sis a good size I still think the fx3 could be a little bit bigger
According to Sunny, their big issue is processing power and heat !
They need to put better processes in these cameras and they make them bigger with better fans to get rid of the heat!
Then perhaps we can start seeing some of these features .
Also, in general, I just want a 24 to 70 2.8 with is
they announced shutter angle
yes, September apparently
Sony needs to update their display options to have 3 modes: 1) Camera settings info on screen. 2) camera settings info in black borders, similar to Venice, arri, red, canon...3) Clean with the option for Rec. tally or no tally.
When Sony came out with a phone that had HDMI input for a camera, I immediately thought Sony needs to just make a monitor. That way Sony camera users could have touch functionality and a great display to replace the poor displays the cameras come with.
We just find it weird they haven’t done it!
A lot of what they do seems to be minimal effort in terms of putting out a product and then they let third parties. Try to fix all their little problems.
@@TheFilmGuyOfficial It's Sony intention to keep third parties happy.
Ibis in fx6
mk2 probably
Shutter angle is on its way to the fx3/30 cameras…
The shutter angle thing is really overblown. You have to adjust your r exposure anyway and often you want to use more than 180 at higher frame rates anyway. Actually sticking blindly to 180 is just silly.
I definitely agree that it’s overblown, but it’s also something where it’s a very useful feature. Shutter speed is very easy to go wrong if you’re not paying attention!
Over my career, I have accidentally had a lower shutter speed that required. Probably a couple dozen times for little bits and pieces when I’m running around shooting a bunch of stuff.
It happens by accident and you don’t realise till you realise, and then sometimes those clips aren’t usable.
If they can’t do shutter angle. Then they should at least give us the option to double the shutter speed when we change frame rate.
"Cinema camera" without open gate and raw recording capabilities is not a real cinema camera lol.
I love taller aspect ratio, not because the socmed (I passionately HATE videos with portrait orientation), but the 3:2 and 4:3 is easier to compose because I want my videos to look like a still photograph (with moving images ofc). Without open gate capabilities, I have to crop the cropped 16:9 videos to 3:2/4:3.
Look at "Godland", "The Eight Mountain", "The Lighthouse"; these recent movies use the taller aspect ratio perfectly.
About raw recording.. I use a Canon EOS M with Magic Lantern installed and I would never go back to non-raw recording. The ultra wide flexibility of RAW images is awesome. The limit is just my rookie skill at colorgrading lol.
Even just the ability to have false colour is such a basic cinema feature! Even their brand-new 8k $20,000 cinema Camera doesn’t have it.
Yes, unlike the open gate and raw recording, I think false color was easier to implemented, even to recent cameras with a firmware update. But you know.. It's a Sony 😂😂😂
i think the camera dosnt have the processing power to overlay a FC lut over the lut already on camera. i could be wrong but this is likey why we also don't have opengate @@indradinho88
12bit raw for sure would elevate these cameras ..and it is totally doable
absolutely
You can get 12bit raw out of these cameras though.
it misses the waveform! even the Gh5 has it ;p
Same!
Well, 100% agreed(: Sony PLEASE
Glad you like it!
32 bit float sound recording ...
I cannot WAIT for a camera to include this.
I have been wanting this for ages, I wonder if there is a patient in place that is stopping Camera companies from doing this!
As a Canon shooter of over 25 years, I approve this message.🤓
You would not like our Canon video then 😆 stay tuned!
Well what do you know... some of these just happened
Hopefully more to follow!
Unfortunately, they didn’t, though! We got 1.5 X not 1.6
The false colour thing they mentioned is the Sony phone app which we talk about in the video it’s not coming to the cameras
I have seen old cinema cameras that look way better than the fx3. Fx3 looks like a mirrorless doing video.
I think the Sony punches above its weight pretty well! But yes, there are some old cine cameras which have produced some very lovely images
Sony, please do a S35 4K mode in FX6. Right now the only S35 option is 1080.
I don’t think the sensor has enough pixels?
@@ShaneVanLitz maybe MKII 😉
Internal raw is unfortunately RED's fault, until they lower the licensing fee they charge camera companies to use it (or the patent expires), we won't see affordable cameras with internal raw. Though I wish companies would try to do what blackmagic is doing, I'd rather have SOME form of internal raw (even if it's compressed/compromised the way blackmagic's is) than just 10bit.
I agree, it would be good to see them do what Blackmagic has done neon tried and they still got sued.
But they could also do what they used to do with the FS7 /5
Make an external unit that you can attach to the Camera that records raw .
Not HDMI, raw full proper raw .
the biggest thing that needs to die is 8 bit codecs (fx3), overheating and overall slow support. I "upgraded" to the Sony a1 and while it is feature wise almost exactly what i want as a b-cam ( good for Photo and Video) There are things on it that make this camera the worst purchase i ever made. 4k60 crop, no 8 output over hdmi, 8 k only as long god, it overheats when i use usb power, the battergrip does neither have support for dummy batteries nor ac power, hss flashes do not work properly anymore. So i wanted a camera i can use as a decent b-cam and for photo work ... what i got was a kamera that does nothing really that i need and the reviews online were amazing ... and the picture quality alone is perfect... and xavc performance ... why not finally prores internally
For sure, I have heard some of these things are an issue hopefully with firmware they can at least fix the overheating! I assume you have played with the overheating settings in Camera?
Well after #TheCreator I don’t think there’s limits only if people put them there !
There are always things anyone could improve - They're still great cameras, don't get us wrong!
Sony Venice is the perfect camera for your needs
Sure, do you want to give me the money for it? 😆 also at the Price point is that I would expect more dynamic range the fact that I can put it next to my fx3 and they look almost like the same image is disappointing.
@@TheFilmGuyOfficial Yes, the dynamic range of the fx3 and Venice are very similar. And if Sony adds all the professional features from Venice to the fx3 body, how will they sell Venice? 😂 everyone will want to have a cinema camera with open gate, raw, falce colour in such a compact body and price and no one will overpay 20 times for Venice
@@danielutsik yes! so they should improve the Venice or lower its price because it doesn't make sense to be that expensive.
@@TheFilmGuyOfficial No chance. This camera is in huge demand. Venice is so sought after by cinematographers.
I like videos like that, even if am a sony shooter and weirdly am more productive with sony bodies 😅 if you criticize something, how will it improve? Also forget open gate in the current bodies, it will never happen due to the xavc encoding chipset 😢
same here man, as Shane said i shoot mostly sony,
can you please explain more about the xavc encoding chipset limitation?
That’s actually an interesting point. I’d assume there’s a resolution or aspect ratio limitation in the codec which is why they made a big deal about the 8k in the Burano.
Wait - which Panasonic cameras are true cine cameras?
None at the moment, we’ve done a video for them as well. To be clear, these are still great cameras, they could just be even better 😊
Everyone who shot a real cine camera once can tell the difference in an instant just by the look of the footage, because it is on a totally different level! Just saw another video from a guy who claimed that with the new firmware update of the FX3 and FX30 would make them actual cine cameras because of the now enabled anamorphic squeeze. But just film with an old FS700r from 10 years ago and see that these ACTUAL cine cameras are a whole different ball game and modern "prosumer cameras" and even the most top notch prosumer cameras like the FX3 or A7sIII are just barely better in features like auto focus and have the most modern LOG profiles, but it is frightening how close the FS700 gets in these terms and how much better and high quality the image looks. It just displays that UA-camrs are not "professionals" in the way they would like to be.
Respectfully, I own a Red, and we also use a c500 and we both have access to a Arri LF / 35
It’s not about being UA-camrs it’s about getting basics out of a camera that they should have!
Also the Sony V looks very similar to the fx3
Not really, the image quality especially if you shoot prores raw with external recorder is cinema level. Dont forget that The Creator was shot mostly on FX3. Maybe the noise reduction when internal recording is too much on FX6 and a3s3, but external raw recording can solve that issue.
@@qiyuxuan9437 Gosh... kiddo, look. You have no clue and haven't shot an actual cine camera yet. You answer made that blatantly obvious. Just hooking a camera up to a recorder that does ProRes RAW doesn't make it a cine camera. A 10 year old 4K camcorder hooked up to an Atomos Shogun and extracting 10bit 4K ProRes RAW (which is indeed possible) desn't make the image look like production grade cameras from ARRI, RED, BlackMagic or even Sony. And it also doesn't make the FX3 or A7SIII cine cameras. Why? Because the internal sensor and its unique image style and processing, color science and optical depth it produces is not determined by how you save it to a data medium. You just film with more bit-depth, that's it. The Creator is a marketing thing, just like Searching from 2018 was as promo for the A7sII. The Creator is also mostly CGI and if it was shot exclusively with an FX3 as advertised is heavily debated, because of the IMAX-controversy and the featurette that showed different camera models as well. The result also doesn't look like other productions and you can see that it is not on the same level as other motion pictures in terms of skin tones and plasticity.
There is a reason why real produciton level gear is kept behind a paywall and often can't be purchased but only rented. Same goes for lenses.
@@FlipDeRiviera LOOOOOOL! OFC you can tell a difference! That is what shows you haven't even touched a Venice before! It's totally different sensors and processing that result in a very distinct look for each of them! X-OCN 16-Bit MXF... So? You're trying to make an argument for the similarity by pointing out a significant difference? Your CGI pseudo-counter argument is also lacking in substance. So you're trying to say that an artificially produced image does not influence a camera's image signifficantly by overwriting large portions of the frame and merging the original image style with what a camera actually produces?
You are gate keepers of ignorance, blaming me for alleged missinformation but you're the ones who act as if you had a an actual direct comparison when not even knowing what the distinct footage of each camera looks like and how vastly different they are in quality, because you want to stay in your make believe world to make excuses for yourself to feel better that you can't afford an actual production level camera and that you have to roll with what you have, so you just act as if a Ford Focus was the same as a Ford GT, so you don't have to admid that you're not playing in the first league as the real players do. Go on, stay ignorant. That won't change the fact that the FX3 will NEVER be a full production level camera.
Is your background real or a green screen?
its a virtual reality wall, we will be making content about it soon.
@@TheFilmGuyOfficial oh like a big screen? or something else. Looking forward to seeing it.
yeah its a led wall
@@Sonymoviemasters
1:12 Would Sony even be able to shoot in open gate?
I think the sensor is 16:9, no?
Really depends which Camera you were talking about, but if you were talking about the FX3FX,6 etc It can do open gate. If you switch it into Photo mode, you get an opengate field of view!
@@TheFilmGuyOfficial sure. But open gate for the FX3 in Video and a 3:2 Format would just mean a cropped image no?
Since the sensor is 16:9 open gate means 16:9 if i‘m correct.
To get 3:2 we are losing real estate.
Maybe i‘m wrong
@@The_Daliban I think you are incorrect mate. Open gate refers to purely the full sensor read out.
it doesn’t have anything to do with aspect ratio in theory!
If you rewatch the video, I put two boxes over the 3:2 footage on screen one is 16 x 9. One is 9 x 16 !
You would have to crop the 16:9 image to fill out a normal 9:16 frame!
@@TheFilmGuyOfficial yeah that’s what i mean. Open Gate on the FX3 doesn’t give you 3:2, it gives you 16:9 since the Sensor‘s size is 16:9.
For the Venice shot open gate you‘d get 3:2 since that’s the sensor‘s aspect ratio.
That was what i feared. So the FX3 with its current sensor will never be able to give you a full sensor readout with an aspect ratio of 3:2.
Sad
@@The_Dalibanthe fx3 sensor is the same 3:2 sensor as in the a7s, it just only uses the 16:9 portion to record. The whole sensor is included, we’ve checked.
The longer I watch this video, the more I feel Jesus is telling me how crap Sony Cameras are 😂.
I’ll do the next one, then you can have fat Joe Rogan telling you the issues with Blackmagic 😆
@@TheFilmGuyOfficial please do 😂.
@@TheFilmGuyOfficial good video by the way 👍🏽
@@BrionneOlsen Haha thank you
Yup lack of open gate is the reason I’ll have to leave Sony 😢
It’s such a shame
Sort your menus out sony , changing a simple thing is like carrying the one ring to mount doom!!!
Defence I have gotten a lot better but they’re not perfect!
Naw, The fx3 and fx6 are cinema camera. Quality of life features doesn't stop these cameras from shooting movies.
movies have been shot on an iphone, is that a Cinima camera?
@@TheFilmGuyOfficial Yes, and David leitch already proved it. But for the other points. Set your zebra lines correctly and there isn't a single condition that the fx6 can't get you the proper exposure. The E/ND literally lets you dial in exactly how much filter you want. 10bit 4:2:2 is more than enough for a color grade and 12bit prores raw is even better. The Creator proved this point.
@@bluehoudini30 I think we are going to have to disagree with each other here man. appreciate your comment and even the push buck, but we just disagree.
They’re good cameras, doesn’t hurt to want to see even better from them though!
panasonic have it all
They certainly have some great features, but they are missing a lot as well
Funny you should mention that, we’ve done one of these for Panasonic as well!
yes, go checkout our Panasonic one.
False color, shutter angle, and more anamorphic desqueeze options were just announced to come out. As far as RAW goes, I think it just comes down the the compressed RAW patent. Companies dont usually like to say "we cant do something because of a patent from the guys in the booth across from us!" They'll try to eventually justify "you dont need it" when they know damn well they want it in their cameras.
so, there is a little correction here. what was announced was a September firmware 6 we will get 1.5x anamorphic added. and shutter angle, still no false color. that's only coming to the phone app for the fx6
@@TheFilmGuyOfficialahhhh! thanks for the clarification! I swear i thought i saw that false color was coming to the cameras themselves. I just dont understand why they cant accomplsh this and other camera companies can.
@@Kaotix_music they can, they choose not to do it, likey to protect their pro line.
There some things here that make me scratch my head - so a CINEMA CAMERA - is not a CINEMA CAMERA - if it doesn't shoot open gate to open support... social media?? They HAVE to be BIG? False color - OK ...I guess - Shutter angle - COMING in a firmware update (which so could false color - but again - 90% of the time a CINEMA production is going to use a MONITOR - which leads to - the next three things on the list dont even involve the camera - save the maybe the top handle quality - but that is just a nit pick - CINEMA CAMERAS have dedicated XLRs - CHECK....you then complain about the proprietary mics - which this one completely baffles me - again - a CINEMA CAMERA needs the ports - which it has - this mic is not required for use of the camera nor did you have to buy it - Sony made a bad mic - OK - nothing to do with a CINEMA CAMERA - RAW support internally/Internal NDs those are valid CINEMA CAMERA arguments - but - we are talking about a sub $4000 camera. My point here is - a camera is a TOOL - a person makes the shot - sure the tool can make the job easier - but we are already well at that point - I get MOST movies that are spending THOUSANDS on cameras that have these features - probably could have Saved thousands using a Sony mirrorless camera and no one would have known the difference.
Totally agree! I know we phrased things a little dramatically here or there, but they’re still good cameras that we’d love to see some additions to 😊
The title of the video is also the problems with Sony cinema cameras!
I think you are focused too much on the cinema word when the word should be problems.
Also, I’m seeing more and more social media content shot on ARRI’s turned vertical!
And we did say it was good for anamorphic shooting
Well, you probably should have told Gareth Edwards this fact before he filmed "The Creator" entirly on the Sony FX3. He might have not produced a multimillion dollar movie with it.
But now it's to late. The movie just made 104 million at the box office. If Edwards would have used a real cinema camera he might be a billionaire right now.
And no, I'm not a Sony fan. Personally I use Black Magic Cameras.
However, lets talk about the poinbts made.
1. Vertical shooting - no god damn CINEMA camera does that and I'm talking about Arri Alexa 60k$ real industry cinema camera standard!
2. What? If you want a bigger camera buy a bigger camera. This isn't even an argument. What your saying is: I want features that requiere a big body squeezed into a tiny body because there's obviously no reason why some cameras have bigger bodies. In almost every discussion/review I saw about the Black Magic Ursa Mini Pro (the one I use personally) EVERYONE was complaining about the camera being so heavy and big.
Instead of asking for glass with image stabilzer (completely not used in cinema cameras - I don't know of ANY cinema glass that has IS) you might wanna learn to keep your camera stable when handheld. It's possible. I've seen camerawoman Camilla Hjelm Knudsen do it with a bloody Arri Alexa 1 behemoth.
3. They probably haven't put it into the camera because it's in the app. Maybe Sony tried to not make a totally idiotic labyrinth menu again.
4. Sony probably saw no sense in putting a shutter angle menu in digital cameras since the software can control the shutter angle automatically depending on the frame rate used. Sure, for creative purposes manuel control could be nice. But you really don't need manuel shutter angle in digital cameras.
5. Why should they do that when other brands do a very good job with that? This is fan boy whining. Calibrated to what? Touch tracking. What. Are we still talking about cinema cameras? No one controls the camera in a cinema production via the bloody monitor!
6. Sonys top handles are complete shiet, that's for sure, just as their menues are convoluted crap. Fair point.
7. Didn't even knew that. That is rubbish indeed. I'm so glab I don't use Sony cameras.
8. Well, you can get a 16bit Raw image out of the FX3 for example. But not internally. Have to use an external recording device, which is not uncommon in cinema productions.
9. Makes sense. If they have a desueeze they could have given it more thought.
10. Internal NDs are not used in cinema cameras, it's typical camcorder thing. Being a hybrid camera my Ursa Mini Pro has some. Internal NDs also require some space in the body.
Not that I care because I will always avoid Sony for that reason but their menues could be improved -> taking notes from Black Magic Design. Best menue on the market.
he could have filmed on any modern camera when you have an 80 million budget. lighting is more important. it doesn't excuse the fact most of their line is lacking basic features.
also not that this matters but it looks to have lost money.
@@TheFilmGuyOfficial Hard to say if The Creator lost money. At first glance it did not, 80mil budget vs 104mil box office but that's not considering marketing ect.
I do get your point about the cameras but then again I got real tired of people here on UA-cam with their "I want the most powerful super insane crazy ultra cinema camera for 20 bucks" attitude. "It must have everything in a small body but big because two weeks later some says bigger is better due to stability and blah". I can't remember how many times the UA-cam digital film community has changed their minds 180°. And that is from day one of digital stills cameras with film option. You can track that with all the babbling about "cinema look blah blah" talking about 8bit mpeg4 codec recordings. Low budget digital cameras have been followed by a "big shot" desire because most people, including me, have no bloody clue about real cinema production. I once did hold an Arri Alexa in my hand but didn't do any work with it.
I had been an extra in a real cinema film, solely to get a look behind the scenes of production. Very interesting.
If I just go back to my own camera BM Ursa Mini Pro, still think it's the best affordeble camera considering price/value on the market, I remmeber so much nonesense being said. BM gives you an adapter to record on SSD (blocks the SDI out though no external monitor unless you use a splitter) but it only takes 1 SSD. So people complained about the camera that the adapter needed 2 SSD slots because ..... irony ... they always need to record for 8h straight with no brake. Here on UA-cam people always demand magic bananas that can do everything.
I loved the creator and loved that it shot on an fx3. Doesn’t mean the cameras perfect though! 😊
@@ShaneVanLitz But proofs it's good enough if you have the knowledge how to make it work in a multimillion production.
@@corneliusdobeneck4081no one here said it wasn’t good enough to make work 😅
Guess what has almost none of the features you demand? Real cinema cameras.
Haha well, no that’s not true - we use many of them 😂 but with that said, these are still great cameras, we’re just saying where we’d like to see some improvement 😊
@@ShaneVanLitz I'm not talking about video cameras. I'm talking about the cameras that made classic cinema. The Godfather wasn't shot on a Red digital video camera. 😃
@@MartinMunthe cinema has progressed (and regressed) a lot since the 70s. I don’t think cameras are the reason classic movies look good.
@@ShaneVanLitz I agree - but there is nothing inherently "cinema" about a video camera. It makes no sense claiming Sonys cameras are not "cinema" but other videos cameras are. I would suggest there is absolutely no such thing as a cinema camera just to make a point. How many Black Magic users really create for the big screen? I would say very, very few. people use anamorphic lenses for no other reason than "it looks cool". Maybe 0,001% thet uses anamorphic desqueeze in the projector on a huge silver screen. So having an open matte makes absolutely no sense.
@@MartinMuntheit would still be awesome to see more cool features added to cameras, I don’t really see what your view does to change that discussion at all personally. I don’t really think we’re having the same conversation here and that’s ok, we’ll just agree to not be on the same wavelength and move on! Thank you for the comment and have a good one!
they can't put raw on their cameras, RED denied that ability with a patent
they have options, they can make an external unit like what they did with an fs7 / 5 or they can do what black magic / Nikon are doing with processed raw.
Red only have a patent for some types of raw under certain conditions. It does suck sure but there are alternatives.
@@TheFilmGuyOfficialwhy would Sony make one when Atomos already partnered with Sony to give them the 12 bit raw.
@@bluehoudini30 becuase Proresraw via HDMI isnt anywhere as useful as proper raw. it doesn't work with davinchi, it doesn't have the rage or flexibility or real raw, and I think atmos monitors are bad products..
(Also just wanted to add, B-raw via HDMI isn't as good as internal Braw either).
"In a world where most comment is vertical" I thought you were going to discuss why these aren't "cinema" cameras. I don't think you do "cinema" if you produce content for Instagram, TikTok and social media... "We want bigger" is all of this going to be stupid points that miss the purpose of the cameras? If you want bigger, get Sony's bigger cameras. Instead you go buy an FX3 or something, and then complain?
firstly thanks for your comment.
we mentioned opengate is great for anamorphic, that's the cinema point but we also address its other uses.
the Sony BURANO still has most of these problems, no open gate, no FC, no good audio on Soulutionss, etc.
the venice is a bad value proposition, it has the same dynamic range as the fx3 putting side by side their isn't much of a difference in the image.
sony are only in the tv and cinima market because venice has good low light, if arri make a similar camera the Venice will die off.
telling people to go buy a camera that costs too much for what is is and doesn't solve the problems talked about in the video is just a bad argument.
and you skipped all the points about basic cine features the camera is missing.
Was my comment deleted ? just because i have an alternate side/opinion to the cinema camera talk not to mention informed.Comment was not offensive nor calling out any specific youtube channel including this one nor was it against youtube guideline . I was open for debate or at least a discussion but the fact i cant see my comment. Been in the industry for last 20 yrs work with cinema cameras and professionals on a daily basis..and i feel the whole cine camera discussion has gone off rails...anyways i guess agreeing with the mob is the way to go now. most likely this comment will be deleted too
Sorry mate, I'm not sure what your comment was? there are a few comments on this video that disagree with us, we only usually delete comments that are aggressive or bots.
Maybe it got picked up by the spam filter?
Thank you for responding. I wanted to bring nuance and a little perspective to the discussion surrounding affordable cinema cameras and how the focus is more on the feature set rather than image processing, because time and time again film-makers have made amazing looking films with cameras inferior to the sony fx line up. It dilutes the conversation and ends up concentrating on the short comings which should not be the point.
Perception of the people watching your video matters, informed or uninformed if the people are investing more time in counting feature set and deeming which is a cine camera and which is not - rather than learning Image pipeline, a significant strength of these said cameras gets watered down. There are countless video praising and dissing the camera but how many videos talk about the image pipeline (i know thats tedious) but thats where the fx line up shines. Steve Yedlin talks in detail about Image Processing on his website. My 2 cents were how amazing the camera are getting not from a feature set pov but from the image extracted and then running them through robust post workflow and still holding fidelity even rivaling hi-end pro cine cameras.@@TheFilmGuyOfficial
@@frederickbourbon3008 Thanks for the coment and thanks for taking the time to type it twice - not sure why it didn't show up the first time. I think Taylor and myself both agree, knowlage trumps gear and it's always more important to use the tools you have to their full potential. It's not the camera that makes the image, it's the team around it. I'm still using a relatively outdated Panasonic S1H as my main camera, and appreciate that even that is (in some ways) still a better camera than what has been used to make a lot of cinema looking back even 10-20 years or since we've moved to digital - we've come very far very fast. We are hoping to make some videos about how to best use different cameras in the future if time allows, but we are also interested in seeing some cool features added to cameras we use frequently and that's what this video is primerily about. Each video can have it's own topic and I do think that this stuff is important to discuss as well! Ultimately we can (and always try to) put out content that's informative and interesting and often quite different to this video - but past a certain point it is everyones individual responsibility to realise that 'they are the prize' and shouldnt let quiptment (Or lack of it) weigh them down on their filmmaking journey. I don't think it's that interesting or helpful to stop talking about stuff like this just because some people may misguidedly think this type of stuff is the only important stuff.
the 10bit internal is wack
its okay, but you have to nail your white balance
is that a wig?
It is not he just has amazing hair 😆
Holymolly lol wow@@TheFilmGuyOfficial