Cheers Martin. I took a step ladder last time and it didn’t cut it haha. Also had to tend to the weeds on the other side of the wall but as I was racing of to catch the Scot again I forgot to mention the gardening exploits in the video 🤣
The climb to Miles Platting was always a challenge and 46100 with twelve on was working hard with the sanders on, even with a bit of help from the back. That is an iconic location somewhat spoilt by the electric gantries, and I cant believe it was raining in Manchester! How the Manchester skyline has changed since I lived there. I thought he slip at Hyde North was expertly controlled by the driver. Many thanks for braving the weather and posting this wonderful footage.
46100 was being helped by the class 47 up the bank at Miles Platting !!! By probably at least 60% of the power necessary to lift 12 coaches & two locos. (The Class 47 weighs around 128 tons, the equivalent of about 4 to 5 loaded Mk1 coaches) !!! So No, it impossible to figure out how much effort a steam loco exerts when you also have a Diesel loco included in the train. Making a total MOCKERY out of paying for a steam train ride. Not to mention the needless pollution generated by the Diesel, which is actually more dangerous to the environment than the smoke from the steam loco. In addition to which, is the fact that the ticket price has to include the cost of the diesel & the cost of the diesel loco driver. A TOTAL RIP OFF !!!
Now that's what a train should sound like! Great shots, well done and thank you. Something I've always wondered is why so often there's a dominant cylinder. So you get that ONEtwothreefourfivesixONEtwothree etc. Seems to happen on all configurations of cylinders.
It would have sounded much more impressive if the (needless) Class 47 diesel hadn't being doing at least half the work, or better still had not been included in the train !!! With two, three or four cylinder locos you get TWO, THREE OR FOUR puffs per ONE revolution of the driving wheels. With the exception of one of the SR Lord Nelson class locos, which had its cylinders set at 120 degrees. Giving six puffs per revolution, which made it sound like it was going twice as fast than it actually was. Incidentally the original Royal Scots (as built) were based closely on the Lord Nelsons. As the LMS had requested a complete set of drawings from Eastleigh Works, which Maunsell kindly agreed too. The LMS were in a bit of a mechanical pickle at the time. A situation which Sir William Stanier promptly solved when he moved from the GWR to the LMS a few years later.
It wasn't struggling at all ! Indeed it was climbing the gradient faster than it would have done in steam days, thanks to that 2,500 hp (128 ton) Class 47 on the rear. Which is quiet clearly providing much of the power, as heard by its engine roar as it passes the camera. Further it's also clearly chucking out lots of Diesel pollution from the roof mounted exhaust. Diesels such as the Class 47, when not actually powering, the engine returns to "tick over" and is much quieter, and exhaust smoke is virtually invisible.
@@railwaymechanicalengineer4587 It would be nice for the steam enthusiasts if they get get a steam banker, but that's probably difficult and expensive. And presumably the diesel is supplying the electric power to the train too? I'm more of a diesel fan (just down to my age) but the sight we had a few years back of a steam loco-hauled train with two Pannier tanks banking it up the Lickey - that was quite something.
Beats me why so many present day "steam" specials have got a diesel bunged on the back, and so many times (again in recent years) I've seen steam loco's slipping. Why don't they use the sanding gear? Almost every steam loco in the country was designed and built with sanding gear, and (correct me if I'm wrong) but it seems as if present day loco crews/operators have an aversion to sanding, but using the sanding gear would reduce slipping, so allowing better timekeeping, more economical running (due to a steadier blast and a steadier burn rate, and a reduction of stress upon the driving gear (rods, wheels, axles, and frames). Wash sand and sharp sand is commonly available at virtually all builders merchant's, so is easy to procure (and fairly cheap), and drying the amounts needed is not difficult either.
@@martinsims1273 AFAIK, the Class 47 serves a few different purposes on a charter train: 1. ETHEL Electric train heating. 2. In case of steam traction failure, it's there to provide back-up traction. Charter trains will be fined heavily if they cause delays/cancellations to the service trains. 3. Banking assistance...possibly but why not?
As long as the valve gear is correctly set ! Otherwise you can get unequal puffs, making three cylinder locos sound slightly odd. Not usual today as these locos being preserved are effectively "molly coddled" !
A lot of shove from the Class 47. You can clearly hear the 128 ton Class 47 as it passes the camera, & with 2,500hp (quite a bit more than a Royal Scot) is now doing MOST of the work, or the Scot alone would have been going much slower. Which also means the sanders on the Scot, were no longer necessary by this point !!!
Yup with the wet rails on that bank I suspect they were very much needed! I’m not sure how it did starting out of Victoria station but in my second clip you can see it slip some as it accelerates after its water stop (just out of shot in the loop at Guide Bridge)
Yes Steam sanders on, but by the time it reaches the camera, no longer necessary. As quite clearly the 2,500hp 128 ton Class 47 at the rear, is now doing MOST of the work. (Or the train would have been going much slower). Clearly indicated by the diesel engine speed sound, and significant diesel pollution emitting from the roof exhaust. A Class 47 when coasting, the engine speed returns to "tick over" so is much quieter, and virtually no visible Diesel pollution is emitted from its exhaust.
It went Philips Pk, Fairfield then guide bridge to water. Then to New Mills over Hope Valley line to Sheffield then joined the ECML near Church Fenton. Nice Manc loop which was very much unexpected when I saw it was Rugby - York!
I always thought the Duff's were shoving , but it appears un-manned , so not possible. Also , that wold be classed as banking, and there's very few 'official' bank engine sections around these day , so would at the very least require some kind of sdpecial dispensation.. Somewhat ironically, Platting bank was one until late '80's -early '90's. Had many happy days chasing tank trains and coal , like a cork from a bottle out of wallside to give a shove up there. The sound of the Sulzer at part-throttle is likely the E.T.H. engine speed-up. @@RailwayTavern
The 128 ton, 2,500 hp, Class 47 is quite clearly doing MOST of the work as seen when it passes the camera. (It is of course more powerful than the Royal Scot). The diesel loco engine revs appear to be "Flat out", and the amount of diesel pollution from the roof exhaust clearly indicates this. A Class 47 engine at "tick over" has very low rev's and is much quieter than heard here. Also the Diesel smoke emitted at "Tick over" is virtually invisible. The train would also have been going much slower if the Royal Scot had been alone. Further the Royal Scot would have been making a MUCH louder racket, with smoke blasting visciously & vertically from its chimney. As the Driver would have had to have the Regulator fully open (with 12 Mk1's on) & the Cut-off at a much higher percentage, due to starting the train near the foot of the gradient, and then slowly slogging it up the hill. Steam locos' generally have a higher "Tractive Effort" for the amount of horsepower they potentially have. When compared to modern traction which often has a better Horsepower to Tractive effort ratio. A simile to the difference between Current & Amps. I know I've driven Steam, Diesel & Electric in many countries around the World, & have just retired as the CME for a Railway Museum in mainland Europe.
I agree , the Scot does seem to be having an easy-ish time of it , and clearly doesn't seem to be in 'full forward' , maybe ever so slightly cut-off. 12 on is a good load for a Scot , and on Platting bank , even if taking a thru' road with no divergence from slow to fast or vice-versa , would have it's work cut out for sure. But the clincher is that the 47 appears unmanned, and there's no such thing as multi-working systems between steam and diesel . There was once such a system to allow 47's to work push/pull. Additionally, the exhaust note and fumes are commensurate with a good load on the ETH supply. The final 'gotcha' , is as I postulated, the fact that would be 'bank engine working' , and this is no longer authoerised under normal operations on Platting bank . So the unreal performance of 6100 on load 12 remains a mystery. @@railwaymechanicalengineer4587
Of course ! The 128 ton, 2,500hp Class 47, (more powerful than the Royal Scot) is clearly doing MOST of the work. Indicated by the rattling roar of the diesel engine, and the disgusting amount of diesel pollution emitting from its roof mounted exhaust. If the Diesel wasn't working hard the engine revs would have been noticeably slower & quieter, and the amount of pollution given out, noticeably less. Further the steam loco alone would have going much slower, making a lot more noise, and its smoke would have been blasting vertically much more powerfully. As the Driver would have had to have the Cut-off in a much higher percentage (to obtain more power).
or put another way the Scot is oveloaded for the route/ gradient/timings , because greedy train excursion promoters . To be honest these U.K steam excursions are boring and played out, Class 47 Diesel bankers nearly always on train consist , and over the Top Elf & Safety dazzling flood light lamps on locomotive front ends . @@railwaymechanicalengineer4587
The 128 ton, 2,500 hp Class 47 is clearly doing MOST of the work. As clearly indicated by the rattling roar of its diesel engine, and the disgusting amount of diesel pollution emitting from its roof exhaust. Obviously you haven't driven Diesels or Mainline Steam. like me !!!
They don't need the Class 47, the Royal Scot is quite capable of surmounting that gradient alone with 12 on. But it would have being going much slower, without the Class 47, and having to slog it up the bank. The problem with running steam trains through busy city areas in particular is "pathing requirements". The diesel allows the average speed of the steam special to be raised & slotted in amongst the generally faster regular timetabled services. The diesel is also "Insurance" against a steam loco failure. The problem however with current operation, where the diesel loco is at the rear, is that this is dangerous and was banned in BR days for obvious safety reasons. Which is that in long curves even at reasonable speeds, with the two locos only working in "Tandem" not "Multiple". In other words the driver in the leading loco has no direct control of the loco in rear. So in curves the heavy engine weight at the rear, tries to "Stretch out" the lighter carriages in between the locos. Which can result in the lighter coaches trying to fall inwards through a curve, in an attempt to reduce the distance between the two heavy locos. Especially if the rear loco is not "powering". The reason the HST's and the Push-Pull Edinburgh - Glasgow trains (using pairs of Class 27's) were allowed, is because both locos at each end of the train worked in "Multiple". So both the engines responded simultaneously to the drivers operation of the controls in the leading loco/power car. This principle had been proven as long ago as 1909 with the LB&SCR overhead electrification of the South London Line (Victoria to London Bridge). When trains composed of more than one EMU, all controlled from the leading cab, behaved in a safe manner.
GETTING CONNED FOR A STEAM TRAIN RIDE ??? With the class 47 clearly doing much of the work !!! And these dummies think they have been ("ripped off") for a steam train ride ? How can you possibly time the train or figure out how much power the steam loco is doing, when it also has to haul 128 tons of diesel, which does some at least of the work. It's TOTALLY POINTLESS, ABSOLUTE BUFFOONERY !!! This of course assumes there is anyone on the train that still knows how to work out, how much power the train loco is exerting, at every moment of the journey. Which was the norm in steam days by "train timing enthusiasts". The results of which were published monthly in such magazines as "The Railway Magazine". And of course you were paid if you got something published !!!!!!
What a heartwarming sight and sound...thank you from America...Merry Christmas...
Cheers, Merry Christmas to you too!
Excellent, thank you for showing this
Glad you enjoyed matey!
Appreciate the efforts and climbing that ladder!
Haha cheers
Unicycling lion on the tender blood and custard coaches heaven!
Perfect combo!
Excellent video's. Neat idea to also show the ladder, and the effort and ingenuity which goes into producing some of these shots.
Cheers Martin. I took a step ladder last time and it didn’t cut it haha. Also had to tend to the weeds on the other side of the wall but as I was racing of to catch the Scot again I forgot to mention the gardening exploits in the video 🤣
Loved the idea of the ladder.
Certainly brought a smile to my face. Nice video too.
Haha cheers 🍻
The climb to Miles Platting was always a challenge and 46100 with twelve on was working hard with the sanders on, even with a bit of help from the back. That is an iconic location somewhat spoilt by the electric gantries, and I cant believe it was raining in Manchester! How the Manchester skyline has changed since I lived there. I thought he slip at Hyde North was expertly controlled by the driver. Many thanks for braving the weather and posting this wonderful footage.
46100 was being helped by the class 47 up the bank at Miles Platting !!! By probably at least 60% of the power necessary to lift 12 coaches & two locos. (The Class 47 weighs around 128 tons, the equivalent of about 4 to 5 loaded Mk1 coaches) !!! So No, it impossible to figure out how much effort a steam loco exerts when you also have a Diesel loco included in the train. Making a total MOCKERY out of paying for a steam train ride. Not to mention the needless pollution generated by the Diesel, which is actually more dangerous to the environment than the smoke from the steam loco. In addition to which, is the fact that the ticket price has to include the cost of the diesel & the cost of the diesel loco driver. A TOTAL RIP OFF !!!
Cheers buddy glad you enjoyed!
4:13
The Driver must have had his hand on the Regulator in anticipation as he reacted very quickly in closing it👏👏👏
Yea I thought the same, right back on it and no messin!
Yea I thought the same, right back on it too and no messin!
Bloody hell, Northern trains do exist !
A superb looking steam locomotive..one of Staniers finest.
Indeed it is!
Fantastic cheers 👍🏆🇬🇧
Thank you! Cheers 🍻
Great videos love the royal Scot and train spotting myself
Glad you enjoyed!
@@RailwayTavern take care looking forward to see more
Now that's what a train should sound like! Great shots, well done and thank you.
Something I've always wondered is why so often there's a dominant cylinder. So you get that ONEtwothreefourfivesixONEtwothree etc. Seems to happen on all configurations of cylinders.
It would have sounded much more impressive if the (needless) Class 47 diesel hadn't being doing at least half the work, or better still had not been included in the train !!!
With two, three or four cylinder locos you get TWO, THREE OR FOUR puffs per ONE revolution of the driving wheels. With the exception of one of the SR Lord Nelson class locos, which had its cylinders set at 120 degrees. Giving six puffs per revolution, which made it sound like it was going twice as fast than it actually was.
Incidentally the original Royal Scots (as built) were based closely on the Lord Nelsons. As the LMS had requested a complete set of drawings from Eastleigh Works, which Maunsell kindly agreed too. The LMS were in a bit of a mechanical pickle at the time. A situation which Sir William Stanier promptly solved when he moved from the GWR to the LMS a few years later.
Cheers 🍻
Thanks for your efforts
It's my pleasure
No wonder it struggled a bit dragging that diesel loco behind it 😮
It wasn't struggling at all ! Indeed it was climbing the gradient faster than it would have done in steam days, thanks to that 2,500 hp (128 ton) Class 47 on the rear. Which is quiet clearly providing much of the power, as heard by its engine roar as it passes the camera. Further it's also clearly chucking out lots of Diesel pollution from the roof mounted exhaust. Diesels such as the Class 47, when not actually powering, the engine returns to "tick over" and is much quieter, and exhaust smoke is virtually invisible.
Scots can do anything, apart from generating electricity for heating a train 'oop North in December. Diesels are a "necessary evil" 🙂
@@railwaymechanicalengineer4587 It would be nice for the steam enthusiasts if they get get a steam banker, but that's probably difficult and expensive. And presumably the diesel is supplying the electric power to the train too?
I'm more of a diesel fan (just down to my age) but the sight we had a few years back of a steam loco-hauled train with two Pannier tanks banking it up the Lickey - that was quite something.
Beats me why so many present day "steam" specials have got a diesel bunged on the back, and so many times (again in recent years) I've seen steam loco's slipping. Why don't they use the sanding gear? Almost every steam loco in the country was designed and built with sanding gear, and (correct me if I'm wrong) but it seems as if present day loco crews/operators have an aversion to sanding, but using the sanding gear would reduce slipping, so allowing better timekeeping, more economical running (due to a steadier blast and a steadier burn rate, and a reduction of stress upon the driving gear (rods, wheels, axles, and frames). Wash sand and sharp sand is commonly available at virtually all builders merchant's, so is easy to procure (and fairly cheap), and drying the amounts needed is not difficult either.
@@martinsims1273 AFAIK, the Class 47 serves a few different purposes on a charter train:
1. ETHEL Electric train heating.
2. In case of steam traction failure, it's there to provide back-up traction. Charter trains will be fined heavily if they cause delays/cancellations to the service trains.
3. Banking assistance...possibly but why not?
Wow! Those three cylinder locos make gorgeous stack music‼️✌️🇦🇺
As long as the valve gear is correctly set ! Otherwise you can get unequal puffs, making three cylinder locos sound slightly odd. Not usual today as these locos being preserved are effectively "molly coddled" !
Yes indeed!
Great video mate, I’ve subbed to your channel
Legend! 🍻
Well done Thank you.
Cheers 🍻
Great videos mate hope royal Scot is ok
🍻
Great video !
Cheers Anthony!
A lovely steam engine pulling and a stinky old diesel on the rear end
Haha
Awesome video.
Cheers 🍻
Love the black 5 loco
It's not a black 5, it's a royal scot
My grandfather drove the Royal Scot.
Sanders on and a bit of a shove from the Duff. :)
A lot of shove from the Class 47. You can clearly hear the 128 ton Class 47 as it passes the camera, & with 2,500hp (quite a bit more than a Royal Scot) is now doing MOST of the work, or the Scot alone would have been going much slower. Which also means the sanders on the Scot, were no longer necessary by this point !!!
Good times 🍻
I just noticed that the sanders were going full throttle when heading up Miles Platting.
Yup with the wet rails on that bank I suspect they were very much needed! I’m not sure how it did starting out of Victoria station but in my second clip you can see it slip some as it accelerates after its water stop (just out of shot in the loop at Guide Bridge)
Yes Steam sanders on, but by the time it reaches the camera, no longer necessary. As quite clearly the 2,500hp 128 ton Class 47 at the rear, is now doing MOST of the work. (Or the train would have been going much slower). Clearly indicated by the diesel engine speed sound, and significant diesel pollution emitting from the roof exhaust. A Class 47 when coasting, the engine speed returns to "tick over" so is much quieter, and virtually no visible Diesel pollution is emitted from its exhaust.
0:33 is that Miles Platting Bank?
Certainly is Michael yes 👍🏼
You must get some funny looks carrying that ladder around in central Manchester.
I'm not a railways expert and I'm wondering why every steam engine video like this one seems to have a diesel pushing from the rear?
Leaving Victoria at 09.55, then Hyde North at 10.45. Which route did this take?
It went Philips Pk, Fairfield then guide bridge to water. Then to New Mills over Hope Valley line to Sheffield then joined the ECML near Church Fenton. Nice Manc loop which was very much unexpected when I saw it was Rugby - York!
She is making that look easy is the 47 helping [Miles plating]
Yea a little help I think from the 47 but back in the day the expresses would have had bankers so not totally unrealistic
I always thought the Duff's were shoving , but it appears un-manned , so not possible. Also , that wold be classed as banking, and there's very few 'official' bank engine sections around these day , so would at the very least require some kind of sdpecial dispensation.. Somewhat ironically, Platting bank was one until late '80's -early '90's. Had many happy days chasing tank trains and coal , like a cork from a bottle out of wallside to give a shove up there. The sound of the Sulzer at part-throttle is likely the E.T.H. engine speed-up. @@RailwayTavern
The 128 ton, 2,500 hp, Class 47 is quite clearly doing MOST of the work as seen when it passes the camera. (It is of course more powerful than the Royal Scot). The diesel loco engine revs appear to be "Flat out", and the amount of diesel pollution from the roof exhaust clearly indicates this. A Class 47 engine at "tick over" has very low rev's and is much quieter than heard here. Also the Diesel smoke emitted at "Tick over" is virtually invisible.
The train would also have been going much slower if the Royal Scot had been alone. Further the Royal Scot would have been making a MUCH louder racket, with smoke blasting visciously & vertically from its chimney. As the Driver would have had to have the Regulator fully open (with 12 Mk1's on) & the Cut-off at a much higher percentage, due to starting the train near the foot of the gradient, and then slowly slogging it up the hill. Steam locos' generally have a higher "Tractive Effort" for the amount of horsepower they potentially have. When compared to modern traction which often has a better Horsepower to Tractive effort ratio. A simile to the difference between Current & Amps.
I know I've driven Steam, Diesel & Electric in many countries around the World, & have just retired as the CME for a Railway Museum in mainland Europe.
I agree , the Scot does seem to be having an easy-ish time of it , and clearly doesn't seem to be in 'full forward' , maybe ever so slightly cut-off. 12 on is a good load for a Scot , and on Platting bank , even if taking a thru' road with no divergence from slow to fast or vice-versa , would have it's work cut out for sure. But the clincher is that the 47 appears unmanned, and there's no such thing as multi-working systems between steam and diesel . There was once such a system to allow 47's to work push/pull. Additionally, the exhaust note and fumes are commensurate with a good load on the ETH supply. The final 'gotcha' , is as I postulated, the fact that would be 'bank engine working' , and this is no longer authoerised under normal operations on Platting bank . So the unreal performance of 6100 on load 12 remains a mystery. @@railwaymechanicalengineer4587
We need smelly vision for these great video😊
Iam sure the rear diesel was pushing
Of course ! The 128 ton, 2,500hp Class 47, (more powerful than the Royal Scot) is clearly doing MOST of the work. Indicated by the rattling roar of the diesel engine, and the disgusting amount of diesel pollution emitting from its roof mounted exhaust.
If the Diesel wasn't working hard the engine revs would have been noticeably slower & quieter, and the amount of pollution given out, noticeably less. Further the steam loco alone would have going much slower, making a lot more noise, and its smoke would have been blasting vertically much more powerfully. As the Driver would have had to have the Cut-off in a much higher percentage (to obtain more power).
I wouldn’t say most of the work. A little banking yes
or put another way the Scot is oveloaded for the route/ gradient/timings , because greedy train excursion promoters . To be honest these U.K steam excursions are boring and played out, Class 47 Diesel bankers nearly always on train consist , and over the Top Elf & Safety dazzling flood light lamps on locomotive front ends . @@railwaymechanicalengineer4587
Imagine a time when all trains were this noisy and belching smoke everywhere, hellish.
Those were great times, lad. Now, smoke is just belched from industry.
Fabulous I’d say!
The deisel doesnot appear to do much pushing
The 128 ton, 2,500 hp Class 47 is clearly doing MOST of the work. As clearly indicated by the rattling roar of its diesel engine, and the disgusting amount of diesel pollution emitting from its roof exhaust. Obviously you haven't driven Diesels or Mainline Steam. like me !!!
Shame the diesel was pushing up the M.P. bank.
Or is it just providing electric power . It sounded as it was in idle mode..
Yea a little assistance I think maybe but not masses.
I cant believe they have to push a preserved loco so hard
They don't need the Class 47, the Royal Scot is quite capable of surmounting that gradient alone with 12 on. But it would have being going much slower, without the Class 47, and having to slog it up the bank. The problem with running steam trains through busy city areas in particular is "pathing requirements". The diesel allows the average speed of the steam special to be raised & slotted in amongst the generally faster regular timetabled services. The diesel is also "Insurance" against a steam loco failure.
The problem however with current operation, where the diesel loco is at the rear, is that this is dangerous and was banned in BR days for obvious safety reasons. Which is that in long curves even at reasonable speeds, with the two locos only working in "Tandem" not "Multiple". In other words the driver in the leading loco has no direct control of the loco in rear. So in curves the heavy engine weight at the rear, tries to "Stretch out" the lighter carriages in between the locos. Which can result in the lighter coaches trying to fall inwards through a curve, in an attempt to reduce the distance between the two heavy locos. Especially if the rear loco is not "powering".
The reason the HST's and the Push-Pull Edinburgh - Glasgow trains (using pairs of Class 27's) were allowed, is because both locos at each end of the train worked in "Multiple". So both the engines responded simultaneously to the drivers operation of the controls in the leading loco/power car. This principle had been proven as long ago as 1909 with the LB&SCR overhead electrification of the South London Line (Victoria to London Bridge). When trains composed of more than one EMU, all controlled from the leading cab, behaved in a safe manner.
GETTING CONNED FOR A STEAM TRAIN RIDE ???
With the class 47 clearly doing much of the work !!! And these dummies think they have been ("ripped off") for a steam train ride ? How can you possibly time the train or figure out how much power the steam loco is doing, when it also has to haul 128 tons of diesel, which does some at least of the work. It's TOTALLY POINTLESS, ABSOLUTE BUFFOONERY !!!
This of course assumes there is anyone on the train that still knows how to work out, how much power the train loco is exerting, at every moment of the journey. Which was the norm in steam days by "train timing enthusiasts". The results of which were published monthly in such magazines as "The Railway Magazine". And of course you were paid if you got something published !!!!!!
Might not be perfect but certainly better than it being mothballed in a museum.
A steam engine being pushed by a diesel ......
True enough
Beautiful big beast of a machine. Followed by a rancid, bland, zero personality diesel