Love it. Like the goat JP says: “take your lifts up (with good form) and your bodyweight up (from a lean starting place). That’s all bodybuilding is, everything else is noise”
John Meadows died before the lengthened partial fad but he always had a great philosophy: start with an exercise where you have a good connection that pumped some blood into the muscle. Your second exercise is where you load it and once the muscle is full of blood you then work on a stretch exercise (he felt this was safer). I get a kick out of all these influencers who built their physique one way and are now advocating for a new approach (that's not directed at Faz)!
I think this is good advice but I wouldn't necessarily say you need to save the stretch for post warmup. Personally I hate dedicated warmup sets so I try to warm up a muscle group with high rep, high rom, big stretch movements. Like chest flies before benching. This can also be used to pre-fatigue muscle groups and get more out of certain compounds. It turns my bench into what feels like a 1/3rd set of triceps and full set of chest to getting both muscle groups close to failure by my last rep. Spares my joints since I can get away with less weight as well.
I am confident that these science based types want to make lifting as complicated as possible so that they can justify their own existence on the platform. The point about Mike Israetel is also very true. GVS did a video on how he's jumped the shark. I had to unsubscribe from RP as his videos are just recycled sex jokes with a tiny bit of actual content. That's what I like about your channel Faz, it feels like I'm listening to a more experienced gym bro that's done it all and isn't bullshitting me.
Dropped volume increased intensity and constantly adding weight is where I am currently at. Making good progress, then I’ll cycle back to a moderately higher volume with a lower intensity. I’ll switch a few lifts when I do but I’ll keep the lifts I use as markers of progression in place.
I actually have a video about exactly this out soon, I know this was something you and I worked on and I want to talk about it in a broad sense on the YT
The déluge of toxic heuristics. I honestly place SFR in this category as well, but only insofar as it's abuse goes, given it's useful within a certain context but can be more of a cope when applied as a blanket principle.
@@Fazlifts yeah, some stimuli are just hardly attainable without a hefty helping of fatigue, and it's just a fact to contend with in the realm of load and volume management rather than a wholesale rebuke of a given movement.
An event that has stayed in my mind for months was a person (who does NOT lift weights) critiquing my cable crunch form for not looking like the youtube tutorial. I do 120lbs on the plate loaded cable crunch, its so much weight relative to my body at 200lbs that its physically impossible to make that form look like it would at 45lbs. I found it hilarious they told me that it wasnt working my abs, because my abs are always sore the next day and the pure weighted stretch I feel on my ab muscles is insane
I’m 28 now and been lifting since 22. And watched social media lifting before that- didn’t lift seriously tho. Iv tried the HIT the high volume, partials. Small benefit at most. The best results Iv gotten are from sticking to some core exercises and focusing on progress load in a moderate rep range (mostly 5-8 rep range) Lyle had it right doesn’t matter what you did your lifts did not improve you did not gain muscle. I think that’s why strength standards are actually important! Focus on hitting those with good form. Be at a decent bodyfat percentage and then see how your physique looks.
I'm glad there's finally some pushback on Muh Science, since stuff like Stretch Mediated Hypertrophy or God forbid 'Lengthened partials' are as much pseudoscience as Joel Sneedman's 90 degree angles meme The guys pushing Lengthened Partials online are the same kind of know it all DYEL's who used to 'specialize' in other memes to avoid the fact that they couldn't bench 315
I think another facet of this issue is that fitness is kind of a revolving door of discourse. Most people just don't stay training for that long, they're exiting the revolving door from the other side as other people enter, so there's so few people who've had the time to recognize these things popping up again and again.
When I got back in to lifting - 2019 - you could buy s@rms on the bay and the world's largest river websites. Then "the squeeze" was the thing. Everyone was always talking about protein synthesis. Then the TRT era came, where volume was king. Now kids are on tren, and the stretch is a must... What next?
I started training before social media was big and trained to get stronger over time with basic exercises, yes advice from the gym bros at the time but it was a much simpler time. I did get caught up in optimal this and that and have recently returned to my roots if you like and I love it, varying angles of presses, pull ups, rows, squats,hinges etc . My training isn’t necessarily always on point purely down to life changes but it’s so much more enjoyable and I still make small progressions
for the algo anyways i'm rather curious as to why "emphasize lengthened ROM" vs "lifting heavy" seems to be framed as a mutual distinction. lets say one person watches sam sulek and one person is on team lengthened (TM) - let's say the first person benches touch and go with a straight bar. maybe a romanian/stiffleg deadlift. - let's say the second person benches with a cambered bar, pause on the chest, skips the lockout. maybe a deficit SLDL or bottom half rep (have seen alberto nunez post clips doing such) do we think that either of these will produce significantly different outcomes assuming both people are putting similar attention to progressively getting stronger with their chosen technique? - we could make an educated bet about biomechanics, maybe some muscles benefitting more from mid-shortened work (in the form of possibly using more weight without extended range of motion modifications), or the extra calcium ion fatigue from more stretched position exercises (chris beardsley has discussed this) being possibly detrimental. - would could also simply bet that mr team lengthened (TM) is probabilistically either a person who doesn't train with as much relative effort (quite plausible), or someone predisposed to having a short enough attention span to switch their routine often enough to substantially impact their progression (also extremely plausible and somewhat relatable)?
Yeah I get what you're saying but in fairness I did provide a few caveats during the video about this. I'll repeat them here, I don't have axe to grind against SFR, lengthened partials or higher volumes. Just like I don't have an axe to grind against IIFYM or the misguided MPS research. I provide a short summary of the main issue starting at 4:15 And the nuanced caveat here 7:01 and here 7:40 My issue is when these concepts are taken to such an extreme that the majority of what drives growth is lost. In the example of lengthened partials, certainly what I see is a lack of focus on the basics of lifting heavy, with good form and medium to high reps. This is a tale which has repeated itself over decades, i've seen various fads come and go which people have used to replace the basics and ultimately fail. That's what this video is about. Your final paragraph there is what I'm warning against.
@@Fazlifts agreed. i find the actual influencers are generally good at not overstating magnitude of effect in very strict terms. I imagine you could grow just fine off a program comprised of entirely lengthened bias work unless you see some muscles (glutes and triceps generally) benefitting from shortened biased work but the types of people who would try to do something like that are just the people who train with mid tier relative effort and won’t commit to a program in the first place.
Been following DC training recently, all I can say is within weeks I've put a plate on my bench, plate on my bent over row and a plate on my squat There's ofc no such thing as a be all and end all methodology but I 100 percent agree that there are inherent benefits in a program that emphasizes progressive overload over lengthened partials, tension, or whatever the heck is the latest buzz in the fitness industry these days Want bigger lats? Get to the final pin on the lat pull down
Since your last video, I start filming my sets and reviewing them. Then I realized that I really got a couple more reps in me and grind harder. Imo lengthen partials are just skewing the rom to a longer lever position, aka Mechanical Tension. To achieve this result, maybe the easiest way is to LIFT MORE WEIGHT BABYYYYYYYY
I have been training at the legendary Genesis Gym, Wembley. They actually have Strive machines where you can load the stretch for preacher, tricep extension and prone leg curl. Most ppl seem to just weight the middle tbh. I got advised by a vet to use the least rom on the machine flye to protect my shoulders. I don't think they do trends there lol. Ultimately I do like stretch-biased movements, I sort if have a yoga background and perhaps I gravitate slightly towards the trend as a result. As a final very pretentious (pseudo?) intellectual point, if you read some of the metamodern stuff on the model of hierarchical complexity then it becomes easier to understand why most ppl gravitate towards simple concepts like 'stretch-bias' or 'Team Full ROM'. Most people are not natural system thinkers and prefer simple concepts.
"Most people are not natural system thinkers and prefer simple concepts" True, I think in this case I almost wish people kept it simple. For the example of the strive machines, I think there's a lot to be said for people just loading the middle and forgetting all about stretch and resistance curves. People talk about that a lot on this platform, but the audience just isn't really going to get much from it. The kid who knows all about how to optimise the resistance curve for his favourite machine, also weighs 70kg and benches 60kg
Hmm.. history/trends repeat itself but I do think we will be trained by AI resistance machines in the future with the perfect strength curve to deliver the highest stimlus to fatigue ratio! They already exist but are insanely expensive and aren't quite V1 yet. Interesting point on influencers.. I keep discovering accounts with Millions of followers that I had never heard of and I started Stronglifts back in 2009 (albeit my consistency was lacking)!
I have a bit of a mixed feeling towards the over-emphasis on stretch. Anecodtally it's been a game changer for me. As a plateud bird-boned intermediate, higher rep ranges with an emphasis on stretch and cutting loads as much as 30% helped me finally get in the volume I needed to grow without getting tendonitis in 2 weeks. That being said, it's annoying seeing small broccoli heads (not to be deragatory, but you know the TikTok demographic) talk about niche stuff like lengthed partials and insulin sensitivity before they have even figured out how to successfully bulk/cut, their volume landmarks (MEV/MRV), and all the other big stones that are needed for progress. It's like going online to debate the best way to cook pasta while you still DoorDash every meal. Cart before the horse is an understatement.
Love it. Like the goat JP says: “take your lifts up (with good form) and your bodyweight up (from a lean starting place). That’s all bodybuilding is, everything else is noise”
"They're usually fucking small" AMEN
Haha, unusually candid Faz spotted
John Meadows died before the lengthened partial fad but he always had a great philosophy: start with an exercise where you have a good connection that pumped some blood into the muscle. Your second exercise is where you load it and once the muscle is full of blood you then work on a stretch exercise (he felt this was safer). I get a kick out of all these influencers who built their physique one way and are now advocating for a new approach (that's not directed at Faz)!
Maik Weidenbach has a similar approach.
Cant you just do more warm up sets instead of a mind muscle exercise to pump some blood? You do first what you want to focus on the most
@@goggins6121 It worked for Meadows.
I think this is good advice but I wouldn't necessarily say you need to save the stretch for post warmup. Personally I hate dedicated warmup sets so I try to warm up a muscle group with high rep, high rom, big stretch movements. Like chest flies before benching.
This can also be used to pre-fatigue muscle groups and get more out of certain compounds. It turns my bench into what feels like a 1/3rd set of triceps and full set of chest to getting both muscle groups close to failure by my last rep. Spares my joints since I can get away with less weight as well.
The Mountain Dog!!! RIP
I was going to reminisce on those YT days too! Gold 💪
I am confident that these science based types want to make lifting as complicated as possible so that they can justify their own existence on the platform.
The point about Mike Israetel is also very true. GVS did a video on how he's jumped the shark. I had to unsubscribe from RP as his videos are just recycled sex jokes with a tiny bit of actual content.
That's what I like about your channel Faz, it feels like I'm listening to a more experienced gym bro that's done it all and isn't bullshitting me.
Same. unsubscribe from RP ,it became annoying
Agreed, but for some reason the Chris Williamson crowd seem to be really into him.
It's likely because the Chris Williams crowd are casuals who know no better
Dropped volume increased intensity and constantly adding weight is where I am currently at. Making good progress, then I’ll cycle back to a moderately higher volume with a lower intensity. I’ll switch a few lifts when I do but I’ll keep the lifts I use as markers of progression in place.
I actually have a video about exactly this out soon, I know this was something you and I worked on and I want to talk about it in a broad sense on the YT
The déluge of toxic heuristics. I honestly place SFR in this category as well, but only insofar as it's abuse goes, given it's useful within a certain context but can be more of a cope when applied as a blanket principle.
Right exactly.
It's a sensible concept but all too often people forget the S and worry too much about the F.
@@Fazlifts yeah, some stimuli are just hardly attainable without a hefty helping of fatigue, and it's just a fact to contend with in the realm of load and volume management rather than a wholesale rebuke of a given movement.
An event that has stayed in my mind for months was a person (who does NOT lift weights) critiquing my cable crunch form for not looking like the youtube tutorial. I do 120lbs on the plate loaded cable crunch, its so much weight relative to my body at 200lbs that its physically impossible to make that form look like it would at 45lbs.
I found it hilarious they told me that it wasnt working my abs, because my abs are always sore the next day and the pure weighted stretch I feel on my ab muscles is insane
I’m 28 now and been lifting since 22. And watched social media lifting before that- didn’t lift seriously tho. Iv tried the HIT the high volume, partials. Small benefit at most. The best results Iv gotten are from sticking to some core exercises and focusing on progress load in a moderate rep range (mostly 5-8 rep range) Lyle had it right doesn’t matter what you did your lifts did not improve you did not gain muscle.
I think that’s why strength standards are actually important! Focus on hitting those with good form. Be at a decent bodyfat percentage and then see how your physique looks.
I'm glad there's finally some pushback on Muh Science, since stuff like Stretch Mediated Hypertrophy or God forbid 'Lengthened partials' are as much pseudoscience as Joel Sneedman's 90 degree angles meme
The guys pushing Lengthened Partials online are the same kind of know it all DYEL's who used to 'specialize' in other memes to avoid the fact that they couldn't bench 315
Imho you made some great points. Context matters. Nuance matters.
Amen to this video. Way too many guys obsessing over this lengthened partial stuff recently. We've been training like this for years already.
I think another facet of this issue is that fitness is kind of a revolving door of discourse. Most people just don't stay training for that long, they're exiting the revolving door from the other side as other people enter, so there's so few people who've had the time to recognize these things popping up again and again.
Love me a fazlifts history lesson as always. Cheers faz great video
When I got back in to lifting - 2019 - you could buy s@rms on the bay and the world's largest river websites. Then "the squeeze" was the thing. Everyone was always talking about protein synthesis. Then the TRT era came, where volume was king. Now kids are on tren, and the stretch is a must... What next?
Great video. 100% on point. What does matter and you can't go wrong with is hard, heavy, consist training on compounds, with progressive overload.
Donkey calf raise machine.........i'm jealous. Your gym is epic, Faz.
It is pretty sick yeah
Love the angle at 0:40
Jesus 😭
I started training before social media was big and trained to get stronger over time with basic exercises, yes advice from the gym bros at the time but it was a much simpler time. I did get caught up in optimal this and that and have recently returned to my roots if you like and I love it, varying angles of presses, pull ups, rows, squats,hinges etc . My training isn’t necessarily always on point purely down to life changes but it’s so much more enjoyable and I still make small progressions
For the algorithm, great calves by the way
Right? Mirin' dem calf veins...
IIFYM = I want to eat like a 12 year old
Trends = trying to find the easiest way to do the hard thing.
for the algo
anyways i'm rather curious as to why "emphasize lengthened ROM" vs "lifting heavy" seems to be framed as a mutual distinction.
lets say one person watches sam sulek and one person is on team lengthened (TM)
- let's say the first person benches touch and go with a straight bar. maybe a romanian/stiffleg deadlift.
- let's say the second person benches with a cambered bar, pause on the chest, skips the lockout. maybe a deficit SLDL or bottom half rep (have seen alberto nunez post clips doing such)
do we think that either of these will produce significantly different outcomes assuming both people are putting similar attention to progressively getting stronger with their chosen technique?
- we could make an educated bet about biomechanics, maybe some muscles benefitting more from mid-shortened work (in the form of possibly using more weight without extended range of motion modifications), or the extra calcium ion fatigue from more stretched position exercises (chris beardsley has discussed this) being possibly detrimental.
- would could also simply bet that mr team lengthened (TM) is probabilistically either a person who doesn't train with as much relative effort (quite plausible), or someone predisposed to having a short enough attention span to switch their routine often enough to substantially impact their progression (also extremely plausible and somewhat relatable)?
Yeah I get what you're saying but in fairness I did provide a few caveats during the video about this. I'll repeat them here, I don't have axe to grind against SFR, lengthened partials or higher volumes. Just like I don't have an axe to grind against IIFYM or the misguided MPS research. I provide a short summary of the main issue starting at 4:15
And the nuanced caveat here 7:01 and here 7:40
My issue is when these concepts are taken to such an extreme that the majority of what drives growth is lost. In the example of lengthened partials, certainly what I see is a lack of focus on the basics of lifting heavy, with good form and medium to high reps.
This is a tale which has repeated itself over decades, i've seen various fads come and go which people have used to replace the basics and ultimately fail. That's what this video is about. Your final paragraph there is what I'm warning against.
@@Fazlifts agreed. i find the actual influencers are generally good at not overstating magnitude of effect in very strict terms. I imagine you could grow just fine off a program comprised of entirely lengthened bias work unless you see some muscles (glutes and triceps generally) benefitting from shortened biased work but the types of people who would try to do something like that are just the people who train with mid tier relative effort and won’t commit to a program in the first place.
Been following DC training recently, all I can say is within weeks I've put a plate on my bench, plate on my bent over row and a plate on my squat
There's ofc no such thing as a be all and end all methodology but I 100 percent agree that there are inherent benefits in a program that emphasizes progressive overload over lengthened partials, tension, or whatever the heck is the latest buzz in the fitness industry these days
Want bigger lats? Get to the final pin on the lat pull down
Since your last video, I start filming my sets and reviewing them. Then I realized that I really got a couple more reps in me and grind harder.
Imo lengthen partials are just skewing the rom to a longer lever position, aka Mechanical Tension.
To achieve this result, maybe the easiest way is to LIFT MORE WEIGHT BABYYYYYYYY
Yep, filming is a very valuable tool. I do it almost every session.
I have been training at the legendary Genesis Gym, Wembley. They actually have Strive machines where you can load the stretch for preacher, tricep extension and prone leg curl. Most ppl seem to just weight the middle tbh.
I got advised by a vet to use the least rom on the machine flye to protect my shoulders.
I don't think they do trends there lol.
Ultimately I do like stretch-biased movements, I sort if have a yoga background and perhaps I gravitate slightly towards the trend as a result.
As a final very pretentious (pseudo?) intellectual point, if you read some of the metamodern stuff on the model of hierarchical complexity then it becomes easier to understand why most ppl gravitate towards simple concepts like 'stretch-bias' or 'Team Full ROM'. Most people are not natural system thinkers and prefer simple concepts.
"Most people are not natural system thinkers and prefer simple concepts"
True, I think in this case I almost wish people kept it simple. For the example of the strive machines, I think there's a lot to be said for people just loading the middle and forgetting all about stretch and resistance curves. People talk about that a lot on this platform, but the audience just isn't really going to get much from it.
The kid who knows all about how to optimise the resistance curve for his favourite machine, also weighs 70kg and benches 60kg
I was waiting for the poptarts and protein shake example 😂 #fatherflex those calves are looking ridiculous!
It was a classic, Ian McPopTart!
Gotta keep people on their toes, all the talk was about my traps for a while!
Wisdom. Subbed.
There is a ton of good basic lifting information online, so I guess most people get the basics.
Yeah but it's great entertainment watching and listening to these guys as they constantly embrace extreme new fads and get absolutely nowhere 😅
Good take
Appreciate that dude, and welcome to the channel.
So I'm guessing no collaboration video with the RP guys anytime soon.?😂 Seriously though, good points well made.👍
I'm not sure I'm their ideal guest! Thanks
Hmm.. history/trends repeat itself but I do think we will be trained by AI resistance machines in the future with the perfect strength curve to deliver the highest stimlus to fatigue ratio! They already exist but are insanely expensive and aren't quite V1 yet.
Interesting point on influencers.. I keep discovering accounts with Millions of followers that I had never heard of and I started Stronglifts back in 2009 (albeit my consistency was lacking)!
Comment for the algorithm
🔥🔥🔥
💪💪
For god’s sake when did we get away from progressive overload with good form over a full range of motion? Is it that hard???
💪
You have mail! Check your spam/junk if it doesn't appear straight away 💪💪
🎉🎉🎉🎉
Ye olde algo comment
algo
comment for the algo
Algo
Does eating owl meat instead of turkey make you smarter?...lol
for the algo
Like when someone does a dissertation on something and then tries to make it a cult so they can get social media famous
I have a bit of a mixed feeling towards the over-emphasis on stretch.
Anecodtally it's been a game changer for me. As a plateud bird-boned intermediate, higher rep ranges with an emphasis on stretch and cutting loads as much as 30% helped me finally get in the volume I needed to grow without getting tendonitis in 2 weeks.
That being said, it's annoying seeing small broccoli heads (not to be deragatory, but you know the TikTok demographic) talk about niche stuff like lengthed partials and insulin sensitivity before they have even figured out how to successfully bulk/cut, their volume landmarks (MEV/MRV), and all the other big stones that are needed for progress.
It's like going online to debate the best way to cook pasta while you still DoorDash every meal. Cart before the horse is an understatement.