love this channel, great content and womderfully prepared. I've also just been told that Tom is my neighbour and I dont meet many people who share my obsession with these kinds of questions so that's good. Great stuff guys, keep it up!
We know a huge amount about Cleopatra, because of her involvement with two extremely important Roman individuals. This information comes to us through Roman writings, we know about her times when she is involved with these two individuals but nothing or very little from other sources. Yet the total amount of information known her is tiny in comparison with the supposed information regarding Jesus. None of the information written about Jesus is contemporary and it is extremely important to understand that they are written in the third person. So despite their names, Mark, Matthew, Luke and John they weren't written by anybody with those names, writing about their experiences. Not to mention the apostles were supposed to be illiterate
@38:00, yes! And if these guys over here are Hellenist last week and now this week Romanish, then of course there seems to be a question of identity and authenticity?
Please correct me if I misunderstand, but according to Tom Holland, Rome wasn't even collecting taxes from Galilee? Then all of the films, books and TV shows we've seen where tax collectors (like Matthew supposedly was before following Jesus) are wrong? Or is it just that the tax collectors in Galilee (including Capernaum, where Jesus spent most of his time) were collecting for Herod Antipas, and not for Caesar? If this is true, then the TV series "The Chosen" (which supposedly uses historical consultants to get the period right) is totally wrong, and people have had the wrong idea for decades if not centuries. Would appreciate if someone would clear this up for me. Thanks.
I’m not sure where Tom got this information. But Publicans (tax collectors among various other titles & job descriptions depending on need) existed all over the Roman Empire at this time. And yes, eventually percentages of all taxes went back to Rome through both direct, indirect, farm & additional Jewish taxation. Some people mistake this because in theory Rome was not supposed to be taxing it’s satellite states. In practice, the Roman system of taxation was extremely corrupt & often extended into regions it had not technically annexed. This includes conducting a census leading up to an annexation. This happened in many regions that were helpless against the expansion of Rome, including Galilee. There was also an entire industry of fake tax collectors running around the outskirts of the empire conducting censuses & collecting taxes that Roman officials had no ability to police. A villager or farmer in Galilee might not know they’d been tricked for months, years or possibly ever.
During the time of Jesus, Galilee was an independent client kingdom under Herod Antipas. Judea was a Roman province. Galilee was not. During the time of Jesus taxes were definitely collected in Galilee but they were collected by Antipas, not by Rome. As it pertains to the census: Herod the Great died in 4 BCE. Herod was a client king, which means he ruled independently of Rome and paid them a tribute. Rome did not conduct censuses or collect taxes. After Herod died, his kingdom was divided between three of his sons. A son named Archeleaus got the biggest part, Judea, which included Jerusalem and the Temple. Antipas got Galilee and Perea. Antipas is the "Herod" who killed John the Baptist and wants to see Jesus do magic tricks in the Gospel. The third part, East of the Jordan went to Philip, who is mentioned in the Gospels when Jesus flees to his territory to escape from Antipas. Archaelaus turned out to be so brutal and incompetent that after ten years an embassy of Judeans went to Augustus in Rome and asked him to make them a Roman province and get rid of Archelaus (this was not unusual. A lot of populations preferred the stability of Roman rule to tyrannical local kings. Freedom wasn't really a thing. you were going to be subject to someone. You might as well get the best deal). Augustus gave them what they wanted. Archelaus was removed, Judea was annexed as a part of the Syrian province and a governor was appointed to conduct the first Roman census of Judea in 6-7 CE. This census was conducted in Judea and only Judea. Galilee was still a client kingdom not subject to census or tax by ROME. That doesn't mean they weren't taxed by Antipas.
@@lutherandross3165 Galilee was not a Roman province during the time of Jesus. Judea was, Galilee was an independent client kingdom under Herod Antipas, not subject to Roman censuses or taxes. The tax collectors in Galilee worked for Antipas, not Rome.
@@Ken_Scaletta Thanks for this, Ken. You've confirmed what historian Tom Holland says. So in "The Chosen," when we see Matthew in his tax collection booth in Capernaum (Galilee) guarded by a Roman soldier, that is wrong. If he was guarded, it would have been one of Herod Antipas's soldiers, not a Roman. Thanks again.
@@mindfulskills That is correct. There were no Roman troops in Galilee during the time of Jesus. the Herods had their own soldiers and tax collectors. Antipas was rapacious. Fishers on the Sea of Galilee (which is really a lake, not a sea) were not just free to fish the lake and keep or sell what they caught. The lake was literally the private property of Antipas. Fishers had to pay a fee to fish on the lake, then had to pay a percentage of what they caught in Capernaum, then had to pay a toll to take it and sell it in Magdal (which was a major fish processing city just south of Capernaum. Most of what was caight in the lake was processed into garum - a ubiquitous ancient fish sauce). Then got taxed on what they sold as well. By the time they were done getting taxed, they had just enough to survive on. It was a hand to mouth existence. Tax collectors were despised no matter who they worked for.
Thank you for this episode. The ‘brother of Christ’ reference in Josephus is also disputed as chief priests were apparently also called Christ (as they were anointed) and the passage which contains it is all about a succession crisis concerning high priests. I thought the gospel of Mark is usually dated in the 70s when the temple was destroyed as it is very focussed on temple references. The earliest Christian writings are the epistles of Paul and they are mainly strangely uninterested in the life of Jesus.
John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth, James the Just and Paul of Tarsus ... are radical figures. The work of the Holy Spirit works thru many people ... these people have short degrees of separation. What we do get eventually out of all the Anointing going on before and later, are three State organizations, one in Armenia, one in Ethiopia and one scattered thru the Roman Empire. All of which are radical events in history, compared to the previous 1000 years. It is reasonable to think that what develops into Islam came out of disparate Nestorian groups (the non-State Churches of the Near East onward thru Persia to India and China).
It's not strange that Paul doesn't delve into Jesus's biography. He was writing to people who were presumably already aware and convinced of the basic story. If I address a letter to, say, the organizer of basketball tournament, it isn't necessary for my letter to recount the historical development of basketball.
I love how, after about a minute, you say the name 'Jesus Christ' as if the plumber had just rung to say he wouldn't be coming to fix your leak 'til tomorrow.
History is relevant because it isn't past, but alive in the present. It is wrong to think history is discontinuity. Modernity and Enlightenment are taught as discontinuity as revolution. But human nature isn't greatly different thru the ages. In Eternity all time is one.
I think the Cross wasn't a Christian symbol until after Constantine became Emperor in 4th century. The cross was a symbol of shame and still used for capital punishment until then often reserved for slaves and foreigners. Early Christian symbols were a fish, or a vine, Chi Rho (X and a P) Alpha/Omega or the good shepherd.
@@mikegalway4733That's not true, Christians have been using the sign of the cross since at least the very early 3rd century (and very likely quite a bit of time before that as well). Jesus even tells his followers to pick up their cross. Crucifixion was considered a shameful way to die, but that's the point, that's why sacrifice is meaningless, the most innocent man dies the most shameful death.
It was very interesting and revealing to know that the soldiers under Pontius Pilate were not Romans, as has always been supposed, but most likely Samaritans. This finally explains a mystery I have always wondered about: Why would Roman soldiers beat Jesus so savagely, taunt him and make a crown of thorns for him? To them he would presumably have been just another Judean rebel, no different from any other. However, if the soldiers were Samaritans, not Roman, and were therefore “Jew-ish” and hated the Judeans, this would explain why they would have mocked and savagely beaten Jesus. For them Jesus’s claim to be the Jewish Messiah would have inspired great ire, and this would also explain things like them drawing lots for his clothes etc. None of which I could ever imagine Roman soldiers doing. This really adds useful context to the understanding of the Gospel accounts.
That bothered me as well. Not for the reasons that you give but because as far as I know all Roman soldiers in those days were not equipped with the hasta but the pilum. I doubt that a Roman on guard duty would be equipped with either. the "Roman" soldier supposedly pierces Jesus with a spear.
If the Roman auxiliaries were principally Samaritans, how did Pilate fall into the massacre at Mt. Gerizim (the “Temple Mount” of the Samaritans) that caused his removal from office, and recall to Rome?
Being Roman wasn't a racial / ethnic thing, it was a political /national identity, citizenship like today, if a Samaritan moved to the USA and became a citizen
One of the major sects mentioned by Josephus and Pliny the Elder were the Essenes. But there is no mention of them in the gospels or Paul's letters. Why is this?
Paul isn’t writing history, and perhaps Essenes were not very influential outside of the vicinity of Judea (a place where Paul wasn’t very active after his conversion). The gospels are biographies of Jesus, who apparently did not quarrel with the Essenes, or base his own teaching on their authority. He claimed his own authority, and didn’t rely on that or any other sect.
I’m wondering, given that about half of Acts is written as a biography of St. Paul, but doesn’t end with his martyrdom, and given that Acts is presented as a continuation of the Gospel of Luke by the same author, is it skepticism, scholarship, or just open hostility to the Christian tradition that causes you to date the writing of Luke’s gospel to the end of the first century. If Luke wrote his gospel that late, why doesn’t he finish Acts with the end of Paul’s earthly life, or at least the end of his ministry? It seems implausible to date that gospel so late.
Let's talk about Saul the pharisee who became Paul the apostle and wrote about the resurrection a mere 20 years after it took place. "I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received - that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day. (1 Cor. 15).
"according to the Scriptures". As this great podcast mentions often, things were said and done to conform with prophecy. Not denigrating Paul as a source, but he would certainly not be overlooking a chance to back up his story with a little history.
@@pattismithurs9023 Yes it's a great podcast, but what I hoped they would discuss is this question - What caused this jewish leader and pharisee to suddenly become a faithful follower of the dead messiah he had so fervently opposed? I believe the best explanation is what the New Testament gives witness to and the early church bears out, namely, that he saw the risen Lord Jesus Christ face to face on the road to Damascus.
Yes, the whole thing was Paul's invention, who never met Jesus, but saw himself authoritative enough to put those who had known Him straight on what He was all about. You don't have to read much from Paul to get a sense of how ambitious and just crazy he was
@@faithpals Eye witness testimony sucks at the best of times. You don't even have that in 1 cor 15, just a crazy man making a lot of claims about what other people have seen. And himself, of course. Nothing to corroborate any of it
We know Josephus was inserted later in 12th century . It’s curious how the most important man in the world, who lives in one of the most dynamic places and times in history…..is not even remarked about in a very busy time.
I am an Orthodox Christian but why would outwardly a Jewish pharisee preaching for a few years and then done away with as a awkward nuisance by the Roman authorities and Jewish priestly leaders ,be mentioned massively in sources. ? Jews were being crucified all over the place . This outwardly ' nothing special to see, is part of the wonder.
The pharisees and sadducees. Another fun fact. The Sadducees only believed in the Torah, the 1st 5 books of the bible. The pharisees believe in the prophets like daniel, Jeremiah amd Isaiah. The Sadducees said hell no to jesus. The pharisees, like Nicodemus, many of them questioned if Jesus was the christ
@@jkb2819 no, i dont think so, it came to Rome in the rule of Titus or Dominican I forget which, it's engraved on the arch of Titus. I know it goes into the pax Romana, it's engraved somewhere there too. Then at some stage and I'm guessing after 450ad it's moved to Saint Peter's made of wood, then that burns down and it's lost in apostrophes. So the Roman's only had it for perhaps 250 years. I'm counting the Vatican as a separate country from the Roman state. I'm fairly sure of my facts, I've often wondered if the ark of the covenant isn't in the nave of st Peter's, nice gold altar they have there.
@@jkb2819 there's also the story of the sang graal which is what you get from later versions of the apostles texts, those less accurate, and there is the story of the coptic Africans but I don't believe that either.
Where are you getting this from if you don’t mind me asking? The standard account is the Ark goes missing during the Babylonian invasion, by the time Pompeii takes the temple in the 1st century BC he goes past the curtain and finds a stone with nothing on it. Never heard anything about it being brought back by Trajan or whoever.
@@jkb2819 One of the points of the curtain ripping after Jesus's death was to show the under-priests that the Ark was no longer there. Before then only the high priest could go in and see the Most Holy.
Paul's epistles, written by a known author, include limited bio details on Jesus. These should come before the gospels. Secondly, Acts is a continuation of Luke, but if they author knew of the temple destruction then for me it strains credibility that it would not have been used as a polemical point.
Of the sources and historicity...no mention of Luke, John Mark, John, Levi (Matthew)? Written between 15 and 25 years after the life of Yeshua, by men who lived with Him (John, Levi)...?
If you sre compsring the lord to a human, only Buddhs comes close. He seems to have reached a level of enlightenment that Christ could recognize and appreciate.
To separate the divine from the Mortal is strange in the ancient world, but not strange for Hebrews who see God as having no mortal sin or traits that mortals would share until Jesus.
@FireflyOnTheMoon Funny that those who believe in a source of creation never really bother pointing out that atheists are religous in their dogmatic pursuit of their god of emptiness. Probably because it's sad to dwell on and rude even if that rudeness is never avoided coming the other way.
the strongest argument for jesus is that he did influence a great number of people within his lifetime, which allowed the tribe of christians to grow very fast, and become well established within a generation. waiting for some one to apply AI to the jesus problem
Judians, are from the tribe of Judah. Jews are from Jacob, Judahs father. After assyria took over the other 10 tribes, only the tribes of benjamin and judah were chillin. The lived in jerusalem anf surrounding terrotories
The funny thing is that Judas doffs Jesus's in......everyone knew Jesus's and therefore most definitely knew where he lived as would the Romans. It makes no sense in the story.
I have read in several sources that the name "Jesus" is a transliteration of the actual name belonging to this person. His true name being Yeshua, translated into English as Joshua. This transliteration occurring in the printing of the 2nd or 3rd version of the King James bible. If so this is extremely odd for no transliteration was necessary, nore seen anywhere else
I find it fascinating that an entire podcast can slip through about Columbus without ever mentioning that Columbus didn’t publish his own journals, was dead almost 10 years prior to their release, and that they were translated (edited) into English in 1827 as a propaganda tool with whole sections removed & whole paragraphs added & everyone accepts this version as fact. But we have to tip toe around Christianity because of some butthurt empiricists who seem to think nothing could possibly exist outside of their own ego.
This is a sloppy episode. They mention Josephus as the only credible historical resource, which is true, and then just kind of glance over how the entire passage is clearly interpolated at best, straight up made up at worst, as if that’s not a problem. (which is what all historicists do) Meanwhile, any child or idiot can see the emperor has no clothes. The fact is that Mythicism better explains the evidence. We will never know for sure, but all actual evidence plainly points to the character of Jesus only existing in the imagination of Paul and others like him, no different to Sol Invictus, Dionysus, Osiris or any number of other divine beings. And it’s not like they weren’t very open about that - they make it very clear they knew him from revelation, not as a man who actually existed in the real world.
Yes. Jews are judean. Abraham , Isaac and Jacob. Jacob had 12 sons. Dan was naughty and got disenherited, and Joseph was removed too, so his two sons Ephraim and Manassas got the blessings. But out of the 12 tribes of israel, only 1 or 2 are really considered jews. Jews, from Judea, from the tribe of Judah. Judea is the land of Judah. Benjamin may be considered too, cause 10 tribes were lost, but Benjamin and Judah stayed around. The massive kingdom of israel only lasted for a few generations, before it split into 2, north and south
I don't know guys this seems like trying to prove Spider-Man was real because a thousand years in the future someone finds a Spider-Man comic book and knows from history New York existed.
@@jkb2819 as I said 1,000 years in the future, not currently. The larger the span of time the more Superstition and speculation become factors. An understanding of the history of Jerusalem being in a time of turmoil, isn't substantiation that that turmoil comes from Jesus. That's just speculation. The first hand accounts of Jesus Through The Gospel is it retroactive attempt for substantiation. Taking the Bible as a history book is a logistical fallacy. It may talk of real places, but those places doesn't substantiate the supernatural things the Bible talks about. That is to say in a thousand years when we find a Spider-Man comic book and can substantiate that New York was real, but it isn't proof that Spider-Man was a deity of New York.
@@toptester301 But nobody is claiming that Jesus existed because Judea and Galilee existed. They think he existed because a load of people who were contemporaries of his or near contemporaries say he did. Which is as good as evidence as you get in history (minus finding the corpse, which obviously would be controversial in this case!) I think you are confusing this with a separate argument around Gospel authorship. If the writers are reflecting Jewish knowledge and concerns of the time, this is just generally interesting for understanding why Jesus is portrayed the way he is and why he is revered, irrespective of whether he existed, or was the son of God or whatever. Of course apologists also find it interesting because it casts doubt on the idea that Jesus was invented or exaggerated by people far away in time or by distance. However the existence of Jesus as a basic historical fact does not depend exclusively or even primarily on the Gospel narrative being set in a real life location.
If people believe in Spider Man at some point, then it is a religion, not a comic book, for as long as people believe in it literally (not as mere poetry). People today believe in Marxism and Karl Marx, who promises believers a Heaven on Earth. Deity or not, that is a religion, and will continue on till the last day a literal believer can be found. In GB, Jedi is a legal religion.
Not really, they used Alexander the Great as an example. Any sources talking about him are written long after his life, yet nobody questions his existence.
Isn't the difference that people /nations "believed" in Allah because they knew that they'd have their heads chopped off if they didn't, as opposed to Christians believing in Christ, despite knowing that they would would be executed for doing so? A considerable difference!
The Gospels are unlikely to be written after AD 70, because the Temple is everywhere assumed to be standing. See John A. T. Robinson on the dating of the New Testament.
If you read Paul's letters carefully you will find that Jesus is Paul's alter ego, nothing more and nothing less. If you compare what is written in Paul's letters to the Corinthians with the gospel of Matthew you will find a strange correspondence. It's almost as if someone has put into the mouth of Jesus the teachings and words of Paul!
"The Christians are respectful and loving." Lol. The historical record is not on your side. It's hard to argue love when you have so many centuries of genocide under your belt.
Yeah, christians reputation for being respectful and loving really precedes them 🙄 that’s why they care so much more about judging the personal lives of others, up to and including imposing laws controlling them, than they do about setting their own selves right with their god
None of the "proof" for anyone named Jesus holds any water. The entry in Josephus that is commonly cited was added by someone who was a religious fanatic (a fact that is generally accepted by scholars today). And the Gospels are not history. The earliest was written at least 50 years after the years when "Jesus" would have lived - when people back then usually lived 30-40 years. The names of each Gospel book were assigned much much later with no evidence that they were written by that person. The four books contradict each other. "Matthew" is based on "Mark", and "Luke" is a revision of "Matthew"/"Mark". There is evidence that multiple authors had their hand in what is called John. Reply
It's an error to say Jesus is in the Qur'an, Tom. A character called Isa, who is purportedly a Muslim prophet is in the Qur'an - he is the Muslim Jesus, not the Jesus Christ of the New Testament, which is the only Holy Book where he can be found.
Hey Tom, you have a tendency when reading passages from historical sources, to read them entirely too quickly to be discernable, which tends to communicate to listeners that the source is not to be believed or bothered with, which I doubt is your intention. Slow down, son! You stutter and babble quite a lot as it is, which I chalk up to your passion about the topic you are discussing. But, it doesn't serve you or listeners well to rush on top of your natural speech impediments. Indeed, sometimes I am forced to change the playback speed setting just to make out what is being said. That is asking quite a lot of your audience, I'm sure you would agree.
No! The guy who barely hides his contempt when speaking of Christians isnt Christian? Say it aint so. Its ok. We"re used to it and luckily Christ was chill so free will is important.
I'm an academic historian who enjoys your podcast, but I'll have to push back here. There is not a range of scholarly option about dating and authorship of the gospels that includes the notion that they are eyewitness accounts. Only conservative Christians believe that. It is not an evidence-based viewpoint
@@marxussy yes because its ridiculous to believe something just because others believe it. There are people who believe vampires are real, but that doesn't make it true.
Say rather that something happened that caused people to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. What that something was I do not know. Neither do I think that there is enough evidence to establish what that was using scholarly methods. It comes down to faith or it's absence.
2:58 nope! Not both faith, one is faith the other is evidence based. The strength or vehemence of a belief does not make it faith. Some atheists so strongly hold their belief that god isn’t real that they too refuse to acknowledge any counter argument. But that too is not faith, it’s ignorance. Not both faith
It's interesting how different the definition of faith is in the Bible from what people assume faith is. Hebrews 11:1 (if you want to know where this is coming from) calls faith the evident demonstration (or convincing evidence) of realities not seen. Byington's translation uses "putting unseen things to the test", American Standard version "a conviction of things not seen." KJ says"the evidence of things not seen" The actual Greek word has a meaning similar to "title deed." as in you have something in hand which is reasonable proof of something you can't see yet. Blind faith is credulity which is quite a bit different. Someone saying "You've just got to believe" (without knowledge) does not know the book they think they are espousing. To give an example, imagine walking along a beach in the southeast US. The weather is perfectly sunny, not a cloud in the sky and the breeze is light. A small boy is running along the beach yelling out random stuff and at one point he says "A hurricane is coming" and then he continues on his way. There's really no reason for believing that a storm is coming. The witness is unreliable and there's no evidence given. You go inside and turn on the news and the weatherman is on. What he says you place greater faith in because what he says is backed up by both the position that he is in, his record of accurate reporting and the evidence that he places with reports of weather and wind patterns. If he were to say that a hurricane was coming in a few days you would take action now. That verse and the Bible as a whole is telling you to read, research and examine evidence thoughtfully.
@@johnbenson4672 Old people ;-) ... but their living wisdom is best. Ask before they pass beyond the veil. Per Fahrenheit 451, each life is an open book, and we are the author.
@@johnbenson4672 I wasn’t quoting the bibles definition. I was referring to the definition in English, and in practice. Faith is the preservation of belief in spite of a lack of evidence or evidence to the contrary. That’s what it means, no matter what some primitive desert peasant described it as two Millenia ago… IF that isn’t just a lie too
Fantastic episode for both Christians and Atheists alike, big fan of this one!
Fascinating podcast, gents!
Thank you very much... ☝️😎
I enjoyed that. Very balanced and informative.
I'm half way through episode 1 and i have a question.... is there any mention of Brian?
I love this podcast.
love this channel, great content and womderfully prepared. I've also just been told that Tom is my neighbour and I dont meet many people who share my obsession with these kinds of questions so that's good. Great stuff guys, keep it up!
We know a huge amount about Cleopatra, because of her involvement with two extremely important Roman individuals. This information comes to us through Roman writings, we know about her times
when she is involved with these two individuals but nothing or very little from other sources. Yet the total amount of information known her is tiny in comparison with the supposed information regarding Jesus. None of the information written about Jesus is contemporary and it is extremely important to understand that they are written in the third person. So despite their names, Mark, Matthew, Luke and John they weren't written by anybody with those names, writing about their experiences. Not to mention the apostles were supposed to be illiterate
Timothy McGrew has an entairtaing and insightful talk on Are the Gospels and Acts reliable historical documents?
Maravilloso. Acá en Atacama los escucho con gran placer
Thank you gentlemen from an old irredeemably collapsed catholic
Excellent
@38:00, yes! And if these guys over here are Hellenist last week and now this week Romanish, then of course there seems to be a question of identity and authenticity?
Please correct me if I misunderstand, but according to Tom Holland, Rome wasn't even collecting taxes from Galilee? Then all of the films, books and TV shows we've seen where tax collectors (like Matthew supposedly was before following Jesus) are wrong? Or is it just that the tax collectors in Galilee (including Capernaum, where Jesus spent most of his time) were collecting for Herod Antipas, and not for Caesar? If this is true, then the TV series "The Chosen" (which supposedly uses historical consultants to get the period right) is totally wrong, and people have had the wrong idea for decades if not centuries. Would appreciate if someone would clear this up for me. Thanks.
I’m not sure where Tom got this information. But Publicans (tax collectors among various other titles & job descriptions depending on need) existed all over the Roman Empire at this time. And yes, eventually percentages of all taxes went back to Rome through both direct, indirect, farm & additional Jewish taxation. Some people mistake this because in theory Rome was not supposed to be taxing it’s satellite states. In practice, the Roman system of taxation was extremely corrupt & often extended into regions it had not technically annexed. This includes conducting a census leading up to an annexation. This happened in many regions that were helpless against the expansion of Rome, including Galilee. There was also an entire industry of fake tax collectors running around the outskirts of the empire conducting censuses & collecting taxes that Roman officials had no ability to police. A villager or farmer in Galilee might not know they’d been tricked for months, years or possibly ever.
During the time of Jesus, Galilee was an independent client kingdom under Herod Antipas. Judea was a Roman province. Galilee was not. During the time of Jesus taxes were definitely collected in Galilee but they were collected by Antipas, not by Rome.
As it pertains to the census: Herod the Great died in 4 BCE. Herod was a client king, which means he ruled independently of Rome and paid them a tribute. Rome did not conduct censuses or collect taxes. After Herod died, his kingdom was divided between three of his sons. A son named Archeleaus got the biggest part, Judea, which included Jerusalem and the Temple. Antipas got Galilee and Perea. Antipas is the "Herod" who killed John the Baptist and wants to see Jesus do magic tricks in the Gospel. The third part, East of the Jordan went to Philip, who is mentioned in the Gospels when Jesus flees to his territory to escape from Antipas. Archaelaus turned out to be so brutal and incompetent that after ten years an embassy of Judeans went to Augustus in Rome and asked him to make them a Roman province and get rid of Archelaus (this was not unusual. A lot of populations preferred the stability of Roman rule to tyrannical local kings. Freedom wasn't really a thing. you were going to be subject to someone. You might as well get the best deal). Augustus gave them what they wanted. Archelaus was removed, Judea was annexed as a part of the Syrian province and a governor was appointed to conduct the first Roman census of Judea in 6-7 CE. This census was conducted in Judea and only Judea. Galilee was still a client kingdom not subject to census or tax by ROME. That doesn't mean they weren't taxed by Antipas.
@@lutherandross3165 Galilee was not a Roman province during the time of Jesus. Judea was, Galilee was an independent client kingdom under Herod Antipas, not subject to Roman censuses or taxes. The tax collectors in Galilee worked for Antipas, not Rome.
@@Ken_Scaletta Thanks for this, Ken. You've confirmed what historian Tom Holland says. So in "The Chosen," when we see Matthew in his tax collection booth in Capernaum (Galilee) guarded by a Roman soldier, that is wrong. If he was guarded, it would have been one of Herod Antipas's soldiers, not a Roman. Thanks again.
@@mindfulskills That is correct. There were no Roman troops in Galilee during the time of Jesus. the Herods had their own soldiers and tax collectors. Antipas was rapacious. Fishers on the Sea of Galilee (which is really a lake, not a sea) were not just free to fish the lake and keep or sell what they caught. The lake was literally the private property of Antipas. Fishers had to pay a fee to fish on the lake, then had to pay a percentage of what they caught in Capernaum, then had to pay a toll to take it and sell it in Magdal (which was a major fish processing city just south of Capernaum. Most of what was caight in the lake was processed into garum - a ubiquitous ancient fish sauce). Then got taxed on what they sold as well. By the time they were done getting taxed, they had just enough to survive on. It was a hand to mouth existence. Tax collectors were despised no matter who they worked for.
Thank you for this episode. The ‘brother of Christ’ reference in Josephus is also disputed as chief priests were apparently also called Christ (as they were anointed) and the passage which contains it is all about a succession crisis concerning high priests. I thought the gospel of Mark is usually dated in the 70s when the temple was destroyed as it is very focussed on temple references. The earliest Christian writings are the epistles of Paul and they are mainly strangely uninterested in the life of Jesus.
John the Baptist, Jesus of Nazareth, James the Just and Paul of Tarsus ... are radical figures. The work of the Holy Spirit works thru many people ... these people have short degrees of separation. What we do get eventually out of all the Anointing going on before and later, are three State organizations, one in Armenia, one in Ethiopia and one scattered thru the Roman Empire. All of which are radical events in history, compared to the previous 1000 years. It is reasonable to think that what develops into Islam came out of disparate Nestorian groups (the non-State Churches of the Near East onward thru Persia to India and China).
It's not strange that Paul doesn't delve into Jesus's biography. He was writing to people who were presumably already aware and convinced of the basic story. If I address a letter to, say, the organizer of basketball tournament, it isn't necessary for my letter to recount the historical development of basketball.
I love how, after about a minute, you say the name 'Jesus Christ' as if the plumber had just rung to say he wouldn't be coming to fix your leak 'til tomorrow.
Jesus was a carpenter. And he came to serve mankind. So, in many ways, Jesus represents the perfect best of what we can all aspire to.
@@richardhildebrand104 get a grip
Oh boy !
History is relevant because it isn't past, but alive in the present. It is wrong to think history is discontinuity. Modernity and Enlightenment are taught as discontinuity as revolution. But human nature isn't greatly different thru the ages. In Eternity all time is one.
Big topic, and for once I have extensive knowledge. Let's see ...
Oh dear... Not much 'history' in the first 20 minutes.
On what basis (or under what religion) was John baptising people - including Jesus Christ?
Judaism but a more ancient form.
Essenes.
Fun fact. Bethleham is only 5 miles away from Jerusalem
Still trying to find out why and when the crucifix became the symbol of Christianity and when did a Jewish sect become a separate religion.
Around 33AD when the resurrection occurred.
I think the Cross wasn't a Christian symbol until after Constantine became Emperor in 4th century. The cross was a symbol of shame and still used for capital punishment until then often reserved for slaves and foreigners. Early Christian symbols were a fish, or a vine, Chi Rho (X and a P) Alpha/Omega or the good shepherd.
@@mikegalway4733That's not true, Christians have been using the sign of the cross since at least the very early 3rd century (and very likely quite a bit of time before that as well).
Jesus even tells his followers to pick up their cross.
Crucifixion was considered a shameful way to die, but that's the point, that's why sacrifice is meaningless, the most innocent man dies the most shameful death.
It was very interesting and revealing to know that the soldiers under Pontius Pilate were not Romans, as has always been supposed, but most likely Samaritans.
This finally explains a mystery I have always wondered about: Why would Roman soldiers beat Jesus so savagely, taunt him and make a crown of thorns for him? To them he would presumably have been just another Judean rebel, no different from any other.
However, if the soldiers were Samaritans, not Roman, and were therefore “Jew-ish” and hated the Judeans, this would explain why they would have mocked and savagely beaten Jesus. For them Jesus’s claim to be the Jewish Messiah would have inspired great ire, and this would also explain things like them drawing lots for his clothes etc. None of which I could ever imagine Roman soldiers doing.
This really adds useful context to the understanding of the Gospel accounts.
That bothered me as well. Not for the reasons that you give but because as far as I know all Roman soldiers in those days were not equipped with the hasta but the pilum. I doubt that a Roman on guard duty would be equipped with either. the "Roman" soldier supposedly pierces Jesus with a spear.
It's a storybook. Why are you taking all this literally?
If the Roman auxiliaries were principally Samaritans, how did Pilate fall into the massacre at Mt. Gerizim (the “Temple Mount” of the Samaritans) that caused his removal from office, and recall to Rome?
Being Roman wasn't a racial / ethnic thing, it was a political /national identity, citizenship like today, if a Samaritan moved to the USA and became a citizen
One of the major sects mentioned by Josephus and Pliny the Elder were the Essenes. But there is no mention of them in the gospels or Paul's letters. Why is this?
Because he didn't care to mention it nothing more nothing less
Paul isn’t writing history, and perhaps Essenes were not very influential outside of the vicinity of Judea (a place where Paul wasn’t very active after his conversion). The gospels are biographies of Jesus, who apparently did not quarrel with the Essenes, or base his own teaching on their authority. He claimed his own authority, and didn’t rely on that or any other sect.
The zealots are mentioned and some think that zealots include the essenes who were a very small group.
@kumarg3598 some thinking that shows that some have never read Wars of the Jews and don't know what they are talking about.
He was a northerner. From Yorkshire lol. Brilliant.
Why is that brilliant?
I’m wondering, given that about half of Acts is written as a biography of St. Paul, but doesn’t end with his martyrdom, and given that Acts is presented as a continuation of the Gospel of Luke by the same author, is it skepticism, scholarship, or just open hostility to the Christian tradition that causes you to date the writing of Luke’s gospel to the end of the first century. If Luke wrote his gospel that late, why doesn’t he finish Acts with the end of Paul’s earthly life, or at least the end of his ministry? It seems implausible to date that gospel so late.
Are the only four sources for the crucifixion of JC not from forty years after the event?
Tom says John was written c100 -110 AD. Wasn't a fragment of John's Gospel found that has been dated to 80 AD?
That's a small phrase that could come from another work. Plus, radio carbon dating could be off.
Let's talk about Saul the pharisee who became Paul the apostle and wrote about the resurrection a mere 20 years after it took place. "I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received - that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day. (1 Cor. 15).
"according to the Scriptures". As this great podcast mentions often, things were said and done to conform with prophecy. Not denigrating Paul as a source, but he would certainly not be overlooking a chance to back up his story with a little history.
@@pattismithurs9023 Yes it's a great podcast, but what I hoped they would discuss is this question - What caused this jewish leader and pharisee to suddenly become a faithful follower of the dead messiah he had so fervently opposed? I believe the best explanation is what the New Testament gives witness to and the early church bears out, namely, that he saw the risen Lord Jesus Christ face to face on the road to Damascus.
Yes, the whole thing was Paul's invention, who never met Jesus, but saw himself authoritative enough to put those who had known Him straight on what He was all about. You don't have to read much from Paul to get a sense of how ambitious and just crazy he was
@@maddi62 two words - eyewitness testimony. read 1 cor. 15 - and also the book "jesus and the eyewitnesses" by richard bauckham.
@@faithpals Eye witness testimony sucks at the best of times. You don't even have that in 1 cor 15, just a crazy man making a lot of claims about what other people have seen. And himself, of course. Nothing to corroborate any of it
We know Josephus was inserted later in 12th century . It’s curious how the most important man in the world, who lives in one of the most dynamic places and times in history…..is not even remarked about in a very busy time.
I am an Orthodox Christian but why would outwardly a Jewish pharisee preaching for a few years and then done away with as a awkward nuisance by the Roman authorities and Jewish priestly leaders ,be mentioned massively in sources. ?
Jews were being crucified all over the place . This outwardly ' nothing special to see, is part of the wonder.
A 50 year old Joseph would have been perfectly fine walking to Egypt, specially in that time.
He was you prod ✝️🙏♾️
The pharisees and sadducees. Another fun fact. The Sadducees only believed in the Torah, the 1st 5 books of the bible. The pharisees believe in the prophets like daniel, Jeremiah amd Isaiah. The Sadducees said hell no to jesus. The pharisees, like Nicodemus, many of them questioned if Jesus was the christ
Didn't they put the ark of the covenant into the pax Romana and then later moved it to St Peter's in Vatican city where it was later 'lost'?
You must be thinking of something else. It was lost 1000’s of years before Saint Peters was built.
@@jkb2819 no, i dont think so, it came to Rome in the rule of Titus or Dominican I forget which, it's engraved on the arch of Titus. I know it goes into the pax Romana, it's engraved somewhere there too. Then at some stage and I'm guessing after 450ad it's moved to Saint Peter's made of wood, then that burns down and it's lost in apostrophes. So the Roman's only had it for perhaps 250 years. I'm counting the Vatican as a separate country from the Roman state. I'm fairly sure of my facts, I've often wondered if the ark of the covenant isn't in the nave of st Peter's, nice gold altar they have there.
@@jkb2819 there's also the story of the sang graal which is what you get from later versions of the apostles texts, those less accurate, and there is the story of the coptic Africans but I don't believe that either.
Where are you getting this from if you don’t mind me asking? The standard account is the Ark goes missing during the Babylonian invasion, by the time Pompeii takes the temple in the 1st century BC he goes past the curtain and finds a stone with nothing on it. Never heard anything about it being brought back by Trajan or whoever.
@@jkb2819 One of the points of the curtain ripping after Jesus's death was to show the under-priests that the Ark was no longer there. Before then only the high priest could go in and see the Most Holy.
I was at 'his' grave in Srinigar. I'm a pagan but I believe that's him in Kashmir
You (we) are not pagans assuming you are an indian hindu.
I would love to know what's buried there.
Paul's epistles, written by a known author, include limited bio details on Jesus. These should come before the gospels. Secondly, Acts is a continuation of Luke, but if they author knew of the temple destruction then for me it strains credibility that it would not have been used as a polemical point.
Of the sources and historicity...no mention of Luke, John Mark, John, Levi (Matthew)? Written between 15 and 25 years after the life of Yeshua, by men who lived with Him (John, Levi)...?
Was Jesus a common name in the Jewish world at that time ? Were there many people named Jesus at that time ?
Yes, it was a very common name. His name was Y'shua, it derives from Joshua meaning God is saviour.
@19:15 lol it's Ann-uh- nigh-ness .
Or Anna-nye-nus
I'm curious as to Tom's conclusion that Jesus sees _all_ Graeco-Roman cities as a "scam" just because the Temple in Jerusalem upset him.
If you sre compsring the lord to a human, only Buddhs comes close. He seems to have reached a level of enlightenment that Christ could recognize and appreciate.
To separate the divine from the Mortal is strange in the ancient world, but not strange for Hebrews who see God as having no mortal sin or traits that mortals would share until Jesus.
fairytales
@FireflyOnTheMoon Funny that those who believe in a source of creation never really bother pointing out that atheists are religous in their dogmatic pursuit of their god of emptiness. Probably because it's sad to dwell on and rude even if that rudeness is never avoided coming the other way.
the strongest argument for jesus is that he did influence a great number of people within his lifetime, which allowed the tribe of christians to grow very fast, and become well established within a generation. waiting for some one to apply AI to the jesus problem
Judians, are from the tribe of Judah. Jews are from Jacob, Judahs father. After assyria took over the other 10 tribes, only the tribes of benjamin and judah were chillin. The lived in jerusalem anf surrounding terrotories
The funny thing is that Judas doffs Jesus's in......everyone knew Jesus's and therefore most definitely knew where he lived as would the Romans.
It makes no sense in the story.
I have read in several sources that the name "Jesus" is a transliteration of the actual name belonging to this person. His true name being Yeshua, translated into English as Joshua. This transliteration occurring in the printing of the 2nd or 3rd version of the King James bible. If so this is extremely odd for no transliteration was necessary, nore seen anywhere else
I find it fascinating that an entire podcast can slip through about Columbus without ever mentioning that Columbus didn’t publish his own journals, was dead almost 10 years prior to their release, and that they were translated (edited) into English in 1827 as a propaganda tool with whole sections removed & whole paragraphs added & everyone accepts this version as fact. But we have to tip toe around Christianity because of some butthurt empiricists who seem to think nothing could possibly exist outside of their own ego.
This is a sloppy episode. They mention Josephus as the only credible historical resource, which is true, and then just kind of glance over how the entire passage is clearly interpolated at best, straight up made up at worst, as if that’s not a problem. (which is what all historicists do) Meanwhile, any child or idiot can see the emperor has no clothes. The fact is that Mythicism better explains the evidence. We will never know for sure, but all actual evidence plainly points to the character of Jesus only existing in the imagination of Paul and others like him, no different to Sol Invictus, Dionysus, Osiris or any number of other divine beings. And it’s not like they weren’t very open about that - they make it very clear they knew him from revelation, not as a man who actually existed in the real world.
Yes. Jews are judean. Abraham , Isaac and Jacob. Jacob had 12 sons. Dan was naughty and got disenherited, and Joseph was removed too, so his two sons Ephraim and Manassas got the blessings. But out of the 12 tribes of israel, only 1 or 2 are really considered jews. Jews, from Judea, from the tribe of Judah. Judea is the land of Judah. Benjamin may be considered too, cause 10 tribes were lost, but Benjamin and Judah stayed around. The massive kingdom of israel only lasted for a few generations, before it split into 2, north and south
So Jesus influences martin luther to topple statues by denouncing statues.
I don't know guys this seems like trying to prove Spider-Man was real because a thousand years in the future someone finds a Spider-Man comic book and knows from history New York existed.
Is it really though? Any contemporary historians of New York out there casually talking about Peter Parker as if he was an actual person?
@@jkb2819 as I said 1,000 years in the future, not currently. The larger the span of time the more Superstition and speculation become factors. An understanding of the history of Jerusalem being in a time of turmoil, isn't substantiation that that turmoil comes from Jesus. That's just speculation. The first hand accounts of Jesus Through The Gospel is it retroactive attempt for substantiation. Taking the Bible as a history book is a logistical fallacy. It may talk of real places, but those places doesn't substantiate the supernatural things the Bible talks about. That is to say in a thousand years when we find a Spider-Man comic book and can substantiate that New York was real, but it isn't proof that Spider-Man was a deity of New York.
@@toptester301 But nobody is claiming that Jesus existed because Judea and Galilee existed. They think he existed because a load of people who were contemporaries of his or near contemporaries say he did. Which is as good as evidence as you get in history (minus finding the corpse, which obviously would be controversial in this case!)
I think you are confusing this with a separate argument around Gospel authorship. If the writers are reflecting Jewish knowledge and concerns of the time, this is just generally interesting for understanding why Jesus is portrayed the way he is and why he is revered, irrespective of whether he existed, or was the son of God or whatever. Of course apologists also find it interesting because it casts doubt on the idea that Jesus was invented or exaggerated by people far away in time or by distance. However the existence of Jesus as a basic historical fact does not depend exclusively or even primarily on the Gospel narrative being set in a real life location.
If people believe in Spider Man at some point, then it is a religion, not a comic book, for as long as people believe in it literally (not as mere poetry). People today believe in Marxism and Karl Marx, who promises believers a Heaven on Earth. Deity or not, that is a religion, and will continue on till the last day a literal believer can be found. In GB, Jedi is a legal religion.
Not really, they used Alexander the Great as an example. Any sources talking about him are written long after his life, yet nobody questions his existence.
We have no proof of many later figures. Why is jesus less historical?
The romans didnt doubt that they executed this man.
Not "Ananus" it's Ananias!!!
Isn't the difference that people /nations "believed" in Allah because they knew that they'd have their heads chopped off if they didn't, as opposed to Christians believing in Christ, despite knowing that they would would be executed for doing so? A considerable difference!
The Gospels are unlikely to be written after AD 70, because the Temple is everywhere assumed to be standing. See John A. T. Robinson on the dating of the New Testament.
Let's be honest: this story is only interesting if you find it unique. Otherwise it sounds like a rip off or a con job of fabulists. Do better.
If you read Paul's letters carefully you will find that Jesus is Paul's alter ego, nothing more and nothing less. If you compare what is written in Paul's letters to the Corinthians with the gospel of Matthew you will find a strange correspondence. It's almost as if someone has put into the mouth of Jesus the teachings and words of Paul!
The athiests in the comments are rude, ignorant, ill-informed and militant. The Christians are respectful and loving. I know which side I'm on...
"The Christians are respectful and loving." Lol. The historical record is not on your side. It's hard to argue love when you have so many centuries of genocide under your belt.
Yeah, christians reputation for being respectful and loving really precedes them 🙄 that’s why they care so much more about judging the personal lives of others, up to and including imposing laws controlling them, than they do about setting their own selves right with their god
II Kings 17: 24-41 explains the development of the Samaritans after the invasion of the north by Assyria.
Wow! You mean there was someone to ring in Biblical times if you were thinking of topping yourself?
None of the "proof" for anyone named Jesus holds any water. The entry in Josephus that is commonly cited was added by someone who was a religious fanatic (a fact that is generally accepted by scholars today). And the Gospels are not history. The earliest was written at least 50 years after the years when "Jesus" would have lived - when people back then usually lived 30-40 years. The names of each Gospel book were assigned much much later with no evidence that they were written by that person. The four books contradict each other. "Matthew" is based on "Mark", and "Luke" is a revision of "Matthew"/"Mark". There is evidence that multiple authors had their hand in what is called John.
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It's an error to say Jesus is in the Qur'an, Tom. A character called Isa, who is purportedly a Muslim prophet is in the Qur'an - he is the Muslim Jesus, not the Jesus Christ of the New Testament, which is the only Holy Book where he can be found.
Richard Bauckham, "Jesus and the Eyewitnesses"
I don't believe it.
The Sanhedrin had 72 members and was the ruling council of the Jews.
Ask any Jew what they think of joesefis
Ananus was such an A-hole😂
They will tell you he's a traitor
Hey Tom, you have a tendency when reading passages from historical sources, to read them entirely too quickly to be discernable, which tends to communicate to listeners that the source is not to be believed or bothered with, which I doubt is your intention. Slow down, son! You stutter and babble quite a lot as it is, which I chalk up to your passion about the topic you are discussing. But, it doesn't serve you or listeners well to rush on top of your natural speech impediments. Indeed, sometimes I am forced to change the playback speed setting just to make out what is being said. That is asking quite a lot of your audience, I'm sure you would agree.
Have you heard about the theory that the Romans made up Jesus and Julius Ceasar was the man they based Jesus after
No! The guy who barely hides his contempt when speaking of Christians isnt Christian? Say it aint so.
Its ok. We"re used to it and luckily Christ was chill so free will is important.
Jesus and eleven of the disciples were from Galilee. Judas was from Judea.
I'm an academic historian who enjoys your podcast, but I'll have to push back here. There is not a range of scholarly option about dating and authorship of the gospels that includes the notion that they are eyewitness accounts. Only conservative Christians believe that. It is not an evidence-based viewpoint
Jesus christ is as much a mystery as count dracula is. We should be skeptical of the claims pertaining to both.
There is a big difference. There are sources mentioning Jesus outside of these that believed in him as a God.
@@marxussy there is no difference. Both are characters from a book with magic powers.
@@adriangeh6414 yeah, that is true(in a way), but I just told you the difference which you completely ignored.
@@marxussy yes because its ridiculous to believe something just because others believe it. There are people who believe vampires are real, but that doesn't make it true.
@@adriangeh6414 I'm not talking about believing in Jesus' divine nature, I'm talking about his existence.
Not a page of the New Testament would have been written if Christ did not rise from the dead.
I don't know man, that seems like a stretch. Thousand of books are written daily about people who never existed.
Say rather that something happened that caused people to believe that Jesus rose from the dead. What that something was I do not know. Neither do I think that there is enough evidence to establish what that was using scholarly methods. It comes down to faith or it's absence.
Ana-nias (?) Ana-nye-as.
Islam- a great tradition? Spare me.
2:58 nope!
Not both faith, one is faith the other is evidence based.
The strength or vehemence of a belief does not make it faith.
Some atheists so strongly hold their belief that god isn’t real that they too refuse to acknowledge any counter argument.
But that too is not faith, it’s ignorance.
Not both faith
It's interesting how different the definition of faith is in the Bible from what people assume faith is. Hebrews 11:1 (if you want to know where this is coming from) calls faith the evident demonstration (or convincing evidence) of realities not seen. Byington's translation uses "putting unseen things to the test", American Standard version "a conviction of things not seen." KJ says"the evidence of things not seen" The actual Greek word has a meaning similar to "title deed." as in you have something in hand which is reasonable proof of something you can't see yet.
Blind faith is credulity which is quite a bit different. Someone saying "You've just got to believe" (without knowledge) does not know the book they think they are espousing.
To give an example, imagine walking along a beach in the southeast US. The weather is perfectly sunny, not a cloud in the sky and the breeze is light. A small boy is running along the beach yelling out random stuff and at one point he says "A hurricane is coming" and then he continues on his way. There's really no reason for believing that a storm is coming. The witness is unreliable and there's no evidence given.
You go inside and turn on the news and the weatherman is on. What he says you place greater faith in because what he says is backed up by both the position that he is in, his record of accurate reporting and the evidence that he places with reports of weather and wind patterns. If he were to say that a hurricane was coming in a few days you would take action now.
That verse and the Bible as a whole is telling you to read, research and examine evidence thoughtfully.
@@johnbenson4672 A living faith doesn't depend on old books, it depends on Holy Spirit in living people.
@@williambranch4283 Where do you get "old books"?
@@johnbenson4672 Old people ;-) ... but their living wisdom is best. Ask before they pass beyond the veil. Per Fahrenheit 451, each life is an open book, and we are the author.
@@johnbenson4672 I wasn’t quoting the bibles definition.
I was referring to the definition in English, and in practice.
Faith is the preservation of belief in spite of a lack of evidence or evidence to the contrary.
That’s what it means, no matter what some primitive desert peasant described it as two Millenia ago…
IF that isn’t just a lie too