“It gets really confusing because they keep reusing the same few names over and over again and you only get a number added if you’re king.” - err, Dom, as one Brit to another, we, uh, we don’t really have a leg to stand on there when it comes to monarchs. 😅
It was the gorilla war fear and better knowledge of the geography. As well the harsh desert that won the war. How ever i love the power move of just not fighting.
It was "sneaky, efficient guerrilla fighting someone rather than letting yourself get rekt in traditional open battle" actually. See also: the Vietnam War
A Song of Ice and Fire: Where George R.R. Martin asweres the most burning question of all: "What if English History involved a lot more Dragons and Incest?"
@@Ikajo Well...They're pretty much based on the Melniboeans of Moorcock 's Elric saga. And its implied in those stories that the connection to dragons is not necessarily metaphorical. Assuming Martin is going to lean into that I suspect that the Targaryens might not be fully human.
@@Ikajo Well to be fair, the targeryans still have stillbirths all the time (who are always these weird grotesque dragon hybrids.) and most of them end up with mental illnesses. So probably not really immune.
@@Mister-Thirteen In HOTD there were details that pointed to Targeryans having sex with Dragons. (Targeryans are truly the biggest degenerates in ASOIF.)
That Aegon and his sisters incest dance should not be nearly as funny as it is... 🤣 Thank you for that pinnacle of entertainment! I just can't stop laughing! 😂
My dad and I were watching house of the dragon and I actually made the comment that it was no wonder the Targaryens kept going mad. They kept using the same three names with slightly different variations. Trying to keep them all straight would drive anyone bonkers.
I'm glad you gave the Martell's credit but don't forget the Storm King's daughter was also tough as nails! After the battle she wanted to fortify the castle for a siege but she was betrayed by her advisors.
Also i think it was Rhaynese (can’t spell) and Maraxies who were there. They just couldn’t fly because of the weather. But the dragon broke up the center line of Durandon. Or something.
The worst part for me was they stripped Argella. Like okay betray your queen and chain her up but did they need to strip her naked? Humiliating. Gotta wonder how conflicted she felt when her enemy who killed her father was the only one to show her kindness.
Argella was definitely badass/headstrong, but she was a fool for continuing to fight when it was obvious she’d lose. She was exactly like her father in that respect.
Tough lmao She was literaly on suicide mission risking the lifes of her own people . If she resisted, Storm's End would be the new Harrenhal by the time Balerion and Aegon arrived there. It was a lost cause, contrary to the Martells and Dorne. Glad the people revolted there and didn't let her go along with that plan.
In the books the Targaryen kings are described as either being incredibly competent, or horrendously insane. Actually reading through their history I got the impression that some of the 'good' kings only got put in that group because they weren't a detriment to the Kingdom like their predecessor was (Aegon III). Or they were an impressive warrior that was good on a battlefield but meh when it came to court politics (Daeron I). But Jaehaerys? Jaehaerys really was one of the best kings they ever had. He stabilized the realm, created a unified body of law for the entire continent, and under his rule his family and their dragons reached their highest populations ever. Edit: a name I should have double checked before
In fairness I feel like most of the Post-Dance kings are being hard-carried by Visy II as their Hand, with only Baelor being the real bad egg of that trio. Like if succession had played out a bit better we’re talking about a second coming of Jaehaerys in decades long reform-centric rule. It’s almost like the Dance is entirely about how the nature of male-line primogeniture is inherently flawed and leaves those next in line feeling slighted when everyone in the room knows they’d do a better job than their sibling. Hm where have we seen this before… I suppose it’s a point in favor of Viserys that he *didn’t* make the mistakes of the last generation in seeking retribution for the slight, so something was learned in the end, I guess.
And though it seems everyone was against him marrying his sister, from your description it seems their marriage was successful, except for all but 2 of their children dying before them and neither of the surviving children being suitable for succession (though the only problem with the princess appears to be her sex drive, but she probably wasn't allowed to inherit by the patriarchy anyway). Too bad Jaehaerys couldn't do something about the damn succession crisis that would follow him. Or maybe accepting that though his marriage worked for him and his queen, incest should be discouraged if you want the family line to survive. Okay after reading the parts about Jaehaerys' reign and the lives of his children, Seara definitely didn't deserve to have any real power in Westeros. She was selfish and cruel to those weaker than her. I have to agree that Jaehaerys and Alysanne had a very good marriage, working partnership, and an excellent reign. It really is sad how things went up shit's creek within 2 generations after them.
The names repeating is one of the aspects of worldbuilding I like most from ASOIAF, because it mirror our reality so closely. Not only for the kings, but for the average person. It's an often overlooked fact of life in fantasy in particular, but all kinds of storytelling really.
Yeah, Wheel of Time for example commits pretty heavily to no repeating names, ends up with side characters whose name only differ by a letter or so. But in real life names are nothing like that. I am sure everyone has met people with identical names in their daily lifes. And it is especially true for nobles, which most of the characters in ASOIAF are.
Considering Aegon's Conquest was at least partly motivated by the prophecy of the Long Night, you have to wonder if that didn't play a role in Torrhen's decision to not fight Aegon. There are some hints in the books that Starks had access to some funky First Men sorcery that could've allowed them to kill the dragons, but they didn't use it, probably because of the whole prophecy business.
You also have to wonder if the prophecy might also have justified the incest to those who perpetuated it, even after the Targaryens converted to the Faith of the Seven.
@@matthewhearn9910 Well, at the very least, before the Dance, they needed the incest to keep control of their dragons (and power). That alone I think justified it for them.
@@thevikingbear2343 One generation without incest is apparently fine, it's just that if they marry into other houses consistently enough, at some point they have too little Valyrian blood and can't ride dragons, apparently. Look, I don't know. I am not a fan of this magic system either.
@@tereziamarkova2822 Out marriages would have rapidly spread the dragon - rider gene which would have endangered the realm. You can see this happening in the show where House Velaryon have now become dragon riders thanks to the marriage between Corlys and Rhaenys. It would have been better to avoid this by allowing Rhaenys to take the throne.
Stark fun fact: the whole 'King-who-knelt-rather-than-lead-his-people-into-a-suicidal-war' story is take wholesale from German history. The real-life aquivalent of Aegon was none other than Charlemagne, and it wasn't a king who knelt, but rather a duke/chieftain by the name of Widukind. Charlemagne was a Christian, Widukind and the other Saxons still worshipped the Old (Germanic) Gods at the time, sacred trees played an important role in their faith. Widukind asked Charlemagne to be his godfather, which was stragically very smart. The name Widuking btw translates from Old German as literally 'the forest's child' and was an old term for 'wolf'.
OT trivia: Dr. Widukind Lenz was the German doctor who discovered that thalidomide was behind the epidemic of birth defects in post-WWII West Germany. Okay, technically the first one to connect the dots was Australian obstetrician William MacBride, but MacBride was trying to prove his hypothesis was true before raising the alarm, so Widukind Lenz was the first to sound the warning which pressured Chemie Gruenenthal to take the drug off the market.
@@astrinymris9953 True! It was horrible that he was disbelieved and silenced at first, but thankfully his warning was heeded eventually. Indeed, the name Widukind is still, albeit very rarely, used as a first name. It is also more commonly a family name, sometimes slightly alternated, e.g. Wittekind.
I would say that there are only two things worth mentioning that were omitted here. First was when Baratheon marched to Storm's End after beating the army he was presented with his future wife, naked and bound as a gift so he would not kill everyone. The other was how Aegon was almost killed by assassins but his sister saved him and he decided to create the Kingsguard.
Baratheon also treated his future wife with respect and when they married he took every symbol her family had except the name so It could have been way worse, that's something
I was glad Baratheon treated his wife with respect, covering her with his own cloak, unchaining her and giving her food and drink and telling her how brave her father was in battle. I like to think they had a happy marriage after that.
I’d also add that when Maegor took the crown he got into a 7v7 scuffle with those opposing his claim, came out the only survivor but was in a coma for a whole month before a mysterious lady from Essos showed up and maybe did some blood magic to wake him back up.
One of the funnest things to do was after HotD ended to look at the back of my old copy of GoT and look at the appendix. It lists all the Kings and it was fun to think how the hell it went from Aegon to the next listed King.
I do look forward to Cregan Stark marching in, smacking everyone down for F'ing up the country, stabilizing the place, and then just marching back North.
More like showing up looking for loot, almost destroying the kingdoms that hadnt burned in the war, acting like he was better than anyone by seeking justice for Aegon II and abandoning all when he was bribed with a new young wife
@@cattievogelsong96 the blacks had won even before Aegon II died, they had beaten his last army and all he had was Rhaenyra's son as a hostage but all his men knew that he was done, that's why there was a plot to kill him, at that point a peaceful transition was the best and Cregan almost ruined It all
I think there is a huge audience for this kind of thing and you did a very good job so if you feel like getting a wild hair and doing this again don't feel too weird
Once my history teacher said that if a Ptolomeu had to choose between world peace and bangging his sister we would have war. Never thought I would see an literal case of this weird declaration
People of Westeros: Jaehaerys, we can now worship free, govern justly, and grow vast field of hemp for making rope and blankets Jaehaerys: yes and marrying our -cousins- sister People of Westeros: what are you talking about?! why would we want to marry our sisters? Jaehaerys: cause they're so attractive. I thought that was the whole point of me fixing everything.
After trying to do my own genealogy, I feel the same name frustrations so much. Kinda makes me want to shake my ancestors and yell 'stop calling all your kids william, Edward and Mary!'
I was trying to do my family tree and one side was bad about it (and sure enough there were knights and shit in that line), while the other had ONE instance of a man marrying his brother's window and Ancestry essentially told me to fuck off and wouldn't let me go any farther back with my paternal side.
I don't know about Jaehaerys being a feminist for his time, he listened to Alyssanes council, sure, but the way he behaved towards every single one of his daughters indicates a certain misogyny to him; + ending the rape practices was more of an Alyssane thing than anything, he would often pass over female family members in favour of males in the line of succession as he did first with his daughter Daenerys, then his grandaughter Rhaenys. Some people argue that a lot of this misogyny stems from the fact that he was a fourth child and had an older living sister; Queen Rhaena, who he loved but also had to undermine in order to legitimize his throne, because by primogeniture alone she would have been the rightful heir to the throne, still, calling him a feminist for listening to his wife's council feels wrong, as a matter of fact Aegon I also listened to his wives, and Maegor was known to listen to his mother and Tyanna, the only difference there being that Alyssane was a decent person unlike Tyanna.
If you think the Targaryen family tree is a hot mess and a bit of a nightmare to comprehend, take a look at the ptolemaic dynasty. Starting with Ptolemy I Soter, every man was named Ptolemy and for the women they cycled through like three or four names. Add to that their incest practices and you get a historian's nightmare. Because you have one "Ptolemy, son of Lagos" and way too many "Ptolemy, son of Ptolemy"s. Ancient dynastic names are fun like that... because here's the thing: ancient texts aren't too big on epithets and regnal numbers.
Well, it's a toss up between them & their fellow Daodaci (or, Heirs of Alexander- in layman's) the Seleucids- which the Ptolemies intermarried with at least once; if someone could straightforwardly explain their family wreaths- they'll just- they'll win the whole internet, in my book...
@@OcarinaSapphr- But the Seleucids at least used more than one name for their offspring, making it at least marginally easier to keep up with the who-is-who and who-is-whose and the who-is-what. But yes, the Diadochi are a bit of a mess (and made a bit of one too once the Argeads were gone). Which is exactly why I'm more than glad I don't have to deal with them in my bachelor thesis and can just focus on the Argeads and their numismatic iconography XD
Overly Sarcastic Productions did a great video about the Ptolemies. It's basically Blue losing his sanity and will to live trying to make sense of their family tree.
@@gozerthegozarian9500 sounds about right. To put it in the words of a fellow student in my bachelor seminar on foundation myths: "If your family tree starts forming triangles, you should maybe rethink some actions" XD
It’s honestly kind of funny seeing how much people freak out over the Targaryen incest, because as someone majoring in ancient history, royal incest happened ALL THE TIME! It helped keep all the power and wealth in the family, made sure no other dynasty’s had a claim to the throne via inheritance, and gave in to the whole divine bloodline thing ancient and medieval civilizations were really big on. I’ve just gotten extremely desensitized to it in media after seeing it EVERYWHERE in my classes lol
@@Isuream6331 Except Ancient Egypt of course, where every Pharaoh has at least one of his (often dozen of wives) be a sister or daughter of his. Like the famous Toutankhamon was the son of Akhenaton and his sister, and he married his own sister Ankhesenamon, who may have already wed and had a children with Akhenaton (their father, once again). It's no wonder Toutankhamon had so much health problems ^^'
@@krankarvolund7771 Yeah, my understanding of the inspiration behind House Targaryen was that it took heavily from the Ptolemys, who practiced brother sister marriages as a religious/social statement...but were also such massive sluts who constantly assassinated each other to put random cousins on the throne that they really weren't all that inbred
@@cam4636 True, the Lagides were a clusterfuck of incest, while the ancient Pharaohs could at least mitigate it with numerous wives, the Ptolemys were incestuous and monogame ^^'
RE the Targaryens all having similar names; I was listening to a podcast about Napoleon and it's basically the same thing with him and his family! Not so much with the incest, but a _LOT_ of people named Napoleon, or Bonaparte, or some combination of both
I feel like the Targaryen family tree is inspired by the Ptolemies (Ptolemys? Idk). They had three names that they just added numbers to and marriages to anyone more distantly related than a double first cousin were apparently anathema. Normally, you should have a total of 126 individual ancestors going back 6 generations to your 4x great grandparents. Poor Cleopatra had only 31 ancestors in that span, the majority of whom were named Cleopatra, Berenice, or Ptolemy. The Hapsburgs could only dream of being that inbred lol.
@@cockathiel5319 there is also the king of incest in the Ptolemaic dynasty, Ptolemy VIII who married his sister Cleopatra II then he married her daughter (whose father was his brother) and had children with both of them
13:11 Wait, did Dom just say "perma nocta"? Which, Google Translate informs me, is Latin for "last night" (though I have a sneaking suspicion that it's actually nonsense that Google doesn't know how to reject)... Prima nocta ("the first night") is the mythical medieval practice of feudal lords having the right to have sex with the bride - while there are records of the practice in antiquity, and there's no doubt that those with power used it to rape women throughout history (right down to the modern day), there are no recorded laws that allowed it.
I like this type of video. I doubt it would even happen, but I would love it if Dom did a video essay like this about any of the series written by David Eddings. It's unlikely any of the series will get a screen adaptation, and I think Dom's style would be perfect for talking about them.
"Well, we've got guerilla tactics and spam, projectile weapons and spam, spam, spam, home turf advantage and spam, and a fiercely independent, tough and resilient population with the skills to survive in desert environment and spam."
One of the reasons the Targaryen dynasty performed incest so much as it was deeply ingrained into their Valyrian culture and they had already changed so much to fit into Westerosi culture that they had very few traditions and customs from their native Valyria which was going extinct so for them give up those traditions even the incest was like a slap to the face like it would be like telling Native Americans to give up those last remaining fragments of their culture today
I think worth mentioning as well was all the issues Maegor had trying to make his own heirs, making Jaehaerys the default successor anyway. Maegor basically had at least three wives at a time throughout his reign, abducting new ones as his insanity grew. If I remember right the closest he ever got to a viable heir were some of those scaly dragon/fetus stillbirths that plague the line. Once Maegor kicked the bucket it was some of those forced wives that perpetrated that propaganda.
I think it's weird that the show subtlety hinted that the Targaryen and other Valyrian inbreeding was tied to the dragons they needed to maintain power. The show almost made it seem like dragons have a near impossible time hatching from their eggs with a Targaryen or Valyrian around them. Meaning that the incest isn't just about maintaining lines of inheritance something that I think most people can easily understand, while not liking it in the real world, but now there's the needed part of the Targaryens risking diluting the ability to ride dragons by marrying outside of Valrian families and potentially losing the dragons entirely or spreading that ability out to other families and risk even more war and rebellion with non Valyrian dragonriders.
That is quite the summery. I like your comments about the builder’s retirement package. I like the Order of the green hand’s take on the Sons of the Dragon. I don’t know if you have seen it.
I love this video and the "Incest dance" had me in stitches XD it explains SOOO much about the "Mad kings" of that line...inbreeding be like that. I guess our dragon fam was lucky that everyone was hot or else they'd end up like Habsburgs.
I kinda wonder if someday we'll get books or a seriesnof some kind showing us Valyria before the doom. Maybe moments like the Valyrians when they were shepherds and learning how to tame dragons with magic, the origin of dragons, the rise of the Freehold, Daenys's dream, and the eruption of the 14 flames.
@@campfire_cat what makes Valyria so special is that it is only talked about in terms of myth. Its magic comes from being a legend nobody knows the truth of. Pulling back the curtain and just telling everyone how it actually happened takes away the magic and makes an interesting fantasy realm to theorise about into just another lore page
@@greg_mca I think im seeing your point. It would kinda ruin the mystery surrounding the place. Would it be a similar case if they somehow showed as Asshai? Not saying that place would be the same as Valyria but it too is also kinda unknown.
Visenya intimidating the Arryns into submission feels so funny to me, because Visenya’s line would only produce one king before dying out, but the Arryns are ancestors of all the Targaryen kings from King Aegon III onward.
"No!" " - But that's how conquest works!" "Exactly!" " - What!?" "Well it's like you said: that's how conquest works" " - and?" "And we don't _want_ any conquest! So… … … …No!"
At around 2:00, Torrhen Stark knelt not only because of Harrenhal but also due to the Field of Fire and not wanting to join the King of the Rock and the Gardeners at "a farm upstate"
Prima Nokta outlawed by Targaryens is probably at least partly because it would involve a lot of sex that wasn't incest. Targaryens just cannot be part of that. Grosses them out.
I will mention it was the field of fire moreso than Harrenhal that made Torrhen kneel and it did happen after and not before, these granular details are easy to get mixed up, otherwise great vid!
I'm surprised you didn't mention that a huge factor in the incest was probably trying to maintain the ability to control dragons, something that Valarians could do, but no one else. It seems there must be a genetic component. The Targaryans could, and did, marry other Valarian refugees, but the population size was so small that sooner or later, they were all related anyway. Aside from the fact that Dragons were their greatest weapons, would you want dragons roaming the countryside with no one controlling them? Because that was the other option. So incest was both a power play, and the socially responsible choice.
5:21 fun fact the dornish city was hellholt and the family that shot the dragon down was called house Uller and there is a rumor that half of house Uller is half mad and the other half worse. LoL
“It gets really confusing because they keep reusing the same few names over and over again and you only get a number added if you’re king.” - err, Dom, as one Brit to another, we, uh, we don’t really have a leg to stand on there when it comes to monarchs. 😅
Everyone's a Mary, Margaret, Elizabeth, Henry, Richard, or George, those are the only names 😂
@@cordeliacullen2621 didn't you forget the newest one? Charles?
@@cordeliacullen2621 don’t forget Charles and Edward.
Sounds like late-game Crusader Kings...
At least its not as bad as prussia
The incest dance was so perfect and hilarious that I choked on the water I was drinking. Thank you of that gem.
Okay, I never knew that just "deciding not to fight someone" was just a valid option. Thanks, Grandma Martell!
It was the gorilla war fear and better knowledge of the geography. As well the harsh desert that won the war. How ever i love the power move of just not fighting.
Holy shit, there were gorillas involved? Give me that spin-off, HBO!
@@cattievogelsong96 To quote my favorite movie: "That's guerilla with a u, not an o."
It was "sneaky, efficient guerrilla fighting someone rather than letting yourself get rekt in traditional open battle" actually. See also: the Vietnam War
@@gozerthegozarian9500 cleaver most of the time. How ever that incident with the fool… that was cruel. Some of the Dornish are barbaric.
A Song of Ice and Fire: Where George R.R. Martin asweres the most burning question of all: "What if English History involved a lot more Dragons and Incest?"
And then fire emblem three houses(and to extend Fates) goes: you think that incest? Check this shit out *Rhea x byleth*
I think it is more pan European or at least British isles history. But i am here for the dragon and ice zombies and fantasy wolves.
I actually think Martin's version involves less incest
@@bichiAllen yeah. Royal and noble family trees are nuts! Real world.
Well...More dragons at least.
Ok, you just took the badass scene of Meria Martell and basically turned it into a Monty Python sketch…and I love it😂
Everyone: "Stop doing incest!"
Targaryens: "No."
I'm starting to wonder if Martin decided that the Targaryens are immune to the consequences of incest. It would explain a lot.
Everyone: "Stop doing incest!"
Jaehaerys: "I have a permission slip from the faith."
@@Ikajo Well...They're pretty much based on the Melniboeans of Moorcock 's Elric saga.
And its implied in those stories that the connection to dragons is not necessarily metaphorical. Assuming Martin is going to lean into that I suspect that the Targaryens might not be fully human.
@@Ikajo Well to be fair, the targeryans still have stillbirths all the time (who are always these weird grotesque dragon hybrids.) and most of them end up with mental illnesses. So probably not really immune.
@@Mister-Thirteen In HOTD there were details that pointed to Targeryans having sex with Dragons. (Targeryans are truly the biggest degenerates in ASOIF.)
One thing I’ve learned from GOT and HOTD, don’t mess with old women, there’s a reason they’ve survived this long, they’re got wiles.
OMG, I love your version of the confrontation between Rhaenys and Princess Meria Martell 🤣🤣
@@janoupetit9407 Dominic didn't have it in the budget
@Lionstar16 - big Monty Python vibes there in that voice acting. 😆
@@lordofuzkulak8308 Was just about to mention it
Yeees so cool
@@Lionstar16 Spent it all on the incest dance 😅
That Aegon and his sisters incest dance should not be nearly as funny as it is... 🤣 Thank you for that pinnacle of entertainment! I just can't stop laughing! 😂
My dad and I were watching house of the dragon and I actually made the comment that it was no wonder the Targaryens kept going mad. They kept using the same three names with slightly different variations. Trying to keep them all straight would drive anyone bonkers.
I'm glad you gave the Martell's credit but don't forget the Storm King's daughter was also tough as nails!
After the battle she wanted to fortify the castle for a siege but she was betrayed by her advisors.
Also i think it was Rhaynese (can’t spell) and Maraxies who were there. They just couldn’t fly because of the weather. But the dragon broke up the center line of Durandon. Or something.
The worst part for me was they stripped Argella. Like okay betray your queen and chain her up but did they need to strip her naked? Humiliating. Gotta wonder how conflicted she felt when her enemy who killed her father was the only one to show her kindness.
@@ZombieGravitation yeah. I really wish we got her thoughts.
Argella was definitely badass/headstrong, but she was a fool for continuing to fight when it was obvious she’d lose. She was exactly like her father in that respect.
Tough lmao She was literaly on suicide mission risking the lifes of her own people . If she resisted, Storm's End would be the new Harrenhal by the time Balerion and Aegon arrived there. It was a lost cause, contrary to the Martells and Dorne. Glad the people revolted there and didn't let her go along with that plan.
In the books the Targaryen kings are described as either being incredibly competent, or horrendously insane. Actually reading through their history I got the impression that some of the 'good' kings only got put in that group because they weren't a detriment to the Kingdom like their predecessor was (Aegon III). Or they were an impressive warrior that was good on a battlefield but meh when it came to court politics (Daeron I).
But Jaehaerys? Jaehaerys really was one of the best kings they ever had. He stabilized the realm, created a unified body of law for the entire continent, and under his rule his family and their dragons reached their highest populations ever.
Edit: a name I should have double checked before
In fairness I feel like most of the Post-Dance kings are being hard-carried by Visy II as their Hand, with only Baelor being the real bad egg of that trio. Like if succession had played out a bit better we’re talking about a second coming of Jaehaerys in decades long reform-centric rule.
It’s almost like the Dance is entirely about how the nature of male-line primogeniture is inherently flawed and leaves those next in line feeling slighted when everyone in the room knows they’d do a better job than their sibling. Hm where have we seen this before… I suppose it’s a point in favor of Viserys that he *didn’t* make the mistakes of the last generation in seeking retribution for the slight, so something was learned in the end, I guess.
Jaehaerys may have been a great king, but he signally failed as a parent.
And though it seems everyone was against him marrying his sister, from your description it seems their marriage was successful, except for all but 2 of their children dying before them and neither of the surviving children being suitable for succession (though the only problem with the princess appears to be her sex drive, but she probably wasn't allowed to inherit by the patriarchy anyway). Too bad Jaehaerys couldn't do something about the damn succession crisis that would follow him. Or maybe accepting that though his marriage worked for him and his queen, incest should be discouraged if you want the family line to survive.
Okay after reading the parts about Jaehaerys' reign and the lives of his children, Seara definitely didn't deserve to have any real power in Westeros. She was selfish and cruel to those weaker than her. I have to agree that Jaehaerys and Alysanne had a very good marriage, working partnership, and an excellent reign. It really is sad how things went up shit's creek within 2 generations after them.
I feel like it has too do with all the goddamn incest
Hey, Aenys wasn't insane or competent (same can be said for Viserys I, thought tbf he wasn't that bad, just the whole heir situation).
The names repeating is one of the aspects of worldbuilding I like most from ASOIAF, because it mirror our reality so closely. Not only for the kings, but for the average person. It's an often overlooked fact of life in fantasy in particular, but all kinds of storytelling really.
Yeah, Wheel of Time for example commits pretty heavily to no repeating names, ends up with side characters whose name only differ by a letter or so. But in real life names are nothing like that. I am sure everyone has met people with identical names in their daily lifes. And it is especially true for nobles, which most of the characters in ASOIAF are.
But if you use repeating or even most vaguely similar names in writing you get "readers" who bitch and moan about the names being "too confusing"...
@@stonefox2546 Well, those readers can go read something else.
Everything about the Dorn/Martel subplot was hilarious and/or badass.
Still mad about how the treated the most badass house in the show. God dammit D&D..
Minus the war crimes. Looking at you, guy who took Orys hands
Petition for Dominic to incorporate the incest dance into every video moving forward
Yes. lol
"Flowers in the attic" lost in adaptation perhaps?
Agreed!! 🤣
Yes
Absolutely necessary.
Considering Aegon's Conquest was at least partly motivated by the prophecy of the Long Night, you have to wonder if that didn't play a role in Torrhen's decision to not fight Aegon. There are some hints in the books that Starks had access to some funky First Men sorcery that could've allowed them to kill the dragons, but they didn't use it, probably because of the whole prophecy business.
You also have to wonder if the prophecy might also have justified the incest to those who perpetuated it, even after the Targaryens converted to the Faith of the Seven.
@@matthewhearn9910 Well, at the very least, before the Dance, they needed the incest to keep control of their dragons (and power). That alone I think justified it for them.
@Matthew Hearn in the show the prophecy didn't stop Rhaeneyra from getting non-incest children.
@@thevikingbear2343 One generation without incest is apparently fine, it's just that if they marry into other houses consistently enough, at some point they have too little Valyrian blood and can't ride dragons, apparently. Look, I don't know. I am not a fan of this magic system either.
@@tereziamarkova2822
Out marriages would have rapidly spread the dragon - rider gene which would have endangered the realm.
You can see this happening in the show where House Velaryon have now become dragon riders thanks to the marriage between Corlys and Rhaenys.
It would have been better to avoid this by allowing Rhaenys to take the throne.
The thumbnail is literally the most percise explanation of the Targaryen dynasty I've ever seen
Stark fun fact: the whole 'King-who-knelt-rather-than-lead-his-people-into-a-suicidal-war' story is take wholesale from German history. The real-life aquivalent of Aegon was none other than Charlemagne, and it wasn't a king who knelt, but rather a duke/chieftain by the name of Widukind. Charlemagne was a Christian, Widukind and the other Saxons still worshipped the Old (Germanic) Gods at the time, sacred trees played an important role in their faith. Widukind asked Charlemagne to be his godfather, which was stragically very smart. The name Widuking btw translates from Old German as literally 'the forest's child' and was an old term for 'wolf'.
OT trivia: Dr. Widukind Lenz was the German doctor who discovered that thalidomide was behind the epidemic of birth defects in post-WWII West Germany. Okay, technically the first one to connect the dots was Australian obstetrician William MacBride, but MacBride was trying to prove his hypothesis was true before raising the alarm, so Widukind Lenz was the first to sound the warning which pressured Chemie Gruenenthal to take the drug off the market.
@@astrinymris9953 True! It was horrible that he was disbelieved and silenced at first, but thankfully his warning was heeded eventually. Indeed, the name Widukind is still, albeit very rarely, used as a first name. It is also more commonly a family name, sometimes slightly alternated, e.g. Wittekind.
@@astrinymris9953 Iirc it was actually MacBride's nurse who raised the alarm.
Wow never heard about that comparison
William the conqueror is more an apt comparison
You forgot Viserys (Aenys' son)...
...Which is okay because so did his mom when she fled dragonstone.
And the poor boy paid for that by being tortured by Tyanna of the Tower for nine full days.
Ooof
HEYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
every damn time i hear/read about Dorne im in almost physical pain caused by the lack of focus the adaptations give it
Dorne deserves its own series, I think
Your Terry Jones impression for Meria returning is welcome and hilarious.
Right? It's so spot-on, it's uncanny!
I was thinking exactly the same thing 😂
I almost thought his next words were going to be "He#s not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy. Now go away!"
I would say that there are only two things worth mentioning that were omitted here.
First was when Baratheon marched to Storm's End after beating the army he was presented with his future wife, naked and bound as a gift so he would not kill everyone.
The other was how Aegon was almost killed by assassins but his sister saved him and he decided to create the Kingsguard.
Baratheon also treated his future wife with respect and when they married he took every symbol her family had except the name so It could have been way worse, that's something
I was glad Baratheon treated his wife with respect, covering her with his own cloak, unchaining her and giving her food and drink and telling her how brave her father was in battle. I like to think they had a happy marriage after that.
I’d also add that when Maegor took the crown he got into a 7v7 scuffle with those opposing his claim, came out the only survivor but was in a coma for a whole month before a mysterious lady from Essos showed up and maybe did some blood magic to wake him back up.
That impression of the Old Toad of Dorne is exceptionally accurate. That old hag was fantastic 😂
One of the funnest things to do was after HotD ended to look at the back of my old copy of GoT and look at the appendix. It lists all the Kings and it was fun to think how the hell it went from Aegon to the next listed King.
Loving the Visenya cosplay. and the Olenna shirt!!
I don't like how readers undersell Alysanne's accomplishments, without her Jaehaerys simply wouldn't have become the King he was remembered as.
"Can she do that?!"
She sure can, and did! Love House Martell.
The whole Dorne sequence felt like a Monty Python skit; well done.
Man, Martell's being badasses. You can see where Oberyn got it!
I do look forward to Cregan Stark marching in, smacking everyone down for F'ing up the country, stabilizing the place, and then just marching back North.
More like showing up looking for loot, almost destroying the kingdoms that hadnt burned in the war, acting like he was better than anyone by seeking justice for Aegon II and abandoning all when he was bribed with a new young wife
I know several factions wanted peace but they lines up behind Stark because crossing would not go well.
@@cattievogelsong96 the blacks had won even before Aegon II died, they had beaten his last army and all he had was Rhaenyra's son as a hostage but all his men knew that he was done, that's why there was a plot to kill him, at that point a peaceful transition was the best and Cregan almost ruined It all
Not many youtubers would be brave enough to do an incest dance, but that this channel is not that is why I subscribed.
Meria Martell and Toph Beifong would get along like a house on fire (especially if we’re talking about LoK era Toph)😂
Awesome video, as usual. Learning more about Dorne actually makes me even sadder about what they did to their storyline in the "show".
Grandma Martell is a master of neutral jing.
"I'm going to do . . . nothing!" *crazed unhinged laughing*
That old biddy sounds like who I want to be whenever I decide to grow up 🤣
I have no interest in game of thrones but I was still hugely entertained. Almost choked on my water when the incest dance popped up.
I think there is a huge audience for this kind of thing and you did a very good job so if you feel like getting a wild hair and doing this again don't feel too weird
I wonder if dom has enough wigs for these skits that he doesn't have to buy new ones anymore
Please do the Interview with a Vampire AMC+ series. People need to know about this show!
Once my history teacher said that if a Ptolomeu had to choose between world peace and bangging his sister we would have war. Never thought I would see an literal case of this weird declaration
4:20 Since Rhaenys was known as the sociable/fun one I can totally see her reacting like this 😂
Dorne was so badass.
This was excellent and you seemed to be enjoying it as well which makes it even better
Yay! I love these asoiaf history/recap videos they’re like my earliest lore experience with the franchise
and they have a cat cameo, much better then actually reading the books.
I like the fact that when house Targaryen doesnt do incest it creates some of the craziest guys like aerion brightflame
The Monty Pythonesque bit about Dorne not cooperating is one of the best I've seen in a long time.
People of Westeros: Jaehaerys, we can now worship free, govern justly, and grow vast field of hemp for making rope and blankets
Jaehaerys: yes and marrying our -cousins- sister
People of Westeros: what are you talking about?! why would we want to marry our sisters?
Jaehaerys: cause they're so attractive. I thought that was the whole point of me fixing everything.
After trying to do my own genealogy, I feel the same name frustrations so much. Kinda makes me want to shake my ancestors and yell 'stop calling all your kids william, Edward and Mary!'
I was trying to do my family tree and one side was bad about it (and sure enough there were knights and shit in that line), while the other had ONE instance of a man marrying his brother's window and Ancestry essentially told me to fuck off and wouldn't let me go any farther back with my paternal side.
I'm surprised the Targaryen family tree has so many twisting branches and isn't a fence post.
(I'm loving hearing all these recent videos with the little Messiah_OOF sound in them like Easter eggs.)
I don't know about Jaehaerys being a feminist for his time, he listened to Alyssanes council, sure, but the way he behaved towards every single one of his daughters indicates a certain misogyny to him; + ending the rape practices was more of an Alyssane thing than anything, he would often pass over female family members in favour of males in the line of succession as he did first with his daughter Daenerys, then his grandaughter Rhaenys. Some people argue that a lot of this misogyny stems from the fact that he was a fourth child and had an older living sister; Queen Rhaena, who he loved but also had to undermine in order to legitimize his throne, because by primogeniture alone she would have been the rightful heir to the throne, still, calling him a feminist for listening to his wife's council feels wrong, as a matter of fact Aegon I also listened to his wives, and Maegor was known to listen to his mother and Tyanna, the only difference there being that Alyssane was a decent person unlike Tyanna.
He was so bad with his daughters and a lot of the good things he did seem to be things Alysanne did.
If you think the Targaryen family tree is a hot mess and a bit of a nightmare to comprehend, take a look at the ptolemaic dynasty. Starting with Ptolemy I Soter, every man was named Ptolemy and for the women they cycled through like three or four names. Add to that their incest practices and you get a historian's nightmare. Because you have one "Ptolemy, son of Lagos" and way too many "Ptolemy, son of Ptolemy"s. Ancient dynastic names are fun like that... because here's the thing: ancient texts aren't too big on epithets and regnal numbers.
Well, it's a toss up between them & their fellow Daodaci (or, Heirs of Alexander- in layman's) the Seleucids- which the Ptolemies intermarried with at least once; if someone could straightforwardly explain their family wreaths- they'll just- they'll win the whole internet, in my book...
@@OcarinaSapphr- But the Seleucids at least used more than one name for their offspring, making it at least marginally easier to keep up with the who-is-who and who-is-whose and the who-is-what. But yes, the Diadochi are a bit of a mess (and made a bit of one too once the Argeads were gone). Which is exactly why I'm more than glad I don't have to deal with them in my bachelor thesis and can just focus on the Argeads and their numismatic iconography XD
Overly Sarcastic Productions did a great video about the Ptolemies. It's basically Blue losing his sanity and will to live trying to make sense of their family tree.
@@gozerthegozarian9500 sounds about right. To put it in the words of a fellow student in my bachelor seminar on foundation myths: "If your family tree starts forming triangles, you should maybe rethink some actions" XD
The… uh… musical interludes we’re making me cry with laughter by the end! 😂
Lol shades of Monty python in grandma Martell
It’s honestly kind of funny seeing how much people freak out over the Targaryen incest, because as someone majoring in ancient history, royal incest happened ALL THE TIME!
It helped keep all the power and wealth in the family, made sure no other dynasty’s had a claim to the throne via inheritance, and gave in to the whole divine bloodline thing ancient and medieval civilizations were really big on.
I’ve just gotten extremely desensitized to it in media after seeing it EVERYWHERE in my classes lol
It’s probably because most of those marriages were cousins being married together, as direct siblings or parents were seen as going too far
@@Isuream6331 Except Ancient Egypt of course, where every Pharaoh has at least one of his (often dozen of wives) be a sister or daughter of his. Like the famous Toutankhamon was the son of Akhenaton and his sister, and he married his own sister Ankhesenamon, who may have already wed and had a children with Akhenaton (their father, once again). It's no wonder Toutankhamon had so much health problems ^^'
@@krankarvolund7771 Yeah, my understanding of the inspiration behind House Targaryen was that it took heavily from the Ptolemys, who practiced brother sister marriages as a religious/social statement...but were also such massive sluts who constantly assassinated each other to put random cousins on the throne that they really weren't all that inbred
@@cam4636 And as big in confusing by having th same names all the time
@@cam4636 True, the Lagides were a clusterfuck of incest, while the ancient Pharaohs could at least mitigate it with numerous wives, the Ptolemys were incestuous and monogame ^^'
RE the Targaryens all having similar names; I was listening to a podcast about Napoleon and it's basically the same thing with him and his family! Not so much with the incest, but a _LOT_ of people named Napoleon, or Bonaparte, or some combination of both
Even if it is realistic for a royal house it is frustrating and confusing!
I feel like the Targaryen family tree is inspired by the Ptolemies (Ptolemys? Idk). They had three names that they just added numbers to and marriages to anyone more distantly related than a double first cousin were apparently anathema. Normally, you should have a total of 126 individual ancestors going back 6 generations to your 4x great grandparents. Poor Cleopatra had only 31 ancestors in that span, the majority of whom were named Cleopatra, Berenice, or Ptolemy. The Hapsburgs could only dream of being that inbred lol.
@@cockathiel5319 there is also the king of incest in the Ptolemaic dynasty, Ptolemy VIII who married his sister Cleopatra II then he married her daughter (whose father was his brother) and had children with both of them
13:11 Wait, did Dom just say "perma nocta"? Which, Google Translate informs me, is Latin for "last night" (though I have a sneaking suspicion that it's actually nonsense that Google doesn't know how to reject)...
Prima nocta ("the first night") is the mythical medieval practice of feudal lords having the right to have sex with the bride - while there are records of the practice in antiquity, and there's no doubt that those with power used it to rape women throughout history (right down to the modern day), there are no recorded laws that allowed it.
In the books i think it's called "lords right to the first night" and mostly the northern lords practiced it i.e. house bolton and house umbar
I like this type of video. I doubt it would even happen, but I would love it if Dom did a video essay like this about any of the series written by David Eddings. It's unlikely any of the series will get a screen adaptation, and I think Dom's style would be perfect for talking about them.
Polgara wig!!
This family tree continues to be a circle lol
I love this so much! The dance kills me.🤣
I think I remember seeing Princess Meria in a Monty Python sketch.
"Well, we've got guerilla tactics and spam, projectile weapons and spam, spam, spam, home turf advantage and spam, and a fiercely independent, tough and resilient population with the skills to survive in desert environment and spam."
We eat ham, and jam, and spam, a lot
The Dom twerking in 15:22 brings me joy! 😆
These videos are literally the only way I have consumed any House of the Dragon info & I plan to keep it that way
I’m really glad you added this video!
I like these because I'm not watching that stuff but this way I know enough to understand the memes.
Love the thumbnail. It perfectly surmises everything that happened 🤣🤣🤣
One of the reasons the Targaryen dynasty performed incest so much as it was deeply ingrained into their Valyrian culture and they had already changed so much to fit into Westerosi culture that they had very few traditions and customs from their native Valyria which was going extinct so for them give up those traditions even the incest was like a slap to the face like it would be like telling Native Americans to give up those last remaining fragments of their culture today
The audio for when a character dies cracked me up 😂 especially the first time with Grandma Martell
I think Dom, you should have mentioned the doctrine of exceptionalism. They beat the faith with propaganda. Which is super interesting.
I think worth mentioning as well was all the issues Maegor had trying to make his own heirs, making Jaehaerys the default successor anyway. Maegor basically had at least three wives at a time throughout his reign, abducting new ones as his insanity grew. If I remember right the closest he ever got to a viable heir were some of those scaly dragon/fetus stillbirths that plague the line. Once Maegor kicked the bucket it was some of those forced wives that perpetrated that propaganda.
I think it's weird that the show subtlety hinted that the Targaryen and other Valyrian inbreeding was tied to the dragons they needed to maintain power. The show almost made it seem like dragons have a near impossible time hatching from their eggs with a Targaryen or Valyrian around them. Meaning that the incest isn't just about maintaining lines of inheritance something that I think most people can easily understand, while not liking it in the real world, but now there's the needed part of the Targaryens risking diluting the ability to ride dragons by marrying outside of Valrian families and potentially losing the dragons entirely or spreading that ability out to other families and risk even more war and rebellion with non Valyrian dragonriders.
That is quite the summery. I like your comments about the builder’s retirement package. I like the Order of the green hand’s take on the Sons of the Dragon. I don’t know if you have seen it.
The moment the ad cut “had access” to “had axe”. Priceless.
I love this video and the "Incest dance" had me in stitches XD it explains SOOO much about the "Mad kings" of that line...inbreeding be like that. I guess our dragon fam was lucky that everyone was hot or else they'd end up like Habsburgs.
Plus valarions are pretty resilient to diseases though not immune just less likely to suffer the consequences of incest
I kinda wonder if someday we'll get books or a seriesnof some kind showing us Valyria before the doom. Maybe moments like the Valyrians when they were shepherds and learning how to tame dragons with magic, the origin of dragons, the rise of the Freehold, Daenys's dream, and the eruption of the 14 flames.
Nah it’d ruin it
@@matthewthenarniafan8074 how so?
@@campfire_cat what makes Valyria so special is that it is only talked about in terms of myth. Its magic comes from being a legend nobody knows the truth of. Pulling back the curtain and just telling everyone how it actually happened takes away the magic and makes an interesting fantasy realm to theorise about into just another lore page
@@greg_mca I think im seeing your point. It would kinda ruin the mystery surrounding the place. Would it be a similar case if they somehow showed as Asshai? Not saying that place would be the same as Valyria but it too is also kinda unknown.
Please keep doing what you love! They are the best videos!
Visenya intimidating the Arryns into submission feels so funny to me, because Visenya’s line would only produce one king before dying out, but the Arryns are ancestors of all the Targaryen kings from King Aegon III onward.
You dance way better and with way more confidence than I ever could xD
Great video! Nice shirt
1:23 I’m now regretting watching this while I was on the subway where everyone could see my phone screen
All your videos are relevant. Keep em coming. You do great work 👏
Love the video, also that Olena shirt is amazing
Princess Meria is played by the late great Terry Jones in this video 💛
"No!"
" - But that's how conquest works!"
"Exactly!"
" - What!?"
"Well it's like you said: that's how conquest works"
" - and?"
"And we don't _want_ any conquest! So…
…
…
…No!"
I like that your Maria Martell sounds like every rude impression of Liz 2.
At around 2:00, Torrhen Stark knelt not only because of Harrenhal but also due to the Field of Fire and not wanting to join the King of the Rock and the Gardeners at "a farm upstate"
Prima Nokta outlawed by Targaryens is probably at least partly because it would involve a lot of sex that wasn't incest. Targaryens just cannot be part of that. Grosses them out.
Loving my 'beautiful watcher hoodie'😊
10:00 I'm not even interested in GOT but stopped to watch the ad for the cat.
6:39 I love how you portray the high septon as unreasonable for being against incest X'D
Alysanne the Good is such a gem among iron.
Didn’t know that I needed Dom’s incest dancing until now, and I sure am glad I got it!!
Perfect title/thumbnail pairing. Chef’s kiss.
If I ever throw a party I’ll totally commission a Dancing Domgaryean video to play on a loop in the background.
I am gonna need Dominic to do more summary stuff of other books, say Wheel of Time? Talk about them in-depth?
Yes, please! That would be wonderful!
@1:23
Party like the Ptolemies!
I will mention it was the field of fire moreso than Harrenhal that made Torrhen kneel and it did happen after and not before, these granular details are easy to get mixed up, otherwise great vid!
This is the quality content I live for
I'm surprised you didn't mention that a huge factor in the incest was probably trying to maintain the ability to control dragons, something that Valarians could do, but no one else. It seems there must be a genetic component. The Targaryans could, and did, marry other Valarian refugees, but the population size was so small that sooner or later, they were all related anyway.
Aside from the fact that Dragons were their greatest weapons, would you want dragons roaming the countryside with no one controlling them? Because that was the other option.
So incest was both a power play, and the socially responsible choice.
5:21 fun fact the dornish city was hellholt and the family that shot the dragon down was called house Uller and there is a rumor that half of house Uller is half mad and the other half worse. LoL
Princess Meria Martell is like my fave historical Westerosi character 😂❤❤❤