The Great YouTube Cam and Lifter Controversy!
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- Опубліковано 19 лис 2022
- I see a lot of people on here having problems with flat tappet cams wiping out and blaming it on certain brands. The brand is irrelevant. Let me tell you why!
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"Just buy new old stock" is not a good solution. How long do you thing these supplies will last? Why is there a problem all of a sudden? Did we forget how to manufacture things? This is why it keeps getting brought up, it shouldn't be an issue!
I agree with you on that. I should say buy new old stock for now. It all comes down to lack of quality control. Whether its the cam core being soft, lobes ground wrong, or the lifters being soft or the wrong taper. It all comes back to quality control regardless of where the are made.
Buy American, not Chinese
@@unpopularopinion3158 I always try to when I can
@@unpopularopinion3158 I avoid Chinese auto parts.
That doesn't mean I am always buying American auto parts.
Plus, what car would you be repairing? Some people love restoring old VWs, and in order to avoid trouble, they need to find parts from Germany.
@@unpopularopinion3158 unfortunately for you the Chinese parts are better quality than American parts these days.
recently I found an old Edelbrock Perfomer SBC cam kit that came with lifters and lubricant in a sealed box from 1989 :-))) God I am happy!
Should have good lifters at least!
@@BlackLabGarage yes for me thats enough, I only need that cam for my restored Corvette C3 1973 convertible on a 9.2:1 compressed street engine with TH400 automatic box...not drag stuff
@@Schlipperschlopper Between 9-10:1 is plenty. A lot of people don't believe that but it's true. I've seen a lot of lower compression engines that would outrun high compression engines because they had the right combination of parts. Having the right combination is the most important thing in my opinion
@@BlackLabGarage exactly I will use good new old stock No Nonsense parts in that engine! NO China mechanical stuff installed! I have found a pair 30 Years old 1991 NOS Edelbrock 70CC chamber Performer bare aluminum Heads I just machined valve seats and bronze guides, I polished the ports and a friend with a flowbench (who does Rover V8 that are very similar) did a little porting...than NOS 1990 boxed Manley (US MADE) Severe Duty pro flo 2.02 /1.60 valves installed on NOS Edelbrock Performer RPM Springs (No beehive springs just the oldschool stuff single spings with damper spring inside) - sadly the NOS valves were not that great their valve contact surface sucked and sealing was bad , I had to rework all 16 valves that were not round on the face area, I dont understand how Manley could sell those expensive racing valves with face areas that were unprecise..well it took some time and work to get them corrected- Engine Block: L48 2 Bolt overbored (0.30over) & honed at machineshop and installed NOS Vintage 1989 TRW forged flat top pistons with floating pins and Speed Pro NOS Plasma Moly Rings (boxed back in 1988), those old reliable forged flat tops with only 2 valve reliefs... I kept the original cast crank that had all bearing surfaces still in great shape but ballanced it and installed a NOS set of HQ 1990 Michigan Forged rods that were sold by Summit 30 years ago under SSI house brand...made in USA, nice quality forged rods with genuine ARP studs. All rods weight matched +-0.5 Gramm, Than new HQ King street performance bearings (for Rods, mains an cam, I prefer King brand over Michigan77Clevite) and the NOS Edelbrock Performer cam with NOS hydraulic flat lifters....NOS street oil Pump NAPA brand (1978 Melling made) according to the sticker... etc...pp...small stuff added for example ARP head bolts etc Weiand Water Pump, NOS Crane black pushrods, guide plates and roller rockers from the mid 1980s etc... Intake system will be a modern Edelbrock pro flo 4 EFI MPi system...I rebuild the stock Quadrajet and put it in storgage too in the case theEFI sucks I will use that original carb again on an old 1980s Edelbrock Performer aluminum intake manifold. That all should run nicely and smooth. I dont want a lumpy idle or vacuum issue on my C3 Convertible that has a TH400.
@@Schlipperschlopper I had forgotten about the SSI brand. One thing about the old TRW forged pistons, they may be heavier than others but you could run over them with a dump truck and not hurt them😆 That is unusual for Manley because their stuff is usually top notch
I'd go roller if I'm doing an agressive setup. (i.e. high rev, high spring pressure, long duration, etc..)
I did a flat tappet Comp (XE256H 12-256-4) with the GM hydraulic lifters with the hardened faces. CCH made my 906 Vortec heads and set up my springs with low seat pressure as this is a low-revving street/offroad truck.
I also used Driven's break in oil and hot rod oil (high ZDDP and no detergents). Lifter crown and lobe taper checks are a must on flat tappet setups.
I'm about 250 miles in with plenty of idle time as I am still doing tests and finishing the build. About to register and insure the truck, DD to work and take it out to the woods for fun (put some real miles on it).
I probably dodged the cam/lifter failure bullet, but my mild setup is not conducive to these type of failures. The Driven oil is also protecting the valvetrain.
I don't think you will have any problems since you used a high ZDPP oil and used genuine GM lifters. I agree that if you aren't limited by a budget that roller is the way to go.
Good video.
New old stock is always a good option.
Break in oil such as Maxima or Amzoil or any thing like that is good.
The VR1 is good oil.
Castrol is also.
You are absolutely correct on the cam cores and the production cams.
That are CNC machined, mass production.
And re-boxed.
Lifters are a problem with the grind on the bottom.
Thanks for sharing.
Just subscribed.
Take care, Ed.
Thank you!
The problem with so called break in oil is it's not good for the rings.
@@jesse75 I've heard that it can cause problems with the rings seating
@@BlackLabGarage for the past 30 years I've always put break in lube directly on the cam and lifters.
For oil, used a non detergent 30 weight oil.
Engine was run for about 30 minutes, first heat cycling the engine.
Then, to remove the cam lube, did an oil change.
Never had a problem in over 500 engines.
I remember one stubborn engine, a 1984 302 in a van. It took over 1,000 miles for the engine to finally settle down.
It had a new radiator, hoses, pump, right amount of antifreeze, new belts, etc.
Wanted to over heat. No cam failure.
I did a 351w in another van. Customer complaining engine had lack of power.
Did the engine. Rebuilt the carb. Put a flat top piston for more power.
Customer called up saying van still had no power. I came over to his house to investigate.
Engine ran perfect.
He was Samoan. Hauling 7 of them to work. All over 250 pounds each.
@@jesse75 "He was Samoan. Hauling 7 of them to work. All over 250 pounds each." - ROFLMFAO!! 🤣🤪
I bought some old crane lifters for my chevy 454 build, get my fingers crossed on a comp cam.
Well I'm sure the lifters will be good anyway.
I showed that to a buddy, on his new cam, and he called bs. I tried. Gotta watch out for them flat bottom lifters too.
As the old saying goes "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." I have heard about the flat bottom lifters but fortunately I haven't ran into that problem yet.
I used a howards cam flat tappet and used GP1 break in oil. Didn't have a problem
Which lifters? I have a Howards flat tappet cam with soild flat tappet Crower lifters. Howards told me to use Maxima Break in Oil, remove the inner valve spring; said he no longer has any faith in Driven oils.
@@chestrockwell8328 idk I used the ones that came with the camshaft, my springs don't have an inner spring, I used H1 oil,for thier big block applications, the heavier and thicker oil helped out alot as I can see it wanted to go flat a little bit on the #1 exhaust lifter.
@@Texasmule thanks for the reply. I thought you used Driven GP1 oil? Who makes H1? and you could tell one of the lobes was wearing? Do you recall your spring pressures?
howards is all i use now. use their zinc additive, stp oil treatment, and vr1 or rotella t4 oil. never had a lifter or cam go flat.
I bought a custom flat tappet Bullet cam, and they talked me out of going roller because they’re confident in the cams and the Johnson lifters (who I purchased through them)
I have to say I have never heard of anyone having a problem with a cam from Bullet
How did it work out?
@@johndelta00 haven’t fired up the car yet lol soon, I hope 🤞🏼
Break in with care. Bullet cams with Johnson lifters sometimes fail as well.
johnson lifters are some of the the best you can buy in modern times.
Lifter face angle vs cam lobe angle being mismatched is the big issue. Comp got bought out by same company that manages edlebrock, edelbrock did not buy comp just same managing firm . My new comp roller has same CWC that has been for decades on most all camshafts.
I had read that Edelbrock had bought out Comp before they were bought out by IOP but that may not be correct. But either way IOP owns them Lunati and others.
Back in the day ('60's & '70's) all these fails weren't happening with any oil brand, any mixed brand parts (even used parts worked ok) full spring pressure, No break-in & No Break-in oils & No gouging up lifter bore squirters.....Just smear on the Molly--D paste & cranked 'er up with yo favorite oil.....Hell,....Didn't even measure Anything.....Round goes in round hole & square goes to square.....& life was No Brainer Cool ! .....AFAIR (been nearly 60 yrs) the new lifters (Oem, Crane, Isky) face looked Smooth & shiny with No round Swirly patterns... Nobody talked or magazine published Nothing 'bout cam lobe Taper or Lifter Crown & it Just Worked 1st time like it Had Plenty of Over--Build tolerance to Stupid & we Did Plenty of Stupid 'cause we Didn't Know any better & Learned by Doing it !!.....Even Sears Roebuck & J C Whitney Catalog sold Oem Replacement, 3/4 Race & Full Race cam kits !! .....Now seems If Everything ain't Nasa, Brain surgery microscope X-Ray Billet Tool Steel Perfect, it just Grinds into Powdered Iron in 1st 10 minutes ?? .....You might google up this Professional trained, Independent oil Consultant "540Rat" Who has Nothing to Sell & Sells Nothing but Knows how to use a Metat rubbing Metal cam Lobe -- Flat tappet Simulator hooked up to Pressure gages & has Tested & Rated All the Oil brands for Wear Protection......There's a Lot More to metal wear Protection than Zillion PPM Zinc & Phrosporus going on.....Read the Whole Report on over 200 oil product Wear Protection test results & Find out how good your oil product Really works.....
I'll check that out
Been using Bullet Cams for all of our flat tappet Oval Dirt Track and Street applications for several years and running more than roller spring pressures on certain applications with awesome success.
I have never heard a bad word about Bullet Cams.
Oil selection?
@@flinch622 was you asking me what I use?
@@BlackLabGarage Yes please.
@@flinch622 Valvoline VR1 oils with the combination of Lucas ZDDP additive.
I knew about the CWC part from other videos, but I always thought the BIG cam names ground their own off the shelf stuff. Some creative advertisement by omission. I have 3 sets of 10+ year old new never used Melling, TRW lifters. They just became valuable. thanks for the info.
Unfortunately they do not. Ever notice like Comps famous 268H grind is also available from almost every other cam manufacturer and the specs are always very similar? I'm just using it as an example. Which I can't even imagine how many custom cams Comp grinds a day. I'd say it's a lot so they just let someone else grind their off the shelf stuff.
@@BlackLabGarage Dam I just thought they were copy cats..that puts a whole new spin on looking through catalogs...
@@mikef-gi2dgyep…usually the duration and the lobe separation is the same. Most of the time the lift is a little different but that’s only a few thousandths on the cam itself so that would be easy to do while grinding them. Ever notice that all of the off the shelf cams have the name and number stamped into them while the custom ground cams from
Comp have it written by hand on the end with an engraver?
@@BlackLabGarage When I am cam window shopping I gravitate to comp catalog or cam quest because they give a good application description. Others manufacturers not so much detail. Those others have cams with numbers very close to comp.Now I find they sub-k it out to others for the grind. It's kind of now who do you trust, the big guys who farm out the work or the smaller guys with similar specs?
@@mikef-gi2dg Well with Comp buying out Lunati and then buying Crane you don't have many options. First thing they did when they bought Crane was destroy the cam profile books. That's what I was told anyway which doesn't surprise me. That happens a lot with buyouts. Honestly if it was me I would call Bullet or one of the others and get one custom ground that way you know it's a quality cam and it's ground with your application and engine in mind. The cost difference is not that much between off the shelf and custom ground.
I watched the video on guided border machine cam and when they got it. It was the same size as the one that was not machined. So that means it was not machine even though he paid extra. I don't know what to do. I'm getting ready to do a camp job. And lifters, and I'm really confused and I'm what to do.
Thanks for the info.
You're welcome
Appreciate the good information
Well I appreciate you posting, that's a good idea even though they won't last long on the shelf it's still some good information despite these ridiculous comments
You're welcome. Thank you for the kind words!
Do you recommend running the full synthetic VR1 in older engines or should I stick with the conventional?
I stick with conventional VR1 myself. Actually where I get my oil at, I haven't seen the VR1 synthetic for sale, but if a person wants to use synthetic oil that would be my pick.
@@BlackLabGarage Thanks for the recommendation man, I was a little hesitant to switch over to synthetic anyway as I got a little rear main seal leak going on anyway so I didn’t want to make that any worse.
@@hudsonvalleyhank5838 Yeah, if it leaks with conventional it will pour with synthetic.
@@hudsonvalleyhank5838 put a cap full of brake fluid in it it will soften the seals
I was taught at ATI in Virginia in the 70s to use a non detergent oil to let the ZDDP in the oil help in the mating process between cam lobe and lifter face. All oil had ZDDP then today that has largely been removed. Today you have to use a break-in oil, already has the right amount of ZDDP and non detergent. Just finished a 455 Buick, we shall see how long it lives, it made it through break-in. Great info on cam manufacturers, had no idea.
Hopefully you don't have any problems. I have a Pontiac 455 I will have to build soon
This is why break in specific oils were invented. They have extremely low detergent to go along with high ZDDP.
If all you needed was high ZDDP, most 15w40 diesel engine oils would do the job. However, those have high detergent to cope with soot loading.
Only guy on here that knows what he's talking about. I've built 600 or more engines. Did them all that way. Never had a problem.
It's the people installing cams and lifters for the first or second time. That's the problem.
I can resurface an old lifter, and it still won't go flat.
Correct. You absolutely need non-Detergent oil for breakin. The anti-wear (ZDDP) package and detergent package compete for space in the oil. I used Redline or Lucas breakin oil a few years ago (bought a 5 gal pail) and never had a problem. I used NOS lifters and checked lifter rotation before firing. Afterwards I checked to make sure all the lifters were still spinning. Cams are largely lubricated by splash. Back in the '60's Racer Brown recommended over filling the crankcase by a few quarts to get a good oil splash and mist and vary the RPM's. I ran between 2000-3000 RPM's for 30 minutes. Also, I only use Isky Rev Lube black moly paste on the lobes and lifters. I hate that red junk.
@@vincemajestyk9497 I've heard that old school thought of over filled crank case.
Never needed to do it. Like you, I've never had a lifter problem.
Occasionally, a hydraulic lifter didn't pump up, and I had to replace it.
I built a Cleveland one time where I plugged the drain back holes in the lifter valley. But drilled drain back holes directly over the cam lobes in the center of the valley.
Just an experiment. Seemed to work.
Our good camshaft cores for Holden 253 308 also come from CWC. Sadly the current only way to get a CWC core is by finding a good 2nd hand used core and Regrind it.
I have never tried a reground camshaft although I know it is done quite often.
@@BlackLabGarage I would not use one unless it was the ONLY choice. You're altering the valvetrain geometry by shaving the heel of the lobe changing the base circle and you can only vary the lobe center by a few degrees (2 or less). As it is, any changes are cutting through the surface hardening and risking another point of possible failure. Not worth it these days, cams are still relatively cheap.
@@vincemajestyk9497 Thats like using a crank that has been turned down quite a bit. I don't like to use them because its getting closer to cutting thru the surface hardening. I've never tried a reground camshaft but I guess on some engines there may not be a choice.
@@BlackLabGarage I bought one once and never used it. I didn't like the looks of it. Tried to sell it and nobody else wanted it either. Ended up pitching it in the trash. Only reason I could see for using one is if you have a really weird or rare cam you can't get anywhere else. I believe between a regrind and new is less than $100.
I’m now subscribed!
Comp didn’t buy Lunati. They are both now owned by the same people.
I remember reading about Comp getting something of Lunati when all that happened? It may have been their cam catalog that they got? Because they did get Cranes cam catalog when Crane was dissolved. Fast got Cranes distributor part of the business. But yes IOP owns Comp, Lunati, Edelbrock, and several others.
Old stock never been used !!! Quality american steel, quality workmanship, quality control, pride in manufacture, answers the question and tells the story !!! New doesn't stand for much these days does it?? All the best Sir.
at 2.57, is that cam for a Clevland?
No...that is a 429/460 camshaft.
Hi! What’s your take on the Rhoads lifters? Ive used them in the past with good results
I have absolutely nothing bad to say about Rhoads lifters. I know some people don't like the noise but I've ran several solid lifter camshafts so the noise is music to me but not everyone likes it...lol. I actually have a Pontiac 455 build coming up that if I use the Ram Air IV camshaft in, it will be getting a set of Rhoads lifters in it!
@@BlackLabGarage yeah , like I said. I’ve used them before, with no problems, and they’re different from other lifters, so you know that they’re not made in China. I bought a Comp Cams cam and lifter set, and soaked the lifters in oil, like they recommend. I found that some lifters would compress, and 3 of them would not. My first thought was that I would not be able to do my valve lash properly, and that scared me. I remembered that I had used the Rhoads lifters before, with no problems, and had a low, to mid range kick in the seat of my pants. So that’s the reason why I tried them again, after having my last Comp Cams failure. I figured that I’d at least eliminate one part of the reason why I lost my last cam
By the way, I gave my friend my set of brand new Com Cams lifters, after I had a problem with them, and he took them apart, and found a bunch of metal chips inside them. I know this “hot rodding “ thing isn’t that important to some manufacturers out there, but I’ve learned that you need to check everything out, before you install it. It’s turning into a money thing. The parts are nowhere as good as they used to be, and the manufacturing is being done by the lowest bidder.
It’s a sad time for us guys trying to make some simple horsepower! That’s what I’ve always wanted to do
@@stevenbongiorno9277 I can't say I'm surpised by that. Back when they were Competition Cams they were good stuff, but not anymore. I have a brand new Comp Cam in a Ford 460 that hasn't even been ran yet and I'm going to swap it out. It's not even worth taking a chance on anymore.
@@BlackLabGarage yeah.. it’s like you have to rebuild them, even though they’re brand new
Why is Delta cams never mentioned?
I had never heard of Delta before I made this video.
How old is good? I have some Summit brand lifters for a 460 that are about 20 years old. I was thinking about using them. Thanks for the videos. You have some good content.
I wouldn't be afraid to use them. I used some Summit brand lifters about 10 years ago and they were fine. Still running to this day actually. Thank you for the kind words!
Measure crown
@@Haffschlappe Already in the engine. Runs good So far.
I've heard that roller cams havnt had these problems is that true im planning on using a roller cam for my sbc stroker build and don't have alot of money so I want to get it rite the first time thanks
Well that's kind of a grey area. The hydraulic rollers that Comp sells off the shelf are cast roller camshafts not steel billet. Personally I prefer steel billet roller camshafts. Lots of people use the cast roller camshafts but you have to make sure you match the distributor gear up to match the camshaft. Cast gear for a cast camshaft or steel gear for a steel camshaft. Or bronze gear for all camshafts but they do wear faster. I've seen several cast roller camshafts ran with the oem steel distributor gear and it eats the cam gear up fast. The biggest complaint I hear on roller setups is the lifters themselves failing. Usually due to the roller falling out because of improper hardening of the roller pin or it was a loose fit when new and worked its way out. I hear Morel lifters are good and Johnson lifters are supposed to still be good.
I’m a new subscriber, what do you think about Moral roller hyd lifters
I've never heard anything bad about them. They are one of the better lifters being made. Thank you for your subscription!
This won't fix anything. There have been a few isolated claims of flat tappet lobes without proper taper. Root issue is the oil. Flat tappet lifters have been identified not rotating. Roller lifters have failed as well in vehicles with high idle hours. Hardness tests have been done showing that the metal is hard. The best option we have is oil additives. When you assemble a flat tappet motor, put paint marks on your lifters and roll over a dozen times to ensure you get rotation. That along with additives will solve your problem.
I do think there is a problem with sub par lifters also. Maybe I'm lucky because I use Walmart Supertech oil and good lube on the camshaft and lifters and I haven't had any failures.
I'm getting ready to start rebuilding a 1977 ford f150 4x4 you me some good ideas Robert carawan in little river sc
I hope all goes well with your build!
I’m no mechanic .. is the problem mostly hydraulic flat tapper cams or also mechanical tappet cams too
Honestly I can't answer that because very few people run solid flat tappet cams anymore. I like them personally and usually a solid flat tappet will outperform a hydraulic roller because the hydraulic roller is so heavy, but people don't like adjusting their valves anymore I guess?
I have a bone to pick with you,my lab is yellow but I’ve had black and chocolate.lol
Mine had several yellow brothers and sisters as well as black. There was 11 of them in that litter!
Custom ground cam doesn't solve the lifter problem, which... appears to be #1, but oil is nipping at its heels I suspect. What I can't find these days on YT is twofold: how to qc the crown on flat tappets vs the bore size [exactly as Detroit once did], but more importantly what is a good lobe taper vs crown match? Used to be alot more old b&w training or promotional vids floating around it seems to me.
From personal observation the focal point seems to be a pattern centered no closer to center than 25% diameter [from lifter edge]. Get too close to lifter edge and edges may chip. Get too close to center and the lifter may not spin.
Checking an old 0.842" hyd lifter set on hand from a cam I pulled years ago [on account of changing heads] that had about 3600 miles of use, I found this: burnishing pattern began about 0.050" from lifter edge and the pattern was roughly 0.080" wide most lifters [and that cam was installed with a thrust button that likely kept wear pattern tight]. If I didn't screw up the math... average wear pattern centers at about 11% of diameter. Hope those numbers are a help to somebody. Also, an old hot rod article that fills in a few details on the subject: www.motortrend.com/how-to/check-flat-tappet-lifter-crown-lobe-taper-lifter-bores/ You don't have to have a granite block - a pair of matched V-blocks and a kitchen table will work as long as your dial gauge has 0.0001" resolution and a steady base.
I think there is a reason why you hear of Comp Cams having more problems than others. I’m going talk about it in an upcoming video. Thank you for posting that link!
I think the reason you hear more of Comp cams having problems is because they sell way more than other cam companies.
@@scottvincent7666 It does help to think in terms of problems per 1,000 units sold. That keeps things apples to apples.
@@scottvincent7666 that just means their quality control doesnt meet six sigma standards.
Are the current cam & lifter problems only with a certain manufacturer, or does the problem exist throughout the industry?
Since most of the cam cores come from the same place and are ground at the same place so there isn't much difference between the brands. Now custom ground camshafts don't seem to have this problem, or as often anyway. Probably because there is tighter control over the grinding process and checks. I'm not sure who they are sourcing their lifters from but I haven't heard of many people having problems with Johnson lifters which are made here in the US. It's the lifters that are made elsewhere that people are having problems with.
@@BlackLabGarage There really isn't a 'core' casting or hardness or metallurgy issue. White Box or 'Detroit' mass produced cams are still ground on multiple old mechanical 'manual' gang grinders that make MANY cams per operation. If you order a 'Custom' nowadays from a big grinder it's likely ground on a CNC machine with VERY tight specs and checked on an Adcole or similar device before it goes out. Even if it's ground on say a Van Norman or Berco manual grinder it's probably serviced regularly and more in line with specs than your average mass production machine. They usually service the table bearings etc to keep them nice and tight so it machines 'in spec'. Before Crane went under and was moving from Fla to Ms they ground a cam for me and cut it on their Landis CNC machine (2017). The ONLY lifters to get today are the Johnson lifters. All the others are sketchy junk. Not always, but it's a gamble.
@@vincemajestyk9497 I hate that Crane went under. I would say they had the largest cam catalog of anyone? I liked the fact that when you bought a roller from them it was billet and not SADI.
@@BlackLabGarage They were a juggernaut in the industry. I used an H272-2 which a guy at a speed shop said was their most popular grind. That one that I got right before they went under was a work of art! I ordered it from Summit (in 2017) and they drop shipped it from Crane. I called their factory and the guy there said they were making it on the Landis (CNC). I ordered a couple cams from Racer Brown in Md about 20 years ago. Never used them. Those lobes were all over the place. I'm not talking a little either.
@@BlackLabGarage I remembered that it was Engine Power that made their own cores. I don't know that they STILL do but I did have a camshaft that had 'EP' cast into the core rather than CWC. I can tell you the EP core was nowhere near as nice as the CWC one. Maybe I got an 'off' one but this was a couple decades ago anyway.
You only hear about the ones that do have issues. You dont hear about the thousands that DON'T have issues.
I agree. I know people blame the lack of zinc and phosphorous, the crown on the lifter,etc.... but I think there are a few more reasons than that. I have a video coming out about that soon.
That coustom grind cam still have the same core
They sure do! After watching different people test different puked cams and lifters from different OEM's and they all passed a Rockwell hardness test. The issue is with the machining/final grind of these items.
You say find NOS parts, like they are laying under evdry tree...
There are a whole lot more parts out there than what people realize. People sell parts everyday on Ebay not knowing what they are and they can only be found by the part number. Not by application.
Crower Cams grinds all their cams inhouse, I worked there 12 years
That's good to know. Thank You!
Get the lifter bores grooving tool and groove the lower part of the lifter bore which will lube the camshaft and stop all the problems. The tool is $168.00. A conversion to a roller lifter setup can cost over $1000.00.
Go watch Powells video. The issue is the crown of the lifters are way out of spec and he proves its.
Just buy the cam you want from Delta Cams in Tacoma. Problem solved.
Honestly I had never heard of Delta Cams until I made this video. Oregon Cams and Bullet Cams I did know about but I only learned about Delta here recently. But I agree that anymore for what little price difference there is, you might as well get a custom cam ground.
@@BlackLabGarage I've bought over 200 cams from them. Funny thing.
Ever notice how a name can have an influence on people ?
I once met a FISH and GAME officer.
His name was David Trout.
My first, middle and last name. First letters. CAM. Hence my nick name since first working on cars when I was 14.
I've taken seriously what cams do now for 40 plus years. I've been generally quite about it. In all my years, I never have had a cam go flat.
But reading about this topic has been driving me nuts, the lack of real understanding.
Interesting info. I knew/know of those companies in Michigan. Actually, it's Campbell WYANT and Cannon in Muskegon, not Wyatt. Waver Bartel is/was owned by Federal Mogul which also bought CMC from Crane in 1999 or so. CMC bought Wolverine in '90 or '91. CWC is an actual foundry that makes the cores or blanks (maybe the only one left). There was another company but I can't remember the name or even if they still cast them. But I did have a 'non-CWC' cam. CMC ground most of the cams for Ford, GM, and Chrysler back in the '60's '70's and '80's. Most of their work was MFR contracts.
As far as Crower goes, I believe they do have a bunch of 'White Box' catalog grinds made by the Michigan mass gang-grinders but I believe for their own designs they may still make those in house. They did as of 2013. I bought a 'shelf' grind from them back then (Compu-Pro) and wanted a 3-bolt core and they said they would make it in-house on a Berco. You can tell the white box cams because they use the same specs for Ford, GM and Chrysler profiles. All Edelbrock cams are OLD white box cams. All the Jegs and Summit cams are from the really old General Kinetics lobe catalog which used to be owned by Lunati and I think are at CMC now.
The ONLY Lifters I EVER use is old NOS lifters. (Mostly '70's and '80's definitely pre-1995). These companies come and go and change ownership so often it's hard to stay on top of it. A long time ago there were only 4 lifter manufacturers in the US, Stanadyne, Eaton, and GM/AC Delco and Johnson Lifter. You could tell how they were constructed who made them. The Johnsons and the GM/AC were very high quality. The GM lifters were made by the DED (Diesel Equipment Division) and had a hardened foot. The Stanadyne and Eaton were generally good but periodically had some issues such as noise. Even back then TRW, Sealed Power, Speed Pro, Crane, (all the cam mfrs) just re-boxed the lifters from huge trays they bought. Sealed Power (long ago) ended up buying Johnson lifter mfring so they had their own supplier. GM lifters were strictly for GM OE and AC Delco aftermarket sales. Chrysler used both Stanadyne or Eaton. The problem today is generally traceable to bad lifter radius grinding. It should be .001-.0015 and match the cam taper. Even new cams that I checked are OK, for the most part.
Some good information in there. Thank you!
@@BlackLabGarage You're welcome Sir! I remember in the old days I took precautions but I'm sure I didn't do everything right. Now it's like one mistake will bite you in the azz. I have a bunch of sets of 'old' NOS lifters I've been buying over the years. The BEST ones I've seen are those AC Delco, which they did make them for all makes in the '70's and '80's. I've got 2 sets of those and some Johnson and Eaton sets. One set of AC's are in AC Delco boxes and the others are re-boxed in an old Clevite box from 1989 or 90 by Clevite.
Do you know anything about Elgin lifters?
@@dougdier3104 I do not know who Elgin is sourcing their lifters from? More than likely they are sourcing them from the same places as everyone else. Personally if going with a flat tappet camshaft I will either find NOS lifters or buy new Johnson lifters.
@@dougdier3104 Elgin is just a 're-boxer' of other maker's lifters. So depending how old they are they could be OK or not. Johnson Hylift is the only current 'US' maker (hydraulic flat tappets) and they are expensive now. More than likely they're Federal Mogul which I believe are made in Mexico. There was a chart that I got quite awhile back that had a breakdown of 4 manufacturers (actual manufacturers) and how to tell them apart. That would be AC (Delphi now), Eaton, Stanadyne, and Johnson.
The point of all the information coming out is that the cam manufacturers need to be accountable for what they are selling. No mail order cams should be used!!! Even custom grinds are failing. There are more than three locations producing cam cores. Hughes cams gets all thier core from the Waupaca foundry in WI. We own the original rights to lunati cam specs. We also get our cores from Waupaca. Both cast and billet. Bullet gets cores from a foundry in TX. ISKY is still using cores from years ago! They collected the remaining stock from PAW! They don't cast any new cores. Howard's is another distributor that uses Waupaca foundry. They make just about every drum brake, flywheel, hubs, and brake pads sold here in the u.s..
For another example....after 2004, Harley Davidson also got their components made at the Waupaca foundry. Now the metal fenders and frames come from China.
The hydrolic lifters are not (new) pcs. They are remanufactor lifters.
If your buying old stock. You need to buy parts pre dated before the early 2000's.
Thats the first I have heard about remanufactured lifters?
@@BlackLabGarage yuuup. they are either clad welding and remachining them, or just recutting the face, cant rememeber which. its baaad.
I knew that there are places that remanufacture lifters because for some old engines that's all that you can get now but, I hadn't heard that the major manufacturers were sending remanufactured lifters out with their cam kits?@@frigglebiscuit7484
Just learn what it takes to make flat tappets live.
After inspecting parts - been doing that for decades -
I've lightly dressed the bottom of lifter (just slightly smoothing the rough finish) washed, then soaked the cam overnight in oil, used molybdenum paste break in lube, single springs, and straight 30wt non-detergent oil for break in. After a full break in, 1/2 hr, changing rpm every 5min,
To date I've had NO camshaft/lifter failures with flat tappets.
I never use the red sticky stuff that Comp sends with their cams.
had the moly cam lube clog a oil filter. never will use again.
Powell got a a new set of Crower lifters and measured the crown. There were all out of wack. They put a dye on the crown and ground them to visually show you the shape of the crown. They shaped like a football!! Hahaha!!!
I hate to hear that Crower is sending out stuff like that too
@@BlackLabGarage Obviously zero quality control going on at Crower when a customers can open a box of lifters and take one looks at them and say "These look sketchy"
@@TOMVUTHEPIMP I agree. That's pretty sad because Crower has always been known for having some of the best stuff out there
Yeah, not good when you open a box and visually see something dont look right.
That squeaker has my dog fired up .
I have the same problem with mine when they hear a squeaker or another dog on tv lol
Mine also😂
I would just go with roller camshaft.
I have nothing against roller camshafts at all. But sometimes the budgets don't allow for them. If a persons budget allows a roller set up then I agree that is the way to go!
@@BlackLabGarage I totally understand. However the quality and craftsmanship in today's flat tappet camshafts are substandard to say the least. And you wined up paying the same price if you have replace a cam and lifter set. Not to mention that our modern oils lack the zinc content of the old days.
@@sportsmansparadice42 sadly people are having problems with the roller lifters being of poor quality also. Mainly I hear of them loosing their axles on the end of them.
@@BlackLabGarage That's not good...
@@sportsmansparadice42 no it's not
When the manufacturers source the cams from those 3 cam manufacturers guess what they outsource their stuff from China which is why engines blow up. I had to replace the camshaft on my old bmw because the cam went flat. I bought oem from fcpeuro a German car wholesale parts website and it’s been perfectly fine 20,000 miles in despite me being an idiot running 20w50 after intial break in with amsoil break in oil when it’s 20 degrees out in the middle of February
It really is hard to beat OEM parts a lot of the time. On my Perkins diesels in my tractors they get either Genuine Perkins or Massey Ferguson (Agco) parts. Anything else is a waste of time usually.
Not true. Those 3 companies cast, harden, and finish machine those parts right there in Michigan. The grinders are all located there as well. I'm not sure of the 'ownership' of Wavern Bartel. I think it was partly Chinese owned although they still manufactured in the US. I can't speak to 'where' your BMW cam came from. It might have been reboxed from elsewhere. I'm sure they don't make a ton of old foreign car parts to make it worth their while. An OE part would always be the best option in that case anyway.
All the modern oil lacks all the additives that use to be in older oil blends.
The zinc and I forget what else has been removed from oil blends because modern engines do not need them because they all use roller technology.
The additives were removed because they would foul O2 sensors and cause them to need replacement.
When the auto manufacturers were required to make 100,000 mile tune up engines, they lobbied the government to have the additives removed from the oil blends.
Flat tappets need the additives to live.
I agree. That's why I said to use the additive and either diesel oil or Valvoline VR1.
@Black Lab Garage diesel oil is the same zddp levels as regular automotive oil. Federal law since like 2012 requires it to be. When they forced diesels to use Def is when they forced diesels oil to comply.
@@cyclonebuzz8172I knew a lot of the diesel oil was the same as regular gas engine oil but I remember looking it up and said that 15w40 Rotella was still high in ZDPP whereas the 10w30 wasn’t. It may have changed again since I looked that up
@@cyclonebuzz8172I just looked it up again and the Rotella T6 has less than the T5. As of 2021 the T5 15w40 is still showing 1200ppm
@Black Lab Garage If I remember correctly, the t5 is the only one left that has high zddp. Unfortunately, from what I understand, shell is starting to faze out t5. So it won't be available for much longer.
Just get a Cam from Delta Cam in Tacoma.
I haven't heard of them? I know about Bullet Cams and Oregon Cam Grinders but I haven't heard of Delta. I'll have to look into them.
@@BlackLabGarage they have some videos on utube.
I've used them for over 30 years.
I have No Idea why my text comment is all Lined Out......Gate this darn Keyboard digital shi te !! ..... Sorry 'bout that Mess....
It's ok...I was able to read it
I use ISKY
Isky is good quality stuff and as far as I know they still grind all of their own cams. The downside is they only have single pattern camshafts for Fords and Ford usually perform better with a split pattern with more exhaust duration on the street. I wish Isky would offer more split patterns
@@BlackLabGarage I've only used that type of cam in a 302 Windsor everything else Chevy.
But crane crower also a good option
@@chris1john99 Unfortunately Crane is out of business. Crower is good stuff but for their prices you could get something custom ground.
Hyd roller little pricey can't trust anyone
Hydaulic rollers aren't for people on a budget...like me lol
@@BlackLabGarage keep replacing cams, and lifters. In the end rollers will be cheaper.
@@normanhamiltn1155 I'm not having cam failures. Mostly because I use NOS parts
And Browning doesn't make their rifles either would that stop you from buying a Browning rifle
Well I don't own a Browning
People wont stop buying 3" 1911s even though they malfunction every 2nd shot.
@@TOMVUTHEPIMP Back in the '90's a guy I worked with wanted 'matching .45 ACPs' so he bought a cheap set of Chicom Norinco's. A bunch of us went to the range on the weekend and he let a coworker fire one of his 'new' 45's and the thing jammed on the 4th or so round! He was pissed! As if the guy he let fire it did anything wrong. These were normal 5" barrel length. 3" is just ridiculous for that round.
Dont buy Chinese cams...buy Elgin or Erson
I bought a Howards camshaft. Says right on it Made in USA. Their website says 100% American Made
Check all convex crowns of the lifters Take them apart and Look for filings and debris inside...than reassemble with a proper snap ring instead of paperclip.
@@Haffschlappe I always check the crowns but I haven't had any problems with the clips coming out of them. I could see if someone didn't have enough preload on the lifter and the lifter pumping up and pushing the clip out though
You are wrong! They grind their own. The supplied by two different manufacturer . You can go watch a cam video right here on tube and see that they grind their own Cam's go do some more research.
Yes they grind their own custom grinds for customers but the off the shelf cams they do not grind. You need to do some more research and you will see what I’m talking about.
The cam cam are supplied by two companies in Michigan.. the cam companies buy The cores from one of the two manufacturers and then they grind them to their own specs.
@@jerrywhaley6397 From the article here "What the cam companies do is have their proprietary grinds (design, lob profile etc.) and have them ground by one of the big three. Very few cams are actually ground by a name brand cam company, Crane is one exception but they don’t grind all of theirs either."
Go look at CMC's cam catalog and see if those grinds don't look very familiar.
Yeah I downloaded the PDF. It doesn't say if they're roller cams are flat tappet cams. CWC Textron in Michigan is what you see on the flat tappet. Since they supply for the big-3.
Why don't you just address the problem of companies getting sued for this. Your saying just bend over
I don’t believe there is any magic break in process or zddp oil that will prevent a soft lifter or poorly ground cam from turning into metal dust.
I’ve lost two cams doing “all the right things”. No rhyme or reason other than poor quality lifters or cams.
I agree with that. Was both of your cams that went south Comp cams?
@@BlackLabGarage one was a summit racing k1104, the other was a Melling ford FE “rv grind”. Both lost multiple lobes and lifters during break in.
@@johndelta00I was curious what they was. What brand of lifters was they?
@@BlackLabGarage summit brand lifters on one and I think the others were engine tech.
@@johndelta00I would bet they are from the same supplier.
Thats funny, I just watched a video the other day of comp/edelbock new warehouse with new cnc cam grinders.... Howards, clay smith, crower do their own to the best of my knowledge..
Comp does grind custom camshafts but not the off the shelf camshafts.
Honestly Chinese stuff is better than American made stuff now.
The people who avoid Chinese made things wouldn’t like to see the amount of American stuff that’s failing in comparison.
The chinese can make stuff as good as our stuff but it's the businesses that import it that do not demand better quality or tighter specs. The chinese will make it to whatever spec you want.
I'm pretty sure Erson grinds their own. They make very good cams.
At one time they were doing both. Selling their own grinds and selling reboxed cams. When they moved the operation to Louisville, KY they said they were strictly grinding their own camshafts and each operator signed his name to them. I can't say for sure if they are still doing that or not. I know when I look at their online catalog most everything shows to be out of stock.
@Black Lab Garage by what I'm told by friends that build engines , Erson is now custom grind only. You can look at tge data sheets and pick a cut and they grind it for you or can do custom grinds
@@robinmurphy3085 that's good if that is what they are doing. I would consider using them
Erson Cams, back when it was Sig Erson Racing Cams in Long Beach made some decent cams but they were VERY conservative lobe profiles (ramp rates) and mostly a bunch of 'copy cat' lobes of the OE HP profiles and other grinders. They really went downhill when Sig sold out to Super Shops in 1982 and they moved the operation to Carson City. They did make a recovery in the late '90's after the SS debacle and made some strides in profiles and innovations under Steve Tanzi but he left right before the move to Ky after the purchase by PBM. I called them in 2013 or so (PBM) they were talking big and trying to get into a saturated market. It didn't really pan out. In fact, they had a new line of lobe profiles I was interested in and when I called a couple years later they dropped them! Now, as you said, everything is out of stock. It looks like they've gone backwards. Engle had some really nice grinds but they're long gone too now.
@@vincemajestyk9497 Sig Erson and the Super Shops deal was before my time but I do remember when they were trying to get back into it in the late 90's. I remember seeing their ads.