About Astro Bot sales. I think it's not as high it's NOT because less people are interested in platformers, but less people interested in platformers bought PS5. I want to play platformers so I didn't even think about PS5, why should I buy a console with only long 3rd person story driven action adventure games? I bought Switch because all platformers are there. Also Doom Eternal is also platformer in my eyes ;)
Yeah, I think this may be the real reason Astro Bot didn't do well. I'd love to play it, but PS5 is a big investment for a single game. Also Sony's exclusive games policy is strangling the industry and I don't want to support them. But mostly that first one
Astro Bot also reuses a lot of assets from the games that preceded it, Astro Bot Rescue Mission and Astro's Playroom. That probably helped a lot with its budget, and hopefully made it enough of a success in Sony's eyes
I dont think its platformers in general that arent popular, but its platformers on a PS5. Platformer games rarely ever release on PS5 (And when they do, they usually are on other platforms as well). The target audience for platformers doesn't really match the target audience of the PS5. With that being said, I actually respect what sony is doing. Making a smaller and therefore cheaper to make game that isn't going to be as popular, but fulfills a niche market is way more sustainable than following everyone else and making tons of the same 2 types of game over and over. If they continue doing this, i can see it being hugely successful for them.
I mean, there is a huge revival of the 3D platformer scene from Indie games (who can be better than AAA 3D platformer ahah). Pseudoregalia Cavern of Dreams Corn Kidz 64 Tinykin Hellpie Spark the Electic Jester 3 The upcoming "The Big Catch" looks fantastic etc.
Ok, I’m at 14:30 and I don’t disagree entirely and I will finish the video but can I give another opinion if anyone wants to read it? It may not be that people in general aren’t interested…it’s that the kind of people that are: the people that love Mario sunshine and grew up on 64 puzzle platformers…are not the demographic who have a ps5. I love watching other people play ps5 games because I like the graphics and the story as much as the next gal, but no way am I spending almost a grand on a console with maybe 3 games that I actually want to play when my switch has a TON of games that I love to play for way way less and it’s easy to play with my more casual friends. If anyone actually read this:thank you. Btw I love this channel and your videos so much you’re awesome💜
That's what happens when they release those two super early in the generation and then avoid making new entries (except maybe bowser's fury) until the generation ends, where said generation has lasted a lot.
43:40 it's worth mentioning that Astro Bot reuses a lot of assets from previous entries (specifically Astro's Playroom) which probably means that the devs could afford to create Astro Bot
Was gonna mention this. Also, the fact that Astro Bot plays on PlayStation nostalgia to help bring in existing fans as well. I'm wondering if Astro's Playroom was originally greenlit as a cheap way to bring kids to the system, then when they saw the metrics on how many people were playing it, greenlit the full game.
Ceave this is such a frusturating video to watch because so much of it is fluff and it makes me sad. Chapter III is where the real content actually is. Lots of longform content is thriving on youtube, but it is so hard to watch your recent videos as someone who used to be a longtime fan and stopped supporting your patreon because I just couldn't sit through these videos anymore. So much of this video is about making connections to things which are only somewhat relevant to the point; there is lots of style but the actual substance of the video is only really in certain parts. I really loved your older shorter videos on game design since they were more condensed and usually only focused on a couple topics at most in game design. This video lacks a lot of clarity and it makes it a tough watch since you have to wait for over halfway for things to actually start coming to any real points. I feel like it would be worth considering whether or not these videos actually need to be this long and contain all of these interweaving stories on football and the like since it seemed to have weakly contributed to your main point either way. I really loved your older content. I feel no ill will towards you or this video, just wanted to state my thoughts.
The year is 2024, Tyler The Creator is threatening to make grape jokes again, JD Vance has resorted to grocery store eyeliner, Disney execs are secretly floating the idea of animated remakes to their live action remakes, and I'm reading a comment that perfectly describes my thoughts on why I'm no longer enjoying Ceave's videos. ...it's 1998, Ocarina of T-
@@makeitthrough_ Definitely watch MatthewMatosis if you like videos regarding game design. His videos are of the highest quality and don't meander like this at all. Especially his later content before he retired. His videos made clear to me a lot of ideas in game design that I could never put words to and honestly he might be the best at it. He even touches on why 3D platformers might have actually died which is the fact that you have to align the camera before you can make a confident jump and the issues with depth perception and control of a character in 3D Space. Context Sensitivity and the Micro video series touch on these points. In 2D space you can have a fixed perspective camera that is consistent and it is much easier to be confident in where you character will go since you don't have to measure your characters placement in 3D with an ever changing camera perspective.
I get where you're coming from and your point 100%. These videos are overdramatic, very drawn out and lengthy, slow, but that is also exactly why I love this style so much. For me, their are so many channels that go very in-depth about game design. While that is what Ceave does here, Its in a way I feel is more fun than just out right explaining game philosophy. He almost takes a goofy detective stance that, even though I know the answer to these "cases" I still have far too much fun watching to see how he get to those points. I'm saying I get what you mean, but I think his performance makes up for it, for me at least.
@@DauntlessBlade___ I totally agree, not only can you learn something interesting about games with those videos, but it also feels like you're going on an adventure to get there. For me, that makes these videos highly entertaining and thought-provoking all throughout. Additionally, I also quite enjoy learning about all the connections Ceave is able to make.
@@Papierkorb2292 i agree as well, thing is that the sports thing will resonate in my head for a while, both because Ceave took his sweet time on it, but also because it was just a unique point. The fact that he meanders and stays on topics for a while is what makes them work for me, to be honest. It's not just "people prefer this type of game", it's "Here, let me tell you a story", and you have intrigue of what the story is for, about, and why. And the story ends up explaining why people prefer the type of game way better
Which would be incorrect, there was a gazillion of 3D platformers in PS2 era. Tak and the Power of Juju, Vexx, Ratchet and Clank, Billy Hatcher, Kao the Kangaroo, Sly Cooper, Ty the Tasmanian Tiger had a full trilogy. If N64/PS1 was Golden Age of 3D platformers, PS2 was the Silver Age.
I really hate it when people complain about collecting things in collect-a-thons... like that's the whole point? Do you complain that you have to shoot things in a shoot-em-up? Or that you have to match colors/shapes in puzzle games? Admittedly _sometimes_ they go a little overboard, like 900 Koroks is too many, but then you only "need" to find less than half of them to max out your inventory, so it all works out.
@@Wendy_O._Koopa The problem was really lack of character swapping on demand. I wonder if the game was originally designed with this in mind, and some technical limitations prevented shipping with the feature.
@@Wendy_O._Koopa When every single game at the time is about collecting random items, it gets exhausting. I'm sure you were complaining about the amount of MOBAs in 2015, and the amount of team based class shooters and battle royales in 2020.
it's funny watching this after i got done playing shadow generations, which has been such a fun 3D platformer for me that i'm gonna replay the shit out of
I still think the lack of popularity of platformers has to do with the genre being seen as “for children”. Mario obviously exists as an exception due to its popularity. Mario has already established itself as an IP for everyone, including adults. But the average person playing more “mature” games is going to look at a platformer and believe it is made for kids. They don’t want their friends thinking they like to play childish games. And so the unfortunate reality is that they just don’t realize that they can have fun playing those types of games, and that no one else really cares what they play.
I'm not sure I fully agree with that last point. I'm not sure saying Astro bot isn't smart for reusing mechanics and assets, I just think people who played Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze think discarding a gimmick and asset is the norm but 3D platformers were born from reusing assets. The golden age of of 3D platformers (and the 5th gen in general) utilized asset reuse confidently. It's why games like Crash had stage themes and why they all had 1-2 sequels with the same assets.
I also think it's strange to posit that asking the player to showcase a greater mastery over an established idea is bad game design when it's like the cornerstone of Platformer design. Don't let Tropical Freeze fans know this, but it actually does this a lot, it's just masterful at hiding it.
DK Tropical Freeze is a 2D platformer and Crash is a linear 3D platformer that mostly plays like a 2.5D platformer. There is a lot of nuance between different platformers, many consider when Open World became popular in the early 2000s, it became a trend that 3D platformers chased, often to their detriment.
I'd consider myself to be well within the target demographic of Astro Bot. By that, I mean that I love 3D platformers, own a PS5, and, in response to some points raised in this video, don't have a lot of interest in live service games or grindy online progression-based games. With all that being said, I did not buy a copy of Astro Bot. I bought half a copy of Astro Bot, with the other half purchased by my friend. My friend played it first, then handed it off to me. Games with online multiplayer and games with longer runtimes would probably have required us to each buy our own copy. Just an anecdote to show where some of the sales may be going.
That's more of the nature of short games. It's why open world, online multiplayer and mountains of cutscenes and dialog to push a game to be longer, became the industry standard.
Demon turf, corn kidz 64, psuedoregallia. Crash 4, bowsers fury, Sonic frontiers and shadow generations, Those 7 came out this decade, you want more recent 3D platformers, look at what nitro rad has covered in his rad 3D platformers series. The genre didn’t die, it’s just being drowned out.
@@hgmd3284 Well, he specifically mentions Crash 4 by name and it's part of the narrative. As well as Sonic, Mario, Ratchet & Clank, Jak & Daxter... maybe he should have titled the video _"Is_ The 3D Platformer Dead?" or something. Because to sum up the video, he comes to the conclusion that "No it is not" (an a _lot_ more words). So you're essentially agreeing with him... so I guess I really have nothing to complain about? Never mind then.
I dont think I've ever disagreed with Ceave as much as in this theory. My personal opinion is that Astro bot sales were not as good as they expected, is that it was a PS5 exclusive. PS5 is not only extremely expensive cutting out the younger market, the PS series is not known for platformers. Their market is not people who particularly like platformers. I personally would love to see a new 3d platformer on par with banjo kazooie come out on steam. Hell, I would argue banjo kazooie has progression. It might not be extensive, but just like in Mario, it has a collect all of these things system. It has powers that you unlock over gameplay. I would say in fact that the reason there's not many 3d platformers because not only is it difficult to design well and even include replay value, it is very hard to monitize beyond the initial purchase. And in fact it's the exponential increase in design difficulty that we see so many 2D indie platformers, but so little 3D indie platformers. Because it is in exponential increase in difficulty between 2D and 3D of making the game look and feel good and interesting.
Something you didn't touch on: a studio can either spend 3 years making a giant AAA game, or they can make like 2 or 3 medium sized games in that time and make even more money. Even not counting the "putting all your eggs in one basket" argument (since most CEOs are incapable of grasping small but deadly risks), it still makes sense from a business perspective to have 3 games that profit 100 million each than one game that profits 200 million
Nintendo really understands that well (aside from whatever they are doing with GameFreak): big games like mainline Mario platformer and mainline Zelda titles are rare, but there's tons of smaller games that release constantly (Mario party, Mario kart, Mario tennis, etc)
Many devs everywhere understands it, but the publishers with the money doesn't. The people with the money does not care for slow and steady and safe. They see this as opportunity loss... And thus they don't do it :( which is very sad. And a lot of it has to do with how the stick market works. It really makes so many industries and businesses worse, as all is about short term profits, and buying/selling. Horrible for actually making good long term strategies and actually good products...
@@laytonjr6601 The problem is precicely that they aren't really doing much of anything with Gamefreak. Unlike with most Nintendo published games Nintendo doesn't own Gamefreak, they own 30% of The Pomemon Company which Gamefreak also owns 30% of. As such much of what happens with pokemon is very much out of Nintendo's hands because they only have so much sway over the direction of the franchise and basically none over the devlopment of the games beyond it having to be exclusive to Nintendo consoles.
@@laytonjr6601 I really like that Nintendo releases a lot of AA games with a good amount of variety. However Nintendo has some advantages that most publisher doesn't: they already have a well established reputation, with many regonizable mascots, people get excited about the Nintendo directs, so if Nintendo decides to make a new AA game they can get enough attention to make it profitable, but most publishers struggle to be able to capture the attention of the players. Also, the fact that Nintendo is a console manufacturer helps, because having a large amount of exclusive games with a good reputation elevates the reputation of their console, which allows them to sell more consoles and that's very profitable in the long run, even if the games don't sell that well (for example, all Xenoblade Chronicles games have sold poorly considering that they are very big titles, however that gives Nintendo the reputation of having very good RPGs among their first party titles and that pushes the idea that Nintendo has something good for everyone).
I feel like the last several videos on this channel have been far too hung up on trying to weave some overly complicated frame in ways that are far too dragged out, and then it just doesn't pay off. The entire pig side story had nothing to do with the conclusion. If the conclusion is that people gravitate towards external reward structures rather than intrinsic rewards, 'sports fans are crazy' does nothing to bolster that point. There are also a lot of arguments here that are also pretty clearly not supported by data. Kids are not any more resistant to extrinsic reward structures than adults. The video also seems to indicate that interest in games with primarily intrinsic reward structures is entirely collapsing, but that doesn't really comport with the broad success of many indie 2D platformer or puzzle games. In fact, I'd argue that many of the most popular platformers have in-built extrinsic reward structured in the form of collectables. While these systems may be less predatory than loot boxes, they are not materially different than the extrinsic reward systems that have continued to drive extremely popular character action games, RPGs, etc. I know you mentioned you were having retention problems. I suspect the general approach of overwraught storytelling that compromises a comprehensive analysis of the actual topic is probably a lot of what's driving that.
Bro wanted to talk about a funny story about his favorite football team in his you tube video. It's not the anecdote I would have chosen to tie into the video topic, but the point that "when you are so deep in the weeds of a communal activity ridiculous tasks seem normal and reasonable" is a perfectly reasonable way to connect hanging a pig of the other team to strip mining for diamonds in minecraft for a group base. Now as far as sources go "the games the people in my social circle put the most hours into" is not a terribly scientific set of data, but I see nothing wrong with tying in the notional that "as he grew up he observed his peers preferences of games shift to be either games with a communal core or games that re-frame simple actions as a part of a greater whole" into the conversation about how risk adverse publishers are becoming more an more unwilling to release games that are not either live service slop or long form Red Dead action/narrative games thus connecting industry trends to behavior of people he can observe. As far as channel health goes this video is quite long in relation to what it has to say, probably could be cut down by 20 minutes without losing much, although Ceave built the channel on revived success from long meandering cozy content and I would be hesitant to stray away from what works.
@brennantmi5063 He specifically indicated in the previous video that it *wasn't* working and his reach has been falling. As someone who would like Ceave to succeed, I was shedding light on things about this video that I personally found would have caused me to click away if it were by almost anyone else. Your own post in a few paragraph makes reasonable connections to things that this video in over half an hour did not. I think that's telling. I still think the pig story is a giant non-sequitur. I don't think going way over the line while falling into an abyss of out group bias and peer pressure is the same as being willing to perform an otherwise rote task for some external reward. A better analogy would be to bullying in text/voice chat, which really wasn't mentioned at all. This entire story was positioned as some grand pillar of the discussion, but it's barely relevant to the actual thesis at all.
It reminds me a video talking about speedrunning where the creator talks about a singer Billy Murray and Roman triumph, both that had almost nothing to do with speedrunning.
@@brennantmi5063 Would have been good to relate this to parallels in how live service games make us do inherently crazy things, like grind a game like a job everyday loyally, rather than shop around for fun experiences, because we are comfortable playing with friends in our chore simulator to make number go up.
@@cattysplat Is that not what he says in the video? He spends some time talking about how people do bizarre moment to moment things in service of the sports team, then he talks about how people do bizarre moment to moment things in video games that are part of a community, then he says "what we actually seek is for our time spent the game to mean something in a bigger context, it's similar to what we just speculated may be part of the reason why so many are drawn to supporting sports teams"
It's also quite interesting the sonic franchise hit their highest high in more than 20 years right before this video came out. I assume it just came out too late to be mentioned here, or just had no natural way to bring it up, but these shorter dev cycle 3d platformers do absolutely have a place on the market, and I hope we see them come back a bit more, we could certainly use them. Games like penny's big breakaway, shadow generations, a hat in time, or the spark the electric jester series have been favorites of mine in the past couple years. (I thoroughly recommend the spark series if you love the gameplay of the sonic adventure games)
I would love to play Astro Bot; it's just stuck on a platform that only true video game hobbyists and dedicated PS lovers would buy, which I am neither. I know I would buy it in a heartbeat if it was on Steam or Switch.
You're wrong about indie 3d platformers. There are quite a few of them. A Hat in Time, Poi, Toree series... and that's just the ones I got off the top of my head, I'm sure I could find more if I wanted to. Making one is not that difficult either. I am working on one right now. On basically $0 budget.
I think this video misses the forest for the trees. Bigger studios funding smaller, safer games WAS something seen in the past. It was even something that benefited Crash and Spyro, as distribution was provided by Universal Interactive. So the forest this essay is missing is the fact studios stopped funding small, safe bets in the pursuit of big spending for big returns. They didn't want small hits with modest reliable returns, they wanted massive cash cows. And this pursuit of cash cows decimated the mid-budget gaming scene for a long time. I feel nuts that the essay never points this out, but finds time for tangents about sports pigs. Also, 'double A' is an awkward turn of phrase. Its mid budget gaming.
You must believe me, in 2014 I was arguing on flame wars online that "you couldn't make the original Katamari Damashi today, nobody makes mid budget weird games any more".
@@natalimoinai also dont like the current definition of indie gaming. A mid budget studio isnt indie. by this definition, Crash Bandicoot was an indie game. Banjo Kazooie was an indie game. Mascot platformer cruft like Croc, Gex, Bubsy, Ty, Sly, and more, would have all been indie games at time of their release by this definition. Its fine they're not indie, but I dont find it useful perspective to cast the mid budget as independent. like, zero budget itchio games made by one or three freaks are indie.
No, 3D platformers are not dead. In a last few years there were some of the best 3D platformers ever. Most of them are indies. The most creative, genre bending and classic, most challenging and most casual, serious and silly, Giant and tiny. 3D platformers are now the best ever.
@@bobsonny mentioned before Hat in Time and Pseudoregalia, but also games like Corn Kids 64, Cavern of Dreams, Blue Fire... What was in video - Astro Bot and Crash 4. Also Psychonauts 2, new Kao the Kangaroo, Kirby and The Forgotten Land, Yooka-Yaylee, countless remasters and remakes...
"Best 3D platformers ever." Is an extremely subjective statement. I love 3D platformers, but not the type of 3D platformers indie devs are making. More specifically I like 3D platformers from 6th gen consoles, games like the Jak and Daxter trilogy, the OG Ratchet and Clank trilogy, or the Sly Cooper games. There are not that many similar games being released today, so it gets a bit annoying hearing people talk about how great indie 3D platformers are, when none of them are what 3D platformer fans like me want.
Indies did revive it though. I don't think it's that much complicated (or expensive yeah, like you said at the end) compared to other genres, but I do think making a good platforming levels require a lot more than making a good action game encounter or AAA style "puzzle". That's also where progression comes in, I hate progression in games because it's a crutch, thow it in any game an it doesn't need to be as good. Yeah platformers kinda lack that, but I don't think it's why they don't sell as much. That would make them less well received (and people do complain when games don't have progression systems, cf. roguelikes or pre-pandemic Sea of Thieves). I'm convinced AAA studios would figure out very quickly how to add dopamine delivery systems that don't require good levels and setpieces if platformers actually sold. They haven't because they don't. The reason imo is mostly aethetics. The same reason why only Nintendo or remakes do sell (or why BG3 and Elden Ring went against "broad appeal" and sold way more than Dark Souls or D:OS2) it's the idea of the games that matter more. And what Sony worked very hard to do for almost two decades now was to prove how mature and expensive looking games were, how AAAs and angry dads were the only thing that mattered, while platforming in itself will always seem more childish and for a long time only supported by Nintendo and indies. This is the antithesis of what modern audiences were trained to expect.
"it's the idea of the games that matter more" this... and also it's easy to underestimate just how brand-centric everything has become, and funnily enough astro bot also makes an overt case :p and i was totally expecting a reference to this in the video
I think a small part of it as well is the cost to content ratio. 3D platformers can usually be beat in less than 10 hours and 100%ed in less than 25, while other single player games take over 20 hours to beat and dozens of hours to 100%. Gamers are more likely to go with the option where they will get the most bang with their buck. I did also really like how you pointed out that all of Sony's exclusives are extremely similar. It is reminiscent of the 2000s where every game was a 3D platformer and the market got bored of the content. I think the same thing is coming to the third person action adventure genre.
Yeah I was scrolling the comments to see if someone else is pointing this out, 3D platformers have very short playtimes and limited replayability unless you're a speedrunner (which I for example am not, I'm a completionist/collectioner) so obviously many people feel like the single player story games or sandbox games or pvp games are more worth their money as you get more playtime out of them (with story games the playthrough is longer and with sandbox and pvp there really is no limit as there isn't an "end" to the game), and what Crash 4 did by upping the difficulty to insane levels and forcing annoying amounts of replaying same levels (or parts of them) for 100% clearly isn't the way to make 3D platformers compete with other games, as evidenced by how it didn't do as well as the remake and how even many dedicated platformer fans were mostly frustrated by the forced lengthening of gametime
I am someone who grew up playing all types of rpgs,strategy games and simulators I picked up Mario Odyssey as my first 3d plataformer since playing Mario 64 as a toddler beat it in like 10 hours felt scammed and never want to buy a 3d plataformer again.
If I had to guess, as games advanced more than just gameplay became a selling point that companies kept going with, even though I still only care 99% about the raw gameplay, that is prolly a losing cause when keeping a company afloat...
I think level progressions, skill trees and crafting lists are often bloated/uninteresting nowadays, as a cheap way to induce feelings of "wow look at all the progression I'm making". Not only does Astrobot seem to use its funds effectively in terms of graphical design, I think they also had good insight/instinct in regards to what makes a game fun to play moment to moment.
I'm sorry but I don't think 3d platformers are dead. Plenty of indie projects have come out this and last year like corn kidz 64, pseudoregalia, and penny's big breakaway. Not to mention the shadow campaign in sonic x shadow generations is primarily 3d and came out a few weeks ago. Considering the space between 3d marios usually, I don't think 3d platformers have gone anywhere so much as are taking a break before the next idea.
I think you're definitely right in grouping together the appeal of all of those games where you do menial tasks along with sports, because I am equally apathetic about both. I did, admittedly, enjoy Minecraft when I was younger, but the creativity was what appealed to me, not the resource gathering and grinding. Those were just limitations that helped shape my creative ambitions. Looking at it that way, it makes sense that I drifted away from enjoying Minecraft as I began to pursue creative passions in life.
I just clicked on this video randomly cuz it looked interesting. I was surprised to hear a familiar voice, I havent watched your gaming videos in years. I didnt know you had a second channel. Nice to see youre still making content
I'm really hoping astro bot stokes an interest in the genre again because there are TONS of excellent indie 3D platformers that need more sales. pseudoregalia, sephonie, anodyne 2, cave of dreams, corn kidz 64, blue fire, demon turf... anyone reading this, please check these games out! the genre is far from dead and it needs your support and your passion!
A lot of people already shared constructive criticisms of this video, which I agree with, but I would even add that beyond the convoluted aspect of your arguments and the weird pig tangent, this video just didn't need to exist, as there has been multiple different 3D platformers that have released this last decade and that are very good. I mean, Astro bot, the game that you keep talking about in this video, is a huge 3D platformer that just released, the genre clearly is alive and well
Well, everything you said about current gen Platformers being very expensive to develop, also applies to Action-Adventure and RPG games, if not even more.
Seven years ago I was making videos about the 3D platformer renaissance. Around that time there was a surge in them that I was thrilled about. Games like Freeze Me, A Hat In Time, Pumpkin Jack, and Clive and Wrench were either being released or in active development. It was also around that time that Crash Bandicoot was getting remakes and new games, Spyro Trilogy was coming out, and more. Before this time there was a total dearth in 3D platformers that I'd barely even thought about until I became obsessed with Lucky's Tale on Oculus Rift. It was early videos from Lucky's Tale that made me go crazy for 3D platformers and I began to hunt them down everywhere. I found quite a few of them. In fact, just recently I realized I'd found and played so many that I've become a bit bored of them. But I'm eagerly looking forward to the next Mario game, Yooka Replaylee and whatever else is coming, especially in VR. I think 3D platformers are actually pretty healthy right now.
Awesome to see a fellow 3d platformer fan who's dived deep to find stuff. I have a playlist on my channel with 3d platformer videos, some of the videos are smaller ones from university projects and indies. Freeze Me is a new one to me, I'll look into it. :)
It's a bit odd that NO indie 3d platformers were even considered, as though selling in the millions (or a single million) was required for a game to have "made it" - and then that bit at the end about Astro Bot probably selling well /proportional to the size of its development team/. If we're going to grant Astro Bot that caveat (and there's no reason we really shouldn't) then we should absolutely grant the same to indie 3d platformers with development teams
@@CarlMakesVideosis this a response to my comment? Because A Hat I Time, Freeze Me, Pumpkin Jack, Clive and Wrench and even the original Lucky's Tale were indies.
@@someoneontheinternet3090 no 3d indies were considered /by Ceave, in the video/, I meant. I bring it up in reply to your comment BECAUSE you listed off so many great indies.
I have a few counterpoint to your claims in this essay 1 ) 3D platformers were not devoid of your 3 big appeals. There IS a progression system in many of the classics as you slowly gain new platforming powers, or evolve your quack-o-ray until the ducks it creates become faming komakazi ducks. They obviously have greater goals to drive for in the form of a story as you try to save the galaxy, or the princess, or get revenge on the witch that killed your mole friend. And though they do lack a online cooperative gameplay element it would be wrong to say these games did not help build a community, especially when they were console exclusives. 2) the 3D platformer to me as an adult has very high appeal over many other genres, in that they are short, not very time consuming and don't take my full attention to fully enjoy. I love FF7 and Persona 5 and The Legend of Heroes, but I'm not turning those games on after work most evenings because I don't feel like focusing enough to enjoy and drink in there stories at the moment. Meanwhile the cheap SunWukon 3D platformer i bought on sale i slowly progressed through every night because it was simple and a low time commitment with a low skill ceiling I don't have to re-master if I put the game down for a longer period of time. 3) And one other point, the entries in all those famous classic 3D platformer that killed their IP had many reasons not mentioned here for why they didn't sell well. Crash Bandicoot was bought by Activision and Naughty Dog quit making them and so they quit reflecting the same great design, and gained some strong tone changes. Rachet and Clank betrayed it's audiences of solo players invested in the franchise by creating a 4 player co-op that didn't make sense in the canon after the last game, and pit you entirely against bland blob monsters. And go figure this was after Insomniac sold and left the IP. And as for the newest games, well Sony locked Rachet and Clack entirely behind a Playstation Pass exclusive pay wall. You can't own it anymore, and the PS5 itself was a high paywall perfectly content PS4 owners were in no rush to overcome quickly.
I don't think 3D platformers are dead. It's more like an indie/AA thing, but looking back, the budget of most 3D platformers in the late 90s or early 2000s would be quite similar to the budget of modern AA/indie platformers. The reality is that AAA 3D platformers have never been something abundant (by our current notion of what "AAA" means). I wouldn't be surprised if the only AAA 3D platformers in history were Super Mario Odyssey, R&C Rift Apart, Astro Bot and Psychonauts 2.
I definitely like the pivot into the kid-angle at the end. The older I get the more I think about how, as adults with a lot of gaming experience, we become incredibly picky and particular in tastes. Games that are technological-, and development masterpieces are judged against every other game you've played in your life, and they often end up looking kinda lacklustre. At least to me. My personal bugbear is Baldur's Gate 3, a game that is very impressive, and I didn't like it. In my mind it is not just competing with Baldur's Gate 2 under the conditions of the market when it was released; it is also competing with how BG2 made me feel when I was a teen. Nothing can ever make that happen again, no matter how good, because I am not the same person. More games need to be made to appeal to younger players with less experience, make them inventive and fun, and in doing so customers will come. New and old. Good experiences are infectious, and I think chasing the dopamine receptors of an audience that is always demanding more is a deadend. But I think creating an environment where people can be given a condensed high-quality media experience, no matter their tastes, will be better for the art, and for the bottom line. It's not exactly a hot take, people with actual industry sway have been saying it for, what, 10 years? 15? But it's interesting that we aren't there YET. Because I think if Banjo Threeie came out this weekend it'd be a best seller even if it was absolute dogshit, but it doesn't have to be. alsocoughdrmfreemultiplatformreleasescough
The thing is that idea could have worked 7 years ago not any more. Kids don’t ply with toys or play single player game the ways kids did during the 90s and 2000. As a Lego and transformers fan I’ve noticed they have leaned more on older audiences because they’re the ones buying. I’m a world where platforms like Fortnite or Roblox are free why buy a toy or game for 20 to 50 dollars.
I can't watch his videos anymore, the guy just keeps yapping and takes too long to get to the point. And then the point has no substance at all. This could've been a 15 minute video.
I agree, but also that's why I love the channel since this is the first time I see a video essayist whose style reflects my thought patterns, so I'm here for it.
It's sad there's that 3D platformers are rather expensive for indie devs to pull off since that's where most iteration and innovation happens nowadays. A Hat In Time still has the best bosses and stage theming in the genre.
I'm loving the video so far. I haven't finished it yet, but I could be wrong, but I think we can save 3D platformers by having a graphical overlay option that displays a gun barrel sticking up from the bottom of the screen.
@@nathaniel4634 Neon White also fits in with Ceave's idea of "games needing to feel meaningful in more than just the moment to moment gameplay", since its focused on improving your speedrun times
3:12 Slightly off-topic, but the question of why indies didn't try filling the niche of 3D platformers more also makes me wonder why seemingly nobody is attempting to fill the now open niche of Classic 3D Zelda dungeons. There is so much potential there
@@jonathanwilliams225 Game Maker's Tool Kit has a good series called Boss Keys that goes into how a bunch of Zelda dungeons's progressions are designed and there's definitely more thought that goes into it then one would expect at a cusory glance.
@@tiagoSS90 Not only that, it really didn't help the case being made at all. Sadly, I think we're seeing some Flanderization on this channel. Early videos used this template of throwing out a bunch of disconnected background and weaving it together, and now that form has become more prominent than actually making cogent arguments. So many of the arguments here are based on gut feeling and cherry picking and are demonstrably just wrong assessments of the games industry and human behavior. It's unfortunate. I would like to see Ceave fundamentally rethink his approach. I think he's a great speaker, but this approach to structuring the content is just... Not good.
3D Platformers are only dead in AAA space. There's dozens of amazing 3D plarformers in indie space. Even ex-Rare employees founded an undie studio, Playtonic. Demon Turf, Pseudoregalia, Corn Kidz 64,Psilosybil - indie 3D platfirners give us banger after banger.
2 of those are the only franchises that semi-consistently make them (and sonic barely counts as a platformer anyway), 1 is a fan game (I assume) and one is a remake
Don't forget about > Lorn's Lure (this ones a banger - 9.5/10 imo) > Pseudoregalia > Neon White > It Takes Two > Gorilla Tag > Chained Together + all the other random fad Bennet Foddy style climbing games
Sadly i think the big problem is the kids, what i mean is that kids have so many FREE games that they can play today, on their phones, that they have no reason to play kid games on console, kids today dont ask for a console and their parents to buy Astro Bot, they ask for Vbucks or whatever is the currency in their F2P game of the moment i think thats the sad reality of not only 3D platformers but laso alot of games in general.
Man I absolutely love how you edit and script your videos, the fact that you can always find a random story like a pig being strung up on a bridge and relate it to something like 3D platformers always astounds me!
I find weird that It takes two, that wasn't released that long ago wasn't mentioned, as it is arguably a 3D platformer and both a comercial and critical success. Great video nonetheless, the connection between sport and videogame engagement was a really clever one I think.
I so glad Jak and Daxter was mentioned briefly at the beginning of the video. One of my favorite platformers that I always come back to and am happy its much more accessible now with the open goal project. The radical departure of game play from Jak to Jak 2 and jak 3 being shooty shooty games was heavily influenced by success of GTA at the time and I think that along with Halo/Modern Warfare was hugely impactful for the direction of gaming in the mid 2000s
I have been wondering about this topic for a while now, and I'm so glad to find that you have made this video! :D Und geee, des is jo absolut fürchterlich wos mit dem armen Putscherl domois passiert is!
Two words: diminishing returns. The audience for a particular product isn't infinite, so investing more and more money to always improve the product will eventually lead to a point where it's no longer profitable, not to mention some of said improvements will become unnoticeable after a while (like the silly pursuit for always more realistic graphics).
As an adult who hates grindy progression based and competitive online games (Minecraft, Stardew and pretty much all you mentioned are super boring to me) I really don't understand these mainstream adults. Why wouldn't you want to have fun in the moment?
This is actually a pretty well studied problem that this video should have actually researched and explained. The short story is that a huge amount of growth in the games market is, in fact, not a broad increase in interest in games, but a testament to the effectiveness of gamification in general. Extrinsic rewards are a shortcut to triggering our pleasure response. Relatively simple tasks that give extrinsic rewards provide more efficient response than intrinsic rewards that may give a better and more durable response, but require more investment. It's the same principle that drives drug abuse and gambling addiction.
One great game y'all might like is yellow taxi goes vroom, it's a 3d platformer where you're a wind up taxi and it has very fun movement and aesthetics.
@@keirontravis Ikr, the game is so fun to navigate even tho you only have one movement option, the game builds on it and some gears are very satisfying to cheese too. I was pondering trying to get into speedrunning thru that game haha
"Most people don't look for games that deliver fun moment to moment gameplay". This seems true and it makes me sad. I'm exaggerating but it seems like consumers really just want passive entertainment, toxic competition, or slot machines. Can we really expect developers to create deep interactive mechanics if that's not what they're rewarded for?
"Games where time spend is meaningful"... I would not call playing any of those "Builder" like games where you spend hundreds of hours just plain grinding "meaningful". But the truth is that nowadays we tend to keep play games that have "no end" to them, until you are bored with it. A good 3D Platformer has a start, a end, and a perfect end when you gathered all the collectibles and killed every boss and "seen it all." That is when the game kicks you out and you need to go and search something new to play.
Spark the electric jester 3 is phenomenal and it actually got a switch port this year. If you can stomach 30fps then I highly recommend it. Playing it on PC is obviously ideal though. Might have the best level design I've seen in any 3D platformer.
When I see the title I immediately thought "Super Mario Odyssey" then I remembered that game is 7 years old. I do have bought 3d All Star and the Spyro Trilogy, but those are remakes I'm sorry for Astro Bot, but I'm still not buying a PS5.
Hey Ceave, you're prob not gonna see this, but i recommend you talk about B3313 (Super Mario 64 The Internal Plexus) someday. Not the development drama, but the game itself. I think it's perfect for a deep dive.
I think with PS3 and 360 gen, there was a large push for realism because the technology was finally able to render humans and realistic environments adequately. Assassin's Creed generally became the new Prince of Persia and its success was apparent. Movement was seen less as a core gameplay element and a supplemental element to combat. Most platformers went back to 2d focus, as the allure of 3d was not as big a selling point anymore and they wanted to focus on the precise movement that 2d platformers were better at.
3D platformers are split between open world design whilst others are linear levels. Astrobot is absolutely a linear game, which cuts down a huge amount of development time and testing. Even Mario Odyssey is a more linear game than Sunshine or 64. Ironically Zelda BotW and TotK are like open world platformers than original Zelda games which were linear dungeons with open world hubs. In the 2000s many big names of the genre were pushing for open worlds and huge amounts of collectables which was a big design difference from the tighter linear design of what made the genre popular.
Wow how have I never heard of Astro Bot? It looks right up my alley.. too bad I don’t have a PlayStation. Need some more 3d platformers on Xbox… Psychonauts 2 was incredible
There are many on Roblox for free, which are on Xbox. I can recommend those, no real reason not to play it. If you want something difficult, Stars Align and Tower World are great. If you want something more chill, there's Super Blox 64, Microwave Dinner, and many more. I could also do a shameless plug for my game, PB the Flying Pig, also a free 3d platformer on Roblox that supports Xbox. It's more chill, heavily inspired by Spyro's reignited trilogy.
I work in a (very) small indie studio and we released our first game earlier this year! 🎉 It's called Promenade. We wanted to emulate the feel of the golden era of 3d platformer but in 2d. With a few twist of our own 😁
I think the reason is that 3D plattformers are a lot harder to design for than 2D plattformers and 3D games(that are actually games and not movies) tend to evolve more in the combat-focussed direction and that was never exactly a strengh of most if not all 3D plattformers. Nothing specific really killed the genre, it just naturally fell out of favor of both developers and audience members for diffrent reasons. The genre did get a revival a few years back and now we are still seeing multiple regular releases, but it just won't ever become mainstream outside of Mario again. Astro Bot is a fluke in a niche market. A happy fluke, but still a fluke.
Hey, thanks for the video. I like when one asks a question and makes me think. Now, i have not fully watched the video yet, so i may stumble upon similar points. So, i think 3D platformers being dead can be chalked up to a lot of things. But I'll be touching on 3. Demographic changes in the wider gaming industry. How games are made in the industry. And finally, how certain genres tend to decline as the years have passed. Starting with the first point, Demographics. As time has gone on, more and more adults have latched on to video games as a hobby, especially in 2020. A lot of the stigma surrounding video games as just kids toys has been slowly going away over the years as games have grown into more sophisticated media. And because of that, there are many more adults playing games these days. And the insdustry shows. Most of the biggest games of the year aren't typically made for children, although they don't necessarily exclude them either. And it's not necessarily that adults don't want to play kids games. Many of them are just as fun as mature titles. It's just that 3d platformers, and moreso the platformer genre in general, have always been more geared to kids. Something about the fundamental gameplay of a 3d platformer doesn't lend itself well to a super serious mature game, though maybe we just have yet to see an example. I personally think this may just be the biggest, or one of the biggest, reasons for the decline of the 3d platformer. With more market share being taken up by adults, there's less incentive to make something solely for children. And that leads right into my second point, that being changes in the industry. As time has gone on, games have only gotten bigger and bigger. In size and scope of course, but most importantly, money. In the eyes of a company, other than Nintendo or the Indies, a 3d platformer is a rather unappealing prospect. Because a good 3d platformer is kinda difficult to make. It has to be of a high quality, but it's also gotta be original in some way, because otherwise it could just be seen as a poor man's version of Mario. It's also unappealing because the audience is rather niche outside Nintendo and indie fans. And most companies simply aren't willing to spend their creative and financial efforts on something so risky. It's a sad state of affairs, but it's what we got. 3d platformers are also unappealing to both indies and AAA companies due to just how polished they need to be to stand out. When you make a 3d platformer, you're competing with Nintendo. And they've been doing this for longer than anyone else, really. So unless you game is really polished and has incredible controls, it becomes very difficult to justify buying because most people who care about 3d platformers can probably play mario 64 or galaxy on command. So 3d platformers are in this weird position where they're too ambitious and risky for AAA companies to wanna do them, but they also require an immense level of polish that takes much more effort from an indie studio. Not that it's impossible. Astro Bot proves this. But in the wider industry, these games are about as appealing as getting a thousand papercuts and then taking a salt and lemon juice bath. For my last point, i want to talk about genres in general, because it applies to 3d platformers. Now, I'm not saying they were a fad, but they also didn't quite have the same staying power as other genres. And they are joined by many others. Point and click adventure games. Zombie games. Battle royale games. Cod clones. These genres were very popular for their time but kinda fell off for multiple reasons. Point and clicks died because they only really existed due to limitations. These days, unless you're purposefully making an homage to them, there's just better ways of making an interactive story. Not to mention thst a lot of the games were obtuse and unfair simply to extend playtime, although that was just common in the entire industry back then. Zombie games dies because the entire entertainment market became overly saturated with them and made people stop caring or finding them interesting. Battle royales faced a very similar issue with oversaturation until a few victors remained. Bitterly ironic, i know. And finally cod clones died because they were just kinda this edgy phase in the late 2000s and early 2010s where every game had to basically look like Mona Lisa smeared in mud. I could also bring up some other genres like CRPGs or Traditional Roguelikes, but i think you get the point. A lot of genres aren't popular anymore for varied reasons. Some drowned in an oversaturated market. Some had audiences that just became too niche in the market to appeal to. And many died simply due to the face they were products of their time. I think the second reason is what applies to 3d platformers. They're very niche and most of their fans are likely Nintendo fans. So for companies it's hard to justify due to the small market, and for indies the level of polish and originality required to compete with the behemoth that is Nintendo just isn't always worth it. I don't think one sole group is responsible for the death of the genre. I think what killed it was simply time. Today, 3d platformers are a niche that most people don't particularly care about. And because of that, there isn't that industry to make them. Because as much as games are works of art, artists need to eat and keep the lights on. Now, do i think the genre is dead? No. Not at all. Because it wasn't that big to begin with. Basically all of the 3d platformers people most remember were on Nintendo consoles and until the Wii, they weren't exactly the most popular choice, given they had to compete with Sony and Microsoft. So i don't think the genre is dead. The only difference now is that there are less big companies who make them. That's it. And i suppose that leaves a final question. What's the future of these games? Probably more and the same. Nintendo being utterly dominant while occasionally another big company or indie dev will come out with a well beloved 3d platformer. Thanks for reading, if you made it to the end. Bye.
One of the 2 genres I want more games from, Super Mario 64 was my first & Yooka Laylee was my last from one of those genres, as for the other, my first was Star Fox 64 & my last was Star Fox Zero. Might consider checking out Fur Squadron Phoenix when it comes out.
Lovely video! Although I’m surprised there wasn’t more mention of modern 3D platformers that were really really good, even if they didn’t have the most financial success like a hat in time or psychonauts 2, both games I found myself absolutely loving.
All of the points you made are very fair. Astro Bot looks amazing and I have no doubt that it would be one of my favourite games of the year if I were to play it. Unfortunately, it's stuck on a console that I have no interest in at all. This, I believe, is the biggest factor in why such a game has so few sales compared to its quality. Your average PS5 owner is probably not interested in it, it would have done better on PC or even the Switch.
Mostly unrelated to the video (It's great) but I love how you update your banner after every video to include something from said video. It's something I havent seen before and its really neat :)
Great video, and I hope your conclusion is right! I was a bit surprised you didn't bring up Penny's Big Breakaway when talking about indies, that's a fairly robust 3D platformer that came out this year (though I don't know if it sold well).
Close, I'd say players themselves found other things interesting. Usually more adult themes. The game dev industry followed suit. There's other stuff, like business in the industry (idea for new games being shut down and unethical monetization), but that's the biggest thing.
I think you have cool things to say, but man, a lot of this video is repeating and stalling. I feel like 30 minutes of this probably shoulda been removed.
I agree, so many times I was like “you just said this like two sentences ago” or “yes, I am wondering about this, that’s why I’m watching this video.” Interesting analysis, but I had to watch on double speed because it was a little annoying.
@@FedoraKirb Tbh about 15 mins i turned 2x speed on, about 2 3rds in i felt like it wasnt going anywhere so i just stopped. I like discussion videos on the genre but man, someone really wanted those midroll ads.
It's his style to meander. If you want something more straight to the point look elsewhere. Nothing wrong with that, but you don't have to watch if it doesn't suit your tastes. I thought it was great, but the conmection to the seemingly unrelated story thing he does was slightly shoehorned in this time. His final points were also a little questionable, but the pacing to get there was no issue for me.
When i heard the resolution of the pig story i went from "who tf would do this?" to "oh yeah thats just another Tuesday for sports fans."
Yeah sports fans can be so stupid sometimes
Since it’s in Austria, I thought it’s Ceave himself who did it😂
I was so confused until he first mentioned the rival teams. Then it instantly made complete sense.
About Astro Bot sales. I think it's not as high it's NOT because less people are interested in platformers, but less people interested in platformers bought PS5. I want to play platformers so I didn't even think about PS5, why should I buy a console with only long 3rd person story driven action adventure games? I bought Switch because all platformers are there.
Also Doom Eternal is also platformer in my eyes ;)
Astro Bot will sell more as Christmas approaches. Plus, price drops will give people more excuse to buy it.
The PS5 nostalgia storyline will also hurt astrobot's sales if it ever comes out on pc. I doubt many pc players want to buy a PS5 circlejerk
Yeah, I think this may be the real reason Astro Bot didn't do well. I'd love to play it, but PS5 is a big investment for a single game. Also Sony's exclusive games policy is strangling the industry and I don't want to support them. But mostly that first one
@@j03man44Doubt
Doom Eternal feels like it activates the same neurons as a Sonic game does, for me.
Astro Bot also reuses a lot of assets from the games that preceded it, Astro Bot Rescue Mission and Astro's Playroom. That probably helped a lot with its budget, and hopefully made it enough of a success in Sony's eyes
About to go on a flight and saw this pop up, quickest download of my life!
I dont think its platformers in general that arent popular, but its platformers on a PS5. Platformer games rarely ever release on PS5 (And when they do, they usually are on other platforms as well). The target audience for platformers doesn't really match the target audience of the PS5. With that being said, I actually respect what sony is doing. Making a smaller and therefore cheaper to make game that isn't going to be as popular, but fulfills a niche market is way more sustainable than following everyone else and making tons of the same 2 types of game over and over. If they continue doing this, i can see it being hugely successful for them.
It Takes Two was an amazing 3d platformer, and it came out in the last few years! it sold over 20 million copies
I mean, there is a huge revival of the 3D platformer scene from Indie games (who can be better than AAA 3D platformer ahah).
Pseudoregalia
Cavern of Dreams
Corn Kidz 64
Tinykin
Hellpie
Spark the Electic Jester 3
The upcoming "The Big Catch" looks fantastic
etc.
The Indie scene as a whole is just better.
I'd add "Demon Turf" and "Yellow Taxi goes Vroom" into there too
@@larrylazer Not wrong. :)
There's also Penny's Big Breakaway made by THE Sonic Mania team.
I don't really know why he didn't mention any of these games
@@TheWrathAbove Someone has mentioned Demon Turf and my neurons have been activated.
Ok, I’m at 14:30 and I don’t disagree entirely and I will finish the video but can I give another opinion if anyone wants to read it? It may not be that people in general aren’t interested…it’s that the kind of people that are: the people that love Mario sunshine and grew up on 64 puzzle platformers…are not the demographic who have a ps5. I love watching other people play ps5 games because I like the graphics and the story as much as the next gal, but no way am I spending almost a grand on a console with maybe 3 games that I actually want to play when my switch has a TON of games that I love to play for way way less and it’s easy to play with my more casual friends. If anyone actually read this:thank you.
Btw I love this channel and your videos so much you’re awesome💜
Nintendo has taken so long to make new 3D Mario and Mario Kart games that I’m nostalgic for the latest entry in those franchises, it’s absurd
That's what happens when they release those two super early in the generation and then avoid making new entries (except maybe bowser's fury) until the generation ends, where said generation has lasted a lot.
@@Ironpecker mk8 is 11
There was a new 3d mario 3 years ago
@@Ironpecker It's so funny to me that they made two Splatoons for the Switch but not a single Mario Kart
@@generalweewee5091You mean a port with a short side game so its not a complete copy paste? 3 hours of content isnt enough to call it a "new game"
43:40
it's worth mentioning that Astro Bot reuses a lot of assets from previous entries (specifically Astro's Playroom) which probably means that the devs could afford to create Astro Bot
Was gonna mention this. Also, the fact that Astro Bot plays on PlayStation nostalgia to help bring in existing fans as well.
I'm wondering if Astro's Playroom was originally greenlit as a cheap way to bring kids to the system, then when they saw the metrics on how many people were playing it, greenlit the full game.
Ceave this is such a frusturating video to watch because so much of it is fluff and it makes me sad. Chapter III is where the real content actually is. Lots of longform content is thriving on youtube, but it is so hard to watch your recent videos as someone who used to be a longtime fan and stopped supporting your patreon because I just couldn't sit through these videos anymore. So much of this video is about making connections to things which are only somewhat relevant to the point; there is lots of style but the actual substance of the video is only really in certain parts.
I really loved your older shorter videos on game design since they were more condensed and usually only focused on a couple topics at most in game design. This video lacks a lot of clarity and it makes it a tough watch since you have to wait for over halfway for things to actually start coming to any real points. I feel like it would be worth considering whether or not these videos actually need to be this long and contain all of these interweaving stories on football and the like since it seemed to have weakly contributed to your main point either way.
I really loved your older content. I feel no ill will towards you or this video, just wanted to state my thoughts.
The year is 2024, Tyler The Creator is threatening to make grape jokes again, JD Vance has resorted to grocery store eyeliner, Disney execs are secretly floating the idea of animated remakes to their live action remakes, and I'm reading a comment that perfectly describes my thoughts on why I'm no longer enjoying Ceave's videos.
...it's 1998, Ocarina of T-
@@makeitthrough_ Definitely watch MatthewMatosis if you like videos regarding game design. His videos are of the highest quality and don't meander like this at all.
Especially his later content before he retired. His videos made clear to me a lot of ideas in game design that I could never put words to and honestly he might be the best at it. He even touches on why 3D platformers might have actually died which is the fact that you have to align the camera before you can make a confident jump and the issues with depth perception and control of a character in 3D Space. Context Sensitivity and the Micro video series touch on these points. In 2D space you can have a fixed perspective camera that is consistent and it is much easier to be confident in where you character will go since you don't have to measure your characters placement in 3D with an ever changing camera perspective.
I get where you're coming from and your point 100%. These videos are overdramatic, very drawn out and lengthy, slow, but that is also exactly why I love this style so much. For me, their are so many channels that go very in-depth about game design. While that is what Ceave does here, Its in a way I feel is more fun than just out right explaining game philosophy. He almost takes a goofy detective stance that, even though I know the answer to these "cases" I still have far too much fun watching to see how he get to those points. I'm saying I get what you mean, but I think his performance makes up for it, for me at least.
@@DauntlessBlade___ I totally agree, not only can you learn something interesting about games with those videos, but it also feels like you're going on an adventure to get there. For me, that makes these videos highly entertaining and thought-provoking all throughout.
Additionally, I also quite enjoy learning about all the connections Ceave is able to make.
@@Papierkorb2292 i agree as well, thing is that the sports thing will resonate in my head for a while, both because Ceave took his sweet time on it, but also because it was just a unique point. The fact that he meanders and stays on topics for a while is what makes them work for me, to be honest. It's not just "people prefer this type of game", it's "Here, let me tell you a story", and you have intrigue of what the story is for, about, and why. And the story ends up explaining why people prefer the type of game way better
I'm glad that not once was DK64 referred to "The game that killed the 3d genre"
Which would be incorrect, there was a gazillion of 3D platformers in PS2 era. Tak and the Power of Juju, Vexx, Ratchet and Clank, Billy Hatcher, Kao the Kangaroo, Sly Cooper, Ty the Tasmanian Tiger had a full trilogy.
If N64/PS1 was Golden Age of 3D platformers, PS2 was the Silver Age.
He has no style
His face is long
This kong
Did nothing wrong
I really hate it when people complain about collecting things in collect-a-thons... like that's the whole point? Do you complain that you have to shoot things in a shoot-em-up? Or that you have to match colors/shapes in puzzle games? Admittedly _sometimes_ they go a little overboard, like 900 Koroks is too many, but then you only "need" to find less than half of them to max out your inventory, so it all works out.
@@Wendy_O._Koopa The problem was really lack of character swapping on demand. I wonder if the game was originally designed with this in mind, and some technical limitations prevented shipping with the feature.
@@Wendy_O._Koopa When every single game at the time is about collecting random items, it gets exhausting. I'm sure you were complaining about the amount of MOBAs in 2015, and the amount of team based class shooters and battle royales in 2020.
it's funny watching this after i got done playing shadow generations, which has been such a fun 3D platformer for me that i'm gonna replay the shit out of
I still think the lack of popularity of platformers has to do with the genre being seen as “for children”. Mario obviously exists as an exception due to its popularity. Mario has already established itself as an IP for everyone, including adults. But the average person playing more “mature” games is going to look at a platformer and believe it is made for kids. They don’t want their friends thinking they like to play childish games. And so the unfortunate reality is that they just don’t realize that they can have fun playing those types of games, and that no one else really cares what they play.
I'm not sure I fully agree with that last point. I'm not sure saying Astro bot isn't smart for reusing mechanics and assets, I just think people who played Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze think discarding a gimmick and asset is the norm but 3D platformers were born from reusing assets. The golden age of of 3D platformers (and the 5th gen in general) utilized asset reuse confidently. It's why games like Crash had stage themes and why they all had 1-2 sequels with the same assets.
I also think it's strange to posit that asking the player to showcase a greater mastery over an established idea is bad game design when it's like the cornerstone of Platformer design. Don't let Tropical Freeze fans know this, but it actually does this a lot, it's just masterful at hiding it.
DK Tropical Freeze is a 2D platformer and Crash is a linear 3D platformer that mostly plays like a 2.5D platformer. There is a lot of nuance between different platformers, many consider when Open World became popular in the early 2000s, it became a trend that 3D platformers chased, often to their detriment.
I'd consider myself to be well within the target demographic of Astro Bot. By that, I mean that I love 3D platformers, own a PS5, and, in response to some points raised in this video, don't have a lot of interest in live service games or grindy online progression-based games. With all that being said, I did not buy a copy of Astro Bot. I bought half a copy of Astro Bot, with the other half purchased by my friend. My friend played it first, then handed it off to me. Games with online multiplayer and games with longer runtimes would probably have required us to each buy our own copy. Just an anecdote to show where some of the sales may be going.
I played my roommates copy on their PS5. Beat it, 100%, plat trophy. Didnt drop a dime on the game.
Now i feel a little guilty.
That's more of the nature of short games. It's why open world, online multiplayer and mountains of cutscenes and dialog to push a game to be longer, became the industry standard.
Demon turf, corn kidz 64, psuedoregallia. Crash 4, bowsers fury, Sonic frontiers and shadow generations,
Those 7 came out this decade, you want more recent 3D platformers, look at what nitro rad has covered in his rad 3D platformers series. The genre didn’t die, it’s just being drowned out.
Did you even _watch_ the video?
@ I’m sorry, I was just put off by the title.
@@hgmd3284 Well, he specifically mentions Crash 4 by name and it's part of the narrative. As well as Sonic, Mario, Ratchet & Clank, Jak & Daxter... maybe he should have titled the video _"Is_ The 3D Platformer Dead?" or something. Because to sum up the video, he comes to the conclusion that "No it is not" (an a _lot_ more words). So you're essentially agreeing with him... so I guess I really have nothing to complain about? Never mind then.
I dont think I've ever disagreed with Ceave as much as in this theory. My personal opinion is that Astro bot sales were not as good as they expected, is that it was a PS5 exclusive. PS5 is not only extremely expensive cutting out the younger market, the PS series is not known for platformers. Their market is not people who particularly like platformers.
I personally would love to see a new 3d platformer on par with banjo kazooie come out on steam. Hell, I would argue banjo kazooie has progression. It might not be extensive, but just like in Mario, it has a collect all of these things system. It has powers that you unlock over gameplay.
I would say in fact that the reason there's not many 3d platformers because not only is it difficult to design well and even include replay value, it is very hard to monitize beyond the initial purchase. And in fact it's the exponential increase in design difficulty that we see so many 2D indie platformers, but so little 3D indie platformers. Because it is in exponential increase in difficulty between 2D and 3D of making the game look and feel good and interesting.
Something you didn't touch on: a studio can either spend 3 years making a giant AAA game, or they can make like 2 or 3 medium sized games in that time and make even more money. Even not counting the "putting all your eggs in one basket" argument (since most CEOs are incapable of grasping small but deadly risks), it still makes sense from a business perspective to have 3 games that profit 100 million each than one game that profits 200 million
Most developers seem to understand that logic well enough, it's mostly the western ones that seem to struggle with it it seems.
Nintendo really understands that well (aside from whatever they are doing with GameFreak): big games like mainline Mario platformer and mainline Zelda titles are rare, but there's tons of smaller games that release constantly (Mario party, Mario kart, Mario tennis, etc)
Many devs everywhere understands it, but the publishers with the money doesn't.
The people with the money does not care for slow and steady and safe. They see this as opportunity loss... And thus they don't do it :( which is very sad. And a lot of it has to do with how the stick market works. It really makes so many industries and businesses worse, as all is about short term profits, and buying/selling. Horrible for actually making good long term strategies and actually good products...
@@laytonjr6601 The problem is precicely that they aren't really doing much of anything with Gamefreak. Unlike with most Nintendo published games Nintendo doesn't own Gamefreak, they own 30% of The Pomemon Company which Gamefreak also owns 30% of. As such much of what happens with pokemon is very much out of Nintendo's hands because they only have so much sway over the direction of the franchise and basically none over the devlopment of the games beyond it having to be exclusive to Nintendo consoles.
@@laytonjr6601 I really like that Nintendo releases a lot of AA games with a good amount of variety. However Nintendo has some advantages that most publisher doesn't: they already have a well established reputation, with many regonizable mascots, people get excited about the Nintendo directs, so if Nintendo decides to make a new AA game they can get enough attention to make it profitable, but most publishers struggle to be able to capture the attention of the players.
Also, the fact that Nintendo is a console manufacturer helps, because having a large amount of exclusive games with a good reputation elevates the reputation of their console, which allows them to sell more consoles and that's very profitable in the long run, even if the games don't sell that well (for example, all Xenoblade Chronicles games have sold poorly considering that they are very big titles, however that gives Nintendo the reputation of having very good RPGs among their first party titles and that pushes the idea that Nintendo has something good for everyone).
I feel like the last several videos on this channel have been far too hung up on trying to weave some overly complicated frame in ways that are far too dragged out, and then it just doesn't pay off.
The entire pig side story had nothing to do with the conclusion. If the conclusion is that people gravitate towards external reward structures rather than intrinsic rewards, 'sports fans are crazy' does nothing to bolster that point.
There are also a lot of arguments here that are also pretty clearly not supported by data. Kids are not any more resistant to extrinsic reward structures than adults.
The video also seems to indicate that interest in games with primarily intrinsic reward structures is entirely collapsing, but that doesn't really comport with the broad success of many indie 2D platformer or puzzle games.
In fact, I'd argue that many of the most popular platformers have in-built extrinsic reward structured in the form of collectables. While these systems may be less predatory than loot boxes, they are not materially different than the extrinsic reward systems that have continued to drive extremely popular character action games, RPGs, etc.
I know you mentioned you were having retention problems. I suspect the general approach of overwraught storytelling that compromises a comprehensive analysis of the actual topic is probably a lot of what's driving that.
Bro wanted to talk about a funny story about his favorite football team in his you tube video. It's not the anecdote I would have chosen to tie into the video topic, but the point that "when you are so deep in the weeds of a communal activity ridiculous tasks seem normal and reasonable" is a perfectly reasonable way to connect hanging a pig of the other team to strip mining for diamonds in minecraft for a group base.
Now as far as sources go "the games the people in my social circle put the most hours into" is not a terribly scientific set of data, but I see nothing wrong with tying in the notional that "as he grew up he observed his peers preferences of games shift to be either games with a communal core or games that re-frame simple actions as a part of a greater whole" into the conversation about how risk adverse publishers are becoming more an more unwilling to release games that are not either live service slop or long form Red Dead action/narrative games thus connecting industry trends to behavior of people he can observe.
As far as channel health goes this video is quite long in relation to what it has to say, probably could be cut down by 20 minutes without losing much, although Ceave built the channel on revived success from long meandering cozy content and I would be hesitant to stray away from what works.
@brennantmi5063 He specifically indicated in the previous video that it *wasn't* working and his reach has been falling. As someone who would like Ceave to succeed, I was shedding light on things about this video that I personally found would have caused me to click away if it were by almost anyone else.
Your own post in a few paragraph makes reasonable connections to things that this video in over half an hour did not. I think that's telling.
I still think the pig story is a giant non-sequitur. I don't think going way over the line while falling into an abyss of out group bias and peer pressure is the same as being willing to perform an otherwise rote task for some external reward. A better analogy would be to bullying in text/voice chat, which really wasn't mentioned at all. This entire story was positioned as some grand pillar of the discussion, but it's barely relevant to the actual thesis at all.
It reminds me a video talking about speedrunning where the creator talks about a singer Billy Murray and Roman triumph, both that had almost nothing to do with speedrunning.
@@brennantmi5063 Would have been good to relate this to parallels in how live service games make us do inherently crazy things, like grind a game like a job everyday loyally, rather than shop around for fun experiences, because we are comfortable playing with friends in our chore simulator to make number go up.
@@cattysplat Is that not what he says in the video? He spends some time talking about how people do bizarre moment to moment things in service of the sports team, then he talks about how people do bizarre moment to moment things in video games that are part of a community, then he says "what we actually seek is for our time spent the game to mean something in a bigger context, it's similar to what we just speculated may be part of the reason why so many are drawn to supporting sports teams"
It's also quite interesting the sonic franchise hit their highest high in more than 20 years right before this video came out. I assume it just came out too late to be mentioned here, or just had no natural way to bring it up, but these shorter dev cycle 3d platformers do absolutely have a place on the market, and I hope we see them come back a bit more, we could certainly use them. Games like penny's big breakaway, shadow generations, a hat in time, or the spark the electric jester series have been favorites of mine in the past couple years. (I thoroughly recommend the spark series if you love the gameplay of the sonic adventure games)
Metascore
Don't take Metascore too seriously. Users can rate a game without ever purchasing or playing either.
I would love to play Astro Bot; it's just stuck on a platform that only true video game hobbyists and dedicated PS lovers would buy, which I am neither. I know I would buy it in a heartbeat if it was on Steam or Switch.
Same. I love 3d platformers but unless it comes to steam or switch I'm not getting it.
Same
You're wrong about indie 3d platformers. There are quite a few of them. A Hat in Time, Poi, Toree series... and that's just the ones I got off the top of my head, I'm sure I could find more if I wanted to.
Making one is not that difficult either. I am working on one right now. On basically $0 budget.
I think this video misses the forest for the trees. Bigger studios funding smaller, safer games WAS something seen in the past. It was even something that benefited Crash and Spyro, as distribution was provided by Universal Interactive.
So the forest this essay is missing is the fact studios stopped funding small, safe bets in the pursuit of big spending for big returns. They didn't want small hits with modest reliable returns, they wanted massive cash cows. And this pursuit of cash cows decimated the mid-budget gaming scene for a long time. I feel nuts that the essay never points this out, but finds time for tangents about sports pigs.
Also, 'double A' is an awkward turn of phrase. Its mid budget gaming.
You must believe me, in 2014 I was arguing on flame wars online that "you couldn't make the original Katamari Damashi today, nobody makes mid budget weird games any more".
Look towards indies
@@natalimoina indies are also majorly shit, stop waving the indie flag like it's one monolithic nation, and start naming actual good indie studios.
I totally agree
@@natalimoinai also dont like the current definition of indie gaming.
A mid budget studio isnt indie. by this definition, Crash Bandicoot was an indie game. Banjo Kazooie was an indie game. Mascot platformer cruft like Croc, Gex, Bubsy, Ty, Sly, and more, would have all been indie games at time of their release by this definition. Its fine they're not indie, but I dont find it useful perspective to cast the mid budget as independent.
like, zero budget itchio games made by one or three freaks are indie.
No, 3D platformers are not dead. In a last few years there were some of the best 3D platformers ever. Most of them are indies. The most creative, genre bending and classic, most challenging and most casual, serious and silly, Giant and tiny. 3D platformers are now the best ever.
Can you give a list? I only know of Pseudoregalia
So...list some to back up your claim?
@@bobsonny mentioned before Hat in Time and Pseudoregalia, but also games like Corn Kids 64, Cavern of Dreams, Blue Fire... What was in video - Astro Bot and Crash 4. Also Psychonauts 2, new Kao the Kangaroo, Kirby and The Forgotten Land, Yooka-Yaylee, countless remasters and remakes...
@@michanowak7060 Ill add spark the electric jester 3, Yellow Taxi goes vroom vroom, Marble it up, the big catch ect
"Best 3D platformers ever." Is an extremely subjective statement. I love 3D platformers, but not the type of 3D platformers indie devs are making. More specifically I like 3D platformers from 6th gen consoles, games like the Jak and Daxter trilogy, the OG Ratchet and Clank trilogy, or the Sly Cooper games. There are not that many similar games being released today, so it gets a bit annoying hearing people talk about how great indie 3D platformers are, when none of them are what 3D platformer fans like me want.
This is the main channel now
did you know that ceave has a quirky little side channel explaining mario maker mechanics?
*cocks gun* always has been
Indies did revive it though.
I don't think it's that much complicated (or expensive yeah, like you said at the end) compared to other genres, but I do think making a good platforming levels require a lot more than making a good action game encounter or AAA style "puzzle".
That's also where progression comes in, I hate progression in games because it's a crutch, thow it in any game an it doesn't need to be as good. Yeah platformers kinda lack that, but I don't think it's why they don't sell as much. That would make them less well received (and people do complain when games don't have progression systems, cf. roguelikes or pre-pandemic Sea of Thieves). I'm convinced AAA studios would figure out very quickly how to add dopamine delivery systems that don't require good levels and setpieces if platformers actually sold. They haven't because they don't.
The reason imo is mostly aethetics. The same reason why only Nintendo or remakes do sell (or why BG3 and Elden Ring went against "broad appeal" and sold way more than Dark Souls or D:OS2) it's the idea of the games that matter more. And what Sony worked very hard to do for almost two decades now was to prove how mature and expensive looking games were, how AAAs and angry dads were the only thing that mattered, while platforming in itself will always seem more childish and for a long time only supported by Nintendo and indies. This is the antithesis of what modern audiences were trained to expect.
"it's the idea of the games that matter more" this...
and also it's easy to underestimate just how brand-centric everything has become, and funnily enough astro bot also makes an overt case :p and i was totally expecting a reference to this in the video
I think a small part of it as well is the cost to content ratio. 3D platformers can usually be beat in less than 10 hours and 100%ed in less than 25, while other single player games take over 20 hours to beat and dozens of hours to 100%. Gamers are more likely to go with the option where they will get the most bang with their buck.
I did also really like how you pointed out that all of Sony's exclusives are extremely similar. It is reminiscent of the 2000s where every game was a 3D platformer and the market got bored of the content. I think the same thing is coming to the third person action adventure genre.
Yeah I was scrolling the comments to see if someone else is pointing this out, 3D platformers have very short playtimes and limited replayability unless you're a speedrunner (which I for example am not, I'm a completionist/collectioner) so obviously many people feel like the single player story games or sandbox games or pvp games are more worth their money as you get more playtime out of them (with story games the playthrough is longer and with sandbox and pvp there really is no limit as there isn't an "end" to the game), and what Crash 4 did by upping the difficulty to insane levels and forcing annoying amounts of replaying same levels (or parts of them) for 100% clearly isn't the way to make 3D platformers compete with other games, as evidenced by how it didn't do as well as the remake and how even many dedicated platformer fans were mostly frustrated by the forced lengthening of gametime
I am someone who grew up playing all types of rpgs,strategy games and simulators I picked up Mario Odyssey as my first 3d plataformer since playing Mario 64 as a toddler beat it in like 10 hours felt scammed and never want to buy a 3d plataformer again.
If I had to guess, as games advanced more than just gameplay became a selling point that companies kept going with, even though I still only care 99% about the raw gameplay, that is prolly a losing cause when keeping a company afloat...
Don't sleep on Psychonauts 2
I think level progressions, skill trees and crafting lists are often bloated/uninteresting nowadays, as a cheap way to induce feelings of "wow look at all the progression I'm making".
Not only does Astrobot seem to use its funds effectively in terms of graphical design, I think they also had good insight/instinct in regards to what makes a game fun to play moment to moment.
I'm sorry but I don't think 3d platformers are dead. Plenty of indie projects have come out this and last year like corn kidz 64, pseudoregalia, and penny's big breakaway. Not to mention the shadow campaign in sonic x shadow generations is primarily 3d and came out a few weeks ago. Considering the space between 3d marios usually, I don't think 3d platformers have gone anywhere so much as are taking a break before the next idea.
I think you're definitely right in grouping together the appeal of all of those games where you do menial tasks along with sports, because I am equally apathetic about both.
I did, admittedly, enjoy Minecraft when I was younger, but the creativity was what appealed to me, not the resource gathering and grinding. Those were just limitations that helped shape my creative ambitions. Looking at it that way, it makes sense that I drifted away from enjoying Minecraft as I began to pursue creative passions in life.
I just clicked on this video randomly cuz it looked interesting. I was surprised to hear a familiar voice, I havent watched your gaming videos in years. I didnt know you had a second channel. Nice to see youre still making content
I'm really hoping astro bot stokes an interest in the genre again because there are TONS of excellent indie 3D platformers that need more sales. pseudoregalia, sephonie, anodyne 2, cave of dreams, corn kidz 64, blue fire, demon turf... anyone reading this, please check these games out! the genre is far from dead and it needs your support and your passion!
Yellow taxi goes vroom is also amazing
A lot of people already shared constructive criticisms of this video, which I agree with, but I would even add that beyond the convoluted aspect of your arguments and the weird pig tangent, this video just didn't need to exist, as there has been multiple different 3D platformers that have released this last decade and that are very good. I mean, Astro bot, the game that you keep talking about in this video, is a huge 3D platformer that just released, the genre clearly is alive and well
Well, everything you said about current gen Platformers being very expensive to develop, also applies to Action-Adventure and RPG games, if not even more.
Seven years ago I was making videos about the 3D platformer renaissance. Around that time there was a surge in them that I was thrilled about. Games like Freeze Me, A Hat In Time, Pumpkin Jack, and Clive and Wrench were either being released or in active development. It was also around that time that Crash Bandicoot was getting remakes and new games, Spyro Trilogy was coming out, and more. Before this time there was a total dearth in 3D platformers that I'd barely even thought about until I became obsessed with Lucky's Tale on Oculus Rift. It was early videos from Lucky's Tale that made me go crazy for 3D platformers and I began to hunt them down everywhere. I found quite a few of them. In fact, just recently I realized I'd found and played so many that I've become a bit bored of them. But I'm eagerly looking forward to the next Mario game, Yooka Replaylee and whatever else is coming, especially in VR. I think 3D platformers are actually pretty healthy right now.
Awesome to see a fellow 3d platformer fan who's dived deep to find stuff. I have a playlist on my channel with 3d platformer videos, some of the videos are smaller ones from university projects and indies. Freeze Me is a new one to me, I'll look into it. :)
It's a bit odd that NO indie 3d platformers were even considered, as though selling in the millions (or a single million) was required for a game to have "made it" - and then that bit at the end about Astro Bot probably selling well /proportional to the size of its development team/. If we're going to grant Astro Bot that caveat (and there's no reason we really shouldn't) then we should absolutely grant the same to indie 3d platformers with development teams
@@CarlMakesVideosis this a response to my comment? Because A Hat I Time, Freeze Me, Pumpkin Jack, Clive and Wrench and even the original Lucky's Tale were indies.
@@someoneontheinternet3090 no 3d indies were considered /by Ceave, in the video/, I meant. I bring it up in reply to your comment BECAUSE you listed off so many great indies.
3d platformers never died, new trends just took off
I have a few counterpoint to your claims in this essay
1 ) 3D platformers were not devoid of your 3 big appeals. There IS a progression system in many of the classics as you slowly gain new platforming powers, or evolve your quack-o-ray until the ducks it creates become faming komakazi ducks. They obviously have greater goals to drive for in the form of a story as you try to save the galaxy, or the princess, or get revenge on the witch that killed your mole friend. And though they do lack a online cooperative gameplay element it would be wrong to say these games did not help build a community, especially when they were console exclusives.
2) the 3D platformer to me as an adult has very high appeal over many other genres, in that they are short, not very time consuming and don't take my full attention to fully enjoy. I love FF7 and Persona 5 and The Legend of Heroes, but I'm not turning those games on after work most evenings because I don't feel like focusing enough to enjoy and drink in there stories at the moment. Meanwhile the cheap SunWukon 3D platformer i bought on sale i slowly progressed through every night because it was simple and a low time commitment with a low skill ceiling I don't have to re-master if I put the game down for a longer period of time.
3) And one other point, the entries in all those famous classic 3D platformer that killed their IP had many reasons not mentioned here for why they didn't sell well. Crash Bandicoot was bought by Activision and Naughty Dog quit making them and so they quit reflecting the same great design, and gained some strong tone changes. Rachet and Clank betrayed it's audiences of solo players invested in the franchise by creating a 4 player co-op that didn't make sense in the canon after the last game, and pit you entirely against bland blob monsters. And go figure this was after Insomniac sold and left the IP. And as for the newest games, well Sony locked Rachet and Clack entirely behind a Playstation Pass exclusive pay wall. You can't own it anymore, and the PS5 itself was a high paywall perfectly content PS4 owners were in no rush to overcome quickly.
I don't think 3D platformers are dead. It's more like an indie/AA thing, but looking back, the budget of most 3D platformers in the late 90s or early 2000s would be quite similar to the budget of modern AA/indie platformers. The reality is that AAA 3D platformers have never been something abundant (by our current notion of what "AAA" means).
I wouldn't be surprised if the only AAA 3D platformers in history were Super Mario Odyssey, R&C Rift Apart, Astro Bot and Psychonauts 2.
I definitely like the pivot into the kid-angle at the end. The older I get the more I think about how, as adults with a lot of gaming experience, we become incredibly picky and particular in tastes. Games that are technological-, and development masterpieces are judged against every other game you've played in your life, and they often end up looking kinda lacklustre. At least to me. My personal bugbear is Baldur's Gate 3, a game that is very impressive, and I didn't like it. In my mind it is not just competing with Baldur's Gate 2 under the conditions of the market when it was released; it is also competing with how BG2 made me feel when I was a teen. Nothing can ever make that happen again, no matter how good, because I am not the same person.
More games need to be made to appeal to younger players with less experience, make them inventive and fun, and in doing so customers will come. New and old. Good experiences are infectious, and I think chasing the dopamine receptors of an audience that is always demanding more is a deadend. But I think creating an environment where people can be given a condensed high-quality media experience, no matter their tastes, will be better for the art, and for the bottom line.
It's not exactly a hot take, people with actual industry sway have been saying it for, what, 10 years? 15? But it's interesting that we aren't there YET. Because I think if Banjo Threeie came out this weekend it'd be a best seller even if it was absolute dogshit, but it doesn't have to be.
alsocoughdrmfreemultiplatformreleasescough
The thing is that idea could have worked 7 years ago not any more. Kids don’t ply with toys or play single player game the ways kids did during the 90s and 2000. As a Lego and transformers fan I’ve noticed they have leaned more on older audiences because they’re the ones buying. I’m a world where platforms like Fortnite or Roblox are free why buy a toy or game for 20 to 50 dollars.
Man, this video just makes me want to make a 3D platformer
NEW CEAVE VIDEO LETS GOOOOO!!!!
YESSIR
1:40 is hilarious for a Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Fan. Especially Explorers of sky.
Huh? What do you mean? PMD got a zero before?
this video felt especially meandering
I can't watch his videos anymore, the guy just keeps yapping and takes too long to get to the point. And then the point has no substance at all. This could've been a 15 minute video.
Way too much talk about sportsball without being able to really relate it back to 3D platformers.
I agree, but also that's why I love the channel since this is the first time I see a video essayist whose style reflects my thought patterns, so I'm here for it.
It's sad there's that 3D platformers are rather expensive for indie devs to pull off since that's where most iteration and innovation happens nowadays. A Hat In Time still has the best bosses and stage theming in the genre.
Sonic want to have a word with you, it's a notable and selling 3d platforming game NOT mentioned
i knew concord would be recorded in the history books, but didn’t think Astrobot would. Sony here teaching the industry EXACTLY what money gets you
But they also shut down the studio that made Astrobot :( It was their last project.
@@BubblingBrookeNo they didn't lmao, this is a straight up lie.
@Victini0510 OK. I didn't know part of Japan Studio got spun off, but Japan Studio got shut down. That part is true.
@@BubblingBrooke yeah but the game was not made by japan studio but team asobi. And japan studio shutting down is sadly old news
I'm loving the video so far. I haven't finished it yet, but I could be wrong, but I think we can save 3D platformers by having a graphical overlay option that displays a gun barrel sticking up from the bottom of the screen.
Neon White did that and it seemed to have worked
@@nathaniel4634 Neon White also fits in with Ceave's idea of "games needing to feel meaningful in more than just the moment to moment gameplay", since its focused on improving your speedrun times
3:12 Slightly off-topic, but the question of why indies didn't try filling the niche of 3D platformers more also makes me wonder why seemingly nobody is attempting to fill the now open niche of Classic 3D Zelda dungeons. There is so much potential there
I would imagine that intricately designed dungeons are much harder to design than it seems…
@@jonathanwilliams225 Game Maker's Tool Kit has a good series called Boss Keys that goes into how a bunch of Zelda dungeons's progressions are designed and there's definitely more thought that goes into it then one would expect at a cusory glance.
why put the whole pig part on the video just to be demonetized?
@@tiagoSS90 Not only that, it really didn't help the case being made at all.
Sadly, I think we're seeing some Flanderization on this channel. Early videos used this template of throwing out a bunch of disconnected background and weaving it together, and now that form has become more prominent than actually making cogent arguments.
So many of the arguments here are based on gut feeling and cherry picking and are demonstrably just wrong assessments of the games industry and human behavior.
It's unfortunate. I would like to see Ceave fundamentally rethink his approach. I think he's a great speaker, but this approach to structuring the content is just... Not good.
For real! It feels like such a tone breaker as well to hear a grimly-told story about the pig in the middle of this video about my favourite genre.
3D Platformers are only dead in AAA space. There's dozens of amazing 3D plarformers in indie space. Even ex-Rare employees founded an undie studio, Playtonic.
Demon Turf, Pseudoregalia, Corn Kidz 64,Psilosybil - indie 3D platfirners give us banger after banger.
You didn’t need 31 minutes to finally get to the main topic of the video. A lot of what came before could’ve been said in a few minutes.
> Astro Bot
> Shadow Generations
> Bowser's Fury
> Celeste 64
> Yooka Replaylee
"guys where did 3D platformers go???z
2 of those are the only franchises that semi-consistently make them (and sonic barely counts as a platformer anyway), 1 is a fan game (I assume) and one is a remake
@dappitydingdong1219 Celeste 64 is not a fan game! It's an official spinoff made by the original developers of Celeste.
Don't forget about
> Lorn's Lure (this ones a banger - 9.5/10 imo)
> Pseudoregalia
> Neon White
> It Takes Two
> Gorilla Tag
> Chained Together + all the other random fad Bennet Foddy style climbing games
That list is kind of ass tbh. Not giving me confidence that 3D platformers are an alive genre
@@cassidy8307 "kind of ass" and it's four of the best games to come out since the turn of the decade
Sadly i think the big problem is the kids, what i mean is that kids have so many FREE games that they can play today, on their phones, that they have no reason to play kid games on console, kids today dont ask for a console and their parents to buy Astro Bot, they ask for Vbucks or whatever is the currency in their F2P game of the moment i think thats the sad reality of not only 3D platformers but laso alot of games in general.
Man I absolutely love how you edit and script your videos, the fact that you can always find a random story like a pig being strung up on a bridge and relate it to something like 3D platformers always astounds me!
I find weird that It takes two, that wasn't released that long ago wasn't mentioned, as it is arguably a 3D platformer and both a comercial and critical success. Great video nonetheless, the connection between sport and videogame engagement was a really clever one I think.
I so glad Jak and Daxter was mentioned briefly at the beginning of the video. One of my favorite platformers that I always come back to and am happy its much more accessible now with the open goal project. The radical departure of game play from Jak to Jak 2 and jak 3 being shooty shooty games was heavily influenced by success of GTA at the time and I think that along with Halo/Modern Warfare was hugely impactful for the direction of gaming in the mid 2000s
I have been wondering about this topic for a while now, and I'm so glad to find that you have made this video! :D
Und geee, des is jo absolut fürchterlich wos mit dem armen Putscherl domois passiert is!
Two words: diminishing returns. The audience for a particular product isn't infinite, so investing more and more money to always improve the product will eventually lead to a point where it's no longer profitable, not to mention some of said improvements will become unnoticeable after a while (like the silly pursuit for always more realistic graphics).
As an adult who hates grindy progression based and competitive online games (Minecraft, Stardew and pretty much all you mentioned are super boring to me) I really don't understand these mainstream adults. Why wouldn't you want to have fun in the moment?
This is actually a pretty well studied problem that this video should have actually researched and explained.
The short story is that a huge amount of growth in the games market is, in fact, not a broad increase in interest in games, but a testament to the effectiveness of gamification in general.
Extrinsic rewards are a shortcut to triggering our pleasure response. Relatively simple tasks that give extrinsic rewards provide more efficient response than intrinsic rewards that may give a better and more durable response, but require more investment. It's the same principle that drives drug abuse and gambling addiction.
One great game y'all might like is yellow taxi goes vroom, it's a 3d platformer where you're a wind up taxi and it has very fun movement and aesthetics.
dude YES i've played through that game so many times and i'm like 3D platformers are Not Dead
@@keirontravis Ikr, the game is so fun to navigate even tho you only have one movement option, the game builds on it and some gears are very satisfying to cheese too. I was pondering trying to get into speedrunning thru that game haha
I never have any clue where the tangets in your videos will go, but they are very entertaining.
"Most people don't look for games that deliver fun moment to moment gameplay". This seems true and it makes me sad. I'm exaggerating but it seems like consumers really just want passive entertainment, toxic competition, or slot machines. Can we really expect developers to create deep interactive mechanics if that's not what they're rewarded for?
"Games where time spend is meaningful"... I would not call playing any of those "Builder" like games where you spend hundreds of hours just plain grinding "meaningful". But the truth is that nowadays we tend to keep play games that have "no end" to them, until you are bored with it. A good 3D Platformer has a start, a end, and a perfect end when you gathered all the collectibles and killed every boss and "seen it all." That is when the game kicks you out and you need to go and search something new to play.
Spark the electric jester 3 is phenomenal and it actually got a switch port this year. If you can stomach 30fps then I highly recommend it. Playing it on PC is obviously ideal though.
Might have the best level design I've seen in any 3D platformer.
When I see the title I immediately thought "Super Mario Odyssey" then I remembered that game is 7 years old. I do have bought 3d All Star and the Spyro Trilogy, but those are remakes
I'm sorry for Astro Bot, but I'm still not buying a PS5.
Hey Ceave, you're prob not gonna see this, but i recommend you talk about B3313 (Super Mario 64 The Internal Plexus) someday. Not the development drama, but the game itself. I think it's perfect for a deep dive.
This is a fantastic video. Thanks so much for making it! :)
I think with PS3 and 360 gen, there was a large push for realism because the technology was finally able to render humans and realistic environments adequately. Assassin's Creed generally became the new Prince of Persia and its success was apparent. Movement was seen less as a core gameplay element and a supplemental element to combat. Most platformers went back to 2d focus, as the allure of 3d was not as big a selling point anymore and they wanted to focus on the precise movement that 2d platformers were better at.
I've just played through Crash 4, it's my favorite game this year. Tragic that Crash 5 got canceled.
3D platformers are split between open world design whilst others are linear levels. Astrobot is absolutely a linear game, which cuts down a huge amount of development time and testing. Even Mario Odyssey is a more linear game than Sunshine or 64. Ironically Zelda BotW and TotK are like open world platformers than original Zelda games which were linear dungeons with open world hubs. In the 2000s many big names of the genre were pushing for open worlds and huge amounts of collectables which was a big design difference from the tighter linear design of what made the genre popular.
Wow how have I never heard of Astro Bot? It looks right up my alley.. too bad I don’t have a PlayStation. Need some more 3d platformers on Xbox… Psychonauts 2 was incredible
There are many on Roblox for free, which are on Xbox. I can recommend those, no real reason not to play it. If you want something difficult, Stars Align and Tower World are great. If you want something more chill, there's Super Blox 64, Microwave Dinner, and many more. I could also do a shameless plug for my game, PB the Flying Pig, also a free 3d platformer on Roblox that supports Xbox. It's more chill, heavily inspired by Spyro's reignited trilogy.
I work in a (very) small indie studio and we released our first game earlier this year! 🎉
It's called Promenade. We wanted to emulate the feel of the golden era of 3d platformer but in 2d. With a few twist of our own 😁
great to see you clinging to the long form video format
I think the reason is that 3D plattformers are a lot harder to design for than 2D plattformers and 3D games(that are actually games and not movies) tend to evolve more in the combat-focussed direction and that was never exactly a strengh of most if not all 3D plattformers. Nothing specific really killed the genre, it just naturally fell out of favor of both developers and audience members for diffrent reasons.
The genre did get a revival a few years back and now we are still seeing multiple regular releases, but it just won't ever become mainstream outside of Mario again. Astro Bot is a fluke in a niche market. A happy fluke, but still a fluke.
Everyone should check out A Hat In Time, it's an excellent revival of the 3D platformer genre with really fun characters, mechanics, and levels.
glad i found this channel, loved your old mario maker videos :)
Amazing video as Always
Hey, thanks for the video. I like when one asks a question and makes me think. Now, i have not fully watched the video yet, so i may stumble upon similar points.
So, i think 3D platformers being dead can be chalked up to a lot of things. But I'll be touching on 3. Demographic changes in the wider gaming industry. How games are made in the industry. And finally, how certain genres tend to decline as the years have passed.
Starting with the first point, Demographics. As time has gone on, more and more adults have latched on to video games as a hobby, especially in 2020. A lot of the stigma surrounding video games as just kids toys has been slowly going away over the years as games have grown into more sophisticated media. And because of that, there are many more adults playing games these days. And the insdustry shows. Most of the biggest games of the year aren't typically made for children, although they don't necessarily exclude them either. And it's not necessarily that adults don't want to play kids games. Many of them are just as fun as mature titles. It's just that 3d platformers, and moreso the platformer genre in general, have always been more geared to kids. Something about the fundamental gameplay of a 3d platformer doesn't lend itself well to a super serious mature game, though maybe we just have yet to see an example. I personally think this may just be the biggest, or one of the biggest, reasons for the decline of the 3d platformer. With more market share being taken up by adults, there's less incentive to make something solely for children.
And that leads right into my second point, that being changes in the industry. As time has gone on, games have only gotten bigger and bigger. In size and scope of course, but most importantly, money. In the eyes of a company, other than Nintendo or the Indies, a 3d platformer is a rather unappealing prospect. Because a good 3d platformer is kinda difficult to make. It has to be of a high quality, but it's also gotta be original in some way, because otherwise it could just be seen as a poor man's version of Mario. It's also unappealing because the audience is rather niche outside Nintendo and indie fans. And most companies simply aren't willing to spend their creative and financial efforts on something so risky. It's a sad state of affairs, but it's what we got. 3d platformers are also unappealing to both indies and AAA companies due to just how polished they need to be to stand out. When you make a 3d platformer, you're competing with Nintendo. And they've been doing this for longer than anyone else, really. So unless you game is really polished and has incredible controls, it becomes very difficult to justify buying because most people who care about 3d platformers can probably play mario 64 or galaxy on command. So 3d platformers are in this weird position where they're too ambitious and risky for AAA companies to wanna do them, but they also require an immense level of polish that takes much more effort from an indie studio. Not that it's impossible. Astro Bot proves this. But in the wider industry, these games are about as appealing as getting a thousand papercuts and then taking a salt and lemon juice bath.
For my last point, i want to talk about genres in general, because it applies to 3d platformers. Now, I'm not saying they were a fad, but they also didn't quite have the same staying power as other genres. And they are joined by many others. Point and click adventure games. Zombie games. Battle royale games. Cod clones. These genres were very popular for their time but kinda fell off for multiple reasons. Point and clicks died because they only really existed due to limitations. These days, unless you're purposefully making an homage to them, there's just better ways of making an interactive story. Not to mention thst a lot of the games were obtuse and unfair simply to extend playtime, although that was just common in the entire industry back then. Zombie games dies because the entire entertainment market became overly saturated with them and made people stop caring or finding them interesting. Battle royales faced a very similar issue with oversaturation until a few victors remained. Bitterly ironic, i know. And finally cod clones died because they were just kinda this edgy phase in the late 2000s and early 2010s where every game had to basically look like Mona Lisa smeared in mud. I could also bring up some other genres like CRPGs or Traditional Roguelikes, but i think you get the point. A lot of genres aren't popular anymore for varied reasons. Some drowned in an oversaturated market. Some had audiences that just became too niche in the market to appeal to. And many died simply due to the face they were products of their time. I think the second reason is what applies to 3d platformers. They're very niche and most of their fans are likely Nintendo fans. So for companies it's hard to justify due to the small market, and for indies the level of polish and originality required to compete with the behemoth that is Nintendo just isn't always worth it.
I don't think one sole group is responsible for the death of the genre. I think what killed it was simply time. Today, 3d platformers are a niche that most people don't particularly care about. And because of that, there isn't that industry to make them. Because as much as games are works of art, artists need to eat and keep the lights on. Now, do i think the genre is dead? No. Not at all. Because it wasn't that big to begin with. Basically all of the 3d platformers people most remember were on Nintendo consoles and until the Wii, they weren't exactly the most popular choice, given they had to compete with Sony and Microsoft. So i don't think the genre is dead. The only difference now is that there are less big companies who make them. That's it. And i suppose that leaves a final question. What's the future of these games? Probably more and the same. Nintendo being utterly dominant while occasionally another big company or indie dev will come out with a well beloved 3d platformer.
Thanks for reading, if you made it to the end. Bye.
Thought-provoking stuff as always. I'm glad to have something out there for kids outside of Roblox and Fortnite. Thanks for the video Ceave!
One of the 2 genres I want more games from, Super Mario 64 was my first & Yooka Laylee was my last from one of those genres, as for the other, my first was Star Fox 64 & my last was Star Fox Zero. Might consider checking out Fur Squadron Phoenix when it comes out.
THE LEGEND IS BACK HOORAY
3:58 THIS JOKE HAD NO RIGHT TO BE THIS FUNNY
Platformers do still exist a lot - in the indie game scene.
This is probably your best video yet.
Lovely video!
Although I’m surprised there wasn’t more mention of modern 3D platformers that were really really good, even if they didn’t have the most financial success like a hat in time or psychonauts 2, both games I found myself absolutely loving.
I think this was a great topic to bring up, thank you for the video!
0:40 Hat in time referenced!!!
Best game
@jodieamox dude I lost it when the dlc finally came to consoles
All of the points you made are very fair. Astro Bot looks amazing and I have no doubt that it would be one of my favourite games of the year if I were to play it. Unfortunately, it's stuck on a console that I have no interest in at all. This, I believe, is the biggest factor in why such a game has so few sales compared to its quality. Your average PS5 owner is probably not interested in it, it would have done better on PC or even the Switch.
The platformers were fused into open world games. Maindly genshin impact and assassin's creed.
Mostly unrelated to the video (It's great) but I love how you update your banner after every video to include something from said video. It's something I havent seen before and its really neat :)
Exceptionally high quality video, your sense humour is amazing.
I look forward to learning why a toddler choking on an ice cream cone at the World's Fair in 1904 led to Alarmo! 😂
Great video, and I hope your conclusion is right! I was a bit surprised you didn't bring up Penny's Big Breakaway when talking about indies, that's a fairly robust 3D platformer that came out this year (though I don't know if it sold well).
Very good video as always
i was thinking the answer is as simple as, the Gaming industry just found other genres more interesting.
Close, I'd say players themselves found other things interesting. Usually more adult themes. The game dev industry followed suit. There's other stuff, like business in the industry (idea for new games being shut down and unethical monetization), but that's the biggest thing.
I think you have cool things to say, but man, a lot of this video is repeating and stalling. I feel like 30 minutes of this probably shoulda been removed.
I agree, so many times I was like “you just said this like two sentences ago” or “yes, I am wondering about this, that’s why I’m watching this video.” Interesting analysis, but I had to watch on double speed because it was a little annoying.
@@FedoraKirb Tbh about 15 mins i turned 2x speed on, about 2 3rds in i felt like it wasnt going anywhere so i just stopped.
I like discussion videos on the genre but man, someone really wanted those midroll ads.
It's his style to meander. If you want something more straight to the point look elsewhere. Nothing wrong with that, but you don't have to watch if it doesn't suit your tastes. I thought it was great, but the conmection to the seemingly unrelated story thing he does was slightly shoehorned in this time. His final points were also a little questionable, but the pacing to get there was no issue for me.