How Nintendo Failed To Make The Game They Never Wanted To Make.
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2024
- The Legend Of Zelda - Twilight Princess is a very confused game. The story is all over the place and doesn’t make much sense, Link’s character arc collapses before we even enter the second Zelda dungeon and, at least in my opinion, it also features the worst ending of all the 3D Zelda games.
Yet it also features some of the best boss fights in the entire Zelda franchise.
Random side characters get more character development then Link does in Twilight Princess, yet no other Zelda game before or after it captures the feeling of adventure as well as Twilight Princess does.
The game features many of the best dungeons Nintendo ever crafted but also has weird tonal problems.
It has the worst art direction out of the 3D Zelda games yet features the best version of Hyrule fields, it has a terrible beginning but a wonderful second half, it has some of the coolest items in the series while also features some of the worst cutscenes.
It’s just a fantastic Zelda game on the one hand and a confusing mess on the other.
And at least in my humble opinion, that is incredibly interesting.
Why did Twilight Princess end up so confused?
How does a game end up so good and so strangely bad at the same time?
What happened?
In this video we will try to solve this little mystery.
====== Patreon
Help content like this survive on the platform: / ceave
====== Timestamps-----------
00:00:00 - Intro
00:02:32 - I: A Complicated Premise (Story Premise)
00:21:00 - II: A Broken Premise (Story Problems I)
00:36:25 - III: Dawn Of A Good Game (Gameplay & Dungeons)
00:48:52 - IV: Aonumas Secret (Economic Surroundings)
00:58:34 - V: Breaking More Than Just A Mirror (Story Problems II)
====== Sources
The images of Liminal Spaces are taken from the wonderful r/LiminalSpace - thank you to everyone who is sharing eerie places there! / liminalspace
Wikipedia: Wind Waker
Spirited Away & Liminality: :heyhoneytheblog.wordpress.com...
Wind Waker and Miyamoto:
kotaku.com/the-legend-of-zeld...
www.digitalspy.com/videogames...
Wind Waker 2: www.ign.com/articles/2004/03/...
DidYouKnowGaming Video mentioned:
• Miyamoto Hated Wind Wa...
====== Credits for the Music
Twilight Princess OST: “Orchestra Piece I”, “Title Theme”, “Ways Of The Sword”, “Malo Mart”, “Hidden Village”, “Blizetta Battle P2”, “File Select”, “Midna’s Lament”, “Sacrifice”, “Sacred Grove”, “Hyrule Field”, “The Light Arrows”
Paper Mario Origami King OST: “Western Showdown”
Ocarina Of Time OST - “Gerudo Valley”
Additionally the video uses licensed music from productioncrate.com and motionarray.com - Ігри
Did you just call Malo, owner of Malo Mart "unimportant"?
Bravery isn't fighting for what's right. Bravery is declaring that salsa is a fruit salad.
Can't wait for Malo Mart 8 Deluxe
@@joshie13bob Bravery is also...
Offering Great Goods at costs lower than the depths of Lake Hylia!
Like, this fine set of *Magic Armor,* we're practically giving it away!
Remember, when you're here: _"You are smart! You bought this at Malo Mart!"_
Malo is scary, he looks like a toddler but has ties to the Goron mafia that gives him an unchecked monopoly over all the businesses in Hyrule Castle Town. Personally, I think he's really a demon lor-No! STOP!! DON'T COME ANY CLOSER!!! ...I bought it, I am smaaaaart... I brought it at Maaaaloooo Maaaaaart...
Wind waker literally opens with child kidnapping??? It’s like the catalyst for the entire plot of wind waker why did the encyclopedia say that Twilight princess did it first?😭
If anything, the stakes are even higher because she's your sister, and on top of that, you still have her telescope and she wants it back! You have more motivation to rescue her than the non-important children in Twilight Princess!
WW and TP both came out on the GameCube, so it all depends which came out first.
@@TheREALSimagination Wind Waker did come out first. If anything, Twilight Princess came out on GameCube AFTER the Wii version released.
@@KayFiOS Ok
@@KayFiOS I would be so mad if somebody didn't return my telescope, and guess being rescued is nice
Twilight princess isn’t, nor ever was realistic. The games art style was always intended to be gothic. This explains its color palette, it’s odd human proportions, the only reason people even think it was supposed to be realistic is how much less cartoony than wind waker, but people keep calling tp realistic, when it never was nor was trying to be
@@GunnarWahl The reason people say it's supposed to be realistic is the developers literally said it was supposed to be realistic.
@@DefinitiveDubs That seems like a mistranslation. Because I'll let you know, the art direction is clearly a gothic fairy tale in design.
@@DefinitiveDubs now it would be fair to say the game's art style is more adult, more serious, but realistic, not even slightly. This is why i think it's a language barrier where they mean adult, and translated it to realistic. because cartoony means childish, and Twilight Princess is definitely less cartoony than Wind Waker, and compare to that, sure it's more "realistic" but I wouldn't call something like gothic art realistic.
@@GunnarWahl No, they said and meant realistic. There was no translation error, I promise you. You can't mistranslate "adult" as "realistic." They're not even close to being the same word in Japanese. It doesn't matter what you think about the artstyle, the fact is they said and meant they wanted realism.
@@DefinitiveDubs then let me try to put it to you this way, if the directors and advertisers asked for realism, the designers didn’t give it to them, and gave them gothic fairytale instead. If it was intended to be realistic, it’d be very strange to fail in such a way that perfectly land on gothic, almost as if they intentionally made it that way.
53:46 "adding darker elements that had not been present in the series until [Twilight Princess], like children being kidnapped."
Didn't Wind Waker also start with a child kidnapping? As the inciting incident of the game?
Lol, you are entirely right, how did I miss this!
Zelda and the maidens were kidnapped in A Link to the Past
Marin was kidnapped in Link's Awakening (so was Bow-Wow if we want to count dogs/chain chomps)
That's not even that dark. Plenty of lighthearted games aimed at children have children being kidnapped.
A Link to The Past also featured this with the maidens
Peach gets kidnapped in every Mario game 😭
I think there's two main reasons why they had Midna destroy the Mirror of Twilight:
1. Midna saw how the mirror fragments corrupted anyone and anything that came into contact with them, and didn't want that sort of dangerous power to be left unchecked.
2. It's a payoff for Midna stating that only the true ruler of the Twilight Realm could shatter the mirror.
It would take significant story alterations to remove these motivations. Plus, we're not sure that the mirror is the only possible way to access the Twilight Realm.
Yeah I agree. Midna is being a responsible leader now, and preventing anyone else from doing what Zant just did for the entire game. I dunno why Ceave has to complain about it if he thinks he wants all the themes to line up correctly. Sometimes taking responsibility means that you can't be in a certain place or hang out with certain people, even if you really want to (and I know Midna really wanted to stay, but she had to leave for the sake of her people, so I respect the sacrifice).
@@Boomblox5896 The thing with tonal inconsistencies is that you can't really complain when people aren't consistent about which inconsistencies make sense to them. For the record, I agree with why Midna broke the mirror, that it's a payoff for Midna and a way to prevent even a harmless prankster from causing trouble. I just also understand why Ceave didn't like the bittersweet ending, but it's not like he didn't understand the payoff he talks about it at 1:07:00~ish
"We accept this the same that way we accepted our character to be able to survive being hit by an attack that, you know, in the real world would kill a rhinoceros wearing chain mail in an instant."
What is this sentence?
@@TheREALSimagination a quote from about 17 minutes into the video.
@@TheREALSimagination a banger
@@reitonkyoju8 Oh, I'm sorry for not realizing XD
Honestly, I like to suspend my disbelief. I wanna enjoy a game for its gameplay, not for its realism. Sure, a bit of logic should be used to HELP the player, not HURT the player.
Honestly as a kid, I played this game after my grandmother passed away and I 100% understood it as the way you say it should have been and it helped me through that.
Pardon what does that mean? Does it mean you filled in the blanks yourself?
Rip grandma🫡
Rest In Peace to your Grandma.
Twilight Princess gave us Midna and is therefore a perfect game with no flaws whatsoever
And the copious amounts of r34 that came with her
MIDna is MID
@@sobblegaming350SOBblegaming is SOBBING that Midna is peak
Bro agreed
she looks like a child
There is another theme that makes Midna's decision more clear, not right, but clearer, Fear. Not horror, there are horror elements, but Fear, fear that things won't work out, fear that there is no future for the two worlds mixing, fear that tensions will cause issues one day no matter how hard they try, fear of change. That'd it'd be better to not try at all. Midna's heart softened, but she's still afraid of what could happen if their cultures mix and takes the onus on herself to prevent the bad despite the wonderful and possible good.
Ceave, I will always love your perspectives, but in the case of your final analysis of Twilight Princess’ themes, I think you have missed the mark. I totally agree that sacrifice and accepting other cultures are major themes in the game, but whereas you state they are in conflict when Midna shatters the mirror, I believe the truth is that one is informing the other. The emotional intention of this final scene is clear as day: sadness and regret. Midna could have broken the mirror in any number of ways, but she breaks it with a tear, perhaps the most unambiguous symbol of sadness the writers could choose. She regrets that she has to close this connection between worlds, between cultures, because like the player she has learnt that the gap between cultures is not as wide as she first thought. Yet, to protect her people as much as to protect Link and Zelda, she must sever all connections. This is her ultimate sacrifice: denying the possibility of connections between cultures in the hope of protecting them from suffering, the sadness of the sacrifice intensified by the regret at having to deny her people the joy of the lesson she has learned. The two themes are, in my onion, perfectly interwoven in this final moment and it does pain me a little bit that you seem to have missed or intentionally overlooked this as a way of underscoring your argument
Yeah but it feels forced. We KNOW that they couldn't make a totally happy end, that they wanted some "sadness" in the end but they didn't find a good reason for it so it feels wasted. A bit like when in a movie, the best friend hero suddenly die for no good reason because you need a dramatic scene where he will told somethig to tthe hero while dying.
It feels like cheap drama and Twilight Princess didn't need that.
If the thematic was more about a world that you can never enter, like A Link to the Past, that would be more accepted and would be less shocking.
We need to take the events not how the feel on their own but how they insert themselves in the grand narrative and Twilight Princess may be one of the weakest Zelda on this regard.
Forgive me, but I feel like this video makes a lot of terrible arguments and really misconstrues many of TP’s plot points. Here are my thoughts on some of your points:
(1/2)
-Right out of the gate, I feel like you’re placing way too much value on "themes" that the game wasn't even trying to focus on. Rusl’s quote at the beginning of the game is really just setting the tone and explains a lingering melancholy which pervades the world at times…which accurately foreshadows the Twilight Realm/curtains of Twilight which come later. I don’t think it was ever meant to be anything more than that.
-You make a weird argument that side characters need to have important plot relevance instead of just being allowed to be...you know, side characters? Like, did the Ordon kids really need to be any more important than what they were? They had their roles to play in the game, and while it wasn’t anything major, they fulfilled those roles well. I really don’t think we needed anything more from them.
-It feels really weird to call the beginning of the game "a lot of fluff" when in actuality it serves as a useful tutorial and basically establishes Link's character and background. Sure it might have been a little slow, but at the very least, it wasn’t pointless.
-I feel like it should be pretty obvious why Link doesn’t change back from a wolf in the light world. The effects of the Twilight are simply that potent and not easily undone. It’s hinted by Ordona when he says that “Those transformed by twilight usually cannot recover their original forms” and even Midna when she says “you haven't transformed back to your former self...and you won't anytime soon!” She then follows up that statement with “Now why could that be? Eee hee hee!”, but her giggle and previous statement seem to suggest that she already fully understands what’s going on. She’s likely just teasing Link for his cluelessness in that moment. And like I said, the truth of the matter is really not that difficult to surmise, if you’re willing to piece together what the plot is showing you.
-I have a few small notes about the twilight Kakariko scene: Colin isn’t telling the story of the disappearing townspeople, Barnes is. And the mention that the people are turning into monsters is more of a hint/speculation rather than an actual plot point that needs to be fully addressed or resolved. I feel like it was only mentioned to give you an idea of what the beasts are up to, and to make them sound more eerie and terrifying.
-I’ll admit that the Bulblins’ kidnapping of the children seems all over the place. We’re never quite sure why they were kidnapped or abandoned, but we could speculate that this was done in an effort to cripple the civilizations across Hyrule and make Zant’s invasion an easier process. It honestly should have been explained though and it is rather disappointing that it wasn’t focused on more.
-I think it’s safe to say that Link had more motivation than just wanting to save the kids. He is a hero and a kind soul. He obviously wants to save his Kingdom too. Stop Zant. Save Zelda from her captors. Save the remaining Light Spirits. His bond with Midna is slowly growing and he clearly wants to help her too. I think it should be pretty obvious why he would continue helping Midna collect the Fused Shadows if she claimed that was their best chance of saving the kingdom. He has every reason to continue journeying even after saving the kids.
-It’s true that the game doesn’t go into detail as to why being a spirit in the Twilight is inherently bad, but I’m guessing that they can’t cross the curtains of Twilight (similar to how Link needs Midna’s help to get through), basically making them prisoners at Zant’s mercy. And a lot of the citizens do live in fear of Zant and his Shadow Beasts, so it’s never shown to be all smiles and rainbows. The Twilight is still very much something that needs to be undone.
-You claim that Link is a flawless hero, but I kind of disagree. Link is really only as perfect as you, the player, is. Every game over, every injury, every fall into a pit…are these not all examples of Link being imperfect? Examples of him failing? And I think you’ve really misunderstood his relevance to Colin’s arc. Link’s nod to Colin isn’t really one of confidence. It’s one of willingness. Link doesn’t know for sure that he’ll be able to aid the Gorons, but he’s damn well going to try. That’s who he is. That’s his display of courage and selflessness. And yet you’ve spun it as Link acknowledging his perfection and flawlessness? I have no idea how the hell you’ve arrived at this conclusion.
-You claim that Link NEEDS a character arc, but…why? Link is already shown to be a grown adult at the beginning of the game. We can presume that he’s already lived through a decent amount of life lessons and they’ve forged him into the person he is today. A kind, selfless, brave individual who always aids others. He is a very admirable person, and I don’t really see what’s inherently wrong with that. I wish you would explain why Link’s “flawless character” (heavy emphasis on the quotation marks here) is displeasing other than just saying “he needs a character arc”. Like, what exactly did you want to see from him?
-You’ve completely misconstrued the entire Sacred Realm/interloper cutscene…This scene was never meant to be foreshadowing, it’s more lore/backstory for not only TP, but the Zelda series as a whole. It explains the origins of the Twilight Realm, the purpose of the Light Spirits, what the Fused Shadows truly are and why they are dangerous. The reason why the visuals show Link and Ilia is to make the story more understandable/relatable. It shows that anyone could be corrupted in the pursuit of such godly power. Friend could become foe. Righteous could turn evil. It apparently happened to people as good-natured to Link, and if the hero isn’t careful with the Fused Shadows, it could very well happen to him too. So yeah…there IS a reason for it to exist and it is not inherently terrible storytelling…
-I don’t really know what to say about the tonal shifts. You say that the game is too dark in places and then too lighthearted/silly in others but…that’s kind of just the Zelda series as a whole? Many dark events take place throughout the games, but there’s always plenty of funny/silly moments too, as well as goofy characters and fun minigames. It’s just how the Legend of Zelda is and such tones have never been exclusive to TP. It’s fine if you don’t like it, but if you’re going to make an argument for why it’s objectively bad or confusing, then you need to actually…provide reasoning? How did the tonal shifts specifically RUIN the experience for you?
-I have no idea why you think the game has such an increase in quality/enjoyment from the Lakebed Temple onwards when the game doesn’t seem to rectify any of the complaints you’ve posed up until that point. Like, by your own arguments, is Link not still flawless? The tones not still shifting? The story still not making sense? What changed that makes the game suddenly become “peak Zelda” for you? Because as far as I can tell, it seems like you just decided that all of your previous complaints were suddenly irrelevant, and it kind of makes me feel like I should treat them as irrelevant as well…
(2/2)
-You seem very obsessed with the theme and I’m not entirely sure why. I guess it all comes down to personal preference? For me, I care very little for the themes. The game could have one theme, many themes, no themes; I honestly don’t care as long as the plot and characters are well-written and the gameplay is fun and rewarding. That being said, your main issue seems to be that Midna destroys the mirror thus ruining the “theme” that different cultures are supposed to mix and interact, but I’m not even sure if that’s a relevant theme that plays out throughout the story? Like it definitely ties into Midna’s character arc, and Link and Zelda’s too, to an extent, but does it ever really go beyond that? If we look at it just from the perspective of a singular character arc rather than an overarching theme, you can see it becomes something more akin to Midna realizing that while she treasures the world of light and those who dwell in it, perhaps both worlds truly are better left alone. The Twilight Invasion only happened because she failed to stop Zant. At the end, she feels responsible for what has transpired and concludes that the worlds will at least never endanger one another so long as the mirror is shattered. It’s a tragic note to end on, and I don’t think the game ever emphasizes that Midna’s choice is 100% CORRECT, but it is what she ultimately decides and I think it honestly makes for an interesting conclusion to her character, if nothing else. And I would heavily disagree that this ending has “no impact”. Watching Midna tearfully say goodbye forever as she selflessly decides to cut off all connection between the two worlds? That hits hard. At least for me, it does.
-Your solution to the story’s problems honestly leaves me far more baffled than the original plot. You say that all it would take is a “small change” to make the Twilight Realm the land of the dead, but that’s not exactly a small change at all. That would have massive consequences on the game’s narrative and a lot of plot points would need to be changed to match it. We’d have to establish that the dead are capable of returning to the living world which would have intense repercussions, and entire character motives/backstories would need to be rewritten. And I really don’t see how any of this applies a better theme/message to the game? Like at what point do Midna and Zelda make an argument for immortality? Why do you feel that these characters need to LEARN that death is inevitable? Don’t they already understand this? I honestly don’t see how this fixes the narrative at all. If anything, it just makes the plot even more convoluted and confusing.
In conclusion, do I believe that Twilight Princess is perfect? No, of course not. But a lot of your arguments seem very misconstrued and derived from basic misunderstandings. By carefully examining the plot and dialogue and having a willingness to fill in some of the blanks ourselves, you’ll find that the story really isn’t all that confusing or contradictory. And I think it’s important to remember that not everything has to be a theme, or tie into a theme, or even tie into the overall narrative. Sometimes small details can just be small details, and that’s totally fine?
Wow, someone pointing out what a mess of a convoluted and unfinished plot of your favorite Twilight Princess, ended up getting to you that badly? And yes, it still is very much contradictory, and is unfulfilling when copying plot points that previous Zelda games has done (Wind Waker when it comes to Kidnapping). Not everything has to have a theme, sure. But at the end of the day, this game's narrative ends up weaker all for this mess it is.
I think that's also my problem with Twilight Princess since the first time i played.
It TELL YOU that the game is dark but there is no dark theme to see. Ocarina of Time was dark, you see the bad guy win, you regret what happened for 7 years, it's also the end of the innocence and returning to old location as an adult have a certain melancholy to it... Not one brought by the visual, but one that you can FEEL. That's what at theme is for.
Majora's Mask is even less subtle, death, despair and mourning is literally everywhere, ancient land of prosperity, bar where you bury your sorrow... The only positive note ( a wedding ) you have to fight for it as much as you can.
That's what "theme" is for, why it's so important. This is also how you can tell if something feel out of place or not and why when the story is more focused, you can better understand where it goes.
In Twilight Princess they say that there is a "Twilight Land" but... Why is it dark ? Only because of the visual, only because it "looks" dark, it's incredibly shallow and makes everything a mess of a story. It works when you are a child, it may works when you grew up with the game but it doesn't work for an adult. Okami at the same time felt incredibly more powerful because it has consistant themes too. Even the Dark Realm from A Link to the Past felt better made ! Yeah, those are the dark realm because you are transformed into a new creature when you enter, it can also be those strange tree, you understand then that it's not a world for the human to inhabit... Twilight Princess is.... Less clear about that, everything is less clear which made me very disappointed when i first played it.
@@byronlyons3548 Well, to be more specific, someone making terrible arguments is what made me write the comment. If he is allowed to release an hour and a half long video making poor points, then am I not allowed to write an extensive comment debating said points? Or am I just supposed to accept every point being made without questioning or thinking about the arguments?
I'm totally fine with someone criticizing TP as long as the criticisms are strong and objective :P
@@Haganeren Sorry, but I disagree. At what point does TP tell you that it's supposed to be dark? Personally, I can see the aspects of dark storytelling on my own. Like OOT, the bad guys wins. The game practically opens with Zelda surrendering Hyrule to Zant. The kingdom is already lost and the game is a battle to reclaim it. There's also the aspect of Link being transformed into a ferocious beast, not being recognized by his loved ones and even being treated like a monster at times. Is that not an "end of innocence", in a sense, similar to OOT? Does returning to Ordon Village as a beast not have a certain melancholy to it? One that you can feel more than visualize?
I don't really get your point about the Twilight being dark. You claim that it only "looks" dark, and cite ALTTP as a better example, but I really don't see a difference between the two? Is the Dark World also not a place that is visually, you know, dark? Even your points of turning into a different beast and entering a place where humans don't belong can be directly applied to TP. Like...becoming a wolf and all the humans being spirits in the Twilight? Maybe I'm just misunderstanding your point, but as far as I can tell, it appears that you just claimed that TP and ALTTP are different in this one aspect, only to immediately prove that they are incredibly similar.
Bold of you, calling Malo unimportant.
He's a baby that is smart enough to run a business. That is terrifying, and Link should have less reason to save him than the other non-important children!
Also bold of him to try to dismantle one of the best cutscenes in all of Zelda history LOL
I would disagree that twilight princess's art design is "realistic". It's maybe more.. ""naturalistic""?? but DEFINITELY not realistic. Every character apart from a few are highly stylized and exaggerated, and I would argue lots and lots of the art direction is actually in favor for the series as I'd argue that the popularity of the dungeons comes not only from their design mechanically but their design artistically, too. They feel like natural evolutions to the oot and mm art style, which was DEFINITELY not realistic either.
I would describe it as "dark fantasy" kind of gritty with otherworldly lighting inspired by the Peter Jackson LotR films.
I don't think I've ever disagreed this much with the opening of a Ceave video - in my opinion having played through the Wii U version again recently: the story is pretty straightforward, Link is about as developed as he is in other non-Skyward Sword games, and the ending is one of my favourites in the series due to the surprising bittersweetness. Side characters having a buncha character development is really neat, and the art direction is quite pretty. I tried watching through the video but I just could not jive with almost any critique being said, which is honestly super surprising considering your other Zelda videos have been right on the money with me.
Same here, couldn't have said it better myself.
I’m currently playing the game myself for the first time and the first 30 minutes of this video definitely seems like whining to me. Haven’t gotten through eldin volcano yet, but I agree the story is really straightforward and the art style seems to be going for a gritty feel rather than realistic, hell I think botw characters look more realistic
I agree. I love Ceave and I will gladly watch his videos but this is the first time I've gone through the whole thing saying "yes but" or "wellllll..." I still have mad respect for him and love the videos, but I do think a lot of this one was either taking things too literally, judging it on a different set of expectations compared to the rest of Zelda as a series or just... not getting it.
Which isn't a great counter-argument, I know LOL and I still love Ceave's videos, but I'm with you, there was so much in this video in particular where I think maybe bouncing his thoughts off of another fan might've cleared up a lot of the misinterpretation.
Also Malo best character and Lanayru cutscene best cutscene
I do agree with him saying the intro drags on, but yeah, I think the story is mostly straightforward.
There are some things the game doesn't explain, but a lot of them didn't need an explanation.
They rather help set up a mysterious vibe, where more things are happening than Link can initially realize.
@@Sigmund_Froid Absolutely. That is the one thing I'll agree on is that the opening is sliiiightly too drawn out/slow.
In the opening you mentions bad cutscenes and I'm thinking, "didn't this game have the best cutscenes". Then you get to the triforce/illia scene and I'm like, "yeah, that's probably the best cutscenes in all of Zelda"
Ceave is smoking some kinda Fuzzy this week. I dunno why he's gotta be this critical about one of the best Zelda games of all time. I love the game, despite all its flaws and subtle errors in storytelling. I never even caught them, but I still enjoyed this title in all its glory. I was just happy to be slashing enemies with expanded sword skills and an arsenal of gadgets to work with.
Nah, I kinda agree with him, it's kind of a weird scene...
The presentation is confusing, and I feel like the Message in that scene would fit way more if Power (like the Triforce) was a bigger force in the Story, but Ganon only really appears in the end.
It's not as bad as Ceave makes it out to be, but I think it's far from the best cutscene either.
I think this is the first time that I knew exactly what the blurred video at 2:12 was
ah yes overworld hoglin being beaten to death
First thing I thought of
Hot take:
The goat herding is the most underrated part of ANY Zelda game.
It is the only game that lets you partake is Links day-job, no other Zelda game has Link do a regular villager thing, WW is the closest with Link taking a nap, but that ends a second in.
This is sets the feeling of the calm, making the dread of the approaching calamity feel so much darker, and the call to adventure much stronger.
Also, the fact that its slow does not affect 99% of all players, the slow start is only slow on replays.
I mean, Ocarina of Time also opens with Link taking a nap, but your right about Twilight Princess being one of the few times we see a Link doing normal everyday things before the adventure starts.
Spirit Tracks also has Link with a full on Job before the adventure begins!
I think this is why Miyamoto wanted that, he can be quite precise narrative-wise.
One of the few thing TP did right narratively i agree.
I have to say, I think a lot of the issues brought up here are a result of selective framing and overthinking. Obviously, I disagree with most of the points made in this video, but I want to explain why using a few examples.
1. Link's character arc. Link has never had a defined character arc in a zelda game. Him being a mute protagonist means that he gets very little characterization and almost always is a perfect hero right off the bat. You could say that in many other games he is described as being lazy (OOT, aLttP, MC, etc) but aside from saying it in the very beginning, this never really comes up. I'd like to know what people think Link's character arc is in other games so as to explain why he has a bad arc in Twilight princess. I think Link fails to have an arc in any game, so it's a valid criticism, but I don't think it's fair to single out in this game.
2. Colin's projection onto Link. Two things here: One, Other peoples opinions and perceptions of a character are not supposed to indicate how that character IS, just how they are percieved. Many villains in media often start as being seen as good, only to later be revealed to be evil. Other characters perceptions of a character are NOT meant to tell the audience how that character is, just how they are percieved. Two, Link, being Mute, has essentially three things he can "say" yes, no and shrug. So when Colin says he can save the gorons, what else could Link say other than nod in agreement without assassinating his whole character.
3. Story misreadings. I'll agree that Twilight Princess leaves a lot of things ambiguous, but I think it's fair to say the same of all zelda games. For example, why doesn't Link revert to his human form in the world of light? They only times he returns to human form is when in the presence of light magic (spirits and master sword). This is never explained, but could have a myriad of explanations that are all fine. Compare this to aLttP where Link is turned into a Bunny in the Shadow realm, why he takes that form is never explained or hinted at, and we can only speculate why he would turn into that when nothing else in the dark world look like that. How about MM, why does link retain key items when resetting the world when consumables are all lost? OOT, if ganandorf wanted Link to open the light realm, why did he block his path at every step? WW, how did the triforce break, why was it only the triforce of courage that broke, how did link get physical pieces of the triforce and combine them together, who made charts to the pieces, etc? Or, why is king Daphnes a boat and why can he apparently live forever?
All valid questions and valid critiques, but again Twilight Princess is singled out as this being a problem, when as far as I can tell it has the easiest solution that just isn't spelled out.
4. Zelda's Gift. The game never states what Zelda gives to Midna to save her life, but the implication is that Midna is dying solely due to being in the world of light as a being of twilight, so Zelda gave her the ability to exist in the world of light, and just like all the town's people engulfed in twilight, she ceased to exist in the world of light. So, she didn't die, she faded into the twilight realm. This also explains how she came back, as Ganondorf has immense magic and could easily use it to bring Zelda back to the normal world. This is speculation since the game doesn't explain it, but as with point 3, this is nothing new
5. Breaking the Mirror. Midna's character arc has two main portions: a. learning to respect the world of light as not evil, and b. learning that she is a competent ruler. Midna is angry and spiteful at Zelda because she see's herself in Zelda. Midna feels as though she has failed her people and isn't fit to rule and projects these feelings onto Zelda because she appears to have failed in the same way. Midna also knows the history of the twilight and knows that she and her people were banished from the normal realm due to using magic. She and her people still have and use magic and she loves her people, so she has to assume that the world of light banished them into twilight unjustly. So, over the course of the game she learns that there are good and bad people in both realms and she learns that having failed does not make you into a failure, your actions after failure determine that. However, she also learns that the Twili and Hylians get hurt when they interact with eachother, so she gives up her new found love and connections in the normal world to protect them and her own people.
I'll admit that a lot of this is my own interpretation of the story, and I think most Zelda games have ambiguous enough stories that each person inevitable reads something different from them, but that's also kind of my point. Most of the issues brought up in this video were things I never noticed because they didn't appear to be problems to me. The game has enough to it that I felt like I could read solutions into the unknown, and I also felt like all zelda games had the same kind of ambiguous stories.
Edit: Fixed a name as I used the wrong king of hyrule
uh the King's name in WW is Daphness if i remember right. Rhoam is the King in BOTW. both kings. but different people.
the rest, boy do i agree.
@@ghoulchan7525 Yep, you're right. I edited the original comment to fix it. Thanks for pointing out the error.
@@Zer0_Ph34r no problem
Agree with your points, wanted to add on to the point about Link's character arc:
Not all stories have the main or point-of-view character be the one who undergoes character growth. For example, take the original animated version of Disney's Beauty and the Beast. Belle more or less starts the movie having the same personality and mindset that she does at the end. Rather than having flaws that need to be overcome, she instead serves at catalyst for the character growths of the Beast and the townsfolk. She may change a bit, but not as much as other characters. She's pretty much good from the get-go and the story doesn't suffer for it.
Link plays a similar role in TP, as well as a lot of other Zelda games. The story focuses less on Link changing as a character, and more on how his actions, kindness, and bravery effect change in others. Colin and Midna are the biggest examples of this. Both characters undergo growth because of their interactions with Link. We see a similar dynamic with Tatl in MM and Tetra in WW. I mean, Link sometimes makes people worse off, like the Song of Storms guy in OOT, but that's neither here nor there.
I think making Link a catalyst for growth is a good use for his style of character and, in my opinion, TP is better off leaning into it than trying to force a character arc for him. That's really tricky to land for a mute player character.
Thank you, a lot of this is exactly what I was thinking throughout the video
Link's character especially, I was thinking, 'has link ever had an actual character arc?'. Besides small characterization shown through actions, I don't think he has, in at least any of the games I've played. And as said in another reply, its normally the characters around him that are effected by him. This game is really about Midna and not link (its literally the title), so I don't think it makes sense to criticize it against other games for link having no real character arc.
In the Japanese version, the Twilight Realm is known as the Shadow Realm, Twilight is only used in Midna's title, and the sections of Hyrule overtaking by shadow (where Light and Shadow collide. a.k.a. Twilight). In general, TP's localization makes a lot of odd changes that mess with the themes of power.
Also, the Lanayru cutscene is where we first learn about origins of the Twili, being the descendants of the banished Interlopers.
EDIT: one thing worth pointing out in the sales analysis, is that a) A large chunk of the Wii's install base consisted of casual gamers, who weren't gonna buy a Zelda game anyways, and b) the Wii had a much bigger piracy problem, meaning a lot more people played the game than what sales would indicate.
Huh. I never knew this. That makes so much sense. I don't think the Yu-Gi-Oh localization team would have liked that tho. And the Dark World was already in Alttp.
The fishing rod controls weirdly bonded me with my uncle who absolutely detested video-games. I was playing on the Wii and had no idea how to get the fishing to work - it's not intuitive as you mention in the video, not least to a 9-year old. The motion controls - that resembled a real fishing rod - WERE intuitive to my fisherman uncle however, who suddenly interjected and told me that I needed to wait for the end of the rod to fully submerge and then *slowly* reel the fish in rather than just yank the Wiimote, as he would if he were fishing. It was a weird and rare moment where we suddenly had some common ground, and I remember it fondly.
Personally, I disagree that the creepy cutscene has no meaning to the rest of the story.
I think it's meant to give story to what the fused shadows really represent, and place doubt in the player towards Midna's motives.
I think it's also the light spirit trying to frighten or test Link with the possible darkness he could fall into if he gives in to a lust for power.
It's also a nod to Zant's ability to end Ganon. The part of himself he gave to Zant because he saw him as a way to get more power, is the same thing that caused his final downfall.
The white eyes also come back on Ganon in the scene where Zant cracks his neck.
I don't know, I still think the payoff for something so unsettling ends up sucking...
Yeah, no, it really didn't. Not only does it conflicts the message of the first Spirit you freed from being shattered little tears of light. But he also provides conflicting information, and how that goes against the very first one you ever see, who says there four of them, but Lanayru spirit says it was just three of them.
There's not much to doubt, when Midna already came out upfront about how she didn't care of what happens to your light world, so long as she got the fused shadow for her own goal. So warning us about that is pointless. But to also point out, despite her initial claims, over time, she ends up having some level of care of what happens in Hyrule. Such as when needing to get those shadow bugs from the one bomb storage place in Kakariko Village, to only end up blowing the entire place up. She points out of how we shouldn't take such reckless destruction action like that again, and not just for their own safety. Which happens before even making it to the last Light Spirit. So again, it would be conflicting information if that was the case.
Ultimately the cutscene, especially around the end, just becomes zany nonsense, with little to no payoff. It's like an unfulfilled promise, which is what half of this mess of a game is. Such as the kidnapping of the kids at the beginning of the game, which leads to nowhere beyond being a plot device. Very much unlike Wind Waker, which had a reason for the kidnapping.
I think your hangup on how the theme of cultures fits into the game's ending may add a bit of unnecessary friction to your interpretation
Midna's whole thing at the start of the game is that she was extremely bitter about her people being banished to the realm of twilight and I always got the impression that she was basically planning to use Zant's antics as an opportunity to finally get revenge on the realm of light (this might even be explicit in the dialogue, but I haven't played the game in a while, so I don't quite remember). But, due to her adventures with Link, Zelda's sacrifice, and seeing how Zant and Ganondorf are consumed by hatred, she learns to let go of her own bitterness and do what's best for everyone, not only her own people. The fact that Midna then destroys the Mirror of Twilight with a _tear_ in the end shows how much sorrow she feels in that moment, that as much as she _wants_ to preserve the gateway between realms, to learn more about each others' cultures and intermingle, she feels she _has_ no other choice but to destroy the mirror in order to prevent another catastrophe. It wasn't an act of anger or grasping for power, but an act of responsibility, one that someone like Zant or Ganondorf could never understand
I do agree that the game's themes and writing are messy, but I think changing the realms to be representations of life and death would've been more akin to a rehash of Majora's Mask and its themes regarding death, grief, acceptance, etc. There's definitely a lot to consider from that angle as you pointed out, but as it stands, Twilight Princess feels more like an allegory for dealing with one's own prejudices, the notion that you may harbor intensely negative feelings towards others, sometimes justifiably so, but it's important to reflect on what good would actually come from feeding that animosity and acting on it
It helps when you remember Twilight Princess is the *Western* Zelda. Your hero is a rancher on the frontier who has encounters with other tribes and develops an unexpected and, at first, forced partnership with an enemy tribe that slowly fosters and understanding between the two. Both Link and Midna grow to trust each other despite their tribal differences and are able to call out the evils on their respective sides. The Western idea isn’t just showing up randomly in Kakariko and the Hidden Village. It’s all over Twilight Princess.
I think I disagree with your basis; that Midna was angry about her people being banished. She initially simply didn't care about the light realm, and her motivation was solely to get rid of Zant and reclaim her throne....and she'd do it any cost, regardless of what happens to the realm of light. Her adventures with Link and the sacrifice of Zelda taught her to care about the light realm, etc.
@@ryanwall5760 Never thought about it before now, but Twilight Princess is very reminiscent of a western, having many of its tropes and following a similar plot structure.
You know, it'd probably be better making this comment *after* you've remembered the plot of the game. Because at no point was there any dialogue that hints at Midna planning to do what Zant did, herself. No, rather that her not doing that, or ever planning to, was the reason she was chosen to be ruler in the first place. As she said so herself to Zant, when confronting him for the final time. Even after her being turned into an imp by Zant, she never really at all planned to take revenge on the light realm. She just throughout the first half of the game until her near death experience, was jaded and didn't care what happened to the light realm. Which is way different than wanting revenge. Instead, her point of contingency, her revenge, was aimed at Zant.
So your interpretation, for your first few sentences, is what actually contradicts what happens in the game.
The game is called "Twilight Princess" it's about Midna, link isn't the focus, he can be as perfect as the game needs him to be to help Midna change her mind about the people of the light world.
Yeah, the whole criticism people have about Link not feeling like a real person is nonsense. We like to romanticize perfect characters all the time without realizing it. Some people still love Superman and a bunch of other superheroes. Batman, despite not having powers, is always fighting crime and sticking to his "no-kill" rule. So why should Link suddenly have a sort of complexity to him? He was meant to be the holder of the Triforce of Courage, the infallibly brave hero that saves the day. Ceave needs to chill out.
honestly the series is called "the legend of ZELDA" yeah link is the protagonist, but I've never actually seen him as much of a "main character"... in the vast majority of the games he's literally a silent character that is pushed around by the plot... Being upset by his lack of character arc is like saying Mario should have an arc 😂 yeah he's got history behind him, relationships, and so-on, but lets be honest here, more than anything he's a character for the player to inhabit... idk, maybe that's just me
@@chattycatty3336 Not wrong. Link has always been an insert character for the player to experience the world. It would be nice for him to have an arc, but it's not something that's necessary. More work should always be put into the other characters, the world, story and Links expressions towards him and what happens in said story.
People will use any argument even the most aburds... Ocarina of Time is called Ocarina of Time but Link still have a character arc.
The creepy cutscene is just using existing models to explain the history of this hyrule & why the Twili people exist in a shocking (and cost effective) way
Illia is still a weird choice
It's just for dramatic effect@@manspence2203
I think it's meant to represent that even friends and family got corrupted, like with Yeta and the mirror shard.
well at least it gives something for the theorists to think about ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Furthermore, it teaches a lesson that both Midna and Zant (and maybe Ganondorf) need to learn, which only the first does. It’s a big part of Midna’s character arc.
I disagree with the Lanayru Spirit cutscene being incoherent at the time it appears, it just doesn't really have any payoff. It's about power or the promise of power causing people to betray or hurt even those they care about. Now, we obviously have the connection of Midna being potentially untrustworthy, but we also have Link framed as an overwhelmingly strong hero not long before this. Add in how the civilians cower from him in wolf-form and the thematic direction of the cutscene makes more sense.
Unfortunately there isn't really any payoff - sure there are betrayals, bad decisions and people becoming monsters when faced with great power (Zant's coup, the Sages executing Ganondorf and at least half the cast of villains respectively), but it's all backstory stuff. I suppose we also have Hero's Shade Stalfos Link in the 'power turning people into monsters' category, but he seems friendly enough, likewise for Spider-Midna (Spidna if you will). Maybe you could argue Puppet-Zelda as a fakeout final boss works, but she's obviously being controlled so that doesn't fit the theme. Maybe we really stretch it and say that Zant betraying Ganondorf at the end delivers a subversive take on the betrayal theme, but that's a real stretch.
I can imagine a different 2nd half of the game that fit the themes the first half sets up. Midna and Link have different needs for the Fused Shadow and come into conflict (perhaps she's the midgame boss and their conflict allows Zant to curse Link and shove Midna in the tanning booth, leading them to once again work together); Link's entry into Hyrule Castle is framed to mirror Zant's; the fight with Zelda isn't a fakeout - she's there to return Link to who he should be instead of the conquering monster he's become; etc. A less-heroic story about the corrupting influence of power that culminates in a fight against the very embodiment of power and closes out with the Fused Shadow being split between the realms so the destruction of the Mirror of Twilight becomes more meaningful.
I also really like the art style with the sole exception of terrain textures and the murky filter that's over so much of it. It's got that grimy, realism-adjacent style where 90% of the characters are quirky weirdos and/or nasty goblins. Reminds me of Labyrinth or the 1999 Alice in Wonderland tv-movie.
I also think your use of statistics at the end is reductive at best and misleading at worst. The Wii vastly expanded the audience base and the best-selling games (not counting those bundled with the console) reflect that, being the "motion control novelty" set of Wii Play, Fit and Fit Plus. If we ignore those, Twilight Princess basically matches Wind Waker - they both sold about half as many copies as their console's Smash Bros (the highest-selling non-bundle, non-motion-novelty game on each console), were beaten by the mainline 3D Super Mario game as well as a party game (Mario Kart Double Dash and Mario Party 8 respectively). You could argue that Twilight Princess had the advantage of there not being as much competition when it released, but if we factor that in, it also had the disadvantage of requiring the purchase of a new console for the full experience (and then we have to consider whether "more of the same" would sell a console as well as "Zelda with a new art style"). Any sort of comparative analysis is going to be incredibly complicated.
Overall though, I like the analysis. Mixed metaphors stepping on each others' toes was my main criticism of the anime Promare and it can be really hard to write yourself out of, especially when those metaphors are also fighting with the non-metaphorical text of the story.
i really love your point that the fight against ganon is a fight against power. it could’ve been such a good theme if they’d actually stuck with it.
also “throwing midna in the tanning booth” is so cutthroat gndbfbdb i love it
I think it not having a payoff is mostly why he called it incoherent, he addresses the themes it establishes while going over it
The weird thing is, I believe that the Twilight Princess Manga actually does cash in on a few of the themes that the game sets up, but doesn't deliver on. Acquiring the Master Sword starts going to Link's head, and he starts becoming battle-hungry and bloodthirsty, not to mention his relationship with Midna is a bit more troublesome. It gets so bad that the master sword rejects him and he almost dies. The Hero's shade has to talk him into continuing the journey, and he undergoes intensive training in the Temple of Time to get himself in shape after getting reliant on the power of the Master Sword.
It's not perfect, but it does cash in on the talk about "power" and it's corrupting influence. And shows Link's growth
@@glwgameplayer1716 Huh, that's really cool to know, didn't even know it existed, might have to give it a read.
Thank you, this is great input. You have a true love for this game that I share with you.
1:11:48 How can you nonchalantly say “a game or a story isn’t bad just because it explores many themes… but if the themes start to contradict eachother, then we have a problem”?
Such a strong and seemingly arbitrary limiting factor on a medium. Can some things not leave you feeling confused? Either way why did you just set that rule
Imagine a story where the two main theme contradict.. maybe it’s unconventional but it’s already just “bad” off the rip?
@@algar6616I think to put it more vulgarly, its as if you make a story about a society of heroes, that is flawed and villians are the result of this flawed society, only to resolve it by saying it was actually the fault of a evil 200 year old baby that set up all the bad things, not because of society but because he was inherintly evil literally since birth - oh wait its just My Hero Academia😂
The reason Link stayed a wolf when he went to Orden was because the evil of the twilight wasn't banished away
Slight correction, cause that’s partially right. It’s cause dark power of twilight was still cursing him. The only ones capable of removing the curse were the light spirits, and then later the master sword. Once Link obtained the master sword and used it to remove the twilight shard, he used both to freely transform at will (touch shard, turn into wolf. touch sword, turn human)
So logically, that suggests that even if the twilight shard were removed, he'd stay a wolf until he touched the Master Sword.
@@derekw8039 yes. Originally Midna and Link didn’t even want the ability to transform at will. They originally just wanted to get to the master sword (the sword known to repel evil) so that link could touch it (or at least get close to it) so that the shard that was forced into him could be removed. Once They discovered in that moment that link was capable of more than just touching the master sword and wield / they knew they had the sword in his possession, they decided to keep the shard rather than toss it
@@derekw8039 if we want to get real technical, it’s not confirmed that simply touching the shard is what turns him into a beast. It could be a case that the shard is forced back into him. Regardless, the shard is what’s turning link into a wolf, and the sword is either turning him back human or forcing the shard back out which turns him human
@@Jose_Ruiz932 Either way, the game explicitly states that there was a shard keeping him in wolf form, and I'm surprised Ceave missed it.
Why does no one talk about how TP is the only Zelda game where Zelda’s hair color is different I think more games should explore Zeldas with other hair colors
she's a redhead in zelda 1 and 2 i think
34:44 Its not literally showing *Link* and *Ilia.* They are stand-ins for the story, illustrating what happened with the Interlopers. The Interlopers are the Twili's ancestors and this story is explaining this group that had been banished to the Twilight Realm. Its describing people turning on each other in order to get their hands on the Triforce, represented by Link and Ilia turning on each other, and the blind greed they had to obtain it, illustrated by the blank eyes and Link in a trance running toward the Triforce.
The Light Spirit is warning Link that that greed for power can happen to him too if he isn't careful, as Link is searching for the pieces of the Fused Shadows without even knowing anything about them, what they really are, or the power they contain. Even Midna didn't fully know the power they contained judging from how she reacted when she killed Zant. It terrified her that it only took a fraction of its power to do so, almost signifying that *killing* him wasn't even her intention. That it just happened out of a rage that it influenced within her because she snaps out of it immediately after it happens.
32:53 wtf, you're viewing the cutscene so literally.
I've never seen anyone not understand this cutscene before, least of all this badly. Even at the age of 13 this was easy to understand. They spell it out for you using simple explanations and cinematography.
I know the English localizations of Zelda games aren't that great when it comes to the important story and lore and they like to alter important details, but come on, this is cut and dry.
Yeah, this video is really bombing for me. The entire interloper backstory scene is using Link and Ilia as stand ins for Normal Ass Hylian People, actors presenting the stage play of how the Twilight Realm came to be.
Just as an aside, Dark Interloper is a name that NoA made up out of nowhere because it sounded cool.
your "don't worry, that's not the final boss fight in the background" bit is always comedy gold in these videos
Dude… the cutscene isnt ment for rorshadowing its a metafore and its ment to make you feel very confused and uncomfortable
A metaphor for what though?
@@Greg_Boing The formation of the Fused Shadow and the people who planned on taking the Triforce but got sealed. Also a metaphor for the corruption and temptation of power.
You're entitled to your opinions, but most of them are just... poorly thought out.
So you spent forever rambling about liminal spaces, then you decided that the twilight in the the game is supposed to be a liminal space. Then you somehow confused yourself because the game didn't go with your head canon that you just made up.
Creatures of twilight actively conquering the world of light with a twister army.
That's not a difficult or confusing plot line to understand. It's simplistic.
Second, Link doesn't really have a character arc. You can consider that a bad thing if you want, but it's not uncommon for a hero to be perfect in literature and myths. Link has the exact same "character arc" in pretty much every zelda game. Most of the time he doesn't even fit the hero's journey. He's just a fearless young boy doing his own thing. Something evil happens and he dives head-long into facing it because evil = bad and single handedly defeats every challenge he's faced with.
The only growth that takes place is in physical power. He has no character flaws. the only mistake he ever really makes is in Oot because he gets played.
Link's journey is closer to Beowulf than anything more fleshed out. and it's that way in pretty much every game.
I *know* that you know that Zelda is a prisoner because she surrendered. This is why she's imprisoned and can't help her people. This is why the people of hyrule are *only* spirits instead of dead/dead.
and Midna mocks her and calls her a weak leader, yes.
However,
A: This is Midna projecting because she feels guilty for having been powerless to save her own people.
B: We are immediately shown what would have happened if she'd refused through the Zora.
The Queen of the Zora refused to surrender and as a result she was executed, her son was left sickly and on the verge of death with nobody to help him. and after she was dead, they froze all the Zora and left them for dead and a warning to any others who might oppose Zant.
Yes, it's brutal and dark. That's the point. Zelda made the best pick out of the only two bad choices she had.
Going to ignore your complaint about about tonal whiplash, because again, this is something every modern zelda game does. Doesn't matter hiw serious stuff gets, you're pretty much always 5 minutes away from some wacky mini game or colorful character.
The art direction is just a matter of opinion.
The cutscene at lake hylia is doing a could things.
To start out with, it's clearly a subversion of OoT's cutscenes.
It starts out framing it exactly like the creation myths in that game do.
Then, suddenly, people are stabbing eachother, which is purely for shock value. Which is also the reason that they use Link and are used here.
This isn't supposed to be some weird foreshadowing, it's back story.
They're showing that, like in the LttP and OoT, the fight for the Triforce has caused many seemingly ordinary people to turn on eachother our of pure greed for it's power. It's trying to show the horror of having your childhood friend try to kill you because they only see you as an obstacles.
Link and Ilia are used to show that they aren't really any different from the people who fell into this conflict.
Then suddenly Link is one of the people weilding dark powers. This is to show that, again, even though they seem evil, these are STILL just ordinary people killing eachother and lusting for power when the gods see what's going on and decide "okay, now nobody gets it and you all need to be separated."
I could go on, but so many of these points don't even feel like they were made in good faith.
I actually strongly disagree, the story in my opinion is the best in the series right alongside Majora’s Mask. I’m actually quite surprised that you find the story weak.
This is the first STRONG disagreement I have with Ceave. Link literally loses his identity after the cutscene. He’s turned back into the wolf and can’t change back. The concepts of betrayal are also immediately explored. And Linl CERTAINLY feels lonely when Midna is in shrimp form and can’t help.
Like… it’s all right there.
That infamous cutscene of the interlopers/dark link and falling Illia's are very much related to the story. It's very clear that obviously these are not supposed to be literal events that could have happened in the story. It's all symbolic and from the viewpoint of a light spirit. Naturally, the light spirit would have a very strong distaste for anything related to the Twili as it was commanded by its god to banish them for evil acts. The interlopers were a mixed tribe/clan of people from all over that were proficient in magic that was deemed too much for the mainland Hyrule. Midna later shares her perspective on that banishment and how they were essentially condemned for all future generations due to experimenting with magic countless years prior.
The cutscene is purely symbolic of how absolute power corrupts all who wield it. The theme of puppets and the uncanny figures acting unnaturally is directly tied to how the Fused Shadows and Mirror of Twilight shards immediately corrupt all those who come into contact with them. Even Ganondorf himself makes Zelda his puppet as the first phase of the final fight.
Also, Midna has that power because she is a direct descendant of the original banished interlopers and that power was passed down until it reached her. She never had to properly use it until that moment since so much was at stake.
The ending is amazing too, that's a part of the video I can't understand of it being terrible. You can hate it, but saying it's terrible is quite the stretch when the story so clearly laid out as soon as you saw the broken mirror that only a true ruler of the Twilight could break the mirror. It was foreshadowed quite early on.
im glad someone said this, i understood most of the criticism but this one immediately took me out of the video, the game clearly states that this is something that happened before and could repeat again if power comes into bad hands, its supposed to be a cautionary tale of what happened before and its completely related to the game, it just felt like ignoring it because he didnt like it
Yeah I have no clue what Ceave's talking about in this video. He's usually pretty good at analysis but it feels like he just didn't try very hard with this game.
@@kipame Yeah, honestly felt really weird, because his explanation was pretty solid up until saying it was contradictory to each of the other themes. They simply tie in to each other.
@@Jay-cg5hk This cutscene is one of the best in all of Zelda imo
@@JJLarge honestly, I love it. The imagery is uncanny for a reason. It's supposed to be unsettling. The story is so much better due to that. Definitely agree with you there
as a child, I struggled to pay attention to the story of a game I was playing. I liked aesthetics, and I liked gameplay. The cinematic navigation you mention was a big part of what made Twilight Princess so memorable in the end, because child me wouldn't have cared a bit about whether the darker parts of the world were called "twilight" or "shadow" or anything else.
As I grew up, I became more picky. The bug-catching became an annoyance, because the colours are so bleak on the technically weak system of the console, relatively speaking. To date that's still what I remember the most; not having replayed the game in ages, always telling me that I dind't particularly like "such a big part of the game", I found myself convinced that it was actually important, when it really was just the first half. I completely forgot about the character arcs and character-dependent story beats.
The more I think about the game, the more fond memories return. The dungeons, the characters, the emotions I've felt. Particularly the emotion of hate at the game for interrupting Midna's Lament with the generic battle music whenever I ran into an enemy on Hyrule Field between the game's halves. But really, I look back in fondness; but only when I do so consciously, because most of my subconscious associations are still the aesthetics and early gameplay, and I think that's really interesting.
1:13:55 Respecting different cultures but not mixing with them is also a moral which makes sense. It would also be very fitting for Japan.
Yeah, I could totally see it as trying to say, "The West should have left us alone."
@@KevinDayMaybe the man intentionally change the story theme, since zelda story are often inspired by the development process.(they don’t want to be mixed with the western culture, the writers was forced to change the game because of that)
Yeah I agree, live and let live, works fine. I do like the suggested theme of life & death though, feels like it would tie together all the other themes really well.
No matter whats happening in my life your voice makes me happy. I'm doing good rn but you got me through some hard times... thank you.
I started watching when all his videos were about a game I had never purchased, played or had any interest in playing, and just loved listening to his enthusiasm and passion about everything in it, so I definitely feel you on that. At this point, I always think of his pronunciation of "hooray" when I see the word haha
I love the Lanayru spirit custene! It gives us some lore, but it's also the spirit giving Link a warning about the corruption effects of power by recounting that lore using link himself and the girl he likes as place holder for people involved. even if it were just random nonsense, it's still damn evocative imagery
The first half of the game: we collect fused shadows (artefact with great but cursed power) for Midna, a character whom we barely trust at this point
The message of the Lanayru cutscene: power is a dangerous tool that corrupts and brings betrayal
The game does a 180 thematically because everything that the Lanayru cutscenes sets up never ends up happening
@laytonjr6601 Except in a way, it did. Just not specifically with the fused shadow. Lanayru gives us a warning that “*those that do not understand* will be controlled by it.” Midna is being made aware, and almost does start on that when she kills Zant. But Zant *is* essentially the embodiment of that though. He didn’t fully understand the power he was offered, he just wanted it out of anger, and was fully controlled by it. It was everything to him.
@@davidbeer5015 While I agree that these events could be interpreted as following that message, the game itself fails to really show that.
They don't nearly have the impact that vision itself had, leaving the warning without payoff.
Twilight princess is my favourite zelda game, despite its flaws. I agree that it's a very flawed game, but also some of the points you bring up are just... a bit weird ?
game taking too long to start - Yeah, there's a long time until you get to the first dungeon. However that's only an issue if you compare it to other zelda games. You still do things before reaching that dungeon ! Going to save the kids for the first time, the hyrule castle thing, the stealth... It's not as if you're sitting through hours and hours of cutscenes and fetch-quests. You're spending that time going around, exploring small areas, yes, but still exploring, and so on.
the cutscene - goddamit. Yes that cutscene is ridiculous but also goddamit. Ilia and Link represent regular people here. They're not meant to be Ilia and Link. Them stabbing each other and fighting each other is to show that the allure of the triforce's power could turn even childhood friends against each other. Link suddenly killing himself and switching role like that symbolizes the destruction of the self that follows seeking that power. This cutscene is the moment where the origin of the fused shadows is revealed. And also...
major theme of power corrupting - This cutscene is where we get the first idea of power that corrupts. You say this isn't brought up anymore but it is ! You say there are no puppets after this in the game but there are !! There is literally a phase of the final boss that's a puppet ! Zant himself is a puppet to Ganondorf ! He was seeking raw power, and oh boy did he get it, but he also got irremediably damaged by it ! Midna also has stuff about that with the fused shadows ! The way she kills zant is by using a fraction of the fused shadows, and she's terrified by it because she has lost all control on her own power ! And I'm pretty sure this comes up in the Hyrule Castle part of the game as well, that she can't control the fused shadows. Even if it's not brought up in dialog, it's quite clear from the way she breaks the seal on Hyrule Castle that she has absolutely no agency on her actions once the fused shadows take over.
twilight realm - Also, I feel that the severing of the connection between light and shadow makes sense already, in a way. It's said that the inhabitants of the twilight realm are prisoners who were banished there, and eventually formed their own kingdom. This is also why Zant is angry about the twili royals not rioting : he's mad at them for being fine with being rejects, slaves, prisoners. I think it's fair, when you consider that history, that Midna wants to sever that connection. To me it reads more as a "this was fun but please leave us alone. you did send us to the evil shadow realm then demonize us. maybe you're not evil but please leave us alone" which is. entirely fair !
I do agree with a lot of things, but these issues just kept nagging and I had to take a few breaks while watching this video to not fly off the handle
Agreed. He made a lot of weird points in this video. It's funny how he's saying there's a tonal problem in this game because there's flying with chickens and minigames. He remembers this is in most Zelda game right? Even Majora's Mask, the "darkest" Zelda game.
@@kpwu I always interpreted the cutscene not only about regular people, but that among the characters the game calls into question concerning how they handle power, they’re even bold enough to question YOU, the player, through Link. It’s a meta way to make the player question how they may use power in their own life.
I love that cutscene so much, and great way to tackle his points overall too 👍🏼
Wind Waker is just as bad at taking forever to start though. The game makes you go through Forsaken Fortress, do an entire stealth section, get the sail in Windfall Island and sail to Dragon Roost Island before the game actually starts.
@@metaltornado3457 does that not count as the game ? it introduces you to some mechanics and has stealth, makes you go through a short dungeon-like space and such.
what i meant was that zelda games have a special standard compared to other game where they're seen as starting only when entering the first dungeon. you could go through anything for any length of time before that and that will always be dismissed because it's not the first dungeon. breath of the wild broke that stigma and i hope it never ever comes back.
@@kpwu Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom have the Great Plateau and Great Sky Island as tutorial areas serving largely the same purpose. The reason dungeons are seen as the start of most Zelda games is because most Zelda games center around using your weapons and magic to solve puzzles to discover dungeons and then find new weapons and magic that let you get to previously unreachable areas. Botw gives you most of its exploration abilities like Cryonis, Magnesis, the Bomb rune and the glider during the tutorial so there isn't as much of a sense of progression as in previous games where these would be hidden on the overworld or rewards for completing a dungeon. Because of this, it mostly replaces dungeons with hundreds of optional Sheikah Shrines and Korok Seeds that give nothing but health/stamina and inventory upgrades.
This is a very well put together video essay, and making one this cohesive and long with such high quality is very impressive and you should be proud! That being said, I wholly disagree with the premise of this video (and I am so glad I watched it!) I find that this video fails to understand a lot of the creative choices made by the artists working on this game. I don’t wanna be too long with my response so I might be a bit vague, but I think it is good to have good discussion on the rhetoric of any piece of media. So here is where I put on my art major hat and get a little pretentious.
Something about Twilight Princess is that the story is opted to be conveyed more implicitly than explicitly in lots of cases. Scenes are abstracted using strange imagery, sentences are said that seem to never pay off on the surface level. Things are often said without being said, shown by just implying. If you look at this game and ask yourself what is going on beyond the surface text (ie the gameplay and dialogue), I think you will find much more appreciation for the story. Just because the interloper scene has some cool imagery involving link doesn’t mean that link will be doing all the crazy things in that scene later on. What it shows is that as the audience proxy in this world, even they could have become an interloper. I find that with most of the arguments in this video fall flat because there is meaning and purpose behind the abstract symbolism, you just have to think about it a little more.
I’d really recommend doing research on the artistic development behind this game, as well as in static characters. You will find that games like Ico were huge a huge inspiration to the developers. The art design and plot weren’t thrown together like you think they were.
And wind waker 2 did come out! Spirit tracks and the phantom hour glass are direct spiritual successors.
Once again, while I disagree with this video almost completely, I really enjoyed it! Your arguments were very well put together and I was intrigued the entire time. You just gained a new subscriber ^^
no its not
@PlayPodOG
"Long, well-reasoned and well thought out arguement-"
"No"
"Worst art direction in the series" Link's Awakening Remake is right there, c'mon
I loved the Link's Awakening Remake art style: it really captured the GameBoy graphics feel for me.
What art style would you have preferred?
@@Ianmar1 Twilight Princess' art style, for one.
@@Wendy_O._Koopa That would be interesting, Link's Awakening in the Twilight Princess art style.
33:14 You're taking this way too literally. Its obviously not meant to feature events that happen
Just “bought” Twilight Princess on my Wii U solely so that I could watch this video. I’ll be back in a week after beating it.
29:50 static protagonist vs dynamic protagonist
A static protagonist is a protagonist that doesn’t change but changes the world around them
NEW CEAVE LET'S GO
1:21:30 Comparing the attachment rate between a GameCube game and a Wii game seems strange to me. IMHO most Wii owners were casual people not really into gaming, e.g. lured into the console by Wii Sports.
Super Mario Run had 80 million downloads within the first year. However there are about 6 billion mobile phone users soooooooo
I actually love the beginning, as well as the art style, which i think looks really cool
I hornstly want another Zelda game in this style but with modern tech
completely agree!
@@clouds-rb9xt Ditto!
Interesting that this game also had a direct sequel planned and it was struck down.
Yeah for links crossbow training instead 💀
While that would've been interesting I think the reason was because Skyward Sword was in development around this same time so Miyamoto didn't want the entire team to shift their focus to that side project.
Its generous to say a sequel was "planned" when really it was a small b-team assigned to make a budget pack in spin off who asked to make a full AAA Zelda at the same time as AAA Zelda was already in development. Of course it didnt happen. Why would they say yes to that?
@@Tamacat388 Because they made Majora's Mask in one year reusing assets, and it's one of the most beloved games in the entire franchise. What kind of idiot (cough Miyamoto) would say "No" to a direct sequel? Hell, the _other_ direct sequel at this point in history was Link's Awakening... the _other_ one of the most beloved games in the entire franchise.
I feel that the scene where the Light Spirit warns Link about being consumed by power, the imagery isn’t so much referring to Link becoming a puppet, but Zant.
Also, tonally, just because the game isn’t consistent for its full runtime does not matter. I’m a series where Ocarina of Time and Majora’s Mask exist, I don’t think it’s really all that jarring. It’s just the tone of the series itself.
True. Arguably OOT has even bigger tonal shifts, like just comparing the two versions of Castle Town.
@@ryanmccampbell7 It arguably works in OoT's favor since we get to see Hyrule Castle Town at peace during Link's childhood and how it contrasts to Hyrule under Ganondorf's rule seven years later. Ocarina of Time is really the only Zelda game where we get to see Hyrule at the height of its power, every other game it's either fallen to invasion and Link needs to save it or the game takes place somewhere else. It helps to build a sense of stakes to the adventure.
Pretty sure the Light Spirit doesn't know Zant is a puppet to Ganondorf by that point. So that very much isn't it. It's more like a warning to either Link, or Midna, in which neither happens anyways, so no payoff. You shouldn't be surprised about that at this point for the game, considering the kids being kidnapped had little to no payoff either.
@@byronlyons3548 something like that doesn't have to be so literal. Just because it isn't about Link specifically, doesn't mean it isn't paid off.
@@elvishcyborg4275 But they already saw what it does to someone who carelessly touches them. So why should the Light spirit tell Link and by proxy of being in his shadow, Midna, all of this then? If for one, they weren't talking about others touching it, and two, it doesn't end up happening to neither Link or Midna at the end.
So once again, no payoff.
Time to listen to a guy criticize my favorite game for an hour and a half. 😂
There's a lot of things I agree with in this video but I kinda feel that you were unecessarily harsh on the "Flipped Ilias" cutscene, which for me was obviously metaphoric. So I don't find the latter absence of flipped Ilias as being a big deal, it being a sort of "fall of men" type of imagery, things being flipped upside down, innocence corrupted, turning against one another etc. (Also, possibly a NGE reference?) It was a flashback to what had happened with all characters replaced as Ilia and Link, two counterparts, men and women, friends and lovers and what have you, turning against each other. As far as it being random creepy imagery, kinda, but only because we don't really learn much of anything relating to this later on, which makes this cutscene a bit disconnected and in that sense, random. They obviously went for creepy, that's a given, but I don't think it's that jarring considering the game in general goes for mature, creepy and jarring in many places. Also, in this section you mention we don't see anyone being puppeted afterwards, but we do. Zelda, in the very end of the game. This all said, you're right about the tone being all over the place, Link's character arc and most other things. I love and will always love TP for many things, but it is a bit of a mess. It's funny, really, I love the atmosphere and the mood of the game, but the tonal dissonance and the messy story always stick out when I revisit the game. It's like I'm somewhere and thinking to myself that man, I really like this liminal space-feeling of this, this eerie, strange music and the dream-like feeling of it all and then another story beat comes around and I'm just ripped out of my comfy place and forced to cringe my way through another cutscene.
(Ps. How dare you, Malo IS important)
Now I want Ceave to read the Zelda Twilight Princess manga and report back to see how it does the story differently. I’ve never read it and don’t have time, but have always wanted to hear a comparison of the manga and game
As a long time Zelda fan, I couldnt even finish this game's tutorial. When they made me heard sheep and fish and go after kittens... I just quit. And guess what! Nothing bad happened to the world! And I lived happily ever after.
The idea of "accepting death" being the original theme of the game makes so much sense! Even with things you critiqued in the finished game, like Colin's character development and Ganondorf's execution. The lesson that Colin originally learned was that in order to be strong one has to be willing to accept death, which he did when he sacrificed himself to save Beth. He admires Link because Link already carries that quality within himself after having been transformed into a wolf and spending time in twilight.
Ganondorfs execution failed, that means the sages failed at sending him to the shadow realm, and instead sent him into the twilight, the realm between light and shadow. Meaning Ganondorf was not quite alive anymore but neither was he quite dead. In the final game he appears to Zant in as a weird floating fiery head thing which could be an indicator that he was stuck somewhere between two worlds so to speak.
The main question I am left with is what implications this change would have had for the inhabitants of Castle Town. If being stuck in twilight means that one is stuck inversen the realms of the living and the dead, what kind of consequences would that bring? Because I definitely agree that in the final game the effects of the twilight seem to be basically zero. If anyone has any ideas on what would make thematic sense, I would love to hear them!
guess in the end they could have accepted that they are dead and they move on, with the empty castle becoming a new kingdom with the kids or something idk.
But sometimes I wonder if the ceave guy isnt just projecting his own stuff into all the videos, becomes he made like five about "its about accepting death and the unknown"
you know, itd be really interesting if the zelda team leaned in fully into the dark themes and gave the *player* the option to fall into temptation over the fused shadow as prophesied by the metophorical vision from the light spirit. they never do follow up on it at all.
it doesnt even have to be a game over type deal. it could then come fill circle to collin, who has to stand up to link in his corruped state.
I think that Link was always supposed to be a hero [BOTW style], not grow into a hero, but instead it is a journey of Link understanding just what he is defending, and understanding that being a hero means helping those who need it regardless and living for what is right regardless of where you came from. This is a lesson for Midna as well. It is not about accepting that other cultures are [also] good. It's about accepting that all cultures do evil [even ours]. And with that shattering the mirror makes perfect sense.
If the twilight realm was where dead people went, the explanation for Ganon getting there would have been much simpler; the execution would have just been successful.
And the mirror shattering would have been a foregone conclusion. "Now he can't get out to take the Tri-Force again, so we can maybe probably handle him."
Your videos are the best videos to watch while working on a project!!
2:09 But Ceave, the final boss IS a Hoglin! Or, er, looks like one. I like how the ‘not the final boss’ joke is always something similar to the final boss & only people who have seen the final boss will make the connection.
SPROIGLER WHARNIGN
Really doing the joseph anderson "This game is so good and so bad at the same time" and im all here for it
Dark Souls 3 moment
@yeembus Dark Souls 3 really is terrible and great at the same time
Great video Ceave! Keep up the hard work. Also I hope the algorithm starts to love you as much as all your fans do!
Being "Wind Waker 2", this thematic direction makes so much sense. As it was said, Wind Waker was about embracing change and letting the past go, the sequel would be about embracing that things must end and basically letting your own future go too.
It's interesting to imagine how it would have carried out in a continuation of Wind Waker's world: Some expanded seafaring, but now with twilight liminal zones? A new continent, or perhaps, multiple ones seperated by open sea (which itself can serve as its own liminal space)? And with Ganondorf having been killed effectually in the first game, it makes a lot of sense for him to arrive in the Twilight Realm to then attempt at taking over there: Exploiting angry and vain souls like Zant, who is unwilling to accept that his life is over and how that means he cannot ever live as a king. The Twilight Realm basically being a purgatory for souls who are still in the liminal space of having past disputes and passions left unsettled.
I can imagine this version of Ganondorf having his execution scar on top of his head rather than through the chest, this time holding a ghostly version of the master sword that killed him. It would also have been a chance to shed some light on how the process works that keeps making it possible to ressurect him.
Also, literally sailing into the realm of the dead with your own boat has some striking potential as imagery
And to think that Wind Waker was a half-finished game because of time constraints! Imagine if Nintendo had cooked with these games without the opinions of "zelda fans" influencing them, and without such tight deadlines.
Isn’t spirit tracks WW2
I do disagree with a good few of the points in this video, but I think most of the comments have already addressed most of that. I did just want to say that I appreciate you looking at details that aren't normally talked about when discussing this game. for example pointing out that not only the story but gameplay emphasize the loss of midna in her rescue section, fighting enemies without her attack, not something i've seen talked about specifically before.
Bro did not cool with this one
The idea of the dead turning into, or rather, transitioning into, the twili also wraps up the whole earlier bit about the person who was attacked being transformed into one as well.
Rusl doesn't know of the twilight realm, all he knows is he heard ("They say [...]") twilight has to do with spirits. Twilight isn't the twilight he thinks it is, and spirits aren't those of dead people as he thinks they are.
Bruh I disagree with so much more, this game is absolute perfection to me. If you are interested in the perspective of someone who loves it too (and has similar opinions to me), I recommend watching Internet Pitstop's video on the game.
maybe the accepting culture wasnt a theme
Definitely didn't seem intended as a theme. Midna accepted Zelda, but that was pretty much the extent of it. Zelda was already accepting of Midna, and the monsters of the Twilight turning out to be the Twili fits with other parts of the story where we're told and shown that the same thing happens to Hylians and Gorons. It's not the two sides accepting each other, it's everyone being victims of Zant/Ganon. And Midna breaking the mirror was because of people like Zant that had the potential to emerge from her realm. Zant was powered up by Ganon to overpower her, but she (and by extension, her successors) would have enough power, coupled with the tactical advantage of the Twilight, to be a major problem for Hyrule. An army that can use magic to affect you from a realm you can't see is going to be a major issue if her great-great-grandkid decides revenge for the ancient Interloper ancestors is a great excuse for conquest.
I really don't mind Link having no arc of his own. I think, him being unwaveringly courageous begins the moment the godesses' blessing via the triforce saves him from the effects of the twilight. Once we transform back, we are the hero, wearing the hero's tunic and all. It is communicated early enough in the game to not expect much growth, if any at all.
To that I want to add, that many character's in fiction are like this - not really having an arc, I mean. They instead create arcs in other characters. These heroes may not be flawless, but one or two traits of them cause others to look up to them, and change because of them. One notorious character for this trope is Goku. Of course comicbook heroes are often like this too - unwavering in their ways, inspiring others to pick up hero work too.
We are the hero, we do hero stuff. Others admire us for it, and some even change thanks to our deeds. Nothing is being robbed from us - we know what we want to do, and we know who we are.
Regarding multiple things that seem weird in the story telling, I'd argue that they are very well done, because they are ambiguous. The start sequence of the game is mere superstition - we find out what twilight really is, and there is enough overlap between the superstition and "reality" to understand where the idea comes from. The people are absolutely not fine, just because they seemingly can go on about their day - they live in perpetual fear, an unchanging state of life, within the liminal space of twilight. A rather frightening prospect to endure. The twilight is the change from light to darkness - it brings introduces the first fall of darkness of the day (as presented by the hulking twilight monsters) and it saps the light away (via the bugs). The interloper scene has MUCH to be interpreted, but the community consensus seems to be that it is about greed that even Link is not immune to - the light spirit showed Link directly the danger of such powers by giving him a taste of it. Whether the endless number of falling Ilyas is about lust, revenge, or something entirely different is left up for our personal interpretation, as Link is a blank slate for us. The game does a lot less to spell things out, and I think that this is unconventional, but not bad story-telling. Instead it makes us experience the world first hand and lets us shape our own worldviews, which may or may not be correct - either is fine and has no bearing on the more tangible things about Hyrule, just like in reality.
Lastly, I think you took the narrative point regarding different cultures too far. It was exploring polar opposites (evil vs good manifesting in dark vs light), not simply cultures , but it did so with people as vessels for both forces. As Zelda said, both light and dark are opposite sides of the same coin - they cannot be separated. Destroying the mirror only destroys the spillover, which is a very important point if you look at it not through the lense of culture, but through the lense of contradiction.
The light realm is presented as the good realm. The other as the evil realm. This is emphasized by the sages, stating that they transported only evil beings away,. Evil pervades the realm of the Twili, and with "evil" being an actual driving force of their reality, it can and must be physically sealed away, if Goodness (in the form of the light realm) is to be preserved. The Twili can deal with such evil - they may not be evil, yet they are born from it. But the light realm can't. Their interaction leads to twilight, a fearsome liminal space, spreading chaos. Who was harmed by the twilight? Was it both sides? No. Only the light realm suffered of it - the Twili suffered under Zant, but he and the twilight are not the same thing. You come to this very conclusion when you assume that the story might have been about the world of the dead at some point - life and death being such polar opposites. It's all still there. Though I would love your version to be more explicitly stated, the entire game leaves a lot to be interpreted, and I do not see a contradiction between your speculation about the dead, and the game having malformed Twili by Zant be harmless once calmed via the soothing light of light orbs.
36:10 honestly such a good transition in the video. complete change in tone I was losing stamina at this point of the vidoe but the way you transition to this point made me excited to keep watching
I feel like the chests appearing out of nowhere can just be explained by magic. Like Zant put a magic seal on the chest and once you destroyed the dark enemies the seal went away. And a character does get controlled like a puppet, Zelda in the final boss.
I was genuinely baffled during that whole portion of realism "critique," with the concern over spawning chests being the biggest "what" moment for me. Ceave usually has so much good to say, but that sadly wasn't it. It's not like the chests suddenly appear from nothing in a blink... The effect is very obviously meant to illustrate a magically imbued circumstance, wherein the hero who successfully completes whatever task is rewarded for their efforts. It's so easily understandable, hence why no has ever reported this as any kind of issue on the game's part, that I can't fathom how Ceave thought it was worth bringing up in a negative light.
@@megamillion5852 Agreed, I've liked all his videos until this one. Major disappointment.
Absolutely fantastic video, so much research... great job, thank you yet again.
This link has a flat arch. and honestly if there was only one zelda game and one hero of courage, it might be a risk to have your main character have a flat arch but there are so many zelda game and so many links not every one of them has to have a traditional character arch. in fact it feels like Midna is more of the main character and link is her guardian helping her set things right. Kinda like how final fantasy 10 made the player a regular party member and Yuna was the chosen hero destined to save the world and the party follows her. If there was only one final fantasy game that'd be kinda weird, but after 9 games of being the chosen hero/party leader it's an interesting twist to be a side character.
33:03 Okay, I can't necessarily stand 100% beside you on this take, because I believe I get it. Link and Ilia in these cutscenes are "actors". They REPRESENT different characters as avatars more or less, so you can't take it literal. I mean there is no excuse to portray it like that and that doesn't make it better, but to me, just understanding what they were going for makes me hate it less.
Cynical critiques truly are the downfall of media literacy
I always thought Midna fell for Link but knowing that she is immortal, Link is not, Midna shattered the mirror. Letting go of Link and tying into the games themes of loss and sacrifice. That’s why she says “see you later”
Because she knows she will see Link’s successors, but never *her* link.
Your analyses are awesome man
How in the world is holding down on the c-stick, complicated fishing controls?
Its more ambiguous on Wii.
@@Tamacat388 it's...really not. It's a WII REMOTE. Motion controls are literally one of the selling points of it.
YIPPEE NEW CEAVE VIDEO!!!!! I always love watching these videos while I draw. I can’t wait to watch this!!!!
Props to Ceave for not having any sponsors
It's a lot harder to get a sponsor for a video on a small second channel.
i mean im sure he wants sponsors, probably just hard to get them at this point. nothing wrong with sponsors either, gotta get that bread
@@Dan-km8jethere is a lot wrong with most sponsors tbh.
But that's ✨capitalism✨ you gotta endorse products/services that you don't actually like/you know are malicious/ you know are more bad than good for your audience, so you can get enough money to survive. Amazing isn't it !
What a coincidence! I just rewatched your Superstar Saga video earlier today. Looking forward to this!
Idk, I thought the story was very good, outside of Zelda coming back at the end. Link’s character isn’t super important, it’s all about how he helps other people. The way I see it, Colin and his ark is the way it is because he is young. He has always looked up to link, so when Link saves him, Colin realizes how much he truly cares about helping people. When Link nods his head, it’s simultaneously a way to make Colin feel better, as well as reassurance that he will help restore peace to the place that he now resides. Additionally, the Twilight is really only called that, not because it’s meant to block out the light, but because the race is called the “Twili”. It’s still oddly confusing like you said, but I definitely think it’s at least understandable enough with setting aside real world parallels. I also think that the cutscene after the third Tears of Light segment is well done symbolism, as it’s meant to warn Link about the power of the Fused shadow, and the warning of not abusing its power. It inserts Link and his best friend, and shows how the power can manipulate him to attack his best friend, as that is what happened to the interlopers. And when they lost that power, when it was sealed away, they had lost everything. And it was meant as a warning for Link to not fall for the immense power of Shadow. I definitely think the story has flaws, but I ultimately think that it’s the characters like Midna, Colin, the Hero’s Shade, and Zant, that elevate the game immensely. That cutscene is ultimately a really great parallel to Zant, when it is revealed that he swore himself to Ganondorf in an attempt to gain any power at all, because of his greed and selfishness. And when the mask comes off, his true power shows itself, that being a weak man who doesn’t have any skills of his own. And it is beautifully shown in his boss fight. All he does is reuse tactics from fights you’ve already done. He has nothing to offer himself. All he does is copy and throw everything at you. When that doesn’t work, he flails around and tries to attack Link with no real skill or energy, but Link is a talented swordsman, and beats him. It all works really well. When we see that cutscene, we are warned about how power can consume you, and then we see someone like Zant, where that power completely consumed him. It works really well in my opinion, but I also think that the story is a little messy in many ways. Pretty much everything else you mentioned, especially the kidnappings that are very very poorly written, are all valid complaints to the story. I just figured I’d offer up my perspective.
It's called "Twilight" because they changed the name in Localization. It's just called the "Shadow Realm" in Japanese, Twilight is only used for Midna's title.
@papersonic9941 So they really sent my boy Link to the Shadow Realm, huh?
Wonder where Jimbo is.
(Jokes aside, that's an interesting detail, thanks for pointing it out)
35:04, but there is, Zelda herself gets possesed in the final battle.
Also, that whole cutscene is just a visual representation, that even between two good friends or lovers, the idea of power of the triforce wields corrupts absolutely, even heroes like Link. For the interlopers I think they are supposed to represent the other side of the same coin, they are still people who were once normal denizens of Hyrule who once used destructive means to regain their place in the light realm. The multiple Ilias might just be a representation of what Link would get corrupted by, even a hero like his still has desires he could betray his own values for such a promise.
I do agree this doesn't have much of a resolution, Link really cannot stir off from his heroic path because he's the player in a sense, but Midna does learn of sacrifice and mercy, I think had she not, she'd have killed Zelda when Ganondorf possesed her and Ganondorf would've won, since Zelda was a key player in defeating him in the end.
I just want to reiterate that I am so glad you're back to making videos Ceave! Always a pleasure!
wow the way you always put stories together like this are amazing. your version of the story would have made this game one of the best stories I've ever heart.
My God you have too much fucking free time on your hands
Just gotta say I love how you update your channel banner with a new character for every new vid 🔥
CEAVE!!!! I'm so ready to watch this!!!!! So glad we're getting your thoughts on games more and more
I love how you always go on long, seemingly unrelated tangents without explaining anything until the very end so much in these. I'm particularly thinking about the three separate narrative reveals--it was so funny and accurate.
Aesthetically Twilight Princess is my absolute favorite
Yeah it feels the most gothic fantasy of all Zelda games
When I was a kid the mounted combat with the goblins and subsequent jousting with the boss was one of the most epic experiences I've had in gaming. If I need a bunch of children to get kidnapped to have that, that's the price I'm willing to pay.
Always a pleasure to receive a notification from you !
Literally just finished the Outer Wilds video after beating the game yesterday, and now there's ANOTHER new Ceave video to watch! It must be my birthday.
I don't have a problem with Zant breaking down into temper tantrums because his plans have just fallen apart and he pretty much knows that he is not leaving with his life. I wish there was more glimpses into his madness, but we learn at the start of the game that his ambitions for things denied to him because of his worldviews are the cause for is rebellion and title of Usurper King Zant. But it is not like Zelda has ever had proper lore or told a story that didn't contradict itself at every turn.
Awesome video! This channel's uploads have become such highlights for me, I love your fun content style and nuanced looks into the real artistic aspects behind games
They pulled a 96 metacritic game and it was the best selling game until BOTW came out. For me it was the last great Zelda. SS, BOTW and TOTK have some good moments but definitely not for me. People complain a lot about some of its aspects but complaining about the ending is definitely an unpopular opinion. Unfortunately after MM they put Aonuma on charge of the franchise. First thing he does is ditching all aesthethics OOT/MM built and threw the franchise into this endless identity crisis and fandom fight. Even Miyamoto wasn't happy with his decision. I wonder how Zelda would be nowadays if it had a more consistent evolution like 3D Mario, Souls games, GTA, Elder's Scroll. Lucky as I am my favorite franchise was handled to someone who hates Zelda.
One thing you're missing from the conspiracy board is the SpaceWorld 2000 tech demo. Back in '99, Nintendo was losing to the Dreamcast and the Playstation-- the majority of gamers were interested in more powerful graphics these consoles brought over the N64. Nintendo thus does a hail mary with the Gamecube and the SpaceWorld 2000 demo showing updated models of OOT Adult Link and Ganondorf having a duel in a ruined castle.
This demo was what the Western world had as preview for the new Zelda game. Speculation ran wild over a Zelda OOT sequel with a mature Link, with Ganon returning, with complex combat, with competing graphics. A different sequel from Majora's Mask following the fallen adult timeline instead of the happy ending we got in OOT. Then, two years later after rumors and real no official information, we all of a sudden get Wind Waker. A bright, bubbly, young Link in new world with nothing to do with the Hyrule from OOT. A new Zelda for the Gamecube and a complete disappointment in the eyes of the Western audience after years of build up.
This is why Wind Waker was a failure. At face it appeared to be the complete opposite of everything that was promised by the tech demo. People wanted a mature Link building upon the themes of Majora's Mask set after OOT... not "baby's first adventure game." This is why Wind Waker 2 was dropped for Twilight Princess. It was a complete heel turn because the sales data was really the first time the Japanese developers had any idea what the Western community was hyping up. The Japanese developers weren't even aware the SpaceWorld tech demo was shown. Nintendo basically put out fires by saying Wind Waker wasn't the sequel, there was yet another Zelda game coming, the one the Western audience wanted; it just wasn't ready yet. It will launch with the Wii.
Twilight Princess HAD to be a success. Nintendo couldn't risk a second disappointment after five years of hyping it up at this point. More writers. More staff. More resources in the new hardware! Shove everything at the game! Doesn't matter if it was already in the oven, put more cooks in the kitchen!
I have genuinely never hated a video essay more in my entire life. It’s one thing if you personally don’t like this game’s story, but you shouldn’t throw around moral issues like the ending having culturally insensitive implications or whatever so frivolously.
This is one of my favorite games of all time, and the reason Zelda has been such a major hyperfixation for most of my life. I’m also extremely autistic. It probably wasn’t a good idea to watch a video essay about why my favorite Zelda game is apparently “””objectively bad””” in the first place, and I was already yelling at the screen, but being told that the ending of my favorite Zelda game apparently has racist implications genuinely hurt me in my very core. I actually had to step away from the video and cry. I was convinced that I had to agree with you or else I was just making excuses for racism. It wasn’t until I talked to a couple of friends about it that I realized that this is complete bulblinshit.
First of all, this game is absolutely not trying to express themes of accepting other cultures. We barely even know anything about the Twili’s actual culture, we just spend the entire game fixing their political problems. And if this really is what they were trying to do with the Twili, there are other holes earlier in the story. Why does Midna literally almost die from being in the other culture’s land? Why are the Twili descended from light-dwelling Hylians who went rogue and used dark magic? Why is the only doorway between the cultures literally made by the gods? Besides, I feel like this is a lesson Hyrule should already know, ESPECIALLY this version of Hyrule. I mean, they literally have Gorons and Zoras integrated into their societies. If Hyrule can accept fish people and big rocky guys into their society, I’m sure they wouldn’t have any problems with the vaguely goth aliens.
I feel like you’re almost hitting the mark when you bring up the potential themes of life and death, because I actually do think that’s what the game is going for. It’s just that it’s not as obvious as you want it to be, so you just decided “it’s not there and they replaced it with this other thing I arbitrarily thought of”. The Lanayru hallucination scene (the one you dismissed as just “random meaningless imagery”) explained the backstory of the Twili race as a whole. They were originally light dwellers who used dark magic and got banished to the Twilight Realm, eventually just adapting to the environment. To me, this sounds a hell of a lot like in Christianity when Lucifer and a bunch of other angels tried to rebel against God and get banished to Hell. The Twili are not dead spirits, they’re outsiders made to live AMONG the dead, forever stuck in that weird limbo between the two states of being, or dare I say…Twilight?
So yes, the Twili ARE a group of people with a unique culture, TECHNICALLY. But to say the entire game is trying to express themes of cultural acceptance because of this is a massive stretch, *ESPECIALLY* when it causes you to see the ending as potentially racist. Just be careful with accusations like that, please. This is a piece of art, and art is a very subjective thing. Unless what you’re talking about has blunt racism in the actual text, or the creators themselves are outed as racists, bringing up that interpretation just adds an unnecessary moral issue to the discussion. It can come off like you’re just trying to be more “””””””objectively correct””””””” than everyone else by virtue signaling.
It’s gross and performative, and you only did it to put down a story you personally didn’t like.
Ironically it sort of feels like Aunouma actually *was* taking on board some of the reception and so went for a somewhat darker storyline and themes again, which paired with the more 'realistic' animation style would probably have been a success without requiring any of the additional rewrites.
I can't remember who did this video, but there was an interesting discussion around why TP is the way it is (Zeltik maybe?)... and it has to do with a) the ask from the fans, and b) the growth of video games in a developing society (video games hadnt been around for very long. Those who fell in love with OOT were getting older and WW didn't have a great reception because of the child like art. The developers decided to give people the mature art style to show that video games werent just for children, but adults who also want to play these games). Now, its totally normal for adults to play video games, but in the late 2000s/early 2010s, saying video games were for all ages was a new concept.
the planned existence of a windwaker sequel is really interesting given a certain game that came out a year ago
I mean technically there is a Wind Waker sequel, it's Phantom Hourglass. It's definitely smaller in scale and scope though then a main console sequel would have been. Still worth playing if you can get your hands on it (physically or virtually).
What certain game
@@JJLarge I think he's being a prick about tears of the kingdom. Which at this point should be renamed "Tears of the Fanboys"
@@daniel8181 i have no idea what this means or how all these things relate.
What does Tears of the Kingdom have to do with Wind Waker? It's not like Breath of the Wild is the first Zelda game to get a direct sequel, Majora's Mask was a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time and before that Zelda 2 was a direct sequel to the first game (even though the gameplay was nothing alike).