@Johnny's Reloading Bench Might want to check out the arfcom reloading 300 blackout master thread, page 75 at the very top. I found something that works and is SIERRA BOOK safe. Wonder what results you might get.
I have been having this issue with all sub and super 300blk. Ive been trying to do a 200gr load with A1680 and rem7 1/2 @1050fps for two weeks. Ive tried all the variables. kept getting spread of 80-190. The one thing i didnt think of was how the powder was sitting inside the casing. I am now going to look for the follow video. You are awesome for this video!!
Two points. What's with the S&B groups?... They are a wonky inverse of the other two. And the horizontal shots were only "leveled" for the first shot...the recoil for the follow-up shots may have settled the powder in different positions, perhaps causing a larger deviation.
I don't know! I found the S&B velocities bizarre as well. They were probably the coldest primers of the 3 and that might be the first clue. You are definitely correct on the horizontal shots. I would assume that the followup shots get the powder pushed to the front of the case when they stop in the chamber.
I have a very old reloading manual which had a 45/70 data with very light charges. A recommendation of 2 grains of polyester pillow ticking in the case between the charge and base of bullet held the powder and made the speed rather equal. The polyester burns up on ignition.
I've had the same issue. I don't have near as much deviation with the longer heavier projectiles. I'm assuming that it's because they sit so much further in the case. Great work as always.
When shooting 30/30 in a Thompson contender I used oatmeal to fill case with less than compressed loads. This increased accuracy since I was shooting silhouette out to 200 meters. This was in 1985 and everyone used the practice.
I am curios if there is a combination of seating the surplus M80 147gr bullets deeper and a higher (still subsonic) powder charge of AA1680 that might mitigate the issue. Heck, accuracy could improve if the velocity could be made more consistent. Case fillers sound sketchy to me, maybe because I have never used one. Looking forward to future videos.
Hey Shawn here in TN, I’ve been loading 300 BLK for about 8 years, I’ve found that if you pick a powder that touches the base of the bullet this problem goes away, I only shoot subs but I expect that the problem exists with supers also, but remember that heavy subs are the way to go, because the load density with subsonic loads determines the bullet length and in most cases if not all it will be a heavy bullet. But with AR 15s we are kind of handicapped because we also have to pick a powder that will cycle reliably.
So what became of this? I have poked around on the channel and have not found a conclusion video. Got to assume the anwser is buried somewhere not obvious.
The first thing I can think about that could help is to check how Remington manages its Power Level Ammo in Ultra Mag calibers. you may try to find a low performance powder (more grain to same velocities and try to fill as much as you can. You could also check managed recoil ammo from Remington to see what they do.
I've been having this same issue with the Rainier 180 grain wedge subsonic bullets. right now I'm testing with Reloder 7 since it has a higher case fill. hope you follow up on this some more because bullets like the Rainier are only $.10 per bullet
In a round about way this explains something I saw while testing a Hornady 110gr V-Max over 21.0grs of Lil'Gun in my 300 BLK AR Pistol. Velocity numbers were as follows in the 6 shot string. 2052fps, 2049fps, 2008fps, 2000fps, 1996fps and 1966fps. I didn't know what to think about the lower velocity from each consecutive shot. I don't think it would have been a powder position issue but still, this is very interesting.
I found it hard to get consistency with subsonics less than 170 grain..same problems in my 16" bolt gun. The velocity swings kill ya because it makes the shot fall low by as little as an inch or up to a few inches at 50 yds . I think the 170's are more accurate only because the case capacity is 2/3rd or more full. The subsonics are certainly alot of fun. Can target shoot all day and not make a racket. I have 100 and 110gr subs that work really well up to 50 yds at 970-1050 fps . Had inconsistent results with 130-150gr ... Thanks for all the vids Johnny !
The first time I went out with the chronograph I was totally confused. Mostly, I didn’t want to shoot the crono, so I paid no attention to the barrel position. The velocities were random and unbelievable, beyond if the chrono showed sonic when I got a crack; so it probably was not a crono problem. I’ve since went out with 20 rounds, of 9 grains (8.8 would be better), and that seems just about right for the 10.5” SBR. One horizontal shot was slow like a vertical shot, probably because I lowered the barrel and all the powder WENT TO THE FRONT OF THE CASE; yes that too. Vertical shots of this load exited the barrel no problem. My 147gr M80’s seem to seat at different depths with the lee dies, as if there ogives are different (four different but consistant OAL’s). I suspect that the heavier rounds take up more case volume. NO signs of over pressure whatsoever. Please keep your videos coming...Thanks.
I was hoping you saw this video. Was going to message you directly if you didn't show up soon. I posted a 2nd video on the subject earlier today. Thanks for bringing this to my attention!
I for one absolutely will not degrade in any way what you have just done, you realize in learning that there is so much more to learn is a sign of character we are watching a wise person on You Tube rather than some Bone head. Who knows, Maybe all your data is "flawed and Imperfect" however you have a conscious and will do the right thing. Responsibility and the "lack of" is a huge problem in this country. Johnny's reloading bench is Good guidance because of the person that makes the videos. Keep up the Good work. Thorsaxe777
i completely agree man! you said exactly how i feel about men/tradecraft/skills in this country these days. seems like hands on tradecraft is dissapearing with the new generations; afraid to get their hands dirty and learn by trying... they want a certification for everything first lol
i think it definitely worth exploring the cream of wheat or poly fill method to have more consistant fill. i have heard of some light loads on revolvers that shoot much different depending on how the charges lay in the case as well.
Hey, I found this video searching subsonic vertical stringing. I'm trying to make consistrnt precision shots at 200 yards with subs and find my poi is dropping while gun warms up. Cold I'm on zero. Warm I walk down 4 inches. I also get an occasion short strike Im shooting a overcased load, as soon as your video started I felt a pit in my stomach. You brought light to something so obvious. My subs are in a .308 case. I wonder if this exaberates what I am experiencing? I also wonder what would happen if you shook the bullets upside down to broaden the test results. Sometimes a guy might want to walk with a barrel pointed downward or ammo is just stored upside by random luck. Thanks for the video, this wakes me up a whole bunch. I love the wheat idea, something needs to be done.
1 other test on that would be powder away from primer - tip down vertical instead of tip up. Just wondering if it would change much. Good job with the videos lots of people can now avoid this issue. Thank you
To compact the small charge. Try filling the rest of the case with pillow fluff, that will compress the charge to the back of the case and will help keeping the velocity in check. It works similar to reloading a shotgun round. The wad in a shotgun case compresses the powder so it will still in place..
At the quigley match they specifically warn against filler and accurate 5477, guns have blown up. This stuff is position insensitive and does not require filler. 5744 is a double base, may be the problem.
Any plan to post your findings on 147gr subsonic with small magnum rifle primers? I'm curious. I'm thinking that using Xtreme Bullet 150gr plated bullets would be far more cost effective,
I an aware that this is four years old but its powder position is not so much primers. This was common way back in 70’s when loading 2.5 grains of bullseye with 158 rnl or 148 wadcutters in 38 special. Up was ok powder on primer , horizontal got different result and down when powder sat behind bullet. The last one when powder sat on bullet has on occasion detonated and blew up revolvers. Rare but did occur.
Pretty interesting results. I use the S&B primers in my pistol loads, usually get a deal when they're on sale at Cabela's ~$20/1000. Just loaded some 300's and haven't tried them yet. Hopefully all goes well! They seem a little weaker than CCI's and flatten with a little too much pressure when using my press to prime but I've yet to have a dud. Keep up the good vids 👍🏼
I am glad you don’t succumb to the clickbait temptation; that drives me crazy to waste my time watching a video only to find out it’s a scam. Thanks for the info.
What's in this video is all that I know so far. I am afraid we'll see the same issue with other powders. I have made the 147gr videos private for the time being. Once I get a better handle on what's happening I might bring them back with a warning.
Great video Johnny! Guess I'll stick to packing cases full of powder with a giant bullet :D Now I'm wondering about cases even over half full on a downward trajectory.
i got a load with a 125 balistic tip with around 17 grains of imr and i haven't heard or seen anything outta the ordanary but it also hadn't occured toe to go subsonic with them , i have a 200 grain bullet i set up for that . i wondering if maybe the charge is not enough
Flash over? That could be. If you have 9 grains of powder in that case, might be underfilled to a degree that the explosion from the primer might partially push the bullet out of the case before the powder gets a good burn. Depending on the various ways the powder could position itself could give the bullet some pretty different velocities. Yeah, need filler or powder that gives better volume in the case.
I was just about to load some 147gr with 1680 THEN saw this . Lots of 147gr data on line that should have disclaimers , even loading manuals. I usually load heavy bullets but have loaded subs using 115gr and Trailboss for the bolt gun,,rat fat quiet with my 9&45 cans.👍 I use S&B primers with no issues on all 300 blk but don't go near max loads and chrono.
I called S&B when there was the primer shortage a few years back and they told me that they should be used as magnum primers. I used a plastic bullet that fires by primer power only and chrono'd them, they were about the same as CCI magnum primers in pistols and a little faster than standard rifle primers. I havent found a way to judge how hot they burn yet, I tried a pyrometer in a empty case but it didnt work well, the leads kept getting messed up after a few shots and the pulse didnt last long enough to record on my fluke meter.
I'm sick of having to tell people that. I will be doing a video testing the 400, 450, and 41 against one another to put the issue to bed. CCI says to use magnum data, so I have always treated them like magnum primers. Doesn't stop 10 people per video commenting that I should use magnums! :)
I bought a .300 blackout upper and am having some issues. When I shoot 125 grain it works great but when I use 147 grain it gets stuck in the chamber. They are both .300 blackout. Any ideas what might be going on?
I am gonna try cci magnum small rifle and magnum pistol primers with my h110 150gn powder coated cb. I'm ~ 10gn with them and get the same type of issue about 1/4 to 1/3rd of the time over the crono. Will back them down a bit and test those . Waiting on my local stores next order . Haven't tried the 1680 though but I will . Thanks for the great things info and I'll post results if you don't beat me to the results .
I am very curious as well. Especially with the low volume powders like W296 and Lil' Gun. This issue needs A LOT of investigation before I will feel comfortable.
A SIMPLE SOLUTION. Like everything Blackout, you have to question your understanding and priorities. The target muzzle velocity for each bullet has little to do with it's weight (110, 125, 150), and is all about the size (length) of the bullet - that is room for powder in the case. An 110gn Vmax is small, gets up to 2350+ fps, but a 125gn Speer TNT is the same size and can be pushed to 2300fps easily. However with subsonics the need is to fill the case (the primary reason 220gn is used). If the priority is cheap subsonics, keep an eye on Widners - often have 155, 168, 180 Hornady/Sierra bullets for as low as 18c. I got 500 168 TipMatchKs for 18c each! I suggest 155gn at least, but to use 147/150gn - try to seat the bullet lower. Vmax and Nosler BTips seat to COL of 2.050! With an eye on the ogive, seat the 147gn bullet lower. Even easier, try 168gn seated low (provided you get 'em cheap).
I looked through my 300 blackout reloading data and the standard deviations of 110-115gr supersonic H110 loads tend to be much better (sometimes ridiculously low like 5fps) compared to subsonic AA1680 M80 147gr loads. My average standard deviation for my supersonic loads is 10.0fps vs 24.3fps for subsonic loads. This leads me to believe the supersonic loads don't suffer from this issue, or at least not nearly as badly.
Well...I guess that's the root of the question. They work and cycle the gun, but the case fill of powder might be a major issue that could be dangerous.
I have been trying to find a sub load for lighter bullets because we do a lot of shooting suppressed. I'm on the board of a wounded veterans charity and use them for hog hunts and range days. I'd like to find a good load, or a sponsor for ammo for our events... it's killing us because we are very limited in our budget but want to help the most guys we can.
Check out shootersproshop.com they sell nosler seconds and overruns. Every so often they will have 210 grain rdf blems on sale for .22- .23 each. Still a little pricy but they fly flat for subs and wreck coyotes.
It certainly can. That's why there are published minimums in your reloading manuals! Check the link I posted in another comment to the FortuneCookie45LC video on the subject. Light loads can be just as dangerous as heavy ones!
I had a similar experience with the factory subsonic sig ammo and thought it was my chronograph so I bought a new chronograph. My high velocity was almost 1200 fps and low was in the high 900's. I am concerned to say the least.
I have various factory ammo on hand. If I see this same issue with 200 and 220 bullet handloads I will definitely be checking the factory ammo for the same issue.
I know this is 8 years late, I have been using the cheapest single ply toilet paper I can find and I'll fold up a square and tamp it down on the powder to keep it in place
Because science! I love it. This is how shit gets done in the real world. Many a problem can get solved if more than one set of eyes takes a swing at a situation by duplicating a process to prove or disprove a theory. If a person is into, or thinking about reloading and isn't interested in taking into account ALL of the variables, maybe a safer hobby should be considered. I'd imagine that some people don't realize how much variation is introduced when all of the variables are not 100% identical. Primers burning into the void vs burning directly into the meat of the powder apparently, obviously, produce different results. If you don't hit a ball with a bat square and true, all sorts of weird shit happens that can't be predetermined on the fly. I like you to add some commercial ammo (110gr, 147gr, and 220gr) into your trials. I'd also ask that you do a case (powder) capacity check with the commercial ammo vs your reloads of the same bullet weights. I'm curious to see whether commercial ammo uses powder that fills the case more fully regardless of a given bullet weight. I won't stop reloading, but there's something to be said for the robot like [precision] of mass produced products where ALL variables are accounted for and minimized when possible, as opposed to the (haphazard) hobby "arts and crafts" style of inconsistent production some of engage in. I won't be winning any awards for best 300 blackout production. Inconsistent powder drops, bullet weights, case lengths, flash hole condition, (bured, off center, various diameter, based on manufacturer and QC) all off by 1 or more 10th of a grain or fractions of an inch/mm. These things introduce variation. We (most of us, including me) all do it because we're not fudging these inconsistencies into the realm of being dangerous. Or so we hope. I'd imagine thag only master bench rest reloaders account for EVERY variable, including, but let not limited to the diet that goes into the farts of a Chinese man 6000 miles away that goes into the air that eventually will travel across the range of the bench rest shooter. All that said, I've been eyeing the Lyman Gen 5/6 powder dispensers because I want to remove a variable in my process. Watching you drop powder reminds and reinforces that ever increasing need to be more consistent with my reloads. I'm not commenting negatively about your process, but I can't trust any pocess where a scale isn't the very last phase before actually dumping the powder into the case with the equipment I have. Your powder drop equipment is more expensive than my Lee contraption that I initially introduced into my word flow. It sits in a box sulking off in the corner. I've been using the tried and true dip, trickle, and measure with a scale method that had been giving me relatively low SD numbers, but that process is sloooow. I'm willing to pay for a quicker method that meets or exceeds my way. I suppose this is why gun manufacturers warn against, and will void the warrant if reloads are fired through their product and something catastrophic happens. This is also why I won't buy or sell reloads from anyone or to anyone. Good luck with your findings! I'm on the edge of my seat to see what you find out. You may not have a PhD in reloadology, reloadification, reloadesis, or reloadism, but what you're doing is as close to objective, fact based science as possible. Be safe and do good works.
Flashover? I wonder if this has to do with case fill? I'm terrible, and have watched maybe 2 minutes of this and have already drawn a conclusion, which isn't very smart on my behalf. I'll keep watching....
Any charge that fills less then 50% of the available, loaded case volume, is subject to this. Charge location sensitivity, varies depending on Powder type. Some having little to no sensitivity. To Dangerous over pressure. Example Black Powder, can NOT have ANY gap between the powder and the bullet !!!
I've been aware of the issue for a long time but I never dreamed it would be a problem with 300blk. 10 grains of Accurate 1680 is still a pretty substantial case fill. I am pretty sure it is well beyond 50%. A lot of the loads with heavier bullets are at or near 100%. More testing to come...
Loading the same right now. I am trying 9.5gr @ 2.14" OAL with heavy crimp. It'll be shot out of a 5.5" rattler. Hoping it cycles and is subsonic. I estimate it's got around 60% case fill which is barely enough to avoid issues.
Common sense. Its not a problem its how powder works. The only way to stop it is to keep the density the same. I'm sure some powders would be more sensitive to this than others.
That's a great explanation of the problem by FortuneCookie45LC. I've seen it before and just watched it again. It's exactly why I'm so freaked out by the situation. Here's a link for others: ua-cam.com/video/ZYleuf8xRgQ/v-deo.html
+Johnny's Reloading Bench Unfortunately, he was referencing a much longer case, thus it's really unclear/irrelevant in the realm of 300aac. I think now we need to dedicate a video solely to bullet seating depth- one that specifically pertains to remaining case volume between powder charge and bullet seating depth (across a wide range of bullet weights.
+Johnny's Reloading Bench From that baseline, artificial fillers could be the next process in eliminating the dangers of excess case volumes on the subsonics.
I use vectan AO, monobased, and pressure triggered. The slower powder gets and specially in bi-based the ignition gets termal triggered. So i keep with my AO, veryvery cheap and o so consistant veloceties, even with 20% filling. But i will never,never use hard bullets in a long 300AAC barrel. The H&N RN220DD solves that problem. Tests in progress sites.google.com/view/reload-cheap-subsonic/homepage
Thanks for making these videos. I learn something new each time i watch one.
@Johnny's Reloading Bench
Might want to check out the arfcom reloading 300 blackout master thread, page 75 at the very top. I found something that works and is SIERRA BOOK safe. Wonder what results you might get.
I have been having this issue with all sub and super 300blk. Ive been trying to do a 200gr load with A1680 and rem7 1/2 @1050fps for two weeks. Ive tried all the variables. kept getting spread of 80-190. The one thing i didnt think of was how the powder was sitting inside the casing. I am now going to look for the follow video. You are awesome for this video!!
Two points. What's with the S&B groups?... They are a wonky inverse of the other two. And the horizontal shots were only "leveled" for the first shot...the recoil for the follow-up shots may have settled the powder in different positions, perhaps causing a larger deviation.
I don't know! I found the S&B velocities bizarre as well. They were probably the coldest primers of the 3 and that might be the first clue. You are definitely correct on the horizontal shots. I would assume that the followup shots get the powder pushed to the front of the case when they stop in the chamber.
I have a very old reloading manual which had a 45/70 data with very light charges. A recommendation of 2 grains of polyester pillow ticking in the case between the charge and base of bullet held the powder and made the speed rather equal. The polyester burns up on ignition.
I've had the same issue. I don't have near as much deviation with the longer heavier projectiles. I'm assuming that it's because they sit so much further in the case. Great work as always.
When shooting 30/30 in a Thompson contender I used oatmeal to fill case with less than compressed loads. This increased accuracy since I was shooting silhouette out to 200 meters. This was in 1985 and everyone used the practice.
I am curios if there is a combination of seating the surplus M80 147gr bullets deeper and a higher (still subsonic) powder charge of AA1680 that might mitigate the issue. Heck, accuracy could improve if the velocity could be made more consistent. Case fillers sound sketchy to me, maybe because I have never used one. Looking forward to future videos.
Hey Shawn here in TN, I’ve been loading 300 BLK for about 8 years, I’ve found that if you pick a powder that touches the base of the bullet this problem goes away, I only shoot subs but I expect that the problem exists with supers also, but remember that heavy subs are the way to go, because the load density with subsonic loads determines the bullet length and in most cases if not all it will be a heavy bullet. But with AR 15s we are kind of handicapped because we also have to pick a powder that will cycle reliably.
Good luck finding a powder that will totally fill the case AND cycle the action on a typical AR without having awful powder burn..
So what became of this? I have poked around on the channel and have not found a conclusion video. Got to assume the anwser is buried somewhere not obvious.
The first thing I can think about that could help is to check how Remington manages its Power Level Ammo in Ultra Mag calibers. you may try to find a low performance powder (more grain to same velocities and try to fill as much as you can. You could also check managed recoil ammo from Remington to see what they do.
Like using clays in .45acp
I've been having this same issue with the Rainier 180 grain wedge subsonic bullets. right now I'm testing with Reloder 7 since it has a higher case fill. hope you follow up on this some more because bullets like the Rainier are only $.10 per bullet
In a round about way this explains something I saw while testing a Hornady 110gr V-Max over 21.0grs of Lil'Gun in my 300 BLK AR Pistol. Velocity numbers were as follows in the 6 shot string. 2052fps, 2049fps, 2008fps, 2000fps, 1996fps and 1966fps. I didn't know what to think about the lower velocity from each consecutive shot. I don't think it would have been a powder position issue but still, this is very interesting.
I found it hard to get consistency with subsonics less than 170 grain..same problems in my 16" bolt gun. The velocity swings kill ya because it makes the shot fall low by as little as an inch or up to a few inches at 50 yds . I think the 170's are more accurate only because the case capacity is 2/3rd or more full. The subsonics are certainly alot of fun. Can target shoot all day and not make a racket. I have 100 and 110gr subs that work really well up to 50 yds at 970-1050 fps . Had inconsistent results with 130-150gr ... Thanks for all the vids Johnny !
The first time I went out with the chronograph I was totally confused. Mostly, I didn’t want to shoot the crono, so I paid no attention to the barrel position. The velocities were random and unbelievable, beyond if the chrono showed sonic when I got a crack; so it probably was not a crono problem.
I’ve since went out with 20 rounds, of 9 grains (8.8 would be better), and that seems just about right for the 10.5” SBR. One horizontal shot was slow like a vertical shot, probably because I lowered the barrel and all the powder WENT TO THE FRONT OF THE CASE; yes that too. Vertical shots of this load exited the barrel no problem.
My 147gr M80’s seem to seat at different depths with the lee dies, as if there ogives are different (four different but consistant OAL’s).
I suspect that the heavier rounds take up more case volume.
NO signs of over pressure whatsoever. Please keep your videos coming...Thanks.
I was hoping you saw this video. Was going to message you directly if you didn't show up soon. I posted a 2nd video on the subject earlier today. Thanks for bringing this to my attention!
I for one absolutely will not degrade in any way what you have just done, you realize in learning that there is so much more to learn is a sign of character we are watching a wise person on You Tube rather than some Bone head. Who knows, Maybe all your data is "flawed and Imperfect" however you have a conscious and will do the right thing. Responsibility and the "lack of" is a huge problem in this country. Johnny's reloading bench is Good guidance because of the person that makes the videos. Keep up the Good work. Thorsaxe777
i completely agree man! you said exactly how i feel about men/tradecraft/skills in this country these days.
seems like hands on tradecraft is dissapearing with the new generations; afraid to get their hands dirty and learn by trying... they want a certification for everything first lol
i think it definitely worth exploring the cream of wheat or poly fill method to have more consistant fill. i have heard of some light loads on revolvers that shoot much different depending on how the charges lay in the case as well.
Hey, I found this video searching subsonic vertical stringing.
I'm trying to make consistrnt precision shots at 200 yards with subs and find my poi is dropping while gun warms up. Cold I'm on zero. Warm I walk down 4 inches.
I also get an occasion short strike
Im shooting a overcased load, as soon as your video started I felt a pit in my stomach. You brought light to something so obvious. My subs are in a .308 case. I wonder if this exaberates what I am experiencing?
I also wonder what would happen if you shook the bullets upside down to broaden the test results. Sometimes a guy might want to walk with a barrel pointed downward or ammo is just stored upside by random luck.
Thanks for the video, this wakes me up a whole bunch. I love the wheat idea, something needs to be done.
What the fuck are you taking about??
Under loading a case can cause a rapid burn across the case and can cause a spike in chamber pressure.
1 other test on that would be powder away from primer - tip down vertical instead of tip up. Just wondering if it would change much. Good job with the videos lots of people can now avoid this issue. Thank you
To compact the small charge. Try filling the rest of the case with pillow fluff, that will compress the charge to the back of the case and will help keeping the velocity in check. It works similar to reloading a shotgun round. The wad in a shotgun case compresses the powder so it will still in place..
Yup. Polyfill and cream of wheat are probably in my future.
At the quigley match they specifically warn against filler and accurate 5477, guns have blown up. This stuff is position insensitive and does not require filler. 5744 is a double base, may be the problem.
Any plan to post your findings on 147gr subsonic with small magnum rifle primers? I'm curious. I'm thinking that using Xtreme Bullet 150gr plated bullets would be far more cost effective,
I have pretty much given up on the 147gr subsonic testing. I might revisit it soon.
Have you heard of PuffLon? Might be what you're looking for.
Sorry for asking a question that's probably answered in the comment somewhere but how does your AR cycle these rounds?
I an aware that this is four years old but its powder position is not so much primers. This was common way back in 70’s when loading 2.5 grains of bullseye with 158 rnl or 148 wadcutters in 38 special. Up was ok powder on primer , horizontal got different result and down when powder sat behind bullet. The last one when powder sat on bullet has on occasion detonated and blew up revolvers. Rare but did occur.
Pretty interesting results. I use the S&B primers in my pistol loads, usually get a deal when they're on sale at Cabela's ~$20/1000. Just loaded some 300's and haven't tried them yet. Hopefully all goes well! They seem a little weaker than CCI's and flatten with a little too much pressure when using my press to prime but I've yet to have a dud. Keep up the good vids 👍🏼
I picked up some of the S&B pistol primers to test as well. I've heard a lot of good things about them. You can't beat the price!
I am glad you don’t succumb to the clickbait temptation; that drives me crazy to waste my time watching a video only to find out it’s a scam. Thanks for the info.
Are there problems with win 296 powders too? I would leave the old video up. Maybe put a warning in the title
What's in this video is all that I know so far. I am afraid we'll see the same issue with other powders. I have made the 147gr videos private for the time being. Once I get a better handle on what's happening I might bring them back with a warning.
Great video Johnny! Guess I'll stick to packing cases full of powder with a giant bullet :D Now I'm wondering about cases even over half full on a downward trajectory.
Do the 110 grain horn add spire point varmint bullets. I'm having a hard time getting the things to group
i got a load with a 125 balistic tip with around 17 grains of imr and i haven't heard or seen anything outta the ordanary but it also hadn't occured toe to go subsonic with them , i have a 200 grain bullet i set up for that . i wondering if maybe the charge is not enough
Flash over? That could be. If you have 9 grains of powder in that case, might be underfilled to a degree that the explosion from the primer might partially push the bullet out of the case before the powder gets a good burn. Depending on the various ways the powder could position itself could give the bullet some pretty different velocities. Yeah, need filler or powder that gives better volume in the case.
I was just about to load some 147gr with 1680 THEN saw this . Lots of 147gr data on line that should have disclaimers , even loading manuals. I usually load heavy bullets but have loaded subs using 115gr and Trailboss for the bolt gun,,rat fat quiet with my 9&45 cans.👍 I use S&B primers with no issues on all 300 blk but don't go near max loads and chrono.
the s&b primers are magnum primers , I found that out a while ago when I was going over fps with my 9mm and 40 loads....way over book values for fps.
I have some of their pistol primers on hand as well, so I'll be testing that. We'll see if my experience matches yours!
I called S&B when there was the primer shortage a few years back and they told me that they should be used as magnum primers. I used a plastic bullet that fires by primer power only and chrono'd them, they were about the same as CCI magnum primers in pistols and a little faster than standard rifle primers. I havent found a way to judge how hot they burn yet, I tried a pyrometer in a empty case but it didnt work well, the leads kept getting messed up after a few shots and the pulse didnt last long enough to record on my fluke meter.
The cci 41 is a magnum primer!
I'm sick of having to tell people that. I will be doing a video testing the 400, 450, and 41 against one another to put the issue to bed. CCI says to use magnum data, so I have always treated them like magnum primers. Doesn't stop 10 people per video commenting that I should use magnums! :)
Just curious but when you load up 10 for testing purposes, why not eliminate a potential variable by weighing each charge?
I bought a .300 blackout upper and am having some issues. When I shoot 125 grain it works great but when I use 147 grain it gets stuck in the chamber. They are both .300 blackout. Any ideas what might be going on?
I am gonna try cci magnum small rifle and magnum pistol primers with my h110 150gn powder coated cb. I'm ~ 10gn with them and get the same type of issue about 1/4 to 1/3rd of the time over the crono. Will back them down a bit and test those . Waiting on my local stores next order . Haven't tried the 1680 though but I will .
Thanks for the great things info and I'll post results if you don't beat me to the results .
Try Trail boss powder 6.8 to compressed charge 8 max for 1050 fps...o room to roam as it is close to or slightly compressed .
I am curious if this is only the case with the lighter weight bullets or if this same occurrence will happen with our 180-220gr bullets as well?
I am very curious as well. Especially with the low volume powders like W296 and Lil' Gun. This issue needs A LOT of investigation before I will feel comfortable.
would any ammo do the same it would be worth trying some out
A SIMPLE SOLUTION. Like everything Blackout, you have to question your understanding and priorities. The target muzzle velocity for each bullet has little to do with it's weight (110, 125, 150), and is all about the size (length) of the bullet - that is room for powder in the case. An 110gn Vmax is small, gets up to 2350+ fps, but a 125gn Speer TNT is the same size and can be pushed to 2300fps easily.
However with subsonics the need is to fill the case (the primary reason 220gn is used). If the priority is cheap subsonics, keep an eye on Widners - often have 155, 168, 180 Hornady/Sierra bullets for as low as 18c. I got 500 168 TipMatchKs for 18c each!
I suggest 155gn at least, but to use 147/150gn - try to seat the bullet lower. Vmax and Nosler BTips seat to COL of 2.050! With an eye on the ogive, seat the 147gn bullet lower. Even easier, try 168gn seated low (provided you get 'em cheap).
I looked through my 300 blackout reloading data and the standard deviations of 110-115gr supersonic H110 loads tend to be much better (sometimes ridiculously low like 5fps) compared to subsonic AA1680 M80 147gr loads. My average standard deviation for my supersonic loads is 10.0fps vs 24.3fps for subsonic loads. This leads me to believe the supersonic loads don't suffer from this issue, or at least not nearly as badly.
Thanks for sharing your data! I'll have more testing up next weekend, I hope.
i have a question .... isn't a 147 grain bullet to lite for subsonic load ?
Well...I guess that's the root of the question. They work and cycle the gun, but the case fill of powder might be a major issue that could be dangerous.
Thats why you need trailboss for lightweight subs, its all about case fill
I Just grabbed my log book and here are the velocities I recorded: 1209, 970, 963, 1039, & 970 again that is with factory sig subsonic ammo.
I have been trying to find a sub load for lighter bullets because we do a lot of shooting suppressed. I'm on the board of a wounded veterans charity and use them for hog hunts and range days. I'd like to find a good load, or a sponsor for ammo for our events... it's killing us because we are very limited in our budget but want to help the most guys we can.
Check out shootersproshop.com they sell nosler seconds and overruns. Every so often they will have 210 grain rdf blems on sale for .22- .23 each. Still a little pricy but they fly flat for subs and wreck coyotes.
Wow. does the same thing happens with other calibers, like 308?
It certainly can. That's why there are published minimums in your reloading manuals! Check the link I posted in another comment to the FortuneCookie45LC video on the subject. Light loads can be just as dangerous as heavy ones!
Thanks man!
the bullet base is shadowing the load. stick to high density loads
I had a similar experience with the factory subsonic sig ammo and thought it was my chronograph so I bought a new chronograph. My high velocity was almost 1200 fps and low was in the high 900's. I am concerned to say the least.
I have various factory ammo on hand. If I see this same issue with 200 and 220 bullet handloads I will definitely be checking the factory ammo for the same issue.
+Johnny's Reloading Bench
I wonder if this is tge problem with Remington subs.
I've got some on hand. Once I characterize the issue a little better it might be worth testing.
+Johnny's Reloading Bench I'm going to try to get out this week and do some testing also. I don't think it matters but I'm using a bolt gun FYI
That would be awesome! I would encourage anyone who has a chronograph to help characterize the issue and see how widespread it is. Thanks!
I know this is 8 years late, I have been using the cheapest single ply toilet paper I can find and I'll fold up a square and tamp it down on the powder to keep it in place
Because science! I love it. This is how shit gets done in the real world. Many a problem can get solved if more than one set of eyes takes a swing at a situation by duplicating a process to prove or disprove a theory.
If a person is into, or thinking about reloading and isn't interested in taking into account ALL of the variables, maybe a safer hobby should be considered.
I'd imagine that some people don't realize how much variation is introduced when all of the variables are not 100% identical.
Primers burning into the void vs burning directly into the meat of the powder apparently, obviously, produce different results.
If you don't hit a ball with a bat square and true, all sorts of weird shit happens that can't be predetermined on the fly.
I like you to add some commercial ammo (110gr, 147gr, and 220gr) into your trials. I'd also ask that you do a case (powder) capacity check with the commercial ammo vs your reloads of the same bullet weights. I'm curious to see whether commercial ammo uses powder that fills the case more fully regardless of a given bullet weight.
I won't stop reloading, but there's something to be said for the robot like [precision] of mass produced products where ALL variables are accounted for and minimized when possible, as opposed to the (haphazard) hobby "arts and crafts" style of inconsistent production some of engage in. I won't be winning any awards for best 300 blackout production.
Inconsistent powder drops, bullet weights, case lengths, flash hole condition, (bured, off center, various diameter, based on manufacturer and QC) all off by 1 or more 10th of a grain or fractions of an inch/mm. These things introduce variation.
We (most of us, including me) all do it because we're not fudging these inconsistencies into the realm of being dangerous. Or so we hope. I'd imagine thag only master bench rest reloaders account for EVERY variable, including, but let not limited to the diet that goes into the farts of a Chinese man 6000 miles away that goes into the air that eventually will travel across the range of the bench rest shooter.
All that said, I've been eyeing the Lyman Gen 5/6 powder dispensers because I want to remove a variable in my process. Watching you drop powder reminds and reinforces that ever increasing need to be more consistent with my reloads.
I'm not commenting negatively about your process, but I can't trust any pocess where a scale isn't the very last phase before actually dumping the powder into the case with the equipment I have. Your powder drop equipment is more expensive than my Lee contraption that I initially introduced into my word flow. It sits in a box sulking off in the corner.
I've been using the tried and true dip, trickle, and measure with a scale method that had been giving me relatively low SD numbers, but that process is sloooow. I'm willing to pay for a quicker method that meets or exceeds my way.
I suppose this is why gun manufacturers warn against, and will void the warrant if reloads are fired through their product and something catastrophic happens.
This is also why I won't buy or sell reloads from anyone or to anyone.
Good luck with your findings! I'm on the edge of my seat to see what you find out.
You may not have a PhD in reloadology, reloadification, reloadesis, or reloadism, but what you're doing is as close to objective, fact based science as possible.
Be safe and do good works.
Flashover? I wonder if this has to do with case fill? I'm terrible, and have watched maybe 2 minutes of this and have already drawn a conclusion, which isn't very smart on my behalf. I'll keep watching....
I just opened a box of these and the projectile is not seated all the way
Try OAL closer to SAMMI minimum. I beleive you were at 2.1. If you get closer to 1.78, that will reduce the empty space in the case.
MAYBE THIS IS WHY YOU WERE GETTING THOSE VELOCITY OUTLIERS ON YOUR CHARTS. MAYBE WHEN SWTICHING UPPERS THE POWDER SETTLED TOWARD THE PRIMER.
Any charge that fills less then 50% of the available, loaded case volume, is subject to this. Charge location sensitivity, varies depending on Powder type. Some having little to no sensitivity. To Dangerous over pressure. Example Black Powder, can NOT have ANY gap between the powder and the bullet !!!
I've been aware of the issue for a long time but I never dreamed it would be a problem with 300blk. 10 grains of Accurate 1680 is still a pretty substantial case fill. I am pretty sure it is well beyond 50%. A lot of the loads with heavier bullets are at or near 100%. More testing to come...
+Johnny's Reloading Bench
above 80% case fill is ideal. I really don't like to go below that
I tried some subsonic 147gr and for me VV n120 seems to work great, no velocity problems, if it can help someone
Loading the same right now. I am trying 9.5gr @ 2.14" OAL with heavy crimp. It'll be shot out of a 5.5" rattler. Hoping it cycles and is subsonic. I estimate it's got around 60% case fill which is barely enough to avoid issues.
I consider the 147 grain to be supersonic and load accordingly with IMR4227. Not sure why you are trying to run this as a sub !!!
Common sense. Its not a problem its how powder works. The only way to stop it is to keep the density the same. I'm sure some powders would be more sensitive to this than others.
ROFLAO, wheat!
I would also highly encourage you to watch the UA-cam video "The danger of reduced loads in rifles".
That's a great explanation of the problem by FortuneCookie45LC. I've seen it before and just watched it again. It's exactly why I'm so freaked out by the situation. Here's a link for others: ua-cam.com/video/ZYleuf8xRgQ/v-deo.html
+Johnny's Reloading Bench Unfortunately, he was referencing a much longer case, thus it's really unclear/irrelevant in the realm of 300aac. I think now we need to dedicate a video solely to bullet seating depth- one that specifically pertains to remaining case volume between powder charge and bullet seating depth (across a wide range of bullet weights.
+Johnny's Reloading Bench From that baseline, artificial fillers could be the next process in eliminating the dangers of excess case volumes on the subsonics.
Poly fill makes a good case filler
I use vectan AO, monobased, and pressure triggered. The slower powder gets and specially in bi-based the ignition gets termal
triggered. So i keep with my AO, veryvery cheap and o so consistant veloceties, even with 20% filling. But i will never,never use hard bullets in a long 300AAC barrel. The H&N RN220DD solves that problem. Tests in progress
sites.google.com/view/reload-cheap-subsonic/homepage
Wow...
Good thing nobody would ever shoot like this, with all the shaking and slowly lowering it so this is a non issue
Trail boss for light subs is the fix
Light loads you need a filler so you dont have this spread