Ep 147 I Refuse to Fail at This! Fischer Panda Generator
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- Опубліковано 25 тра 2023
- Marine generators live in a harsh environment. Not only that, ours is almost 30 years old. And keeping it running has been a constant challenge. But over the years I've learned so much about diagnosing engine and electrical problems that I knew that with some perseverance, we could probably bring this one back from the dead.
sailing yacht talisman, sailing, sailing youtube, boating, top sailing, oyster yachts, oyster sailboats, oyster 485, offshore, bluewater, blue water, sailing vlog, sailing vblog, sailing channels, sailing videos, cruising, monohull, generator repair
If you put your mind to to it, you could write a users diagnostic repair manual for that engine, and it might sell! There are obviously a bunch of issues that cause breakdowns, and when multiple issues occur at the same time, they can lead to scratched heads. There ought to be a manual to diagnose these issues, and you could write it! Well done Kevin! You stuck with it and fixed it! Congrats!
Thanks for the kind words Jim. There is an exhaustive Fischer Panda manual, complete with a full two or three pages of troubleshooting tips. These tend to revolve around installation and commissioning issues. But what isn't addressed there is how the failure occurs, along with the subtle hints the unit will give off as things go bad. I suspect part of this is a reluctance to admit that the safety features built into the unit can and will lead to lack of reliability. In any event, I doubt I'll be writing any manuals for our generator, given its age. But what I do do is answer questions and do remote tech support when asked to do so. It's a rare week when someone doesn't contact me offline about some issue or another, often about things unrelated to generators. It's an enjoyable side hobby that keeps my mind in the game.
That Genset snatched the loss right out of the mouth of victory, BOAT LIFE I think!
Yep. It sucked to see that leak. New pump for this season cured the issue though.
@SailingTalisman Kevin, you and Wendy are saving the day, on a 10 cruise to celebrate my 65th, Lynn being cancer free for 10 years, and our 38th anniversary, all in MRch. Yesterday my Lynn fell ill, caught Covid, and I am binging on sailing Talisman, and internet shopping for my Oyster retirement boat!! so thanks, and i promise, when i retire, i'll donate a free week of on-site seasonal grunt work to help get a great boat ready, unless i have one myself! And if I do, you may want to put me on total ignore, due to too many questions! Be well. Dan in Naples
@@footnfan I suppose you could do worse than binge watching SYT episodes. Great to hear about Lynn's cancer, not so good to hear about the covid. But I expect all will be well. Great to have you with us.
Until the last 10 seconds of the video, it was a really positive repair sequence... and then boom! Keep at it! It's amazing that little generator puts out what it does!
Yep. Just the way things go on a boat. But as I've said elsewhere in this thread, I'm pretty sure the pump seals and bearing alignment were defective from the factory (Johnson Pumps in Sweden). This sucks because it's an expensive pump, but I did order a new one once we got back to the States, and that one will be installed as a first priority in the fall.
@@SailingTalisman You are a master at the disaster. Wait that doesn't sound right... You are a master at solving the disasters! There, that's right. You're always on top of the game at keeping Talisman in fine working order. Nice going even and Wendy! I know it's a team thing, even though Kevin does more of the on camera work. ;-)
Great episode! I am in the marine service business. Unfortunately the Fischer Panda units do not have a good reliability reputation. The big selling 'feature' was the size to power ratio at the time they were offered.
Yes. I would agree. I am somewhat hopeful that now that they're supplying the US military as a contractor, that they can get to better reliability. But the US EPA is also riding just about every manufacturer to meet near impossible emission standards, and that leads to excessively complex control boards and various sensors that are prone to failure. Our issue is that there isn't another product out there that will fit in the space. I have 24" of width to work with, and not much more than the 18" of depth we presently have. I'm okay on height, but nothing from any of the major manufacturers will fit.
Well done Kevin in persisting with this one - now you are the expert.😉👍
Thanks Norman. Always great to hear from you.
Great diagnosis well done for tracing and fixings multiple issues
Thanks Mike. It was a bear, but we have gen power as I write. Worth the effort in the end.
Watching your dogged pursuits always makes me feel better about mine. Sort of perverse. Thanks for taking the trouble to share your trouble.
You know, it's not the first time I've heard that. Thanks as always for being with us.
Try a Next Gen generator it will fit in the space and save you thousands of dollars!! Trust me I spent thousands on my panda and swapped it out for a Next Gen and have been running it for 5 years with no problems. All relays on the unit can be purchased from any automotive store.
Hi Steve. Thanks for the update. I know the Fischer Panda line is universally hated by techs and users alike. And the situation seems to be a design that's overly complicated and prone to failure on the electrical side, both in the running of the Kubota diesel engine and also power production (stator). But that said, so much failure starts with poor installation, especially when it comes to using non-marine grade electrical connectors and other electronic parts. So I went and looked at Next Gen, and the issue I see is that it's American and outputs 60Hz power. They offer 120/240VAC, which is fine, but we need 50Hz Euro power aboard. Another subscriber suggested WhisperPower, which I'm looking at seriously. According to the company bio, the owner was instrumental in launching Victron Power in the late 80's, Mastervolt in the mid 90's, and WhisperPower as part of Mastervolt, soon to be spun off as a stand-alone company in 1998. We have a mix of Victron and Mastervolt aboard Talisman, and both are exceptional in terms of function and reliability. Their generators are being marketed as OEM systems for hybrid van and marine EV applications where high torque electric motors are run off constant running fuel efficient diesel generators and lithium batteries. In my view, this is the future of EV, given that I see no scenario where batteries can be charged in the time it takes to fill up your tank with fuel.
that last leak had to be a gut punch. good luck! thanks for the video
Yep. Luckily Wesley and his guys at Multiserve Antigua rebuilt it (for the 3rd time) under his warranty promise. I do think the pump has a manufacturing/machining defect, so I'll order another in the off season.
The problem is related to lack of maintenance...The heat-exchanger needs cleaning, also the pump needs new seals, or if not, replaced on time. I'm amazed about the lack of knowledge from your side, you can easily get stranded with that old boat and not maintained correct.
Yes, I'm sorry to disappoint. Others would do better.
Thats a little harsh in my opinion sir. They bought a used vessel.
That was quite the battle to figure out Kevin, and then to have the water pump leak again just when you thought you had it finally set. "I'll show you who's boss"😅
Isn't that the truth! But at least with the pump you know what's failed. The guys at Multiserve (who rebuilt it twice already), had it out in 3 hours, delivered to the machinist to build up the shaft to factory specs, and had it reinstalled the following morning. I can't say enough good things about those guys. And this is in the islands, where nothing gets done fast. I'm convinced the problems started at the Johnson Pumps factory, and something's out of alignment internally. Industrial pumps don't usually fail this way.
Great episode. We are in contract to purchase a Jeanneau that happens to have a FP genset as well and now my eyes are starting to roll thinking about the future genset issues I have to look forward to. Ha. Brent from Catamaran IMPI did an entire UA-cam video on removing the engine driven water pump from his genset and replaced it with an externally mounted A/C March mag drive pump because of similar problems. It could be helpful considering the water pump broke again.
Now that I know how the FP works (from the technical/mechanical side), I'm more comfortable having it there. So many of the problems were not really FP problems. I mean, if the small inline fuel pump between the fuel tank and the gen dies, who's fault is that? Similarly, if you keep getting huge clumps of seaweed in the raw water strainers, or carbon buildup in the exhaust, yes it's the generator going down, but really just maintenance. If you have problems, get in touch. As long as it isn't in the electrical power generation side, which it usually isn't, there aren't that many places where things go wrong. BTW, the raw water pump aboard Talisman was bad from the factory I've come to believe. The shaft was never aligned properly, so seals failed one after the other. Not typical at all. I have a new pump already in the pile to ship down come fall.
I understand your frustration Kevin. I was a purchasing professional for two Fortune 50 companies. I purchased complex systems OEM ($200,000+) with many components and subsystems from third party vendors. We, corporate purchasing management and the various purchasing entities refused to accept third party warranty issues. Purchasing philosophy was the OEM's quality control dept was responsible for ALL components and their function per the purchase order.
It sounds like you've been down the path a few times. For us, it's more that the unit is so far out of warranty (it's 30 years old!). But that said, Fischer Panda would cover warranty on the parts they chose to use from third party vendors inside the warranty period I'm sure. And no company these days is 100% vertically integrated. To their credit, Mike Kruger and the service team at Fischer Panda in Ft Lauderdale, Florida have been rock stars in offering advice and replacement parts.
Aren't small engines an absolute bugger! You have my sympathy Kevin. It seems way too complicated for a simple genset, too many electronic components that will always let you down. But having said that...that water leak?
Yeah, I know. The (Multiserve) guys tell me the shaft was loose in the bearings after they froze up on a previous failure. I'd add that the original bearings were not of the sealed variety, so water gushing in caused them to fail. The new versions are sealed, so that might help. Anyway, the machinist welded up the shaft all the way around, then turned it on a lathe to bring it back to factory spec. I honestly think this particular pump was poorly manufactured and I'll order a new one during the off season.
They make excellent small boat moorings but other than that they will break your heart and the bank
Easy to say, but there isn't another brand that fits in the location, other than Mastervolt/Whisper Quiet, and that uses the same Kubota Z-482 diesel engine as the Fischer Panda. Given that ours is now working and just passed a lube oil analysis test with flying colors, I think I'll try to eke out another couple seasons. I know so much about how that thing works that I could probably qualify as a FP tech. Anyway, I'll use it till it quits for good.
LOL! 5 weeks later....here we go again. How do you keep from loosing it? Persistence, I'm impressed Kevin!
Thanks Greg. Luckily we've got plenty of time.
Okay, I'm about to give up on my FP 4200. I'll replace the starter and if it doesn't work, I'll move to solar and inverter.
Let me know what happens when you do. If the gen engine isn’t starting right away, like after 10 or 15 secs after turning it over, shut off the raw water sea cock. Be ready to open it up if the engine catches, but failing to do so (absent exhaust gasses to push water through) can lead water to back up into the exhaust manifold and then into the cylinders through open exhaust valves, thus hydrolocking the engine. Doing so can bend valve push rods and even bend connecting rods. This applies to the main engine too. Like I say, report back. My email in the “About” tab at SYT landing/home page.
That's a lot going on with all the different systems aboard a cruising mono hull. It looks like a lot less cluster on a lightweight performance catamaran but may be it's just spread out more. Both boats need the same gear pretty much. Anyways, I'm going to order the plans on the new boat that Cap'n Plukkie is building. This will be my first cruising boat and I have a lot to learn as I haven't cruised since 1985 when I was aboard TeVega that is now called DEVA which is a 165 ft. long gaff rigged schooner and 164 ft. tall. I believe it was 27 ft. wide. We navigated the old school way and had no electronic anything. I'm highly considering getting the new Tim Mumby design but might get the older design called a Cyber 48 which is a lightweight aluminum performance cruising sailing catamaran.
Sounds great Robert. Space is always the problem, especially on monohulls. And Oyster created probably the first boat of its size designed from scratch to have all the comforts of a modern home. Thus, a hugely complex system of electrical wiring and plumbing. And generally (this is true for all brands), you start to lose any option for a generator at around 45' (again, talking monohulls). Cats have way more space, but are also much more sensitive to how much weight they carry.
@@SailingTalisman Yes, the weight is a killer on cats. I'm going to go for a fully electric boat just like Plukkie which will mean that I'll have to have a lot of batteries and solar panels. The marine grade aluminum material that the designer Tim Mumby uses to build his lightweight catamarans is the best material to build a boat with in my opinion. I also like carbon fiber but that's out of my budget and I'm not sure if a bear carbon fiber hull would be lighter weight than a bear aluminum hull. Anyways, I'm going to keep it lightweight. I really like your Oyster. It's one of the best mono hulls you can get.
I can feel the pain, when you are going to replace this one try looking at Onan or Kohler generators. They are both of much higher build quality than Pandas.
Indeed. They just won't fit. I've mocked them up to see. The Onan is close, but you wouldn't be able to get the cover off for oil changes.
We have a panda generator as well. Was working fine and now won’t start. Panel displays “start attempt failed”
Manually hold the stop solenoid open (rotate the butterfly valve that the solenoid is connected to, thus pulling the actuator rod out from the solenoid). Hold it open and try to start the engine. If you're doing a lot of cranking without the engine kicking over, make sure to close the raw water seacock. Not doing so can allow water to backflow into the exhaust and hydrolock the engine, thus destroying it with a loud bang. Once the engine starts, open the seacock again. If the engine starts, but then dies when you stop holding the butterfly valve open, then the start relay (small black box behind some of the rubber hosing) is bad, or the solenoid itself is bad (not as likely). If this doesn't work, make sure the engine is getting fuel. Check Racor filter and make sure fuel is all the way to the top of the bowl. Next, back off the bleed screw at the high pressure fuel pump and see if fuel bubbles out as you attempt to start. If these actions don't solve the problem, contact me off-list at the email shown in the "about" tab on our UA-cam landing page (Sailing Yacht Talisman). BTW, these are issues with the Kubota engine that drives the Fischer Panda stator, so not strictly FP problems per se.
On older FP units, there are two fuses (one red, one blue) under a clear plastic cover lower front of engine. One is a starter fuse, and if the engine is cranking this one is good. The other is an engine start fuse. Make sure that one is not blown. If you have a generator isolator, turn it off first, otherwise you are likely to blow these fuses trying to check them. I eventually replaced both with blade fuses in wired holders given that the old red and blue fuses are no longer produced and you can't even find a pic of them online. Consult the wiring diagram in the FP manual to get amp ratings.
Wow!! Thank you so much for replying!!! Will try this out
What company did you use in St Lucia and would you recommend them? I have a low voltage issue on my FP and I am having trouble finding someone to fix it in the area.
Sorry for the late response. Try Roger (Rodney Bay) at +1 (758) 284-6050
You are really persistent Kevin, many would have given up before. Fischer Panda generator have a good reputation, what year is your unit? As always great posting!
Hi Albert. That's the issue. It's a 30yo generator, so ancient. But diesel engines and other industrial equipment can function for decades as long as they don't catastrophically fail. Working now, so I'll take that as a win.
Look at the reviews on line for panda, 😢
Kevin your market is not about your probs man. It's your travels. No one wants doom and gloom. I want you to succeed but
Thanks Earl. We have some good sailing episodes coming up. And the funny thing is, there's a huge demand for these types of maintenance videos. Look through our library of episodes. We're up to 147 now, and if you check the views you'll see a major difference between travel and mechanical. It doesn't help that UA-cam always has their thumb on the scale, but that's how it is. However, to your point, stick around and we'll get you what you're looking for.
@@SailingTalisman I've been with you forever. As a loyal subscriber. Thanks for the acknowledgement. As a 70 yr old former sailor & being on you tube for the last 8 to 9 years I think I no that viewers, whilst they like the maintanence aspect. They don't like a dozen channels showing the same.
So I've watched you and your delightful wife for every ep. For many years. Tell me why you asked me to look through your library. A bit rude I think.
@@earlashton1342 Sorry Earl. Not sure how literally to take your bit about being rude. Perhaps a joke, but I suppose I'll just go with the literal path. We're so happy to have you as a viewer, and perhaps the UA-cam jargon was getting in the way. When you are watching a video on UA-cam (minimized half-screen), if you click the highlighted Sailing Talisman text below/left of the screen, it will take you to our channel home page. When that home page (sometimes called the "landing page") loads, you'll see various tabs near the top, and the second one over says "Videos". On that page you will see our entire history of videos, in chronological order. This is called the "Catalog" or "Library". For each episode, total views are listed nearby. What I was saying was that by the numbers, we see less views for travel than we do for maintenance. Roughly, we do "Sailing", "Maintenance", and "Location/Travel", rotating through these three topics. Note that our version of maintenance is not a "how-to", but instead a kind of documentation of the physical and emotional timeline for a repair. In this, we may have accidentally hit on something not done as often by the other bloggers (or so commenters tell us). If you want how-to, you go elsewhere. But if you want a day-in-the-life-of-the-cruiser, you come to us. Am I on track with this reply?
So great as usual. -- QUESTION --- One thing I can never understand is why it seems so much more complicated and difficult to maintain a larger sailboat compared to say a 35 foot sailboat - both can have the same systems, toilet, engine, battery, fuel tank, water tank, auto pilot etc. I could understand that a bigger sailboat has longer wires and longer plumping pipes and longer fuel pipes. But why does it seem like it actually has much more "stuff" to fix and maintain. Don't get it. If only your 485 was as "simple" as a 35 Contessa or Alberg to maintain. I think I could handle those ones. But I want a larger one like yours for comfort and stability and safety. The truth, I fear, is you have to be a man to manage your sailboat. Yeah, not PC to say it, but I have yet to see a woman do it by herself and I know I could not do so. Guys just think differently and handle it better and I don't care who disagrees because it is so true. Maybe we should protest for women friendly large sailboat where someone else does the maintenance? :)
Hi Coleen. I decided to take a night to thing about this one. First, at 35' you're unlikely to get a generator, so you have to forego some comforts. Solar alone won't do it, especially if you have a fridge and freezer. But more to your point, we have several things going on. First and foremost, we chose to buy a near 30yo boat at the time, and it's actually/or very nearly, 30 years old now (late 1994). For you, if you were a successful professional and less price sensitive, double the purchase price from $210K (now about $350K) to $450-500K, and get something newer, ideally 2010 or newer. This will get you the same number of systems we have, but newer and less likely to give you issues. Budget 10% of the purchase price annually to maintenance, and outsource it to the men in the yard. Be unyielding on them for quality of work, and don't pay until you're satisfied. Moving back to me, I have a theory that when you buy a high end boat like an Oyster or Hallberg Rassy, you're really buying the hull, joinery, and spars. Beyond that, it's all equipment from third parties (spars are third party too, but rarely replaced). These are available if not already included on other brands, and easily replaced if need be, given the right amount of $. For us, three decade old refrigeration and such is just outdated technology, and was priced into the sale. Oysters are almost unique in the boat world as supporting upgraded systems (ie, you get back what you put in, to a degree, when you sell). Note too that things like LifePo4 lithium batteries and low voltage air conditioning are really frivolous options in truth, and if we were truly low on funds we'd just forego things like that. Finally, and this is the big one. We live on the boat nearly full time (8 months out of the year), and put the whip to Talisman on the water, which she likes. This leads to accelerated wear and stuff breaking. It's important to make sure you don't end up boat-poor, and not having the funds to actually sail. We see so many project boats that just sit in the yard while some poor dude spends years trying to get a boat seaworthy. The point is to sail, not have the perfect be the enemy of the good. As for men being better at these things, it's true that they are. I can envision and design a backhoe in my mind's eye, which is a talent most women have no idea exists. It's why men are so much more visually stimulated. And we kind of get edgy if we don't have physical jobs to do and things to fix. So that was Wendy's solution, and perhaps it could be yours too. Find a sucker like me to do all the heavy work while you sail. Now that I think about it, Wendy does 2/3 of the sailing and 100% of anchoring, 100% of laundry/cooking (she enjoys cooking), while I do 100% of the mechanical work, planning, purchasing of parts, 1/3 of the sailing, and 100% of docking, 60% of eating. Hope all is well in your world. Save and spend for a newer boat, and be prepared to replace toilet parts a lot.
Such wise words, had to read it twice to absorb all the advice, very well done. Episodes like this keep my boat purchase need in check, thank goodness!
Generators, tell me about it. Or rather don’t! They are by far the worst equipment on a boat.
They will always fail. That’s no problem (motors do fail sometimes) but (smal) generators are failing too often.
A manufacturer who can fix that will have good business and leave eventually the failures behind.
Hi Camilla, and thanks for being with us. Yes, I agree on all your points. It's just such a tough environment that they live and work in. And electrical components are so sensitive to moisture and corrosion. Galvanic corrosion especially. And I'd say that the Kubota Z482 is a workhorse engine used throughout the agricultural industry. But the wiring, relays, solenoids, etc. are the weak link. I also believe that the newer Fischer Pandas are doing a better job with automotive style on-board diagnostics (OBD). In my view, the single most difficult system to keep going is actually watermakers. I'd estimate that 50-60% of the marine watermakers on cruising sailboats are inoperable.
Ok, HOW on earth did you know that exactly? Seriously, right away at @ 0:38 you just said something that I would never figure out or understand = in fact I still have no idea what the hell you just said. What on earth, and when, did you do something in your life as a young man that would make you know what you just said. I simply don't understand it. I feel so inadequate at times because of the natural difference between me and they way guys think. Seriously.. How do you know this? It's like you just look at something, or listen to something, and know right away what makes it tick.