Repressing masculinity (especially the parts of it you deem 'bad') is more dangerous than embracing it and channeling it. This is why we need male only groups for boys and (young) men, to learn healthy masculinity from positive male role models. RIP boy scouts...
Masculinity is mostly a social construct, there is a bit of inherent biology in it however it’s largely performative, no one is trying to suppress culturally masculine traits that are socially conditioned in men and young boys, if you are considered masculine or naturally have some traits that are considered masculine that is fine, it’s just when you shun and demonize men who don’t naturally have these traits that is the problem, you may feel attacked whenever conversations about toxic masculinity are brought up, you can feel however you want however that won’t change the fact that you are wrong.
No no no. Masculinity CAN’T be repressed. We literally force it. We need more gender mixing in groups, not groups segregated by gender(like archaic boy scouts) because social traits are not determined by gender.
@@ChibiChubbyRobo Men go through experiences that only other men can experience, so it makes sense to have some sex segregated spaces. A woman isn't a man, so sons of single mothers suffer by not having a father/male role model- how can you learn to be a man if there aren't men to teach you? Throughout history, there have been rite of age rituals for boys where they had to learn from men, and that's something that's missing today. There's a book called "Boys Adrift" by Leonard Sax you should read.
kazoosc yes it exists. I would stop using this stupid response as a gotcha if you want to be taken seriously ever. It is over used, tired, and just implies you are just here to try to derail the conversation with a "but what about this?" when we are talking about this other thing.
not an attempt at a 'gotcha' -- an honest question. I can not recall an occasion where anyone has called out a case of toxic femininity in the press cases where .. critics .. have called out feminism as a whole, yes -- but I generally dismiss those. can you give an example?
kazoosc a case of toxic feminity? women are expected to want children. if you don't want children you get hell from all sides. you're supposed to be caring and nurturing. I practically raised my cousin's kids and I still get from my mother don't you want children you should have your own children. constantly. women are expected to know how to cook. I knew a woman whose husband did most of the cooking and she got hell for it too just like he did. even though she did other tasks. rigid gender ideals hurt everyone. men's just push them to not seek help when they need it. and the violent alternatives are more dangerous than the generally self destructive "feminine" equivalent.
Another example for you: I asked my stepmother and she added that she had friends that were constantly berated and called bad mothers because their husband stayed at home to take care of the children. In one case he's a disabled vet, in the other case the economy decided he was to be fired, and then there was the baby to take care of and he still didn't have a job and childcare is crazy expensive. Both couples get crap from men and women. The women are told they're bad mothers, the men are told they're not manly. it's all bullshit.
Really liked the video. Like you said, men are not inherently toxic but gender roles that are forced upon men and women often are. Vulnerability is great and it's great when male-identified people can be vulnerable but expressing emotion should not have to be something that is seen as "being against the norm"
Neutral Person Forced upon by societal expectations. Expectations for what men and women “should be” because of their gender that were taught to or forced upon our parents by their parents/families which they then put upon us. It’s a cycle that has society telling us what we can or can’t do simply because we are a certain gender. When it comes to families enforcing these roles, it’s often because it’s all they know based on what they learned and it’s not inherently meant to be harmful, but it is because it can be very limiting and have detrimental effects on confidence and self-worth. If we don’t properly educate ourselves and others on the detrimental impacts of things like toxic masculinity and regressive ideas on gender roles, the cycle will continue.
As a man I'm very happy with being masculine, and I take issue with feminist women telling me how to be a man. This is part of the backlash against "toxic masculinity". Men and women are different and deal with things differently. Very few (if any) men nowadays are told they can't cry. Women's notions of what it's like to be a man today are misinformed and inaccurate. As men we're told men are bad, masculinity is bad etc. by feminists.
Erik The Dread There’s a difference between masculinity and toxic masculinity. There’s nothing wrong with being masculine and there’s nothing wrong with being whatever type of man you feel most comfortable being in terms of being masculine or feminine. Being masculine in of itself is not toxic, it’s the culture and societal expectations surrounding gender “norms” and expectations of how one should behave based on their gender that are toxic. The point of this video, and pointing out toxic masculinity in general, is that what society expects a man to be is often limiting and harmful to both the individual and those around them. It’s about spreading awareness on harmful behavior and harmful cultural/societal norms. It’s not about saying that it is inherently bad to be masculine.
I understand, but I see feminists who talk in a negative manner about men and masculinity. You and Marina here may not agree, but there are feminists who don't like men, blame men for all kinds of things, and think masculinity is bad. When I hear feminist women talk about how men should be able to cry and then see feminist women with "Male Tears" mugs, mocking "male fragility", I can't help but feel that feminists are mocking the very ideas they're promoting.
As she said in the video not all roles or stereotypes are toxic, the problem is that people still believe that men and women should display these traditional traits and only these traditional traits which can be very damaging.
It depends on the situation as to whether these traits are a problem, everyone needs to be a little aggressive at times or they would be walked over by anyone their whole life but what toxic masculinity defines is that these traits need to be tempered or they can cause problems for the individual. Free choice does come into it but if you are raised in an environment you will be in some way a product of that environment e.g children of alcoholics being more likely to become alcoholics themselves.
During gym One time I was forced to choose a girl as a partner for the sport badminton. I didn’t want to, and said I would prefer one of “the boys” ( my friend group) to be my partner. The coach preceded to tell me I didn’t have a choice in the matter. Whatever. So, I started to look around my class to choose a female partner, and they started to make fun of me. I would hear phrases such as “ew, don’t pick me”, “ you’re so weird”, etc. I didn’t really mind that my partner had to be female although I would prefer to have a male partner for this specific sport. However, the girls in my class made it embarrassing for me when one of them said “ whoever you pick, you must have a crush on” I preceded to say ew, no and they just said “he’s probably gay”. As frustrating as it was I did eventually picks girl I had been sort of friendly with since the beginning of the year. All around me, girls (and some guys) were hooting and hollering saying “oooh, he likes her”. At that point I was very embarrassed and frustrated. One group of girls sarcastically asked me if I was “dating” my partner, which I immediately said no to. Eventually, we started playing, and….. it was hell on earth. Half the time she was just on the phone during the game. Whenever she did try, she just couldn’t hit anything. Her hand eye coordination was that of a five year old child. Eventually while she was texting someone I asked her if she could actually try because I didn’t want to lose cause of her. The other team kept aiming at her with the shuttlecock and got many points. She just scoffed at me and ignored me. I got angry with everything and called her dumb. Others heard me and started gasping and going “ how could you say that”, blah blah blah, “ toxic” blah blah. I was viewed as a toxic male who just wanted to dominate and win at the sport, and that I disliked girls. Great.
I always laugh when people respond to the phrase “toxic masculinity” with “you’re saying masculinity is toxic.” Dude, doesn’t the phrase “toxic masculinity” suggest there’s healthy masculinity? Otherwise we would just say “masculinity”
TheJabberwocky28 well yeah, men shouldn’t be telling women how feminism needs to change. Feminism is primarily a movement for women. Are you seriously saying that men commit suicide because women want to be treated like human beings?
Okay, I guess there's always someone who tries to flip the argument and feels clever about it. So here we are again. Representations of masculinity are literally unavoidable. Whenever a new movie, video game or book comes out, it's usually presented through a male perspective - even non-fiction literature. Ads are 99% aimed at male viewers or at no particular gender. In fact, most "gender-neutral" things are predominantly aimed male consumers bc in mainstream culture the default human is thought as male. That's why it's much easier for women to understand and sympathize with men than the other way around. Unfortunately, sometimes it's even hard for a woman to not favor the needs of men above those of women bc we're exposed so much to male perspectives and so little to female perspectives other than our own. This is not an isolated effect. Just compare how much the average American Christian knows about, let's say, Sikhism and how much the average American Sikh knows about Christianity. @Neutral Person Suicide is always the result of severe mental illness.
ProudPancake! That's not the point. The point is that things that feel natural to certain men and with which they feel comfortable is being called 'toxic' by certain females. So in a way, they're saying some of our fundamentals are wrong and need to be changed when calling it 'toxic'.
@ TheJabberwocky28 "Further, the argument isn't that men just haven't spent enough time trying to understand women, it's that we were not born as women and therefore cannot possibly understand their perspective. I wasn't being clever, I was using the exact same logic used by proponents of this asinine argument." Well, when I said "No, there are no women's or men's issues. (...) Men can also learn about these issues and form a valuable opinion on it", you were the one who claimed: "There are plenty of issues that are unique to each sex. You dressing that up with jargon doesn't change that fact. Renaming the black plague to the silly sickness doesn't change it's effects or nature." If you just wanna have an argument with yourself, please don't spam it around. You're literally the only person who has made "this asine argument"
Masculinity itself? No. I can definitely appreciate a manly man who's respectable, with a beautiful beard or traditionally masculine traits. As long as that person is good and wonderful, it's all gucci. People just don't understand that Toxic Masculinity is punishing someone for...being human.
As a man I have two main problems with the way feminists use "toxic masculinity": 1. From my perspective, a lot of what feminists label as "toxic" can just be normal masculine behaviour, like competitiveness or assertiveness. Even violence (when used in self-defence) doesn't inherently have to be toxic. 2. A lot of people using the term are women, and often they seem to be lecturing men on how to be men when they have no business doing that.
Erik The Dread Maybe if you took the time to listen to us, you'll realize that not only is Toxic Masculinity a thing, it's often forced onto men and everyone suffers as a result, even if they benefit from the privelage that society gives to men. Crying is normal behavior, as well as healthy. It's okay to be feminine. Also... being competitive isn't a masculine thing. Being "dominant" is also 100% forced onto boys growing up.
+Makayla Serniotti _Maybe if you took the time to listen to us, you'll realize that not only is Toxic Masculinity a thing, it's often forced onto men and everyone suffers as a result, even if they benefit from the privelage that society gives to men._ Meanwhile, 'HeForShe' is an example of 'virtuous masculinity,' yes? And it's 'privilege.' If you're going to recklessly abuse a term, at least learn to spell it properly. _Crying is normal behavior, as well as healthy._ It's also not feminine. Men don't need to be told they can cry, thanks. I last wept at my father's funeral. I'm guessing you last wept at the '13 Reasons Why' finale. _It's okay to be feminine._ Well, apparently, male tears _are_ a delicacy for feminists. And also, isn't calling crying feminine an example of 'toxic masculinity?' _Also... being competitive isn't a masculine thing. Being "dominant" is also 100% forced onto boys growing up._ Which is exactly how this works; two different definitions for the same thing, and the worst one is 'toxic masculinity.' Nice try.
so good!! my partner told me he felt insane when he felt he could only react to negative experiences with anger ;-; we're working on talking about our spiney hedgehogs instead of throwing them at one another ♥︎
As a guy, and feminist for several years now, I still deal with aspects of toxic masculinity that crop up now and then that I have to unlearn. And that's OK, it's a process. But it's a shame the phrase has been turned into a snarl word, especially since it's usually the guys most effected by-often also being victims to it-who are the most closed off to learning about it. Believe me, there are lots of problems you'll want to address by 30. And I'm fucking glad I took the path I did. I (and the people around me) would be *a lot* worse off, especially looking at the path some other dudes in my generation have taken. I look around and I cringe. You don't want to be in that scene. Trust me, that shit's wack.
Neutral Person Because the problems are cause by a set of ideas around what it means to be masculine that are ultimately toxic and dangerous to yourself as well as others. It's a specific phrase with a specific meaning address a specific problem.
@ Christopher A. Thank you for being one of the few reasonable men in the comment section. "especially since it's usually the guys most effected by-often also being victims to it-who are the most closed off to learning about it." Absolutely :) This issue had been addressed by some leftist men's movements like the Men's Liberation but a huge problem with male persons who get bullied a lot for being "not real men" is that they usually become desperate to prove otherwise... and it takes a lot critical thinking to not comply to the hegemony. For many people, getting a little taste of power is better than standing up against their ab-s-rs.
_Because the problems are cause by a set of ideas around what it means to be _*_black Jewish_*_ that are ultimately toxic and dangerous to yourself as well as others. It's a specific phrase with a specific meaning address a specific problem._ Congratulations, you've all just perfectly described the toxic ethnicity of gun crime and gang culture, as well as the toxic semitism that explains wealth acquisition. 'Oh, but that's not the same because herpa dee derpy derp, et cetera,' don't bother. Your abject lack of personal sovereignty sickens me. How long are you going to stand for people telling you that because you were born male, you're an animal that needs to 'unlearn' things to be considered human? It's one of the vilest, most hateful things I've ever heard, and one day, maybe when some of you have boys of your own, you look down into their big, wide eyes and you hear yourself repeating this garbage to them, you will be as utterly ashamed of yourselves as you should be right here and now.
The Mighty Fiction When the most popular artistic expression of women consistes of "Two girls, one cup", the hottest female UA-cam channel is "Whitney Wisconsin", continuing uncensored, when RadFems best and brightest call for euthanasia as a way of dealing with dissent.... You needn't GAF of their opinion. Point and catcall. They get excited with that stuff.
Nice video and a good explanation for what the term actually means. I have to say though that just based on the wording I really dislike the term(not the meaning behind it) . I think that the word combination "toxic masculinity" itself just implies hostility. I think that is why many people just recoil immediately when they hear it and also why I often see it used more as a slur, then to actually explain behaviour. I know you didnt invent it, and I know that it's really hard to change a term like this once it is established. But in my opinion wording for terms like this really DOES matter, because they can either promote or stifle conversation.
The way I understand it masculinity refers to certain traits, behaviours, and so on that are typically associated with being male. While toxic masculinity is a sort of sub-category within this that refers to the traits or behaviours or whatever that exist within the category of masculinity that are also seen as harmful or damaging.
@@rft9776 As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference: Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
If anyone is interested in learning in depth about toxic masculinity, check out the documentary The Mask You Live In on Netflix. It reiterates the points Marina mentions in the video but takes time to flesh out the points in a longer format.
The problem isn't masculinity being toxic its society that is toxic. Men feel guilty enough for what women had to go through. If you want to help them change the phrase, to something that validates them and their feelings. Why is toxic masculinity there? What drives it? Men or women shouldn't be blamed for it. It should be called "Societal Male Repression"
Marina, this is an unusually accurate and sympathetic description, and I thank you for it. But in your list of the forces which pressure men to repress their true selves in favor of this false image of masculinity, you conspicuously omit women specifically (as opposed to "the culture", which is of course created by all of us). Women have had the "girls' version" of toxic masculinity training, meaning they've been trained to be attracted to men who suck it up, don't complain, fix things, take control, etc. Many women, while understanding intellectually the need to allow men more space to express themselves fully, and while visualizing that we'd all be happier if that were the norm, nonetheless recoil when it actually happens. We have an admirable image in our brains about how we think sex-related relationships should be, but push come to shove our hearts and guts sometimes have not caught up. I can attest that it's very hurtful to be encouraged to soften up a little, show some vulnerability, then be disparaged by the very woman who asked me to take that chance. It's happened more than once. She doesn't do it purposely, to set me up. She just doesn't know herself as well as she thinks she does. But it creates a negative feedback loop whereby men become less willing to try it.
thank you so much for all the emotional labor you do in these videos Marina. I can only imagine how exhausting it is but your content is wonderfully thought out, incredibly informing, and I think really important. Videos like these you make really accessible with the language you use and I think it will really help all the people who have no idea what toxic masculinity is.
I see this in the concept of machismo within my family and community. I watched a video about MRA and I see that people who oppose feminism don’t fully understand the concepts within feminism, like toxic masculinity.
MRAs are often intentionally misrepresent definitions in order to manipulate lonely boys into hating women and blaming feminism for all the problems in the world, especially their personal problems. Hate mongering is the strongest building block of MRAs, MGTOWers, antifeminists or incels.
Not only do a lot of MRAs not understand feminism, they also don't seem to understand the experience of most women. Many MRAs seem to think that life is super easy for women and that women don't face any problems. (To be fair, I suppose there are some feminists who think men don't face any problems too).
PolymorphicPenguin This whole video was a woman not understanding the experience of men or why they do things, not that I blame her for that. Marina seems to assume we are the way we are because we were forced into it when it's mostly just the way we panned out. No one forced me to not care a lot about my appearance I just never bothered. No one forced me not to cry in public. I'm just particular with who and when I show my weak side. Doubly so if it's a space where someone can exploit that weakness. Generally when things don't go my way I don't get mad I get determined and maybe a bit more aggressive. I much prefer a proactive approach to problem-solving. I don't know when I'll be forced to deal with something alone so it's good to be prepared for that. It also means I don't burden anyone else that have their own problems. In some cases I learn enough about the problem I face that I'll have valuable experience to share with people going through the same ordeal. Certainly it happens that people are forced into roles they don't fit or want to be part of. I completely agree that neither men nor women should be FORCED into a role they clearly don't fit and want no part of. But I refuse to be "fixed" or "cured" of my personality. Especially by people that don't know me or understand my perspective and I'm sure a lot of men agree.
hedberger im a man and i disagree, you didnt understand what Marina said. its about the message that people tell each other, how there is only one way to be a man and you wont be respected and desired in any other way. forcing is not what you imagine, its just a repetitive message a strong influence from family and peers that forms the personality and nobody wants to fix your personality if you dont want to fix it (unless you commit a crime ofc), but you should fix your message you tell others about being a "true" man if it implies cutting off emotions. what she said is that society needs to revise the message it gives regarding gender roles, because its not as helathy as it could be. in short, the problem is with the message
Thank You! Love you... (your work, view point) I’m seriously happy that we never have to debate. You’d sly the other in a debate. So happy to have came across your channel years back. -peace
Great intro to the topic, Marina! I was imagining losing video for half of an episode 😳 It’d be great to have you dig into the “why” masculinity norms are the way they are in a future video. Would love to hear your take.
I did this short course with a bunch of people and over lunch this girl was talking about how her boyfriend had been too embarrassed for her to see him cry and she didn't understand why he was so upset about her seeing him that way. So she asked the table (all guys except both of us) if they also were that way and if they felt they had to repress their emotions... and they all said similar stuff like 'no I don't think I do, I just don't feel like crying' and 'I naturally don't get that emotional'.....
They weren't lying. They didn't feel like crying but they were in pain and no they were not repressed. I know exactly what they were talking about. From what I understand, it's brain structure but I'm no expert. I only know there are some very real differences between us. But your male friends pain is real and yes they are fully aware of it. As a man I feel pain, I'm human, but my instincts are not to automatically express and give voice to the feelings I hold but to address my feelings and how I came to feel them. This isn't any socialization but a very real instinct in me. I always reflect and asses how I came to my current state and then take an action to improve it. It's automatic in me and I don't even think of it. I don't want to succumb to and be awash in my feelings, that would be and has been when I've made my worst mistakes. This is where the shame of your friend comes from, if I do succumb I cannot and will not be able to act in a healthy way to resolve my issues. I'm out of control and without direction; I'm lost. Even so, I do cry on rare occasions. In private and when appropriate. But this is where his girlfriend can help him to feel better. By listening to his conflicts and helping him resolve them. Not by addressing his feelings, but by respecting his feelings and addressing the issues that generate his pain and helping him find a solution. It's in the actions he will take that he will find inner peace because he is in control of himself again and not the outside world. Listen in some time to two men discussing a problem that one of them has and you will see it's automatic with us. We don't even think of it; we just help each other find answers and we don't mince over our feelings. We just accept they are real and a reaction to our issues. Like most men, I don't tend towards emotional expressivity, but expressivity seems to be the only benchmark for health these days. Whereas 40 years ago a man taking action to resolve his issues and ease his pain by setting his life in order was recognized for the healing that it is. Men process emotions differently than women do and this has been denied for too long. So long that people in the psychiatry industry have told me that many now refuse to recognize and support male coping mechanisms as valid forms of healing. Is it any wonder we avoid therapy when we are denied our innate selves?
Another thing to look at is the fact that some women don't find man that cry attractive. So its all good and fine to show your emotion but them when you get rejected for it, it doesn't give you an incentive to do so
I like it when women speak up about the ways society limits and hurts those assigned male and tries to turn us into monsters and bullies us when we're not masculine enough. I know the pain of all that. I know some of the pain I felt was because of being trans but I also know some of the pain I felt was because of toxic masculinity and I still think it is important to encourage men to free themselves from these forces that bully and control them. I've always said that patriarchy hurts men too. It's so important for feminists to talk about this stuff. Men need to free themselves and be more whole, well rounded people. For their own benefit as well as for the people around them. Thanks for talking about this x
I despise how toxic masculinity fucks with 'boys don't cry' in particular. Crying is a super helpful way to process or understand your emotions; even if it didn't also have immediate tangible phsyical repsonses that help you feel better (which it does), knowing what things make you cry and what things don't allows you to understand more about yourself, how you think about the world and if there's anything in your life you want to change to be better.
+Notorietypulp So are we saying crying is feminine, then? Or that 'male tears' are different? I am sick to the fillings of this garbage notion that men need to be instructed by women how to process their emotions _like_ women in order to be emotionally healthy. We don't. Masculine men don't give even a shadow of a fuck who wants to tell them when and where they can and can't cry, or who sees them do so. The difference is in the reasons. I last wept at my father's funeral, for example. I suspect some others last cried at the season finale for '13 Reasons Why.'
3 quarters of this are cultural and have nothing to do with masculinity. But in any case society forms social carrots and sticks in order to promote traits that are beneficial to that society. And in most cases beneficial to the individual as well. For example displaying emotions in public could easily lead to abuse as people might take advantage of your emotional vulnerability, not to mention that stranger on the street is not your therapist and not obligated to deal with your emotions. All of it is just common sense and the fact that you attack it makes me think that you simply want to make man vulnerable and weak. Also in overwhelming majority of cases when feminists use this term they do it with expressed intent to silence, bully, shame and degrade man. So you can repeat same talking points as much as you want, but majority of people see thought the bullshit.
Huh? Where is she saying that she wants you to vent to strangers or start crying in the street? NOBODY should be doing that. And men are indeed vulnerable and weak sometimes, just like women are because men are human beings who can't always be strong and that's okay. Trying to end a system that limits the emotional depths men are able to express without being shamed is not really silencing. At all.
Hmm? If you as man were to express your feelings in private to a loved one or a therapist how can society possible attack you for that if you do it in private, unless that person betrays your trust?
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference: Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Aggression isn't always a negative trait. Aggression can be very beneficial for first responders who need to set aside their sense of self preservation to get other people out of a dangerous situation (particular if a violent individual is involved). Aggression is also necessary for healthy competition.
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference: Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
There is a time and place to be aggressive, you don't want to be a push over either, being handy is a great because it saves money, its ok to cry and there is nothing wrong with showing your emotions but don't over do it because other people have their own problems too and can't always be your emotional outlet, if you don't feel good then go see a doctor, be respectful of others, and don't confuse being a man or masculinity with being an asshole, not all men are assholes and not all assholes are men, live and let live, follow the golden rule and remember your rights end where mine begin and vice versa... etc etc, this is all common sense. And yes I AM A MAN, not because anyone told me that I am, but because I SAY AND KNOW THAT I AM.
The point of parents (sometimes) telling their children to "be strong, don't cry" isn't to hide their emotions but to learn to deal with it and get over it, because little children don't always cry because they are sad but to attract the attention of their parent.They cry for example if they want an ice cream but can't have it. It's part of the growing up process to not cry about every little triviality. It's not to hide your emotions but to regulate them. Not every emotion is valid. Spoiled, selfish brats who cry because they didn't get a ferrari for their birthday are annoying. But yes, it shouldn't be gendered. Some parents treat their daughters as "their little princess" who get everything they want and spoil them thereby, whereby the sons are supposed to be humble. Spoiled girls are just as annoying as spoiled boys. I think that all virtues and vices are gender neutral. It's just as good for a man to be strong, brave and courageous as for a woman.It's just as bad for a man to be selfish and egocentric as for a woman. It's just as good for a man to be empathetic and compassionate as for a woman. It's just as good or a woman to be mechaniically, pragmatically talented as for a man. etc. "Toxic masculinity" as well as "toxic feminity" is when a character trait that is actually bad, like being eog-centric or dependent and helpless is made into some sort of virtue for one gender but not the other or when a charater quality that is actually good, like being courageous is made into something bad when exhibited by one gender but not the other.
Just adding to what you said, as well as being socially punished for feminine behaviour, men are also socially rewarded for abusive behaviour. Everything from "locker room talk" to the Stubenville rape case. Rape culture and toxic masculinity are closely related, especially in cases where men brag sexual assault. Heck, doing so can make you president.
What about the underage girls backstage in changerooms at beauty pagaents that he'd just walk through, specifically so he could stare at underage girls in various states of undress? Did they "invite" him into their changeroom? Or were they "asking for it" by being contestants in the first place? Do you really want to go there?
The old bait and switch of changing the subject. And YES, he was caught on video, talking about how wonderful it was to be able to go backstge, and watch the young girls get dressed, because he owned the beauty pagaent. That clip simply got largely drowned out by all the rest of the awfulness in that overall awful election. But I assure you, I saw it on the BBC, and was horrified that Americans would even allow that thing into politics.
+neuralmute Your naked hypocrisy sickens me. The other candidate in that election was a serial enabler who silenced the women her husband _rrrrrRAPED,_ and you people have the iron-clad _nerve_ to climb up on your three-legged high horse over a couple of off-color jokes. Un. F*@king. Believable.
Danni Jaeger let's not forget Duke La Crosse rape! Billboards shaming the bastards, 88 professors signing the petition, suspension of the athletic event, loss of reputation... Oh, yeah. It turned out, the Rape didn't happen. Lying without consequences or accountability. Toxic Femininity.
Well that's very interesting. The stuff about emotions and how you're not allowed to react to things negatively. On one hand everyone surely experiences bad stuff and a lot of it, and repressing it surely makes it worse, but on the other hand... Everyone has met that person, who's just a ray of genuine sunshine and makes people around them feel better. And even though they have a regular (or sometimes even bigger) amount of bad stuff in their lives, it just can't shake them. They're still their wonderful and sunshiny selves. What I'm getting at here is that toxic opinions (don't whine, be strong, fix cars) sort of come from a good place even though are completely impractical? And when they're addressed I think it's important to mention this. The message of "you should try to do better" should not get lost behind "it's ok to fail", because both are equally true.
Thanks for this video. I've been saying for a while that 'the patriarchy is a double-edged sword', and it's good to see it talked about. Homophobia, transphobia, the treatment of male victims of IPV and rape (particularly where the attacker was a woman) -- it all links back to toxic masculinity. Other men should want to do something about this, even if it's just for themselves.
many women are homophobic and transphobic too, it has no link to any form of masculinity. You have to admit feminism has some part to play in the treatment of male victims of female on male abuse, they constantly push the men bad women good narrative in the media.
@@Ash-gtr32 As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference: Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
I am actively seeking out feminists to understand what you mean by toxic masculinity, because my understanding is that feminists believe toxic masculinity exists but toxic femininity does not exist. This seems odd to me, and my gut leads me to believe the phrase itself is anti-male if it doesn't go for both genders. After watching this video, it seems like you are describing toxic masculinity as society telling men how to be manly, basically be overly tough, not girly, have manly hobbies, suppress emotions, etc. So why is there no toxic femininity? Wouldn't toxic femininity be society telling women how to be women?
I like most of this video. I don't like the term toxic masculinity because it seems to conflate masculinity with toxicity. I know in fact that'll not what is trying to be said, but it gets people ready for someone to attack them like if i wanted to talk about common negative behavioral trends in women, the word toxic femininity might make you feel like you're going to be seeing someone attack women for being feminine. I personally think that the core of masculinity is about protecting and providing for those you care about. I'm not saying always physically defending or providing financial support as the traditional gender roles say. As a gay man who usually takes a more (as society calls it) dominant role in relationships, but my boyfriends provide me with so much and protect me from so much. While I'm usually more capable of defending myself and providing financially, my boyfriends help me cope with my depression and anxiety. They provide me with their care and affection and support when i don't know how to do that on my own. They protect me from bottling all my problems and stress. I think that these traits are so masculine and so amazing, even though that caring supportive attitude emotionally is mocked in boys and men. I would like to clarify that in this statement I'm not trying to say that men are masculine and women are feminine exclusively, I'm not trying to gender anything. We all sgare a balance of masculine and feminine traits, just men tend towards the higher masculinity side and women tend towards the higher femininity side on MOST instances. But i love y'all masc girls and fem boys, y'all awesome. Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference: Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Modern/ feminism is the only thing which is not toxic actually... Men calling it toxic actually proves the feminist point that toxic masculinity does exist and rampant
@@barnaliadhikary9421 no you just proved you are illogical and think emotionally. If someone disagreeing with you “proves your point” is your argument than you stand on emotion not logic and therefore have no argument. When you cry your right because you say so and your a feminist and cannot be criticized or be wrong, you prove your immaturity.
As someone who was assigned male, my experience of not knowing basic household cleaning or cooking for myself just hurt me. Even when i was presenting male and was in a relationship with a woman, i had plenty of situations where she wasn't able to cook etc and i had to help. X( people get sick, etc why not teach all basic life skills to all genders? Makes more sense.
artemismeow I'm about to graduate with my bachelor's in Nutrition and men not being able to cook is a huggggeeee problem. Home prepared are generally healthier than ones bought out but it's difficult with men who either can't or have an aversion to cooking.
It's toxic behaviors, not a matter of masculine or feminine. While parts are more culturally designated to a specific gender than others they are parts of a whole none the less that exist to both so addressing it in gender-neutral terms makes better sense than separating aspects to specific groups since it doesn't dichotomize the matter to the same extent. When it's gender-neutral it's easier to get people to empathize with others and come to an introspective understanding of the elements of themselves that are toxic and deal with them. When someone is too occupied with defending themselves from what they feel as a gendered attack the toxic behaviors that are trying to be addressed become a darker part of the shadow and end up manifesting themselves in far more destructive ways.
I was surprised that you were so balanced in your views. I'm seeing genuine compassion for men, so you have my appreciation and respect. Thank you for recognizing that men are human, and that it makes sense that if they are oppressed by the pressures on them, it would do psychological harm. The term "toxic masculinity" has been coined by, and survives due to feminists using it. So talk to your fellow feminists and tell them the term is stupid. Otherwise, you're keeping the stigma alive. And while the feminists' position is that testosterone, and the drive to be alpha, fuels selfish behavior, there's solid research showing that the more alpha-males, and those with high testosterone are more likely to be generous and put themselves at risk for their families and tribes. Re. pressure on men to be strong, and not show weakness and emotion. A lot of this comes from women. In my life, I've had women try to shame and box me in far more than men and boys. Re. violence: the gap between women and men committing isn't as great as we're led to believe. In hetero couples, women instigate violence 70-80% of the time. Men are much more likely to commit violence against other men. The most violent couples are lesbians, followed by heteros, and lastly, gay men. Another example of feminism being man-hating: the primary enemy of feminism is patriarchy. Yet, the average dude doesn't have much power, and has the same struggles as women in his socio-economic class, except that he has gets less support, less empathy, and is more likely to be isolated and excluded. The patriarchy should be called the ruling class. Women's role in keeping the ruling class alive is huge! Women are selectors, and men do a lot of what they do to earn female companionship. Men's loneliness and needs around companionship, belonging, intimacy and sex drive a lot of their behavior -- and it's easy to see that fame, wealth and power attracts women. Furthermore, while men are visible in the ascension to power, women marry it. Women have the life hack of being able to attract a powerful man. Thus, you have the poor schmuck who puts in thousands of hours to attain a position, and women could do the work themselves to get there, but they have the additional life hack of knowing that with some make up, the right clothes, they can attract their way into that lifestyle. And when the get the divorce, they'll get to keep a lot of those unearned assets. Men face a lot of exclusion, rejection, and isolation. In summary: you're doing a good job. Feminism, no so much.
The term "toxic masculinity" never bothered me because I always thought of it like a nutrient toxicity. Vitamins like A, E, D, and K have known toxicities if overconsumed but that doesn't mean they are bad, they are actually necessary.
So, feminine and masculine character traits are basically genderless because they’re exhibited by both men and women (and also by non-binary people). Is there even a need to define them as masculine or feminine? (*screaming* What makes people comfortably ID as men or women? Appearance? Behavior? But non of these things are universal!*screaming intensifies*)
Даша Горохова yeah, that’s what marina’s actually promoting. The whole idea is mainly that the society genders things as masculine or feminine, not that certain traits are “for” women or men. (people’s identities are basically just things within. There are “feminine” trans men and “masculine” trans women, it just depends on how they feel inside.)
Good stuff. And this connects so much to incels (incels means involuntarily celibate, and refers to a group of white, cis, hetero men who haven't experienced as much sex, dating, etc. as they would like, and alas, it's not men just wanting to find someone to truly connect with, nope, it's guys who think this is all women's fault and they use that to be really awful and violent towards them. Think Elliot Rodgers, and more recently, the guy in Toronto who ran a van into a bunch of people) and how they tie their masculinity to misogyny and feeling entitled to women's bodies. It's terrible.
starpasta Such bigotry! Black, Latino, Asian lads with MS, Cerebral palsey, wheelchair bound men, (car accident, CVA, etc) autists, etc, are involuntarily celebate. It is merely fashionable to denigrate white, het, cis males. This compartmentalizing of which racial bigotry to express without fear of any accountability or consequences is most assuredly a "Toxic Femininity" issue.
I think this only applies to certain elements of traditional masculinity. Couldnt we just tweak it instead of getting rid of it entirely (Not that you've proposed that, but ive seen plenty who have.)
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference: Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Violence is not a bad neither any virtue or attribute it's how you use it.For example being dishonest is considered bad virtue but if you lie to save your life it becomes a good virtue all "The good or bad virtue is based on the application".Men need to be violent but sensible enough to make decision when to be violent and when to be not.
To reduce people and their preferred traits to a negative label is objectification, stigmatizing and sexism rolled into one. Let people be what their preferred choice. To persist in this can be condescending and very your-pov-centric preachy. And overly reductionistic as well.
R Antares for the most part a lot of people who despise the term toxic masculinity seem to have misunderstood the movie. I think the message was too subtle.
Avrysatos They should definitely read the book, where it's clear that the aim of fight club and project mayhem is to 'heal' men who don't feel masculine enough in today's society by... taking their aggression out on other people, breaking them down until they have nothing and no one. And here it's especially clear what causes it all -- living in a society where the only place a man can go for emotional support and comfort is a cancer support group. They should see a warning in the story, but they come out wanting to be Tyler Durden because his violent 'if I can't have the world no one can' message supports what they've been told all along. It's cognitive bias all the way through.
+r antares the point of the book/movie was to hit rock bottom and to remove the desire for worldly possessions...the first step to doing that was to rid the body of its fear of being hurt through physical pain...its like u just watched/read the book and didnt even bother to digest the message of the author
Masculinity as set of traditional values and ideals revolves a lot around survival traits required for a man to protect himself and his family, to forge alliances and be valued among allies, and avoid needless enemies in a world where he must largely be self-sufficient (no one will come to his rescue). Being the "bigger man" is important to avoid unnecessary conflicts, for example. That not only protects the man from being hurt but it protects others from being hurt by the man needlessly. Being confident but not egotistical is important since an inflated ego is easily bruised and can, once again, need to unnecessary and possibly violent conflict. Being courageous is important because not everyone can afford to be afraid to walk the streets at night. Someone has to be strong and brave, male or female, to put the others following them at ease. Being true to your word is important, especially as a leader, so that you can inspire loyalty (as opposed to demanding it or instilling it through fear) and be valued as a dependable member of your community. Communicating directly and openly with courage is important because it leads to conflict resolution. Back-stabbing and gossiping and manipulation can escalate and spread the conflict to a point of bringing in people to take sides who weren't even involved in the conflict in the first place. Avoiding grudges and being willing to forgive and, once more, be the bigger man is important to avoid creating lifelong enemies. Again it's a useful type of self-discipline to promote alliances and resolve needless conflicts. Protecting and providing for your family might be outdated but only in the sense that males should exclusively do this. It's a good trait for both mothers and fathers to have. In that case, the man no longer needs to be the only dependable one to, say, guide his family to safety during a time of crisis. Both the mother and father could be strong and brave in those moments if this traditionally masculine ideal was embraced by both sexes. After all, we have our share of single mothers, and they'll need to be as strong and as brave as the traditional father figure if they want their children to grow up to be strong and self-sufficient, e.g. Perhaps if women could embrace some of these masculine traits, we could do away with the expression, "Protect the women and children!" Instead we'd just say, "Protect the children!" Males and females would both be brought up in a way where they can perfectly fend for themselves and work together to guide those who cannot to safety. Yet I fear we're steering society towards an emasculated type where we might have to instead shout, "Protect the men, women, and children!" only to find no volunteers. I can keep going but these traits were important to steer men away from misbehavior of a kind that would lead to needless conflict and possibly violence. A man is perfectly capable of being a protector or a predator or a victim. Traditional masculine ideals were important to steer men towards the noble protector and away from the cowardly predator or victim. Most importantly, they were important values for anyone (traditionally men only, now both men and women) to be able to navigate the harsh world as is. The reason fathers didn't coddle bully victims and instead lent them a firm but gentle hand, encouraged them to stand strong and proud, and wipe away any tears was to teach them how to protect themselves from any bullies in the future. The maternal approach of expressing emotional outrage and contacting authorities might have saved the child from one bully in school at best, but it wouldn't have taught the child how to protect himself/herself for the rest of his/her life. That approach would create a dependent type of person always seeking others to come to his/her rescue which females might still be able to rely on to a great degree but males cannot. What people label as "toxic masculinity" seems more like a failing of people to be masculine than anything else. Someone with anger issues, for example, is far from, say, the ideal, thick-skinned hero. That'd be closer to a trait possessed the by archetypal villain or antihero.
Literally none of what you said applies to the real world. You're not hunting a fucking mammoth anymore for sustenance, you're sitting next to Cheryl in accounting to earn money to go to a grocery store to buy food.
And Cheryl probably walks the streets at night afraid unless she is fairly brave or is in the company of someone who is. When women want to deem air conditioning sexist and make catcalling a criminal action, obviously they lack these strengths which could help them navigate the real world without the protection of men from, say, bad men or air conditioners (pro tip: some extra clothing can keep people warm). These values aren't to fend off mammoths. Their primary purpose is to prevent daily conflicts resulting from, say, bullies and assholes, or would you like to claim that assholes and bullies no longer exist? Besides that, if Cheryl could adopt some of these values, she might be promoted to a leader at which point she wouldn't have to worry as much about living paycheck to paycheck just to pay for groceries. Take body positivity as an example. Body positivity incorporated fat acceptance which wants to make being obese acceptable and "healthy" to the point of deeming medical advice a form of discrimination. That's extremely "feminine" in the sense of being completely absent of accountability. The "masculine" path is to take accountability for your own actions meaning accounting for the idea that having 30+% bodyfat is, at the very least, unhealthy. There's a whole lot of daily practicality to masculinity -- to toughen people up against bullies, to make people accountable for their own actions, to make people realize what they're truly good at instead of being awarded participation trophies solely effort absent results. It's what helps scientists and engineers publish papers absent of emotional bias. The "feminine" path is raising a delusional generation of obese people with dreams misaligned with their actual talents -- the analogical obese American Idol contestant who quits his/her job only to embarrass themselves on stage while turning out to be completely tone deaf and incapable of dancing, only to argue with the judges that they're wrong, punch someone who tries to interview them after, and then break down sobbing. It's making them afraid of just about everything in a world completely absent of mammoths while thinking something has to be wrong with the world, not themselves, if things don't always work out their way. It's turning men into womanizers who abandon their children. It's giving minorities a victimhood complex thinking they can't possibly succeed no matter how hard they try, only to give up trying at all and basically seal their fate. We're desperately in need of some of these traditionally "masculine" values -- both men and women alike. "Toxic masculinity" is the absence of these values. It's what you get when you get a being filled with testosterone minus the values that steer him towards a noble, peacekeeping path -- an aggressive, emotional bully. Perhaps a lot of human history was at fault in terms of its exclusion of women from certain parts of society. But it wasn't at fault in terms of steering men away from constantly getting into brawls or taking out their frustrations on defenseless people as a result of being a thin-skinned narcissist with an easily-bruised ego, e.g. It wasn't at fault of building hopelessly ambitious dreams in people who cannot handle failure and can't pick themselves up once their dreams come crumbling down. And your comment illustrates a fundamental disconnect I see between men and women, because if you're assuming these values were primarily for defending against mammoths, there's a serious level of miscommunication between the sexes. We don't need a world full of woolly mammoths to find it extremely valuable to have men (not to mention women) around who are accountable, honest, reliable, use their strengths to protect rather than oppress the weak, deescalate conflicts and avoid needless conflicts, will never abandon their family, avoid holding grudges, and are always willing to let things slide in favoring of being the bigger man (or bigger person). If you think these values aren't practical anymore in our daily interactions, then you're a lot more sheltered than I ever imagined or perhaps just very young. For example, family values aren't something you tend to appreciate until you're older since it requires a realization that the main way "your people" (whatever you define this as -- your immediate loved ones, your lineage, your community, etc) can climb up the economic ladder generally requires more than one generation. The whole point of "family values", albeit sounding very backwards and conservative, is to leave our children with a hope of a better future than what we face in the present.
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference: Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Think I'd have to say that I enjoyed watching your video - although I DO disagree with a few things. Such as it's good to cry and show emotion and let it all out but there's definitely a time we need to be stoic and not show emotion. Like if I just cried and was all emotional over my life's mess ups, all the time, and there has been many, I'd never make any progress. Sometimes jamming that stiff upper lip is all we can do when we're in a turd ocean. Also I get that gender is a dying concept and that both men and women have masculine and feminine traits. I was raised by my mother and learned relational aggression, which could be associated with Toxic Femininity. Like there's good and bad in both genders, it's about how you apply them to your life in a positive or negative way, no?
I remember my high school gym teacher told him his father told him to never cry. And he said that even when he died he never cried. It sounded like he was crying. Crying for help.
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference: Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference: Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Are you familiar with the Proud Boys movement/group? We watched a video about them in one of my courses when discussing/dealing with toxic masculinity topics. I think one man said “they[feminists] want men to stop being men” and I literally shouted at the screen. I get baffled that so many people still don’t understand that toxic masculinity theory differs from the whole “hating men and everything masculine!1!!1”
0:40 Don't feel bad, Marina. I've been trying to tell people that toxic blackness doesn't mean black people are inherently bad or toxic in any way, just that their socio-cultural norms train them to act in undesirable ways. What? Why are you all looking at me like that?
Hey, Marina! Thanks for another great video. I recently had a discussion with my friend about what defines masculinity and we had a difficult time identifying masculine traits. The traits you listed for both toxic masculinity and non-toxic masculinity helped clear that up for me. When put into a nice little video like this, I feel kind of silly not recognizing masculine traits but I’m sure I’m not the only person who fails to do this at times. Btw, I really liked how you supplemented your lack of footage with the 50s stock footage of white dudes, a great editing move if I might say so :)
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference: Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Gotta agree I really hate that term 'toxic masculinity.' I hear so many feminists go 'so many people misunderstand this term!' Me: Yeah, no kidding. I just don't understand how they managed to shot themselves in the foot with that term. Like if it was 'macho bullshit' i bet at least a few people wouldn't misunderstand it.
The way that I best understand toxic masculinity is that it is the elements of masculinity that are toxic to men. It's the rigid socialization that requires men and those AMAB to painfully excise very human parts of themselves to fit a mold - and that pain, both consciously and unconsciously, plays out in every aspect of our society in ways that are harmful to all of us.
They could have in the same way they could have learned it from an abusive father but they would be outliers while most people in life still consume the traditional view of masculinity which informs who they become later in life.
You're talking about these things as if men like this are outliers, caused by something that falls within the realm of what society currently calls abuse. This is the wrong perspective. Toxic masculinity is common and typical. It is insidious and pervasive. It is reinforced by most people. While it could be argued that toxic masculinity is a form of abuse, it isn't currently recognized as such in the eyes of the general public (obviously.) It is most certainly true that emotional neglect is a form of abuse, and bullying and violence play a significant role in enforcing conformation. However, framing this as something a boy could "get" from being abused by a parent isn't getting the point.
Caitlin Logerwell you don't understand how men's heads work. We don't excise parts of humanity. We control them. Emotions are no use when sh*t needs to be done and can more often be a distraction and cause mistakes. There's a time and a place for things. Considering what's harmful, add toxic femininity to the list. Who cares if men have issues? The women are more important. For example the so-called wage gap is apparently more important than men getting abused by their partners. Guess which one gets more coverage? Women's problems always come first in society and I don't see feminism taking issue with that aspect on people's lives. And then people like you turn around and say if only men didn't act like men, as if that is somehow a solution.
So much fucking this!!! I've seen women be so selfish that they outright laugh and mock men that have either almost committed suicide or been abused by a mother, the sheer irony in this is the fact that the majority of these same women would be the ones saying that 'women are marginalised and oppressed'.
The only problem I have with 'toxic masculinity' as a descriptor is that it implies these traits exist on the fringes of male behaviour when a lot of it is quite normalised. It's always shit to hear stories from my girl friends getting groped or straight up manhandled when they go out on weekends, or how quickly and eagerly my brothers escalate arguments to the point of almost hitting each other. All of that confrontational, prideful, macho behaviour permeates a lot of my interactions with other dudes, and while sometimes its fine, it's all starting to blur into this giant masculine mush of dickheads who can't handle healthy, emotional relationships.
When I think of toxic masculinity, I think of behavior that is very normalized but has proven to be counterproductive or straight up harmful. I don't often see it used to describe a fringe phenomenon.
Maybe it's just my perspective, but whenever I see these debates about masculinity people are quick to jump to its defence by claiming that "xyz behaviour is actually toxic masculinity" because "not all men are like that" or whatever. It's a way to protect masculinity by saying there's a "good" version that should be upheld and maintained. I definitely think your definition is more productive tho.
This is all pretty interesting, I am Bi Partisan, but I do support Trump. However it is a necessity to hear both sides of an argument before making a call. It’s so hard because I have so many questions, yet no friends who are Feminist or Liberals. Grrrrr
I agree with the fact of what your talking about but you also got to look at that this is basic biology and social reference. In the terms of men being strong, not being to cry that’s kinda the system of men having to protect the family. I do agree with how we shouldn’t format into that but as I said it’s biology. Like me, I’m a very emotional guy but I do agree that I need to learn how to overcome these emotions. I do believe you are a more bare-able feminist which I thank. I believe you should do more research and instead of talking about this, give a better solution to these problems.
@@marinashutup As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference: Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
I think it's unfortunate that when feminism talks about problematic aspects of oppressive gender structures with regards to men it's called "toxic masculinity" and when doing the same for women the terms sexism is more often used (I guess "feminine mystique" is used as well). It's unfortunate because at the end of the day people _do_ pre-judge words based on what they sound like, and "toxic masculinity" makes it sound like men are the problem (in an essentialist way) and not the culture that shape them. I don't have any solutions myself, but it is my hope that we could create terms that are more self-explanatory. A term that works in an academic might not work that well outside that context in mainstream discussions.
If you want to focus on men’s issues talk to MRA’s. They’re not out to get you. Gender roles are important as Jordan Peterson said. Some guys don’t follow the gender roles. That’s okay! You don’t have to call it toxic masculinity when a man acts aggressive or even commits crime. Think regarding the individual, not men as a collective.
As ironic as it sounds, I find it problematic to call all of these male issues under the term toxic masculinity. Masculinity is important to preserve the nuclear family. If you want to reduce crime and mental health issues, encourage the nuclear family model among youth because the importance of fathers is significant. If you read this Marina, I thank you for listening to a non hostile “opposing opinion”. We may disagree on many things but that should not stop discussion. 👍🏿
If you think MRAs are actually more interested in men's issues than in hate for feminism, show me some actual, concrete good that they have done for men in the last year. What have these groups contributed to men's health or workplace safety? Have they done the grassroots fundraising to open new research into prostate or testicular cancer? Have they opened any new shelters anywhere for abused men? Have they made an innitiative to teach boys that it's okay to cry, and that they can be into dance or cooking if they want, instead of sports? This sort of stuff is exactly how the early feminists got us women to where we are today, with actual funding for healthcare, domestic abuse shelters, and women in every profession. We did it with bake sales, raffles, and small local marches in the beginning. We paid from our own pockets. We wrote books for our daughters, and taught by example. Nobody just "gave" us anything until we were already paying our own way, and making too much noise to ignore. Meanwhile all I've noticed coming from the men's right's types in the news have been a few murders by angry extremists. Tell me what kind of GOOD things you've been doing for men, that doesn't include harming women, without ripping feminism or saying "but women!" once. I dare you.
GAMINEX Nice to see you draw parallel with Peterson and mra's, lol. I know mens rights activists, real ones, that don't associate themselves with mra's and do support feminists. Find those, and drop Peterson, he's lousy psychologist, even (that's my field, I can tell) not to mention everything else, he keeps talking like an expert about things he knows nothing about.
"boys don't cry" yea i have heard it all my life , it made me strong enough to filter people's thoughts and comments about me to select whats good for me and what not.
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference: Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Well shoot, I need to learn that technique myself then. Throughout these years I’ve been hearing nothing but women talk shit about men or me as a male, so I gotta ask how you do it, because sure I can sit there in silence and pretend as if it doesn’t bother me like I usually do, but it still does bother me.
I guess my issue is that this is a gender-role problem, not specifically a masculine problem. It can be called "toxic femininity" if you just talk about the negative roles assigned to women. Women have to repress their anger, they cant be assertive, they have to be docile, but they also can be manipulative, in other words they have to be "lady like". We don't call that toxic femininity though.. So why not call it a toxic gender roles? When you call it toxic masculinity, not only does it feel like its targeting only guys, but by the nature of its name, it has a the propensity to be used incorrectly.
You are definitely not a feminist or what I was expecting at all....great content...but with that said,why give any of it a name or role or anything at all...just be you....I'm a super masculine man (veteran,welder,hunt fish,fix and race cars,fight,so on etc) but I'm confident and comfortable enough to care less what people think of me when it comes to my feelings....the main thing i cant stanf today is people trying to change how society works in a general sense...being a man isn't toxic and nor is being a woman.either way I'm glad I listened to what you had to say before posting a comment,that would have been a mistake bc ur pretty smart and cute plus I agree in a sense with some subjects you spoke on....not sure if I'll sub but I'll give a like..I swear to God if somebody starts shit bc I called her cute..dont objectify her blah blah...
i never grasped nor have i yet done so why cooking is not seen as something males can do, you work with knives, and sometimes fire, you are transforming basic stuff into something great, sounds like something men should want to do, but hey i have just been in the kitchen since before i was a year old so i guess i will never become a MAN...
Lol. I actually came to your channel from another more conservative channel ready to dislike your videos, flag them, get triggered etc, and the title almost made me do that until I actually watched it. I've got to say, this was pretty spot on. Good vid.
As someone who is a big fan of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, I absolutely LOVE how there were men crying in both Black Panther and The Avengers Infinity War. They never belittle or make fun of it either, and it's always the strongest characters who end up showing their emotions. Basically pushes the message that even (those depicted as) the *toughest* of men cry and that's okay/totally normal!
Damnit you convinced me, I'm a feminist now.. because you just don't approach it form such a generic stereotyped way like all those other brand X feminists explain it.
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference: Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
I would say this Men actually talk to other men for a therapist they're are some females understand man but most just hate that the guys so they feel like they don't want to talk to their therapist because of me being told it's all your fault that's kind of thing and female therapist put on it on men men never talk to women that's the only talk to other guys and I trust women therapist
I pass up all the negative comments on this video, and truly APPRECIATE the consensus of positive comments on what you are speaking on, we understand and glad you brought this to light once more because everyone can benefit from understanding what toxic masculinity is and the harm it will cause. :)
I understand the idea of toxic masculinity but I don't like the idea of the name. Like what about toxic femininity? isn't it all just toxic societal gender roles? Both gender roles create toxic aspects. For instance, the number of women who believe it is ok for them to hit a man without any repercussion because "men aren't supposed to hit a woman, period" or "women are weaker" ... believe it or not... it still really hurts to get hit by a female. That is just one example. I do agree with the idea of stopping toxic gender roles in the upbringing of children, but i think we should not make it a male only problem. A lot of women still believe the men should be the ones who provide, or who are supposed to pay for everything while dating. I am only cratching the surfice. It is all just food for thought.
Repressing masculinity (especially the parts of it you deem 'bad') is more dangerous than embracing it and channeling it. This is why we need male only groups for boys and (young) men, to learn healthy masculinity from positive male role models. RIP boy scouts...
Masculinity is mostly a social construct, there is a bit of inherent biology in it however it’s largely performative, no one is trying to suppress culturally masculine traits that are socially conditioned in men and young boys, if you are considered masculine or naturally have some traits that are considered masculine that is fine, it’s just when you shun and demonize men who don’t naturally have these traits that is the problem, you may feel attacked whenever conversations about toxic masculinity are brought up, you can feel however you want however that won’t change the fact that you are wrong.
No no no. Masculinity CAN’T be repressed. We literally force it. We need more gender mixing in groups, not groups segregated by gender(like archaic boy scouts) because social traits are not determined by gender.
@@ChibiChubbyRobo Men go through experiences that only other men can experience, so it makes sense to have some sex segregated spaces. A woman isn't a man, so sons of single mothers suffer by not having a father/male role model- how can you learn to be a man if there aren't men to teach you? Throughout history, there have been rite of age rituals for boys where they had to learn from men, and that's something that's missing today. There's a book called "Boys Adrift" by Leonard Sax you should read.
so is there also a 'toxic femininity'? cases where stereotypical "feminine" values taken to an extreme result in toxic outcomes?
kazoosc yes it exists. I would stop using this stupid response as a gotcha if you want to be taken seriously ever. It is over used, tired, and just implies you are just here to try to derail the conversation with a "but what about this?" when we are talking about this other thing.
not an attempt at a 'gotcha' -- an honest question.
I can not recall an occasion where anyone has called out a case of toxic femininity in the press
cases where .. critics .. have called out feminism as a whole, yes -- but I generally dismiss those.
can you give an example?
kazoosc a case of toxic feminity? women are expected to want children. if you don't want children you get hell from all sides. you're supposed to be caring and nurturing. I practically raised my cousin's kids and I still get from my mother don't you want children you should have your own children. constantly.
women are expected to know how to cook. I knew a woman whose husband did most of the cooking and she got hell for it too just like he did. even though she did other tasks.
rigid gender ideals hurt everyone. men's just push them to not seek help when they need it. and the violent alternatives are more dangerous than the generally self destructive "feminine" equivalent.
thanks for the response
Another example for you: I asked my stepmother and she added that she had friends that were constantly berated and called bad mothers because their husband stayed at home to take care of the children. In one case he's a disabled vet, in the other case the economy decided he was to be fired, and then there was the baby to take care of and he still didn't have a job and childcare is crazy expensive.
Both couples get crap from men and women. The women are told they're bad mothers, the men are told they're not manly.
it's all bullshit.
Really liked the video. Like you said, men are not inherently toxic but gender roles that are forced upon men and women often are. Vulnerability is great and it's great when male-identified people can be vulnerable but expressing emotion should not have to be something that is seen as "being against the norm"
The Chloe Connection
Exactly.
Neutral Person
Forced upon by societal expectations. Expectations for what men and women “should be” because of their gender that were taught to or forced upon our parents by their parents/families which they then put upon us. It’s a cycle that has society telling us what we can or can’t do simply because we are a certain gender. When it comes to families enforcing these roles, it’s often because it’s all they know based on what they learned and it’s not inherently meant to be harmful, but it is because it can be very limiting and have detrimental effects on confidence and self-worth. If we don’t properly educate ourselves and others on the detrimental impacts of things like toxic masculinity and regressive ideas on gender roles, the cycle will continue.
As a man I'm very happy with being masculine, and I take issue with feminist women telling me how to be a man. This is part of the backlash against "toxic masculinity". Men and women are different and deal with things differently. Very few (if any) men nowadays are told they can't cry. Women's notions of what it's like to be a man today are misinformed and inaccurate. As men we're told men are bad, masculinity is bad etc. by feminists.
Erik The Dread There’s a difference between masculinity and toxic masculinity. There’s nothing wrong with being masculine and there’s nothing wrong with being whatever type of man you feel most comfortable being in terms of being masculine or feminine. Being masculine in of itself is not toxic, it’s the culture and societal expectations surrounding gender “norms” and expectations of how one should behave based on their gender that are toxic. The point of this video, and pointing out toxic masculinity in general, is that what society expects a man to be is often limiting and harmful to both the individual and those around them. It’s about spreading awareness on harmful behavior and harmful cultural/societal norms. It’s not about saying that it is inherently bad to be masculine.
I understand, but I see feminists who talk in a negative manner about men and masculinity. You and Marina here may not agree, but there are feminists who don't like men, blame men for all kinds of things, and think masculinity is bad. When I hear feminist women talk about how men should be able to cry and then see feminist women with "Male Tears" mugs, mocking "male fragility", I can't help but feel that feminists are mocking the very ideas they're promoting.
If "toxic masculinity" is just masculine gender roles/stereotypes why aren't feminine gender roles/stereotypes called "toxic femininity?"
it's not men's gender roles as a whole, it's the damage it causes hence *toxic* masculinity
As she said in the video not all roles or stereotypes are toxic, the problem is that people still believe that men and women should display these traditional traits and only these traditional traits which can be very damaging.
It depends on the situation as to whether these traits are a problem, everyone needs to be a little aggressive at times or they would be walked over by anyone their whole life but what toxic masculinity defines is that these traits need to be tempered or they can cause problems for the individual. Free choice does come into it but if you are raised in an environment you will be in some way a product of that environment e.g children of alcoholics being more likely to become alcoholics themselves.
During gym One time I was forced to choose a girl as a partner for the sport badminton. I didn’t want to, and said I would prefer one of “the boys” ( my friend group) to be my partner. The coach preceded to tell me I didn’t have a choice in the matter. Whatever. So, I started to look around my class to choose a female partner, and they started to make fun of me. I would hear phrases such as “ew, don’t pick me”, “ you’re so weird”, etc. I didn’t really mind that my partner had to be female although I would prefer to have a male partner for this specific sport. However, the girls in my class made it embarrassing for me when one of them said “ whoever you pick, you must have a crush on” I preceded to say ew, no and they just said “he’s probably gay”. As frustrating as it was I did eventually picks girl I had been sort of friendly with since the beginning of the year. All around me, girls (and some guys) were hooting and hollering saying “oooh, he likes her”. At that point I was very embarrassed and frustrated. One group of girls sarcastically asked me if I was “dating” my partner, which I immediately said no to. Eventually, we started playing, and….. it was hell on earth. Half the time she was just on the phone during the game. Whenever she did try, she just couldn’t hit anything. Her hand eye coordination was that of a five year old child. Eventually while she was texting someone I asked her if she could actually try because I didn’t want to lose cause of her. The other team kept aiming at her with the shuttlecock and got many points. She just scoffed at me and ignored me. I got angry with everything and called her dumb. Others heard me and started gasping and going “ how could you say that”, blah blah blah, “ toxic” blah blah. I was viewed as a toxic male who just wanted to dominate and win at the sport, and that I disliked girls. Great.
I always laugh when people respond to the phrase “toxic masculinity” with “you’re saying masculinity is toxic.” Dude, doesn’t the phrase “toxic masculinity” suggest there’s healthy masculinity? Otherwise we would just say “masculinity”
Borg Warner not sure what that has to do with my comment, but okay
TheJabberwocky28 well yeah, men shouldn’t be telling women how feminism needs to change. Feminism is primarily a movement for women. Are you seriously saying that men commit suicide because women want to be treated like human beings?
Okay, I guess there's always someone who tries to flip the argument and feels clever about it. So here we are again.
Representations of masculinity are literally unavoidable. Whenever a new movie, video game or book comes out, it's usually presented through a male perspective - even non-fiction literature. Ads are 99% aimed at male viewers or at no particular gender. In fact, most "gender-neutral" things are predominantly aimed male consumers bc in mainstream culture the default human is thought as male. That's why it's much easier for women to understand and sympathize with men than the other way around. Unfortunately, sometimes it's even hard for a woman to not favor the needs of men above those of women bc we're exposed so much to male perspectives and so little to female perspectives other than our own.
This is not an isolated effect. Just compare how much the average American Christian knows about, let's say, Sikhism and how much the average American Sikh knows about Christianity.
@Neutral Person
Suicide is always the result of severe mental illness.
ProudPancake! That's not the point. The point is that things that feel natural to certain men and with which they feel comfortable is being called 'toxic' by certain females. So in a way, they're saying some of our fundamentals are wrong and need to be changed when calling it 'toxic'.
@ TheJabberwocky28
"Further, the argument isn't that men just haven't spent enough time trying to understand women, it's that we were not born as women and therefore cannot possibly understand their perspective. I wasn't being clever, I was using the exact same logic used by proponents of this asinine argument."
Well, when I said "No, there are no women's or men's issues. (...) Men can also learn about these issues and form a valuable opinion on it", you were the one who claimed: "There are plenty of issues that are unique to each sex. You dressing that up with jargon doesn't change that fact. Renaming the black plague to the silly sickness doesn't change it's effects or nature."
If you just wanna have an argument with yourself, please don't spam it around. You're literally the only person who has made "this asine argument"
Masculinity itself? No. I can definitely appreciate a manly man who's respectable, with a beautiful beard or traditionally masculine traits. As long as that person is good and wonderful, it's all gucci.
People just don't understand that Toxic Masculinity is punishing someone for...being human.
What?
Toxic masculinity is about masculine stereotypes that are toxic for people and for society.
As a man I have two main problems with the way feminists use "toxic masculinity":
1. From my perspective, a lot of what feminists label as "toxic" can just be normal masculine behaviour, like competitiveness or assertiveness. Even violence (when used in self-defence) doesn't inherently have to be toxic.
2. A lot of people using the term are women, and often they seem to be lecturing men on how to be men when they have no business doing that.
+Ireallyreally Hategoogle
Nope, it's about taking toxic behaviors and stereotyping them as masculine. Cart very much before the horse here, buddy.
Erik The Dread
Maybe if you took the time to listen to us, you'll realize that not only is Toxic Masculinity a thing, it's often forced onto men and everyone suffers as a result, even if they benefit from the privelage that society gives to men.
Crying is normal behavior, as well as healthy. It's okay to be feminine.
Also... being competitive isn't a masculine thing. Being "dominant" is also 100% forced onto boys growing up.
+Makayla Serniotti
_Maybe if you took the time to listen to us, you'll realize that not only is Toxic Masculinity a thing, it's often forced onto men and everyone suffers as a result, even if they benefit from the privelage that society gives to men._
Meanwhile, 'HeForShe' is an example of 'virtuous masculinity,' yes? And it's 'privilege.' If you're going to recklessly abuse a term, at least learn to spell it properly.
_Crying is normal behavior, as well as healthy._
It's also not feminine. Men don't need to be told they can cry, thanks. I last wept at my father's funeral. I'm guessing you last wept at the '13 Reasons Why' finale.
_It's okay to be feminine._
Well, apparently, male tears _are_ a delicacy for feminists. And also, isn't calling crying feminine an example of 'toxic masculinity?'
_Also... being competitive isn't a masculine thing. Being "dominant" is also 100% forced onto boys growing up._
Which is exactly how this works; two different definitions for the same thing, and the worst one is 'toxic masculinity.' Nice try.
so good!! my partner told me he felt insane when he felt he could only react to negative experiences with anger ;-; we're working on talking about our spiney hedgehogs instead of throwing them at one another ♥︎
i react with anger more often than i should >:(
Keep working on the talking thing ....and how are the hedge hogs?
Based on the characteristics she named off for toxic masculinity that pretty much means all men and some women.
As a guy, and feminist for several years now, I still deal with aspects of toxic masculinity that crop up now and then that I have to unlearn. And that's OK, it's a process.
But it's a shame the phrase has been turned into a snarl word, especially since it's usually the guys most effected by-often also being victims to it-who are the most closed off to learning about it.
Believe me, there are lots of problems you'll want to address by 30. And I'm fucking glad I took the path I did. I (and the people around me) would be *a lot* worse off, especially looking at the path some other dudes in my generation have taken. I look around and I cringe. You don't want to be in that scene. Trust me, that shit's wack.
Neutral Person Because the problems are cause by a set of ideas around what it means to be masculine that are ultimately toxic and dangerous to yourself as well as others. It's a specific phrase with a specific meaning address a specific problem.
@ Christopher A.
Thank you for being one of the few reasonable men in the comment section.
"especially since it's usually the guys most effected by-often also being victims to it-who are the most closed off to learning about it."
Absolutely :) This issue had been addressed by some leftist men's movements like the Men's Liberation but a huge problem with male persons who get bullied a lot for being "not real men" is that they usually become desperate to prove otherwise... and it takes a lot critical thinking to not comply to the hegemony. For many people, getting a little taste of power is better than standing up against their ab-s-rs.
_Because the problems are cause by a set of ideas around what it means to be _*_black Jewish_*_ that are ultimately toxic and dangerous to yourself as well as others. It's a specific phrase with a specific meaning address a specific problem._
Congratulations, you've all just perfectly described the toxic ethnicity of gun crime and gang culture, as well as the toxic semitism that explains wealth acquisition.
'Oh, but that's not the same because herpa dee derpy derp, et cetera,' don't bother.
Your abject lack of personal sovereignty sickens me. How long are you going to stand for people telling you that because you were born male, you're an animal that needs to 'unlearn' things to be considered human? It's one of the vilest, most hateful things I've ever heard, and one day, maybe when some of you have boys of your own, you look down into their big, wide eyes and you hear yourself repeating this garbage to them, you will be as utterly ashamed of yourselves as you should be right here and now.
The Mighty Fiction
When the most popular artistic expression of women consistes of "Two girls, one cup", the hottest female UA-cam channel is "Whitney Wisconsin", continuing uncensored, when RadFems best and brightest call for euthanasia as a way of dealing with dissent.... You needn't GAF of their opinion. Point and catcall. They get excited with that stuff.
Xnoir 7 beat me to it. His entire post was embarrassing.
Nice video and a good explanation for what the term actually means. I have to say though that just based on the wording I really dislike the term(not the meaning behind it) . I think that the word combination "toxic masculinity" itself just implies hostility. I think that is why many people just recoil immediately when they hear it and also why I often see it used more as a slur, then to actually explain behaviour.
I know you didnt invent it, and I know that it's really hard to change a term like this once it is established. But in my opinion wording for terms like this really DOES matter, because they can either promote or stifle conversation.
The way I understand it masculinity refers to certain traits, behaviours, and so on that are typically associated with being male.
While toxic masculinity is a sort of sub-category within this that refers to the traits or behaviours or whatever that exist within the category of masculinity that are also seen as harmful or damaging.
@@rft9776 As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference:
Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html
Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
If anyone is interested in learning in depth about toxic masculinity, check out the documentary The Mask You Live In on Netflix. It reiterates the points Marina mentions in the video but takes time to flesh out the points in a longer format.
The problem isn't masculinity being toxic its society that is toxic. Men feel guilty enough for what women had to go through. If you want to help them change the phrase, to something that validates them and their feelings. Why is toxic masculinity there? What drives it? Men or women shouldn't be blamed for it. It should be called "Societal Male Repression"
Marina, this is an unusually accurate and sympathetic description, and I thank you for it. But in your list of the forces which pressure men to repress their true selves in favor of this false image of masculinity, you conspicuously omit women specifically (as opposed to "the culture", which is of course created by all of us). Women have had the "girls' version" of toxic masculinity training, meaning they've been trained to be attracted to men who suck it up, don't complain, fix things, take control, etc. Many women, while understanding intellectually the need to allow men more space to express themselves fully, and while visualizing that we'd all be happier if that were the norm, nonetheless recoil when it actually happens. We have an admirable image in our brains about how we think sex-related relationships should be, but push come to shove our hearts and guts sometimes have not caught up. I can attest that it's very hurtful to be encouraged to soften up a little, show some vulnerability, then be disparaged by the very woman who asked me to take that chance. It's happened more than once. She doesn't do it purposely, to set me up. She just doesn't know herself as well as she thinks she does. But it creates a negative feedback loop whereby men become less willing to try it.
thank you so much for all the emotional labor you do in these videos Marina. I can only imagine how exhausting it is but your content is wonderfully thought out, incredibly informing, and I think really important. Videos like these you make really accessible with the language you use and I think it will really help all the people who have no idea what toxic masculinity is.
I see this in the concept of machismo within my family and community.
I watched a video about MRA and I see that people who oppose feminism don’t fully understand the concepts within feminism, like toxic masculinity.
MRAs are often intentionally misrepresent definitions in order to manipulate lonely boys into hating women and blaming feminism for all the problems in the world, especially their personal problems. Hate mongering is the strongest building block of MRAs, MGTOWers, antifeminists or incels.
lachusity I agree there are definitely ones who are manipulating their followers.
Not only do a lot of MRAs not understand feminism, they also don't seem to understand the experience of most women. Many MRAs seem to think that life is super easy for women and that women don't face any problems. (To be fair, I suppose there are some feminists who think men don't face any problems too).
PolymorphicPenguin This whole video was a woman not understanding the experience of men or why they do things, not that I blame her for that. Marina seems to assume we are the way we are because we were forced into it when it's mostly just the way we panned out.
No one forced me to not care a lot about my appearance I just never bothered.
No one forced me not to cry in public. I'm just particular with who and when I show my weak side. Doubly so if it's a space where someone can exploit that weakness.
Generally when things don't go my way I don't get mad I get determined and maybe a bit more aggressive. I much prefer a proactive approach to problem-solving. I don't know when I'll be forced to deal with something alone so it's good to be prepared for that. It also means I don't burden anyone else that have their own problems. In some cases I learn enough about the problem I face that I'll have valuable experience to share with people going through the same ordeal.
Certainly it happens that people are forced into roles they don't fit or want to be part of. I completely agree that neither men nor women should be FORCED into a role they clearly don't fit and want no part of. But I refuse to be "fixed" or "cured" of my personality. Especially by people that don't know me or understand my perspective and I'm sure a lot of men agree.
hedberger
im a man and i disagree, you didnt understand what Marina said. its about the message that people tell each other, how there is only one way to be a man and you wont be respected and desired in any other way.
forcing is not what you imagine, its just a repetitive message a strong influence from family and peers that forms the personality
and nobody wants to fix your personality if you dont want to fix it (unless you commit a crime ofc), but you should fix your message you tell others about being a "true" man if it implies cutting off emotions. what she said is that society needs to revise the message it gives regarding gender roles, because its not as helathy as it could be.
in short, the problem is with the message
Thank You! Love you... (your work, view point) I’m seriously happy that we never have to debate. You’d sly the other in a debate. So happy to have came across your channel years back. -peace
Great intro to the topic, Marina! I was imagining losing video for half of an episode 😳
It’d be great to have you dig into the “why” masculinity norms are the way they are in a future video. Would love to hear your take.
I did this short course with a bunch of people and over lunch this girl was talking about how her boyfriend had been too embarrassed for her to see him cry and she didn't understand why he was so upset about her seeing him that way. So she asked the table (all guys except both of us) if they also were that way and if they felt they had to repress their emotions... and they all said similar stuff like 'no I don't think I do, I just don't feel like crying' and 'I naturally don't get that emotional'.....
They weren't lying. They didn't feel like crying but they were in pain and no they were not repressed. I know exactly what they were talking about. From what I understand, it's brain structure but I'm no expert. I only know there are some very real differences between us. But your male friends pain is real and yes they are fully aware of it. As a man I feel pain, I'm human, but my instincts are not to automatically express and give voice to the feelings I hold but to address my feelings and how I came to feel them. This isn't any socialization but a very real instinct in me. I always reflect and asses how I came to my current state and then take an action to improve it. It's automatic in me and I don't even think of it. I don't want to succumb to and be awash in my feelings, that would be and has been when I've made my worst mistakes. This is where the shame of your friend comes from, if I do succumb I cannot and will not be able to act in a healthy way to resolve my issues. I'm out of control and without direction; I'm lost. Even so, I do cry on rare occasions. In private and when appropriate. But this is where his girlfriend can help him to feel better. By listening to his conflicts and helping him resolve them. Not by addressing his feelings, but by respecting his feelings and addressing the issues that generate his pain and helping him find a solution. It's in the actions he will take that he will find inner peace because he is in control of himself again and not the outside world.
Listen in some time to two men discussing a problem that one of them has and you will see it's automatic with us. We don't even think of it; we just help each other find answers and we don't mince over our feelings. We just accept they are real and a reaction to our issues.
Like most men, I don't tend towards emotional expressivity, but expressivity seems to be the only benchmark for health these days. Whereas 40 years ago a man taking action to resolve his issues and ease his pain by setting his life in order was recognized for the healing that it is. Men process emotions differently than women do and this has been denied for too long. So long that people in the psychiatry industry have told me that many now refuse to recognize and support male coping mechanisms as valid forms of healing. Is it any wonder we avoid therapy when we are denied our innate selves?
Another thing to look at is the fact that some women don't find man that cry attractive. So its all good and fine to show your emotion but them when you get rejected for it, it doesn't give you an incentive to do so
I like it when women speak up about the ways society limits and hurts those assigned male and tries to turn us into monsters and bullies us when we're not masculine enough. I know the pain of all that. I know some of the pain I felt was because of being trans but I also know some of the pain I felt was because of toxic masculinity and I still think it is important to encourage men to free themselves from these forces that bully and control them. I've always said that patriarchy hurts men too.
It's so important for feminists to talk about this stuff. Men need to free themselves and be more whole, well rounded people. For their own benefit as well as for the people around them. Thanks for talking about this x
I despise how toxic masculinity fucks with 'boys don't cry' in particular. Crying is a super helpful way to process or understand your emotions; even if it didn't also have immediate tangible phsyical repsonses that help you feel better (which it does), knowing what things make you cry and what things don't allows you to understand more about yourself, how you think about the world and if there's anything in your life you want to change to be better.
+Notorietypulp
So are we saying crying is feminine, then? Or that 'male tears' are different? I am sick to the fillings of this garbage notion that men need to be instructed by women how to process their emotions _like_ women in order to be emotionally healthy. We don't. Masculine men don't give even a shadow of a fuck who wants to tell them when and where they can and can't cry, or who sees them do so. The difference is in the reasons. I last wept at my father's funeral, for example. I suspect some others last cried at the season finale for '13 Reasons Why.'
Suddenly from 2:43 this video felt like a *Real Video Essay*
ocean dove hahaha
Needs instrumental hip-hop and block quotes of Nietzsche
3 quarters of this are cultural and have nothing to do with masculinity. But in any case society forms social carrots and sticks in order to promote traits that are beneficial to that society. And in most cases beneficial to the individual as well. For example displaying emotions in public could easily lead to abuse as people might take advantage of your emotional vulnerability, not to mention that stranger on the street is not your therapist and not obligated to deal with your emotions. All of it is just common sense and the fact that you attack it makes me think that you simply want to make man vulnerable and weak. Also in overwhelming majority of cases when feminists use this term they do it with expressed intent to silence, bully, shame and degrade man. So you can repeat same talking points as much as you want, but majority of people see thought the bullshit.
Huh? Where is she saying that she wants you to vent to strangers or start crying in the street? NOBODY should be doing that. And men are indeed vulnerable and weak sometimes, just like women are because men are human beings who can't always be strong and that's okay. Trying to end a system that limits the emotional depths men are able to express without being shamed is not really silencing. At all.
Hmm? If you as man were to express your feelings in private to a loved one or a therapist how can society possible attack you for that if you do it in private, unless that person betrays your trust?
This was really good :) Thank you! By the way are you going to be at VidCon this summer?
Brighton he can’t. he’s a soy boy
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference:
Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html
Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Aggression isn't always a negative trait. Aggression can be very beneficial for first responders who need to set aside their sense of self preservation to get other people out of a dangerous situation (particular if a violent individual is involved). Aggression is also necessary for healthy competition.
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference:
Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html
Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
There is a time and place to be aggressive, you don't want to be a push over either, being handy is a great because it saves money, its ok to cry and there is nothing wrong with showing your emotions but don't over do it because other people have their own problems too and can't always be your emotional outlet, if you don't feel good then go see a doctor, be respectful of others, and don't confuse being a man or masculinity with being an asshole, not all men are assholes and not all assholes are men, live and let live, follow the golden rule and remember your rights end where mine begin and vice versa... etc etc, this is all common sense.
And yes I AM A MAN, not because anyone told me that I am, but because I SAY AND KNOW THAT I AM.
The point of parents (sometimes) telling their children to "be strong, don't cry" isn't to hide their emotions but to learn to deal with it and get over it, because little children don't always cry because they are sad but to attract the attention of their parent.They cry for example if they want an ice cream but can't have it. It's part of the growing up process to not cry about every little triviality. It's not to hide your emotions but to regulate them. Not every emotion is valid. Spoiled, selfish brats who cry because they didn't get a ferrari for their birthday are annoying. But yes, it shouldn't be gendered. Some parents treat their daughters as "their little princess" who get everything they want and spoil them thereby, whereby the sons are supposed to be humble. Spoiled girls are just as annoying as spoiled boys. I think that all virtues and vices are gender neutral. It's just as good for a man to be strong, brave and courageous as for a woman.It's just as bad for a man to be selfish and egocentric as for a woman. It's just as good for a man to be empathetic and compassionate as for a woman. It's just as good or a woman to be mechaniically, pragmatically talented as for a man. etc.
"Toxic masculinity" as well as "toxic feminity" is when a character trait that is actually bad, like being eog-centric or dependent and helpless is made into some sort of virtue for one gender but not the other or when a charater quality that is actually good, like being courageous is made into something bad when exhibited by one gender but not the other.
I really love your recovery with the corrupted footage. A+ video.
Just adding to what you said, as well as being socially punished for feminine behaviour, men are also socially rewarded for abusive behaviour. Everything from "locker room talk" to the Stubenville rape case. Rape culture and toxic masculinity are closely related, especially in cases where men brag sexual assault. Heck, doing so can make you president.
What about the underage girls backstage in changerooms at beauty pagaents that he'd just walk through, specifically so he could stare at underage girls in various states of undress? Did they "invite" him into their changeroom? Or were they "asking for it" by being contestants in the first place? Do you really want to go there?
It actually happened, he bragged about it, and please don't change the subject. I know it's a great trick. but I won't take your bait.
The old bait and switch of changing the subject. And YES, he was caught on video, talking about how wonderful it was to be able to go backstge, and watch the young girls get dressed, because he owned the beauty pagaent. That clip simply got largely drowned out by all the rest of the awfulness in that overall awful election. But I assure you, I saw it on the BBC, and was horrified that Americans would even allow that thing into politics.
+neuralmute
Your naked hypocrisy sickens me. The other candidate in that election was a serial enabler who silenced the women her husband _rrrrrRAPED,_ and you people have the iron-clad _nerve_ to climb up on your three-legged high horse over a couple of off-color jokes. Un. F*@king. Believable.
Danni Jaeger let's not forget Duke La Crosse rape! Billboards shaming the bastards, 88 professors signing the petition, suspension of the athletic event, loss of reputation...
Oh, yeah. It turned out, the Rape didn't happen. Lying without consequences or accountability. Toxic Femininity.
Well that's very interesting. The stuff about emotions and how you're not allowed to react to things negatively. On one hand everyone surely experiences bad stuff and a lot of it, and repressing it surely makes it worse, but on the other hand... Everyone has met that person, who's just a ray of genuine sunshine and makes people around them feel better. And even though they have a regular (or sometimes even bigger) amount of bad stuff in their lives, it just can't shake them. They're still their wonderful and sunshiny selves. What I'm getting at here is that toxic opinions (don't whine, be strong, fix cars) sort of come from a good place even though are completely impractical? And when they're addressed I think it's important to mention this. The message of "you should try to do better" should not get lost behind "it's ok to fail", because both are equally true.
Thanks for this video. I've been saying for a while that 'the patriarchy is a double-edged sword', and it's good to see it talked about. Homophobia, transphobia, the treatment of male victims of IPV and rape (particularly where the attacker was a woman) -- it all links back to toxic masculinity. Other men should want to do something about this, even if it's just for themselves.
many women are homophobic and transphobic too, it has no link to any form of masculinity.
You have to admit feminism has some part to play in the treatment of male victims of female on male abuse, they constantly push the men bad women good narrative in the media.
@@Ash-gtr32 As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference:
Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html
Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
I am actively seeking out feminists to understand what you mean by toxic masculinity, because my understanding is that feminists believe toxic masculinity exists but toxic femininity does not exist. This seems odd to me, and my gut leads me to believe the phrase itself is anti-male if it doesn't go for both genders.
After watching this video, it seems like you are describing toxic masculinity as society telling men how to be manly, basically be overly tough, not girly, have manly hobbies, suppress emotions, etc.
So why is there no toxic femininity? Wouldn't toxic femininity be society telling women how to be women?
I like most of this video. I don't like the term toxic masculinity because it seems to conflate masculinity with toxicity. I know in fact that'll not what is trying to be said, but it gets people ready for someone to attack them like if i wanted to talk about common negative behavioral trends in women, the word toxic femininity might make you feel like you're going to be seeing someone attack women for being feminine. I personally think that the core of masculinity is about protecting and providing for those you care about. I'm not saying always physically defending or providing financial support as the traditional gender roles say. As a gay man who usually takes a more (as society calls it) dominant role in relationships, but my boyfriends provide me with so much and protect me from so much. While I'm usually more capable of defending myself and providing financially, my boyfriends help me cope with my depression and anxiety. They provide me with their care and affection and support when i don't know how to do that on my own. They protect me from bottling all my problems and stress. I think that these traits are so masculine and so amazing, even though that caring supportive attitude emotionally is mocked in boys and men. I would like to clarify that in this statement I'm not trying to say that men are masculine and women are feminine exclusively, I'm not trying to gender anything. We all sgare a balance of masculine and feminine traits, just men tend towards the higher masculinity side and women tend towards the higher femininity side on MOST instances. But i love y'all masc girls and fem boys, y'all awesome. Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
Neither masculinity or femininity is toxic but modern feminism sure is
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference:
Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html
Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Modern/ feminism is the only thing which is not toxic actually... Men calling it toxic actually proves the feminist point that toxic masculinity does exist and rampant
@@barnaliadhikary9421 no you just proved you are illogical and think emotionally. If someone disagreeing with you “proves your point” is your argument than you stand on emotion not logic and therefore have no argument. When you cry your right because you say so and your a feminist and cannot be criticized or be wrong, you prove your immaturity.
@@barnaliadhikary9421 modern feminism is so toxic and pervasive its so sad
I can't stand toxic people of men&women in general
Also fun fact the term toxic masculinity was coined by an mra
As someone who was assigned male, my experience of not knowing basic household cleaning or cooking for myself just hurt me. Even when i was presenting male and was in a relationship with a woman, i had plenty of situations where she wasn't able to cook etc and i had to help. X( people get sick, etc why not teach all basic life skills to all genders? Makes more sense.
artemismeow I'm about to graduate with my bachelor's in Nutrition and men not being able to cook is a huggggeeee problem. Home prepared are generally healthier than ones bought out but it's difficult with men who either can't or have an aversion to cooking.
It's toxic behaviors, not a matter of masculine or feminine. While parts are more culturally designated to a specific gender than others they are parts of a whole none the less that exist to both so addressing it in gender-neutral terms makes better sense than separating aspects to specific groups since it doesn't dichotomize the matter to the same extent. When it's gender-neutral it's easier to get people to empathize with others and come to an introspective understanding of the elements of themselves that are toxic and deal with them. When someone is too occupied with defending themselves from what they feel as a gendered attack the toxic behaviors that are trying to be addressed become a darker part of the shadow and end up manifesting themselves in far more destructive ways.
I'm looking for the studies on this topic that show some psychometrics for toxic masculinity, but you have provided none,. Can you help?
I was surprised that you were so balanced in your views. I'm seeing genuine compassion for men, so you have my appreciation and respect.
Thank you for recognizing that men are human, and that it makes sense that if they are oppressed by the pressures on them, it would do psychological harm.
The term "toxic masculinity" has been coined by, and survives due to feminists using it. So talk to your fellow feminists and tell them the term is stupid. Otherwise, you're keeping the stigma alive. And while the feminists' position is that testosterone, and the drive to be alpha, fuels selfish behavior, there's solid research showing that the more alpha-males, and those with high testosterone are more likely to be generous and put themselves at risk for their families and tribes.
Re. pressure on men to be strong, and not show weakness and emotion. A lot of this comes from women. In my life, I've had women try to shame and box me in far more than men and boys.
Re. violence: the gap between women and men committing isn't as great as we're led to believe. In hetero couples, women instigate violence 70-80% of the time. Men are much more likely to commit violence against other men. The most violent couples are lesbians, followed by heteros, and lastly, gay men.
Another example of feminism being man-hating: the primary enemy of feminism is patriarchy. Yet, the average dude doesn't have much power, and has the same struggles as women in his socio-economic class, except that he has gets less support, less empathy, and is more likely to be isolated and excluded. The patriarchy should be called the ruling class. Women's role in keeping the ruling class alive is huge! Women are selectors, and men do a lot of what they do to earn female companionship. Men's loneliness and needs around companionship, belonging, intimacy and sex drive a lot of their behavior -- and it's easy to see that fame, wealth and power attracts women.
Furthermore, while men are visible in the ascension to power, women marry it. Women have the life hack of being able to attract a powerful man. Thus, you have the poor schmuck who puts in thousands of hours to attain a position, and women could do the work themselves to get there, but they have the additional life hack of knowing that with some make up, the right clothes, they can attract their way into that lifestyle. And when the get the divorce, they'll get to keep a lot of those unearned assets.
Men face a lot of exclusion, rejection, and isolation.
In summary: you're doing a good job. Feminism, no so much.
The term "toxic masculinity" never bothered me because I always thought of it like a nutrient toxicity. Vitamins like A, E, D, and K have known toxicities if overconsumed but that doesn't mean they are bad, they are actually necessary.
someone lastname even water can be toxic in sufficient quantity if you want to add to that metaphor.
Masculinity can be both a blessing and a curse.
Nobody thinks men shouldn't ever cry, but men have an obligation to be strong, and sometimes that means not crying over every little inconvenience.
That obligation is enjoyed and imposed mostly by men only...not women or feminism... But PATRIARCHY is the demon to men
So, feminine and masculine character traits are basically genderless because they’re exhibited by both men and women (and also by non-binary people). Is there even a need to define them as masculine or feminine?
(*screaming* What makes people comfortably ID as men or women? Appearance? Behavior? But non of these things are universal!*screaming intensifies*)
Даша Горохова yeah, that’s what marina’s actually promoting. The whole idea is mainly that the society genders things as masculine or feminine, not that certain traits are “for” women or men.
(people’s identities are basically just things within. There are “feminine” trans men and “masculine” trans women, it just depends on how they feel inside.)
Good stuff. And this connects so much to incels (incels means involuntarily celibate, and refers to a group of white, cis, hetero men who haven't experienced as much sex, dating, etc. as they would like, and alas, it's not men just wanting to find someone to truly connect with, nope, it's guys who think this is all women's fault and they use that to be really awful and violent towards them. Think Elliot Rodgers, and more recently, the guy in Toronto who ran a van into a bunch of people) and how they tie their masculinity to misogyny and feeling entitled to women's bodies. It's terrible.
Elliot Rodgers was mixed race Asian, idiot.
starpasta
Such bigotry! Black, Latino, Asian lads with MS, Cerebral palsey, wheelchair bound men, (car accident, CVA, etc) autists, etc, are involuntarily celebate. It is merely fashionable to denigrate white, het, cis males. This compartmentalizing of which racial bigotry to express without fear of any accountability or consequences is most assuredly a "Toxic Femininity" issue.
Your racist
I think this only applies to certain elements of traditional masculinity. Couldnt we just tweak it instead of getting rid of it entirely (Not that you've proposed that, but ive seen plenty who have.)
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference:
Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html
Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
I think toxic masculinity is the most toxic to men. No one should be forced to live by other people's expectations.
Violence is not a bad neither any virtue or attribute it's how you use it.For example being dishonest is considered bad virtue but if you lie to save your life it becomes a good virtue all "The good or bad virtue is based on the application".Men need to be violent but sensible enough to make decision when to be violent and when to be not.
To reduce people and their preferred traits to a negative label is objectification, stigmatizing and sexism rolled into one. Let people be what their preferred choice. To persist in this can be condescending and very your-pov-centric preachy. And overly reductionistic as well.
Love you Marina. Keep making these type of videos, no matter how many morons with fake avatars of deceased warlords flood your comment section.
Masculinity is a virtue. It cannot be toxic, because virtue is the opposite of toxicity.
For anyone needing a more in-depth look at toxic masculinity, just watch fight club
R Antares for the most part a lot of people who despise the term toxic masculinity seem to have misunderstood the movie. I think the message was too subtle.
Avrysatos They should definitely read the book, where it's clear that the aim of fight club and project mayhem is to 'heal' men who don't feel masculine enough in today's society by... taking their aggression out on other people, breaking them down until they have nothing and no one. And here it's especially clear what causes it all -- living in a society where the only place a man can go for emotional support and comfort is a cancer support group. They should see a warning in the story, but they come out wanting to be Tyler Durden because his violent 'if I can't have the world no one can' message supports what they've been told all along. It's cognitive bias all the way through.
+r antares
the point of the book/movie was to hit rock bottom and to remove the desire for worldly possessions...the first step to doing that was to rid the body of its fear of being hurt through physical pain...its like u just watched/read the book and didnt even bother to digest the message of the author
Funny, I thought that movie was all about Antifa.
!D
There's a time and a place to cry is all we mean.
Masculinity as set of traditional values and ideals revolves a lot around survival traits required for a man to protect himself and his family, to forge alliances and be valued among allies, and avoid needless enemies in a world where he must largely be self-sufficient (no one will come to his rescue).
Being the "bigger man" is important to avoid unnecessary conflicts, for example. That not only protects the man from being hurt but it protects others from being hurt by the man needlessly.
Being confident but not egotistical is important since an inflated ego is easily bruised and can, once again, need to unnecessary and possibly violent conflict.
Being courageous is important because not everyone can afford to be afraid to walk the streets at night. Someone has to be strong and brave, male or female, to put the others following them at ease.
Being true to your word is important, especially as a leader, so that you can inspire loyalty (as opposed to demanding it or instilling it through fear) and be valued as a dependable member of your community.
Communicating directly and openly with courage is important because it leads to conflict resolution. Back-stabbing and gossiping and manipulation can escalate and spread the conflict to a point of bringing in people to take sides who weren't even involved in the conflict in the first place.
Avoiding grudges and being willing to forgive and, once more, be the bigger man is important to avoid creating lifelong enemies. Again it's a useful type of self-discipline to promote alliances and resolve needless conflicts.
Protecting and providing for your family might be outdated but only in the sense that males should exclusively do this. It's a good trait for both mothers and fathers to have. In that case, the man no longer needs to be the only dependable one to, say, guide his family to safety during a time of crisis. Both the mother and father could be strong and brave in those moments if this traditionally masculine ideal was embraced by both sexes. After all, we have our share of single mothers, and they'll need to be as strong and as brave as the traditional father figure if they want their children to grow up to be strong and self-sufficient, e.g.
Perhaps if women could embrace some of these masculine traits, we could do away with the expression, "Protect the women and children!" Instead we'd just say, "Protect the children!" Males and females would both be brought up in a way where they can perfectly fend for themselves and work together to guide those who cannot to safety. Yet I fear we're steering society towards an emasculated type where we might have to instead shout, "Protect the men, women, and children!" only to find no volunteers.
I can keep going but these traits were important to steer men away from misbehavior of a kind that would lead to needless conflict and possibly violence. A man is perfectly capable of being a protector or a predator or a victim. Traditional masculine ideals were important to steer men towards the noble protector and away from the cowardly predator or victim.
Most importantly, they were important values for anyone (traditionally men only, now both men and women) to be able to navigate the harsh world as is. The reason fathers didn't coddle bully victims and instead lent them a firm but gentle hand, encouraged them to stand strong and proud, and wipe away any tears was to teach them how to protect themselves from any bullies in the future. The maternal approach of expressing emotional outrage and contacting authorities might have saved the child from one bully in school at best, but it wouldn't have taught the child how to protect himself/herself for the rest of his/her life. That approach would create a dependent type of person always seeking others to come to his/her rescue which females might still be able to rely on to a great degree but males cannot.
What people label as "toxic masculinity" seems more like a failing of people to be masculine than anything else. Someone with anger issues, for example, is far from, say, the ideal, thick-skinned hero. That'd be closer to a trait possessed the by archetypal villain or antihero.
Literally none of what you said applies to the real world. You're not hunting a fucking mammoth anymore for sustenance, you're sitting next to Cheryl in accounting to earn money to go to a grocery store to buy food.
And Cheryl probably walks the streets at night afraid unless she is fairly brave or is in the company of someone who is. When women want to deem air conditioning sexist and make catcalling a criminal action, obviously they lack these strengths which could help them navigate the real world without the protection of men from, say, bad men or air conditioners (pro tip: some extra clothing can keep people warm). These values aren't to fend off mammoths. Their primary purpose is to prevent daily conflicts resulting from, say, bullies and assholes, or would you like to claim that assholes and bullies no longer exist? Besides that, if Cheryl could adopt some of these values, she might be promoted to a leader at which point she wouldn't have to worry as much about living paycheck to paycheck just to pay for groceries.
Take body positivity as an example. Body positivity incorporated fat acceptance which wants to make being obese acceptable and "healthy" to the point of deeming medical advice a form of discrimination. That's extremely "feminine" in the sense of being completely absent of accountability. The "masculine" path is to take accountability for your own actions meaning accounting for the idea that having 30+% bodyfat is, at the very least, unhealthy. There's a whole lot of daily practicality to masculinity -- to toughen people up against bullies, to make people accountable for their own actions, to make people realize what they're truly good at instead of being awarded participation trophies solely effort absent results. It's what helps scientists and engineers publish papers absent of emotional bias.
The "feminine" path is raising a delusional generation of obese people with dreams misaligned with their actual talents -- the analogical obese American Idol contestant who quits his/her job only to embarrass themselves on stage while turning out to be completely tone deaf and incapable of dancing, only to argue with the judges that they're wrong, punch someone who tries to interview them after, and then break down sobbing. It's making them afraid of just about everything in a world completely absent of mammoths while thinking something has to be wrong with the world, not themselves, if things don't always work out their way. It's turning men into womanizers who abandon their children. It's giving minorities a victimhood complex thinking they can't possibly succeed no matter how hard they try, only to give up trying at all and basically seal their fate. We're desperately in need of some of these traditionally "masculine" values -- both men and women alike.
"Toxic masculinity" is the absence of these values. It's what you get when you get a being filled with testosterone minus the values that steer him towards a noble, peacekeeping path -- an aggressive, emotional bully. Perhaps a lot of human history was at fault in terms of its exclusion of women from certain parts of society. But it wasn't at fault in terms of steering men away from constantly getting into brawls or taking out their frustrations on defenseless people as a result of being a thin-skinned narcissist with an easily-bruised ego, e.g. It wasn't at fault of building hopelessly ambitious dreams in people who cannot handle failure and can't pick themselves up once their dreams come crumbling down.
And your comment illustrates a fundamental disconnect I see between men and women, because if you're assuming these values were primarily for defending against mammoths, there's a serious level of miscommunication between the sexes. We don't need a world full of woolly mammoths to find it extremely valuable to have men (not to mention women) around who are accountable, honest, reliable, use their strengths to protect rather than oppress the weak, deescalate conflicts and avoid needless conflicts, will never abandon their family, avoid holding grudges, and are always willing to let things slide in favoring of being the bigger man (or bigger person). If you think these values aren't practical anymore in our daily interactions, then you're a lot more sheltered than I ever imagined or perhaps just very young. For example, family values aren't something you tend to appreciate until you're older since it requires a realization that the main way "your people" (whatever you define this as -- your immediate loved ones, your lineage, your community, etc) can climb up the economic ladder generally requires more than one generation. The whole point of "family values", albeit sounding very backwards and conservative, is to leave our children with a hope of a better future than what we face in the present.
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference:
Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html
Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Thanks for this. I've never heard the term explained this clearly.
Think I'd have to say that I enjoyed watching your video - although I DO disagree with a few things. Such as it's good to cry and show emotion and let it all out but there's definitely a time we need to be stoic and not show emotion. Like if I just cried and was all emotional over my life's mess ups, all the time, and there has been many, I'd never make any progress. Sometimes jamming that stiff upper lip is all we can do when we're in a turd ocean.
Also I get that gender is a dying concept and that both men and women have masculine and feminine traits. I was raised by my mother and learned relational aggression, which could be associated with Toxic Femininity. Like there's good and bad in both genders, it's about how you apply them to your life in a positive or negative way, no?
You are the type of feminist that the world needs but I don't think deserves
I remember my high school gym teacher told him his father told him to never cry. And he said that even when he died he never cried. It sounded like he was crying. Crying for help.
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference:
Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html
Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
People should also talk about "toxic feminisity.."
I am gay, and I agree with toxic masculinity being shit.
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference:
Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html
Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Are you familiar with the Proud Boys movement/group? We watched a video about them in one of my courses when discussing/dealing with toxic masculinity topics. I think one man said “they[feminists] want men to stop being men” and I literally shouted at the screen. I get baffled that so many people still don’t understand that toxic masculinity theory differs from the whole “hating men and everything masculine!1!!1”
Yeah, you love the sinner, hate the sin, we get it.
0:40 Don't feel bad, Marina. I've been trying to tell people that toxic blackness doesn't mean black people are inherently bad or toxic in any way, just that their socio-cultural norms train them to act in undesirable ways.
What? Why are you all looking at me like that?
Hey, Marina! Thanks for another great video. I recently had a discussion with my friend about what defines masculinity and we had a difficult time identifying masculine traits. The traits you listed for both toxic masculinity and non-toxic masculinity helped clear that up for me. When put into a nice little video like this, I feel kind of silly not recognizing masculine traits but I’m sure I’m not the only person who fails to do this at times. Btw, I really liked how you supplemented your lack of footage with the 50s stock footage of white dudes, a great editing move if I might say so :)
I thought toxic masculinity was what happened to me after I fell into that vat of chemicals. Took 5 issues to stop me.
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference:
Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html
Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Gotta agree I really hate that term 'toxic masculinity.' I hear so many feminists go 'so many people misunderstand this term!' Me: Yeah, no kidding. I just don't understand how they managed to shot themselves in the foot with that term. Like if it was 'macho bullshit' i bet at least a few people wouldn't misunderstand it.
Next up: androcentists (or whatever you call them)
discuss from their POV to what extent tigers are evil.
The way that I best understand toxic masculinity is that it is the elements of masculinity that are toxic to men. It's the rigid socialization that requires men and those AMAB to painfully excise very human parts of themselves to fit a mold - and that pain, both consciously and unconsciously, plays out in every aspect of our society in ways that are harmful to all of us.
Caitlin Moore
Yes... it's an aspect of patriarchy that harms men in a way that they are both perpetrators and victims of such norms...
They could have in the same way they could have learned it from an abusive father but they would be outliers while most people in life still consume the traditional view of masculinity which informs who they become later in life.
You're talking about these things as if men like this are outliers, caused by something that falls within the realm of what society currently calls abuse. This is the wrong perspective. Toxic masculinity is common and typical. It is insidious and pervasive. It is reinforced by most people. While it could be argued that toxic masculinity is a form of abuse, it isn't currently recognized as such in the eyes of the general public (obviously.) It is most certainly true that emotional neglect is a form of abuse, and bullying and violence play a significant role in enforcing conformation. However, framing this as something a boy could "get" from being abused by a parent isn't getting the point.
Caitlin Logerwell you don't understand how men's heads work. We don't excise parts of humanity. We control them. Emotions are no use when sh*t needs to be done and can more often be a distraction and cause mistakes. There's a time and a place for things.
Considering what's harmful, add toxic femininity to the list. Who cares if men have issues? The women are more important. For example the so-called wage gap is apparently more important than men getting abused by their partners. Guess which one gets more coverage?
Women's problems always come first in society and I don't see feminism taking issue with that aspect on people's lives.
And then people like you turn around and say if only men didn't act like men, as if that is somehow a solution.
So much fucking this!!!
I've seen women be so selfish that they outright laugh and mock men that have either almost committed suicide or been abused by a mother, the sheer irony in this is the fact that the majority of these same women would be the ones saying that 'women are marginalised and oppressed'.
The only problem I have with 'toxic masculinity' as a descriptor is that it implies these traits exist on the fringes of male behaviour when a lot of it is quite normalised. It's always shit to hear stories from my girl friends getting groped or straight up manhandled when they go out on weekends, or how quickly and eagerly my brothers escalate arguments to the point of almost hitting each other. All of that confrontational, prideful, macho behaviour permeates a lot of my interactions with other dudes, and while sometimes its fine, it's all starting to blur into this giant masculine mush of dickheads who can't handle healthy, emotional relationships.
When I think of toxic masculinity, I think of behavior that is very normalized but has proven to be counterproductive or straight up harmful. I don't often see it used to describe a fringe phenomenon.
Maybe it's just my perspective, but whenever I see these debates about masculinity people are quick to jump to its defence by claiming that "xyz behaviour is actually toxic masculinity" because "not all men are like that" or whatever. It's a way to protect masculinity by saying there's a "good" version that should be upheld and maintained. I definitely think your definition is more productive tho.
This is all pretty interesting, I am Bi Partisan, but I do support Trump. However it is a necessity to hear both sides of an argument before making a call. It’s so hard because I have so many questions, yet no friends who are Feminist or Liberals. Grrrrr
The real focus should be toxic behavior, not toxic masculinity, because If that is the case then toxic femininity also exists.
I agree with the fact of what your talking about but you also got to look at that this is basic biology and social reference. In the terms of men being strong, not being to cry that’s kinda the system of men having to protect the family. I do agree with how we shouldn’t format into that but as I said it’s biology. Like me, I’m a very emotional guy but I do agree that I need to learn how to overcome these emotions. I do believe you are a more bare-able feminist which I thank. I believe you should do more research and instead of talking about this, give a better solution to these problems.
I’m not toxic and I’m masculine and I’m very masculine lol
Cool! Did you watch the video? I never said masculinity was inherently toxic and I go out of my way to challenge that idea.
@@marinashutup No, you just support that toxic behaviors are masculine. @4:24
@@marinashutup As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference:
Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html
Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
I think it's unfortunate that when feminism talks about problematic aspects of oppressive gender structures with regards to men it's called "toxic masculinity" and when doing the same for women the terms sexism is more often used (I guess "feminine mystique" is used as well).
It's unfortunate because at the end of the day people _do_ pre-judge words based on what they sound like, and "toxic masculinity" makes it sound like men are the problem (in an essentialist way) and not the culture that shape them.
I don't have any solutions myself, but it is my hope that we could create terms that are more self-explanatory. A term that works in an academic might not work that well outside that context in mainstream discussions.
If you want to focus on men’s issues talk to MRA’s. They’re not out to get you. Gender roles are important as Jordan Peterson said. Some guys don’t follow the gender roles. That’s okay! You don’t have to call it toxic masculinity when a man acts aggressive or even commits crime. Think regarding the individual, not men as a collective.
As ironic as it sounds, I find it problematic to call all of these male issues under the term toxic masculinity. Masculinity is important to preserve the nuclear family. If you want to reduce crime and mental health issues, encourage the nuclear family model among youth because the importance of fathers is significant. If you read this Marina, I thank you for listening to a non hostile “opposing opinion”. We may disagree on many things but that should not stop discussion. 👍🏿
It's not about the individual, it's about the collective. One person cannot change an entire system, nor is one person responsible for it.
If you think MRAs are actually more interested in men's issues than in hate for feminism, show me some actual, concrete good that they have done for men in the last year. What have these groups contributed to men's health or workplace safety? Have they done the grassroots fundraising to open new research into prostate or testicular cancer? Have they opened any new shelters anywhere for abused men? Have they made an innitiative to teach boys that it's okay to cry, and that they can be into dance or cooking if they want, instead of sports? This sort of stuff is exactly how the early feminists got us women to where we are today, with actual funding for healthcare, domestic abuse shelters, and women in every profession. We did it with bake sales, raffles, and small local marches in the beginning. We paid from our own pockets. We wrote books for our daughters, and taught by example. Nobody just "gave" us anything until we were already paying our own way, and making too much noise to ignore. Meanwhile all I've noticed coming from the men's right's types in the news have been a few murders by angry extremists. Tell me what kind of GOOD things you've been doing for men, that doesn't include harming women, without ripping feminism or saying "but women!" once. I dare you.
GAMINEX
Nice to see you draw parallel with Peterson and mra's, lol.
I know mens rights activists, real ones, that don't associate themselves with mra's and do support feminists.
Find those, and drop Peterson, he's lousy psychologist, even (that's my field, I can tell) not to mention everything else, he keeps talking like an expert about things he knows nothing about.
Neutral Person
Projecting much?
"boys don't cry"
yea i have heard it all my life , it made me strong enough to filter people's thoughts and comments about me to select whats good for me and what not.
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference:
Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html
Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Well shoot, I need to learn that technique myself then. Throughout these years I’ve been hearing nothing but women talk shit about men or me as a male, so I gotta ask how you do it, because sure I can sit there in silence and pretend as if it doesn’t bother me like I usually do, but it still does bother me.
I guess my issue is that this is a gender-role problem, not specifically a masculine problem. It can be called "toxic femininity" if you just talk about the negative roles assigned to women. Women have to repress their anger, they cant be assertive, they have to be docile, but they also can be manipulative, in other words they have to be "lady like". We don't call that toxic femininity though.. So why not call it a toxic gender roles? When you call it toxic masculinity, not only does it feel like its targeting only guys, but by the nature of its name, it has a the propensity to be used incorrectly.
You are definitely not a feminist or what I was expecting at all....great content...but with that said,why give any of it a name or role or anything at all...just be you....I'm a super masculine man (veteran,welder,hunt fish,fix and race cars,fight,so on etc) but I'm confident and comfortable enough to care less what people think of me when it comes to my feelings....the main thing i cant stanf today is people trying to change how society works in a general sense...being a man isn't toxic and nor is being a woman.either way I'm glad I listened to what you had to say before posting a comment,that would have been a mistake bc ur pretty smart and cute plus I agree in a sense with some subjects you spoke on....not sure if I'll sub but I'll give a like..I swear to God if somebody starts shit bc I called her cute..dont objectify her blah blah...
i never grasped nor have i yet done so why cooking is not seen as something males can do, you work with knives, and sometimes fire, you are transforming basic stuff into something great, sounds like something men should want to do, but hey i have just been in the kitchen since before i was a year old so i guess i will never become a MAN...
My sister's probably a better mechanic than I am. She's also a registered nurse, so... yeah, they're not really gender traits.
Lol. I actually came to your channel from another more conservative channel ready to dislike your videos, flag them, get triggered etc, and the title almost made me do that until I actually watched it. I've got to say, this was pretty spot on. Good vid.
As someone who is a big fan of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, I absolutely LOVE how there were men crying in both Black Panther and The Avengers Infinity War. They never belittle or make fun of it either, and it's always the strongest characters who end up showing their emotions. Basically pushes the message that even (those depicted as) the *toughest* of men cry and that's okay/totally normal!
What do you make of the notion that most school shooters did not have a biological dad raising them?
Hooray for stock footage saving the day! :D
Great video. I would love to hear your thoughts on Emotional Labor and how this relates.
Emotional labor is basically informing the people in your life that giving a soft crap about them is a chore for which they should be grateful.
I've been a bit jaded lately, but you and contrapoints give me hope for the left. keep fighting the good fight
You should see how men in the middle east treat women.
Damnit you convinced me, I'm a feminist now.. because you just don't approach it form such a generic stereotyped way like all those other brand X feminists explain it.
Thanks for this video, Marina
As an Australian mature normal young man myself born in 1998 from Lakemba, New South Wales, Australia personally have nothing against masculinity because I believe machismo and masculinity are different from each other. Machismo is abusive and toxic & masculinity is about courage & protection for example take firefighters who are brave & tough. Here are two video links below that explains the difference:
Machismo Video: ua-cam.com/video/fjo-hwAKcas/v-deo.html
Masculinity Video: ua-cam.com/video/TJ1NS_lHVok/v-deo.html
Good explainer.
Thank you Marina, this cleared up a lot of misunderstanding for me.
I would say this Men actually talk to other men for a therapist they're are some females understand man but most just hate that the guys so they feel like they don't want to talk to their therapist because of me being told it's all your fault that's kind of thing and female therapist put on it on men men never talk to women that's the only talk to other guys and I trust women therapist
Winged game too strong
Winged Eyeliner Level: Archangel
I pass up all the negative comments on this video, and truly APPRECIATE the consensus of positive comments on what you are speaking on, we understand and glad you brought this to light once more because everyone can benefit from understanding what toxic masculinity is and the harm it will cause. :)
?. Well. I don't know what to say.
Yes! You chose the thumbnail I liked!
What qualities do women value general in a man. as a mate..Women punish emotional weak men.
Ok I do have a question. If there is toxic masculinity doesn't that mean there would toxic femininity. I'd love to see a video about that
I understand the idea of toxic masculinity but I don't like the idea of the name. Like what about toxic femininity? isn't it all just toxic societal gender roles? Both gender roles create toxic aspects. For instance, the number of women who believe it is ok for them to hit a man without any repercussion because "men aren't supposed to hit a woman, period" or "women are weaker" ... believe it or not... it still really hurts to get hit by a female.
That is just one example. I do agree with the idea of stopping toxic gender roles in the upbringing of children, but i think we should not make it a male only problem. A lot of women still believe the men should be the ones who provide, or who are supposed to pay for everything while dating.
I am only cratching the surfice. It is all just food for thought.