one of the best channels on youtube, your knowledge is appreciated. i've always loved doing a R 3 4 5 b7 pentatonic for bombastic and mysterious sounds over a major chord, and i have no idea why the idea of a b5 pentatonic scale never occurred to me. cheers!
First off, awesome guitar--I think the color and the shape look pretty badass. Second, I think you are getting closer to a melodic conception of how to approach this tune. Whenever I look up Inner Urge I seem to be barraged by a master's thesis on Chord Scale Theory. I know someone who actually studied with Joe Henderson (how amazing does that sound), so I can ask him to verify... but I don't think Joe Henderson was thinking Chord Scale Theory or stringing together random pieces of harmony when he wrote "Inner Urge". You mentioned Berklee, so I'll dive in. I think it's frustrating that many people seek to find answers within CST without even digesting the melody of the tune first. I think that's a Berklee thing that I had to unlearn (and I didn't even go to Berklee). I think more secrets could be discovered if we looked at the melody of the tune, how McCoy comped over the tune, and how Joe solo'ed over his own composition. Joe Henderson was, without a doubt, a genius of melodic invention. I think he wrote the wrote and approached the tune with the melody in the forefront. I find it interesting that the melody to "Inner Urge" returns to a "C" note (concert key) quite often. I also find it interesting that McCoy voices many of his chords with a "C" on top. Then, in the solo--Joe plays around the" C" note. Obviously he is addressing the harmony as well and the tune doesn't live in the key of C -- in the traditional sense - maybe the tune revolves around a C tonal area (a combination of C major and C minor) or a pool of notes. What all the CST talk lacks is melodic cohesion. "Inner Urge" is a composition first and foremost, and compositions contain pattern and cohesion. I think finding the cohesion might be more enlightening that applying CST to every chord in the tune. That's why I appreciated your minor 7 flat 5 pentatonic as a sort of glue that binds the improvisation together.
Good points and yes I'm very happy with the guitar. Yes we tend to think about arpeggios, scales and whatnot before we learn the melody. I'm a guilty of that too, maybe not so much anymore. However, I'm not sure Berklee deserves all the blame for that? And yes learning from the recording is the key. All the secrets kan be unlocked from listening and analyzing carefully. Theory is just something we use to explain something after it has happened, right? It would be interesting to look into Joe Hendersons composing process, if there is such a thing. It seems to me like he must have some theoretical concepts, so many of his tunes have specific chord/bass movements. My college teacher (one of them) Pat Labarbera studied with him and he said that he taught him bop scales, go figure.
@@Mikkokosmos I am trying to break out of that guilty habit of learning how to improvise before approaching the tune myself. My friend just emailed back with a very interesting response, but I dunno if it's cool to post in public. I could email it, how do we do this on UA-cam...? to sum up, my friend mentioned aural memory. I wasn't trying to critique or "throw shade" on your video, just to be clear. Just saying that you were hinting at a bigger picture, and I was excited for it to go further. I enjoy your videos and wasn't looking to start a UA-cam fight (whatever that is), but I don't think that came across in my initial post. I was also expressing my frustration with jazz ed in general. There is a lot of focus on scales and arpeggios, but not enough focus on how to use them compositionally in a solo. That reminds me, my friend said that Joe Henderson studied classical composition in college. I've always wondered how classical composition was taught--and if I could have learned more studying classical composition and playing in jazz combos rather than studying full on jazz performance as I did. You strike me as someone who studied composition in your college years, am I right? If so, I would LOVE to see a video on how that influenced your maturation as a jazz musician. We need more videos that put that crossover in focus.
Hey Mikko, thanx for sharing this precious content... have you tried to use that b5 pentatonic on Dom7th? E.g. Fm7b5-pentatonic on G7 or Em7b5-pentatonic on same chord...nice altered sounds...kind regards and stay fit...
Ugh, another Bergonzi book to get. I'm working on Volume III the Jazz Line. For the last 4 months I've been working on Chapters I and II. I've told myself not to move on from those chapters until I can hang in there with the play a long. Do you have any thoughts about this? In the beginning it took me an hour and a half to play the bebop scales in all 12 keys major and minor the way Bergonzi tells you to practice them. I've got it down to 35 minutes but can't quite play with the play a long. This video was great. The Inner Urge Melody is challenging to play. I'll start working on it.
Haha sorry about that 😜 You have to get Pentatonics, it's one of the most important sources of information I think. Yes some people complain that the backing tracks with the books are to fast. You can always slow them down in Transcribe or Amazing Slowdowner (I think it's called) I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Yes it's better to stay with something until you know it well before moving on. There is always the risk of just going through the motions. At the same time you don't wanna get stuck. maybe take a break and practice something completely different and then come back to it?
@@Mikkokosmos thank you for the reply. I figure if its this hard than it's going to make me a much better guitar player. I do practice other things. I'm playing three hours a day but I know I need play more. I will persevere. I'm seeing a light at the end of this long tunnel. I'm practicing the bebop scales in all the positions. I pick a new one everyday. In the middle of the guitar I can do it in 27 minutes. (I'm using my iphone's stop watch. I'm looking at this like I'm training for a marathon ) I want to finish this book "come hell or high water" When this covid thing is over I want to be a different guitar player. Better, hipper, stronger. Out with the old me in with the new. Thanks for the videos and the advice.
The best advice I got when going through Jazz Line is to apply to tunes as soon as possible. The Major and Dominant bebop scales going around the circle of fourths is okay to start just to learn the fingerings but the sooner you can move on to playing over real life chord progressions, especially crossing the barline, the better off you will be! Good luck 😁
@@thunderrosa2258 Thank you Jayden, I've done some of that but it sounds like good advice and it sounds fun. Fun keeps me going. Today I'll apply them to the tunes I'm working on. I've also switched to using the Aebersold play a longs in Volume 3 ii V I. You get two tries per key. This seems to be helping as well. I think your advice is sound. Tunes are the most important application. Cheers
Hi Mikko, although I knew this scale, and practiced it a long time ago never used it. like you are demonstrating right now...I totally agree with 2 notes for one string, even more, while also studying piano a bit more than guitar...It is on both instruments of course about fingering and this fingering what you are using may sound strange but does remind me of Coltranes 3 octaves...because doing this we get 5 over 6 so each octave gets a different fingering and that is very musical for a result merely subconsciouslee.... the other thing is in vertical playing the intervals are the same as the fingers: Minor7 uses strangely enough in a methodic never the 1st finger for the root...but I am driving away What I wanted to add to your story is on a Lydian chord Ebmaj#11 what you showed your on the b5 the minor pentb5 is almost our beloved Alan Holdsworth scale how strange it may sound the augmented chrom..scale(not chrom of getting angry of course...) so the symmetric: A BB#C D# E E# G G# A if we skip or see as a forbidden or avoid note(don't touch the forbidden fruit C# or see it as a leading note to D so as a maj7 that is being leaded to by the C# better to see it as a #13 maybe nothing to do with a minor7 so this scale would sound off of course on the other hand on an Am7b5 a Ebminor penta b5 is a bit off but interesting is That McCoy Tyner uses on a Am7b5 written just a A altered scale so the chord will be substituted in LHand as wll but because of the time this tension is doable if you know musically and dynamically how to present this "Lie" or off sounding tension...it is not a Lie but merely a Paradox that is in Higher level of Logic not "wrong" Alam Holdsworths is prooving u those things too...So what I try to say is that when there is written Am7b5 or Ebmaj#11 an Amin pent b5 is nice when being solution to but before a Ebmin pent b5 is theoretically possible...or even on the b3 or bVi because of minor thirds mediant the same we could say if we play over Am7b5 first C#m7b5pent then Fminor 7b5 and then resolution Am7b5 of course when there i 4 bars minor 7b5 and of course it will not sound that good on all circumstances this way is called in jazz Cyclic Patterns they are even possible in a chromatic way and studying them is teaching your ears theory of the Future...Of course, this letter/mail is for everything that doesn't know this...and not for Mikko because he knows all this that's why he's teaching us....But still wish that this information could be helpful to anyone...the nice thing about the symmetrical scale is that the shapes possible for instance A BB#C D# E E# G G# A: A BC> C# D#E > so this minor 12b3 is almost hunching or winking with its eye towards the theory I tried to describe the Minor is hidden in the major augmented How Nice????? or the shapes: BCC#> GG#A> EbEF> nowadays this is what saxophone players practice also without linking it to something all then just building blocks or melodic cells as they call it......Thank You, Mikko for Teaching Us these important aspects and Great Vocabulary of our Future-playing!!!
Fantastic video, am using these concepts to work on today...please if you get time, check out my improv over “Take the A Train”...any feedback appreciated...been a long time fan/subscriber of your content, keep it up
Thanks!
one of the best channels on youtube, your knowledge is appreciated. i've always loved doing a R 3 4 5 b7 pentatonic for bombastic and mysterious sounds over a major chord, and i have no idea why the idea of a b5 pentatonic scale never occurred to me. cheers!
Great lesson Mikko. There is so much to work on in that one lesson. Very cool sounds. Thanks for sharing that!
Glad you like it. Yup lots of work 🤠
thanks for sharing your hard won knowledge
really amazing lesson......very cool sound.....yeah, tim miller does some fascinating stuff....hi site is definitely worth subscribing to
Jazz forever , thanks man , jazz and more jazz , thanks a lot
Hey bro, thank you so much for sharing this lessons with us, god bless you. 👏🏻👏🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
Thank you
Very interesting I've been wondering about playing min7b5 more..I usually just play arepeggios from locrian. Thanks!
I love books ! I love Arps I I love your lessons !
I love books too 😀👍
Nice playing man! Nice guitar too!
First off, awesome guitar--I think the color and the shape look pretty badass. Second, I think you are getting closer to a melodic conception of how to approach this tune. Whenever I look up Inner Urge I seem to be barraged by a master's thesis on Chord Scale Theory. I know someone who actually studied with Joe Henderson (how amazing does that sound), so I can ask him to verify... but I don't think Joe Henderson was thinking Chord Scale Theory or stringing together random pieces of harmony when he wrote "Inner Urge".
You mentioned Berklee, so I'll dive in. I think it's frustrating that many people seek to find answers within CST without even digesting the melody of the tune first. I think that's a Berklee thing that I had to unlearn (and I didn't even go to Berklee). I think more secrets could be discovered if we looked at the melody of the tune, how McCoy comped over the tune, and how Joe solo'ed over his own composition. Joe Henderson was, without a doubt, a genius of melodic invention. I think he wrote the wrote and approached the tune with the melody in the forefront.
I find it interesting that the melody to "Inner Urge" returns to a "C" note (concert key) quite often. I also find it interesting that McCoy voices many of his chords with a "C" on top. Then, in the solo--Joe plays around the" C" note. Obviously he is addressing the harmony as well and the tune doesn't live in the key of C -- in the traditional sense - maybe the tune revolves around a C tonal area (a combination of C major and C minor) or a pool of notes. What all the CST talk lacks is melodic cohesion. "Inner Urge" is a composition first and foremost, and compositions contain pattern and cohesion. I think finding the cohesion might be more enlightening that applying CST to every chord in the tune. That's why I appreciated your minor 7 flat 5 pentatonic as a sort of glue that binds the improvisation together.
Good points and yes I'm very happy with the guitar. Yes we tend to think about arpeggios, scales and whatnot before we learn the melody. I'm a guilty of that too, maybe not so much anymore. However, I'm not sure Berklee deserves all the blame for that? And yes learning from the recording is the key. All the secrets kan be unlocked from listening and analyzing carefully. Theory is just something we use to explain something after it has happened, right? It would be interesting to look into Joe Hendersons composing process, if there is such a thing. It seems to me like he must have some theoretical concepts, so many of his tunes have specific chord/bass movements. My college teacher (one of them) Pat Labarbera studied with him and he said that he taught him bop scales, go figure.
@@Mikkokosmos I am trying to break out of that guilty habit of learning how to improvise before approaching the tune myself.
My friend just emailed back with a very interesting response, but I dunno if it's cool to post in public. I could email it, how do we do this on UA-cam...? to sum up, my friend mentioned aural memory.
I wasn't trying to critique or "throw shade" on your video, just to be clear. Just saying that you were hinting at a bigger picture, and I was excited for it to go further. I enjoy your videos and wasn't looking to start a UA-cam fight (whatever that is), but I don't think that came across in my initial post. I was also expressing my frustration with jazz ed in general. There is a lot of focus on scales and arpeggios, but not enough focus on how to use them compositionally in a solo.
That reminds me, my friend said that Joe Henderson studied classical composition in college. I've always wondered how classical composition was taught--and if I could have learned more studying classical composition and playing in jazz combos rather than studying full on jazz performance as I did. You strike me as someone who studied composition in your college years, am I right? If so, I would LOVE to see a video on how that influenced your maturation as a jazz musician. We need more videos that put that crossover in focus.
Hey Mikko, thanx for sharing this precious content... have you tried to use that b5 pentatonic on Dom7th? E.g. Fm7b5-pentatonic on G7 or Em7b5-pentatonic on same chord...nice altered sounds...kind regards and stay fit...
Thanks 😃 yes Fminb5 over Galt is great. Eminb5 I'm not sure though 🤔🤔🤔
@@Mikkokosmos to me it sounds good when moving back and forth...
@@wobamusic cool I have to try that 🙂
Ugh, another Bergonzi book to get. I'm working on Volume III the Jazz Line. For the last 4 months I've been working on Chapters I and II. I've told myself not to move on from those chapters until I can hang in there with the play a long. Do you have any thoughts about this? In the beginning it took me an hour and a half to play the bebop scales in all 12 keys major and minor the way Bergonzi tells you to practice them. I've got it down to 35 minutes but can't quite play with the play a long. This video was great. The Inner Urge Melody is challenging to play. I'll start working on it.
Haha sorry about that 😜 You have to get Pentatonics, it's one of the most important sources of information I think. Yes some people complain that the backing tracks with the books are to fast. You can always slow them down in Transcribe or Amazing Slowdowner (I think it's called) I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Yes it's better to stay with something until you know it well before moving on. There is always the risk of just going through the motions. At the same time you don't wanna get stuck. maybe take a break and practice something completely different and then come back to it?
@@Mikkokosmos thank you for the reply. I figure if its this hard than it's going to make me a much better guitar player. I do practice other things. I'm playing three hours a day but I know I need play more. I will persevere. I'm seeing a light at the end of this long tunnel. I'm practicing the bebop scales in all the positions. I pick a new one everyday. In the middle of the guitar I can do it in 27 minutes. (I'm using my iphone's stop watch. I'm looking at this like I'm training for a marathon ) I want to finish this book "come hell or high water" When this covid thing is over I want to be a different guitar player. Better, hipper, stronger. Out with the old me in with the new. Thanks for the videos and the advice.
The best advice I got when going through Jazz Line is to apply to tunes as soon as possible. The Major and Dominant bebop scales going around the circle of fourths is okay to start just to learn the fingerings but the sooner you can move on to playing over real life chord progressions, especially crossing the barline, the better off you will be! Good luck 😁
@@thunderrosa2258 Thank you Jayden, I've done some of that but it sounds like good advice and it sounds fun. Fun keeps me going. Today I'll apply them to the tunes I'm working on. I've also switched to using the Aebersold play a longs in Volume 3 ii V I. You get two tries per key. This seems to be helping as well. I think your advice is sound. Tunes are the most important application. Cheers
Great lesson, very useful and manageable for me. What are you playing through? Amp, reverb effect?
Thanks. I play through a quilter 101 and Boss delay 😃
This is Mode 5 of Kumoi as well.
In Guitar Pro, the scale can be found with names "Pentatonic Minor 7 b5" and "Blues Pentatonic".
Blues Pentatonic? Interesting! I have never heard that :)
Hi Mikko, although I knew this scale, and practiced it a long time ago never used it. like you are demonstrating right now...I totally agree with 2 notes for one string, even more, while also studying piano a bit more than guitar...It is on both instruments of course about fingering and this fingering what you are using may sound strange but does remind me of Coltranes 3 octaves...because doing this we get 5 over 6 so each octave gets a different fingering and that is very musical for a result merely subconsciouslee.... the other thing is in vertical playing the intervals are the same as the fingers: Minor7 uses strangely enough in a methodic never the 1st finger for the root...but I am driving away What I wanted to add to your story is on a Lydian chord Ebmaj#11 what you showed your on the b5 the minor pentb5 is almost our beloved Alan Holdsworth scale how strange it may sound the augmented chrom..scale(not chrom of getting angry of course...) so the symmetric: A BB#C D# E E# G G# A if we skip or see as a forbidden or avoid note(don't touch the forbidden fruit C# or see it as a leading note to D so as a maj7 that is being leaded to by the C# better to see it as a #13 maybe nothing to do with a minor7 so this scale would sound off of course on the other hand on an Am7b5 a Ebminor penta b5 is a bit off but interesting is That McCoy Tyner uses on a Am7b5 written just a A altered scale so the chord will be substituted in LHand as wll but because of the time this tension is doable if you know musically and dynamically how to present this "Lie" or off sounding tension...it is not a Lie but merely a Paradox that is in Higher level of Logic not "wrong" Alam Holdsworths is prooving u those things too...So what I try to say is that when there is written Am7b5 or Ebmaj#11 an Amin pent b5 is nice when being solution to but before a Ebmin pent b5 is theoretically possible...or even on the b3 or bVi because of minor thirds mediant the same we could say if we play over Am7b5 first C#m7b5pent then Fminor 7b5 and then resolution Am7b5 of course when there i 4 bars minor 7b5 and of course it will not sound that good on all circumstances this way is called in jazz Cyclic Patterns they are even possible in a chromatic way and studying them is teaching your ears theory of the Future...Of course, this letter/mail is for everything that doesn't know this...and not for Mikko because he knows all this that's why he's teaching us....But still wish that this information could be helpful to anyone...the nice thing about the symmetrical scale is that the shapes possible for instance A BB#C D# E E# G G# A: A BC> C# D#E > so this minor 12b3 is almost hunching or winking with its eye towards the theory I tried to describe the Minor is hidden in the major augmented How Nice????? or the shapes: BCC#> GG#A> EbEF> nowadays this is what saxophone players practice also without linking it to something all then just building blocks or melodic cells as they call it......Thank You, Mikko for Teaching Us these important aspects and Great Vocabulary of our Future-playing!!!
analysis of Tim Miller string skipping is less random then it looks at the surface:
Then genius Note Skipping:
Am7b5 pentatonic(Tim Miller>>>)
Skip4 skip3 skipRoot
A C (skip D) Eb> GA (skip C) D >Eb G skip (A) C
A>D= 4th >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>G>C=4th!
Then of course next inversion:
Skip b5 4 3(this skip is interesting too)
C D (Eb) G A C (skip D)Eb G A (skip C) D
7 b5 11 makes a G 125NON 3rd chord over /A is skipped
D Eb (G) A C D (Eb) G A C (D) Eb
So here the Root the 7th and the 3rd are skipped so the Shell voicing is skipped
(“Interesting…”)
Eb G (A) C D Eb(G ) A C D (Eb) G A (skip C) D :
this on I think is used in The ending by You: Mikko!
The last on will be
Skipped 3 11 Root(cicrle is round and Complete)
So G A © D Eb G (A) C D Eb (G) A those or more difficult on Piano when you play them Polyphonic, so I think here the Guitar is teaching the Piano some interesting arpggio.also I like this Paterns to be played with slurs I hear it in the Music what's within...
i always thought a minor b5 penta would be my own little invention. hahaha 🥳
I wont tell anyone 🤐
Mikko Hilden if not i‘ll have to deal with the mercyless jazz police 🎸
@@NeilRaouf 😆
Fantastic video, am using these concepts to work on today...please if you get time, check out my improv over “Take the A Train”...any feedback appreciated...been a long time fan/subscriber of your content, keep it up
Cant. hear what you say ( which turns out to be really important!)
That's strange 🤔 I can hear everything fine. Maybe try a different device?
man you are finding your voice...x
Thank you. It's a life long process 😎